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Set by Zoffix on 25 July 2018.
00:03 regreg_ left 00:14 molaf left
Geth doc: uzluisf++ created pull request #2373:
Text reflow and minor fixes		 00:18
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Xliff \o 03:18
How can I make a type that encompasses two types?
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Xliff m: constant AB = ::('A') | ::('B'); class A {}; class B {}; my AB $a = A.new; my AB $b = B.new 03:25
camelia Type check failed in assignment to $a; expected Junction but got A (A.new)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
 03:26
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lucs Xliff: Not sure I understand exactly what you're after, but: 03:33
class A {}; class B {}; subset AB of Any where * ~~ A | B;
Xliff I was just about to say I could use subset. 03:34
But can't the any be optional?
lucs Dunno, I just kinda cargo culted that.
Xliff subset AB where A| B
cargo culted?
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lucs exceptionnotfound.net/cargo-cult-p...i-pattern/ 03:35
erana It's also an entry in the new hacker dictionary : cargo cult programming 03:38
Xliff Ah. TIL 03:42
yoleaux 9 Oct 2018 08:43Z <jnthn> Xliff: class FooEvent { has $.result is rw }; my $s = Supplier.new; $s.Supply.tap: { .result = 42 }; given FooEvent.new -> $e { $s.emit($e); say $e.result }
9 Oct 2018 15:22Z <jmerelo> Xliff: thanks
lucs Hmm... I get a 404 when trying to reach the "subset" doc page from docx.perl.org's drop down index... 03:43
(and a lot of other pages too...)
erana Maybe try a google link 03:44
lucs The new layout of the Language page is pretty nice. 03:45
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Xliff Is there a way to capture output of a program like qqx() but still get the error code? 05:19
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moritz yes, with Proc::Async 05:30
Xliff Yeah. Just realized. Thanks, moritz++ 05:45
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El_Che xliff .stdout 06:18
Xliff El_Che: Yeah. I'm using Proc::Async. Thanks. 06:31
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timotimo hello everyone without voice 07:51
we're currently looking for someone to unset +m until the bannerbot (who auto-voices people after a minute) comes back on line
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timotimo thank you, masak! 08:01
masak kowtows
lizmat now the same for #perl6-dev / moarvm , please :-)
masak oki 08:02
lizmat: I did it on #perl6-dev, but not auth'd on #moarvm 08:03
timotimo AlexDaniel: if you're awake, you could op yourself on #moarvm and set -m there
lizmat masak: thanks, I guess jnthn will have to do #moarvm then
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pmurias are 32bit architectures relevant anymore? 08:50
yoleaux 9 Oct 2018 19:57Z <lizmat> pmurias: stackoverflow.com/questions/527272...js-backend
9 Oct 2018 23:37Z <[Coke]> pmurias: - github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/2359 - REPL borked
jast in small/embedded systems 32bit is probably still quite popular. whether that's an important target is a different question, of course... 08:52
timotimo is sitting in front of some assembly code for an 8bit cpu :P
lizmat that brings back memories: doing 8080 assembly :-) 08:53
jast funnest project I've done in recent times is try and match source code to a specific binary build so I could make binary patches
timotimo this one's 8051 compatible
jast I did some 6502 assembly back in the day 08:54
lizmat inside a terminal with ~ 800 bytes of RAM to have your program *and* stack in
jast but does it have a javascript VM? 08:55
timotimo how else are you supposed to cycle hyperlinks through all colors of the rainbow?
jast well this MVVM framework I'm using needs a DOM implementation, can't just run it on the Fabric of the Internet(tm) 08:57
timotimo run your app on the microchips embedded into the ethernet plugs
you know, the ones that control the yellow and green blinking patterns! 08:58
BBL
jast yellow and green is hardly enough for getting all colors of the rainbow, as you said 08:59
Xliff \o 09:18
Is there a way to convert a function signature (for callbacks) to a constant or a subset?
