»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz on 22 December 2015.
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vcv m: multi t{say "noargs"}; multi t(:$id){say "arg:$id"}; t; 00:02
camelia rakudo-moar fe90be: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value $id of type Any in string context.␤Methods .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can be used to stringify it to something meaningful. in sub t at <tmp> line 1␤arg:␤»
timotimo named arguments are optional by default 00:05
you need to put an exclamation point after :$id to enforce its presence
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timotimo m: multi t{say "noargs"}; multi t(:$id!){say "arg:$id"}; t; 00:10
camelia rakudo-moar fe90be: OUTPUT«noargs␤»
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vcv Ah right. thanks 00:15
though i would have thought it would have called the first one since the signature matched both 00:16
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TimToady order only matters when testing constraints 00:18
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TimToady
.oO(TRUMP-PENCE should add #FascistFool to that...)
 01:26
TEttinger #ThinksIrcIsTwitter 01:28
TimToady apparently
timotimo if trump wins the election, i'm afraid i'll be sick 01:29
TimToady maybe it's a bot to figure out who to put up against the wall when the "second amendment people" march on Washington
timotimo though maybe there'll be enough iodine pills available by that time 01:30
on the other hand, iodine pills don't really make it all that much better, do they?
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TEttinger Trumpquavex, from the makers of Vicodin. Are ordinary opioid painkillers not enough to take the pain away that Trump causes you? 01:30
TimToady it's already starting to sound like the guy is planning to lose the election and then call for armed revolution... 01:31
timotimo that would be ... quite something 01:34
i don't want to think about it
timotimo heads towards bed
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konobi I haven't seen him in a long time, but does anyone know if Sean M. Burke still on IRC these days? 03:13
TimToady: i have a bit of an abstract language question/idea that i'd wonder how it'd fit into perl6 smoothly 03:18
namely, using perl6 strings (maybe with some sort of sigil) to indicate a multilingual string that should/may have maketext-style translation strings with the current string as it's key. then use a combination of the grammar engine and a list of .po files to show which keys have a translations available and which ones, so that translation can be done reactively 03:24
lucs konobi: He pops up every once in a while on irc.perl.org (as TorgoX). 03:46
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andrzejku hello :) 06:08
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gfldex I have decided to leave stackexchange for good and am in the process to have the content I provided there removed - a surprisingly time consuming task. If coverage of stackexchange is desired somebody else will have to take over. 06:35
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Ulti I just noticed this whilst answering... 07:54
any reason to delete your content? 07:55
gfldex i found that other users can edit my posts without my consent. Also I never really liked the whole gamification bullshit.
Ulti really? I wasnt aware of that, there is an edit history though 07:56
oh yeah I can edit them, but apparantly its in an edit queue that has to be approved 07:57
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gfldex the whole platform seams to be attractive to folk with a mindset that is calles Blockwartmentalität in german. Fairly hard to translate but very repelling to me. 07:57
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockwart 07:58
Ulti I think we would just say fascist in English
gfldex not at all 07:59
it's more PC going wrong, helicoper parents, triggerwarning etc.
Ulti but still you aren't deleting your answers but instead editing them to mention you are quitting
gfldex i can't delete accepted answers, it simply wont let me 08:00
Ulti so now we have a "community" there which is quite often solo answers that just state you are leaving
gfldex and i can only edit 5 messaged per day
i agree that is ugly but my options are limited. I did try to get in contect with support, no reply yet. 08:01
also, if the "community" is mostly me answering questions, i would question that there is any community at all 08:02
Ulti sure I agree but I've answered a few solo too
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Ulti its more if someone gives a good answer there isnt much point following it up, since no one here is in the "game" 08:02
gfldex i would like to add that it's the same person and one of many forced edits by the same guy
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Ulti have you flagged up the user? 08:03
gfldex as I wrote earlier, if anyone believes it has value, pick up the torch
Ulti also what sorts of edits? just spelling or something more nefarious? 08:04
pmurias konobi: you want to use grammars to determine which translation string don't have a .po string for a given language?
gfldex way beyond spelling and frankly, I grow tired discussing it. I wanted to write a blog post for 3 days now. 08:05
but then the title is "Lazy all the way down" so that delay may actually quite fitting :) 08:06
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Ulti well thanks for sharing the circumstance, I'm surprised there is no moderation for this sort of thing 08:09
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Ulti minimally you should be able to block a user from editing your content 08:09
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gfldex they can't do that without breaking the gamification-reward-carrot 08:10
you gain power by providing accepted answer
at some point you become rewarded with the ability to force your will on others and get even more carrots for doing so 08:11
Ulti gfldex one thing I can see your full answer history...
like if I just click on your history for a "I am leaving" I can just see your old answer anyway 08:12
gfldex indeed, I have very little power over my one unpayed for work 08:14
hance the quitting
there is no easy way out and I believe that to be intentional 08:15
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cygx gfldex: note that when you joined stackexchange, you agreed to license your content under creative commone attribution share-alike 08:16
they are fully within their rights to restore anything you deleted
Ulti gfldex: are you talking about "Christopher Bottoms" which is the only editor I can see?
