»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, std:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by masak on 12 May 2015.
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raydiak good afternoon, #perl6 00:11
vendethiel o/ raydiak 00:13
raydiak \o vendethiel; working on anything interesting? 00:14
vendethiel raydiak: not really, no, I was playing games with friends :P
raydiak what game? I ought to try one again some time... 00:15
vendethiel raydiak: borderlands 2 :) 00:18
raydiak realizes his age as he has no idea what borderlands is, and goes to read :) 00:19
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raydiak neat, I think my laptop might even handle it once I clean out the fan again (scorching summer here, setting records for my city) 00:24
haven't been very active here lately myself, got some work painting a house for a few weeks, so spending part of a day off checking to see if all my modules still work on latest rakudo and so forth 00:29
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ugexe m: my $path1; my $path2 = ''; say $path1.?IO.is-absolute; say $path2.?IO.is-absolute; # could it be more useful if $path2.?IO did not die? 00:36
camelia rakudo-moar 2e612a: OUTPUT«Nil␤Must specify something as a path: did you mean '.' for the current directory?␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/7i2MBik27k:1␤␤»
cognominal ...travelling to see the World.nqp instead of sleeping 00:42
raydiak ugexe: that die for '' is something lizmat++ put in after one of my projects rm -rf'd itself due to a GLR change...so I'd argue that it'd be better if $path1 *did* die :) 00:43
ugexe i dont want to actually do anything. i want to check if a path is absolute, but not being able to check "" doesnt seem correct 00:47
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ugexe or a better way than saying !$path || $path.IO.is-absolute ?? $path !! $path.IO.abspath 00:49
vendethiel raydiak: well, I did manage to get a few more compile-time NULLRepr 00:55
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raydiak ugexe: myself, I'd rather that any attempt to treat an empty string or undefined value as a path died immediately...if I'm seeing any of those things where I should see a path string, something has probably gone wrong upstream 01:29
though I can see an argument for wanting to treat it as the current directory (which is how my project self-destructed) 01:30
but I wouldn't be in favor of it working for certain operations (like .is-relative), but not others
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ugexe in this case the string is going to get absolute-ified one way or another, which involves $*CWD during the $*SPEC. methods (since a string cant carry its $*CWD around with it) 02:50
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brrt \o 07:09
cognominal brrt o/ 07:11
brrt good.. monday, i guess :-)
cognominal m: my token ws { \h* }; say qq|a\n| ~~ m:s/ a $ /; 07:12
｢a
camelia rakudo-moar 2e612a: OUTPUT«｢a␤｣␤»
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cognominal m: my token ws { \h* }; say qq|a\n| ~~ m:s/ a \n /; 07:12
camelia rakudo-moar 2e612a: OUTPUT«False␤»
cognominal I wonder why the second does not match 07:13
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moritz cognominal: because the whitespace before the \n in the regex already slurped up the newline in the string 07:14
TEttinger m: my token ws { \h* }; say qq|a\n| ~~ m:s/ a\n /;
camelia rakudo-moar 2e612a: OUTPUT«｢a␤｣␤»
moritz wonders if the lexical ws is picked up 07:15
ShimmerFairy m: my token ws { <digit>* }; say qq|a3| ~~ m:s/a /; say qq|a3| ~~ m:s/a<digit>/
camelia rakudo-moar 2e612a: OUTPUT«False␤｢a3｣␤ digit => ｢3｣␤»
ShimmerFairy m: my token ws { <digit>* }; say qq|a3| ~~ m:s/a /; say qq|a3| ~~ m:s/a<ws>/
camelia rakudo-moar 2e612a: OUTPUT«False␤｢a3｣␤ ws => ｢3｣␤ digit => ｢3｣␤»
ShimmerFairy ^ lexical ws is not being picked up by :s whitespace
moritz m: grammar A { token ws { \h* }; token TOP { a \n } }; say A.parse("a\n")
camelia rakudo-moar 2e612a: OUTPUT«｢a␤｣␤»
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moritz cognominal: ^^ works fine inside a grammar 07:16
cognominal ShimmerFairy diagnostic seems accurate. 07:17
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masak good morning, #perl6! 07:18
cognominal I waited masak to wake up to file the bug :)
moritz isn't sure that's a bug
moritz isn't sure it's not a bug either 07:19
ShimmerFairy on the one hand, it does feel a bit inconsistent with how it works in grammars, on the other hand it feels like this is the kind of thing where you should be using grammars already. 07:20
I'm not sure if non-grammar regex/token/rule declarations should "attach" to whatever implicit grammar regexes pull from when not in grammars, overriding declarations and such. 07:23
cognominal github.com/perl6/specs/blame/maste...x.pod#L342
masak I'm too drowsy to backlog :) I'll leave that for later. 07:24
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cognominal the given examples use m:s// so they are not grammars 07:25
could we blame the greeks for that too? 07:26
ShimmerFairy Said examples show how to _use_ sigspace, but I don't see any explicit example showing how to _change_ sigspace's behavior. 07:27
DrForr Heh. I just fixed handling of RE modifiers in Perl-Mogrify last night. (with the exception of /x :) ) 07:29
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masak does Rakudo have something like Perl 5's `readlink`? 07:42
moritz masak: resolve, I think 07:43
IO::Path.resolve
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moritz m: say '/usr/bin/editor'.IO.resolve 07:44
camelia rakudo-moar 2e612a: OUTPUT«"/usr/bin/editor".IO␤»
masak oh, nice. 07:46
japhb++ # implementation
moritz $ ./perl6-m -e ' say "/usr/bin/editor".IO.resolve'
"/usr/bin/vim.gtk".IO
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[TuxCM] Inline::Perl5 broken: Merging GLOBAL symbols failed: duplicate definition of symbol HLL 08:04
DrForr Just as an aside I had good luck sending him a github issue as well :) 08:05
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[TuxCM] test 50000 46.251 46.162 08:47
test-t 50000 46.427 46.337
there has been time that it was 36!
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kanl m: my @a = 1 .. 3; my @b = < a b c >; my @c = @a Z @b; for @c -> $a, $b { $a.say; $b.say; }; for @a Z @b -> $a, $b { $a.say; $b.say; } 09:22
camelia rakudo-moar 2e612a: OUTPUT«1␤a␤2␤b␤3␤c␤1 a␤2 b␤Too few positionals passed; expected 2 arguments but got 1␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/TW7_7hQB4q:1␤␤»
kanl m: my @a = 1 .. 2; my @b = < a b >; my @c = @a Z @b; for @c -> $a, $b { $a.say; $b.say; }; for @a Z @b -> $a, $b { $a.say; $b.say; }
camelia rakudo-moar 2e612a: OUTPUT«1␤a␤2␤b␤1 a␤2 b␤»
kanl so Z seems to be buggy with odd sized lists 09:23
masak nope. 09:24
kanl masak: care to elaborate on that "nope"? :) 09:25
vendethiel what's buggy here?
kanl am i misunderstanding the usage of Z then? 09:26
vendethiel flattening, I think
m: my @a = 1 .. 3; my @b = < a b c >; for @a Z @b -> ($a, $b) { $a.say; $b.say; }
camelia rakudo-moar 2e612a: OUTPUT«1␤a␤2␤b␤3␤c␤»
vendethiel kanl: for @a Z @b -> $a, $b {} will have $a = @a[0], @b[0] 09:27
and $b be @a[1], @b[1] (<- this comma is the lsit one)
kanl vendethiel: ic. so @c = @a Z @b flattened? 09:28
vendethiel kanl: yes, list assignment flattens :) 09:29
kanl got it, thanks!