Ala "&h (Pointer, Pointer, Pointer --> uint32)" to a type name? 09:19
You cqan use the "&h..." as a parameter.
s/cqan/can/
erana has made a correlation dimension functionality, statistical chaos theory to use in perl6 games 09:22
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Altreus i don't understand those words but they sound supreme 09:26
erana I'm just implementing a theory for e.g. decision making in perl6 games 09:27
which is statistics
It's from a book I'm reading 09:28
Eventually I'll need an integral/differential package 09:29
but now it's just a la hidden markov models for example, which does not use those
It'll be a third party package, not in the distribution of course 09:30
You can make nethack games with it, but random at init and runtime
using SDL2::Raw for gfx 09:31
Altreus Can I create a Supply.interval that is live rather than the default on-demand one? 09:33
erana eventually
init time are uniform ditributed random vars
then at runtime you generate more
then you calculate things happening faster as in the real world and you upgrade your enemies 09:34
for example
It's based on population arrays of variables and stochastics for now
jnthn Altreus: Not directly but you can .share any on-demand Supply to get a live one 09:35
erana ok
it's preidiction/prospection indeed
s/prei/pre/
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Altreus sweet that work 09:41
erana :-) 09:42
Altreus erana: is it a suite of modules? is it going on cpan? :D 09:43
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erana not sure, if it's good enough but I'll distribute it anyhow e.g. on github 09:44
I have a objc prototype, now I'm doing the perl6 thing
I still need to finish another book which I get in a week, decision theory
which might change tings 09:45
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Altreus are you doing a statistics course? 09:45
erana now I have markov strrategies and so on
no I'm already a programmer, I just study it to put it in games
I've made 17 :-) but not only in perl 09:46
Altreus I wish I'd done a mathematics course
erana now I'm upgrading my adaptive systems
Altreus I'm considering going back to university but it'll be several years before I can afford to
erana sure, math is cool :-)
ah
Altreus that or applied maths i.e. physics
Someone suggested knot theory is a good field with plenty of scope
erana yeah, it's also a basis for my system (as a course) 09:47
I've done years at uni, now I'm doing math things myself 09:48
You can choose to do that, you just need money for books
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erana I've put it online in europe, shameen.ddns.net, not sure you can reach the site 09:51
It needs work though
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erana I'm thinking of making a package for a math (integral/diff) problem solver 10:47
which is better than just another math package 10:48
so you can 'prolog' yourself out of numerical analysis for diffs/integrals
moritz are you aware of the Runge/Kutta integrator in the ecosystem?
erana no
I'll search for packages later on 10:49
it's still in the future
the thing is you cannot describe full differential equations with it, that's why I might make a problem solver wit it 10:54
so you can use a syntax such as LaTeX for example 10:55
hence prolog/progol
moritz erana: github.com/moritz/Math-RungeKutta and perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/physica...lling.html might be of interest
it always depends on what you mean by "full differential equations"
you can express scalar PDEs
erana that should be ok but it does not use a learning algo 10:56
moritz no, it uses 4th-order Runge Kutta iirc 10:57
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erana yeah it should do 10:58
I read it
I need differential eqs for lagrangians 10:59
to support kernel methods, I still need to read that chapter
moritz and for that you need a learning algorithm?
erana I know the SVM (support vector machine) for it
yes 11:00
it's faster
not faster but more software
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erana you solve eqs which can be simplified or the reverse 11:00
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erana not just an integrator to: from: 11:01
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bazzaar 0racle: thanks for your thoughts and guidance re. my Inline::Python/Matplotlib question late yesterday (gist updated : gist.github.com/bazzaar/d143663661...df204f98ec ) 11:13
moritz bazzaar: I don't have any context, but have you seen the Matplotlib examples in Perl 6 Fundamentals? 11:22
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moritz ah, looking at the final gist comment, it seems you have 11:27
bazzaar moritz: I've been leafing through Chapter 12, and that's where I first saw the 'call' method utilising '__builtin__', 'getattr' ..... the book is a great resource, Moritz :) 11:29
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moritz good to hear, thanks :-) 11:42
I'd appreciate a rating on amazon (doesn't need to be a long review) 11:43
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masak how do people usually capitalize their enum values? 11:46
like THIS, like This, or like this?
