»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
00:35 census left
arnsholt ENOPHENNY 00:41
jnthn: There's a hardcoded REPR id for the bigint REPR in sixmodelobject.pmc I suspect is bitrotted
diakopter should be a symbol, yeah
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timotimo what does "Postcircumfix calls can be cached now." mean? o_O 00:42
diakopter invoking a thing
(I assume it means the lookup of the postcircumfix:<()> method is cacheable 00:44
)
timotimo oh, interesting
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timotimo GlitchMr: you didn't mention the merge of md-nqp for rakudo in your blog post ;) 00:45
so md got slower, but () calls get faster 00:48
hmm
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timotimo i've found a strange bug with my lexical suggestion code 02:03
hmm 02:07
when i have our sub foobar and our sub foobaz in Test.pm6 and then use Test and foobar(); foobaz(); in otherfile.pl6, i get foobar used at line 3. Did you mean '&foobaz'? 02:08
foobaz used at line 4. Did you mean '&foobar'?
lue r: {sub abc() { say "A" }; sub abd { say "B" };}; abc(); abd(); 02:14
p6eval rakudo d98dd5: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routines:␤ abc used at line 1. Did you mean '&abs'?␤ abd used at line 1. Did you mean '&abs'?␤␤»
lue r: {our sub abc() { say "A" }; our sub abd { say "B" };}; abc(); abd();
p6eval rakudo d98dd5: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routines:␤ abc used at line 1. Did you mean '&abs', '&abd'?␤ abd used at line 1. Did you mean '&abs', '&abc'?␤␤»
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timotimo lue: you found it. great! 03:56
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lue r: {our sub xyzzy() { say "A" }; our sub xyzzyx { say "B" };}; xyzzy(); xyzzyx(); # not limited to character replacement, it seems 04:15
p6eval rakudo d98dd5: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routines:␤ xyzzy used at line 1. Did you mean '&xyzzyx'?␤ xyzzyx used at line 1. Did you mean '&xyzzy'?␤␤»
timotimo the problem is the way lexicals are discovered 04:17
lue yeah. I just wanted to see if was only occurring with character replacement cases. 04:18
timotimo nah, the calculation does a full levenshtein distance search 04:20
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JimmyZ r: { our sub xyzzy() is export { say "A" }; our sub xyzzyx { say "B" };}; &xyzzy(); xyzzyx(); 04:22
p6eval rakudo d98dd5: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared name:␤ &xyzzy used at line 1␤Undeclared routine:␤ xyzzyx used at line 1. Did you mean '&xyzzy'?␤␤»
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lue r: {our sub xyzzy() { say "A" };}; xyzzy(); 04:24
p6eval rakudo d98dd5: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routine:␤ xyzzy used at line 1␤␤»
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timotimo lue: github.com/timo/rakudo/blob/nom/sr...rld.pm#L50 04:34
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Sifr Does this still hold for perl6, perldoc.perl.org/perlstyle.html ? 04:54
or is there a newer version at all?
timotimo you don't have to (and i don't think even can) use "use strict" 04:55
Sifr Oh great. Is 'use warnings' still used? 04:56
I am just figuring out a project to do in perl6/reading documentation 04:57
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sorear n: $x = 5; say $x; 05:20
p6eval niecza v24-35-g5c06e28: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Variable $x is not predeclared at /tmp/urF95bLA6X line 1:␤------> <BOL>⏏$x = 5; say $x;␤␤Variable $x is not predeclared at /tmp/urF95bLA6X line 1:␤------> $x = 5; say ⏏$x;␤␤Unhandled exc…
sorear n: no strict; $x = 5; say $x;
p6eval niecza v24-35-g5c06e28: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object␤ at Niecza.StashCursor.Core (System.String key, Boolean final, Niecza.StashCursor& sc, Niecza.Variable& v, Niecza.Variable bind_to) [0x00000] in <file…
sorear n: no strict; $x := 5; say $x;
p6eval niecza v24-35-g5c06e28: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Cannot find definition for binding??? at /tmp/zQh9Y_svSm line 1:␤------> no strict; $x := 5⏏; say $x;␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1443 (die @ 5) …
sorear hey, someone broke no strict in niecza 05:21
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isBEKaml hello, #perl6! 05:47
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isBEKaml (To any debian users here): What's the convention used by Debian to generate Debian native packages? dh_make? 06:06
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sorear isBEKaml: if you have a source package, cd into it and run "debian/rules build" 06:45
you might have to do some config step first
dh_xxx are helper commands for use by the debian/rules file. They do not need to be used by debian/rules, and should NEVER be run manually 06:46
to clarify part 2: debian/rules is free to use the helpers or not, as long as the result is the same
isBEKaml sorear: Well, the reason I asked for that info is to help in building a similar R* binary for Slackware. 06:47
sorear: I'm also looking at debian maintainers' guide. Non-relocatable binaries are a problem in building packages for slackware.
sorear: I'm currently experimenting with fakeroot to see if that helps in mitigating this problem. 06:48
sorear isBEKaml: i guess I'm unsure precisely what you're asking
debian binary packages are created using /usr/bin/ar 06:49
moritz fakeroot just fakes being a user "root"
so I don't see how it helps with relocation
sorear isBEKaml: why are you asking about debian packages if you actually want to know about slackroot packages?
isBEKaml moritz: with the cwd marked as root?
sorear isBEKaml: no
root user and root directory have literally nothing to do with each other 06:50
moritz isBEKaml: fakeroot fakes a *USER* root, not a path
isBEKaml sorear: Well, it looks like perl6 was successfully was built for debian packages. I was asking after how it does that.
moritz isBEKaml: maybe you are confusiong fakeroot with chroot?
sorear isBEKaml: by someone with the mindset to memorize thousands of pages of completely arbitrary rules spread across dozens of debian policy manuals 06:51
Oh wait
I think I get it
You're trying to find out how Debian gets around relocatability problems
isBEKaml moritz: chroot was what I thought at first - but when I looked over at debian maintainer's guide, it mentioned fakeroot.
sorear: yes
sorear It doesn't. 06:52
isBEKaml oof
moritz I think the rakudo packages build binaries that expect to be installed in /usr/
isBEKaml sorear: Doesn't debian use a sandbox folder to compile all binaries and build a final packages using relative paths?
sorear In order for something to be buildable using the standard Debian process flow, it _absolutely must_ be possible to build and install with PREFIX=$PWD/package/ and then copy the binaries to /
moritz so that means when they are built $SRC_DIR/debian/<whatever>, they simply won't work in that location 06:53
but they'll work again once copied to /usr/
sorear so you have two options:
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sorear 1. build binaries that don't work (usual approach, but for gnarly multipass build protocols like perl6 not so hot) 06:53
2. be relocatib le
isBEKaml sorear: 2. is out 06:54
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isBEKaml sorear: 1. - like you said, gnarly. I'm listening - if it's complicated, that's fine as long as we can work around it in some way or fix that problem in future. 06:55
moritz 1. isn't too bad, because the version in source dir still works
sorear I think that you're going to need to solve the relocatability problem 06:56
maybe not today, but before christmas
isBEKaml moritz: The problem I had was lib, bin and data dir paths were all compiled into binaries. *those* paths happened to point to the sandbox folder used for building packages on my machine. perl6 will fail to boot if I blow away those sandbox folders.
