»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
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timotimo i'm now comparing run times for my brownian tree among jakudo and parakudo. even though those are both heavily RNG-dependent in run time, perhaps there will be a huge difference? i should probably run them at least thrice each, but they take upwards of 5 minutes 00:36
i'll get memory usage stats from them, though, which is nice.
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timotimo okay, the parrot version has now been running for 15 minutes, whereas the jvm version only took 6 00:48
5:25 vs 18:07, but interestingly parakudo only took 0.5x the memory; it's probably some "start with a gig of ram allocated" flag in the jvm-rakudo launch script? 00:51
no, it is not. it starts with 100m. 00:52
that's kinda crazy :|
timotimo runs a less random-influenced bit of code 00:53
on my galton box code (pretty console-output-heavy), the jvm version takes 1 second longer, uses almost 2x as much ram. 00:54
when taking out the actual output, but not the creation of the parts of the string that's to be output, as well as upping the loop count by a third, the jvm beats parrot 25 seconds to 28.6; takes almost 2x as much ram again, though. 00:57
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[Coke] labster: rt id? 01:02
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timotimo ah yes. galton box with 40 coins instead of 30 gives me 28s for jvm and 38s for parrot 01:02
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timotimo 31s vs 49s at 50 coins, interesting. 01:04
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timotimo plots 01:04
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[Coke] timotimo: are you using the eval server? 01:07
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timotimo no 01:09
but the loops are inside the script
so there's only one warmup and one startup for the jvm 01:10
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colomon hmmm, nap-jvm passes make test under my new OS X. 01:12
timotimo with increasing coin count, jvm approaches and perhaps even surpasses 2x as fast
timotimo runs 200 coins 01:13
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timotimo jvm is 1s faster for 200 coins than parrot is for 100 coins :) 01:15
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timotimo imgur.com/16DfDbh - super scientific! 01:20
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colomon and rakudo-jvm passes its tests! \o/ 01:20
timotimo (lack of axis labels makesit even more scientific!)
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benabik Parrot is beating the JVM! Yay! 01:21
It has bigger numbers. Bigger is better. ;-) 01:22
timotimo benabik: unfortunately, Y is "seconds taken, less is better"
benabik timotimo: I know.
colomon not if you're trying to warm your house with the exhaust from your computer!
timotimo ;)
colomon actually did that (by accident) back ten or so years ago 01:25
timotimo wonders what the time-of-implementation on slurp and MAIN will turn out to be 01:26
colomon I'd be surprised if slurp took long at all 01:28
dunno what will be involved with MAIN 01:29
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timotimo "Callframe is NYI" 01:31
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[Coke] several spectests are blocked on that failure 01:37
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labster [Coke]: it's labster, unsurprisingly. 01:46
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[Coke] done 02:11
timotimo wait ... done what?
dalek kudo/nom: c83b634 | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/core/Str.pm:
Switch from sprintf to p6 interpolation.

Don't use sprintf (which doesn't work well yet in JVM) for something we can do with good old interpolation.		 02:14
labster rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=118545 Resolved my first ticket! 02:15
colomon \o/ 02:16
timotimo good! :) 02:17
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timotimo ah, that's what you've done i suppose 02:19
good * #perl6!
labster hi timotimo 02:24
JimmyZ Good morning, #perl6 02:32
colomon o/ 02:33
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TimToady I have some good news: my PSA reading is off the low end of the scale, so looks like I don't need any radiation or chemo, at least for now 02:55
now I just have to keep it that way for five years or so... 02:56
I realize this increases my chances of being run over by a bus... :) 02:58
colomon \o/ 03:01
(well, not the bus bit.)
That's great news! 03:03
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dalek d: 85cf51d | larry++ | STD.pm6:
simplify message on undef (also revert =:= patch)
 03:14
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labster oh, that's really good news. (that 0.1mm)++ 03:18
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TimToady well, there could still be a singular cell or two that will eventually be bad news, but the odds seem to be in my favor at the moment 03:20
course, it's still 50/50 :)
or 100/0 03:21
or 0/100
but I'm pretty happy tonight :)
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sorear good * #perl6 03:34
yoleaux 2 Jul 2013 18:37Z <raiph> sorear: is niecza's gather/take lazy?
2 Jul 2013 22:23Z <raiph> sorear: is niecza's gather/take batched, or 100% lazy?
sorear .tell raiph I have never heard of a perl6 implementation without 100% lazy gather/take. Your questions are weird. 03:35
yoleaux sorear: I'll pass your message to raiph.
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jeffreykegler Just popped in to say how that I am very happy to hear Larry's good news 03:57
TimToady :) 04:00
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PerlJam TimToady: What's the good news? (I'm on vacation and have been away from the internet for several days) 04:08
TimToady: Are you one of the lucky 12% or whatever it was from your talk?
ah ... (just read the scrollback) Congrats TimToady!! 04:09
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sorear Congrats! 04:10
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Woodi hallo 04:36
sorear o/ Woodi 04:37
Woodi TimToady: it's St. Paul dillema but all will be good :)
TimToady well, St Paul was a much better apostle to the gentiles than I've been to the hackers, but I feel privileged to have had the opportunity to try :) 04:39
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sorear what is St Paul's dilemma? my ddg-fu is failing me 04:58
Woodi sorear: St. Paul was apostole and he for some time expected to be sentenced to dr 05:00
...to death.
but he belived that haven is better place so he wanted go there but staying HERE was good work for him and for others :) 05:01
so we realy hope TimToady will help us with all that specifications :) 05:02
TimToady www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...ersion=NIV is the specific passage in question 05:04
Woodi r: sub basket( Str $f ) { my %fruits = ('apples', '4'); return %fruits{ $f } }; say basket( 'noexiranges' ); 05:05
camelia rakudo c83b63: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
Woodi Any not Nil returned ?
TimToady well, Any is the default default, but lizmat++ is working on the ability to set other defaults 05:07
Woodi but Nil means "there is no value here"... 05:08
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TimToady well, but a default means "assume this value is there if there isn't one" :) 05:09
arguably Nil would be a good default default too 05:10
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TimToady at the moment, however, we're leaning away from letting you put such "concepts" into array elements by default 05:11
so we limit elements to type Any for now 05:12
(by default
)
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Woodi r: sub basket( Str $f ) returns Int { my %fruits = ('apples', '4'); return %fruits{ $f } }; say basket( 'noexiranges' ); 05:18
camelia rakudo c83b63: OUTPUT«Type check failed for return value; expected 'Int' but got 'Any'␤ in sub basket at /tmp/9M8i3Wf8kE:1␤ in block at /tmp/9M8i3Wf8kE:1␤␤»
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moritz \o 05:31
sorear o/ moritz
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FROGGS[mobile] o/ 05:52
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dalek p: 56f116f | sorear++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/ (5 files):
Add a JavaWrap representation and associated code
 06:04
p: 32c67cd | sorear++ | src/vm/jvm/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
stub jvmbootinterop access
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woosley rakudo: my $a = [1,2,4]; $a.delete(1);say $a; say $a.elems 07:56
camelia rakudo c83b63: OUTPUT«1 Nil 4␤3␤»
woosley r: my $a = [1,2,4]; $a.delete(2);say $a; say $a.elems 07:57
camelia rakudo c83b63: OUTPUT«1 2␤2␤»
FROGGS use splice if you want to remove from the middle 07:58
r: my $a = [1,2,4]; $a.splice(1,1); say $a; say $a.elems
camelia rakudo c83b63: OUTPUT«1 4␤2␤»
woosley ah, I thought I could always delete at every position 07:59
Woodi aren't delete for hashes only ? 08:07
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moritz github.com/blog/1547-release-your-software # looks like this might be interesting for rakudo and star releases 08:10
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grondilu "CallCapture representation does not implement cloning" 08:11
^ while trying to compile rakudo on JVM 08:12
in (src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:1072)
<-- $capture := nqp::clone($capture); 08:14
paste.siduction.org/20130703081552 <- full error log 08:16
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mathw Good morning! 08:40
dalek kudo/nom: c929f04 | (Brent Laabs)++ | / (4 files):
Add IO::Spec::QNX to make Unix more efficient

to penalize every other unix with extra operations in canonpath. Plus it was never tested on qnx so it didn't even work... now fixed Seriously, what bozo implemented this in the first place?		 08:43
kudo/nom: 827bcc4 | (Brent Laabs)++ | src/core/IO (2 files):
Implement :parent for path cleanup (except Win). Add IO::Path::QNX

IO::Path::Unix and IO::Spec::Unix -- which magically makes Cygwin and QNX work too. Physical cleanup (resolve) still NYI.
kudo/nom: 174bf4f | (Brent Laabs)++ | / (7 files):
Merge branch 'nom' of github.com:rakudo/rakudo into nom
labster good morning, * 08:44
mathw hi labster
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masak good morning, #perl6 08:46
moritz \o 08:47
mathw \o/ 08:50
masak labster: have you discovered the full awesomeness of rebasing? they help reduce the number of zero-info merges like that last one. 08:54
labster apparently not :P 08:55
masak labster: in this particular case, it'd have been a question of 'git pull --rebase' instead of just 'git pull'.
nwc10 would be nice if github discovred the full awesomeness of rebasing too
timotimo TimToady: (good news)++ 08:56
masak labster: and if you notice that the pull actually did a merge, you can quickly get back to pre-pull by doing 'git reset --hard HEAD{1}' and then do the 'git pull --rebase'
mathw likes rebasing
masak labster: or, even better if you ask me, 'git config --global --add merge.ff=only' and then pull will refuse to add merges 08:57
mathw uses rebasing more often than is healthy
labster sweet. will do so from now on.
masak TimToady: I'm very relieved about the news. here's to a long life, though maybe not as long as TheDamian suggests ;)
colomon masak: my git required that be 'git config --global --add merge.ff only' 08:58
but definitely masak++ if that works! 08:59
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dalek ecs: 2a08d8c | (Brent Laabs)++ | S99-glossary.pod:
[S99] define thinko, request MRO
 09:01
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masak oh, ok. yeah, sorry, I wrote that from memory :) 09:03
it definitely works, to the point that it prevents you from doing local merges too if they produce a merge commit! 09:04
colomon just went and added it to my linux box, too. 09:06
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mathw I had a weird thing with git the other day, where 'git commit -a' didn't add any new files, but I'm sure that's what it's supposed to do. Am I wrong? 09:10
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hoelzro git commit -a doesn't add new files 09:10
it commits all changes in any files already being tracked 09:11
git add -A will find new files
mathw I'm wrong. Good. 09:12
I wouldn't like to think they'd changed something like that.
timotimo "one of the major changes in this new git release is that mathw is no longer wrong"; < mathw> oh damn it! 09:13
mathw immortality in git release notes 09:14
I could live with that
masak read that as "immutability" and went, "well, duh" 09:17
jnthn morning o/
nwc10 jnthn++ # bloggage
jnthn grondilu: It means your NQP build is out of date.
mathw jnthn: nice interview
jnthn grondilu: For now, NQP HEAD is always assumed for Rakudo on JVM. 09:18
masak I really like how the model of git shows how immutable objects (commits) can be useful in a way that mutable objects can't. and how you're still not restricted in any significant way.