bazzaar these book recommendations are building up :-), perhaps we could do with a perl6 module to automate the process :-) 11:47
masak the example at docs.perl6.org/language/enumeration seems to prefer the second form (`CanWrite` etc)
the examples in design.perl6.org/S12.html#Enumerations use the second and third forms interchangeably 11:49
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masak a priori, I would say that the all-lowercase form makes sense (if we think of enum values as variables or properties) and the ALL_UPPERCASE form makes sense (if we think of enum values as constants) 11:55
but the (popular) CamelCase form doesn't make sense -- it makes enum values look like a type
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fredolaredo Hi, is there e specific channel for perl6 beginners ? 12:00
masak you're in it
(welcome!)
fredolaredo great, thanks, I didn't want to bother with silly questions
masak please do ;)
fredolaredo what is the difference between pick(1..6) and (1..6).pick , don't have the same result in the perl6 REPL 12:01
masak m: say (1..6).pick 12:02
camelia 4
masak ^ this is what I would use
I'm not familiar with the second form
m: pick(1..6)
camelia ( no output )
masak m: say pick(1..6)
camelia ()
masak m: say pick([1..6])
camelia ()
masak hm
fredolaredo should do the same but the first needs a "say" right ?
lizmat m: pick( 1, 1..6)
camelia ( no output ) 12:03
lizmat m: say pick( 1, 1..6)
camelia (6)
lizmat m: say pick( 1, 1..6)
camelia (6)
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lizmat m: say pick( 1, 1,2,3,4,5,6) 12:03
camelia (4)
lizmat m: say pick( 1, 1,2,3,4,5,6)
camelia (3)
lizmat m: say pick( 1, 1,2,3,4,5,6)
camelia (5)
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lizmat hmm... looks like the +values sig is just taking the number of elements in the range 12:04
masak lizmat: then why does it return () in the first few evals?
lizmat because it doesn't get anything to pick from
fredolaredo ??? 12:05
evalable6 Stub code executed
in block <unit> at /tmp/sdUYfTOaYm line 1
lizmat the first parameter is supposed to be the number of picks you want to do
masak oh!
lizmat and that is taken up by the range I think
masak right, that makes sense
fredolaredo trying in REPL
masak forgot about that N argument :)
lizmat m: sub a($n, +values) { dd $n }; a 1..10
camelia 1..10
masak to be honest, I still don't understand the kind of "DWIM"/leniency in Perl 6 that prefers to return () rather than fail loudly when asked to pick > 0 elements from something empty ;) 12:07
who benefits from that? that's just hiding a logical bug
fredolaredo and how do I specify the N argument in method form ? 12:08
masak m: say (1..10).pick(3)
camelia (10 6 5)
fredolaredo ok thx
lizmat masak: well, blame TimToady way back in 2015 :-) 12:09
masak I'm more interested in understanding than in blame, but OK :)
lizmat but I guess we could make smarter candidates
jnthn m: say (1..3).pick(5)
camelia (3 2 1)
lizmat one that takes a single iterable could be a iterable.pick 12:10
jnthn I think "pick as many as you can, up to 5" isn't such a bad behavior
masak yeah, maybe that's it
lizmat jnthn: it's about the sub version
masak reminds me of the ** {range} discussion we had recently 12:11
lizmat m: dd pick( 1..10)
camelia ()
jnthn And handling an empty list differently creates an edge
masak jnthn: yes, I withdraw my suggestion for strictness
jnthn: "as many as you can" makes sense, and is consistent with some other behavior in ranges, substr, etc
jnthn It's always a tricky one, in that strictness often feels like it might lead us to make more robust things by making potential edge cases blow up so we notice and handle them, but a reasonable default can remove edge cases and lead to a program that does the right thing in a wider range of cases. 12:15
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masak aye 12:15
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masak this one could sensibly be an IntelliJ-like tip such as "this call will always return ()" 12:16
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masak like, are you sure that's what you want because that's a darn funny way to write () 12:16