sorear: *christmas* ? Boy, does that ever get old? :)
moritz isBEKaml: well, you shouldn't configure parrot with a prefix of the sandbox folder 06:57
isBEKaml: you should configure parrot with a prefix of /usr
isBEKaml: and then copy to the sandbox folder anyway
isBEKaml: that way the binaries work when installed 06:58
isBEKaml moritz: so, --prefix=/usr and make DESTDIR=$SANDBOX install?
moritz isBEKaml: yes
isBEKaml moritz: I think I tried that. Let me try once again.
moritz and for build nqp, you need the parrot package already installed 07:04
and for building rakudo, you need the nqp package already installed 07:05
isBEKaml moritz: this is R* 07:06
moritz isBEKaml: well yes, but for R* you need parrot, nqp and rakudo 07:07
isBEKaml moritz: Here's the build script that I use: github.com/svatsan/RakudoStar-Slac...SlackBuild 07:08
moritz: It follows the same steps used for building R* from source + some more to get a final .txz slack package.
moritz well, I don't know much about slackware packaging 07:09
but if it takes the same approach as debian, it won't work
perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot --prefix=/usr
this step tries to install parrot into /usr 07:10
not into some install/ dir
which is why you need a separate package for parrot
rakudo and nqp need a successfully installed parrot; non-relocation means that needs to be done in a separate package 07:11
the R* approach isn't well suited for direct copying into a linux package manager
isBEKaml moritz: hmm, I already have rakudo and parrot slackbuilds. 07:18
moritz: does nqp take the same configuration as rakudo? I mean, I can bundle nqp along with rakudo?
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moritz isBEKaml: nqp takes its prefix from parrot 07:19
isBEKaml: and rakudo needs an installed nqp, afaict
so nqp needs to be a separate package
isBEKaml moritz: okay 07:20
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bonsaikitten isBEKaml: I wouldn't recommend "bundling" - let nqp be an independent package 07:39
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isBEKaml bonsaikitten: Yes, that's what I'm working on. 07:42
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diakopter . 07:55
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isBEKaml \o/ 08:58
parrot, nqp and rakudo compiled and installed successfully with slackbuild scripts! :)
moritz++, sorear++
I'll work on fetching modules later. I will now just make rakudo, nqp available from slackbuilds.org repo. 08:59
and update parrot.
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moritz isBEKaml++ 09:04
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FROGGS morning 09:16
isBEKaml FROGGS: hi (It's nearly 3pm here :) 09:27
masak greetings, #perl6
FROGGS nearly 11pm on my side :o)
moin masak
isBEKaml and morning? eh... 09:28
greetings, masak
FROGGS err, morning isBEKaml of course
FROGGS needs moar coffee
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FROGGS btw, I have heard there were attempts to support Perl 5 from rakudo directly (not blizkost), is that true? 09:30
that was years before nom I suppose?
masak .oO( good moarning )
isBEKaml FROGGS: coffee works. 09:31
moritz good masak, morning 09:34
FROGGS moritz: the workshop was great btw, 129 ppl, and very good feedback so far 09:38
but only one one p6 talk as far as I know (lichtkind about p6oo, was very good) 09:39
moritz would have loved to be there 09:40
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FROGGS moritz: well, there will be other conferences, I hope I can make it to kiev 09:41
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FROGGS I've missed thursday evening and most parts of friday because my youngest son and my wife are in hospital :/ 09:42
it looks like they will be out to wednesday or so 09:43
moritz FROGGS: I hope they get well soon 09:44
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FROGGS moritz: where would I find something about slangs in the synopsis? 09:48
moritz FROGGS: dunno 09:49
probably S02 or so 09:50
FROGGS ahh, found it perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html#Slangs
thanks
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FROGGS r: use MONKEY_TYPING; augment slang Regex { token numish { } }; 09:57
p6eval rakudo d98dd5: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Mu in string context␤use of uninitialized value of type Mu in string context␤===SORRY!===␤error:imcc:Sub 'cuid_3_1363514278.31078' not found␤␤ in file '(file unknown)' line 120␤»
FROGGS r: use MONKEY_TYPING; augment slang Regex { }; 09:58
p6eval rakudo d98dd5: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Mu in string context␤use of uninitialized value of type Mu in string context␤===SORRY!===␤error:imcc:Sub 'cuid_2_1363514288.28484' not found␤␤ in file '(file unknown)' line 337␤»
FROGGS r: use MONKEY_TYPING; augment slang MAIN { };
p6eval rakudo d98dd5: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤You tried to augment slang MAIN, but it does not exist␤at /tmp/9HE_twdGM1:1␤------> use MONKEY_TYPING; augment slang MAIN ⏏{ };␤ expecting any of:␤ scoped declarator␤ generic role␤»
moritz r: use MONKEY_TYPING; augment slang Perl6 { }; 09:59
p6eval rakudo d98dd5: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤You tried to augment slang Perl6, but it does not exist␤at /tmp/fFehxhhg23:1␤------> use MONKEY_TYPING; augment slang Perl6 ⏏{ };␤ expecting any of:␤ scoped declarator␤ generic role␤»
masak for all the cool stuff slangs purportedly do, they have a very weak level of existence.
FROGGS ahh, looks like only packages are supported right now
masak submits rakudobug for the internal Parrot error 10:00
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masak r: sub infix:<c> { $^prev * (4*$^n - 2) / ($n+1) }; constant C = [\c] 1, 1..*; sub b { return "" if !$^n; my $i = (^C[$n]).roll; for ^$n -> $n2 { my $n1 = $n - $n2 - 1; my ($s, $t) = b($n1), b($n2) and return "[$s]$t" if $i < my $p = C[$n1] * C[$n2]; $i -= $p }; die }; say b 3 10:37
p6eval rakudo d98dd5: OUTPUT«[[[]]]␤»
FROGGS masak: is that your new signature? 10:38
masak 274 characters. still far too long.