JimmyZ TimToady: good news
jnthn TimToady: Happy to hear the good news \o/
mathw masak: I'm writing Haskell again. Immutability rocks. 09:19
JimmyZ jnthn++ # blog and interview
masak mathw: yes. but it's not just Haskell. I do a fair bit of immutability in my Perl 6 code. 09:21
jnthn Immutability is one of the unchanging goodnesses. :)
colomon There are some good uses in p6 for mutability, though. I find myself making most, but definitely not all, classes immutable. 09:22
masak .oO( "immutability was good, is good, and will stay good until the end of time, forever and ever. amen." )
yes, there are definitely good uses for mutability. 09:23
mathw it's nice to have a lagnuage that supports immutability
it's one of the things that annoys me about C#
masak I guess the point is that immutability subsumes it. you can fake mutability with immutability, but not really the other way around. and that's an interesting result because you'd expect kinda the opposite.
mathw I can make an immutable class, but I can't make a method that declares "I will not mutate 'this'"
etc. etc. 09:24
jnthn mathw: One of the simplest things they could do is provide "let" outside of linq expressions.
mathw and immutability in C# is a convention, not something you can declare in the type system
jnthn mathw: So you have a way to do single static assignment and the reader can know, "this thing won't be updated". Granted it'd only be "skin deep", but still... :)
mathw yeah it'd be nice
it's something I miss from C++
jnthn Should be easy too. :)
mathw really need to write some C++ again, after I've finished with my writing some Haskell again thing 09:25
jnthn has managed to escape C++ so far. :)
mathw I do find myself using a lot of readonly member variables in C#
but that just means you can't change the reference
jnthn The C++ teacher at $dayjob has told me some horror stories, though. :)
mathw the object itself can be mutated however it supports
heh there is some serious evil in C++
but I want to write something using all the new C++11 shiny move semantics and smart pointers and things
nwc10 have the C++ compilers caught up yet? 09:26
JimmyZ doesn't want to touch C++
colomon gcc has, I think 09:27
mathw g++ has support for most of it 09:29
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mathw including some of the really scary stuff like variadic templates 09:29
I haven't really tried to comprehend those yet
btw jnthn awesome work on Rakudo/JVM 09:30
jnthn It's not just me :) 09:32
mathw yeah but you're the person I know to point the finger at because you blogged it 09:34
everyone else who contributed: awesome work on Rakudo/JVM
nwc10 I blame TimToady. He started it, after all.
mathw I'm looking forward to deliberately constructing a project that requires me to use Perl 6 to call a library written in Clojure 09:35
Because it's bound to be fiddly and awkward but it'll be awesome to see it work
JimmyZ mathw: This's the start? github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/32c67c...bfd8addc63 09:44
masak .oO( "interop ops"... "Bootstrap's bootstraps"... )
tadzik I see what you did there 09:48
jnthn :P
JimmyZ: Yes, that looks to me very much like a start on Java object interop :) 09:49
tadzik now I feel like some Hans Zimmer
timotimo .o( Hansi Hinterzimmer, tee hee ) 09:50
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woosley what is the method to check if a element is in an Array in Perl 6? 09:58
masak r: my @a = 1, [2, 3], 4; say $_ ~~ Array for @a 09:59
camelia rakudo 174bf4: OUTPUT«False␤True␤False␤»
masak oh! *in* an array. sorry.
jnthn mathw: in!
timotimo hehe
jnthn oops, masak
masak r: my @a = 1, [2, 3], 4; say so 4 ~~ any(@a)
camelia rakudo 174bf4: OUTPUT«True␤»
timotimo r: my @a = <a b c foo dog>; say any(@a) eq "dog";
camelia rakudo 174bf4: OUTPUT«any(False, False, False, False, True)␤»
timotimo yeah
JimmyZ :D
timotimo should have so'd that
jnthn You so shoulda 10:00
masak you so should... damn :)
JimmyZ decommutes
mathw JimmyZ: jnthn: that's why I love #perl6. 10:03
wish I had time to contribute :(
Other stuff to do first
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mathw along with $dayjob and teaching small children to beat each other up 10:03
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colomon woosley: alternatively, 10:04
r: my @a = <a b c foo dog>; say "dog" (elem) @a; 10:05
camelia rakudo 174bf4: OUTPUT«True␤»
colomon more elegantly (but doesn't work on Rakudo)
n: my @a = <a b c foo dog>; say "dog" ∈ @a;
camelia niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«True␤»
masak \o/
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woosley crazy stuff !! 10:05
masak that's a really neat fall-out side effect of set ops :)
hadn't thought of that. colomon++ 10:06
colomon no idea whether this is more efficient than so any(@a) eq "dog", mind you
masak "efficient"? hahaha :)
jnthn If it constructs a set, possibly not.
If it's optimized to skip that, maybe it's faster.
colomon it definitely constructs a set
jnthn OK, then it's probably slower. :)
masak maybe some far-future optimizer could efficientize it.
jnthn Why does everyone assume optimizer stuff has to be in the far future? :) 10:07
masak that's just the Baysean prior since it's never happened yet :)
jnthn :P
colomon jnthn: at the speed you work, everyone assumes the far future is sometime next year? ;)
jnthn :P
masak ok, that is now officially my favorite way to check array membership.
mathw mine too
masak n: my %h = 1..6; say 3 ∈ %h; say 4 ∈ %h 10:08
jnthn I wonder if Rakudo on JVM is free of the epic parsing slowdown that happens if we use operators in the setting that are outside of Latin-1...
camelia niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«True␤False␤»
jnthn It really should be.
mathw well, to find out you first need to make it capable of compiling the setting 10:09
simple, right? a morning's work? :)
jnthn It's been capable of that for ages. :)
colomon masak: as you probably realize, if you construct a Set from a hash, it uses the keys only
jnthn "ages" :)
mathw five minutes?
jnthn Reached compiling most of the setting around late May. Of course, most of that compiled output didn't actually work :P 10:10
woosley r: my @a=[1,3,4]; say @a.push(<a b>); say @a[-1]
camelia rakudo 174bf4: OUTPUT«1 3 4 a b␤Cannot use negative index -1 on Array␤ in method gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:10476␤ in method gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:913␤ in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:11377␤ in block at /tmp/JIpQo3Ar0X:1␤␤»
jnthn *-1
colomon r: my @a=[1,3,4]; say @a.push(<a b>); say @a[*-1]
camelia rakudo 174bf4: OUTPUT«1 3 4 a b␤b␤»
masak colomon: right.
woosley this syntax is a bit strange 10:11
masak what syntax? 10:12
woosley *-1
colomon r: my @a=[1,3,4]; say @a.push(<a b>); say @a[*/2]
camelia rakudo 174bf4: OUTPUT«1 3 4 a b␤a␤»
masak woosley: -1 didn't work in the rest of the design in Perl 6.
woosley: -1 means "the index minus one" in Perl 6, not "one from the end".
woosley: I think you'd agree that's at least more consistent :P
jnthn s/index/elems/ 10:13
Note that *-1 is more general syntax
r: my $x = *-1; say $x(3)
camelia rakudo 174bf4: OUTPUT«2␤»
jnthn And so is passing a closure to an indexer
woosley Ah, I think I get it, and suddenly it looks beautiful :)
jnthn r: my @a = 1..5; say @a[-> $elems { $elems - 2 }]
camelia rakudo 174bf4: OUTPUT«4␤»
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masak jnthn: no, "-1" in a .[] in Perl 6 means "the *index* [that is] minus one" 10:15
woosley r: say [1,2,['a', 'b']]
camelia rakudo 174bf4: OUTPUT«1 2 a b␤»
jnthn masak: oh, I thought you were talking about what gets passed to the closure...sorry.
masak right. 10:16
no, I was talking about the reasons it can't be "-1" in Perl 6.
when someone says "*-1" is ugly, you have to start by explaining why "-1" won't cut it.
woosley wondering why the output is flattened? expecting something like 1,2, ["a", "b"]
masak woosley: no, then that'd be "[1, 2, [a, b]]" 10:17
timotimo because it gistifies when you call say on it
r: print [1,2,['a', 'b']]
camelia rakudo 174bf4: OUTPUT«1 2 a b»
timotimo r: print [1,2,['a', 'b']].perl
camelia rakudo 174bf4: OUTPUT«[1, 2, ["a", "b"]]»
masak woosley: because what timotimo said. arrays don't generally have a printed output, that'd be terribly distracting in most output.
woosley: "what are those brackets doing in my salary report! get them outta there right away!"
woosley \o/ 10:18
masak it's like printing a string doesn't usually surround the printed string with "" quotes ;)
same thing.
woosley well, I have to say for string you will not get an "string inside string", but for a list, there is "list inside list". 10:22
mathw this is true 10:23
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jnthn Well, it's easy to write something that will dump with your desired structure 10:24
r: multi d(@a) { '(' ~ @a.map(&d) ~ ')' }; multi d($x) { $x }; say d [1, 2, [3, 4, [5]]] 10:26
camelia rakudo 174bf4: OUTPUT«(1 2 (3 4 (5)))␤»
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lizmat good *, #perl6! 10:44
r: say 1.uniq # should this work?
camelia rakudo 174bf4: OUTPUT«1␤»
moritz yes
jnthn *, lizmat. Yes, scalars can happily pun as a single element list on demand. :) 10:45
lizmat then adapts some tests in uniq.t
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dalek ast: abe3272 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-list/uniq.t:
cleanup in "uniq" tests
 10:59
ast: 9885e8d | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-list/squish.t:
Copy of "uniq" tests for "squish"
grondilu jnthn: I still get "CallCapture representation does not implement cloning", and yet I'm pretty sure I have the latest nqp (2013.06) 11:03
jnthn grondilu: I meant latest as in, HEAD of the NQP repo 11:04
tadzik heh, python's range() doesn't work for strings. Maybe they should have strange()
jnthn :D
grondilu I don't know git very well, do you mean I must run "git pull origin HEAD" in the nqp directory? 11:05
dalek ast: 98b0260 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-list/squish.t:
Transmogrified "uniq" tests to "squish"
 11:06
jnthn git checkout master && git pull # should do it 11:07
dalek kudo/nom: f069282 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | / (3 files):
Implement squish() and .squish(), as per S32/Containers
 11:08
lizmat .oO{ one less LHF }
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colomon goes to look in S32-containers.... 11:09
lizmat it was pretty much a no-brainer 11:10
with "uniq" as the template :-)
colomon why @secret?
lizmat to make sure that the first test *never* matches 11:12
Mu / Any / Nil would not work, if the first element would be Mu / Any / Nil
@secret can never be the first element, as it is secret :-) 11:15
colomon r: sub colomon-squish(@a) { my $last; gather sink for @a { FIRST { $last = $_; next; }; take $_ if $_ !=== $last; $last = $_; }; say colomon-squish(<a a b c d d a e>)
camelia rakudo 174bf4: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse expression in block; couldn't find final '}'␤at /tmp/INkPTn4EAR:1␤------> }; say colomon-squish(<a a b c d d a e>)⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ statement end␤ statement …
colomon r: sub colomon-squish(@a) { my $last; gather sink for @a { FIRST { $last = $_; next; }; take $_ if $_ !=== $last; $last = $_; };}; say colomon-squish(<a a b c d d a e>)
camelia rakudo 174bf4: OUTPUT«b c d a e␤»
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lizmat huh? 11:16
rakudobug?