jnthn Yeah
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lizmat so an extra "multi sub pick(Iterable:D \iterable) { iterable.pick }" would be out of the question ? 12:19
jnthn lizmat: Still pondering. :) 12:20
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jnthn Trying to imagine it making a WAT, but I can't see an obvious one 12:22
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jast just add more javascript :-) 12:22
Zoffix m: dd join 1..10 12:23
camelia ""
Zoffix m: dd comb "abc"
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Calling comb(Str) will never work with signature of the proto ($, $, $?, *%)
at <tmp>:1
------> 3dd 7⏏5comb "abc"
Zoffix m: dd grep 1..10
camelia ().Seq
Zoffix There are tons of routines that don't do any magic in the same case 12:24
jnthn m: say min 1..10
camelia 1
Zoffix m: dd first 1..10
camelia Nil
jnthn There's also some counter-examples
Like min and max
Zoffix Does `min` take an argument saying how min/max?
jnthn m: say &min.candidates 12:25
camelia (&min &min)
jnthn m: say &min.candidates>>.signature
camelia ((+ is raw, :&by!) (+ is raw))
jnthn Yes, but with a named arg
Zoffix Ah, yeah, R#2033 12:26
synopsebot R#2033 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/2033 [audit entire codebase for such issues][consistency] Inconsistency: &max take `:&by` but .max takes `&by`
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[particle] MINI is excited to announce a partnership with Rapha, a cycling apparel company, to offer exclusive perks to both MINI Owners and Rapha members.  12:52
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[particle] lol 12:52
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[particle] ww 12:53
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masak [particle]: are you one of those spambots freenode warned me about? 12:55
[particle] :P no, just a puny, careless human 12:56
wrong window.
masak feels a sudden inexplicable craving for cycling apparel 12:57
[particle] that brand has a rabid following in certain parts, i find the link to an urban commuter car company humorous 12:59
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[particle] anyhow, back to perl6ing! 12:59
masak "and now a word from our sponsor, Rapha..." 13:00
since we're talking about nothing in particular anyway, you know what the most humorous thing I've found lately about any language is? 13:02
timotimo please, go ahead
masak in JavaScript, `null` is a keyword
but
`undefined` is not
instead, it's a *global variable* whose default value just happens to be the value `undefined` 13:03
like, I... it's...
wh...
tyil 03>javascript
found your issue
masak tyil: it's not possible to bash JavaScript these days without also acknowledging that it has practically taken over the world while we weren't looking 13:04
tyil I can bash it just fine without praising its popularity
mostly because I dont think popularity has anything to do with quality
masak it doesn't 13:05
tyil see javascript and windows for example
masak it's popular because it's the language browsers run
tyil I am aware of this
not sure what you're trying to tell me
masak what I mean is that it's not realistic to try to ignore or avoid JavaScript anymore
tyil oh, but it is, I still block js by default
I prefer a fast web, without malware at every corner 13:06
masak oh, that's fine, and your perogative
but also not what I meant :)
tyil peoply trying to say that one cannot live without javascript are silly
masak I mean something like, there's a reason rakudo just got a js backend
tyil because someone wanted to make it?
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masak I guess my main point is the same as in Eich's "always bet on JS" slide 13:07
tyil I am not aware of that
tyil shrugs
I'd prefer if people would stop this silly "b-but you cant live without js" joke already 13:08
masak again, that was not my point
tyil it hasn't improved the web in a decade, and it wont start becoming good anytime soon
masak I'm glad purists like you still exist. you fill an important purpose in the ecosystem 13:09
[particle] welcome to #perl6, the channel where everything is made up, and the points don't matter.