I bet people on this channel could golf this one down a fair bit... :)
tadzik hello hello 10:40
FROGGS hi tadzik
masak tadzik! \o/ 10:41
r: sub infix:<c> { $^prev * (4*$^n - 2) / ($n+1) }; constant C = [\c] 1, 1..*; sub b { return "" if !$^n; my $i = (^C[$n]).roll; for ^$n -> $n2 { my $n1 = $n - $n2 - 1; return "[{b $n1}]{b $n2}" if $i < my $p = C[$n1] * C[$n2]; $i -= $p }; die }; say b 3
p6eval rakudo d98dd5: OUTPUT«[[[]]]␤»
masak 251 characters. but that seems to have introduced a bug :/
it should be possible to turn that 'for' loop into a statement modifier, with some unholy reshuffling. 10:42
oh oh! 10:44
I know!
I can replace it all with a .first call 10:45
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FROGGS where does thind $^n come from? 10:45
masak there are two $^n. one in infix:<c> and one in b 10:46
FROGGS hmm, $^n is the thing on the left of the infix and $^prev is the thing on the right? 10:47
r: sub infix:<c> { say $^n; say $^prev; $^prev * (4*$^n - 2) / ($n+1) }; say 7 c 8
p6eval rakudo d98dd5: OUTPUT«7␤8␤26␤»
masak yeah. just found a bug there. 10:48
got the order wrong, because 'prev' gt 'n'
r: sub infix:<c> { $^prev * (4*$^n - 2) / ($n+1) }; constant C = [\c] 1, 1..*; say C[^10]
p6eval rakudo d98dd5: OUTPUT«1 1 2 6 12.571429 17.789474 22.084034 26.180561 30.234032 34.2711166␤»
masak r: sub infix:<c> { $^m * (4*$^n - 2) / ($n+1) }; constant C = [\c] 1, 1..*; say C[^10]
p6eval rakudo d98dd5: OUTPUT«1 1 2 5 14 42 132 429 1430 4862␤»
masak ah. much better.
sorear FROGGS: supporting perl 5 syntax and semantics directly in rakudo was something I agitated for at the PRS 10:52
FROGGS: i don't remember who supported what and when, but we managed to goad TimToady into dusting off the p5 grammar 10:53
i'm afraid the p5-on-rakudo project may have slid back into dormancy
masak r: sub infix:<c> { $^m * (4*$^n - 2) / ($n+1) }; constant C = [\c] 1, 1..*; sub b { return "" if !$^n; my $i = (^C[$n]).roll; my $n1 = ([\+] map { C[$n - $_ - 1] * C[$_] }, ^$n).pairs.first(*.value > $i).key; return "[{b $n1}]{b $n - $n1 - 1}" }; say b 3 10:54
p6eval rakudo d98dd5: OUTPUT«[][[]]␤»
spider-mario even without being able to directly embed p5 syntax in a p6 lexical scope, being able to communicate with external p5 code would be neat
masak g'ah! still 251 characters.
spider-mario is that still planned? 10:55
masak but perhaps easier to compress this one...
r: sub infix:<c> { $^m * (4*$^n - 2) / ($n+1) }; constant C = [\c] 1, 1..*; sub b { $^n or return ""; my $i = (^C[$n]).roll; my $n1 = ([\+] map { C[$n - $_ - 1] * C[$_] }, ^$n).pairs.first(*.value > $i).key; return "[{b $n1}]{b $n - $n1 - 1}" }; say b 3
p6eval rakudo d98dd5: OUTPUT«[[][]]␤» 10:56
FROGGS spider-mario: it is, that's why there is blizkost
spider-mario ok, thanks. :)
FROGGS spider-mario: there is just a lack of devs
sorear: PRS?
spider-mario I think I lack knowledge to help but I should have a look anyway, I guess 10:57
sorear spider-mario: there are a couple of partially independant quesitons here. Embed p5 in p6? Support p5 code? Support XS/bug-compatibility?
blizkost is a great approach for #3, and can probably be made to support #1, but is lousy for #2
performance sucks and there are a ton of semantic traps with the interface
spider-mario I’m not sure how useful #2 would actually be 10:58
I can’t think of any relevant use case
sorear a reimplementation of Perl 5 on top of NQP gives you a much better shot at #1 and #2
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FROGGS sorear: right 10:58
well, using Perl 5 modules from within rakudo is #2, right? 10:59
sorear spider-mario: #2 is the one that matters. Like I'm currently busy writing a pure-perl-5 parser for ASC X12 and UN/EDIFACT files
spider-mario oops, sorry, I mixed them up
I meant #1
sorear it does not need XS, but it'll be awesome if you don't have to rewrite for 6
yeah #1 is less compelling
FROGGS: perl reunification summit 11:00
FROGGS ahh, yeah
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FROGGS sorear: have to prepare lunch now, but I am thinking about how to inject Perl 5 into nqp, my first test arn't that successful yet, but I've spend only a few hours yet 11:03
masak .oO( you dawg, I know you like Perl, so I put Perl 5 in your Perl 6 so you can Perl while you Perl ) 11:04
FROGGS tried to let a block like '{:p5' ~ '}' hook into another grammar, but I only get "Method 'ast' not found for invocant of class 'NQPMu'" and I dont know where that happens 11:06
that as in rakudo though, will do that then in nqp
sorear yo masak 11:13
FROGGS: look at how categoricals work 11:14
the spec syntax isn't that, the spec syntax is use v6;
use v5; rather
and it can occur anywhere in a block
this isn't hard to implement, and it makes it consistant with every other scoped change
mberends Git users might enjoy The Git Parable by github's founder tom.preston-werner.com/2009/05/19/t...rable.html (linked from #Node.js, btw sorear, you might like to lurk there) 11:15
sorear well actuallly it is hard, but not for you because jnthn++ already put all the work in
FROGGS sorear: thanks, every input is welcome :o)
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masak yo sorear 11:33
jnthn afternoon, #perl6 o/ 11:34
masak \o
jnthn It's sunny! \o/
masak oh yeah, you're right!
perfect day to sit inside and hack! 11:35
jnthn :P
FROGGS hehe 11:37
masak & 11:38
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FROGGS jnthn: this allows me to execute a statement within another %*LANGuage? github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/db...8bd5f5fa59 11:42
does that mean it gets parsed using another grammar? 11:43
jnthn That's just meaning that %*LANG are temporaried per statementlist
So language changes down inside that scope don't leak up to outer ones. 11:44
FROGGS if I change Main or Regex or Q or so...
so, what exactly do I have to do to add a language? :P 11:45
my first attempt was to add Perl6::P5Grammar and ...::P5Actions, and nibble a block into it, but I really should do that in nqp 11:47
jnthn Well, the initial set of languages is set up in %*LANG up in TOP, or maybe comp_unit 11:48
If you look there you'll see an entry for Perl 5 regex langauge, for example
Then if you search for the same key you should see some use of LANG to do the language switch itself. 11:49
LANG also sets $*ACTIONS
Again, based on %*LANG
%*LANG represents the current braid of langauges 11:50
If we were to declare a new operator, then write a regex, then put a Perl 6 block inside of that regex, the language should be the Perl 6 with the new operator, not the base Perl 6 language.