colomon no, colomonbug 11:17
pmurias what does localifetime do?
colomon r: sub colomon-squish(@a) { my $last; gather sink for @a { FIRST { take $_; $last = $_; next; }; take $_ if $_ !=== $last; $last = $_; };}; say colomon-squish(<a a b c d d a e>)
camelia rakudo 174bf4: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/wJT4zzUqqp:1␤------> or @a { FIRST { take $_; $last = $_; nex⏏t; }; take $_ if $_ !=== $last; $last =␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ infix stopper␤ …
colomon that might be a rakudo bug? but I've got to run to the car dealership to get my VW's breaks worked on. 11:18
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arnsholt jnthn: Is it ok to add non-op functions to Ops.java, or should I factor those into a separate static class for native-related code reuse? 11:20
jnthn arnsholt: Ops.java is getting kinda big. I'd put 'em elsewhere. Note that we can register nqp:: things that point to other classes too :) 11:22
arnsholt Oh, right. I'll just put all the NativeCall things in a separate class, in that case 11:23
Relatedly, how does box_target stuff work on JVM? 11:24
pmurias jnthn: what doe localifetime do?
arnsholt On Parrot, we call box_funcs->get_boxed_ref to get the NativeCall thing, but I can't find an obvious counterpart to that on JVM
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colomon arnsholt: There's been a single failing test in NativeCall under parakudo for the last couple of weeks. Of course, that breaks at least a dozen other modules in the ecosystem. Any chance you could take a look at that sometime? 11:27
afk # to bay city 11:29
11:29 colomon left
arnsholt *grumblegrumble* 11:30
Could you submit an issue on it?
lizmat jnthn: I guess phasers don't work yet when src/core/List is added to settings ? 11:36
rewrite of squish using FIRST and NEXT fails with gist.github.com/lizmat/5917225 11:41
it works fine if written like that in another module on an installed rakudo
so I guess we can't use phasers that early in the game, right? 11:42
jnthn pmurias: Not sure exactly, but you can ignore it and just compile the 0th child of the node and things work. It's purely an optimization.
lizmat: No, don't use phasers in the setting, aside from BEGIN...
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lizmat too bad… :-) I guess we're back to using @secret to skip the first check 11:43
jnthn I don't know exactly why it doesn't work, but I don't much care for making it do so either. It'll most likely be slower than the alternatives.
arnsholt: There's no direct equivalent of that yet
lizmat I thought "method squish() { my $last; gather sink for @.list { FIRST next; take $_ if $_ !=== $last; NEXT $last = $_ } } was rather elegant, colomon++ for inspiration 11:44
arnsholt Right. I'll leave that as a stub, then 11:45
jnthn lizmat: Yes, but when you're writing CORE.setting elegance is NOT your first priority!! 11:49
Your priority is "implement this so it'll be efficient". 11:50
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jnthn Using gather/take in the setting when it's not needed is a huge performance no-no. 11:50
lizmat well, I was just replicating what "uniq" was doing, really
so you'd rather just have it do a map ?
jnthn Yes, well, maybe uniq could benefit from some speedup too ;-)
lizmat: Yes :) 11:51
lizmat ok, will do
jnthn lizmat++
lizmat grep actually, of course :-) 11:53
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jnthn :) 11:57
JimmyZ Good evening 11:58
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colomon o/ 12:09
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dalek kudo/nom: d2ee950 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/List.pm:
Streamline "uniq" and "squish", suggested by jnthn++

See irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-07-03#i_7284148		 12:12
colomon grep makes sense with uniq, but it makes my head hurt for squish
ooo, code!
arg, VW dealership wi-fi will not let me look at github.
solution: use my phone. ;)
lizmat colomon: basically "grep { $grepped = $_ !=== $last; $last = $_; $grepped }, @.list;" 12:13
colomon lizmat: oh, I can imagine it, I just think grep with side-effects borders on abomination. ;)
lizmat "[13:50:01] <jnthn> Your priority is "implement this so it'll be efficient"." 12:14
colomon Yes, I saw (in backlog)
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jnthn Well, grep is really just a nice way to write a loop and an if statement ;) 12:16
lizmat but there is no performance penalty, I would hope?
jnthn Should be pretty efficient.
Better than gather/take :) 12:17
lizmat pick / roll also use gather / take
optimize? 12:18
colomon can you, there? 12:19
those have to be lazy
and they're not returning elements in order
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lizmat keeps her hands off pick / roll :-) 12:20
JimmyZ gather mostly meanst it's lazy
*means
colomon is having a hard time getting used to using irssi this morning. 12:21
lizmat "method pop() is rw" is rw, does that make sense? I mean, this is about using .pop as a left value, no? 12:22
JimmyZ r: (1..60000000000000000000).pick.say 12:23
camelia rakudo f06928: OUTPUT«48815951219828953769␤»
JimmyZ it's fast!
colomon lizmat: method pop changes the array it's called on, right?
tadzik I optimized that :)
may have been my first contribution
JimmyZ :P
tadzik I was furious that (1..100).pick was a bottleneck of my toy program 12:24
colomon tadzik++
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colomon rn: say "this is A test".tclc 12:25
camelia rakudo f06928, niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«This is a test␤»
colomon when do we get a camelia for jakudo?
p6eval, I mean
JimmyZ r: (1..60000000000000000000).pick(10).say 12:26
camelia rakudo f06928: OUTPUT«28487812125826846065 41742209814531995164 53207098133441548403 18843020627099168440 31025068939550976321 35864436322923804035 16164864358354258087 39209912430275720740 56666890291364813086 40325031511429966569␤»
tadzik rakudo-jvm: say 1
not sure if doesn't exist, or just slow
lizmat r: my @a=1,2,3; @a.pop = 4; say @a
camelia rakudo f06928: OUTPUT«1 2␤»
jnthn Doesn't exist, afaik
masak no, don't think it does. 12:27
lizmat r: my @a=1,2,3; my $b = @a.pop = 4; say @a; say $b
camelia rakudo f06928: OUTPUT«1 2␤4␤»
lizmat I guess it makes *some* kind of sense
but it feels more like an error to me that remains silent 12:28
colomon lizmat: insane and wrong in my book
masak correct in my book, but for obscure reasons.
it's the container/decont thing. 12:29
lizmat S12:564 says: Methods (and subs) may be declared as lvalues with C<is rw>. 12:31
pop() is not an lvalue? 12:32
masak I'm trying to think of a reason .pop *should* be lvalue and not rvalue.
haven't found any yet. but that doesn't mean there isn't one.
my suggestion: make it an rvalue and see if any spectests fail.
lizmat is already running spectest with pop() without "is rw"
colomon seems like it is a thinko for "pop modifies the method it is called on"
lizmat back in ~ 7 minutes 12:33
colomon wonders if it might be one of his own mistakes from years ago...
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masak lizmat++ 12:33
colomon lizmat++ indeed!
I'm looking at wordcase. tclc works, so it seems like it must be subst or matching that isn't working? 12:36
anyone have a notion what / [<:L> \w* ] +% <['\-]> / is supposed to do? 12:42
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masak yes. 12:48
the fact that '+%' is a confusing way to write two operators aside...
it means this: "a letter followed by zero or more word characters (letter, digit, underscore). make that into a group. accept one or more of that group, separated by single apostrophes or dashes." 12:49
colomon "accept one or more of that group" is completely unnecessary, no? 12:50
moritz no
not with the delimiter
colomon moritz++ 12:51
moritz [<:L> \w*] matches 'A222' for example
repetition + delimiter make it also match A222-Bx'c3
colomon the capitalize.t tests are thoroughly insufficient to test this stuff, as far as I can see. 12:52
colomon replaced that whole mess with w+ and it passes the same tests as the other one does. 12:53
moritz <:L> doesn't match digits and _ 12:54
yes, the tests aren't that thorough
colomon moritz: no, I understand that. and I mean the entire regex, so that internal - and ' weren't allowed any more. 12:55
No tests failed.
[<:L> \w*]+ % <[ \- ' ]> doesn't actually work on JVM
dunno why
nor [<:L> \w* ] +% <['\-]> 12:56
well, I can guess it might be the :L?
moritz you can easily check that 12:58
colomon just did, and it is
moritz unicode properties might win us a few houndred to a few thousand tests :-) 13:00
jnthn We already have them besides the derived.
colomon huh 13:01
> "a" ~~ / <:L> /
｢a｣
now I'm really confused
> "this is a test".subst(:g, / [<:L> \w*]+ % <[ \- ' ]> /, "---") 13:02
dalek p: c8a6c01 | (Pawel Murias)++ | docs/serialization_format.markdown:
Document what a variant 12 means in the serialization format.
colomon this is a test
masak I'm confused too.
pmurias hopes he didn't break rakudo with his nqp commit ;)
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FROGGS pmurias: I'm running the stresstest just to be sure :P 13:04
colomon I am completely mystified by this
... and I cannot post gists here at the dealership. :(
oh! 13:05
> "this is a test" ~~ / [<:L> \w*]+ % <[ \- ' ]> /
｢t｣
[Coke] minor update to gist.github.com/coke/5879701 which includes some commits from yesterday.
colomon rn: say "this is a test" ~~ / [<:L> \w*]+ % <[ \- ' ]> /
camelia rakudo f06928, niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«｢this｣␤␤» 13:06
lizmat seems .pop needs to be "is rw" because of unshift
colomon lizmat: huh? 13:07
lizmat while @elems { nqp::unshift($!items, @elems.pop) }
apparently the pushed element is not rw
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lizmat *unshifter 13:07
RT #69548 13:08
masak lizmat: that... feels like a weird reason. 13:09
colomon what masak said
masak lizmat: my initial reaction is that that's not pop's fault. it's the fault of whatever happens before you pass the thing into unshift.
colomon > "this is a test" ~~ / <:L> \w+ / 13:10
Nil
> "this is a test" ~~ / <:L> \w* /
｢t｣
rn: say "this is a test" ~~ / <:L> \w+ /
lizmat oddly enough, I get some todo's passed with this change
camelia rakudo f06928, niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«｢this｣␤␤»
masak isn't sure whether to submit a rakudobug :/
colomon jnthn: ^^^^^
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not_gerd o/ 13:11
FROGGS: gist.github.com/FROGGS/836912b4855...ent-855950 13:12
jnthn colomon: uh...wow, wtf... :)
Nice golf.
masak colomon++
lizmat r: sub MAIN( $a = nosuchsub()) { }; sub USAGE { say 42 } 13:15
camelia rakudo d2ee95: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot assign a non-Perl 6 value to a Perl 6 container␤»
jnthn wat 13:16
masak submits rakudobug
lizmat not sure if this is .pop is rw related 13:17
FROGGS not_gerd: I answered :o) 13:18
masak tests locally
lizmat: I can't reproduce your bug here.
but I have an old rakudo. pulling and rebuilding.
someone else is free to test locally, too.