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tyil ? 13:09
masak [particle]: that sounded like a quote from somewhere :)
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tyil there's still no point that I've seen, only some vague references that I pointed out I'm not familiar with 13:10
[particle] knowyourmeme.com/memes/whose-line-is-it-anyway
masak oh!
tyil: anyway, you managed to derail my point about a specific feature about JavaScript by explaining how you never run JavaScript in your browser... 13:11
tyil ok
masak I'm curious how `undefined` ended up an identifier, not a keyword
tyil lack of good design, probably
masak or s/good //
tyil fair
masak I also think, in all honesty, that ES6 is a much nicer language, and much closer to (say) Perl 6, than ES3 is 13:14
tyil does it have actual ints yet or is it still all floats? 13:15
masak BigInt is stage 3
Xliff You know... we just need to make a really fast, nice browser that uses both JS and Perl6 as scripting languages. 13:16
Then just let it loose on the woild.
Here's a question.... will the JVM backend allow you to NativeCall jars?
timotimo no, nativecall is strictly for C. you can, however, just :from<Java> the jars 13:17
"just" 13:18
something something classpath something
Xliff HAH!
Will that be available for Moar, in the future?
masak will what be available for Moar?
timotimo you can nativecall into jni or what it's called
that lets you run java code 13:19
Xliff Oh!
OK.
masak: I was trying to see if the JVM backend would be able to run Jars.
timotimo i.e. you'd run your java as if you were a C or C++ program
Xliff Right, so you'd have to wrap your Java code via jni.
timotimo tbh i have no clue about jni 13:20
jast makes sense if you're not running within the JVM
gotta wrap _something_ around it :)
Xliff jast: LOL!
jast you could build a bridge that is parts java and parts perl6, I guess that would make it dual-wrapping? 13:21
Xliff Well.... sorta.
Actually... now that I think about it.... yes. 13:22
timotimo put a TCP or unix domain socket or shared memory in between
Xliff ( (JAR -> JNI) -> NativeCall) -> Perl6
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jast yeah, that was the idea when I said "bridge" 13:22
timotimo ah, that's what i expected
jast but I'd use a pair of XML pipes 13:23
timotimo sure
especially on CPUs with native XML support %)
Xliff jast: Yeah. Better to use multi-process, if you can.
jast has the added advantage of being able to filter your java interface with XSLT and all them other goodies
Xliff Talk over a socket. Use JSON, SOAP, etc.
jast XML-RPC over SOAP
Xliff Yeah
jast now we're getting somewhere
Xliff But for application logic? Stand alone machine? Airgapped? 13:24
jast if all else fails you can have multiple systems communicate via cover sheets of TPS reports compiled by employees 13:25
well, anyway. interfacing between things like java and perl6 isn't going to be all that efficient no matter what you do, so might as well be as interoperable as you can 13:26
(where here, in a leap of laziness, perl6 stands for any impl that doesn't run on the JVM) 13:27
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pmurias tyil: the JavaScript in Chrome has BigInts 13:32
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tyil pmurias: it's a start 13:34
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tyil I try not to use Chrome because it's not a sane browser, but js finally learning that ints are real things is good 13:34
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pmurias tyil: Chrome derivatives will have it soon, and Firefox is working on them 13:35
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pmurias tyil: I'm not sure the main purpose of js nowadays it to make the web better (in the sense of it being a collection of documents), it's mostly turning it into an application platform 13:44
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tyil it's turning the web into a badly designed, malware-ridden, slow and bloated pile of junk in my experience :( 13:45
timotimo just wait until drivers for usb devices come as electron apps with webUSB 13:46
tyil shivers
the sad part is, I can totally see it happen :(
timotimo should be easy to reverse-engineer usb drivers when they're written in javascript 13:48
compared to disassembling some C compiler's output
tyil then they find a way to transpile it 38 times so its neigh impossible to ever read the original source 13:49
timotimo though of course javascript also usually goes through at least one compiler nowadays
tyil and bundle a couple dozen trackers into it
timotimo there's a windows driver for ps3 controllers
it comes with a little app that you need to use to connect and configure the devices
it has ads in it
tyil I am not surprised
timotimo there's an open source program that communicates with the same kernel driver as this program, but isn't ... shit 13:50
tyil xbox controller seemed to just work on stream on gnu+linux
timotimo yeah, controllers on linux are pretty good
i recently tried the user-space driver for joycons. it wasn't bad. IIRC it was written in go? 13:51
tyil I'm waiting for drivers to be written in Perl 6 :p
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candr I have a sub signature with ( Hash %updates ) and I pass it a Hash, verified with dd(), but get the error: Type check failed in binding to parameter '%updates'; expected Associative[Hash] but got Hash. Anyone know what is going on? Should I constrain the type with something less specific like a role? 13:51
timotimo i think you can "speak" evdev by just printing to a node in /dev or so?