It's the contextual/temporized nature of %*LANG that makes that happen. 11:51
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FROGGS jnthn: that's the diff: gist.github.com/FROGGS/f2d7c5f145af54eecf3f I thought this should let this work: ./perl6 -e '{:p5 7 }' 11:57
atm I dont know if quibble, sibble, nibble or shwivvle is right/wrong 11:58
jnthn FROGGS: p5 isn't a quote language :) 12:03
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FROGGS jnthn: is there a method I could use instead? 12:04
jnthn Hm, moment
hm, we actually do nibble regexes that way... 12:05
hoelzro ahoy #perl6 12:06
jnthn no, seems nibble is what you want
hoelzro I added posixerrno to NQP today; would someone mind looking over my changes? github.com/hoelzro/nqp
jnthn FROGGS: Well, the thing is...
FROGGS: quote_lang sets up various starter/stopper things too 12:07
FROGGS: It then calls a method nibbler inside of the target language
arnsholt jnthn: So I'm thinking that I need to set up something more or less similar to what GlobalContext does on JVM 12:08
FROGGS jnthn: ohh okay, I previously had nibble, and the nibbler+do_nibbling inside 12:09
jnthn FROGGS: Looking at STD around github.com/perl6/std/blob/master/STD.pm6#L1438 12:10
It seems that for Perl 5 it sets up a new braid entirely
Then switches to it
For now though you could just try something like <LANG('P5', 'statementlist')> or so 12:11
arnsholt: The easiest way is to root it somewhere in Parrot's namespace system. 12:12
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masak hello from a train! :) 12:12
pmurias hoelzro: tests when adding new opcodes would be great 12:13
masak has anyone given any thought about the composability of language mutations?
hoelzro pmurias: noted! but are the values of errno portable?
masak I have a feeling slangs are a lot less composable than roles...
arnsholt jnthn: That makes sense, yeah. So it'll be a Parrot hash containing the various things we care about, right? 12:14
jnthn arnsholt: That's probably the easiest way, yes...it's fine unless we have to look them up really often, then it'll get slow I guess..
arnsholt: Maybe better to make it work at all first, though... 12:15
arnsholt That true. But I'll go for easy for now, and refactor for speed later, if it turns out to be a problem
Yeah. Make it run, make it right, make if fast and all that 12:16
pmurias hoelzro: neither the man page or msdn docs document the exact integer values
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jnthn arnsholt: On the HLL stuff, one thing to keep in mind is that Parrot already has some stuff in this space. 12:17
arnsholt: Of note, subs already have a HLL_id. And it'd be nice if we could make sure we map well with that for doing stuff like "is this an object of the current language" cheaply.
arnsholt Point 12:18
hoelzro pmurias: I guess that it should test that it's non-zero for failures?
is the value of errno defined for success?
hoelzro guesses no
arnsholt I think errno is only set on an actual error
hoelzro probably
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jnthn hoelzro: Also I'd group the op in Operations.nqp into the native call related section 12:19
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FROGGS ===SORRY!=== 12:24
Method 'statementlist' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6::P5Grammar'
\o/
hoelzro ok, good suggestion!
FROGGS jnthn++
pmurias if we have errno shouldn't we also have a way to portably look up error codes?
hoelzro that's probably a good idea 12:26
pmurias as otherwise it's not very usefull
btw what do we need that for? 12:28
masak .oO( otherwise it won't contain a bit of information! oh wait )
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arnsholt pmurias: Is that even possible? I think most of them are just C #defines 12:34
hoelzro arnsholt: I think we'd need a map of names -> values 12:35
so add_map("ENOMEM", ENOMEM)
arnsholt Right, that'll work 12:36
And sprinkle some #ifdef on top when some platforms have that code 12:37
hoelzro pmurias: I was adding it for my POSIX module, but others said it would be pretty useful generally
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masak r: sub b { sub C { $^n ?? C($n-1) * (4*$^n - 2) / ($n+1) !! 1 }; return "" if !$^n; my $i = (^C($n)).roll; "[{b $_}]{b $n - $_ - 1}" given ([\+] map { C($n - $_ - 1) * C($_) }, ^$n).pairs.first(*.value > $i).key }; say b 3 13:11
p6eval rakudo d98dd5: OUTPUT«[][][]␤»
masak 219 characters.
jnthn Still can't tweet it :P
masak heh. 13:12
I think it's possible to get under 140, fwiw.
we're coming up on a year-long search for good solutions to this problem. maybe more than one year. 13:13
I'm getting ready to blog it. 13:14
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moritz masak: speaking of blogging, how's the t2 review coming along? 13:51
masak moritz: I'm on a train. meaning to start looking at t2 during this train journey. 14:01
it'll be a fun one to review ;)
though there is some t1 fallout that I should be looking at first.
contestants actually emailed me with some feedback on my review of their program. it's the first time that happens, I believe. 14:02
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moritz right, I only commented on the reviews per IRC :-) 14:17
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masak learns about (and is sligtly shocked by) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richardson%27s_theorem 14:30
it's as if "any sufficiently advanced algebra is indistinguishable from an algorithm", and then the algorithm suffers the usual problems of undecidability. 14:32
I can sort of see it with |x|, because the abs function contains an if statement. 14:33
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masak the author of github.com/masak/p6cc2012/blob/mas...ew/pkai.md wrote back, but he doesn't seem to have any objects. just wanted to talk about the review a bit. fair enough :) 14:37
jnthn
.oO( no objects, just functions )
 14:38
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masak I had pointed out that .uniq would have been better in a certain case. he supplanted with the fact that it would't work straight off, but would need conversion to Str first. (because .uniq uses === semantics) 14:39
which is a good point, but not one that I feel is necessary to add to the review. 14:40
now, the author of github.com/masak/p6cc2012/blob/mas...w/bruce.md has a slightly more interesting argument he wants to make.
he says I may have miscategorized his algorithm as exponential, and he lays out the case for why it isn't. 14:41
this clearly requires my attention.
he ends the email with "Please do not feel obligated to revisit my code." -- but I do feel I should, if only to lay to rest a possible miscategorization. 14:42
jnthn uniq is spec'd as ===; I think I fixed that in Rakudo a bit ago
masak he wrote his email on the 24th. I replied on the same day with "I will read your explanation carefully and ponder whether it actually proves that the algorithm runs faster than I thought. If it does I will definitely revisit my review. Before looking closely at it though, I kinda doubt it'd be O(n), since even Gaussian elimination is O(n**3)."
more generally, I don't think an algorithm which has to correlate info across n things *can* be O(n) 14:43
the structure of this problem is "A: B is a liar; B: no, A is a liar" -- all the structure has to be extracted from the utterances and traversed. I think it's comparable to sorting, so O(n**2) at least. 14:45
jnthn Sorting can be n*log(n) 14:46
masak yes.
but I've yet to see a sorting algorithm whose *worst case* isn't O(n**2) or worse. 14:48
anyway, I doubt someone solved t1 in linear time. the claim is wrong enough on the surface to merit examination. :) 14:49
hm, his argument is interesting. I'm going to post it here as a gist. 14:52
jnthn masak: mergesort is n*log(n) worst case
probably a bunch of others
masak hm, ok. 14:55
anyway, superlinear.