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lizmat this is probably just noise 13:19
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lizmat remaking without .pop change, and testing again 13:19
masak who wants to release the Rakudo compiler in August? 13:20
I'll make the usual trade -- if someone claims August, I will claim September :)
not_gerd FROGGS: I've got a patch ready that does +1/shift/-1 that passes your test
moritz masak: ok, I'll do August
not_gerd shall I push that?
masak moritz: shall I add you, or are you already on it? 13:22
lizmat t/spec/S06-other/main-usage.t fails, test #3
apparently caused by something committed already 13:23
FROGGS not_gerd: push if it does not break spectests
dalek kudo/nom: 5230d5a | masak++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
[docs/release_guide.pod] add moritz and me for Aug/Sep
 13:24
masak moritz++
lizmat rerunning full spectest, just to be sure
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lizmat r: Module.new 13:27
camelia rakudo d2ee95: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot assign a non-Perl 6 value to a Perl 6 container␤»
lizmat huh?
did I break that?
FROGGS lizmat: locally I get: "undeclared name Module used" 13:28
but my rakudo is about 6 hours old
This is perl6 version 2013.06-111-g54b7dd5 built on parrot 5.5.0 revision RELEASE_5_5_0 13:29
lizmat so it must have been something I did
not_gerd Is it just me, or has Rakudo/Parrot performance regressed since March?
FROGGS ohh, mine is a day old 13:30
lizmat yup, it is my uniq/grep optimization that makes things fail 13:32
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not_gerd yep, there's a massive slowdown in stage parse... 13:33
lizmat that could be because there is more code to parse ?
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[Coke] not_gerd: is this during the build of ./perl6, or running arbitrary code? 13:34
FROGGS yes, like IO::Spec and several other things
not_gerd [Coke]: both
CORE.setting from ~100s to 140s
a test script I use to keep track of this went from 1.3s to 2s 13:35
moritz that's not good :(
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not_gerd note that I don't know yet if it's a change in Parrot or Rakudo that's responsible 13:36
heck, I even updated my gcc since then ;)
lizmat hopes it's not her hash/array slice adverb code that's to blame
jnthn So much has happened since March, it could be a combination of many things rather than any one big thing. 13:37
For compile time, it's also possible it's a change in NQP too. 13:38
moritz finds it hilarious and sad that bugs.otrs.org is powered by bugzilla, not otrs 13:39
tadzik bootstraping problem? :P
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moritz hardly 13:40
nwc10 moritz: that's, just, um, what's the point of the product then? 13:46
it's a pretty good "we don't think our product is good enough" anti-advert 13:47
moritz nwc10: aye
dalek kudo/nom: ce8b5f6 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/List.pm:
Restore "uniq" to unstreamlined form, it messes up odd things
 13:48
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lizmat afk for a few hours& 13:50
dalek : 2965c89 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (2 files):
fixed warn/die, added directive "s" to pack/unpack
 13:58
: 8105c22 | (Tobias Leich)++ | rakudo.patch:
update rakudo-patch
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masak lizmat: with Poznan-128-g5230d5a, I get your error locally. 14:05
ah, but there's a new commit ;)
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dalek p: bfe5c17 | (Gerhard R)++ | src/vm/parrot/ops/nqp_bigint.ops:
Simplify conversion from sign-manitude to two's complement in nqp_bigint_shr()
 14:29
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Util rn: my %b = z => 26; my $b = %b; my @a = $b; say @a.perl; 14:41
camelia niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«[{"z" => 26}].list␤»
..rakudo ce8b5f: OUTPUT«Array.new({"z" => 26})␤»
Util rn: my %b = z => 26; my @a = item %b; say @a.perl;
camelia rakudo ce8b5f: OUTPUT«Array.new("z" => 26)␤» 14:42
..niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«[{"z" => 26}].list␤»
Util I expect the output to be identical. In Niecza, they match, but in Rakudo, item() is unwinding the hash into its .pairs .
Is this a bug in Rakudo, or am I misunderstanding the C<item> contextualizer?
moritz rakudobug 14:43
(and known by RT) 14:44
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Util moritz: Thanks 14:45
moritz (and fixes would be very welcome indeed) 14:46
r: my %h = (z => 26); my $s = %h; my @a = $s; say @a.perl 14:47
camelia rakudo ce8b5f: OUTPUT«Array.new({"z" => 26})␤»
moritz oh, I think the problem might be that this
r: sub f(*@a) { say @a.perl }; f my % = a => 2 14:48
camelia rakudo ce8b5f: OUTPUT«Array.new("a" => 2)␤»
moritz I wonder if sub item can simply have the signature \a or so
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colomon hmmm, zavolaj is failing very badly on OS X 15:13
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masak thought you were gonna say it's failing very badly on the JVM... :) 15:16
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colomon nope, that's parakudo 15:25
wouldn't be surprised if it has something to do with changing the compiler and OS version yesterday, mind you. 15:27
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geekosaur OS version will definitely break stuff 15:29
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colomon ugh, issues building parakudo from scratch :\ 15:35
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dalek kudo-js: 964b229 | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/QAST/Compiler/JavaScript.nqp:
Insert vim folds into the output for easier debugging of the compiler.
 15:37
kudo-js: a4dbf65 | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/QAST/Compiler/JavaScript.nqp:
Igonre localife time
kudo-js: 4437535 | (Pawel Murias)++ | runtime/serialization.js:
Fix typo in comment.
kudo-js: 3c0edb1 | (Pawel Murias)++ | runtime/serialization.js:
Remove dead code.
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colomon how did perlbrew get in /opt/local ?!? 15:41
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colomon installed new perlbrew, hopefully actually local to my user id; now installing new perl on it. 15:48
pmichaud TimToady++ # excellent news from the test results. 15:52
lizmat is that public already? 15:53
pmichaud I saw it in the scrollback, I believe
moritz irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-07-03#i_7283130
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moritz aye, TimToady++ 15:53
lizmat indeed, must catch up on today's backlog 15:54
indeed, TimToady++ 15:58
TimToady well, it's not like I did anything, other than believe the doctor when he said "You have to have that out ASAP." 16:04
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TimToady wonders if we'd still have Steve Jobs if he'd let the doctors treat him earlier... 16:07
timotimo many people who are opposed to the kind of treatment he got are - or at least seem to be - certain of that 16:09
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TimToady I can guarantee to you that certainty is overrated. 16:13
timotimo for sure.
colomon made the mistake of clicking the new "All My Files" in Finder hoping it was the way to get to his home directory. It's now trying to (slowly) build a convenient list of all 1,000,000+ files on my system. How clever, Apple! 16:17
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TimToady timotimo: anyway, in my experience, the quacks err on the side of certainty much more often than the non-quacks 16:27
timotimo they are probably all very, very convinced in the magical-healing-ability-du-joure(sp?) of their ... thing 16:28
TimToady but alas, the medical profession is not the only profession in which people peddle certainty to people who crave certainty
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timotimo when somebody needs a cure and there is apparently none (yet), they'll turn to anything that gives them hope and i certainly can't blame them. 16:29
also, i don't feel i should continue talking about this; i've never had anything remotely life-threatening happen to me afaict 16:30
TimToady sure, people will spend fortunes on slim chances, though usually we call this a gambling addiction 16:34
timotimo hadn't thought of it that way
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timotimo but i'd really rather blame the quacks than those who get tricked by them 16:34
i suppose - without having any clue how it actually feels - that such life threatening situations can very well blow any last bit of capability for rational thought out of one's head 16:35
TimToady there are far too many people in the world who are willing to collect blood money, and who work very hard to convince themselves that they aren't 16:36
well, I suppose this is all rather OT here, where we only have the best of intentions :) 16:38
perigrin timotimo: you're also arguing that rational thought is possible in a system riddled with unknowns.
timotimo perigrin: to me, it seems like a not completely unimportant piece of the puzzle is vastly overestimating the powers of things that science deems "not yet fully understood"
perigrin science vastly overestimates what it understands quite a lot of the time. 16:39
this is why it's constantly surprising and amazing.
And disappointing to many.
timotimo "asian wasabi-coated nuts are not fully understood by science! so it's only sensible to believe this guy who claims it can cure baldness when snorted!"
TimToady yes, but science also believes in falsifying itself when necessary
perigrin TimToady: yeah, it sucks but not as much as all the alternatives I think is a fair description of my relationship with science. :) 16:40
timotimo i think i need only point at the success of the anti-vaccination crowd to make clear that even if science is sufficiently sure about something, that doesn't matter to people who are scared.
TimToady "Fear is the mind-killer."
timotimo i think the instinctive drowning response or what it's called is a good example of "fear is the mind-killer", but it may be too literal ;) 16:41
perigrin Science isn't sufficiently sure about the thing they're afraid of though. 16:42
timotimo right, but that doesn't excuse going off into the craziest directions in the name of "hope that science is fundamentally wrong about moon light"
but yeah, this is OT and we're all nice people who don't, at all, work on a secret healing product that's supposed to cure us and others of all ills ;) 16:43
well, i suppose at least we're not charging people obscene amounts of money
perigrin speak for yourself, I'm a consultant.
timotimo :D
perigrin (one who probably should charge more though) 16:44
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sorear o/ in passing 17:14
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lizmat sorear! 17:20
colomon \o 17:22
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pmurias pmichaud: I got confused and thought the parrot weekly report was due by today instead of yesterday :( 17:29
s/parrot/gsoc/ 17:30
arnsholt Looks like my IRC machine should be more or less back now \o/
colomon \o/ 17:32
arnsholt: I should have said that the zavolaj bug I reported doesn't look to be a crazy c-side one. It's something going wrong on the p6 side.
arnsholt Oh, goody! 17:33
That should make it a bit easier to nail down
Thanks for the issue, I'll look into it as soon as I can
Somewhat relatedly, have any people found any good workflows for having a working Parrot Rakudo while also hacking on the JVM stuff? 17:34
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colomon arnsholt: I've just made separate rakudo and rakudo-jvm directories on my Linux box. 17:34
arnsholt Makes sense, I guess 17:35
colomon It's less than perfect, though, because you can't easily spectest changes on both without pushing to github.
so I guess maybe I haven't found a good workflow. 17:36
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colomon And I have yet to successfully build both parakudo and jakudo my OS X box at the same time. :\ 17:37
jnthn You can always have a local bare copy of the repos and clone from those, then you can push between 'em.
17:38 snoopy left
jnthn Then push up to github when ready 17:38
not_gerd what's the etiquette for adding test files that fail in Niecza due to lack of native types?
do I need to add some magic comments to gist.github.com/gerdr/5920705 ?
colomon well, it's nice to fudge them: #?niecza skip "Native types NYI"
TimToady well, that one is a bit more complicated 17:39
needs a multipler on the check routine
*plier
arnsholt jnthn: Yeah, that's probably the sanest way to go 17:41
TimToady so needs a #?DOES 10 or some such on the check sub def
plus a #?niecza skip on the calls to check 17:42
benabik is just using git clone -s rakudo rakudo.jvm.
colomon benabik: -s ?
benabik colomon: --shared. It adds the original repository to the alternates list for the second, so it will search for objects in the original repository. 17:43
arnsholt Oooh, neat
TimToady The main problem with git is that there are these concepts, and there are these commands, and they seem to have very little to do with each other. :)
not_gerd TimToady: thanks
arnsholt Git leaks abstractions all over the UI, sadly 17:44
benabik colomon: There are warnings about rebasing/deleting branches/etc, but mostly rakudo.jvm is a throw-away since I don't (currently) plan on doing much dev there.
not_gerd I'll see if they can split check into regular + native
17:44 vk left
TimToady not_gerd: for additional background, see README in roast 17:44
fudge is one of the most useful utter hacks in existence :) 17:45
benabik Hm. Also need a nqp.jvm, I guess? 17:46
not_gerd reading README before committing to a public repository: whoever heard of such a ludicrous thing ;)
masak timotimo: well, I don't know about you, but I've been snorting wasabi for decades and I have lots of hair.
benabik I'm going to guess that trying to have a nqp.parrot and nqp.jvm both installed is going to fail miserably.
masak timotimo: :P 17:47
timotimo :)
perigrin TimToady: I didn't realize there was that much milk in fudge ...
