»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
jnthn Ah, I see 00:00
Any defaults will be set
r: class Foo { has $.a = 'lol'; submethod BUILD() { say 42; } }; Foo.new.a.say;
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«42␤lol␤»
jnthn Unless you explicitly touch them in your BUILD 00:01
r: class Foo { has $.a = 'lol'; submethod BUILD() { $!a = 'omgz'; } }; Foo.new.a.say;
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«omgz␤»
jnthn r: class Foo { has $.a; submethod BUILD() { } }; Foo.new.a.say; 00:02
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
jnthn You just get that if you never initialize the attribute
bbkr I find this BUILD more user friendly than P5 Moose BUILDARGS+BUILD approach 00:03
perigrin r: class Foo { has Foo $.a; submethod BUILD () }; Foo.new.a.say;
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Missing block␤at /tmp/fjdaMotsxl:1␤------> s Foo { has Foo $.a; submethod BUILD () ⏏}; Foo.new.a.say;␤ expecting any of:␤ scoped declarator␤ constraint␤ postfix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ …
perigrin bah 00:04
r: class Foo { has Foo $.a; submethod BUILD () {} }; Foo.new.a.say;
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«Foo()␤»
timotimo r: class Foo { has $.a; submethod BUILD() { say $.a } }; Foo.new.a.say;
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Virtual call $.a may not be used on partially constructed objects␤at /tmp/FwUvCK26Ov:1␤------> o { has $.a; submethod BUILD() { say $.a⏏ } }; Foo.new.a.say;␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ prefix…
bbkr timotimo: you have to use $!a
timotimo oh, that's the trick?
jnthn Use $!a; $.a is a method call and if you get subclassed then somebody may override it and break your initialization.
perigrin bbkr: BUILDARGS+BUILD really is a hack because we didn't have the right places to hook into things due to Moose happening at Runtime. 00:05
jnthn If you use $!a that can't happen. Even if their subclass has its own $!a.
timotimo that's a good hint, thanks!
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bbkr perigrin: I know. And I don't call it a "bad design" - it is as good as it can be. And BUILDAGRS can give huge boost when you know how to use it. 00:13
perigrin nods. 00:14
bbkr perigrin: For example I have tons of ORM-like objects which I initialize in "Client->new(id=>3)" way. Then I fetch record from database in BUILDARGS and pass-through it to SUPER::BUILDARGS. This way I can have all attributes in Client class as read-only (faster) and it is 40% faster than initializing attributes in BUILD. 00:18
timotimo r: say "a"; map (-> $x { say $x }), ^4; say "b"; 00:20
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«a␤0␤1␤2␤3␤b␤»
timotimo locally, i get only a and b.
and i don't know why. 00:21
if i write "sink" before the map, it does work, however
bbkr timotimo: works for me on HEAD Rakudo built 3 hours ago 00:22
jnthn timotimo: That didn't work in the last Rakudo release, I suspect. This is why we implemented sink context... :) 00:27
timotimo oh, what, this rakudo is old?! 00:31
well, gotta run anyway
and then sleep. good ** perl6 :)
jnthn o/ 00:32
bbkr I would love to see blogpost explaining sink context in nearest future.
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perigrin bbkr: yeah that would do it. 00:35
though I do ro not for speed but because mutability is the devil.
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bbkr This is completely new approach and I assume many users will misunderstand "sink context" because "context" word is strongly associated with "wantarray" behavior in p5. 00:40
TimToady sink context is the same as void context in P5 00:41
wantarray went away because list vs item is lazily determined; sink, however, is eager by definition, so can flow downhill 00:45
(as can eager, with its variants hyper and race) 00:51
japhb_ BTW, I very much like that Perl 6 allows me to specify different levels of "hurry up". I wish I could do that in other contexts ... no pun intended, believe it or not. :-) 00:52
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bbkr TimToady: i think most programmers do not understand void/sink context idea and cannot use it intentionally, so article that will explain it on simple examples would be valuable. 00:56
for example very common p5 warning 'use warnings; "a" ~~ /(a)/; print $1' is misunderstood. most people who googled for it are like "why void context warning? it was not useless smart match after all" 00:59
TimToady eval: use warnings; "a" ~~ /(a)/; print $1 01:00
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TimToady hmm 01:01
ENOBUUBOT
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TimToady anyway, sink/void is used *only* to indicate that some procedural code is to be executed; the "Useless use of" warning is for when you're using immutable value semantics in sink context, which requires mutable semantics in order for whatever it is to have side effects 01:03
since ~~ has side effects, it should not be emitting such a warning
so, a p5 bug
well, arguably a bug, but maybe they're indicating you should use =~ in that situation 01:04
bbkr thanks for explanation :) 01:06
good night perl6
TimToady arguably in p6 ~~ should defer the warning to the rhs somehow
night
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timotimo turns out my rakudo really was from before last star :/ 01:30
but now that i noticed thar, i can do excellent tgings at last!
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raiph TimToady: ping 01:31
phenny: tell TimToady are you aware there's a summary version of the #perl6 log? Might save you a few days... 01:38
phenny raiph: I'll pass that on when TimToady is around.
japhb_ r: say [\] 1..10 01:44
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤You can't backslash that␤at /tmp/slFpVO08KF:1␤------> say [\⏏] 1..10␤ expecting any of:␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix stopper␤ prefix or term␤ prefix or meta-prefix␤»
japhb_ r: say [\+] 1..10
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«1 3 6 10 15 21 28 36 45 55␤»
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jnthn 6guts.wordpress.com/2013/01/10/a-bu...kudo-news/ # blog post 02:05
'night, #perl6
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dalek ecs: e5b8663 | larry++ | S06-routines.pod:
--> as context for code body

Allow definite values and containers on the right side of -->, in order to make a way to declaratively distinguish procedural code from functional without creating more keywords like "proc" or "fun", which doesn't help distinguish methods.
Also allow warning on loops accidentally treated as functional maps due to lack of a return spec.		 02:54
TimToady Note that this is consistent with the change to STD some weeks ago. 02:56
phenny TimToady: 01:37Z <raiph> tell TimToady are you aware there's a summary version of the #perl6 log? Might save you a few days...
TimToady std: sub foo ( --> Nil ) { "I am a useless use of string in sink context" } 02:57
p6eval std a8bc48f: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 44m␤»
TimToady dinner & 02:58
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moritz jnthn: I think that .sink works as expected in bbkr's example 06:19
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moritz once for the nqp::can, once for the actual call 06:19
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moritz we could certainly optimize it with a call-method-if-exists op that only does one find_method 06:20
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FROGGS[mobile] morning 06:43
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tadzik hello 07:02
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sorear hello tadzik 07:06
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FROGGS morning (again) 07:39
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moritz jnthn++ # blog post 08:02
TimToady++ # spec commit
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FROGGS TimToady: do you think it is possible to change STD.pm6 in a way that I can use it to dump the GLOBAL symbols of a single file? 08:23
TimToady: I am trying to do this: github.com/FROGGS/p6-File-Inspector-Namespace 08:24
bbkr good morning perl6
FROGGS TimToady: ... because IMO we need something like this to fulfil the requirements given by S11/versioning, I can describe the problems and the need for it if you want to know 08:25
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FROGGS moritz++ # $socket.read commit 08:34
moritz testing of that commit would be very welcome and helpful 08:35
FROGGS hmmm, that shouldnt be too hard
moritz probably not 08:38
just do a read of 16k, and on the write site, 4 x 4k
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moritz and check if the read actually returned 16k bytes 08:38
FROGGS right 08:40
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bbkr i've already tested socket changes and everything works as expected. but I have no idea how to write spectestst for it without fork 08:49
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bbkr also I've tested LWP::Simple affected by this bug on couple of sites and also everything works 08:53
FROGGS cool 08:54
bbkr so now only get() bug remains - rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=116302 (affected Star module - HTTP::Easy) 08:55
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grondilu couldn't I use $^ as a self-declared anonymous variable? Like: sub id { $^ }; say id "hello"; 09:01
moritz that's what $_ is for 09:02
erm, not in a sub
no
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bbkr I've just also tested few unicode cases - where chunk ends in the middle of multibyte char / read()ing multibyte char partially, etc. and also everything works. moritz++ 09:07
including cases where read param is bigger than available chars. and sleep on server side. 09:10
FROGGS r: say 'abc'.substr( *-1 )
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«c␤»
FROGGS n: say 'abc'.substr( *-1 )
p6eval niecza v24-16-g89e47b6: OUTPUT«c␤»
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Woodi morning #perl6 :) 09:16
bbkr: I just thinked, what are danger corners for utf8 'parsing' ? eg. www.cprogramming.com/tutorial/unicode.html is simple lib for utf8 but described as not quite secure and for 'internals' only... 09:18
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Woodi looks utf8 is dangerous as file paths and html... 09:20
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bbkr Woodi: I'm not sure that the described dangers are an issue in a language that distinguish Buf and Str types with internal utf8 representation of Str type and strict Buf->Str decode 09:24
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bbkr Woodi: in C you have just *char for both buffers and strings, charset information is not passed along with it, that's why it may get messy when it is passed from unicode aware method to not-aware one 09:28
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Woodi I just looked for "internal utf8 repr of Str" but looks bigger libraries just use int32 internally so not realy 'internal utf8'... 09:29
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FROGGS bbkr: my socket.read test is done, just need to recheck 09:45
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jnthn morning o/ 09:48
arnsholt o/ 09:51
moritz \o 09:52
arnsholt jnthn: Speaking of the JVM stuff, chromatic said something about an "impedance mismatch due to a foreign memory model" (quoting from memory) in a recent missive. Do you have any idea what he might be referring to? 09:54
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jnthn Not exactly, but since the place we worry most about the memory model is REPRs, I guess we could try and weigh up whether the statement is correct by seeing how well things are going on the JVM implementation of 6model from that angle. 10:03
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jnthn Given that my JVM 6model implementation's P6opaque probably already represents objects more efficiently than the 6model on Parrot one, I think we can conclude that whatever impedance mismatch we have on the JVM, it's smaller than the Parrot one we already have. 10:05
(With regard to memory model, that is.)