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masak here's the email and my response: gist.github.com/masak/5181910 14:56
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masak hm, I think I can easily show that the algorithm isn't O(n). 14:58
both "put into set" and "check whether X is in a set" are non-constant operations. 14:59
jnthn masak: Oh? If the set is backed by a hash, those operations are O(1)? 15:04
jnthn goes for a walk 15:05
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masak gist updated with my reasoning: gist.github.com/masak/5181910 15:25
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masak there. now I'm freed up to work on t2 reviews ;) 15:26
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pmichaud good morning, #perl6 15:31
arnsholt 'lo pmichaud 15:32
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rindolf pmichaud: good morning. 15:35
pmichaud: how are you this fine Sunday?
masak pmichaud! \o/ 15:36
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pmichaud rindolf: I'm doing okay so far. :) 15:37
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rindolf pmichaud: nice. 15:43
pmichaud: what are you working on?
pmichaud at the moment, just catching up on email and news :) 15:44
and backscroll 15:46
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FROGGS jnthn: I copied all from Perl6::Grammar/Actions to Perl6::P5Grammar/P5Actions, so '{:p5' ~ '}' is working (almost) fine... now I just need to make it more Perl5y 15:49
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rindolf pmichaud: nice. 15:54
jnthn FROGGS: tbh, I'd suggest you start small and build towards STD_P5 15:57
o/ pmichaud
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arnsholt discovers that he forgot to commit his changes from last night 16:04
's what happens when you get too caught up in the hacking, I suppose =)
FROGGS jnthn: I guess I will use STD_P5 as a preset only for the grammar, and take most parts of the actions from rakudo 16:07
masak .oO( I have discovered a truly remarkable solution to this problem which my memory is too small to push )
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isBEKaml masak: Fermat? :) 16:08
jnthn FROGGS: Well, even there things will be interesting due to semantic differences. I guess it's an interesting experiment though...and if it's -Ofun for you to hack on, go for it :) 16:09
masak isBEKaml: well spotted. 16:14
geekosaur .oO { I fermatted over my patches } 16:15
isBEKaml
.oO( and they were too small! )
 16:16
FROGGS jnthn: well, I dont think we'll have problems if everything will still be an object, as long as "normal" Perl 5 code works 16:19
LlamaRider FROGGS++ I'd be very interested in watching your progress if you're hosting this somewhere public, maybe even contribute if I understand enough 16:22
FROGGS LlamaRider: be back in a bit... 16:25
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masak .oO( git fermat-patch ) 16:26
isBEKaml yeah, that's what caught me - fermat compressor! :P 16:27
er, compression 16:29
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arnsholt jnthn: Is there anything I should keep in sixmodelobject.pmc's current VTABLE_get_iter()? 16:57
Or rather, should I keep the vtable mapping for get_iter?
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FROGGS LlamaRider: about hosting in public: it will be a branch of the rakudo repo 17:07
jnthn: it is more like -Oneed that -Ofun I suppose :o) 17:09
*than
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jnthn arnsholt: It may be depended on somewhere... Check BOOTSTRAP.pm in Rakudo; I have a suspicion that something relies on it there. 17:14
arnsholt: Maybe for stashes
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pmichaud (generic note while working on the 2013.02 .msi) It would be better to not have a Star release than to create a release that fails tests. 17:20
moritz it fails its tests? 17:22
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masak I agree. if we generate a release (compiler or distribution) that fails its own tests, then there is something wrong with the release process. 17:23
pmichaud the 2013.02 release failed tests is bailador and perl6-lwp-simple
s/is/in/
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pmichaud (failures were on my linux box) 17:24
FROGGS jnthn: what do I need to do to split up the Perl6/Grammar.pm so that the parts are concatenated before compiling? 17:25
pmichaud I'm not so concerned about failures in compiler releases; after all, we can fudge. But in distribution releases, where we aim for at least some form of stability, having failing modules is a Bad Thing.
FROGGS dont wanna have a 6k+ lines big file
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jnthn FROGGS: I'd just put the P5 bits in separate files and compile them as separate moduels 17:26
FROGGS: Rather do a "use"
FROGGS: We may even want to investigate load-on-first-use.
pmichaud I'm going to update the star release guide to say "if there are any failures in modules-test, stop."
jnthn pmichaud: +1
moritz speaking of stability 17:27
did we ever get around to nailing down a deprecation policy? 17:28
pmichaud for Star, or for the compiler, or ... ?
moritz star
though iirc we got zero feedback
pmichaud don't think we nailed one down, no. 17:29
FROGGS jnthn: the funny thing is that it doesnt matter that I added 3k lines, it compiles exactly as fast as without it
jnthn: so this gen-cat script is looking for 'use'-statements?
jnthn FROGGS: gen-cat just concatentates things
I'm saying compile the P5 things you're doing into a separate PBC 17:30
And then "use" that module from where you need it
dalek ar: 1e25cdd | pmichaud++ | tools/star/release-guide.pod:
Update release-guide to stop release process (and file tickets) if tests do not pass.
 17:33
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arnsholt jnthn: Right. I'll keep it for now and we can see what happens if it's torn out later 17:37
pmurias FROGGS: re -Oneed just embedding the perl5 interpreter would be much easier then reimplementing perl5 17:43
pmichaud Is zavolaj expected to run under Windows? 17:44
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FROGGS pmurias: well, shuffling Perl 6 objects to Perl 5 isnt that easy 17:45
jnthn pmichaud: Should do. After all, I did all the initial development on Windows... 17:46
pmurias: It's worth doing both approaches, imo. They're have different strengths/weaknesses. 17:47
pmichaud jnthn: hmm. github.com/rakudo/star/issues/20
FROGGS .oO( There Is More Than One Way We Do It(TM) ) 17:48
jnthn pmichaud: That looks like recently added tests using a type that MSVC doesn't know natively
pmichaud I'm using gcc, but okay. Still there's a failure :) 17:49
jnthn t/05-arrays.c:65:5: error: unknown type name 'int8_t'
I'm pretty sure the failure is while compiling the library it runs the tests against
arnsholt: Any ideas on ^? Maybe just use "char"? :)
pmichaud feel free to assign tickets :) github.com/rakudo/star/issues?state=open 17:50
pmurias jnthn: yes, both approaches would be usefull
arnsholt Hmm. That's odd... 17:52
FROGGS .oO( are they even when both are odd? )
dalek kudo-js: 8964ead | (Pawel Murias)++ | runtime/serialization.js:
Split up long line to pleas gjslint.