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TimToady query: how do you *not* snort wasabi, other than not eating it? 17:47
colomon benabik: clone it in the rakudo.jvm directory, install it into the rakudo.jvm directory. see README
benabik colomon: README? Bah. :-D
masak TimToady: point. 17:48
jnthn TimToady: tbh, I was kinda stuck on how to snort nuts...they seem a bit big for snorting...
TimToady wonders if naming it DON'T-README would cause more people to read it...
perigrin jnthn: depends on the size of your nostrils ... also I point out that you can do anything potentially fatal at least once. 17:49
timotimo commit a symbolic link to the readme file, commit "hopefully the people who don't read the readme read the don't-readme."
lizmat .oO{ reminds me of that text-file called "secret", with as only contents the line "Access Denied" }
17:50 grondilu joined
TimToady in the old days, Configure might've said, "Hi, I see you've never accessed the README. Let me just pop it up for you now." :) 17:51
then again, it might not've.
timotimo aaw, that's awfully cute 17:52
what happens on noatime systems? :)
TimToady believes that's the first time he's ever seen the word "not've".
masak .oO( I'd've'nt )
timotimo i'd'ven'n ... yeah
perigrin I'd've'nt Calendar. 17:53
timotimo imagines the perl6 advent calendar will be even more exciting this year
TimToady maybe that's our problem, we keep counting up, when we should be counting down...
timotimo afk&
TimToady has the problem of reading that as a'f'k now... 17:54
17:57 not_gerd left 18:02 grondilu left
TimToady Fear may be the mind-killer, but lack of fear is the brain-killer. 18:02
18:02 Timbus left 18:04 Timbus joined
[Coke] Only I will remain. 18:04
TimToady [Coke] is it!
[Coke] *bow* 18:05
TimToady [Coke] is the real thing, it the back of your mind-killer.
*in
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benabik Parsing takes 1/5th the time on JVM as on Parrot? 18:10
ls
[Coke] I am not looking forward to changing autounfudge to understand vm backends. 18:11
segomos anyone know github::supernovus ? 18:14
timotimo he's on this channel every once in a while i believe
segomos thanks, i'll keep an eye out for him
[Coke] LHF? test if things that are skipped to null PMC errors work on parrot.jvm and skip only the parrot version.
timotimo last time on 2013-05-31
raiph I'm being asked if gather/take is built on continuations, coroutines, or threads. I'm thinking coros for niecza and parakudo, and jakudo will use continuations. I'm poking around source, commits, irc logs, etc. But would really appreciate answers from others... 18:16
yoleaux 03:35Z <sorear> raiph: I have never heard of a perl6 implementation without 100% lazy gather/take. Your questions are weird.
jnthn raiph: I believe Niecza does continuations, at lesat if sorear++ did them similar there to on Rakudo JVM. Rakudo Parrot uses coroutines. 18:17
raiph .tell sorear I'm being harassed about P6. Fwiw I meant strictly lazy (100%) vs mostly lazy (batched).
yoleaux raiph: I'll pass your message to sorear.
jnthn raiph: The spec doesn't, iirc, mandate approach.
timotimo harassed in a bad way or by friends who are interested to learn more?
jnthn raiph: Which is a good thing imho, as it means different targets can pick the appropriate solution. 18:18
raiph jnthn: right. but i'm trying to state which is currently being used by various implementations.
timotimo what's the plan for gather/take on moarvm? 18:19
raiph timotimo: it's being asked in a hostile way, but i want to give friendly answers
jnthn timotimo: I'm inclined to supply the same nqp:: ops that sorear implemented on JVM. 18:20
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jnthn timotimo: Though they can be implemented in a more efficient way in MoarVM. :) 18:20
pmurias raiph: I have experimented with partialy implementing the ops required for gather/take on node.js with threads
jnthn pmurias: OS threads or green threads? 18:21
pmurias pthreads
I played with using the fibers node module
which implement coroutines with pthreads and a lot of locks
* implements
raiph jnthn, pmurias: thanks! :) 18:23
timotimo raiph: good approach (kill them with kindness!)
jnthn So, what shall I work on tonight... :) 18:26
timotimo jnthn: can you get "callframe nyi" done easily? it seems to block a big amount of tests and it would make MAIN work :) 18:28
jnthn ergh
maybe
timotimo just a suggestion
otherwise, get "shell" running? that ought to be much easier /s 18:29
jnthn Well, the main tests may well go on to block on shell...
Depends how they're done I guess
Util r: .say for <abc def ghi>.map({ ~$/[0] if /.(.)./ }); # 1. RE in-lined
camelia rakudo ce8b5f: OUTPUT«b␤e␤h␤»
Util r: my $re = rx {.(.).}; .say for <abc def ghi>.map({ ~$/[0] if /<$re>/ }); # 2. RE in separate var 18:30
camelia rakudo ce8b5f: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context in block at /tmp/MkDfBQtl6f:1␤␤use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context in block at /tmp/MkDfBQtl6f:1␤␤use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context in block at /tmp/MkDfBQtl6…
Util r: my $re = rx {.(.).}; .say for <abc def ghi>.map({ ~$/<X>[0] if /$<X>=<$re>/ }); # 3. Work-around for broken #2.
camelia rakudo ce8b5f: OUTPUT«b␤e␤h␤»
Util 1. Shouldn't the second version work, according to S05?
2. Is there a better work-around than #3?
jnthn Util: You didn't capture anything in the second one
(<$re>) would work
<X=$re> is probably a neater way to do 3 18:31
timotimo jnthn: you're probably right about the shell blocking; no use implementing something that won't give a boost in test results immediately! ;) 18:32
jnthn Well, it will make callframe pass ;)
jnthn had hoped to troll sorear++ into doing shell :D
timotimo :D 18:33
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jnthn oh...maybe CallFrame can be implemented with cunning use of what already exists... 18:35
Util jnthn: I would think that #2 would capture, because the referenced RE has a capture in it. 18:37
Even if that is wrong, then how do I navigate to the data element (middle character) captured in $re ?
r: my $re = rx {.(.).}; .say for <abc def ghi>.map({ ~$/[0][0] if /(<$re>)/ }); # 4. Capturing #2
camelia rakudo ce8b5f: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context in block at /tmp/U2BFmTRBba:1␤␤use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context in block at /tmp/U2BFmTRBba:1␤␤use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context in block at /tmp/U2BFmTRBb…
jnthn r: my $re = rx {.(.).}; say 'abc' ~~ /(<$re>)/ 18:42
camelia rakudo ce8b5f: OUTPUT«｢abc｣␤ 0 => ｢abc｣␤␤»
jnthn Um. What happened to the inner match...
masak submits rakudobug 18:43
r: say 'abc' ~~ /(.(.).)/ 18:46
camelia rakudo ce8b5f: OUTPUT«｢abc｣␤ 0 => ｢abc｣␤ 0 => ｢b｣␤␤»
colomon errr…. 0 both times? 18:48
masak yes.
nested.
jnthn Note the extra indentation on the second
masak $/[0] and $/[0][0]
colomon It doesn't really show up in my IRC client
masak does here. 18:52
timotimo does here, too. but it's just 1 space fo rthe outer and 2 spaces for the inner match 18:53
dalek kudo/nom: f60a2c1 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/List.pm:
Optimize lexical out of hot loop in "uniq"

And I've now given up on using grep{} in uniq(), the tests succeeed, but strange unrelated things change, like giving the wrong error message:
  $ perl6 -e 'Module.new'
  ===SORRY!===
Cannot assign a non-Perl 6 value to a Perl 6 container		 18:59
TimToady the problem with /(<$re>)/ is that the <> is still going to throw away the captured material inside because it doesn't start with alpha
jnthn oh! 19:00
TimToady r: my $re = rx {.(.).}; say 'abc' ~~ /<0=$re>/
camelia rakudo ce8b5f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter < (must be quoted to match literally)␤at /tmp/oELPklkKhF:1␤------> my $re = rx {.(.).}; say 'abc' ~~ /<⏏0=$re>/␤Regex not terminated␤at /tmp/oELPklkKhF:1␤------> my $re = rx {.(…
pmurias jnthn: how can I determin if a lexical is stored (and more importantly serialized) as a native int/str/num?
TimToady hah
r: my $re = rx {.(.).}; say 'abc' ~~ /$0=<$re>/
camelia rakudo ce8b5f: OUTPUT«｢abc｣␤ 0 => ｢abc｣␤ 0 => ｢b｣␤␤»
masak \o/
TimToady: so the rakudobug is a dud?
TimToady arguably <0= should work
/(<$re>)/ is behaving correctly 19:01
jnthn pmurias: The static info associated with the lexical scope in question has that info.
masak marks the rakudobug 'rejected'
TimToady n: my $re = rx {.(.).}; say 'abc' ~~ /<0=$re>/
camelia niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Unrecognized regex assertion at /tmp/QWC1fmcv4d line 1:␤------> my $re = rx {.(.).}; say 'abc' ~~ /<⏏0=$re>/␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
pmurias jnthn: and in the QAST it's determined by the .returns on QAST::Var? 19:02
TimToady ponders making that work
jnthn pmurias: Same thing that is used to implement nqp::lexprimspec(), fwiw
pmurias: Yes
dalek rl6-roast-data: 995b704 | coke++ | / (5 files):
today (automated commit)
jnthn pmurias: Using nqp::objprimspec on what's in .returns 19:03
masak std: my $re = rx {.(.).}; say 'abc' ~~ /<0=$re>/
camelia std 85cf51d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unrecognized regex assertion at /tmp/6nyYNWTxAa line 1:␤------> my $re = rx {.(.).}; say 'abc' ~~ /<⏏0=$re>/␤ expecting assertion␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 45m␤»
jnthn [Coke]++
yay, we gained 69 tests :)
masak '0=' feels a bit less clear to me than '$0='. but beyond that I'm not vested either way. 19:04
lizmat continues "what if Nil inherits from Mu" scenario 19:05
pmurias jnthn: thanks
colomon \o/ 19:06
lizmat looking for feedback: gist.github.com/lizmat/5921809 19:12
jnthn timotimo: Think I may have got a CallFrame that works :)
jnthn pops it into the setting and tries to build it
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jnthn timotimo: oh, it did help those two MAIN tests :) 19:17
[Coke] jnthn++
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masak lizmat: looking at f60a2c1, I'm wondering if it's not a bit of a zero-sum thing. 19:20
timotimo didn't even see the commit that did anything
oh, that's because you didn't commit it yet! never mind :)
cool beans! :)
lizmat masak: you mean it doesn't matter if the lexical gets created again and again inside the loop, or only once outside ? 19:21
masak lizmat: yes, you save a lexical sitting in the pad of the loop body... but now the var lookup has to do an OUTER lookup with each access instead.
timotimo huh? perl6-bench has niecza in the nqp list. does that even make sense?
dalek kudo/nom: 2208156 | jnthn++ | src/core/CallFrame.pm:
Implement CallFrame.