ShimmerFairy But if list assignment flattens, then how come: 09:30
m: my @a = [0,1], [2,3]; my @b = @a[0]; say @b.perl;
camelia rakudo-moar 2e612a: OUTPUT«[[0, 1]]<>␤»
vendethiel ShimmerFairy: [] is an itemized list (currently) 09:31
GLR will (most probably) change this
ShimmerFairy That is the first time I have ever heard of [] being that. 09:32
vendethiel m: for 1, [2, 3, 4], (5, 6) -> $a { say "hey $a" };
camelia rakudo-moar 2e612a: OUTPUT«hey 1␤hey 2 3 4␤hey 5 6␤»
vendethiel m: my @a = 1, [2, 3, 4], (5, 6); for @a -> $a { say "hey $a" }; 09:33
camelia rakudo-moar 2e612a: OUTPUT«hey 1␤hey 2 3 4␤hey 5␤hey 6␤»
kanl so then when is GLR happening? wouldn't it break tons of existing code?
vendethiel it probably will, yes 09:34
ShimmerFairy I haven't seen an explicit description of GLR yet, but I'm _hoping_ it'll make lists sane in Perl 6.
vendethiel much the same
there's one draft, though
DrForr And just a few months before release :) 09:35
vendethiel ShimmerFairy: github.com/perl6/specs/blob/master...-draft.pod
DrForr: I'm ready to trade a bit of my time to fix my code for sanity
DrForr Oh, I am too, it's just the whole "just before release" bit. 09:36
ShimmerFairy Well, I can't say I've kept quiet about how dumb lists can be in Perl 6 over the years :P 09:37
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DrForr Just stability issues, and worried that it's going to go in just before YAPC::EU and potentially break demo code when we should be touting successes :) 09:39
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kanl wouldn't it be nice to be able to @a Z -> [ $a, $b ] { } @b, directly? 10:21
otherwise have to overload an operator 10:22
or, -> $a, $b {}, post GLR 10:23
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dalek kudo/nom: 6967186 | (Nick Logan)++ | .travis.yml:
non-legacy travis-ci config

buildtime--		 10:36
kudo/nom: 533d1a9 | lizmat++ | .travis.yml:
Merge pull request #469 from ugexe/travis-nolegacy

non-legacy travis-ci config
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kanl m: my %h = a => 1; %h.push: a => 1; %h.say; 10:47
camelia rakudo-moar 2e612a: OUTPUT«a => 1␤»
kanl doc.perl6.org/routine/push 10:48
my %h = a => 1; %h.push: b => 1; %h.say; 10:49
m: my %h = a => 1; %h.push: b => 1; %h.say;
camelia rakudo-moar 2e612a: OUTPUT«a => 1␤»
kanl so .push on hash no longer autovivify either? 10:50
moritz m: my %h = a => 1; %h.push: (b => 1); %h.say;
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«a => 1, b => 1␤»
moritz kanl: it's the named vs. positional argument thingy again 10:51
ShimmerFairy m: my $a = a => 1; my %h = $a; say %h.perl; %h.push($a); say %h.perl
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«{:a(1)}<>␤{:a([1, 1])}<>␤»
ShimmerFairy That example in the docs assumes that implicit *%_ doesn't exist (and it shouldn't)
kanl moritz: got it. thanks! i seem to keep falling over the same spot :p 10:53
nine [TuxCM]: cannot reproduce an Inline::Perl5 failure here 10:55
[TuxCM] will retry 10:58
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kanl m: my @a = < a b c >; my %h = a => 1; @a.map: { %h.push: $_ => 1 }; %h.say; 11:01
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«a => 1 1, b => 1, c => 1␤»
kanl so in $_ is not treated as named in this case? 11:02
lizmat m: my @a = < a b c >; my %h = a => 1; @a.map: { %h.push: $_ => 1 }; %h.perl.say 11:03
yoleaux 12 Jul 2015 22:49Z <japhb> lizmat: I was referring to the fact that perl6's command line options don't seem to affect the REPL (or at least, not all of them). In my particular class, -I wasn't affecting @*INC in the REPL, and ugexe seemed to indicate --ll-exception was problematic as well.
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«{:a([1, 1]), :b(1), :c(1)}<>␤»
lizmat kanl: I'm not sure what you expected? Seems to work as planned to me
kanl further back, my %h = a => 1; %h.push: b => 1; %h.say; 11:04
[TuxCM] nine, still got it
ShimmerFairy The question is why %thing.push(a => 1) goes to *%_ but %thing($_ => 1) doesn't.
[TuxCM] prepares gist (waiting for test to finish) 11:05
nine [TuxCM]: I do see random test failures running make test in a loop. But they're very infrequent :/ And they are all of the "No subtests run" kind 11:07
kanl lizmat: things like this confuse a newbie like me. because it _seems_ to be inconsistent, when actually there are actually sound reasons behind the seemingly inconsistency.
[TuxCM] but you run locally, not from an installed Inline::Perl5
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lizmat kanl: yeah, I see what you mean, but I'm on record not to rant about that anymore 11:08
kanl i'll shut up :)
ShimmerFairy would argue the extent to which implicit *%_ is a sound reason :P 11:09
[TuxCM] gist.github.com/Tux/2a769f16bd5505be78b6
lizmat kanl: please don't 11:10
you strengthen my point
it's just that if you feel as strongly about it as I do, you should let yourself be heard 11:11
nine I see the same errors locally and with the installed Inline::Perl5. But not your's. Though considering the randomness of my failures, it looks like some memory corruption. Like the heisenbug I tracked a couple of months ago that turned out to be a GC bug in NativeCall
ShimmerFairy lizmat: oh, are you talking about that time you argued against the conflation of pairs and named parameters? If so, this is definitely a case where I'm left wondering why it's like this. 11:12
lizmat there's nothing more *I* can say about it
ShimmerFairy: indeed
ShimmerFairy m: sub foo(:$bar) { say $bar }; my $baz = "bar"; foo(bar => "Hello!"); foo($baz => "World!") 11:13
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«Hello!␤Too many positionals passed; expected 0 arguments but got 1␤ in sub foo at /tmp/oFlm1yBicd:1␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/oFlm1yBicd:1␤␤»
ShimmerFairy I've never encountered this before, but it feels very, very wrong. 11:14
FROGGS jnthn: ping 11:15
kanl lizmat: from a user adoption pov, these so-called inconsistencies may be offputting to people and turn some of them away, just saying. but speaking for myself, i'm not that easily frustrated/discouraged :)
ShimmerFairy Those two calls should definitely be consistent, though how so is another point :)
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FROGGS jnthn: what does a for loop return in statement level? this here? github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/...er.pm#L201 11:16
lizmat kanl ShimmerFairy : teaching and user adoption are the most important reasons to separate :a(42) and a => 42 in meaning 11:17
especially since you cannot use a => 42 as an adverb in @a[42]:exists and the like 11:18
kanl *nod*
lizmat so newbies are first taught to use :a(42) notation for slices and the like
and then learn they can also use a => 42 for custom code to indicate a named parameter 11:19
but not for slices
ShimmerFairy lizmat: I'm on board with not mixing pairs and named params. I've actually thought about it before, but never complained about it much (if at all). They're such different things, I wonder why they deserve to share syntax, and in a not-always-clear fashion to boot.
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kanl as a user with some p5 experience, i'd have to agree with ShimmerFairy on that 11:20
ShimmerFairy lizmat: And I mentioned a few days ago how my mind sees a => 42 as a Pair-ish thing, and :a(42) as a named param-ish thing. I'm not too likely to write foo(a => 42) , and I definitely wouldn't write %h = :a(42) 11:21
kanl old p5 habbits can be quite harmful
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tadzik 25 years from now we'll still be afraid to use $a and $b so we don't break sort 11:25
it'll be like with goto. "Ancients told us to never use goto!" "But it was completely different back then!" "LOL, doesn't matter, stay away from it anyway!" 11:26
(yes, I'm pretty sure prefix:<LOL> will still be around in 25 years)
(maybe for the same reason)
ShimmerFairy What's this about breaking sort?
lizmat $a and $b have a special meaning in P5 wrt to sort 11:31
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ShimmerFairy Ah, that explains why I don't know about it :) 11:31
lizmat in p5 one can say sort @a, { $a cmp $b } where $a and $b would be the two parameters to the code block 11:32
similar to P6's { $^a cmp $^b }
except in P5 they are fixed to the names "$a" and "$b" 11:33
hence you can use $a and $b anywhere in P5 code without defining them, even with "use strict"
so they're really pretty magical
in P5
itz__ is compiling to mbc on OS X several times slower than a couple of days ago or is it me? 11:35
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lizmat itz: not sure, could be 11:36
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itz I'll nuke .rakudobrew just in case 11:37
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itz hmm it seems to affect certain modules only 12:10
jnthn afternoon, #perl6 12:17
yoleaux 11 Jul 2015 21:02Z <japhb> jnthn: What are your thoughts on irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-07-11#i_10881267 and irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-07-11#i_10881334 ? Having no good resolution kinda gets in the way of a nice refactoring (for now, I'm copying the required private methods into each role that would want to consume them, and then changing the names to not collide between the roles which is ... blech.)