 17:53
kudo-js: 73c3d15 | (Pawel Murias)++ | / (8 files):
Update to new version of nqp.
kudo-js: a5814e4 | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/QAST/Compiler/JavaScript.nqp:
Remove dead code.
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arnsholt jnthn: Anyways, I wouldn't be opposed to replacing int8_t with char. But if int8_t doesn't exist, do any of the other int types exist? 17:54
jnthn arnsholt: good question... 17:55
LlamaRider FROGGS: So are you thinking of reimplementing the P5 interpreter in NQP? Or in P6? Or something different yet. 17:56
jnthn would guess FROGGS is thinking of doing P5 -> QAST
arnsholt jnthn: Oh, and a thing from last night: sixmodelobject.pmc has a hardcoded value for the bigint REPR id I'm pretty sure is bitrotted. Could you take a look? 17:57
dalek ar: c918f60 | pmichaud++ | tools/star/release-guide.pod:
Rephrase the stop-release note a little more strongly.
jnthn arnsholt: I've been bumping that by hand for a bit, knowing I really should fix it...
arnsholt: Will have a think on how to do it. 17:58
arnsholt 'k
pmichaud I'd like to see p5 on nqp, myself.
jnthn *nod*
FROGGS LlamaRider: jnthn guesses right
jnthn arnsholt: The test fail certainly fails to compile here for zavolaj 17:59
FROGGS LlamaRider: I'm trying to port std/STD_P5.pm6 to rakudo
arnsholt Right. Using the MS C compiler?
jnthn yeah
gut...Pm got it with gcc too...
gcc on Windows but still...
arnsholt: tdistler.com/2011/11/13/adding-stdi...ual-studio 18:00
arnsholt OH NOES! 18:01
I didn't know those types were C99
jnthn So if I fix that things look better
for that test at least 18:02
arnsholt From a quick grep it seems that's the only C file that uses those types 18:03
masak (p5 on nqp)++
jnthn 06 too
arnsholt Oh, right you are. I fail at reading \= 18:04
jnthn Pushed fixes for those two
arnsholt s/=\\/=)
dalek volaj: 4638245 | jnthn++ | t/0 (2 files):
s/int8_t/char/ (C89 compat)
arnsholt Cheers!
jnthn I do get a couple of failures on MSVC still
But not due to failing to compile C code
LlamaRider FROGGS: When that succeeds, how much rope would it provide? I.e. what parts of P5 would be usable in Rakudo?
jnthn Curious if Pm gets them on gcc on ~Windows...
arnsholt Definitely 18:05
dalek kudo/nom: 2a41b33 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.pm:
Two pir:: => nqp:: in the optimizer.
FROGGS LlamaRider: if everything goes well, all pure Perl5 modules (with only pure Perl 5 deps) should work 18:06
LlamaRider FROGGS: Nice!
jnthn That sounds like a good bit of work ;)
dalek rl6-most-wanted: f3476f6 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | most-wanted/bindings.md:
I don't think GeoIP is an XML parser. ;-)
 18:07
arnsholt Hmm. I don't think "invoke() not implemented in class 'NQPRoutine'" is supposed to happen ^_^ 18:10
dalek p/vmarray-list: 37bad15 | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | src/ (3 files):
Set up a BOOTArray type.
 18:18
p/vmarray-list: d65d88f | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | src/ (2 files):
Make nqp::hlllist return the BOOTArray type.

Implement ITER boolification and set up BOOTIter type.
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arnsholt Aww. I killed the bot again =( 18:18
jnthn You commit too hard :)
arnsholt++
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arnsholt Or push too rarely ;) 18:19
Anyways, could you take a look at the head commit in that branch? First stab at global context stuff
jnthn Looks sane, overall 18:22
Apart from leaving behind a commented out line ;) 18:23
arnsholt Whoops ^_^
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LlamaRider Is Rakudo's spectest supposed to run error-free? It fails for me at S32-temporal 18:34
moritz worked here last I tried 18:35
LlamaRider: how young/old is your rakudo?
LlamaRider fresh checkout from 2 hours ago
but I had the error a few days back as well, so it's not something too recent 18:36
moritz rebuilding here...
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LlamaRider I rebuilt rakudo, running the spectest again 18:42
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p/vmarray-list: 461b2eb | (Arne Skjærholt)++ | src/pmc/sixmodelobject.pmc:
Create iterators for objects with the VMArray REPR.
arnsholt jnthn: With that latest commit, the next error to remove is that some piece of code expects VTABLE_get_string_keyed to be implemented 19:00
Should I try to dispatch to VTABLE_get_pmc_keyed and coerce the return value of that to STRING, or is something else needed? 19:01
LlamaRider moritz: I'm still getting the error. In "t/spec/S32-temporal/local.rakudo" Failed tests: 7-22 19:05
seems to be something very minor in any case 19:08
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masak I'm idly thinking of that Perl 6 course I mentioned last week. 19:32
kind of excited about the idea :)
what day of the week would suit people best, do you think? assume we dedicate four hours of undivided attention to the course. it will likely be afternoon/evening CET, and morning/noon AST/CST/EST. 19:34
(unless people in Asia really want in, but so fat that hasn't happened) 19:35
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szabgab rakudo: say sprintf "<a>%s </a>", 42 19:47
p6eval rakudo 2a41b3: OUTPUT«<a>42 </a>␤»
szabgab rakudo: say sprintf "<a>%s</a>", 42
p6eval rakudo 2a41b3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable '%s' is not declared␤at /tmp/qBXRpevGDa:1␤------> say sprintf "<a>%s</a>⏏", 42␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤»
szabgab how can I do the latter properly?
rakudo: say sprintf '<a>%s</a>', 42
p6eval rakudo 2a41b3: OUTPUT«<a>42</a>␤»
szabgab rakudo: say sprintf '<a>%s</a>\n', 42
p6eval rakudo 2a41b3: OUTPUT«<a>42</a>\n␤»
szabgab ...with a trailing newline? 19:48
FROGGS rakudo: say sprintf "<a>\%s</a>\n", 42
p6eval rakudo 2a41b3: OUTPUT«<a>42</a>␤␤»
FROGGS szabgab: escape it
szabgab I could have guessed
thanks
FROGGS :o)
moritz r: say Q:b "<a>%s</a>\n", 42
p6eval rakudo 2a41b3: OUTPUT«<a>%s</a>␤42␤»
masak szabgab: if you want '%s' to mean "directive" and not "hash variable", don't put it in qq quotes :)
moritz r: say sprintf Q:b "<a>%s</a>\n", 42 19:49
p6eval rakudo 2a41b3: OUTPUT«<a>42</a>␤␤»
moritz szabgab: or like this
masak r: say sprintf q[<a>%s</a>], 42
p6eval rakudo 2a41b3: OUTPUT«<a>42</a>␤»
moritz the Q:b enables backslash escapes, but not hash interpolation
szabgab ah
masak rn: say sprintf "<a>%s\</a>\n", 42 19:50
p6eval rakudo 2a41b3, niecza v24-35-g5c06e28: OUTPUT«<a>42</a>␤␤»
masak escaping the < also works.