arnsholt That's definitely an interesting data point
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nwc10 does the JVM offer a richer primitive type system? In that, as I understand it, Parrot is "INTVAL", "NUMVAL", String and PMC (and the last 2 are effectively just pointers to something) 10:06
arnsholt I think JVM has a bit more 10:07
jnthn nwc10: A bit more.
arnsholt float and double at least, and int
But not signed/unsigned
moritz before I read jnthn++'s explanation, I'd thought that parrot gives us the option to use un-GCed memory, and java doesn't
arnsholt And byte?
nwc10 and you can't be sure whether INTVAL is 32 or 64 bits. And NUMVAL is probably a 64 bit IEEE float
jnthn Yes, byte
moritz and that might or might not be relevant 10:08
nwc10 you can build small things from bytes. (Not sure how often that ends up being useful)
jnthn moritz: Even the JVM has an escape hatch there, but so far I've not needed to use it. Unmanaged stuff probably gets in the way of a bunch of analysis.
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moritz new java versions offer unsigned arithmetics, iirc 10:09
jnthn It's true that there's no stack allocation exposed BUT any modern JVM will be doing escape analysis and turning some heap allocations into stack ones anyway.
moritz so I guess that new JVMs have optimizations for it
arnsholt Oh, neat!
moritz blogs.oracle.com/darcy/entry/unsigned_api 10:11
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jnthn OK, I gotta do some $dayjob bits for a while. :) 10:13
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arnsholt is becoming increasingly proficient at wrangling Makefiles 10:44
This may or may not be a good thing ^_^
moritz it's certainly helpful
arnsholt That's certainly true 10:46
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dalek ast: bbc7541 | (Tobias Leich)++ | S32-io/IO-Socket-INET. (2 files):
RT #116288, test that $socket.read will give us the whole cake

Even if .recv will get several chunks, read will concatenate all these.		 11:01
jnthn
.oO( the WHOLE cake? accidentally? )
 11:03
FROGGS jnthn: whats wrong with it? 11:05
ahh
like whole-grain cake 11:06
bah
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dalek ast: 033cbc9 | (Tobias Leich)++ | S32-io/IO-Socket-INET. (2 files):
RT #116288, linked ticket to test case
 11:09
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kresike hello all you happy perl6 people 11:17
tadzik kresike! \o/
kresike tadzik, o/
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FROGGS moritz: do you wanna close it? rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=116288 12:33
moritz FROGGS: I want to give .read a default buffer size first 12:41
hanging on .read() isn't good 12:42
FROGGS you mean if I dont supply the desired bytes to read? 12:43
moritz yes
if you don't know how many bytes to read, you just use .recv 12:44
FROGGS is there a flag from the server that tells one that the received data is just a chunk and that there is more (later) ? 12:45
moritz well, there's .eof
(if the client closes the connection after sending the last chunk)
FROGGS s/client/server/ ? 12:46
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moritz s/client/remote/ 12:46
FROGGS k
moritz depends on whether you're listening on the socket or not
FROGGS so there will be nothing for persistent connections... 12:47
like: see, I have 2MB to send, here is the first chunk...
so the receiving client would know: ahh I got 256kB but there is more 12:48
because if the remote will send exactly 256kB you won't know if it is just a chunk or if it is all
moritz no 12:51
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moritz you need some information on a higher protocol level for that 12:51
nwc10 IIRC you (officially) don't even know if there is more on a short read. Only if the read returns 0 octets
but IIRC reads from disks are never short. 12:52
and this is assumed by too much stuff to change
moritz (we're talking about sockets, not discs)
nwc10 I realise. But on sane operating systems, you can treat all file descriptors the same, if you need to 12:53
arnsholt And by sane OSes, we all agree that the only sane one is Plan 9, right? O;)
nwc10 that wasn't quite what I was thinking, but I'm prepared to accept this argument 12:54
arnsholt Mostly kidding, of course =)
moritz well, that rules out parrot as a sane OS :-) 12:55
nwc10 I'm not sure what the biggest bout of insanity on the JVM is. long isn't atomic, is it? 12:56
jnthn That probably depends if you're on a 32-bit or 64-bit. 12:57
So no, you shouldn't rely on it. Same story on CLR, fwiw.
woo, a pull request
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dalek p-jvm-prep: 93418f5 | (Jonathan Stafford)++ | / (3 files):
implements nqp::sha1

Implements nqp::sha1 using the UTF-8 encoding of the input string.
Although a test is included (of an ASCII-compatible string), when a non-ASCII input string is provided the test will fail. For example, if the input string is "Iñtërnâtiônàlizætiøn" the SHA-1 hash of the UTF-8 encoding should be 4B9C5D2FA4C83F7561787EB4E5F7F06A2CD47425 (according to both the JVM and nqp::sha1 on Parrot), but the test fails. I'm not sure if this is an issue with using non-ASCII characters in the test file or something deeper.		 12:59
p-jvm-prep: baf26c3 | jonathan++ | / (3 files):
Merge pull request #4 from thecabinet/master

nqp::sha1
arnsholt nwc10: I don't know about long, but double is supposed to be atomic (IIRC there's even a fairly detailed discussion in the JVM spec about ways to avoid word-tear on 32-bit machines) 13:00
jnthn Oh...maybe I'm wrong on long then.
arnsholt At least I think so. It's been a while since I looked at it 13:01
dalek p-jvm-prep: 03bad2f | jnthn++ | docs/LHF.md:
Remove completed task.
 13:02
FROGGS jnthn: there is no LHF.md for nqp/rakudo, right?
jnthn FROGGS: No, though sometimes we tag RT tickets with [LHF] or so 13:03
FROGGS hmmm, then I should search for it ;o)
thanks
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dalek ast: f493956 | jnthn++ | S14-roles/conflicts.t:
Unfudge some now-passing tests.
 13:07
timotimo jnthn: how does one find what tests to unfudge? purely by luck? or by saying "i'll work on rakudo so that this test no longer needs to be fudged!"? 13:12
tadzik there's autounfudge somewhere, isn't there?
arnsholt There's a script that runs the test suite without fudging as well I think, and reports fudged tests that run/pass 13:13
timotimo ah, that's useful
moritz tools/autounfudge.pl iirc
or util/ or so
but in this case, they were passing TODO tests 13:14
which you can see at the end of a spectest summary
timotimo i must say: it seems to me that perl projects come up with decent tooling all the time
jnthn timotimo: I fixed something and saw the extra passes last night 13:15
Just forgot to push the test
timotimo i'm considering writing (or at least drafting) that article/blogpost about sink/void context today. 13:16
moritz timotimo: I'll be happy to proof-read it for you
timotimo thanks. for now: errands & 13:17
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Woodi about nqp::sha1 above - isn't it a utf8 string engine bug not filtering malformed bytes in the first place ? Str should encapsulate such things IMO 13:31
moritz Str should know nothing about UTF-8 13:32
Buf.decode should
and whatever other ways there are to create strings from UTF-8 bytes
Woodi Str user API should not know, but internally it should "explode" on malformed sequence... 13:34
moritz Str is encoding-agnostic. Would could it '"explode" on malformed sequence...'? 13:35
s/Would/How/ 13:36
Woodi I think about Str internals vs externals...
moritz Str internals might know nothing about UTF-8 either
niecza's Str internals only know about UTF-16, I think
arnsholt If you have an invalid byte sequence, it should be impossible to get a Str object at all
moritz right. 13:37
and just to be clear, there are no "invalid byte sequences" in general, only "invalid byte sequences for the encoding we are trying to decode right now"
arnsholt A Str with invalid internal data regardless of whether the native representation is UTF-8 or -16 or pink unicorns is a compiler bug
moritz: Yeah, that's a necessary qualifier 13:38
moritz what's invalid UTF-8 in one context can be perfectly valid Latin-1
Woodi things depends on how complicated Str is... is it internally array of bytes without creating logic or kind of str engine with conversions/constructions methods...
s/bytes/somebettertermformemorybits/ :) 13:39
moritz Woodi: that's totally not the point. The point is that as soon as you have a Str object (which is immutable), it must have been validated already
Woodi yes
moritz it's not at all relevant how complicated Str is
Woodi do invalid Str's are allowed ? 13:41
moritz No 13:42
arnsholt No.