pmurias gfldex: by stackexchange you are referring to stackoverflow? 08:17
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cygx arguably, removing your content is something of a dick move - wou don't remve your content from Wikipedia when you stop contributing 08:19
just delete the user so it's no longer associated with you
gfldex stackexchange is one of the many "communities" under the privately held stackoverflow umrella
geekosaur other way around 08:20
stackoverflow is one of many stackexchange sites
Ulti gfldex: all I can see is that guy corrected your grammar and added `` for code words in your text, I would be glad if someone did that. I usually have four edits of my answers where I worry about grammar
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gfldex cygx: i that case i am happily guilty of a dick move. They could have told me in nice friendly letters when I signed up. Sadly they choose to hide that information under a mountain of ToS. 08:21
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gfldex Util: you see less then I see then. That again is likely intentional. Maybe if you gained more carrots you can see all of it. 08:22
Ulti well its more I gave up after the first two edits I found 08:23
gfldex cygx: also, since I am not paid for my work I feel strangely entitled to that dick move. 08:25
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cygx gfldex: I think of it more or less the same way I think of contributing to WIkipedia or an open source project 08:27
the content is no longer yours exclusively
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Ulti gfldex my attitude towards that end is usually tempered by I feel the people who asked a question and used your answer are now entitled to that content too you wouldnt go back and wipe someones mind of a conversation you had just because you didn't want them to have it anymore 08:31
pmurias just quiting seems saner then waging an edit war with people driven by brownie points
gfldex cygx: then our opinion differ. I believe the perspective of making someone quit by pissing that person of should come with consequences, that go beyond seeing somebodies back. Power should be balanced and have consequences.
Ulti that you arent actually removing the content but making it hard to read and replacing it with a message about you leaving is also extra drastic, which I agree is a failing of Stack Overflow 08:32
gfldex pmurias: are you suggesting that I am insane?
actually, I believe it is better I part this channel for a while. I wanted to get stuff done. 08:33
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Ulti :( 08:35
I am kind of amazed you cant just delete your account 08:36
cygx Ulti: it's like Wikipedia - the user can go, the content stays - though I do no longer see the delete button in my profile where it used to be... 08:37
Ulti well I'm in a stay at home mood I might go through and try and independently answer everything gfldex solo answered :[
is it possible to block people so you dont see the answers? that way I can properly claim I'm not just reverting gfldex's content 08:38
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cygx apparently, you need to go through the contact support page to get an account deleted 08:39
Ulti I respect his right to not have his stuff on there regardless of ToS you can't actually give up copyright in the UK its an intrinsic right... despite what anyone tells you
cygx Ulti: but he has granted a usage license, and he's trying to revoke that 08:40
Ulti sure but in the UK he would have the legal right to do so
its not possible for a third party to remove that right from someone
but yeah digital content doesnt really work like a piece of writing on paper :/ 08:41
cygx Ulti: but a licensee is within his rights to sue you if you just go back on a license agreement
what woud have to be argued is that the agreement is void because the the terms where not clear 08:42
Ulti you could probably even argue it was rendered to HTML on another server and so is a different work
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Ulti cygx they could try but I'd hope a court would be more on the side of gfldex 08:42
he hadnt consciously agreed to a system where others could edit his stuff 08:43
not that I agree with defacing your existing content :S 08:44
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Ulti :( gfldex nearly always had the best answer but others have mostly put something up too 08:46
cygx Ulti: it's not exactly prominently advertized that others can edit your posts, but it's not exactly hidden either 08:48
When should I edit posts? - Any time you feel you can make the post better, and are inclined to do so. Editing is encouraged!
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Ulti I have to say on the concept of editing peoples content I'm more on the shock side with gfldex, Wikipedia does not directly attribute content to you directly 08:51
someone could completely change my comment and my name would still be on it 08:52
thats open to defaming soemone
though you are rate limited on the edits so its not like you could systematically alter someones voice 08:54
cygx Ulti: you need to have aquired enough karma to be able to edit posts without someone else approving it
if you abuse that power, you risk being banned and losing your karma
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cygx as far as I know, it works reasonably well 08:54
Ulti sure I dont really have much of a problem with it 08:56
but it does sound like there isn't much of a mechanism to prevent bad things either if you are one of the lower level users
Wikipedia was incredibly infuriating at times
I stopped editing after a while just because it got so annoying 08:57
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pmurias the way people can manipulate the content on wikipedia behing the scenes by using a complex system of internal rules sucks 09:01
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gfldex lolibloggedalittle gfldex.wordpress.com/2016/08/14/it...-way-down/ 11:01
and i can remove the post whenever I like \o/
i better make a backup …
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AlexDaniel gfldex: sooo… how to delete all of your stackoverflow answers? 11:13
did you figure out? :)
gfldex not yet, no reply from support 11:14
given that they earn money via ads one might think they got the money to pay someone to answer support calls. But I doubt they pay enough to convince anyone to work on sundays. 11:16
AlexDaniel or maybe just renaming your account to “IamNotUsingStackoverflowAnymore” should work?
gfldex as I understand it you can have your account deleted, what will remove your name from the work you did. The work however will stay. 11:19
AlexDaniel my score doubled since I stopped writing any answers, but it will take another year or two at such pace (or maybe more?) till I get access to moderator tools, but I don't think that this will help me in any way… 11:20
well it kinda makes sense that the answers are going to stay, given that you kinda contributed it under CC-SA license 11:22
gfldex i wonder if they can show me my signature under that contract 11:23
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smls Ulti: re "someone could completely change my comment and my name would still be on it": It shows that it was edited, and by whom, right next to your name. 11:31
AlexDaniel not sure if that's a good question. I think that the best solution is to write a nice well-thought-out blog post post on why you hate stackoverflow and why everyone should stop using it. At least, that's what I did…
smls Ulti: Also, the idea of SO is that answers are not someone's "comment", but rather form a collaborative database, kinda like a wiki. 11:33
gfldex i do not believe one bit that everyone should stop using it. If one is fine with surrendering freedom for the common good, I'm not going to disagree. I am just sad that they didn't tell that I have to do that _before_ I signed up.