candr: "Hash %updates" means "a hash of Hash" 13:52
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timotimo you want just "%updates" instead 13:52
m: sub test(%updates is Hash) { dd %updates }; test(Map.new("a", 1, "b", 2));
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Can't use unknown trait 'is ' in a parameter declaration.
at <tmp>:1
expecting any of:
rw
readonly
copy
required
raw
leading_docs
…
timotimo well, that's not how you do that
candr Oh... whoops
timotimo if you want it to be constrained to Hash rather than just Associative, you'd have to use $ sigil 13:53
candr would ( Hash $updates ) by the same as ( %updates )?
timotimo with Associative you can also have Map, which isn't read-write
not exactly the same
candr i see
tyil candr: for most practical reasons, it's same enough :p
it depends on what you want to achieve
timotimo world peace? 13:54
pmurias tyil: that's what modern application platforms are ;)
tyil then I'd suggest doing %updates
pmurias: js-based crap is a whole new level of garbage tho 13:55
jast I was this >< close to making an inflammatory joke about world peace :)
candr the % sigil of for the associative role then?
timotimo that's right
@ is for Positional
candr ok
thanks! very helpful! 13:56
jast tyil: I think most people in the know will agree that it's bloat-ridden... but also nobody is solving the problem
timotimo can you put "is rw" on a %foo parameter btw?
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tyil jast: not using it solves a large chunk of it 13:57
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tyil and not reminding everyone that you shouldn't forget js whenever you're doing *anything* isn't going to help humanity progress past it either 13:57
jast I'm not really in a position where I can not use it
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jast all I can do is not write code for it 13:58
tyil same at work, sadly
my own blog works without js tho
jast which is comparably easy since I do backend development... but our frontend team does increase the JS footprint
tyil disabling js will not introduce any issues while using the site
which is how it was intended to be used
jast we're currently replacing all backend components that were written in JS 13:59
tyil at least my company doesnt throw in a couple dozen tracking engines and ad malware
and it's not electron based either
jast we essentially sell web chat widgets for websites... and for people who don't have javascript chat is close to impossible to implement decently on a website, so no loss if you have JS turned off
tyil so most of the harmful parts of js are not used
using js sanely, as an upgrade, without breaking the website for people who dont like js, isn't too big of an issue 14:00
silly people will get all the silly stuff they seem to love for silly reasons
jast yeah, breaking essentially static websites with JS is one of my big pet peeves, too
tyil using 100mb to render a 1kb text file is what triggers me 14:01
and the tremendous privacy invading and malware spreading stuff as well
jast yeah, at least most websites still work if you filter that out... the really bad ones actively break their site if you filter 14:02
tyil I've made a shortcut to solve that issue
it's ^w in my browser
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jast that's funny, I have the same shortcut 14:02
tyil lb 67
wops
jast #perl6 is now shutting down 14:03
tyil (I actually dislike the ^w default shortcut, as it closes tabs when I try to delete a word)
shmup i thought the joke was that it closes
and that does solve the issue
jast yeah, I find that quite annoying, too
though many times "undo close tab" will rescue me 14:04
tyil same
^T