Woodi \o/
moritz that's what we've been trying you to tell you for five minutes now :-)
Woodi but in example above nqp::sha1 was using invalid Str with 8-bit-ascii encoding ? 13:43
jnthn Woodi: It's on nqp-jvm, where I've spent about zero time making sure you can even have a non-ASCII string literal so far.
I'll get something is going wrong in the JAST -> bytecode phase. 13:44
*bet
Woodi not blaming anyone :) especially jnthn++ ! just looking what is going on...
or maybe assumption was that nqp::str can contain 8-bit str ? or maybe it is allowed on nqp lvl ? 13:45
jnthn Woodi: I didn't think you were, just saying don't rely on nqp-jvm doing sensible things that Perl 6 would yet because it's very early days. 13:46
It could be as easy as the assembler reading the JAST dump in the wrong encoding... 13:47
Woodi my point is such errors should be catched on Str lvl... 13:48
moritz NO IT SHOULD NOT
we've been discussing this enough now, haven't we?
Woodi oki, thinking more
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jnthn In a fully implemented Perl 6, Str is NFG, which is more of a data structure than encoding 13:49
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moritz I hate twitter. An awesome hashtag comes up, and then it's flooded with people tweeting about how awesome that hashtag is, and then you are swamped by meta tweets, and it becomes boring 14:05
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moritz happening right now to #overlyhonestmethods 14:06
arnsholt Yeah, that's a bit annoying
timotimo moritz: make some meta-meta-tweets to remedy the situation, is my advice. 14:08
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moritz nah, just complain about it here, and be done with it :-) 14:12
arnsholt Speaking of #overlyhonestmethods, have you seen research in progress? 14:21
moritz I've mostly seen research in stand-still
in progress too, but that was very rare
arnsholt researchinprogress.tumblr.com/
As a computational linguist, my favourite is researchinprogress.tumblr.com/post/...e-baseline 14:23
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FROGGS would it makes sense to add a trait like "is_hidden_from_introspection" for things like Buf.Str ? 14:28
because:
r: say so Buf.^can('Str')
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«True␤»
FROGGS r: say Buf.Str 14:29
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«Cannot use a Buf as a string, but you called the Str method on it␤ in method Str at src/gen/CORE.setting:7320␤ in block at /tmp/mXbE1vhlK4:1␤␤»
moritz FROGGS: no. Don't have the runtime lying to itself
jnthn No, it's a bad idea.
moritz FROGGS: it's simply wrong to assume that you can call every method you find.
jnthn Remember that .^can is probably used by many internaly bits too
FROGGS hmmm, so I cant really use .^can('Str') for testing if something can be stringified... 14:30
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FROGGS sad that is 14:30
(not that I need it right now)
jnthn FROGGS: Given Mu has a Str method, *everything* will claim to be able to be stringified ;) 14:31
[Coke] the only way to know for sure if calling a method will work is to call it. 14:32
FROGGS bah, arguments -.-
:P
brbr
brb
[Coke] can is necessary but not sufficient? 14:33
moritz correct 14:34
[Coke] (I mean, I know that, I just wanted to restate it) 14:42
er, to ask if that was a better way to restate it.
bah. time for coffee #2
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flussence re: sha1 utf8 - maybe it's using the wrong normalisation form 16:09
FROGGS r: say 0xbeef.chr; say Buf.new(0xbe, 0xef).decode 16:12
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«뻯␤Malformed UTF-8 string␤␤ in method decode at src/gen/CORE.setting:7344␤ in block at /tmp/YwdAhLtMSs:1␤␤»
FROGGS how can it be malformed?
flussence r: say 0xbe.fmt('%b') 16:14
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«10111110␤»
flussence that's a continuation byte
bit 6 isn't set
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FROGGS r: say 0xbeef.fmt('%b') 16:15
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«1011111011101111␤»
16:15 SunilJoshi joined 16:17 skids joined
kresike bye folks 16:18
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FROGGS flussence: I dont get it 16:18
ahh 16:19
r: say Buf.new(0xbeef).decode
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«뻯␤»
FROGGS I thought Buf.new only takes bytes 16:20
flussence it can take 16 and 32 bit values, and there's supposed to be a "utf8" subset (which nothing supports) 16:21
FROGGS woulde it be sane to handle Buf.new(0xbe, 0xef) like Buf.new(0xbeef) when trying to .decode? 16:22
( .decode('utf-8') that is ) 16:23
so that .decode.chars will give 1 instead of 2 16:24
flussence that'll make it impossible to determine if you have a valid byte buffer or an invalid stream that happens to decode as some other charset 16:25
FROGGS I mean it should do its best to give you an utf-8 string if you ask it to, internally it can/should stay a bytestream 16:29
flussence But you're no longer asking for utf-8 in that case, you're expecting it to decode as utf-16. 16:30
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FROGGS how comes that? IMO this is utf-8 16:31
one to four bytes per character
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FROGGS two in this case 16:32
flussence r: say 0xbeef.chr.encode('utf-8')
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«Buf:0x<eb bb af>␤»
FROGGS hmmm
damn
say 0xebbbaf.chr 16:33
r: say 0xebbbaf.chr
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«Invalid character for UTF-8 encoding␤␤ in method chr at src/gen/CORE.setting:3104␤ in block at /tmp/kOTnJVXaVr:1␤␤»
flussence utf-8 is defined only for codepoints up to 1FFFFF
FROGGS r: say 0xbeef 16:34
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«48879␤»
FROGGS 0xbeef.chr.encode('utf-8') <-- this should give me the byte representation of that utf-8 char, no? 16:35
flussence yes. 16:36
FROGGS so why isnt it valid utf-8?
flussence or more correctly, it will give you the valid utf-8 byte representation of that unicode char
FROGGS r: say 0xbeef.chr.encode('iso-8859-1') 16:37
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«Lossy conversion to single byte encoding␤ in method encode at src/gen/CORE.setting:4558␤ in block at /tmp/xLxLXmO7zq:1␤␤»
FROGGS k
r: say 0xbeef.chr.encode('utf-8') # I'm not sure but I believe you are encoding an already as utf-8 encoded string as utf-8, so it gets messed up 16:39
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«Buf:0x<eb bb af>␤»
flussence You are encoding an *abstract unicode codepoint* into a *binary representation*. Unicode is *not* utf-8 and it is *not* getting messed up. 16:41
FROGGS so 0xbeef is the unicode codepoint that chr can handle 16:42
flussence Yes, exactly.
FROGGS okay 16:43
need to think while walking home 16:44
see you later
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rurban pmichaud: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/93 is now ready 17:01
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timotimo hm. the highlighting program my blog software uses doesn't handle perl6 yet :| 17:21
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dalek ecs: 4909197 | masak++ | S06-routines.pod:
[S06] typo fixes
 17:36
masak (evenin', #perl6)
TimToady (mornin', masak) 17:38
timotimo trying to come up with sensible and good examples for when lazy-by-default-for can bite you, somewhat unsuccessfully 17:39
TimToady it tends to bite you on the non-lazy end, when you save up something that shouldn't be cached, wasting memory 17:40
it tends to be less efficient if the lazy algorithm can't deduce when to do batches, and you get too much control flow overhead 17:41
oh way, you said "-for" 17:42
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TimToady *wait 17:42
timotimo were you thinking about "lazy-by-default" instead? 17:43
TimToady yes
timotimo now what you said makes more sense to me :)
TimToady allowing the --> to provide context for the final statement fixes most of the badness, as far as I can see 17:44
(plus warning if --> isn't there, and the for wants it)
doy timotimo: for @items -> $item { check($item) }, at the end of a function, where check is meant to throw exceptions on error and do nothing else
is the context where i ran into it
TimToady but then this is a function that would be marked with --> Nil since you're obviously not wanting to return anything 17:45
doy (if you proceed to then call that function in void context)
right
TimToady and --> Nil would put it into sink context
doy if there was a warning/error for that, it would help a lot
TimToady just specced last night
"if you proceed to call that function in void context": What would you expect it to return if you didn't call it in void context? 17:47
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doy well, nothing(: 17:48
17:48 kaleem left
TimToady which kind of nothing? :) 17:48
jnthn will try and get the warning/changes in before the Jan release.
doy as in, i wouldn't have any particular expectation
(:
jnthn TimToady: I'm a little curious it's parsed as a <parameter>.