smls Ulti: Only the little comment section below answers, functions like a forum where each comment is considered a message by its auther. Not the answres themselves. 11:34
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AlexDaniel what kind of freedom? You want to delete your contributions? But… did anybody tell you that it wont be possible to delete your awesome contributions to perl 6 documentation? ;) 11:35
cygx well, the terms of servives explain that your contributions will be released under cc by-sa, the tour mentions that "As you earn reputation, you'll unlock new privileges like the ability to vote, comment, and even edit other people's posts.", but if you want detail, you do need to navigate to stackoverflow.com/help/editing 11:40
perhaps that link should be mentioned at signup
gfldex in the case of the docs I did make my homework and informed myself what license I license my work with to the general public. Yet I reserve the freedom express my _wish_ to remove my contributions in the future, fully aware of the fact that I have no right to demand a wish to be fulfilled. 11:41
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gfldex I found that if there is good reason to be polite, you get more politeness. :) 11:44
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AlexDaniel gfldex: but isn't it correct to say that it's your fault that you did not inform yourself? 11:46
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Ulti smls that SO want it to be that way *and* also rely on direct attribution is kind of the problem you can't have both... imagine Wikipedia if every edit diff had the users name next to it 11:47
gfldex one could make that argument. But then one could make the argument that a body that calls itself a "community" should respect the wishes of members of that "community" esp. if they want to take their ball and go home. If they refuse to respect that wish one could call them a "cult".
Ulti the editing at a minimum should be controlled by the OP having someone be able to edit over you without permission is kind of weird... you could always make it so that you can trust a given user so they can do what they like 11:49
cygx Ulti: any user that gains 2000 reputation is autumatically trusted
Ulti right but you can have 2000 reputation without any respect or reputation from the person or even sub community you are editing in 11:51
smls Ulti: Wikipedia does list the user names next to all diffs in the "View history" tab.
Ulti sure but not on the actual article people are reading
how often (if ever) do you check the history of an SO answer? 11:52
AlexDaniel Ulti: you only get 100 rep points on other SE websites though
Ulti the vast majority of people dont even realise it's there on wikipedia
AlexDaniel SO only I mean
so someone with 2k reputation answering python questions should be trusted for perl answers? 11:53
AlexDaniel Ulti: haha, that's a good point
Ulti I'm not saying any of it is bad, just the implementation feels a little off
AlexDaniel Ulti: see this files.progarm.org/2014-11-16-18183..._scrot.png
smls Ulti: Yeah, attribution is displayed less *prominently* on Wikipedia, but that's a difference of degree, not a fundamental one.
Ulti like its open to some abuse that could easily be avoided
the edit rate limiting is what they chose
AlexDaniel Ulti: that's a message I got from some guy having a lot of answers about powershell
Ulti yeah that sort of response AlexDaniel is messed up 11:55
why would anyone give a crap about the gamification side of SO??
do you get cash at some level -____- have I been doing this wrong 11:56
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AlexDaniel I kinda like that the attribution is less prominent on Wikipedia. This way there's no gamification at all. Well, almost 11:57
Ulti: well, you don't get cash, no. But some say that it may play a role when you apply for a new job 11:58
Ulti not in any role I have ever come across 11:59
I would never think to check someones SO account, perhaps their GitHub
plus what would it indicate, you are good in a user support role? 12:00
cygx note that stackoverflow provides its own 'jobs' portal
Ulti yeah I guess I dont shop for pure software jobs
AlexDaniel Ulti: some might argue that it means that you know shit, which is probably a fair assumption 12:01
Ulti my citation record of actual published papers tends to be more important than stack overflow karma... but is essentially the exact same metric
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AlexDaniel By the way… Anybody please feel free to edit any of my GitHub comments. I don't mind at all. 12:04
Ulti yeah I dont mind edits on anything despite all this chat :3
I assume anything I put on the net is fair game
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gfldex i would like to point out that wikipedia is maintained by donations. Stackoverflow is maintained by a privately owned company via selling ads. If I would have scrolled all the way down I could have read that information in a line of text that is 1.8mm small on my screen. If I would have done so I would have known what to expect. My own bloody fault, right? 12:10
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troyT` hi 12:14
AlexDaniel troyT`: hello 12:15
troyT` I was wondering if anybody else has trouble installing rakudo
I tried to do it but it doesn't work
gfldex that happens at times. can you provide more infomration of your troubles?
troyT` I followed the guide on rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo/#Insta...Rakudobrew 12:16
I am using Ubuntu 16.04
I could build moar
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troyT` and I can run basic perl6 12:16
but I can't get panda to work 12:17
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gfldex please try `rakudobrew build zef` 12:17
AlexDaniel troyT`: what abou ｢rakudobrew build panda｣ ?
or that, yes
gfldex zef will likely replace panda in the next release 12:18
troyT` oh, I see
I am not really up to date on these things
so panda indicated that it is installing File::Find
but nothing else then
only the 'please make sure' stuff 12:19
and I don't have panda in the indicated location
whre can I read about zef?