12 Jul 2015 20:46Z <FROGGS> jnthn: I think MVMExceptionBody needs an MVMObject *label, so the payload can be used for: LABEL.leave(42)
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jnthn .tell japhb I think the one at irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-07-11#i_10881271 should indeed DWYM; feel free to file a ticket on that 12:19
yoleaux jnthn: I'll pass your message to japhb.
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lizmat tries to catch some more sleep 12:25
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arnsholt jnthn: How accessible is the multi-dim stuff from Perl 6 currently? I've got an idea which might be a good fit for giving it a real-worldish spin 12:28
timotimo o/
jnthn arnsholt: It ain't yet, but I intend for it to be later this week.
arnsholt Spiffy! I'll keep an eye out for it =) 12:29
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RabidGravy remember kids, doing "sub trait_mod:<is> .... " without a multi will get you really confused ... 12:38
well the symptons are somewhat confusing to me anyway
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FROGGS $ perl6 -e 'say (FOO: for ^3 { FOO.leave(123); say "alive" }); say "ho!"' 12:43
123
ho!
masak: ^^
dunno how sane my implementation is though
jnthn: ^^
masak woo! \o/ 12:44
FROGGS, you nice person you!
FROGGS :D
jnthn FROGGS++ 12:45
FROGGS I'll push my stuff in a minute
jnthn Would be interested to see that stuf,f yes
*stuff
FROGGS jnthn: please review then :o)
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dalek p/leave: 10af152 | FROGGS++ | src/vm/moar/QAST/QASTOperationsMAST.nqp:
map {get,set}label, and handle CONTROL_RETURN + label
 13:12
masak looks, too
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masak so the handler name is called RETURN on the nqp level? even though it's a leave? 13:14
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andreoss with token { <line> ** 9 } what separator is assumed? 13:18
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dalek kudo/leave: 6744251 | FROGGS++ | src/core/ (2 files):
and handle CONTROL_RETURN + label in MapIter
 13:20
FROGGS masak / jnthn: I pushed all the things
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FROGGS masak: aye, CONTROL_RETURN already existed 13:21
andreoss: none
masak FROGGS: here my ignorance of the specifics is showing, but... 13:23
FROGGS masak: I just can tell that it works for the one-liner I posted, I'm not sure the implementation is sensible
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masak FROGGS: ...it seems to me that a `return` and a `leave` might take you to different locations. how does that square with using CONTROL_RETURN for both? 13:23
oha isn't LEAVE a phaser executed before exiting? like a guard? why for 1..3 { FOO.leave(); say "alive" } doesn't print "alive" 3 times? 13:24
FROGGS return does not use CONTROL_RETURN AFAICS
it invokes a lexical &RETURN or so
oha is leave in this context different than the phaser
shouldn't be .last() ? 13:25
masak FROGGS: maybe make sure that the lexical &RETURN doesn't use CONTROL_RETURN...?
m: sub foo { sub return(|c) { say "nuh-uh!" }; return 42; say "alive" }; foo
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«nuh-uh!␤alive␤»
jnthn I don't think it uses it at the moment, but it maybe should eventually 13:26
dalek ast: 570c8cc | (Steve Mynott)++ | S32-io/spurt.t:
fix spurt on file handle deprecation
jnthn The history on this is that Parrot never got lexical exception handler lookup
But it had a different, and rather convenient, way to implement it
masak if there is a CONTROL_RETURN, but only &leave uses it, maybe rename it CONTROL_LEAVE? :P 13:27
jnthn And we've kinda carried that forward
Path of least resistance and all that
andreoss FROGGS: why does it work with \n and whitespaces between <line>?
FROGGS andreoss: maybe your token/rule line allows it?
andreoss i specified nothing about whitespaces 13:28
FROGGS andreoss: is line a rul?
andreoss some default rule is applied
FROGGS rule*
or is it a token? 13:29
andreoss rule
FROGGS see
andreoss with token it's actually the same
FROGGS a rule allows arbitrary whitespace at the end
hmm, should not be
13:31 colomon joined
andreoss sorry, i've been mistaken and changed rule to token only for TOP 13:32
13:36 andreoss left
dalek p: cd7a532 | jnthn++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/sixmodel/reprs/MultiDimArray (3 files):
Get multi-dim object arrays working on JVM.
 13:41
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jaffa4 hi 13:43
How would you copy a hash?
PerlJam jaffa4: my %hash = %other-hash; 13:44
jaffa4 as a reference?
and make it a reference?
my $h = %hash;
El_Che jercos: a reference is not a copy, but an alias (changes to the "copy" will change the original) 13:45
jaffa4 I would ike to have reference to a copy 13:46
geekosaur what
why do you need a reference? for the most part references are a perl5-ism 13:47
jaffa4 my %h2 = %h; my $r = %h2;
Is there an easier way?
geekosaur things you shouldn't need to do don;t generally come with easier ways 13:48
jnthn $(my % = %h) probably works
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El_Che (lol this is the #perl6 tab, I thought I was in #perl) 13:49
jnthn Well, but {%h} does copy too :)
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jnthn so my $r = {%h} or so 13:49
nine m: my %a = a => 1, b => 2; my $b = $(my % = %a); $b<b> = 1; say %a.perl; say $b.perl; 13:51
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«{:a(1), :b(2)}<>␤{:a(1), :b(1)}␤»
13:51 khw joined
[Coke] Note: the TPF grants committee is looking for grants to fund. Historically we haven't gotten many perl 6 grant requests. If someone has a good idea for a grant, don't let the fact that it's six instead of five stop you. 13:51
jaffa4 like what? 13:52
Coke
Coke, what is the url? 13:54
PerlJam jaffa4: news.perlfoundation.org/2015/07/cal...uly-1.html 13:55
jaffa4 jnthn: I getr postcircumfix:<{ }> not defined for type Bloc
jnthn: thanks for the other version, that works 13:59
christovchristov hey Im consideirng using perl for a webspider but concerned about performance vs using php.. does anyone have any performance info where I can read more?
PerlJam christovchristov: sounds like you want #perl rather than #perl6 14:00
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christovchristov ah. my bad. Ofcourse it was a more generic question :) cheers 14:01
PerlJam christovchristov: no worries
christovchristov: though, if I were you, I would do some profiling myself :) 14:02
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tadzik I'm continually surprised that Perl is one of the very few languages apparently that get stuff like gist.github.com/tadzik/80987d58011eeff3d96f right 14:09
TIL that C# and Go don't either
moritz christovchristov: in general, web spidering is IO (network) limited, not performance limit
tadzik I thought only Python is like that
moritz christovchristov: so you don't have to worry much about the performance of the implementation language
PerlJam moritz: #perl is enthusiastically telling him that. :) 14:10
moritz ok :-)
jnthn A language that lets you manage multiple concurrent requests easily is worth having for it, though :)
nine Which I guess would be pretty much any language except PHP
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dalek p: 11dd464 | jnthn++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/sixmodel/reprs/MultiDimArray (10 files):
Support native/packed multi-dim arrays on JVM.