TimToady: sub foo($x, $y --> $z) { } 17:49
TimToady: What does this actually mean?
TimToady the spec says now
jnthn I read it but didn't get it :)
The variable case, that is.
TimToady S06:687 17:50
jnthn Presumably it's declaring $z
TimToady yes, and then it implicitly returns $z at the end, since "return $z" is illegal
could even do --> $!foo
moritz likes it
TimToady so you can write an accessor with an empty body 17:51
jnthn OK, but the default for parameters is that $z is a readonly alias...apart from there's nothing for it to be an alias for :)
moritz well, that would need to have a different default
TimToady yes, the semantics would have to fudge to rw, since it's an "out" parameter
jnthn OK, then it makes a bit more sense.
jnthn wonders what <parameter> may be implying now that will make implemetning this a little odd 17:52
I hope not too much :)
Is the detection of "for" as the last statement syntactic?
As in, are we looking for an explicit "for" loop there? Not a call to map? 17:53
TimToady yes, same pass as would decide whether to put the sink on it or return it
jnthn Which was the "yes" to? :)
The sink analysis is semantic :)
afaik, anyway
TimToady but you need to know where the statements are
jnthn sub foo() { for 1..10 { .say } } # warning 17:54
sub foo() { .say for 1..10 } # warning
TimToady any loop, in fact
jnthn sub foo() { 1..10.map: *.say } # warning or not?
TimToady conservatively, we can warn on that too, and see if any use cases pop up to the contrary 17:55
the other slightly unresolved thing is what to put after the --> if you *do* want to return a list
[Coke] wonders if there is a writeup as to why it makes sense for those 2 to be warning?
timotimo doy: i tried to construct a pretty example like that, but now i fail to cause the for at the end of the sub to not be sinked
TimToady List? Parcel?
timotimo i seem to be confused as to what void context means, perhaps?
[Coke] is it the implicit return?
(that's easy. let me say "void sub foo() {... }" ! ;) 17:56
jnthn TimToady: Positional or Iterable is most general I guess, but dpeneds what we want to encourage
TimToady: Why do other kinds of loop need the warning? Not because of laziness, but to avoid saving all the values?
TimToady well, any loop that returns all its values :) 17:57
jnthn (Rakudo doesn't currently implement the "collect the values" thing for loops other than for...)
TimToady is it better to spec "loop" as primitive, or to look for use cases for loop returning values? 17:58
jnthn I'd be curious to see some good use cases (e.g. where it's better than "for") 17:59
I guess there's a consistency argument.
TimToady might be a foolish consistency 18:00
jnthn Aye
jnthn sometimes wonders if for/map are ;)
But I guess list comprehensions make it worthwhile...
TimToady that's partly for pedagogy too
and to stomp the meme that differentiates map from for :) 18:01
jnthn I think a lot of people's prior experience of "for" won't be that it's a kind of map (that is, that it produces results)
TimToady sure, but we're tilting the playing field toward FP here 18:02
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timotimo do for and map work exactly the same in perl6? or are there subtle differences? 18:02
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jnthn I think "you have to write --> Nil" will actually be harder to teach/justify, for what it's worth. 18:02
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jnthn Also, while so far we've had plenty of people putting type constraints on parameters in Perl 6 code, I've seen much less of that happen with return values. 18:03
er, return types 18:04
jeffreykegler hi. Is there a resource where I can check out how the Perl 6 team handles collaboration? 18:05
I mean things like github, etc.
The technical stuff
A project of mine is going collaborative, so as usual I am here to steal ^W borrow ideas 18:06
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timotimo can i get a small example where a for loop at the end of a sub doesn't get executed because of its lazyness? 18:06
jnthn While I'm all for biasing towards FP, in reality I'm not sure "for" will be naturally seen as an FP construct. 18:07
arnsholt jeffreykegler: One facet of the Perl 6 project which seems pretty special is the liberal attitude to commit bits
timotimo r: sub test() { for ^2 { print "hip " } }; test(); say "hooray!"
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«hip hip hooray!␤»
timotimo r: sub test() { for ^2 { print "hip " } }; test();
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«hip hip »
jnthn timotimo: It's not "doesn't get executed"
masak jeffreykegler: we do most of the collaboration under the perl6/ account of github.
TimToady well, and here on IRC 18:08
jnthn r: sub test() { my $*x = 2; for ^2 { print "hip " } }; my $*x = 1; test();
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«hip hip »
arnsholt Getting a commit bit to stuff like the specs or roast is mostly a question of showing some kind of interest
jnthn r: sub test() { my $*x = 2; for ^2 { print "hip $*x " } }; my $*x = 1; test();
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«Dynamic variable $*x not found␤current instr.: 'throw' pc 329834 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:147383) (src/gen/CORE.setting:9248)␤called from Sub 'Str' pc 359008 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:159143) (src/gen/CORE.setting:10396)␤called from Sub 'Stringy' pc 146729 (src/ge…
TimToady jeffreykegler: there's also github -> IRC feedback via the dalek bot
jeffreykegler TimToady: yes your IRC example has already convinced me that we need to converse in public
timotimo so the main problem is different order of instructions? 18:09
jeffreykegler Something I certainly would not have thought of on my own
TimToady some info and discussion flows on mailing lists too, but that tends to be secondary
jeffreykegler masak: whose is the repository? that is, what github user?
doy timotimo: seems to only happen with methods, not functions?
timotimo it belongs to the organisation, i believe, jeffreykegler 18:10
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doy r: class Foo { has @.items; method check_items { for @.items -> $item { die "bad" if $item == 2 } }; method foo { self.check_items; say for @.items } }; Foo.new(items => (1, 2, 3, 4)).foo 18:10
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«␤␤␤␤»
doy r: class Foo { has @.items; method check_items { for @.items -> $item { die "bad" if $item == 2 }; return }; method foo { self.check_items; say for @.items } }; Foo.new(items => (1, 2, 3, 4)).foo
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«bad␤ in method check_items at /tmp/uaYwCfXmAp:1␤ in method foo at /tmp/uaYwCfXmAp:1␤ in block at /tmp/uaYwCfXmAp:1␤␤»
masak jeffreykegler: it is an organization.
jeffreykegler github.com/perl6 ?
timotimo doy: that surprises me.
doy i couldn't reproduce ^^ with subs, for some reason
jeffreykegler I will probably use a mailing list not an IRC for two reasons 18:11
One is I don't expect this kind of traffic
Second is almost none of my community is in the same time zone
TimToady jeffreykegler: another important datapath is the irc logs that we can refer back to
for instance, did you see what I said at irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-01-09#i_6313797 18:12
jeffreykegler TimToady: about scannerless parsing? Yes I did
By the way, I agree that "scannerless" is not a fortunate choice of terminology 18:13
But I *do* try to track the literature and it seems to be pretty much embedded
TimToady I'm glad somebody tracks the literature, and that it's not me :) 18:14
the fact that S06 mentions PEGs is also a retrofit 18:15
jeffreykegler By the way, the solution I adopted for scannerless parsing is more or less that of Perl 6, with different notation
I tried what I call a "Ruby Slippers" approach, but discovered my parser needs a few extra "hooks" for that to work 18:16
TimToady is that Ruby as in the language?
timotimo doy: i'd be interested to see the comments of some of the experts on that issue 18:17
PerlJam TimToady: no, it's not.
jeffreykegler No, it's a parsing technique where on failure, you ask the parser, "OK what do you wish for?"
Then you give it to it.
arnsholt "Ruby slippers" as in Wizard of Oz, I think
PerlJam jeffreykegler: btw, "ruby slippers" makes everyone thing of Ruby the language :)
TimToady got that part
PerlJam s/thing/think/
TimToady just didn't know if there was a rubylang overlay 18:18
jeffreykegler Perljam: so I discover
arnsholt (Although that particular cultural reference is far enough outside my sphere of reference I'm not really sure what it actually means =)
jeffreykegler arnsholt: A land without the "Wizard of Oz"?