Seems line number is off by one, but works otherwise. Unbusts 3 test files, two of which pass in full, one with one failure.		 19:22
masak lizmat: a properly optimizing compiler, and maybe we even do this already, should realize that it can re-use the memory of the pad of the last loop iteration.
lizmat $ time perl6 -e 'my $a; for ^1000000 { $a = 1 }'
real0m3.515s
user0m3.052s
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lizmat $ time perl6 -e 'for ^1000000 { my $a = 1 }' 19:22
real0m4.491s
user0m3.990s
masak ok, fair enough. that's a data point I can accept. :)
jnthn Walking a frame up is not costly. :) 19:23
lizmat once we're there, we can fix it, but as jnthn said earlier today
masak ok.
lizmat it better be fast if its in the setting
masak aye.
timotimo tries to set up perl6-bench to clone and properly make rakudo-jvm
lizmat but for the life of it, I still don't understand why I can't implement "uniq" with a grep instead of gather / take 19:24
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jnthn lizmat: I suspect changing Nil first depends on finding places Nil is used in ways incompatible with its new meaning... 19:24
lizmat ok, I'll just search for Nil and make changes :-) 19:25
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not_gerd question about Int semantics: should 17 +< -3 end up as 17 +> 3? 19:25
masak not_gerd: the only two reasonable semantics I can think of are: (a) what you suggest, or (b) max($rhs, 0) 19:27
[Coke] If you can't trick sorear into doing shell, I may be able to, depending on how tricky java makes it.
not_gerd masak: Parrot does the former with its INTVAL type (and Rakudo will do the same after I'll submit a patch), whereas Niecza does the latter 19:29
TimToady has put Nil outside of Any in niecza and is now testing to see if there are any regressions 19:31
(but niecza does dispatch to === differently, so is perhaps less sensitive to the change)
lizmat TimToady: rakduo can't make settings with Nil in Mu
pmurias jnthn: if I access a non static lexical from a code refs, that is declared in a scope which hasn't been initialized yet, what should happen?
TimToady lizmat: well, so far it appears that niecza can :) 19:32
lizmat grrrrrrrrrr :-)
masak pmurias: Any. 19:33
pmurias: I've managed to create a few such situations. they're fun.
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masak r: class Z { method foo { my $x = 42; method bar { say $x } } }; Z.new.bar 19:34
camelia rakudo f60a2c: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
masak pmurias: like that, you mean?
TimToady wonders if a method defined inside another routine should be considered a method on the routine rather than on the outer class... 19:35
benabik That's... curious.
jnthn TimToady: Ouch!!! 19:36
benabik Does that code replace bar every time foo is called?
masak TimToady: that's... a bit too cute...
benabik: let's find out!
benabik
.oO( 1... 2... 3... *segfault* )
masak r: class Z { method foo { method bar { state $x = 0; say ++$x } } }; given Z.new { .bar; .foo; .bar } 19:37
camelia rakudo f60a2c: OUTPUT«1␤2␤»
masak benabik: ...no.
jnthn pmurias: I think it ends up doing something auto-closely...
*closey
Which means it gets the static lexicals
Or something like that :)
masak aye. 19:38
arnsholt [Coke]: Continuing from #parrot, there was a blog post from one of the JRuby folks about the pains of implementing Ruby subprocess stuff on JVM
masak that's what happens in the first case above.
benabik r: class Z { method foo { my $x = 42; method bar { say $x } } }; my $_=Z.new; .bar; .foo; .bar
camelia rakudo f60a2c: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Redeclaration of symbol $_␤ at /tmp/YpC8rIQHNf:1␤ ------> x = 42; method bar { say $x } } }; my $_⏏=Z.new; .bar; .foo; .bar␤(Any)␤42␤»
jnthn masak: No, it won't replace the method every time. Once you install something in the meta-object, it stays there. And it happens at compile time.
masak benabik: you don't do 'my $_'
benabik arnsholt: Ah, yes, that was what I was thinking of.
r: class Z { method foo { my $x = 42; method bar { say $x } } };$_=Z.new; .bar; .foo; .bar
camelia rakudo f60a2c: OUTPUT«(Any)␤42␤»
masak jnthn: right.
jnthn: that makes a whole lot of sense.
benabik That one confuses me. Does it just reassign the outer context of bar every time foo is called? 19:39
jnthn kills the "Too late to set file handle encoding" error
arnsholt benabik: Might be, yeah
jnthn benabik: Think that's what it does at the moment, at least. 19:40
benabik n: class Z { method foo { my $x = 42; method bar { say $x } } };$_=Z.new; .bar; .foo; .bar
camelia niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Methods must be used in some kind of package at /tmp/wqxyqrjm2F line 1:␤------> Z { method foo { my $x = 42; method bar ⏏{ say $x } } };$_=Z.new; .bar; .foo; .ba␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /h…
benabik Well, niecza's response is unsurprising at least. :-)
jnthn In Rakudo, the current package is $*PACKAGE, so it really doesn't care what your nesting level is :) 19:41
lizmat jnthn: I think I have the pb golfed down:
$ perl6 -e 'sub a { say @_ }; a(Nil)'
===SORRY!===
Odd number of elements found where hash expected
jnthn (at compile time, that is)
lizmat: If the setting won't start, doesn't everything fail with that? :)
r: sub a { say @_ }; a(Nil)
camelia rakudo f60a2c: OUTPUT«␤»
TimToady looks like that wants to be () rather than Nil 19:42
lizmat but there are many places in the setting where Nil is passed as a parameter
TimToady which if fine as an item, but not fine when it wants to mean () 19:43
lizmat something like: nqp::ifnull($coro($block), Nil);
or: my $parcel := &RETURN-PARCEL(nqp::p6parcel(nqp::p6argvmarray(), Nil)); 19:44
masak r: class Z { method x { my $x = "a man"; say $x; method y { my $y = "with a plan"; say "$x $y"; method z { my $z = "for a canal"; say "$x $y $z" } } } }; given Z.new { .x; .y; .z } 19:45
camelia rakudo f60a2c: OUTPUT«a man␤a man with a plan␤a man with a plan for a canal␤»
masak :D
pmurias masak: yes 19:46
lizmat or: THROW(Nil, nqp::const::CONTROL_PROCEED)
jnthn r: say "amanaplanacanalpanama".flip # :P
camelia rakudo f60a2c: OUTPUT«amanaplanacanalpanama␤»
timotimo hm, the lack of make install is turning out to be a little obstacle.
pmurias jnthn,masak: shouldn't that be an error?
jnthn pmurias: What about it are you thinking should be one? 19:48
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masak I also don't follow. 19:50
dalek p: f8409e7 | jnthn++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/ (2 files):
Fix spurious "too late to set encoding" errors.
 19:51
masak the nearest thing we have to "the lexpad of this slot was never even incarnated!" is... "(Any)"
not_gerd TimToady: FROGGS and me are currently implementing numeric shift of Int with two's complement semantics (but generalized to arbitrary precision)
shifty by negative amount end up as shifts in opposite direction
should that be spec? 19:52
masak r: for ^0 { my $x = 42; our sub foo { say $x } }; our &foo; foo()
camelia rakudo f60a2c: OUTPUT«No such method 'Any' for invocant of type 'Parcel'␤ in block at /tmp/0Pv3NsZCbd:1␤␤»
masak hrm.
r: for ^1 { my $x = 42; our sub foo { say $x } }; our &foo; foo()
camelia rakudo f60a2c: OUTPUT«No such method 'Any' for invocant of type 'Parcel'␤ in block at /tmp/Iqu1jPs7PZ:1␤␤»
timotimo ooooh! good one, jnthn. does that make open/slurp/... work? 19:53
masak seems to me 'our' grows more useless by the month.
jnthn timotimo: Yes, slurp now works :)
Except the Buf case
timotimo that's pretty excellent! :)
not_gerd TimToady: Rakudo used to implement sign-magnitude semantics, and Niecza uses C# semantics (with 32-bit overflow weirdness) 19:54
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pmurias jnthn: accessing a non existing variable 19:55
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jnthn pmurias: Variable declarations are compile time, so it must at some level exist. 19:57
timotimo i'm amused that the latest rakudo commit has 0815 in the first few hex-characters 19:58
(and is otherwise digit-only for quite a bit) 19:59
masak pmurias: what jnthn said. you essentially can't "fall out into the void". the worst thing that can ever happen is that you get a static lexpad. 20:00
timotimo it seems like perl6-bench doesn't have a way to do cd at all in the build steps :o 20:01
Ulti huwah www.rakudo.com 20:02
o___O
timotimo tee hee
Util Thank you, to all who worked on /$re/ above. The <X=$re> and /$0=<$re>/ alternatives are both very helpful for my code today. 20:05
Still, this leaves me worried. In Perl 5, a simple swap of a long inline /RE/ for /$re/ is a common use case.
Do I understand correctly, that to do such a swap in Perl 6, one must either (a) rework the RE into a grammar (so <alpha> works),
or (b) rework every access of a captured datum (e.g. $1 becomes $0.[1]) ?
lue hello world o/ 20:06
masak I'm also surprised at whatever rule makes it not a clean substitution.
seems to work against refactorability.
Util masak: Yes, exactly 20:07
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jnthn Does anybody happen to know where derived unicode char properties like ASCIIHexDigit or IDSBinaryOperator are defined? 20:07
Whenever I search for them, I find the Perl manpages :P 20:08
benabik jnthn: ftp://www.unicode.org/Public/3.2-Update/DerivedProperties-3.2.0.html ? 20:09
No, that wasn't the right page. I think they name it something odd.
jnthn Yeah, already found that one. It doesn't contain the stuff properties-derived.t is testing. 20:10
benabik I seem to remember a goodly-sized table on the unicode site with that stuff.
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jnthn aha... www.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/PropList.txt 20:12
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Util jnthn: Yes, PropList.txt is copied whole-cloth into Perl 5's lib/unicore/ 20:13
[Coke] ew. 20:14
timotimo oh wow, i'm getting a segfault in the jvm while building stage1/gen/QAST.nqp 20:16
JRE version: 7.0_21-b02 - that *is* new enough, yeah?
jnthn update 21 is typically good :S 20:17
timotimo huh, now it's getting past that
should i be worried about my hardware?
[Coke] jnthn: how evil will it be if we need to use JNI to implement shell() ?
timotimo anyway, it seems like my efforts to put rakudo-jvm into perl6-bench are going to bear fruit 20:18
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jnthn [Coke]: Sounds...evil. 20:20
20:21 bruges left
pmurias masak: I understand why that currently works, what I'm worried about is that something that we want to work, that is isn't that just masking an error? 20:22
timotimo benchmarks rakudo-jvm with japhb++ 's perl6-bench
masak pmurias: your sentence does not fully parse for me. 20:25
pmurias: yes, of course it is -- quite literally -- masking an error.
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masak pmurias: what I'm saying is that I prefer an "(Any)" in such a scenario to a Null PMC access. 20:26
which was very much the norm in the pre-nom days.
(or was it pre-b? I forget.)