_sri www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3156/ # very interesting PEP about non-blocking I/O and event loops, if perl6 would manage to provide all those features too it would already be significantly better than perl5
szabgab masak, moritz , FROGGS thank you! 19:51
_sri a simple thing like non-blocking gethostbyname() is something perl5 can't do
geekosaur "perl5" can't, perl5's Net::DNS can 19:52
_sri not the same
szabgab moritz: I wanted to ask you about p6doc , would it be ok to integrated the indexer in the p6doc and to add features that will enable p6doc split
_sri you want the platform specific stuff too
DNS only sucks
lue hello world o/ 19:53
masak lue! \o/
_sri geekosaur: when you look at modern event loops like libuv you'll notice that they all warp gethostbyname() in a pool of threads
*wrap
moritz szabgab: yes. You just have to figure out where to install generated files like an index 19:54
geekosaur is actually using Net::DNS for that in a custom event loop already
szabgab moritz: ok, so when the tuits come again I'll try to do that 19:55
_sri geekosaur: i don't think you understand the problem
geekosaur I understand that arbitrary code already using the builtins can't be made to use asynch dns, if that's your point 19:56
moritz LlamaRider: I just see that the timezone tests skip tests depending on the local timezone 19:59
LlamaRider: which might explain why I don't see the failures you get
_sri geekosaur: my point is that gethostbyname() or getaddrinfo() check other sources than DNS too, such as mDNS on OS X or all those Windows specific services
dalek c: f4d12f3 | (Gabor Szabo)++ | lib/Str.pod:
sprintf examples
 20:00
LlamaRider moritz: The discrepancy was using a + instead of a - in the date syntax. I updated the spectest and am rerunning again, will give you a specific diff in a minute
_sri geekosaur: if your event loop uses Net::DNS exclusively, it's a very bad event loop i'm afraid 20:01
just like AnyEvent::DNS is basically terrible
LlamaRider er, or is this really a time zone difference that's exactly 10 hours? 20:02
# got: '2007-01-01T21:22:00+0500'
# expected: '2007-01-01T21:22:00-0500'
geekosaur actually it's fine for its intended purpose
LlamaRider is certain he misread the date syntax anyway, it has been a while since i worked with DateTime things 20:03
_sri geekosaur: i'm talking about general purpose resolvers, and you chimed in and claimed that Net::DNS can do it well 20:04
moritz LlamaRider: yes, could be a typo
geekosaur I pointed out it existed. I don't think I made a claim that it was the ultimate fix, but it could be part of one
moritz LlamaRider: do you have commit access to the spectests?
LlamaRider I am pretty sure I don't , I have never asked for anything of the sort
moritz LlamaRider: if not, what's your github ID? 20:05
LlamaRider moritz: dginev
_sri point is, if perl6 can wrap getaddrinfo() in a bunch of threads it is already way ahead of perl5 20:06
moritz LlamaRider: you should now have write access to perl6/roast (and a bunch of other repos)
_sri geekosaur: no it can't be part of one, since it doesn't get you any further in reaching all those platform specific services
LlamaRider moritz: well, that escalated quickly :) thanks. Will patch it up, when I am sure it's really a typo 20:07
geekosaur so every platform is guaranteed to have a nonblocking interface to whatever services it provides?
and perl is guaranteed to know what it is?
that's at least as much of a leap as assuming that a "custom event loop" must be general purpose according to whatever definition you're using (but not saying, of couse) 20:08
_sri geekosaur: do you know what getaddrinfo() is?
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LlamaRider moritz: There's more to it than a simple typo, will have to get to understand the DateTime implementation better to figure it out. Will do that later today. 20:23
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moritz LlamaRider++ # looking into test failures 20:24
jnthn back 20:32
arnsholt: repr funcs don't do coercion; you're meant to use the op to match the type of the elements. However, Parrot's v-tables have tended to not make that distinction (same in some other places, where boxing/unboxing was confused with coercion). In nqpjvm they're de-confused; atpos_s means the thing underneath must have elements that are native strings, for example. 20:35
_sri: Thanks for the link; added it to my reading list :)
_sri is amazed with the quality of many PEPs 20:37
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LlamaRider r: say ~$*TZ 21:14
p6eval rakudo 2a41b3: OUTPUT«<local time zone>␤»
LlamaRider How can I see its value? it either prints ^^ or just prints $*TZ back 21:15
lue r: say $*TZ 21:17
p6eval rakudo 2a41b3: OUTPUT«$*TZ␤»
jnthn r: say $*TZ.WHAT 21:18
p6eval rakudo 2a41b3: OUTPUT«(DateTime-local-timezone)␤»
jnthn r: say $*TZ.^methods(:local)
p6eval rakudo 2a41b3: OUTPUT«postcircumfix:<( )> offset of returns Str perl␤»
jnthn r: say $*TZ.offset
p6eval rakudo 2a41b3: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 3␤ in method offset at src/gen/CORE.setting:11653␤ in block at /tmp/t5yKJ5m4fW:1␤␤»
jnthn Hm :)
r: say $*TZ.Str
p6eval rakudo 2a41b3: OUTPUT«<local time zone>␤»
jnthn Beats me... 21:19
lue r: my $a = DateTime.new(now); say $a; say $*TZ.offset($a,0);
p6eval rakudo 2a41b3: OUTPUT«DateTime.new(year => 2013, month => 3, day => 17, hour => 21, minute => 19, second => 29.830353975296e0)␤3600␤»
cognominal trying to compile the post merge rakudo on a mac, I get this error :
multi_dispatch.c:98:9: error: void function 'add_to_cache' should not return a value [-Wreturn-type]
return NULL;
LlamaRider r: DateTime.new(:timezone => $*TZ).timezone.say 21:20
p6eval rakudo 2a41b3: OUTPUT«Default constructor for 'DateTime' only takes named arguments␤ in method new at src/gen/CORE.setting:731␤ in method new at src/gen/CORE.setting:726␤ in block at /tmp/dK1yS6Qiom:1␤␤»
LlamaRider r: DateTime.new(:timezone($*TZ)).timezone.say
p6eval rakudo 2a41b3: OUTPUT«$*TZ␤»
LlamaRider that's one shy variable 21:21
cognominal indeed the declaration is : void add_to_cache(PARROT_INTERP, NQP_md_cache *cache, PMC *capture, INTVAL num_args, PMC *result);
arnsholt jnthn: Hmm, right. That's no fun 21:22
dalek p: 39d7d37 | jnthn++ | src/guts/multi_dispatch.c:
Fix copy-pasto (void function returning value).