TimToady well, it's not transparent in how it would apply to parsing
arnsholt A land called Europe ;)
jeffreykegler My parser is Earley based and is 100% accurate (in the technical sense) when it fails .... 18:19
arnsholt A did see it once (an open-air showing on the Mall in Washington DC, actually) but it's been 20 years
jeffreykegler ... as to why. It knows what rules it was looking for, what symbols it wants, how far it got in the rules, etc.
arnsholt Pretty much all I remember is "lions, tigers, bears, oh my" and a yellow brick road
TimToady arnsholt: the ruby slippers come at the end, where she wishes herself back to Kansas 18:20
jeffreykegler arnsholt: So you don't live near Kansas?
PerlJam arnsholt: "there's no place like home; there's no place like home; there's no place like home"
arnsholt Yeah, I've been reading your posts on blogs.perl.org with quite a bit of interest. I always had a soft spot for the Earley algorithm
Right, right. I think that rings a bell 18:21
jeffreykegler: Definitely not. I'm in Norway, so it's a bit off the beaten track =)
jnthn doy: I'm a bit surprised the first of those two didn't die. 18:22
jeffreykegler An example of using the Ruby Slippers: HTML parsing. Write a "perfect world" grammar, assuming all start and end tags are physically present
Then start parsing. If the parse wants a tag, that you didn't see, just invent it.
jnthn dinner, bbiab 18:23
jeffreykegler Essentially, the lexer plays Glenda and tells the parser that it has always been in Kansas
doy jnthn: so was i!
jeffreykegler I was a little surprised myself when I found this works very smoothly
TimToady has some familiarity with lexers that lie, and tends to avoid them these days :) 18:24
we would tend to just return a synthetic AST in that case
jeffreykegler I think reality is overrated as a concept
arnsholt Well, one of jeffreykegler's use cases for the technique was parsing Perl 5 =) 18:25
TimToady of the four or five ways a compiler can cheat, Perl 5 uses about eight of them
jeffreykegler Yes, actually a form of the technique shows up, I think in Perl 5's parsing of the "use statement"
Also, there's a semi-colon hack, as I recall
By the way, the other day you were looking for code that survived from Perl 1 to Perl 5 18:26
If you look in the yacc grammar, there's a whole lot of it.
huf what are these ways a compiler can cheat?
TimToady those techniques that make the parser unsure of which language it's in currently have now been considered harmful for Perl 6
PerlJam TimToady: jeffreykegler's technique is more like assuming you're in the language you thought you were. 18:27
(granted, this assumption can go wrong, just like any other "guessing" technique) 18:28
TimToady huf: well, just on the lexer level, lookbehinds, lookaheads, synthetic token queueing, sublexing for strings, fake lexer states, to name a few
huf looks like i'll need to grow up a bit to know what those things are :)
TimToady that's even before you start rewriting ASTs 18:29
huf why are these things cheating?
PerlJam TimToady: so, Perl 6 is about legitimizing the cheats by making them first class language? :)
jeffreykegler A nice feature of Earley/Marpa/Ruby Slippers parsing is no lookahead, and no backtracking.
huf i mean, isnt this precisely why we have compilers? :)
TimToady PerlJam: no, it's really throwing out the cheats that cause the parse to be insane 18:30
18:30 marloshouse left
TimToady we do allow backtracking, with the proviso that such code must store all its result data in the AST, so it can be thrown away if we backtrack 18:31
jeffreykegler There's a saying on the NASCAR circuit, I'm told, "You ain't cheatin', You ain't tryin'"
18:31 bluescreen10 left
jeffreykegler LALR parsing is always in practice a kind of cheat 18:31
japhb obCheating/TechniqueReference 18:32
huf the output of a compiler is magic anyway, magic that, if all went well, does what the code was supposed to do.
jeffreykegler Because it seems that no practical grammar is ever *quite* LALR
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PerlJam jeffreykegler: In theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice, they're not. :) 18:32
jeffreykegler In any case, the crucial consideration for me was, "does it work?" 18:33
TimToady an additional constraint on the Perl 6 design is that it *must* allow backtracking to allow Perl 5 regexes as a degenerate case
arnsholt huf: But there are varying degrees of magic. Parsing Perl 5 for example, is so magical it's all but impossible to replicate outside of the perl codebase
TimToady well, p5 semantics, not notation
arnsholt (AFAICT)
18:34 preflex left
japhb timotimo, The place lazy-default for has really been biting me is when I'm working on glue scripts that do things like chdir around a filesystem as they do different tasks, perhaps executing a loop in a given directory. When for is lazy, and the contents of the loop don't happen until sometime later, the loop contents end up executing in a different directory than they expected. Hilarity ensues. 18:34
huf arnsholt: well yes, you need to run it to parse it to run it to ... :)
dalek p: 79adaf3 | rurban++ | .gitignore:
Revert "add MANIFEST.generated to .gitignore"

This reverts commit 5f89700d9c98f0f8216f72edadfc6134726c324c. Not generated with parrot 5.0, since github.com/parrot/parrot/issues/922		 18:35
p: 5a9b349 | rurban++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
install dynpmc headers, as parrot 5.0 does so

See github.com/parrot/parrot/issues/922
18:35 PacoAir left
jeffreykegler So back to "how to colloborate", the organization owns the github repository and I see you've got a lot of members 18:36
TimToady it's a pretty flat org chart
18:36 PacoAir joined
TimToady perhaps the most important organizing principle is "forgiveness > permission" 18:37
japhb Several individuals are higher on the org chart, but not because they are in a supervisory layer. More like they are taller bumps on a pancake. :-)
au++ introduced us to radical trust. It has served us well since. 18:38
PerlJam didn't even realize we /had/ an org chart
TimToady like I used to tell my kids: "I don't care if you're taller, as long as you're tolerable."
japhb *chuckle*
TimToady more of a disorg chart 18:39
japhb I'm going to have to use that.
[Coke] people work on things that interest them, or maybe on things that will help other people.
japhb Along with my father's "You grew some? Yeah, you gruesome all right ...."
jeffreykegler And the approach to commit bits?
japhb "here you go"
dalek rl6-roast-data: bec8594 | coke++ | / (4 files):
today (automated commit)
rl6-roast-data: 66f4008 | coke++ | / (4 files):
today (automated commit)
rl6-roast-data: eb3d723 | coke++ | / (4 files):
today (automated commit)
rl6-roast-data: de06f3e | coke++ | / (4 files):
minor fixups
jeffreykegler japhb: au == Audrey Tang?
TimToady except for historically parrot required CLA signing, so I think rakudo still does too?
japhb Generally I think the only real limitation is that Rakudo requires a CLA (Contributor License Agreement), presumably to avoid someone's $day_job employer trying to claim ownership.
jeffreykegler, yes.
[Coke] rakudo requires perl.org CLA - but it's not because parrot did, I don't think.
(but parrot does also) 18:41
TimToady well, they used to be the same project, more or less
jeffreykegler Ok. I always associated the idea with Audrey. Does her work predate your discussing the project in public on IRC?
TimToady pretty much started the same time 18:42
japhb Yeah, that's my (fuzzy) memory too.
TimToady it was au++ that started me on IRC
for certain kinds of design discussions, it's just much more efficient than email 18:44
though email has its place too, as do other scales of communication
jeffreykegler I have the problem that most of my community is not in the US, and not anywhere near my time zone
PerlJam TimToady: Does the Cabal Call happen anymore?
TimToady not for several years
jeffreykegler So IRC might not work for Marpa::R3 (my project) 18:45
japhb jeffreykegler, Which is why IRC logs (as well as just leaving an IRC window open) work well
Perl6 development manages pretty well in handling timezones world wide.
jeffreykegler Of course maybe everybody else will develop it just fine without me
japhb Because people aren't on here only during "work" hours
PerlJam jeffreykegler: I bet if you ask moritz, he could log your channel just like #perl6 18:46
TimToady jeffreykegler: you need to have more Hubris :)
18:46 Chillance left
jeffreykegler TimToady: Actually, I get that criticism a lot 18:47
TimToady "If I take a vacation, they'll screw it up for sure..." :)
"in the nicest of possible ways..."
jeffreykegler moritz has been very helpful to me in the past
TimToady of course, when I'm online, it gets screwed up a different way... 18:48
PerlJam jeffreykegler: Is your community 12 hours out of phase with you? If so, you might need to find a couple of long nights every once in a while, but otherwise IRC handles multi-timezone communication quite well.
jeffreykegler Perljam: basically, yes
TimToady with approriate bots, you can leave messages for people
or if you know your other person always reads the backlogs, you can just address them vocatively 18:49
jeffreykegler I don't know if it's the education system or what, but Americans do not do parsing theory nearly as much as those outside the US
TimToady and most IRC clients will highlight that your name has been evoked
japhb India <-> West Coast US is indeed approximately pessimal. But I find it less so when it's personal project coordination instead of $day_job coordination.