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pmurias retyped sentence: I understand why that currently works. What I'm worried about, is that something that we want to work? Isn't that just masking an error? 20:27
masak: wouldn't an exception be even better?
masak I dunno -- I think I've made peace with static lexpads. 20:28
so I don't really see it as "we're hiding an error", even.
just a very wacky case of "oops, you didn't properly initialize that variable! well, here you go, have an (Any)."
Moukeddar o/ #perl6
o/ masak
masak Moukeddar! \o/ 20:29
Moukeddar miss you guys
masak if you were here more often, maybe you'd contribute to Perl 6 -- so we miss you too, I guess ;) 20:30
pmurias masak: and what about assignment?
masak pmurias: you can't assign to the static lexpad. 20:31
it's static.
20:32 dmol left
benabik r: class Z { method foo { my $x = 0; method bar { $x = 1; say $x } } }; given Z.new { .bar; .foo; .bar } 20:33
camelia rakudo 220815: OUTPUT«1␤1␤»
benabik :-/
r: class Z { method foo { my $x = 0; method bar { print $x; $x = 1; say $x } } }; given Z.new { .bar; .foo; .bar } 20:34
camelia rakudo 220815: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context in method bar at /tmp/Wzs8sJnda_:1␤␤1␤01␤»
20:34 stevan_ left
benabik Oh, yes. say ≠ print + "\n" 20:34
masak no surprises there.
benabik r: class Z { method foo { my $x = 0; method bar { say $x; $x = 1; say $x } } }; given Z.new { .bar; .foo; .bar }
camelia rakudo 220815: OUTPUT«(Any)␤1␤0␤1␤»
timotimo such a benchmark run is taking quite a lot of time! i hope i didn't do anything terribly wrong and waste all that time ... 20:35
benabik masak: Is that not assigning to the static lexpad?
masak benabik: no. 20:36
benabik: what's static about it?
or, hm.
yes, I see what you mean.
jnthn Note that static lexpad points to a scalar container
Which itself is, well, a container. :) 20:37
masak ok, so it all works out :)
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Ulti is there a way to use multi dispatch in a junction sort of way, so if I have for example multi sub factorial (0|1) {1} rather than factorial (0) {1} and factorial (1) {1} 20:44
jnthn $ where 0|1 probably works 20:45
Ulti aha
benabik Does multi foo(0|1) only get called via foo(0|1)? 20:46
Ulti that's starting to feel like being clever for clever's sake rather than elegance though
benabik it causes a parse error atm
"Missing block"
benabik ah
Ulti but yeah that's what I was thinking its a junction literal, so kind of creates a quirky exception to the rule if it worked how I wanted 20:47
benabik Depends on how literals in multi sigs match. If they're smart matched, it would make perfect sense. 20:48
dalek p: 324f6eb | jnthn++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/runtime/Ops.java:
Handle a bunch of the derived properties.
Ulti jnthn: that worked :)
20:49 sdo joined
sdo hello 20:49
masak sdo: hello.
sdo masak: hello
:)
masak hello. :)
masak peers out of the web browser at sdo
jnthn
.oO( is this IRC or an SMTP handshake? )
timotimo jnthn: that really ought to have been a binary search ;)
jnthn timotimo: Not entirely sure it's worth it :) 20:50
sdo Is there a difference wetween my $a=1; and my $b:=2; ?
[Coke] NAK
Ulti hmm though I think I'd have to do Int $ where 0|1 to make sure the Int type is enforced, since it was implied with the literal value before
labster hello?
sdo Is there a difference between my $a=1; and my $b:=2; ?
timotimo jnthn: not sure if it's ever not worth it, but what do i know about the jvm?
sdo sorry about that
masak sdo: yes, assignment and binding are different.
timotimo perl6: my $a := 1; $a++; say $a;
camelia niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Writing to readonly scalar␤ at /tmp/1YR5z5KSFU line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4579 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4580 (module-CORE @ 576) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/li…
..rakudo 220815: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable value␤ in sub postfix:<++> at src/gen/CORE.setting:3613␤ in sub postfix:<++> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2064␤ in block at /tmp/QsYyem6Maq:1␤␤»
timotimo perl6: my $a = 1; $a++; say $a;
camelia rakudo 220815, niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«2␤»
masak what timotimo said.
jnthn timotimo: It may be more efficient, but otoh the lists of numbers ain't that long.
timotimo the last one is pretty huge 20:51
masak sdo: it's the different between assignment's "here, let's put this value in this container pointed to by this variable" and bindings "here, let's *bind* this variable directly to this value"
jnthn Unfortunately, this still doesn't quite nail properties-derived.t 20:52
sdo yes I guess it is kinda constant then.?
timotimo but a few tests now pass, right?
jnthn Gets us to 204 out of 256 though... 20:53
timotimo sounds great! it was 0 before?
masak sdo: yes. they fill different purposes.
jnthn timotimo: yeah
masak sdo: binding is the "unusual" one. but it turns up in routine signatures, for example.
sdo masak: thanx a lot
[Coke] timotimo: github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/b...y.out#L661
masak sdo: yw
you'll find we're helpful here ;) 20:54
timotimo awesome! :)
masak and a bit funny... :)
jnthn Though of the non-skipped just need Math, ID_Start and ID_Continue
20:55 sdo left 20:57 skids left
TimToady masak: the P5ish refactoring of regexen via variables depends crucially on the misfeature of treating regexes as strings. In P6 this would be more in the province of textual macros. 20:58
timotimo does turning $foo++ into ++$foo if the previous value was never used make sense as an optimization at the QAST level?
TimToady what, he want to know sink context at *compile* time? horrors... 20:59
timotimo oh, sink context ...
TimToady P5 does precisely that optimization 21:00
only, of course, it's called void context there :)
timotimo i thought it might be enough to check if the var that gets created to hold the temporary value gets used somewhere
but yeah ...
dalek p: 56e602e | jnthn++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/runtime/Ops.java:
The rest we need for properties-derived.t.
 21:05
jnthn OK, there's one more test file :)
nwc10 what were the most recent numbers for passing? and how many hours out of date are they? :-) 21:06
jnthn The last run was before any of my work this evening. 21:07
[Coke] I will probably not be updating anything else this evening. 21:08
jnthn That's fine :)
[Coke] but I am about to hit a 4 day weekend, which hopefully will have some hacking time.
21:08 sdo joined
[Coke] >> commute 21:08
jnthn o/
nwc10: grr, getting timeouts from github, so can't tell you the number :(
sdo hello all my apologies for being rude with you :-( 21:09
timotimo i had them open a few moments ago; it was like 92.58% or something
lizmat 92.55%
jnthn There we go.
timotimo and both rakudo and rakudo-jvm went up ~100 tests since yesterday
lizmat my make spectest is hanging on github
timotimo 160?
TimToady not_gerd: yes, negative shifts should probably be spec
tadzik masak: something for you: twitter.com/brucel/status/352398305113817088 21:10
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colomon lizmat: I'm having trouble with github as well 21:10
masak tadzik: hehe. 21:11
tadzik: not an autopun, though. just a pun. :)
timotimo just 9 benchmarks to go until i have some results for rakudo-jvm ... and then i'll need to do rakudo.parrot to compare :| 21:12
jnthn tadzik: lol!
21:12 sdo left
lizmat (spectest running now after timeout) 21:12
jnthn masak: Not an autopun, but I have no beef with it :P
tadzik masak: yep :)
timotimo "We are currently investigating problems accessing a number of GitHub services. We will update with more information as soon as we have it.
masak tadzik: I'm smiling because I'm imagining that tweet being read to me in your amused voice, though :) 21:15
colomon git pull just worked for me.
timotimo The sites appear to have recovered from an upstream network outage. We will keep this status event open while we continue to investigate. 21:16
tadzik :D
timotimo okay, now that slurp and probably a few other open related things work ... how long until panda? tadzik? :)
masak .oO( "we have panda minus two days, three hours, thirty minutes" ) 21:17
Ulti how do you define the precedence of your own operators?
jnthn is prec(...)
Ulti thanks
jnthn Or is tighter/is looser/is equiv is more convenient.
Ulti take it thats not in S03 :S
masak I would recommend the latter. 21:18
jnthn S06 iirc
Ulti k k
Ulti reads
cool thanks
this is easily becoming the most convoluted implementation of factorial :/
jnthn r: sub postfix:<!>($n) { [*] 1..$n }; say 10! 21:19
:P
camelia rakudo 220815: OUTPUT«3628800␤»
tadzik timotimo: how long until panda what? :)
I know, I know
I plan to take a Free Friday, so I may do some hacking
masak r: sub p { [*] 1..$^n }; say p 10
camelia rakudo 220815: OUTPUT«3628800␤»
lizmat jnthn: it seems that .pop needs to be "is rw" because of .unshift: nqp::unshift($!items, @elems.pop) 21:20
would it make sense to fix that, if so how?
timotimo Useless use of "+" in expression "$i + $j" in sink context (lines 1, 1, 1, 1) - oh my
ah 21:21
yes, indeed
is there a form of # OK that i can put in -e properly?
jnthn lizmat: Why does that require it to be "is rw"? 21:22
lizmat let me put it this way: if .pop is not marked "is rw", any unshifted values are ro
jnthn r: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b; @b.unshift(@a); say @a; say @b;
camelia rakudo 220815: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤1 2 3␤»
jnthn r: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b; @b.unshift(@a); @a[2] = 4; say @a; say @b; 21:23
camelia rakudo 220815: OUTPUT«1 2 4␤1 2 3␤»
jnthn *phew*
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lizmat indeed, that;s because I didn't commit the change yet 21:24
jnthn lizmat: oh, I guess it's relying on .pop making containers for the things that get shoved into $!item
lizmat yup
masak that just feels like wrong reasoning to me.
colomon +1
masak for some reason.
jnthn masak: What is?
masak "because unshift" but it's not because of unshift. 21:25
I'm not criticizing lizmat++ by the way. only the previous reasoning that led someone to believe unshift was involved.
jnthn masak: unshift relies on .pop returning something with a scalar container; if .pop doesn't do that, unshift needs tweaking. 21:26
lizmat no, unshift is relying on the "is rw" behavior of .pop
masak r: my @a; @a.unshift(5); @a[0] = 77; say @a.perl
camelia rakudo 220815: OUTPUT«Array.new(77)␤»
jnthn masak: I'm not saying pop is the way it is because of unshift, just that unshift has a dependency on the way pop currently is.
masak there, I just unshifted something decontainerized, no?
it works. 21:27
lizmat not if you take away "is rw" ffrom .pop
jnthn multi method unshift(List:D: *@elems) {
masak lizmat: I didn't even use pop!
I just unshifted a 5
lizmat you did, because unshift uses that
jnthn masak: The IMPLEMENTATION of unshift uses .pop
masak oh!
ok, now I'm with you.
jnthn :)
lizmat *phew* :-)
masak why the heck does unshift use pop?! :) 21:28
jnthn while @elems {
nqp::unshift($!items, @elems.pop)
}
colomon and doesn't just use .pop, but requires a weird version of .pop
masak unshift and pop seem equally primitive to me.
jnthn It's 'cus you can unshift multiple items.
masak right. *that's* what's wrong.
what colomon said.
jnthn Note it's a slurpy.