gfldex github.com/ugexe/zef 12:20
troyT` thanks
AlexDaniel gfldex: well, when I was joining stackoverflow I was aware of all that stuff, but at the time I did not realize that it is not something I want to be part of. And I'm not sure what is worse, that or not knowing something… it feels bad anyway :) 12:21
troyT` I tried zef but it errors out :-/ 12:22
AlexDaniel troyT`: can you upload the log somewhere so that we can take a look? 12:24
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gfldex troyT`: did you install rakudo before? 12:28
troyT` no, I haven't
this is a relatively new install
I uploaded the log pastebin
pastebin.com/F5B1Bmdg
gfldex i'm going to check in a clean VM if it builds for me
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grondilu m: say cos(pi/2); 12:31
camelia rakudo-moar fe90be: OUTPUT«6.12323399573677e-17␤»
troyT` I'll try a clean vm too 12:32
with Ubuntu 16.04
grondilu m: role HalfPi {}; multi infix:<*>(pi, 2) { pi/2 but HalfPi }; multi cos(HalfPi $) { 0 }; say cos(pi/2) 12:34
camelia rakudo-moar fe90be: OUTPUT«6.12323399573677e-17␤»
grondilu meh, nevermind
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grondilu sometimes I wish P6 would do some accurate calculations until I realize I'm basically asking for symbolic computations, which is way too much asking. 12:42
like having cos(pi/2) return exactly 0.
AlexDaniel grondilu: github.com/raydiak/Math-Symbolic ? 12:44
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grondilu oh yeah, forgot about this module. 12:48
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gfldex troyT`: installing rakudo and zef works, installing Task::Star doesn't 13:01
troyT` thanks for taking a look
I am building moar in my vm right now
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gfldex ===SORRY!=== 13:02
Failure fetching to: False
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gfldex i'm not sure if zef should mimic rakudo in that case 13:03
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dalek ateverable: 70e6fd3 | (Daniel Green)++ | Benchable.p6:
Allow (and require) you to specify a commit when comparing code snippets
 13:09
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troyT` gfldex: I could install zef in my vm too, Task::Star is ongoing 13:21
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dogbert17 good afternoon #perl6 13:25
would you say that gist.github.com/dogbert17/c981bf86...85fe1febf0 gives a truthful description of Bool.gist? 13:26
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Zoffix IMO Mu.gist already gives a fine description. 13:30
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Zoffix m: say 42, Str 13:31
camelia rakudo-moar fe90be: OUTPUT«42(Str)␤»
Zoffix m: say "foo", Int
camelia rakudo-moar fe90be: OUTPUT«foo(Int)␤»
gfldex ugexe: installing panda in a clean VM fails right now. The culprit seams to be Zef::Client!config<TempDir> .
Zoffix It's doing that for all the types and documenting the same thing for all the types is adding extra maintenance baggage for little benefit IMO
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dogbert17 Zoffix: ok, I can try some other method instead, thx for the feedback 13:32
dalek ateverable: 736e043 | (Daniel Green)++ | Benchable.p6:
Remove debugging line left in accidentally
 13:37
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dogbert17 interesting, searching for Numeric on docs.perl6.org and selecting Routine Numeric takes you to method 'log' in role Numeric 13:38
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Zoffix Someone's asking for help with identifying symlinks and what they point to, if anyone knows: www.reddit.com/r/perl6/comments/4x...lic_links/ 13:42
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lizmat I think we need to point to "IO::Path.resolve" 13:46
dogbert17 indeed
and this perhaps: docs.perl6.org/type/IO$COLON$COLON..._operators 13:47
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smls lizmat: .resolve doesn't work with broken symlinks though 13:48
the handling of broken symlinks in Perl 6 is kinda broken, as that reddit user already discovered
lizmat refrains from comments again
smls Did I say something wrong? 13:49
lizmat smls: no, this just touched on a sore spot with me
smls: nothing you said or done :-)
smls ok
Is it because this is the kind of stuff that your newio branch fixed, which wasn't merged because the Perl 6.c release was kinda rushed? 13:50
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lizmat well, my feeling is that it was more that nobody was interested at the time 13:50
especially on the @LARRY front :-(
so the branch got bitrotted in the GLR and other refactors 13:51
and by that time the -Ofun factor had gone below zero for me
geekosaur trainwreck :(
smls :(
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MasterDuke speaking of @LARRY and IO::Path.resolve, my old PR github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/775 has the "pending user" tag, but i think it's really waiting on an @LARRY decision 13:53
should that be added to RT #128214, or does it not need that level of decision? 13:54
synopsebot6 Link: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Displa...?id=128214
lizmat please add :-) 13:55
MasterDuke i can't edit tickets, would someone else mind doing so? TIA 13:56
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lizmat smls dogbert17 Zoffix anyway, to get back to the original issue: I guess for now "use MONKEY-GUTS; nqp::readlink" is the short-term answer 13:56
$ ln -s dringobat zippo 13:57
Zoffix MasterDuke, added @LARRY tag
lizmat $ 6 'use nqp; say nqp::readlink("zippo")'
dringobat
Zoffix lizmat++ thanks. Forwarded to reddit 13:59
MasterDuke Zoffix: TATF (thanks after the fact. don't think that's a real thing though)
Zoffix MasterDuke, what's not a real thing?
mst lizmat: there was a fair amount of carnage in the lead up to the release, and it sucked for various people, but ... managing to get to release I think in the long run will've been worth it 14:00
MasterDuke oh, i'm just making up acronyms
dogbert17 m: say True.Numeric # would it be correct to say that the '1' is the ordinal value of True in the enum?