jast in firefox I have the hidden option enabled to keep the window open when the last tab closes
tyil its not that common for me, I've learned to live with it 14:05
also it doesnt happen often that I close my last tab
I generally have a couple hundred of those things open
jast I aggressively prune tabs
tyil at one of my previous jobs a colleagua asked me to install one of those tab count addons (that display the number of open tabs) 14:06
and it clocked in at 2.4k
then I did prune some tabs
(there's also no good addon to deal with tree style tabs anymore in firefox, so I would've had to downscalel ater anyway)
jast it's actual dual pruning: closing a tab means I'm dismissing the topic, too 14:07
tree style tabs still exists in firefox and it's not completely useless
except to me because I prune too much :)
but obviously some of its benefits went away with the move to WebExtensions
tyil Ive tried the new one 14:08
timotimo what is WebExtensions?
tyil the webextension one
jast see, mozilla *is* doing something to clean up the JS world! :-)
tyil but because js is utter crap to do anything right
it took 100% of a cpu core to scroll through the list
I would drain more battery scrolling through the list than opening and reading an article
jast timotimo: new API that replaces direct access to XUL/XPCOM in mozilla/firefox extensions
basically gives the extension mechanism more control over what extensions can do
from the extension developer's POV it means less features (which they'll allegedly add back in over time) 14:09
tyil allegedly is a good word to put in there, yes :p
timotimo how do you two feel about the initiative to do dns through https?
jast I'm guessing the slowdown is because it used to be XUL and now it's HTML/DOM
tyil timotimo: stupid to say it in kind words 14:10
jast DNS through HTTPS: just webshit things
that's the less kind words
tyil throwing everything over http(s) is a silly thing that mediocre js devs use because they got no clue on how to design anything right
http(s) is not a cure-all for every protocol, and shouldn't be seen nor used as such
jast also I still don't think virtually criminalizing non-S HTTP is a great idea 14:11
tyil I'm torn on that
on the one hand, I think we should promote secury variants of protocols
on the other, the current CA system is crap
jast admittedly I mainly care about it in local networks where signing things is just aggravatingly complicated 14:12
yeah, that's the other thing
tyil internally, I think it matters a lot less, but it mostly depends on what you're doing
jast I'd definitely prefer a pinned pubkey in DNSSEC if anyone actually supported it
s/any/every/
tyil if your "internally" is a high security environment, then you should look into encrypted internal connections as well 14:13
if "internally" is "my home network that is not accessible from the outside"
eh, just http is fine, and less of a hassle
jast yeah, and if it's not I'm looking forward to browsers showing me an error page each time I want to look at my home network's status page
tyil tfw my desktop at home has a webserver running 14:14
it does https only for connections from the outside
but internally it does http
because you cant get a cert for an IP
jast either way I'd really appreciate not having to deal with the TLS certification nonsense
I doubt that will stop browser vendors from preventing you from accessing it (without jumping through tiny hoops) in a year's time or so
127.0.0.1:8080/ THIS PAGE IS INSECURE AND YOU CAN'T VIEW IT except if you open developer tools and type (new console.developerSecurityInterface.TLS)().promptConfirm().then(x => x.overrideInsecure(console.developerSecurityInterface.TLS.UNENCRYPTED, console.developerSecurityInterface.TLS.local)) 14:17
(example made up but who knows...)