PerlJam jeffreykegler: maybe it's population differences. You're dealing with a self selected group of people from a larger population, so you encounter objectively more parsing-theory-people but probably proportionally the same in a per-capita fashion 18:52
(that's my anti-americans-are-stupid optimism anyway :) 18:54
jeffreykegler Btw, I am a US citizen living in California
diakopter too, and is anti-anti-americans-are-stupid 18:55
jeffreykegler What's my next step? Contact moritz? 18:56
japhb Create your channel first
jeffreykegler (About IRC, not about the US educational system, that is)
dalek ecs: ffef865 | flussence++ | S (2 files):
Tidy up overly long lines
PerlJam jeffreykegler: create a channel; invite people; ask moritz to log it; maybe setup some messaging bots 18:58
japhb Can dalek be told to report commits from a given repo to only one of the channels it is in? 18:59
jeffreykegler I'll get back to my mailing list, and see if the Marpa community likes this idea 19:00
arnsholt japhb: Pretty sure it can
It reports commits to the parrot repo only in #parrot and not here 19:01
diakopter japhb: yes; the listener first writes the messages it receives from github/etc to disk then the dalek process read/spits/deletes them
japhb Ah, good. 19:02
moritz jeffreykegler: yes 19:06
erm, meant japhb, but it's also a "yes" to jeffreykegler :-) 19:07
japhb: in the mu repo, there are some files im misc/dalek* that contain all the info you need
japhb I keep forgetting dalek is in mu. 19:08
moritz not dalek itself
only some documentation and configuration
19:08 inokenty left
japhb ah, that explains my confusion 19:08
jnthn back 19:10
FROGGS you dont even need dalek, the github service hooks can spam every channel 19:16
dalek is just a bit better than the github service hook
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dalek nda: fcfec51 | tadzik++ | / (2 files):
In a long dependency chain, ensure that some projects don't get installed twice
 19:30
19:30 SamuraiJack left
jeffreykegler moritz: thanks! 19:41
moritz jeffreykegler: do you have a channel name already? 19:43
jeffreykegler moritz: not yet. I'm checking with the Marpa mailing list, just in case the community there hates the idea. I'll let you know. Is your email address on github good? 19:46
dalek nda: 84e6bd9 | tadzik++ | / (2 files):
Skip git files during local installation
 19:50
moritz jeffreykegler: yes 19:55
skids discovers he will not be debugging C++ for the next two hours. o/
moritz on monday I've fixed a bug in some of the worst Perl code I've ever seen 19:56
full of two-letter named variables 19:57
and anonymous subroutines that don't get their data from arguments passed, but from semi-global variables
(mostly lexicals, but valid in scope of ~2k lines) 19:58
masak o.O
tadzik duh
masak nothing you said shocked me, until you said "scope of ~2k lines".
what's wrong with people!?
japhb Oh, that's nothing in terms of hellish codebases.
japhb mightily resists telling war stories for an hour. 19:59
diakopter agrees that's nothing
(though I'm sure there's more moritz hasn't mentioned)
skids The first person to ask "how can I automatically get attributes to be sigilless in an object method" I swear I am going to pelt them with dirty socks. 20:00
tadzik :D
masak Oh, that's nothing in terms of being pelted with undesirable things. 20:02
:P
skids Yes but dirty socks are always at hand. Or at least, at foot. 20:04
masak heh. 20:05
tadzik gah, where did github hide the "new repository button" : 20:07
it's the 3rd time I look for it today
flussence try looking on the page with "enable middle click paste in gists"... :/ 20:08
.oO( why do sites do giant sweeping redesigns without *using* them to see if *they work*? )
diakopter "people are getting repo happy" "hide the button"
tadzik bah, I can't even lift-click the "Create public gist"
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dalek osystem: b871794 | tadzik++ | META.list:
Add Task::Star
 20:11
ecs: b35224c | larry++ | S32-setting-library/Containers.pod:
Clarify uniq semantics; add squish alternative

The uniq function guarantees uniqueness throughout the list, but is overkill if the input is sorted appropriately. If the user knows the input is sorted, or if the user merely desires to reduce runs of adjacent identical instances to one instance, the squish function will do that.		 20:12
ecs: 41ec325 | larry++ | S (2 files):
Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/specs
TimToady hmm, did I do that right? 20:13
diakopter yay for squishy 20:15
TimToady prior art is the "squish" flag on tr/// 20:16
diakopter TimToady: did someone ever codify the syntax for using a function signature as the type of a parameter or return value? 20:17
20:17 phenny left
TimToady nr: $_ = "aabcccddaabbb"; tr:s/a..z/a..z/; .say 20:17
diakopter I remember talking about it
p6eval niecza v24-16-g89e47b6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Action method quote:tr not yet implemented at /tmp/UZia1Zjt3P line 1:␤------> $_ = "aabcccddaabbb"; tr:s/a..z/a..z/⏏; .say␤␤Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method statement_level in type Any␤ at /h…
..rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Operators '..' and '..' are non-associtiave and require parenthesis␤at /tmp/WL_CVMs0gg:1␤------> $_ = "aabcccddaabbb"; tr:s/a..z/a.⏏.z/; .say␤ expecting any of:␤ dotty method or postfix␤»
TimToady o_O
20:17 phenny joined
TimToady diakopter: there's something about that somewhere in the specs 20:18
flussence r: $_ = 'associtiave'; s[.*] = 'associative'; .say 20:19
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«associative␤»
TimToady S06:1689
masak TimToady: 'git pull --rebase' avoids pesky merge commits in the specs repo.
TimToady yes, but I've been burned by that too, meseemeth 20:20
diakopter TimToady: oh yeah. thx
masak using any kind of rebasing before achieving git nirvana is risky, indeed. 20:21
and of course, conflicts are still possible, but rather more pleasant (IMO) than merge conflicts.
TimToady is still in git limbo
masak :)
TimToady I'd rather inflict extra dalek messages on people than accidentally delete their patches... 20:23
masak yes, that's pre-nirvana reasoning ;) 20:24
diakopter exterminate...
masak diakopter: I have never heard a dalek pronounce it quite like that. not even a melancholy one. 20:28
it's more like EX-TER-MI-NATE.
FROGGS is that right? (multi multi note): github.com/perl6/specs/blob/master...O.pod#note 20:34
[Coke] r: sub postfix:<!!> ($x) { my $a = $x %% 2 ?? 2 !! 3; [*] $a, $a+2 ... $x } ; say 4!!; say 5!! 20:35
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«8␤15␤»
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masak FROGGS: no, that looks like a typo. feel free to fix. 20:37
FROGGS will do, thanks
masak r: sub postfix:<!!>($x) { [*] $x, $x - 2 ... 2|3 }; say 4!!; say 5!! 20:38
jnthn woo, finally I have some Perl 6 tuits :)
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
masak huh!
jnthn r: say ($x, $x - 2 ... 2|3).perl
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $x is not declared␤at /tmp/k7eWANcb5Q:1␤------> say ($x⏏, $x - 2 ... 2|3).perl␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤»
jnthn r: sub foo($x) { say ($x, $x - 2 ... 2|3).perl }; foo(2) 20:39
masak r: sub postfix:<!!>($x) { [*] $x, $x - 2 ... any(2, 3) }; say 4!!; say 5!!
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
masak something's wrong here.
"I notice that I am confused."
jnthn Maybe.
I think the 2|3 may be auto-threading earlier than any("you expect", "it should be") 20:40
So it results in two sequences
[Coke] or, $x is 4, you have 4, 2, ... any (2,3) ... it's too late.
jnthn One of which never terminates.
[Coke] you already have your 2.
sub postfix:<!!>($x) { [*] $x, $x - 2 ... any(2, 3) }; say 6!! 20:41
masak oh!
[Coke] r: sub postfix:<!!>($x) { [*] $x, $x - 2 ... any(2, 3) }; say 6!!
masak jnthn: yes, I think you're right.
[Coke] yup, I was wrong. :)
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
masak what I really wanted is not a junction, but an object which .ACCEPTs 2 or 3 ;)
dalek ecs: 0c7f42d | (Tobias Leich)++ | S32-setting-library/IO.pod:
typo: was "multi multi note (...)"
20:42 Detroit left
masak r: sub postfix:<!!>($x) { [*] $x, $x - 2 ... class { method ACCEPTS($n) { $n == 2 || $n == 3 } } }; say 4!!; say 5!! 20:42
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«8␤15␤»
masak \o/
[Coke] r: sub postfix:<!!>($x) { [*] $x, $x - 2 ... {* >=2} }; say 6!! 20:43
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«6␤»
[Coke] r: sub postfix:<!!>($x) { [*] $x, $x - 2 ... {* >=2} }; say 4!!; say 5!! 20:44
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«4␤5␤»
masak r: sub postfix:<!!>($x) { [*] $x, $x - 2 ... 2<=*<=3 }; say 4!!; say 5!!