 14:15
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masak nine: but PHP has other nice/redeeming features, such as... ah... 14:21
...
arnsholt It's not BrainFuck, I guess? 14:24
jaffa4 I found some weird behaviour concerning and and && see codepaste.net/yier8s 14:25
Could anyone explain that?
nine But BrainFuck should be easily compilable to a very fast binary, shouldn't it?
arnsholt Not necessarily 14:26
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arnsholt It can actually be harder to optimise very low-level stuff 14:27
masak jaffa4: before I opened that link, I went "oh, I bet jaffa4 got precedence wrong"
jaffa4: I was right :D
DrForr jaffa4: && and 'and' have differing precedence.
masak m: say True and False
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«True␤»
masak m: say (True and False)
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«False␤»
masak jaffa4: ^
jaffa4: if you don't understand precedence, and the differing precedence between `&&` and `and`, I would heartily recommend not using `and` 14:28
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masak jaffa4: it *has* a good use, but people who don't understand its precedence won't use it right. 14:28
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jaffa4 masak: in the example, && gave bad result and, AND gave good one 14:29
DrForr jaffa4: && is binding tighter than you expected.
jaffa4 a change from Perl 5? 14:30
DrForr They're different languages, yes.
dalek p: 0da71d8 | jnthn++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/sixmodel/reprs/MultiDimArrayInstanceBase.java:
Good errors for size-changing ops.
 14:31
p: 0743f03 | jnthn++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/sixmodel/reprs/MultiDimArrayInstanceBase.java:
Do rest of positional API in MultiDimArray on JVM.
jnthn Phew, 140 out of 188 tests. :)
jaffa4 masak: I assumed it stayed the same for Perl6, some things did not change 14:32
tadzik I think it's the same as in Perl 5, this particular thing
vendethiel tadzik: you'll be pleased to know C#5 fixes that :)
tadzik vendethiel: oh, I am :)
vendethiel: I'
vendethiel: I'm also sad to realize that Unity is not likely to adopt it any time soon :P
vendethiel tadzik: Unity uses a butchered version of C# already :) 14:33
tadzik yeah, I noticed :P
on ancient mono
*shudder*
vendethiel
.oO( "let's remove access modifiers, they look too confusing" )
RabidGravy I thought that 'and' was lower precedence than '&&' in perl 5 too
tadzik access modifiers?
masak jaffa4: it did stay the same. 14:34
jaffa4: Perl 5 has exactly the same distinction between `&&` and `and`. I suggest you learn it.
skids jnthn++ cruising along on native multidim... guess I'd better dust off the Keccak specs.
masak jaffa4: or, if you don't feel like learning it (which is fine), I suggest only using `&&`.
vendethiel tadzik: "public void X()" <- only "void X()" works in unity#
hoelzro o/ #perl6 14:35
lucasb Good monday to everyone. I can use .subst directly, but sometimes I felt like wanting to use s/// with .subst semantics, not .subst-mutate. Do you think there is room for an adverb that does that, just like P5's s///r ? (I know that :r is already taken for something else)
vendethiel lucasb: I asked about the same some time ago :P 14:36
tadzik vendethiel: nah, both work
skids Wasn't that S///?
jaffa4 masak: I used &&, that did not seem to work
vendethiel tadzik: really? there's something they changed wrt that, but I can't remember right now :). I only used unity for 2 weeks
tadzik I mean, I even think that the latter might not, if you expect it to be public
vendethiel: certain magic methods do that, yeah :D 14:37
like void Awake(), void Update() etc
those Unity fetches via reflection and stuff
jaffa4 masak: as in Perl 5
ShimmerFairy jaffa4: As I understand the code, you need parens around defined (stuff) , so (defined (stuff)) && morestuff
tadzik actually, not sure if they break if you make them public explicitely, but knowing Unity, they might :P
vendethiel tadzik: no, I was right. it doesn't work like that in c#.
tadzik: in unity#, no access modifier = public, not in c# 14:38
tadzik oh
huh
class attributes for example don't show up in the editor if they're not public
lucasb vendethiel: I must read the logs more often. :) What was the answer when you asked about this?
14:38 tinyblak left
tadzik I'd be surprised if it recognized private methods as public and callable then 14:38
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masak jaffa4: you're not 100% successful in providing golfed examples. this makes it harder to help you. 14:39
jaffa4: it also makes it harder for *you* to see what the problem is with your code, since it's still tangled with all these inessentials. 14:40
jaffa4: if you put whitespace between `defined` and the `(...)` thing, that means something different than `defined(...)`
jaffa4: *that* is the difference between Perl 5 and Perl 6 that's tripping you up.
lucasb skids: I tried S///, but I don't understand how it works
masak jaffa4: thanks to ShimmerFairy for putting me on the right track. I didn't see that before. 14:41
lucasb skids: I didn't know it existed :)
vendethiel tadzik: not sure. but all the methods you define for unity are declared with "public"
aren't*
masak m: my $a = True; my $b; say defined $a && $b; say defined($a) && $b # jaffa4: see the difference? 14:42
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«False␤(Any)␤»
dalek p: 9ccd292 | jnthn++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/sixmodel/reprs/MultiDimArrayInstance (11 files):
Support cloning multi-dim arrays on JVM.
masak m: my $a = True; my $b = 4; say defined $a && $b; say defined($a) && $b
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«True␤4␤»
jercos El_Che: good to know :p 14:43
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jaffa4 masak: here is the more complete example codepaste.net/gw4fh1 14:45
masak *sigh* :)
jaffa4: hold on, going to repeat the explanation I wrote to you above. 14:46
ohb tadzik, (about closures) i believe in java it will complain that you need to make it final (to avoid differentiating between shallow and deep binding) alghouth they are more anon-classes that could be used as closures
masak jaffa4: if you put whitespace between `defined` and the `(...)` thing, that means something different than `defined(...)`
jaffa4: *that* is the difference between Perl 5 and Perl 6 that's tripping you up.
skids m: my $f = "aaa"; my $g = $f ~~ S/a/b/; $f.say; $g.say # lucasb. It's in release notes but apparently broken?
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«aaa␤False␤»
14:47 tinyblak joined
jaffa4 masak: I see... so it is not about precedence 14:47
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jaffa4 I think many will trip after me 14:47
masak in a way it is
jaffa4: so, in essence, you're confused by two things: (a) different precedence between `&&` and `and`, and (b) the fact that function calls become listops if they have whitespace after them
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masak jaffa4: learn the rules of the language. don't just say "I think many will trip after me" 14:48
jaffa4: Perl 6 is not a random set of rules. it's a well-thought-out set of rules. learn them.
jaffa4 I know many , even this one, I just tend to think in Perl5 14:49
masak jaffa4: there are good reasons behind this change of parsing.
jaffa4 I used Perl5 for 13 years
masak jaffa4: if you don't learn the new behavior, you will keep being surprised and your programs will have bugs.
lucasb skids: Thanks! I'm only getting booleans as return too, that's why I didn't understand.
masak jaffa4: to be on the safe side, always write `foo()`, not `foo ()` 14:50
jaffa4: but better than that is learning the rules.
jaffa4 What does define () do?
masak m: sub foo(|c) { say "{c.elems} arguments passed" }; foo(); foo () 14:51
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«0 arguments passed␤1 arguments passed␤»
masak jaffa4: see the above?
jaffa4: does it explain things?
jaffa4 m: sub foo(|c) { say "{c.elems} arguments passed" }; foo(); foo (),() 14:53
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«0 arguments passed␤2 arguments passed␤»
masak right.
in `foo()`, the parentheses are just there for grouping the arguments.
in `foo ()`, the parentheses are an argument (an empty list) 14:54
jaffa4 ok 14:55
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ShimmerFairy m: sub foo(|c) { say "{c.elems} argument{"s" if c.elems - 1} passed: {c.perl}" }; foo(); foo (); foo (), (); # just showing off what c gets 14:55
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«0 arguments passed: \()␤1 argument passed: \(())␤2 arguments passed: \((), ())␤»
14:55 khw left
masak jaffa4: the second for is called a "listop". it exists in Perl 5 too, like `print 1, 2, 3;` 14:55
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masak jaffa4: the difference is that if you do `print (1, 2, 3)` in Perl 5, the parens just become a delimiter, like `print(1, 2, 3)` 14:56
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dalek p: 3f9c111 | jnthn++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/runtime/Ops.java:
Implement special 2D/3D ops on JVM.