Yeah
masak if unshift is the only thing that wants pop to be 'is rw', then unshift is weird and wrong. 21:29
lizmat so far, that seems the only place
jnthn Note that shift is also marked as "is rw"
So it's not a weird accident just for pop.
colomon what about something like for @elems.reverse { nap::unshift($!items, $_) } ?
timotimo aaw, i get some stack overflow errors in the benchmarking and rc-forest-fire is dieing from not being able to call Numeric on something (perhaps in the MAIN?) 21:30
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masak colomon: looks much saner to me. 21:30
jnthn r: my @a = 1,2,3; my $x := @a.shift; $x = 4; say $x; say @a; 21:31
camelia rakudo 220815: OUTPUT«4␤2 3␤»
jnthn Does the spec rule either way on the above?
lizmat r: my @a=1,2,3; my $b= @a.pop = 4; say $b
camelia rakudo 220815: OUTPUT«4␤»
21:31 Rotwang left, PacoAir left
lizmat r: my @a=1,2,3; my $b= @a.pop = 4; say $b; say @a 21:31
camelia rakudo 220815: OUTPUT«4␤1 2␤»
jnthn If we're gonna go changing pop, we'd better change shift too... 21:32
lizmat doing some tests now
jnthn TimToady: Opinion? :)
dalek ast: c39a7ca | (Brent Laabs)++ | S (2 files):
add canonpath :parent tests for unix
lizmat jnthn: wouldn't nqp::pop() as an alternative to .pop be sufficient ? 21:34
fg
oops, ww 21:35
jnthn lizmat: No, 'cus we have a Perl 6 array
colomon Trying to think like TimToady: why just shift and pop? 21:37
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masak census! \o/ 21:37
census hi masak! :) 21:38
thanks for the friendly greeting :)
colomon r: my @a = 1,2,3; my $x := @a.first(* %% 2); $x = 4;
21:38 pmurias left
camelia rakudo 220815: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a readonly variable or a value␤ in block at /tmp/ZPjiZIbKd5:1␤␤» 21:38
colomon r: my @a = 1,2,3; my $x := @a.pop; $x = 4; 21:39
camelia rakudo 220815: ( no output )
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masak colomon: right. good one. 21:41
I'd expect, intuitively, the .pop case to be equally as wrong as the .first case.
colomon n: my @a = 1,2,3; my $x := @a.pop; $x = 4; 21:42
camelia niecza v24-86-g39ab531: ( no output )
colomon n: my @a = 1,2,3; my $x := @a.first(* %% 2); $x = 4;
camelia niecza v24-86-g39ab531: ( no output )
colomon on niecza it works in either case, I guess.
hmm 21:45
rn: my $x := 4; $x = 5; say $x
camelia niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Writing to readonly scalar␤ at /tmp/qOAoZOVLFn line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4579 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4580 (module-CORE @ 576) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/li…
..rakudo 220815: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable value␤ in block at /tmp/eOH3POeSPr:1␤␤»
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lizmat running spectest with a fix for .unshift 21:54
colomon my test run just now shows an additional 220 tests passing since my last run 19 hours ago. that actually sounds low to me...
hmmm… 169 passing tests from S05-mass/properties-derived.t. Maybe it is right. 21:56
lizmat I've added some tests for squish(), but that really shouldn't make that much of a difference
21:56 BooK left, bluescreen10 left
colomon ah, lots of skips in S05-mass/properties-derived.t 21:56
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lizmat what are the thoughts of unshifting or pushing an infinite list to an array? 22:19
should that work assuming the reificiation will stop at some point? 22:20
masak I don't see anything wrong with it.
timotimo i made a comparison of perl5, rakudo and rakudo-jvm based on japhb's test suite
er benchmark suite
masak except that you'll never be able to .gimme the .push'd things because they are after infinitely many other things.
lizmat masak: so it's ok that a program hangs until it has eaten all of memory? 22:21
masak but that's a minor detail.
lizmat: oh, I was assuming a model that doesn't hang on just pushing to an infinite list.
lizmat r: my @a; @a.unshift( 1..Inf ) # is what I'm talking about
masak doesn't look obviously hanging to me.
camelia rakudo 220815: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
lizmat (it does) :-) 22:22
masak sure, but that's just by current implementation.
lizmat: you know as well as anyone that preventing all such hangs is a fool's errand. :)
22:22 Moukeddar left
lizmat I'm just thinking the obvious ones 22:23
masak that's probably fine.
but again, I don't see why .unshift( 1..Inf ) would be automatically outlawed.
timotimo throws nqp and nqp-jvm into the mix of benchmarked things 22:25
TimToady a couple years ago we decided that push had to be eager or it would violate the expectations of P5 programmers
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TimToady that's why there's supposed to be a .plan that is not eager 22:25
masak right, but this is about pushing an infinite list, not pushing *to* an infinite list.
but maybe that's what you mean, too. hm. 22:26
lizmat r: my @a=1..Inf; push @a, 1 # teh latter is already outlawed 22:27
camelia rakudo 220815: OUTPUT«Cannot .push to an infinite list␤current instr.: 'throw' pc 367293 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:158222) (src/gen/CORE.setting:9211)␤called from Sub 'sink' pc 400882 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:171118) (src/gen/CORE.setting:10496)␤called from Sub 'MAIN' pc 396 (src/gen/p…
lizmat r: my @a; @a.push( 1.. Inf ) # should this fail in a similar manner?
jnthn timotimo: Results anywhere?
camelia rakudo 220815: OUTPUT«(timeout)» 22:28
timotimo jnthn: i can surely upload the current results, hold on
colomon TimToady: @a.plan is like @a.push but just adds the iterator it is passed to the end of @a's iterator, or something along those lines? 22:30
timotimo t.h8.lv/p6bench/p5-rp-rj.html - there you go
in a tight loop in NQP, wouldn't nqp::push(@a, $i) be a couple times faster than @a.push: $i? 22:32
er, @a.push($i) rather
lizmat timotimo: does nqp::push now about infinite arrays ? 22:33
masak lizmat: the thing with outlawing the obvious cases is -- well, now you've forbidden something that is obviously stupid. 22:34
lizmat: the subtly stupid things are still allowed.
jnthn timotimo: yes 22:35
timotimo i wonder if i should change the microbenchmark in japhb's perl6-bench suite to reflect that?
jnthn timotimo: uh, I mean, thanks :)
dalek p: 0ed0a48 | (Gerhard R)++ | src/vm/parrot/ops/nqp_bigint.ops:
Unify shift ops. Shifting by negative amounts flips direction.
lizmat so, is it the overhead of the extra check that you're worried about? letting all suffer for those few dumbo's that might do something wrong ?
jnthn oh wait, I meant yes too :)
hah ) 22:36
timotimo :)
masak lizmat: well, no, because it could be a compile-time check.
lizmat: I'm just saying that while it'd be useful, it would have a very restricted use.
lizmat: a bit like "oh, you tried to divide by the constant 0 here. that's not possible!"
lizmat not really, as that will bomb immediately 22:37
masak (which gets a little better with constant folding, granted, but I don't see constant folding giving us infinite lists to the same degree)
dalek ast: 4c4395d | (Gerhard R)++ | S03-operators/numeric-shift.t:
Check numeric shifts for two's complement semantics.
lizmat these cases will eat up all resources that they can
masak I guess what I'm saying is I don't know exactly what windmill it is you're trying to topple here, and why. 22:38
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lizmat well, I'm not sure anymore either: I just found some checks for infinite lists in the pop/push/shift/unshift area 22:38
and realised there were 2 checks missing in the unshift/push case 22:39
BTW: t/spec/S16-unfiled/rebindstdhandles.t seems to be failing now, unrelated to my changes afaics
seems jnthn's last commit is to blame ? 22:40
22:40 snoopy left 22:41 not_gerd left
jnthn lizmat: My last commit? Implementing CallFrame support for JVM? 22:41
lizmat ok, then it was my code, doublechecking
jnthn I mean, it's possible, just feels...weird. :)
lizmat Cannot use bind operator with this left-hand side 22:42
Radvendii hey, sorry to bother y'all, but I have a question that doesn't appear to be answered online
can I disable necesity of declaring variables? I want to type '$var="foo"' without the 'my 22:43
'
lizmat seems labster uncommented the fudge for that error today 22:44
masak Radvendii: I believe Niecza supports that.
n: 6; $var = 'foo'; say $var
camelia niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Variable $var is not predeclared at /tmp/SlGEgHd7IP line 1:␤------> 6; ⏏$var = 'foo'; say $var␤␤Variable $var is not predeclared at /tmp/SlGEgHd7IP line 1:␤------> 6; $var = 'foo'; say ⏏$var…
jnthn Rakudo doesn't; I guess it's "no strict;" though.
masak n: no strict; $var = 'foo'; say $var 22:45
camelia niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object␤ at Niecza.StashCursor.Core (System.String key, Boolean final, Niecza.StashCursor& sc, Niecza.Variable& v, Niecza.Variable bind_to) [0x00000] in <file…
masak huh.
lizmat no strict is NYI , isn''t it ?
jnthn lizmat: In Rakudo it's NYI. I thought Niecza had it...
lizmat .oO{ triple negation, wow}
masak ISTR Niecza had it at some point...
Radvendii Okay... I guess I'll wait for it. Funny though "no" is supposed to be *not* including a module. I would expect no strict to be implemented before use strict... 22:46
timotimo t.h8.lv/p6bench/p5-rp-rj-np.html <- added nqp-parrot, nqp-jvm coming up some time after that
(this is before the nqp::push replacement was made) 22:48
labster oh, sorry about rebindstdhandles.t, that was a git thinko
dalek ast: 6ef8223 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S16-unfiled/rebindstdhandles.t:
Restore fudge for binding to $:ERR
masak Radvendii: it's historical reasons. 'use strict' needs to be switched on in Perl 5. in Perl 6 it's "on by default".
lizmat labster: ok, it just threw me off for a bit 22:49
Radvendii masak: okay, thanks. 22:50
masak 'night, #perl6
lizmat night masak!
timotimo night masak!
labster night masak!! 22:51
22:51 BenGoldberg joined
dalek kudo/nom: 25e2f6b | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/List.pm:
Add some checks for dumbo's trying to unshift/push infinite lists
 22:51
22:54 Radvendii left
lizmat goodnight #perl6! sleep& 22:58
jnthn Think I'll get some rest also. 'night, #perl6
timotimo aaw 23:00
was just about to post the results with nqp-jvm thrown into the mix
(doing forest fire right now) 23:01
23:02 BooK joined
timotimo t.h8.lv/p6bench/p5-rp-rj-np-nj.html - here we go. benchmarks with rakudo-{parrot,jvm}, nqp-{parrot,jvm} and perl5 23:04
23:09 Khisanth left
timotimo t.h8.lv/p6bench/nqppush_fixed.html - this is with @a.push replaced with nqp::push(@a...) in the nqp microbenchmarks "while_push" and "while_push_join" 23:15
the difference is noticable. 23:16
labster It looks like P6 on most of these tasks are only O(100) times slower than P5 now. 23:18
timotimo hm ... hooray? 23:20
it is pretty cool that nqp-jvm beats perl5 at forest fire at the very highest number of iterations
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timotimo ah, the forest fire might suffer from use of junctions 23:23
nope, that's not it. 23:25
hm, is === faster than == when comparing items from an enum? 23:27
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timotimo is not able to get faster code out of the forest fire 23:41
or maybe i *am*! 23:42
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timotimo nope. nothing i can do here :| 23:46
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