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse quote-words subscript; couldn't find right angle quote␤at /tmp/KcXUvl_XnJ:1␤------> , $x - 2 ... 2<=*<=3 }; say 4!!; say 5!!⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤»
jnthn r: sub postfix:<!!>($x) { [*] $x, $x - 2 ... * == 2|3 }; say 6!!
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«48␤»
[Coke] jnthn++
masak r: sub postfix:<!!>($x) { [*] $x, $x - 2 ... 2 <= * <= 3 }; say 4!!; say 5!!
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«4␤5␤»
moritz 2<= # <-- bad
masak hm.
moritz: yeah. momentary lapse.
but still, the last one should be OK. why isn't it? 20:45
moritz which last one?
masak r: sub postfix:<!!>($x) { [*] $x, $x - 2 ... 2 <= * <= 3 }; say 4!!; say 5!!
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«4␤5␤»
masak 5!! should be 15.
FROGGS moritz: would you say that IO::Socket::INET.recv is for strings and .read is for binary data?
TimToady the RHS of ... should be able to do a smartmatch, so shouldn't autothread, I'd think
masak submits rakudobug
jnthn TimToady: wfm, it's probably not hard to fix it that way.
moritz FROGGS: .read is for binary data, .get and .lines are for strings 20:46
TimToady I certainly expected 2|3 to work there
moritz FROGGS: .recv could be either; happens to be Str right now, but we should really offer both options
[Coke] so, someone on another chat server said something about a function being undefined for negative even integers. from this I googled to find the double factorial. and now we have a rakudobug. yay. 20:47
jnthn TimToady: Is the "for is just map" thing decidedly staying the same, or is it in the set of things you're currently pondering?
moritz r: say (2 <= * <= 3).perl 20:48
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«WhateverCode.new()␤»
TimToady jnthn: I'm not thinking about changing that part; I'd like to see how the warning approach works out 20:49
I'd be more likely to introduce some sugar for --> Nil and --> List
jnthn TimToady: I'm more worried --> Nil feels like a design smell than I am about the warning, fwiw.
TimToady no idea what that might be though
the smelly thing about it, to my mind, is that it is introspecting .DEFINITE 20:51
thought about syntax for value return like --> (42) 20:52
doy seems like making for be equivalent to 'eager map' or something similiar would make more conceptual sense to me
TimToady then --> () is "returns nothing"
and then you can return a type as a value --> (Any)
jnthn I think it bothers me because I don't feel having to add type information is a particularly right-feeling fix. 20:53
TimToady but sigs ending with () seems a bit ucky
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TimToady well, special-casing 'for' is just as smelly, to me 20:53
jnthn It's not really a special case 20:54
If anything, it makes it more uniform with the other loops
TimToady well,the real issue is whether the final statement is to be in sink context
jnthn Which also always do their work "right away"
Hm, true 20:55
TimToady sink context is Perl6-ese for "side effects wanted"
jnthn Just making it eager fixes the "programs don't behave right" thing, but not the memory leak.
TimToady it's also what triggers "useless use of" warnings
so it's fundamentally the Pascalish proc vs fun thing, but I don't want to use the declarators for that, since methods can also be proc-ish or fun-ish 20:56
or was it "func"? don't remember 20:57
jnthn I dunno. I grew up on a basic dialect that did sub vs. function :) 20:58
japhb I would just like to get to a place that I don't have to add boilerplate all over just to make it sane that I ended a subroutine with a for loop.
'eager do for' is ... LTA
rurban ad sockets: .recv is low-level with full options, .read is higher-level with max bytes only 20:59
we just do not support }g,s}etsockopt() options yet :)
masak japhb: isn't 'eager for' enough? 21:00
japhb And having a signature item at the top change not just the constraint on the return, but the semantics of a not-obviously-related looping construct as well, feels like spooky action at a distance.
TimToady japhb: also thinking about how to give the optimizer enough info to actually do decent optimization, and return types figure into that heavily
japhb masak, It may be -- I think I ended up with 'eager do for' working around a bug at some point, and the idiom stuck in my head. 21:01
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TimToady I think it's mischaractarizing it to call it "boilerplate" 21:01
rurban ad .recv(): here are the proposed options: github.com/parrot/parrot/commit/3f...db57f8d250
jnthn keeps seeing a lot of people getting bitten by this "for loop at end of sub/method may run the code later" thing
japhb OK, I can see that being a strong word. But from my perspective, it's code that I have to add that makes the semantics sane *to me*. It's kindof like //x from Perl 5. 21:02
TimToady at worst, it's mis-huffmanized, I think
but people do need to actually think about what a routine returns
flussence I'd be okay with for loops there emitting a compile-time warning without an "eager" or "return"
moritz please not
TimToady and the --> is darn good documentation of that 21:03
moritz warnings are the worst thing to do
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moritz because if you emit a warning, you discourage the lazy usage, because it warns 21:03
flussence oh.
moritz but then you could make the loop eager in the first place
japhb I guess a big annoyance with the current state is something that the spec commit addressed, which is that if I forget to say either eager or sink, the semantics of the for have changed -- and I don't know about it until much later (unlike a return constraint failure which would die right out). So the warning is at least helpful
moritz would be fine with 'for' being eager and 'map' being lazy 21:04
[Coke] building hs-cabal via macports seems brain damaged.
japhb Yes, mis-huffmanized is fair. But I maintain that the interaction of things like chdir with laziness means that eager for and plain for are semantically different.
jnthn moritz: eager or sinky?
japhb Not just caring about return value.
flussence whatever happens, please don't copy Rust's end-of-block fubar-ness
TimToady which is?
flussence trailing semicolon -> return Nil 21:05
jnthn moritz: I think I just found the lingering method sinking bug.
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jnthn moritz: The one doy hit earlier 21:05
Spectesting the fix
flussence (no trailing semicolon -> return last statement's value)
xalbo I'm curious, what is the case for "for" being anything other than eager and sinky, when "map" exists and handles the other case just fine?
[Coke] I suppose requiring "return" to return a value is right out.
moritz rurban: a versio of recv that returns a ByteBuffer would be awesome 21:06
japhb Also, if the end of your for loop is a push call, and you forget to sink the for, the requirement to save all loop values means you may OOM because of the quadratic space explosion. I know because I did it to myself repeatedly. :-(
TimToady xalbo: you'd like to be able to write list comprehensions in either order
xalbo Doesn't map do both orders? That is, map as a method puts the list first, map as a function puts the operation first. Or am I out of date? 21:08
flussence map as a method puts the list first, map as a function puts the map function call first... 21:09
japhb Hmmm, what about calling for "mostly sinky"? So that it defaults to sink/eager, unless it is part of a larger expression/statement?
So "return for ..." works as lazy, but "for" by itself is sink?
flussence can't that be generalised to "implicit returns are eager"? 21:10
japhb flussence, no, I think that's a false generalization.
You want to be able to say:
sub add_these ($a, $b) { $a + $b }
flussence hm
21:11 pmurias joined
pmurias how can I install ASUSTek Computer, Inc. USB-N10 802.11n Network Adapter [Realtek RTL8188SU] 21:11
japhb Well, you know what I mean.
TimToady at the moment, I'm inclined to make it a hard error, saying "Use of 'for' as the final statement is disallowed; please put a return after it if it is procedural, or declare signature with --> List if it is functional" or some such
flussence yeah
pmurias sorry
wrong channel
japhb I still like 'return for', if that's what you want. 21:12
TimToady except that syntax is currently invalid
unless we turn return into a statement_prefix
masak std: return for 1..3 # Illegal? I think not! 21:13
p6eval std a8bc48f: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 42m␤»
masak :P
japhb I accept any variant that captures the flavor of what I mean: you have to state that you want a for to return loop values.
rurban moritz: the default encoding for recv() is binary
but still, yes
jnthn TimToady: If we make that an error, we invalidate a load of existing code.
flussence
.oO( maybe we should have --> return types on for loops )
 21:14
TimToady jnthn: sure, would require a deprecation cycle, or maybe a Deprecation Cycle
jnthn TimToady: I think it'll also cause a lot of "wtf"... :(
For all its problems, I still find making the imperative-style loop constructs never producing a result list the least bad option so far. :( 21:15
My main problem with it being breaking list comprehensions... 21:16
TimToady well, that will break a lot of code too
jnthn Hm, true
TimToady it's one of those design issues where the language simply doesn't make a needed distinction
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TimToady we simply don't know whether the final statement is intended as imperative or functional 21:17
21:18 kaare_ left
TimToady and defaulting it either way is gonna screw someone up, and defaulting it neithier way is gonna screw someone up 21:18
*neither
and any solution that involves doctoring the end of the code strikes me as a mere workaround to the fundamental problem of not understanding the intent of the routine 21:19
maybe we just need a special marker that says "this function is allowed to return a lazy list" 21:20
jnthn To what degree is it fixable by having a forsink and a forresults (but probably one being called for and the other getting another name)?