  cognominal++ for reporting.		 21:24
cognominal jnthn++ for the hard work 21:25
jnthn arnsholt: Well, it's a mismatch
arnsholt: OTOH, the NQP code-base as largely been updated to avoid such mismatches
arnsholt: Otherwise nothing would work over on the JVM. And it works enough to self-host, so... :) 21:26
21:26 pmurias left
arnsholt Right. So tracking down the offending piece of code and replacing it with list_s should be acceptable, right? 21:28
jnthn arnsholt: Yes, or tweaking the op it uses
arnsholt: There are some bogus use of atpos_s around too 21:29
arnsholt Right, right
jnthn arnsholt: I think I sync'd most I found back over to NQP land but maybe not
arnsholt I'll try to merge master into my branch first 21:31
Might be a commit I've missed since I branched off
LlamaRider Reading Temporal.pm, $*TZ is a singleton object of DateTime-local-timezone, in the end being syntax sugar for its offset method, which does some pir magic 21:34
the Str method in that class looks like a stub to me. 21:35
21:40 PacoAir left 21:46 am0c joined
arnsholt jnthn: The backtraces from NQP compilation errors are a bit useless, it seems =/ 21:51
Or maybe not... 21:52
There we go, I think 21:53
jnthn: I think the offender is stable_publish_vtable_mapping in nqp::ops, which does VTABLE_shift_string 21:55
Or maybe not, come to think of it 21:56
It's iterating over a hash, which shouldn't touch any of my code
jnthn hm, yeah...I think that's an iterator it's shifting off 22:02
arnsholt Hmm. If it's called from one of the NQP custom ops, I might be able to do something clever with GDB 22:04
22:08 vaelxon left
arnsholt Oh, there we go. It was indeed stable_publish_vtable_mapping 22:10
Oh, now I see 22:11
jnthn: stable_publish_vtable_mapping uses a heterogenous list. The first element is a PMC, the second one is a STRING. Thoughts?
jnthn arnsholt: Hm, and that's Parrot specific and also probably on the chopping block at some point... 22:13
I'd pull them out with the get_pmc form of the aggregate, and then get_string it in the op.
arnsholt Indeed it is. It's called directly as a pir::op as well
Yeah, that was my first thought as well 22:14
22:16 m0ss left
LlamaRider Who is maintaining the P6 DateTime code in Temporal.pm ? I'm wondering why it has been implemented the way it was and if the timezone logic shouldn't be rewritten to follow much more closely the P5 DateTime::TimeZone 22:28
arnsholt jnthn: Found some spurious atpos_s in NQPMu's BUILDALL, in case you want a list 22:29
22:30 spider-mario left
arnsholt I suspect I'm going to kill the bot again 22:31
arnsholt pushes
dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 17 commits to nqp/vmarray-list by arnsholt
arnsholt Oh, good bot! =D
masak LlamaRider: everyone and no-one is the maintainer, I guess. I initiated the last Temporal refactor, but the code was quickly appropriated and improved by various people. 22:38
LlamaRider: there have been suggestions now and then that we take a wider grasp around timezone handling. my response is always the same: "go ahead, commit away! if we like the result enough, we'll put it in the spec, too!" 22:39
LlamaRider masak: I am getting timezone failures in the spectest and when I debugged my way into the timezone code my instinct was to rewrite rather than patch.
masak what kind of timezone failures? why did you feel like rewriting instead of patching? 22:40
LlamaRider well, the timezones were mismatched, in a variety of ways. I suspect there is more than one bug there. I can upload a gist if you wish. 22:41
I felt like rewriting since timezones are a lie in the current code - they're just syntax sugar behind doing offset arithmetic
at least that's the impression I got from the DateTime-local-timezone class 22:42
masak if something is outright wrong in Temporal, then of course we should fix that. 22:44
and yes, I got that impression too last time I looked at both the spec and the Rakudo implementation.
LlamaRider well, a timezone is just an Int that has a negative or positive number of minutes in it. But $*TZ isn't conforming to that and is being the above-mentioned syntax sugar. I have gripes mainly with $*TZ right now
masak we need to be really, really clear how we handle timezones. 22:45
please outline what you observe and what you expected. :)
jnthn I think part of the idea was that it's an invokable
22:45 cognominal left
LlamaRider Well, I didn't expect anything since I am not an experienced DateTime user myself. But I did expect $*TZ to be a real variable, in the sense that it has a value. Instead it is a singleton object that has no timezone value in itself but is a facade for an offset method. 22:47
masak jnthn: it can be invokable. 22:49
LlamaRider that's the other inconsistency btw - most of the Temporal code thinks of timezones as Ints of minutes, except when dealing with $*TZ. I'm not too sure how that is even working right now, still staring at the code. 22:50
masak I'm pretty sure I wasn't the one who messed up $*TZ the way it is now. we should think about killing our darlings a bit there, I believe. 22:51
LlamaRider github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/...al.pm#L430 22:53
This guy takes care that both Ints and the singleton object will work. 22:54
masak .oO( this little pig went to town )
I want to kill $*TZ being a Callable in spec, and make it just an Int. any objections? 22:55
LlamaRider I don't know enough to have any. Sounds sane to me. 22:57
Also, the next 2 weeks should be quite nice for stress testing DateTime. DST is on from March 10 here (in the US), while it's only March 30 in Europe. That ought to cause troubles. 23:07
masak again, patch away. all I know is I won't be the one adding full time zone support to Rakudo. :) 23:09
jnthn Oh hah... When we do the upcoming DST change here in Sweden, I'll be away on vacation...in a country that doesn't do DST. :) 23:10
LlamaRider The spec doesn't mention anything about the nature of $*TZ ... I guess I will switch it to an int and refactor... Though to actually compute the TZ I will need to port some of the DateTime::Timezone magic. Will see 23:20
Also, now I feel awkward since moritz threw push permissions on me and I don't know how the submission cycle to rakudo works. Should I wait for someone to review my code in a branch and then push it? Or just push directly in Temporal.pm? 23:21
masak right. I guess the proposal is to put more of such magic in src/core/Temporal.pm
LlamaRider: short answer: do what you feel is appropriate.
do a branch if you're unsure. do a direct commit if you're relatively sure.
run the spectests more often than I usually do ;)
LlamaRider ok, let's see how this ends up. thanks :) 23:22
jnthn 'night, #perl6 23:26
23:40 cognominal joined
masak 'night, #perl6 23:49
23:56 lue left, cognominal left
FROGGS nqp: say("abc" x 7); 23:57
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near "say(\"abc\" "␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 14698 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:5229) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pm:278)␤»

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