camelia rakudo-moar 191dc0: OUTPUT«1␤»
mst lizmat: there should clearly have been more hugs for the people affected though :)
lizmat mst: not disagreeing there
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Zoffix MasterDuke, @LARRY tag is for tickets needing the decision by core team members. I thought that was the change that should've been made to the ticket? Was there a different change you needed? 14:00
lizmat it's still just a sore spot with me
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MasterDuke Zoffix: nope, that's exactly what was needed 14:01
Zoffix \o/
lizmat mst: and after having hit the concrete at 25km/hour yesterday while cycling, I should be less sensitive to just yet another sore spot :-)
mst *grins*
lizmat: right, but I can think it was probably necessary *and* still be sympathetic :) 14:02
lizmat
.oO( needs to get use to the touchpad not working when you have a bandaid on it )
*used
:-)
AlexDaniel mst: perhaps you can delete some spam in p5 queue? It was there for 7 hours :) 14:03
seems like in perl 5 queue I can only mark it, but it does not get deleted right away
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mst AlexDaniel: I don't have rights to do that 14:04
AlexDaniel oh
nevermind then… 14:05
mst I'm not actually in charge of that many things, I'm just very good at figuring out who is and asking them nicely ;)
AlexDaniel mst: ok, understood
mst if you mention it in #p5p on irc.perl.org somebody'll probably nuke it
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dogbert17 lizmat: btw, thanks for working on working on comb during the week 14:18
lizmat was the effect noticeable ? 14:19
dogbert17 a little, a few percent 14:20
lizmat cool :-)
dogbert17 indeed :)
what's your next target?
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lizmat Sets 14:20
I have about 8 other points of interest, but they are all blocked because of reasons I do not yet understand 14:21
sometimes it's just a single spectest failing, but if I don't understand why it's failing
I'm not going to push
instead I wait for inspiration :-)
dogbert17 :-)
AlexDaniel lizmat++ 14:23
dogbert17 indeed lizmat++ 14:24
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dalek c: 18d98d6 | (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ | doc/Type/Bool.pod6:
Added docs for Bool.Numeric
 14:26
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ugexe gfldex: can you send me the output using `ZEF_PLUGIN_DEBUG=1 zef --debug install ...` ? It could be TempDir, but that error also happens when Proc.run doesn't work right with the order a command populates out vs err 15:17
gfldex it's Task::Star 15:18
gonna take a while
ugexe oh. during panda of Task::Star?
gfldex i used zef 15:19
err, not sure
ugexe right, but what did Task::Star fail on
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ugexe im trying it myself btw. Task::Star has caused problems before, but usually due to Build.pm + precomp issues 15:20
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ugexe needs to propagate real error messages past the service locator layer 15:22
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ugexe Task::Star installed for me. So it must indeed be permissions related with TempDir, or Proc.run not liking your OS curl/wget/git/whatever 15:30
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crucialrhyme when installing Task::Star i get lots of "can't continue" when installing DBIish i assume because i don't have these various dbs installed on my system. is this going to cause problems for me down the line? 16:08
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tailgate what resources are there on perl6 lazy lists? Like a really detailed article or documetation 16:15
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andrzejku tailgate, when I learn perl6 I look at the documentation 16:21
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ugexe m: my $a = map { .say }, (^100); $a[3]; # lazy lists in a nutshell 16:32
camelia rakudo-moar 9a495d: OUTPUT«0␤1␤2␤3␤»
AlexDaniel gfldex: well, that was expected 16:34
gfldex ugexe: looks like it worked now. Could that error be caused by a githup timeout? 16:37
m: my @a = gather { say 1; take 1; say 2; take 2; say 3; take 3 }; 16:40
camelia rakudo-moar 9a495d: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤»
ugexe gfldex: yeah, any non-zero exitcode for git/wget/curl/etc would do it
gfldex the first example on docs.perl6.org/syntax/gather%20take is wrong
dalek c: c577eff | gfldex++ | doc/Language/control.pod6:
fix example
 16:43
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gfldex tailgate: there are no detailed docs beside docs.perl6.org/syntax/gather%20take and docs.perl6.org/language/operators#..._%E2%80%A6 16:47
lazy lists are a concept in CS and the docs are not a CS course 16:49
and I am not quilified to provide a CS course as my blogpost clearly shows :->
it provoced a good question tho, showing another hole in the docs 16:50
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dalek c: 0abb24a | gfldex++ | doc/Language/control.pod6:
correct statement about lazyment
 17:11
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TimToady er, "Binding to a scalar or sigilless container will also force binding." ? 17:14
s/binding/laziness/?
gfldex yes 17:15
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dalek c: 61d6d56 | gfldex++ | doc/Language/control.pod6:
fix braino
 17:16
gfldex i should stop thinking for the day. It's just not working right now.