 14:56
masak jaffa4: not so in Perl 6. if you put in the whitespace in Perl 6, the parens always mean "list"
jaffa4: the rule is much more consistent in Perl 6, and avoids certain kinds of Perl 5 mistakes, like `print ($a + $b ) * $c;` 14:57
$ perl -Mstrict -wE'my ($a, $b, $c) = (1, 1, 100); say ($a + $b) * $c' 14:58
say (...) interpreted as function at -e line 1.
Useless use of multiplication (*) in void context at -e line 1.
2
$ perl6 -e'my ($a, $b, $c) = (1, 1, 100); say ($a + $b) * $c'
200
m: my ($a, $b, $c) = 1, 1, 100; say ($a + $b) * $c # without the superstitious parentheses this time ;) 14:59
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«200␤»
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lucasb I found about S/// :) It was mentioned in the changelog for June, but not in the release announcement, maybe because it wasn't finished. It only works without the "~~" 15:32
m: $_ = 'abc'; say S/a/x/; .say 15:33
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«xbc␤abc␤»
lucasb m: $_ = 'abc'; say $_ ~~ S/a/x/; .say
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«False␤abc␤»
TimToady m: say S/a/x/ given 'abc' 15:36
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«xbc␤»
TimToady there's one workaround
not sure it's where we want to end up though
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itz m: $*ARGFILES=open "/etc/issue"; say slurp(); 15:38
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«open is disallowed in restricted setting␤ in sub restricted at src/RESTRICTED.setting:1␤ in sub open at src/RESTRICTED.setting:9␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/WcTziM8_NQ:1␤␤»
15:39 dg joined
itz damm :) 15:39
lucasb TimToady: cool :)
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itz anyway of testing a filehandle? 15:39
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PerlJam itz: testing it for what? 15:40
itz well I wanted to show the difference between
$*ARGFILES=open "/etc/issue"; say slurp();
$*ARGFILES=open "/etc/issue"; say slurp-rest();
I wonder if the second form should work and replace the first? 15:41
instead of having to use $*ARGFILES=open "/etc/issue"; say $*ARGFILES.slurp-rest(); 15:42
FROGGS jnthn: I have the suspicion that p6routinereturn is not quite what I want for Block.leave :o) 15:46
PerlJam itz: I'm not even sure why we have slurp and slurp-rest. I would have just used slurp for both of those things. 15:48
lucasb PerlJam: +1 :)
itz slurp is deprecated on a file handle
japhb .tell jnthn Great, glad it makes sense to you too; I filed RT #125606 for the "Role requiring private method" issue.
yoleaux 12:19Z <jnthn> japhb: I think the one at irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-07-11#i_10881271 should indeed DWYM; feel free to file a ticket on that
japhb: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
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lucasb To me, .slurp-rest feels like: Why the "rest"? I just opened the filehandle. Has anybody read a little of it before me? 15:49
TimToady you could've
but the main reason is to distinguish from .slurp, which implies a close 15:50
.slurp-rest doesn't
PerlJam oh, and slurp-rest doesn't close?
ShimmerFairy I personally never understood (or even heard) the rationale for .slurp-rest
TimToady hard to understand if you haven't heard it :) 15:51
lucasb I understand, but to me I don't see anything wrong with IO::Path.slurp *closing* and IO::Handle *don't closing* the handle.
TimToady it was confusing people
lucasb That's two different classes; they do different things with the messages they receive
itz should slurp-rest() behave on $*ARGFILES as slurp() did? 15:52
ShimmerFairy TimToady: it did put a hamper in me doing open("file").slurp , out of an interest in being explicit about the file opening. I don't know why, but I don't like slurp("file") as much.
itz actually it doesn't close it so not I guess (?) 15:53
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[Coke] wonders if we'll ever be able to do strict exception handling like in Java. 15:55
TimToady has heard very few people claim that was a desirable feature 15:56
[Coke] was just burned by this in another language-on-top-of-jvm, where we had a bit of code that threw an exception outside of any try/catch handlers, and it blew up in prod about 2 years after it was deployed. (whereas in java, it wouldn't even have compiled)
TimToady: well, +1 from me, fwiw. :) 15:57
ShimmerFairy When I was learning Java for a while, it was certainly interesting. But I didn't appreciate being forced to use try { } catch blocks (since I don't like how it makes you add another level of indentation to the happy path).
However, the try-with-resources (or whatever it's termed) thing was a nice touch :)
[Coke] I also find the boilerplate it demands painful in java sometimes. nice to have the suspenders if you want them, though. 15:58
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ShimmerFairy I also find it painful in C++, which is why I don't use exceptions in C++ as much as I would otherwise like. (And it's why I appreciate Perl 6's CATCH { } blocks and how they don't need a try part ☺) 15:59
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TimToady bows 16:00
japhb Too bad we don't have someone present who can tap you on the shoulder with a sword and bestow a knighthood. 16:01
SerTimToady
16:01 JimmyZ_ left
itz I think the Ser prefix lessens life expectancy (at least on TV) 16:02
japhb On reflection I wonder if that ceremony was a reminder that the regent could be choosing to remove the head, rather than merely tap them on the shoulder.
TimToady well, one gets tapped for other duties, which then shortens your life span :) 16:03
japhb Heh
16:03 atroxaper left
TimToady apologizes for mixing one/you 16:03
geekosaur japhb, more or less. (more accurately, that accepting the knighthood specifically puts you in a position where the regent can remove your head) 16:04
TimToady rather than hanging, I suppose...
japhb geekosaur: Ah, interesting. 16:05
PerlJam imagines the french had a hard time knighting people with a guillotine
japhb That shoulder tap had a hell of a bite. 16:06
jaffa4 m: say [1]==[2]; 16:07
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«True␤»
jaffa4 m: say [1]==[2,3]; 16:08
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«False␤»
jaffa4 m: say (1)==(2,3);
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«False␤»
geekosaur mm, is that numifying to the length?
japhb geekosaur: I'm betting yes.
ShimmerFairy yep, that's what == does
jaffa4 How can I make full comparison for content as well? 16:09
TimToady eqv
jaffa4 m: say [1] eqv [2];
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«False␤»
jaffa4 m: say [1] eqv [1];
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«True␤»
jaffa4 m: say (1) eqv (1);
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«True␤»
jaffa4 m: say (1) eqv (2);
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«False␤»
jaffa4 m: say (1,2) eqv (1,2); 16:10
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«True␤»
ShimmerFairy That reminds me, it'd be nice if [[1,2]] ~~ [[1,2]] DWIMmed 16:11
m: say [[1, 2]] ~~ [[1, 2]]
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«False␤»
ShimmerFairy (at least 'eqv' works in that case)
TimToady m: say (1,2) === (1,2)
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«True␤»
TimToady m: say [1,2] === [1,2]
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«False␤»
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dalek ast: db20bc7 | (Steve Mynott)++ | S32-io/slurp.t:
partially fix deprecation
 16:12
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jaffa4 What is ("2", 4, 3, "1").list and ("2", 4, 3, "1")? 16:20
.perl gives both
What is the difference?