TimToady but that still doesn't help know whether you want the eager results of the loop 21:21
skids
.oO("use N00b": warn about things you normally wouldn't want warned)
21:21 pmurias joined
FROGGS .oO( use help; ) 21:21
jnthn forsink = sink, no results. forresults = exactly what map does.
TimToady jnthn: doesn't scale to other loops if we want to generalize
rather have something composable 21:22
it's what I'd characterize as a low-wattage solution, and we try to avoid those in P6
jnthn Yes, I was kinda assuming we leave the other loops not producing a result list, given nobody seems to have missed them much... :)
But we could go the composable route on all of 'em too I guess 21:23
TimToady but again, these are kinda bandaids over the real problem of not knowing the intent of the routine 21:24
japhb 'is lazy'?
Oh NM, you're talking procedural or functional, and that's an oblique angle
dalek kudo/nom: 99c4f9c | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
Fix a broken case of autosink.

  $foo.bar() will not be a top-level callmethod, but will actually wrap
it in something to do Perl 6 type coercion if the method returns some other object. This we need p6type in the autosink list too.		 21:25
moritz note that traits can only be an answer for routines 21:26
FROGGS but adding a trait to the for loop (and maybe other statements) is most perl-six-y I think
moritz but the problem with sink also exists with blocks
consider try { for @list { die "foo" if $_ ~~ /OHNOEZ } }
FROGGS you can apply a trait to an anon block, right?
moritz not with easy syntax 21:27
and such traits are really just band-aids
you don't want to litter you code with them
TimToady if the try is in sink context, then so is the for, and the die, transitively (is where I'd like to get to, so that sink optimizations work well) 21:28
Perl 5 manages this 21:29
dalek ast: fa9e6b7 | jnthn++ | S04-statements/for.t:
Test sink/method call/die interaction bug.
TimToady as I said yesterday, I think all the eager contexts want to be able to propagate inward for optmization purposes 21:30
sink/eager/hyper/race
if this were the case, a 'for' in final position would always be eager *except* when some outer context actually expects a lazy result 21:33
well, maybe that's an overstatement 21:37
moritz I don't think we can reliably propagate sink context inwards
TimToady why not? 21:38
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not_gerd hello, #perl6 21:38
phenny not_gerd: 09 Jan 20:19Z <jnthn> tell not_gerd Grammar::Tracer issue fixed, and also added a test. Still gotta look at the Grammar::Debugger issue.
not_gerd jnthn++
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moritz TimToady: well, maybe with extra run-time meta information we could 21:38
TimToady routines without explicit return specs might have to maintain a dynamic variable, seems to be about the limit of it 21:39
21:39 thou left
not_gerd OO question: if I want to initialize an attribute based on the value of a (public) attribute of the parent class, do I need to write a custom &new? 21:39
moritz r: sub f() { fail "foo" }; f(); say 42 # jnthn, any idea why this doesn't throw the exception?
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«42␤»
moritz not_gerd: no 21:40
jnthn r: sub f() { fail "foo" }; f().sink; say 42
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«foo␤ in method sink at src/gen/CORE.setting:10405␤ in block at /tmp/MeGJ70txCP:1␤␤»
moritz r: class A { has $.x = 42 }; class B is A { has $.y = self.x / 2 }; say B.new(x => 18).y
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«9␤»
moritz not_gerd: see above 21:41
TimToady or to look at it backwards, every caller can report to the callee its disposition for final statements, and for routines of known return specification, that disposition is a constant
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moritz not_gerd: objects are initialized parent-first, so if you need something more complex than a default value, you can define a submethod BUILD 21:42
TimToady so perhaps then the motivation for --> is more for speed than correctness
jnthn r: sub f() { fail "foo" }; say f().defined
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«False␤»
jnthn moritz: Because we check for definedness
TimToady and I suspect people will be quite motivated to add --> if it makes their programs run faster :)
jnthn moritz: Should we only be checking for "not a type object"?
moritz jnthn: do we? I thought we checked for p6definite
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jnthn moritz: We do both 21:43
moritz erm, what?
jnthn Because .DEFINITE is a *really* cheap test, I assume.
xalbo Speed, but also documentation. --> Nil seems a handy way to make sure that someone doesn't accidentally try to get a value back from your routine.
moritz jnthn: ok, we shouldn't :-)
jnthn: what's the difference between isconcrete and p6definite? 21:44
doy TimToady: that sounds like it would be a reasonable solution to me
jnthn moritz: uh, good question
skids What's the rule as to the laziness of the loop control iterator?
moritz I guess checking only .DEFINITE would be righter
because we really want Failure in sink context to blow up 21:45
jnthn moritz: oh
nqp::isconcrete returns an integer
perl6_definite returns a Bool (True or False)
moritz but they check the same logic?
jnthn moritz: Yes
moritz: Just different result type
moritz: Shall I try it? 21:46
moritz jnthn: yes, please 21:47
moritz needs to go to bed now, have to get up early tomorrow :/
jnthn aww
OK, trying :)
Will commit/push if spectest looks good
xalbo The new spec for uniq is nice, but it's still a little less explicit than I think it should be for whether the order of the remaining elements is preserved. 21:48
not_gerd r: (class :: is X::AdHoc { has $!first-user-frame = self.backtrace.grep({ !.is-hidden && !.is-setting && .is-routine })[0] }).new 21:49
p6eval rakudo e26703: OUTPUT«No such method 'backtrace' for invocant of type 'Any'␤ in method new at src/gen/CORE.setting:9095␤ in method backtrace at src/gen/CORE.setting:9226␤ in method at /tmp/ZcPXDcuYGT:1␤ in block at src/gen/CORE.setting:779␤ in method BUILDALL at src/gen/CORE.sett…
moritz xalbo: then reword :-) 21:50
masak 'night, #perl6 21:51
moritz 'night masak, #perl6
jnthn moritz: darn, at least one fail
no, 2 :(
xalbo "suppresses all subsequent instances": Turns out, I just suck at reading. Apologies.
jnthn It does fix the bug though... 21:52
lives_ok { @arr[*-1] }, "readonly accessing [*-1] of an empty array is ok (1)"; 21:56
That now fails, since @arr[*-1] returns a Failure, which lives_ok then sinks.
diakopter change the test to look for Failure 21:57
:)
jnthn Yeah, all the test regressions seem at first glance to be due to sinking failures 21:59
ah, there is a genuine bug that at least one test exposes, though 22:01
skids tests++ 22:02
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not_gerd bye, #perl6 22:03
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skids
.oO(use Test::GlaDOS)
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dalek ast: d0088f5 | jnthn++ | S (2 files):
Fix tests for Failure/sink interaction.

A couple of places sunk unhandled Failures, unintentionally. This corrects them, now that Rakudo does Failure sinking.		 22:24
kudo/nom: 45c445a | jnthn++ | src/core/Failure.pm:
Failure.sink should not throw if handled.
 22:25
kudo/nom: 8ca20db | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
Remove bogus defined test in sink handling.

This means that Failure is now correctly sunk.
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FROGGS how do I compare Bufs? == and eq doesnt work 22:26
jnthn eqv may work 22:27
FROGGS ohh ya, it is listen in Buf.pm 22:28
(that I have open...)
dalek ast: 61f8766 | jnthn++ | S (2 files):
Unfudge a couple of now-passing tests.
 22:31
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lichtkind call me janitor 22:53
jnthn hi, janitor 22:54
lichtkind unless perl 6 wiki is put off i feel obligated to clean out spam there 22:55
dalek ast: 6b0ddf1 | jnthn++ | S32-array/splice.t:
Unfudge now-passing splice tests.
 22:58
kudo/nom: 099d0ec | jnthn++ | src/core/List.pm:
Implement whatever star cases of splice.
 22:59
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lichtkind wiki is clean again 23:06
jnthn lichtkind++ 23:07
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japhb lichtkind++ 23:07
dalek p: d5c0011 | jnthn++ | src/HLL/Compiler.pm:
Fix REPL variable updating bug.
 23:11
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dalek kudo/nom: 4eca84f | jnthn++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
Bump NQP_REVISION to get REPL fix.
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jnthn TimToady: Sorry if you missed it, but if you have chance to comment on what the precedence of setops like (|) would be, it'd help me get rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=116100 fixed :) 23:16
TimToady: er, if *I* missed it!
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dalek kudo/nom: 3c475e3 | jnthn++ | src/core/operators.pm:
Fix sequences with Junction endpoints.
 23:37
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jnthn sleep & 23:59
diakopter o/

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