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gfldex tailgate: the docs where wrong and should be corrected in 10min or so 17:19
andrzejku hi friends 17:23
heatsink hello 17:24
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timotimo gfldex: i'm confused by this post you wrote: stackoverflow.com/a/38771235/804005 17:25
oh, it's just because of the missing comma 17:26
gfldex timotimo: i am really sorry but i wont deal with stackoverflow anymore
timotimo m: say :test "a, b, c"
camelia rakudo-moar 8e5f5e: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Two terms in a row␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3say :test7⏏5 "a, b, c"␤ expecting any of:␤ infix␤ infix stopper␤ postfix␤ statement end␤ statement modifier…»
timotimo right
gfldex i am sure you will find somebody who is more then happy to edit any of my posts there 17:27
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timotimo anything in particular that ticked you off about SO? 17:29
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gfldex could you backlog please? (starting at 06:35) 17:31
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timotimo sure 17:41
masak TimToady: also, `is parsed` regexes *definitely* need some way to call into Perl 6 grammar rules 17:49
m: m: class A::B {}; class C { has A::B $.ab .= new } 18:02
camelia rakudo-moar 8e5f5e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not locate compile-time value for symbol A::B␤»
masak m: class A::B {}; class C { has A::B $.ab .= new }
camelia rakudo-moar 8e5f5e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not locate compile-time value for symbol A::B␤»
masak RT #126975
synopsebot6 Link: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Displa...?id=126975
sena_kun m: sprintf "%ld", 3; 18:06
camelia rakudo-moar 8e5f5e: OUTPUT«Directive ld is not valid in sprintf format sequence %ld␤ in any at /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/runtime/CORE.setting.moarvm line 1␤ in any panic at /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/nqp/lib/NQPHLL.moarvm line 1␤ in any statement a…»
sena_kun Our sprintf format changed recently?
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BenGoldberg m: sprintf '%d', 3; 18:46
camelia ( no output )
BenGoldberg m: say sprintf '%d', 3;
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«3␤»
BenGoldberg sena_kun, what do you expect 'l' to do?
sena_kun BenGoldberg, according to docs, it should give me long long type. 18:47
docs.perl6.org/type/Str.html#sub_sprintf
'interpret integer as native "long"'. But %lld doesn't work too. 18:48
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masak sena_kun: do you know that it ever worked? 18:54
(bisectable to the rescue!)
bisectable: sprintf "%ld", 3
bisectable masak: Exit code is 1 on both starting points (good=2015.12 bad=9a495d4), bisecting by using the output 18:55
masak: bisect log: gist.github.com/9ea9cc8a8b2bdeeaf9...df0167d177
masak: (2016-03-16) github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ad19288
masak seems not.
sena_kun masak, nope. In fact, it's not "my" question, I just do testing work of the documentation, so I check every occurence of examples that are broken.
masak sweet. 18:56
sena_kun Okay, new issue is coming... 18:57
BenGoldberg suspects someone copy-pasted from the C man page for sprintf or somesuch. 19:00
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BenGoldberg m: "bbBB".subst(/[bB]/, *.Str.succ).say; 19:08
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«bbCB␤»
BenGoldberg m: "bbBB".subst(/b|B/, *.Str.succ).say;
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«cbBB␤»
BenGoldberg m: "bbBB".subst(/b|B/, *.Str.succ, :g).say;
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«ccCC␤»
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sena_kun ping moritz 19:19
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dalek c: edbad25 | Altai-man++ | doc/Type/ (7 files):
Make examples compile
 19:24
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BenGoldberg m: sub foo { unit gather; take 1; take 2 }; say foo(); 19:29
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Malformed unit (did you mean to declare a sigilless \gather or $gather?)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3sub foo { unit gather7⏏5; take 1; take 2 }; say foo();␤»
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dalek c: 3029fc1 | Altai-man++ | doc/Type/ (6 files):
Last "Usage" sections were re-formatted, two examples for Label were added
 19:39
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moritz sena_kun: pong 20:04
yoleaux 13 Aug 2016 21:23Z <MasterDuke> moritz: i'm trying to use SVG::Plot, but even the example doesn't produce an SVG with data, just the header with the width and height set. i see a merged PR that looked like it was for the same issue, but i'm still seeing it
moritz .tell MasterDuke please open an issue for your SVG::Plot problems; otherwise I'M afraid I'll forget 20:05
yoleaux moritz: I'll pass your message to MasterDuke.
moritz and family were in Legoland (in Denmark) today 20:06
and the hostel has good and free wifi \o/
sena_kun moritz, hi. Please, look at github.com/perl6/doc/issues/216 (no problem solving, just a confirmation).
I'm sorry I ping-pong you on weekend. (: 20:07
moritz sena_kun: can be closed now
sena_kun moritz, thanks.
moritz sena_kun: no problem; the worst thing you'll get is no response :-) 20:08
I'll probably not be online the next 7 or 8 days
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sena_kun Oh, it was a lucky time for me to ping you, haha. The issue is closed and I doubt possibility of mine distracting you again soon. 20:11
masak pro tip: searching perldoc for "negative lookbehind" is usually a code smell 20:12
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moritz searching perldoc (p5) for "negative lookbehind" usually leaves you baffled by the limitation it imposes 20:14
and then you think: well, with *those* limitations, a different solution is likely easier
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timotimo moritz: have a good off-line time :) 20:17
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tailgate If I have an array of arrays, and I want to check if any of them are empty, how should I do that. Right now I'm doing 20:23
(@elements ==> {?@_ } ==> [&&])
there should be a map in front of ?@_
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sena_kun m: my @a = [["a"], ["b"], []]; say so @a; @a = [["a"], ["b"], ["d"]]; say so @a; 20:27
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«True␤True␤»
timotimo m: my @aoa = (1, 2, 3), (9, 9), (), (1, 2), (9, 9); say any(@aoa) == 0
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«any(False, False, True, False, False)␤»
timotimo m: my @aoa = (1, 2, 3), (9, 9), (), (1, 2), (9, 9); say so any(@aoa) == 0
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«True␤»
sena_kun m: my @a = [["a"], ["b"], []]; say so @a.all; @a = [["a"], ["b"], ["d"]]; say so @a;
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«False␤True␤»
tailgate thanks
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sena_kun m: my @a = [["a"], ["b"], []]; say so @a.all; @a = [["a"], ["b"], ["d"]]; say so @a.all; 20:28
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«False␤True␤»
sena_kun The second is correct, I hope.