TimToady that's the List/Parcel distinction that may or may not go away with the GLR 16:22
Parcel is basically a tuple type, immutable if its parts are immutable 16:23
lists are a more like arrays, but without enforced containers on each element
but the main difference is lists are conceptually lazy, while parcels are not 16:24
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jaffa4 How can I convert a parcel to a list? 16:25
TimToady (a parcel may contain a lazy list, but that's different)
ShimmerFairy m: say ("2", 4, 3, "1").WHAT; say ("2", 4, 3, "1").list.WHAT
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«(Parcel)␤(List)␤»
jaffa4 ok 16:26
TimToady parcels are primarily for argument lists, which need to evaluate all the arguments at the top level before doing the call
but some of those evaluated arguments can be lazy
jaffa4 I had something like this map {}, @b eqv (1,2,3,4)...... 16:27
TimToady (if we didn't evaluate all the arguments, we couldn't do multiple dispatch on the actual type)
jaffa4 and it did not work
TimToady yeah, eqv requires two arguments of identical type
I think ~~ would've worked there 16:28
m: say map { $_ }, 1,2,3,4 ~~ (1,2,3,4) 16:29
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«1 2 3 False␤»
TimToady oops
m: say (map { $_ }, 1,2,3,4) ~~ (1,2,3,4)
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«True␤»
TimToady m: say (map { $_ }, 1,2,3,4) eqv (1,2,3,4).list
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«True␤»
TimToady but yeah, that one is a bit of a WAT
jaffa4 and I can see it can be array too 16:30
TimToady m: say [map { $_ }, 1,2,3,4] eqv [1,2,3,4]
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«True␤»
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TimToady but constructing two arrays is kinda wasted effort, if that's all you do with 'em 16:31
jaffa4 it printed Array.new("2", 4, 3, "1")
TimToady that looks like an old version
jaffa4 m: my @b = ("2",4,3,"1"); say @b.perl; 16:32
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«["2", 4, 3, "1"]<>␤»
TimToady that's what it's printed for a couple months now
and we're hoping to lose the <> soon
(more GLR adjustments) 16:33
b2gills kanl: (from backlog) this works: `m: my @a = 1,2; my @b = <a b>; @a Z[&(-> $a, $b { .say for $a, $b, '' })] @b`
m: my @a = 1,2; my @b = <a b>; @a Z[&(-> $a, $b { .say for $a, $b, '' })] @b
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«1␤a␤␤2␤b␤␤»
16:35 JimmyZ_ joined 16:36 JimmyZ__ left
b2gills The comments in this change: github.com/perl6/roast/commit/570c8cc952 don't represent the actual code, as the files aren't open 16:36
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jaffa4 WHere is the module list< 16:40
dha Not sure how up to date it is, but modules.perl6.org 16:44
tadzik as up to date as it gets 16:45
jaffa4 Where should I add a new entry to the module list?
tadzik fork and edit the list on github.com/perl6/ecosystem 16:46
dalek osystem/jaffa4-patch-1: 1451955 | jaffa4++ | META.list:
Update META.list

added Dependency-Sort		 16:48
16:57 abraxxa left 16:59 JimmyZ_ left 17:05 dakkar left
cognominal according to Antidote, adouber, the french for "to knight" comes from Frankish "to hit". Apparently used in English, when you want to unmess the chessboard www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?g...mp;kpage=5 17:09
geekosaur ...I dub thee... (aha!) 17:12
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RabidGravy I may need treatment, I appear to be using "my $foo = do given .... " an awful lot 17:19
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ugexe you and me both 17:19
flussence wasn't writing it "do given" supposed to be a temporary workaround? 17:20
jercos do given ye for all in some
FROGGS jnthn: how am I meant to return a value from a block (early)? 17:24
skids Will there be a difference, post-GLR, between how one would MMD multisigs with components like :($a) and :(*@s) when you do func() <== lazy-thing? i.e. will it always start the iterator to look at the first arguments, or is a feed a special case? 17:26
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jnthn FROGGS: Probably needs an nqp::leave op, which will emit the appropriate VM-level return_* instruction, if it's being done from within the block. 17:41
yoleaux 15:48Z <japhb> jnthn: Great, glad it makes sense to you too; I filed RT #125606 for the "Role requiring private method" issue.
moritz FROGGS: today I saw a car with license plate FR GS (plus some numbers) and immediatly thought of you :-) 17:44
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masak [Coke]: I think traits can get you pretty close to having checked exceptions in Perl 6. the one missing component is having a just-parsed Routine check itself whether it throws exceptions (say) doing a predefined role. 17:50
FROGGS moritz: I've got one with FR-O 665 at home :o)
masak [Coke]: that last feature (installing hooks on parsing certain code elements) is something I hope to add as part of the macro grant.
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moritz FROGGS: :-) 17:51
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dha So, in p6 pod, "|" is special inside X<> entries. What do you do if you need a literal "|" inside an X<>? 17:54
(and, although I don't see it documented "$!" inside an X<> seems to be problematic as well.
)
lucasb I like being able to use different syntax for creating the same kind of thing: -> $a,$b { $a+$b }, { $^a + $^b }, (* + *) 18:02
wrt to pairs vs. named parameters, I wouldn't make them different things, instead I would prefer if they were even more equal.
Maybe this wouldn't be technically possible, but in my messy world, I would have enjoyed if things were like these:
In sub f(:$a), f('a'=>1) and f($pair) would be a named parameters, since the signature clearly says it doesn't take positionals.
In sub f($x), f(a=>1) and f(:a(1)) would be a pair positional, since the signature clearly says it doesn't take named parameters.
Don't ask me about other edge cases, because I don't know :)
TimToady that would be fragile in the face of refactoring to multi, which happens a lot 18:03
and I don't think you're gonna get jnthn++ to rewrite the binder any time soon :) 18:04
masak we had an extensive discussion the other day. 18:05
I'll say again what I said then: I like the local optimum we're in, and I haven't seen an argument so far that makes me want to change things.
the whole thing *is* a bit of a waterbed bump issue. and we're not getting rid of the bump, we can only push it around. 18:06
18:06 Hor|zon left
masak in light of that, let's not. 18:06
lucasb Thanks TimToady++, masak++; I understand my opinion is a dream; just wanted to say it :)
18:06 kurahaupo left
masak lucasb: you can always have fun in slangs :) 18:07
TimToady to go with Tuxic, we also need Toxic, Texic, Taxic, and Tixic
lucasb
.oO( Masakix and Toadix too? )
 18:08
TimToady you've already got Toadix :) 18:09
lucasb yeah, P6 already is Toadix :)
ShimmerFairy masak: I don't see it as a waterbed issue; what problems would arise from making a => 42 always be a Pair and :a(42) always be a named parameter, and never the other way? ("Would break existing code" doesn't count :P) 18:14
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masak ShimmerFairy: a fair question. let me think about it a bit. 18:17
moritz it would bar :$a for Pair usage 18:19
FROGGS I guess that's nonsense? 18:20
~/dev/MoarVM$ perl6 -e 'use nqp; say (FOO: for ^3 { nqp::leave(123); say "alive" }); say "ho!"'
123 123 123
ho!
ShimmerFairy I've never seen that, actually. I can only recall seeing :$a in function calls and the like.
dha hm... that's unfortunate. 18:27
m: my $x = 54;printf "One less than %d is %d\n", $x, --$x;
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«One less than 53 is 53␤»
dha Possibly even more unfortunate: 18:28
m: my $x = 54;printf "one less than %d is %d\n", $x, $x--; 18:29
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«one less than 53 is 54␤»
TimToady so don't do that
mst dha: yeah, that's completely expected
ShimmerFairy I forget, isn't that kind of stuff traditionally the dreaded "undefined behavior" in C-land ?
mst I wrote an entire blog post about not doing that
dha The latter is expected? Ok...
mst well, more, 'weird stuff happening when you use --$thing and $thing in the same arglist is expected' 18:30
dha Yeah, ok, that I can accept.
ShimmerFairy (that is, doing stuff with a variable multiple times in an expression, when at one point in the expression you use one of the increment/decrement ops)
dha BUT THIS MAKES IMPLEMENTING 99 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL MORE ANNOYING.
Well, this seems to work better... 18:31
m: $x = 54;say "one less than $x is {--$x}" 18:32
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/GaKVqDlSjB␤Variable '$x' is not declared␤at /tmp/GaKVqDlSjB:1␤------> 3<BOL>7⏏5$x = 54;say "one less than $x is {--$x}"␤»
dha m: my $x = 54;say "one less than $x is {--$x}"
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«one less than 54 is 53␤»
dha ...but I'm not convinced it's reliable.