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BenGoldberg Is anyone here decent at reading python code? I'm trying to convert some python into perl6, and I'm not getting the results I want... 20:34
Here's what I've got so far:
m: gist.github.com/BenGoldberg1/56d3e...63b653162f
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«187 isn't prime!␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 49␤␤»
BenGoldberg The original python code is at rosettacode.org/wiki/Sieve_of_Erato...ng_a_wheel
(scroll down a bit, to the code with the big list of numbers near the start) 20:35
timotimo m: my %foo = :1a, :2b, :3c; my ($a, $b) = %foo{'3'} :delete; say $a; say $b; 20:38
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«(Any)␤(Any)␤»
timotimo BenGoldberg: i think that's a part of b0rkedness 20:39
m: my %foo = :1a, :2b, :3c; my ($a, $b) = %foo{'3'}:kv:delete; say $a; say $b;
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«(Any)␤(Any)␤»
timotimo m: my %foo = :1a, :2b, :3c; my ($a, $b) = %foo{'c'}:kv:delete; say $a; say $b;
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«c␤3␤»
timotimo sorry, i wronged it.
m: my %foo = :1a, :2b, :3c; my ($a, $b) = %foo{'c'} :delete; say $a; say $b;
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«3␤(Any)␤»
timotimo but yeah, you don't get k and v with just :delete, so you don't get the values you want
but :kv in addition will give you what you need 20:40
BenGoldberg: ^- sounds good? 20:41
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BenGoldberg I think so. 20:53
Err, actually... I don't want the key, only the value 20:54
timotimo oh, the values are lists themselves? 20:55
BenGoldberg I'm storing stuff into %sieve with '%sieve{$nxt} = ($s, $si);' and similar.
timotimo OK. i wonder if you need something extra to make it properly spill into the two variables
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BenGoldberg m: my %foo; %foo{a} = ('b', 'c'); my ($x, $y) = %foo{a}:delete; dd %foo, $x, $y; 20:56
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared routine:␤ a used at line 1␤␤»
BenGoldberg m: my %foo; %foo{42} = ('b', 'c'); my ($x, $y) = %foo{42}:delete; dd %foo, $x, $y;
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«Hash %foo = {}␤Str $x = "b"␤Str $y = "c"␤»
timotimo huh. 20:57
m: my %foo; %foo{10} := ('c', 'd'); dd %foo
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«Hash %foo = {"10" => ("c", "d")}␤»
timotimo m: my %foo; %foo{10} = ('c', 'd'); dd %foo
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«Hash %foo = {"10" => $("c", "d")}␤»
timotimo oh, you had :delete there, my bad :)
BenGoldberg Right, because the original python code had sieve.pop 20:58
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BenGoldberg Anyway, I'm 90% certain that the problem is not due to '($foo, $bar) = whatever' 21:00
tailgate is zip-latest a lazy version of zip?
timotimo not quite 21:01
zip-latest doesn't require all supplies involved to emit the same amount fo things
it'll emit a new tuple whenever one of the incoming supplies changes
rather than waiting for every supply to emit the nth value to put into the nth outgoing tuple 21:02
BBIAB
tailgate ah, I see.
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tailgate is zip by itself lazy? looking at the implemenation in infix Z from List.pm, it uses a gather/take block 21:05
but it also has conditionals on nqp::iscont and is-lazy
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timotimo yeah, zip is lazy 21:24
but zip-latest is also only a method for supplies, zip works on many things
everything in supplies is ... something quite similar to lazy 21:25
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BenGoldberg s: &infix:<Z> 21:37
SourceBaby BenGoldberg, Sauce is at github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/ee8a...t.pm#L1533
BenGoldberg m: gather {}.WHAT.say 21:40
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«(Seq)␤»
BenGoldberg s: Seq, 'lazy-if' 21:41
SourceBaby BenGoldberg, Sauce is at github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/ee8a...ble.pm#L71
grondilu raydiak: u there? 21:44
raydiak: github.com/raydiak/Math-Symbolic/issues/3 21:49
timotimo .seen raydiak 21:52
yoleaux I saw raydiak 18 Jul 2016 11:52Z in #perl6: <raydiak> I was ending up with some barely-a-shadow-of-a-real-regex pattern implementation...more like lua patterns...just so it was all on a level I understood how to work with so I could implement the generative part. then realized how silly it is to write a pattern matching engine in a language which has an incredibly powerful pattern matching engine built in. that's where that project stopped, heh
El_Che Hi, a NativeCall question. If i need to pass a pointer to a pointer to a nativecall function, how do create a pointer-to-a-pointer in the calling perl6 code? In the nativecall part I created this: a C Pointer class: class LibLDAP::Native::LDAP is repr('CPointer') { } 21:54
and this is the function in question: sub ldap_initialize(Pointer[LibLDAP::Native::LDAP], Str) returns int32 is native(l,v) is export { * }
all the other 'C-perl6 bridged' functions work fine as they just require a pointer
(this is an example of a function that works fine (the returned pointer can be passed to other function anddo the correct stuff): sub ldap_init(Str, int32) returns LibLDAP::Native::LDAP is native(l,v) is export { * } 21:56
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grondilu .tell raydiak github.com/raydiak/Math-Symbolic/issues/3 21:57
yoleaux grondilu: I'll pass your message to raydiak.