And I suspect I'm smart to be so unconvinced. 18:33
TimToady well, there's a statement sequence inside the block, so arguably there's a sequence point
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ShimmerFairy what about for 99...1 { say "One less than $x is {$x-1}" } ? 18:34
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dha So... that *would* be reliable? 18:34
TimToady functional programming without side effects? 18:35
masak m: my $x = 54;printf "one less than %d is %d\n", $x, $x--
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«one less than 53 is 54␤»
masak I'm with dha. that's a bug. in sprintf.
m: say $x, $x--
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/oxfqTHSEPc␤Variable '$x' is not declared␤at /tmp/oxfqTHSEPc:1␤------> 3say 7⏏5$x, $x--␤»
masak m: my $x = 54; say $x, $x-- 18:36
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«5354␤»
masak hm. or a bug elsewhere?
I've always thought of Perl 6 as having sequence points, and each argument being at least one sequence point, left-to-right.
dha Well, that definitely smells like a bug to me. Well beyond a result one might expect by altering a term within a statement.
TimToady you can't depend on the order of side effects like that
ShimmerFairy If C/C++ considers that kind of usage undefined behavior (wouldn't know offhand), I'm not prepared to call it a bug. I'm sure the ISO guys know what they're doing, most of the time :P 18:37
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dalek osystem: 1451955 | jaffa4++ | META.list:
Update META.list

added Dependency-Sort		 18:37
osystem: fd56d1b | (David Warring)++ | META.list:
Merge pull request #49 from perl6/jaffa4-patch-1

Update META.list add Dependency-Sort
masak TimToady: I'm surprised to hear that. I'll have to revise my understanding of argument evaluation, then.
TimToady yes, it evaluates left-to-right, and you still can't depend on the interaction of side effects with references
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TimToady it evaluates $x and returns $x, not it's value 18:38
masak *nod*
TimToady we can't do otherwise till we know how it's to be bound
masak oh, that is true.
TimToady so this is a Will Not Fix
masak silently shuffles over to the "yeah, so don't do that" camp 18:39
basically this falls out of having `is rw` 18:40
TimToady or even default ro that can cheat with rw for efficiency
which is what the current design is optimized for
otherwise we'd have to pessimize everything to 'is copy' 18:41
jnthn heh, was just about to make the points TimToady++ just did, but by the time I caught up wiht backlog he'd made 'em 18:44
foo($pair) becoming a named breaks the "we always statically/syntactically know what is a named arg and a positional arg"
Which would be horrible from a compiler/performance perspective, if I'm wearing that hat. 18:45
But I don't want it from a refactoring/obvious visual mapping to behavior perspective either ;)
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jnthn Rightly, lets see if I can nail the last 12 VM-level multi-dim tests on JVM... 18:48
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[Coke] what are you using for compact storage on the JVM? 18:57
moritz IO::Notification.watch_path gives me a FileChangeEvent::FileRenamed for both created and deleted files
is that expected?
jnthn [Coke]: A depressing amount of copy-paste code...and JVM native arrays. 18:58
moritz: Good question, iirc it's a fairly direct exposure of what libuv tells us. 18:59
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timotimo it could be that it's platform-dependent, or maybe even dependent on what exactly the application does to create a file or delete it? 19:08
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timotimo has not done much with filesystem watchers yet 19:08
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dha In the p5->p6 doc, in the bit about whitespace, it shows these contrasting examples: 19:13
$seen {$_} ++; # Perl 5
$seen{$_}++; # Perl 6
Should that second one not be C<%seen{$_}++> ?
masak yes, it should. 19:16
today I had a silly idea for a slang -- I thought I'd share. 19:17
dha Oh good. if you haven't beaten me to it, I'll change that. :-)
dalek c: e7051e3 | (David H. Adler)++ | lib/Language/5to6.pod:
Changed Perl 6 example in Whitespace section from C<$seen{$_}++> to
 19:19
dha masak - Slang is good. :-)
masak so, let's say you have a `class C ` and a `my %h{C}` -- then the entries in %h could almost be seen as a kind of "external attribute" or "outside-in attributes". and we could allow `$c.%h` to mean `%h{$c}`.
good idea, or great idea? :P 19:20
it would be kind of like `$c.&sub()`, but for data. 19:21
jnthn notes that $c.@foo already has a meaning 19:24
masak that somehow doesn't bother me much. 19:25
I'd also be fine with the syntax `$c.%h{}`, which mirrors `$c.&foo()` more closely.
RabidGravy Hmm as it currently stands I think Audio::Encode::LameMP3 is going to be too slow, the copying of large arrays to CArrays and back is really quite costly 19:30
jnthn RabidGravy: What're you copying them from/to?
[Coke] masak: scoping on that seems.. hard.
masak RabidGravy: if only someone was working on compact multidim arrays... :P 19:31
[Coke]: how so? `$c` and `%h` must both be in scope, or course. it's literally just sugar for `$h{$c}`. 19:32
RabidGravy masak :) 19:34
dalek p: 5c3771f | jnthn++ | t/moar/02-multidim.t:
Eliminate bogus test.

nqp::numdimensions op is for use on instances only.		 19:35
p: b61ab1e | jnthn++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/sixmodel/reprs/MultiDimArray (12 files):
Implement serialize/deserialize of MultiDimArray.
RabidGravy jnthn, basically @array -> CArray[$type] -> lame_encode(CArray) -> CArray[uint8] -> Buf
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dha So, in p5's perlsyn, it indicates that all declarations take place at compile time. a) is that still true in p6 and b) is there any reason that should be explicitly pointed out if it isn't? 19:36
jnthn It'd be desriable to eliminate 2 of those steps :)
dha: Yes, it's still true in Perl 6; there's also more things that count as declarations.
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jnthn m: sub foo() { say "I'm here!" }; BEGIN foo; 19:37
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«I'm here!␤»
jnthn That one I guess is same as Perl 5
m: class C { method m() { say "I'm here!" } }; BEGIN C.m;
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«I'm here!␤»
jnthn But classes also come into existence at BEGIN time 19:38
m: class C { method m() { say "I'm here!" }; BEGIN C.m; } # this too, even...
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«I'm here!␤»
jnthn But don't do that :P
(the final one I did, that is)
dha ok. I think that may be out of the scope of the Declarations section of perlsyn anyway.
jnthn Maybe so. BEGIN time is very much a thing in Perl 6 though :) 19:39
So much so I managed to do a whole hour's talk about it :P
[Coke] masak: oh. meh? 19:41
dha This is why, in the documents I'm working on, I make a point of saying that these documents are meant to guide you from p5 to p6 and, therefore, will not be exhausively documenting p6. :-) 19:42
masak [Coke]: I could see it being useful. I sometimes want to "annotate" my own or other others' objects with externally available information.
[Coke]: like, say, in a DFS algorithm, I want to mark nodes as "seen" or "visited". 19:45
dalek p: ef58e0d | jnthn++ | t/jvm/02-multidim.t:
Give t/jvm a copy of the multi-dim tests.
 19:46
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RabidGravy jnthn, yeah, unfortunately you can't do anything with the CArrays without passing the length around 19:48
dalek p: 80a51ca | jnthn++ | t/jvm/02-multidim.t:
Add uncomposed/type-object edge-case tests.

The JVM implementation nails these, but MoarVM probably won't yet.		 19:51
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hoelzro when determining the longest literal prefix for a rule, I see that | alternation variants can extend the literal prefix. Does the same apply for ||? 19:57
masak no. 19:58
hoelzro thanks masak
jnthn Yeah, hitting a sequential alternation marks the end of the declarative prefix. 20:00
(just checked that's exactly what happens in the code)
hoelzro I saw the behavior, just checking to see that it made sense spec-wise =)
jnthn aye belive so 20:01
*aye, I believe so...
FROGGS 'think so too fwiw
aye feel you forgot something there :P
TimToady m: say 'food' ~~ / 'foo' | ('food' || 'doof')/ 20:02
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«｢foo｣␤»
FROGGS doof O.o
TimToady hmm, STD would've picked 'food' there
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FROGGS ò.ó 20:02
TimToady it counts the first part of the || as declarative
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jnthn TimToady: Declarative but optional, I presume? 20:03
TimToady it counts the 'food' as part of LTM, iirc
on the assumption that most || are just error throws 20:04
m: say 'food' ~~ / 'foo' | ('food' <!> || 'doof')/ 20:05
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«｢foo｣␤»
dha Ok, so in Perl 5, C<if>, C<unless>, C<while>, C<until>, C<for>, C<foreach>, and C<when> can be used as statement modifiers. Other than C<do {...} while (blah)> being replaced with C<repeat {...} while(blah)>, are there any restrictions in p6 on these being used as statement modifiers?
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masak TimToady: well, does that have any support in S05? otherwise S05 should probably mention that... 20:06
RabidGravy dha, and no foreach
hoelzro fwiw, Grammar::Tracer disagrees with the longest literal prefix conclusion =/
masak dha: yes, you can only nest conditional modifiers inside loopy ones. no other combination, at least not without parens.
m: .say if $_ %% 2 for 1..10 20:07
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«2␤4␤6␤8␤10␤»
masak m: .say for 1..10 if True
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/Q3__3m6Wqy␤Missing semicolon␤at /tmp/Q3__3m6Wqy:1␤------> 3.say for 1..10 if 7⏏5True␤»
dha RabidGravy - Well, foreach is now for, and the c-style for is now loop.
masak - uh... not sure if I'm clear on what you're saying there. 20:08
TimToady masak: depends on how you read it...it says that LTM is terminated by a || 20:09
dha Are you saying that I can't do C<< foo() if $x > 5 >>? Or possibly that I can do that, but it would have to be C<< foo() if($x > 5 >>?
sorry, ($x > 5) 20:10
jnthn dha: No, you can do C<< foo() if $x > 5 >> just fine
masak dha: I'm saying it has to be `stmt if .. for ..` in that order, but the `if` can be any conditional (or missing) and the `for` can be any loop (or missing)
jnthn dha: It's that you can't do like C<< foo() for @a if $x > 5; >> for example
TimToady masak: actually, it's explicitly required at S05:2885 20:11
masak right, loops may not nest inside confitionals
TimToady: ok, good.
TimToady so this is a bug, by that
masak submits rakudobug 20:12
TimToady m: say 'food' ~~ / 'foo' | ('food' <!> || die "Should die here")/
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«｢foo｣␤»
dha considers how to phrase this...
hoelzro the longest literal prefix is a static property of a Regex, right? would it make sense to expose that as a property on a Regex object, so that users can discover what it is without having to dive into rakudo internals?
masak .oO( well yeah, if it's correctly implemented... ) :P 20:13
TimToady hoelzro: as currently defined, ab [ cd | ef ] has two longest literals 20:14
hoelzro ah, so the longest literal for tie breaking depends on which actually matched, right?
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TimToady right 20:15
it's not clear whether those semantics will survive some of the optimizations I'd like to do, though
hoelzro alright
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RabidGravy right, it took a gnat's cock over an hour to encode a 5:50 WAV file to a 320kbps WAV at moderate quality 20:16
this clearly won't work for streaming
:-\
TimToady not yet 20:17
RabidGravy 320kbps MP3 rather
20:19 frobisher is now known as dha
FROGGS hah, working on leave() almost makes me feel that I know what I'm doing :P 20:19
dalek p: bd3a92a | jnthn++ | tools/build/MOAR_REVISION:
Bump to MoarVM with some multi-dim fixes.
 20:20
p: 65d85a3 | jnthn++ | t/moar/02-multidim.t:
Run some extra multi-dim tests on Moar.
dha I guess my remaining question about statement modifiers is, is there some way in which C<loop> can be used as one? 20:22
masak no.
dha Didn't think so. ok.
RabidGravy am I right in saying that the return type plays no role whatsoever in multi dispatch? 20:25
FROGGS correct 20:26
would be nice if it was though, IMO
though maybe it would cause too much trouble 20:27
like forcing the caller to be strict on the expected return type to not have more than one mmd candidate 20:28
RabidGravy yeah especially chaining multi methods to multi methods
jnthn Indeed 20:29
FROGGS: I'll look at your leave work tomorrow :) 20:30
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TimToady still wonders whether a small return should just be called "ret" 20:31
jnthn got done with the JVM porting of the multi-dim array underpinnings
dha Small Prophet, Quick Return. 20:33
RabidGravy not a slight return then 20:35
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dha Quite frankly, I'm still surprised that they let him get away with that title, but wouldn't let him use "Is There A Doctor In The Horse" 20:37
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FROGGS jnthn: it changed in the meantime :P 20:38
jnthn FROGGS: Yes, I noticed I've more commits to look at now ;)
FROGGS jnthn: no, not committed yet, but will do before going to bed 20:39
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jnthn OK :) 20:40
Gonna get some rest...had an early morning
'night
FROGGS gnight jnthn 20:41
RabidGravy nighty night 20:42
masak 'night, #perl6
FROGGS m: say Block.^mro 20:44
camelia rakudo-moar 533d1a: OUTPUT«(Block) (Code) (Any) (Mu)␤»
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dha Are there any significant differences between p5's C<goto> and p6's C<goto>? 20:57
PerlJam dha: yeah, the latter doesn't work yet :) 20:58
dha Heh. But if it *did* work...
Am I safe in saying "It doesn't work. But when it does work, it will be pretty much the same as it was in Perl 5"? 21:02
PerlJam I think p6's goto is a little more structured, but I'd check S04 to be sureer.
dha Yeah, I looked at S04. It made my brain hurt.
Also, I seem to have found another search bug at doc.perl6.org. Searching for "..." gives a result, but when you go to it the page is not found. 21:04
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meisl hello #perl6 21:06
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dha Achievement unlocked: perlsyn finished. 22:20
(sort of, anyway.) 22:21
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RabidGravy right, bed time. 22:34
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dha Do we have a Getopt kind of module for Perl 6 yet? Or some kind of built in capacity for dealing with command line flags in programs? 23:03
skids So, what was the rationale behind having unhandled Failures carp when DESTROYed? 23:05
23:05 dha left
skids dha: sub MAIN does some stuff. But only if you want to conform to what it does. Not that that's a bad idea for new apps, but it isn't getopt and can't emulate legacy stuff. 23:06
raiph dha: perl6advent.wordpress.com/2010/12/...main-subs/ 23:10
skids Hrm, is there a way to remove a submethod from a parent class when subclassing it? 23:11
raiph I've got 'Foo.pm6' in cwd. Script 'Bar.pl6' contains 'use Foo;'. But 'perl6 Bar.pl6' says "Could not find Foo...". What am I doing wrong? 23:15
skids: submethods don't get inherited
skids trying to figure out how to subclass Failure and remove DESTROY. 23:16
I don't want that behavior.
raiph skids: will shadowing the submethod suffice? 23:17
skids Nope, tried that.
Also tried self.Bool to autohandle it in the subclasse's DESTROY, but that doesn't seem to work either. 23:18
I don't see why the behavior is useful to begin with, IMO one should have to use a specially flaovored Failure to get GC warnings. 23:19
Just because I create a Failure doesn't mean I want it active. If I decide otherwise and throw it in the trash it should just go away. 23:21
raiph sees that perl6 -I. *does* work after all 23:33
skids Anyway, on more minor Failure related issues, comments/bikeshedding for github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/470 is welcome. 23:42
raiph surprised that perl6 -I. seems to have stopped working again 23:43
skids I've never use -l. specifically.
raiph ah, just figured it out. was getting extensions wrong. 23:44
skids: do you use PERL6LIB?
skids sometimes, or "use lib" in the script... the latter especially with t/ directories.
Or -l./something. I'm usually not working with scripts in the cwd. 23:45

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