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El_Che found it! is rw 22:08
:)
I misunderstook the docs as only applying to a native C type 22:09
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grondilu 22:15
TEST
El_Che mic test?
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grondilu nah just realized I was in caps lock, which is why I could not change tmux window. 22:25
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dataangel Does Perl 6 have something like python's pickle module? (Automatically serializes most arbitrary objects) 22:55
ugexe nqp::serialize, but i'm only half serious 22:58
dataangel ugexe: is it similar but has some horrible limitation or...? 22:59
ugexe i'm not sure its documented or meant to be used period yet
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dataangel I see a module I want to use on modules.perl6.org but I'm not sure how. I don't appear to have panda installed, and the github page for panda says I need rakudobrew which I don't appear to have either. Should I just build both from source? Why are there two applications for downloading modules and why does one require the other? 23:09
sena_kun dataangel, rakudobrew is a general script to install rakudo/panda. For example, I don't want to install rakudo every time manually, so I use rakudobrew to automate this process. How did you get rakudo, firstly? Do you use Rakudo Star package or built it by hands? 23:12
ugexe where does pandas github say you need rakudobrew?
it says rakudobrew is the most common way, and then lists the instructions on manual installation 23:13
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dataangel Well I figured I should be doing it the common way is, I mis- paraphrased 23:13
ugexe i was confused because you asked why one required the other, which you seem to understand is not true 23:15
dataangel sena_kun: I built it by hand
I mistakenly thought they were both doing the same thing as panda
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sena_kun dataangel, nope. Building by hands is not really cool, so you can 1)use Rakudo Star distribution which has many packages pre-installed and rakudo built; 2)use rakudobrew to build rakudo and panda to install modules. The first way should be more "user-friendly", but I've never used it, so I can't help you Rakudo Star, sorry. Rakudobrew, though, is a quite handy thing to make things work. 23:19
timotimo m: say -« [1, 2, 3] 23:22
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«[-1 -2 -3]␤» 23:23
timotimo interesting. i didn't know we allow whitespace there
dataangel What is the difference between need and use? Documentation says that use also does an import at compile time... So does that mean I only need to worry about the distinction if I'm doing meta-programming using the module I'm needing/using? 23:25
ugexe rakudobrew could add a command that just acts as a front end to an uninstalled copy of zef to work across all installations, which would then get precompiled for whatever rakudo version when it gets run 23:26
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dataangel p6: use JSON::Tiny; say JSON::Tiny::EXPORT::DEFAULT::.keys; JSON::Tiny::to-json([6, 7]); # why doesn't this work? Complains that it can't find the symbol to-json 23:35
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find JSON::Tiny at line 1 in:␤ /home/camelia/.perl6␤ /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/site␤ /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/vendor␤ /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6␤ CompUnit::Re…»
dataangel Apparently bot doesn't have it installed at all :p 23:36
timotimo dataangel: i think need is use minus import
yeah, you only get some modules when you use "star-m:"
star-m: use JSON::Tiny; say to-json([6, 7]).perl
camelia star-m 2016.04: OUTPUT«"[ 6, 7 ]"␤»
dataangel timotimo: not sure what you mean? 23:37
What the heck is that?
timotimo we have an extra invocation for camelia that'll give you the modules that are part of rakudo star
dataangel Oh I thought you meant a language construct for a second
timotimo nah :)
dataangel Why does it work for her? 23:38
I get: Could not find symbol '&to-json'
23:38 sufrostico joined
dataangel Oh you're not qualifying it 23:38
timotimo aye 23:41
23:43 rburkholder left
dataangel That's interesting because originally I forgot to do the 'use' and got a deprecated function with the same name. So the 'use' just silently overrode the existing function? That seems dangerous if you are using multiple things 23:51
BenGoldberg In perl5, if a module exports a function which the caller has already defined, then there's a redefinition warning. 23:54
m: sub foo { 42 }; sub foo { 43 }; say foo; 23:55
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Redeclaration of routine foo␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3sub foo { 42 }; sub foo { 43 }7⏏5; say foo;␤ expecting any of:␤ horizontal whitespace␤ statement end␤ statement modi…»
BenGoldberg m: sub foo { 42 }; my &foo = sub { 43 }; say foo;
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Redeclaration of symbol &foo␤ at <tmp>:1␤ ------> 3sub foo { 42 }; my &foo7⏏5 = sub { 43 }; say foo;␤43␤»
BenGoldberg m: sub foo { 42 }; local &foo := sub { 43 }; say foo; 23:56
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Cannot use bind operator with this left-hand side␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3sub foo { 42 }; local &foo := sub { 43 }7⏏5; say foo;␤»
BenGoldberg m: sub foo { 42 }; local &foo = sub { 43 }; say foo;
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared routine:␤ local used at line 1 (in Perl 6 please use temp (or dynamic var) instead)␤␤»
BenGoldberg m: sub foo { 42 }; temp &foo = sub { 43 }; say foo;
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«Can only use 'temp' on a container␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
geekosaur the thing is that the deprecated one is not defined in your scope, but in an outer scope (perl 5 only has a very limited notion of scoping) 23:57
it would be nice if there were a pragma to get shadowing warnings though 23:58
ugexe m: module XXX { sub foo() is export { 42 }; }; import XXX; my &foo = sub { 43 }; say foo; 23:59
camelia rakudo-moar ee8a25: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Redeclaration of symbol &foo␤ at <tmp>:1␤ ------> 3is export { 42 }; }; import XXX; my &foo7⏏5 = sub { 43 }; say foo;␤43␤»

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