tyil oh yeah, I've seen that happening too 14:18
browsers refusing to load a non-standard port
pmurias teaching users to open developer tools is the last thing browser vendors want
jast and yet that's what you have to do in chrome already, to override invalid certs
tyil browser vendors dont want to make good browsers anymore
jast for some types of invalid certs, anyway
you have to open developer tools, security tab, certificate, view, something something (which is also the only way to look at the cert details) 14:19
oh, never mind, they added details back in, it's less hidden now
so the types of bad certs you currently can't easily override in chrome are revoked certs and certs that violate key pinning 14:22
also ciphers that are too weak 14:23
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AlexDaniel “Let's wait until there is actually another Perl 6 implementation to worry about ambiguity” 14:51
hehe
and then what, change the alias? :D
from www.reddit.com/r/perl6/comments/9m...me/e7i37az 14:52
Juerd I'm assuming that part of waiting is also that the "then what" is delayed until it's actually relevant
AlexDaniel this makes no sense whatsoever 14:53
Juerd Really? I think I agree with the post. 14:54
Naming doesn't have to deal with hypothetical future circumstances. It can, but it doesn't have to. 14:55
AlexDaniel of course future circumstances should be considered, that's what makes the name good
especially considering that we already had different implementations in the past 14:56
and we have another implementation *even now*
it's not public, but it exists
pmurias AlexDaniel: fanlang is not a Perl 6
AlexDaniel pmurias: what is it then? 14:57
Juerd There are so many languages where the executable, the runtime, and the language all share the same name. That shouldn't stop anyone from creating alternative implementations.
AlexDaniel “Our Perl 6 dialect, fanlang, can now do an arith expr calculator”
pmurias AlexDaniel: it's a spin-off 14:58
AlexDaniel twitter.com/agentzh/status/826922812099043328 14:59
that looks like perl 6 to me
pmurias AlexDaniel: it has a base in Perl 6 but it doesn't implement everything and adds it's own alternativs
* alternatives
AlexDaniel surely every implementation can be different in their own way
rakudo on jvm also doesn't implement everything
so it's not perl 6?
pmurias it's partial Perl 6 15:00
AlexDaniel and rakudo implements stuff that is not part of the spec
don't know if r-j has any extra functionality that's not in r-m, but does that really matter?
pmurias yes 15:01
AlexDaniel :S
pmurias it has alternatives
so instead of grammars they have their own PEG derived syntax
AlexDaniel this is just weird. First people say that other implementations is just a hypothetical future, then when presented with an actual different perl 6 implementation they say that it's not perl 6 because it implements something differently 15:05
Juerd Different people :)
AlexDaniel how far would the goalpost move I have no idea
Juerd IIRC with the current definitions it's simple: it's Perl 6 if it passes roast
AlexDaniel Juerd: define “passes roast” 15:06
there are fudges, for example
so if it doesn't implement a bunch of stuff, and has fudges for these tests, does it pass roast?
Juerd Yes. This might imply that none of the dialects out there is actually Perl 6
AlexDaniel that's the case with r-j
ok nice so even rakudo-moar is not perl 6, awesome 15:07
Juerd Well, if it isn't Perl 6 then we don't need any alias ;)
AlexDaniel on the other hand, you shouldn't call it Perl 6 then :P
pmurias AlexDaniel: is Perl 5 a Perl 6? 15:08
Juerd According to practically everyone in the Dutch hacker scene, Perl is dead. I can't seem to "sell" Perl 6, because it's Perl. 15:09
AlexDaniel pmurias: no, and afaik it doesn't even attempt to be it
unlike fanlang
Juerd I wish to use Perl 6 (or whatever its name will turn out to be) in a paid job in the future, and for that I need it to be popular. 15:10
pmurias AlexDaniel: fanlang doesn't attempt to pass roast
Juerd I really don't really care about the exact semantics of how this is going to happen, and whether that is technically or historically correct.
pmurias AlexDaniel: it adds it's own syntax
Objective C isn't C++ 15:11
Juerd For purely practical reasons I want the thing we currently call Perl 6 to not be Perl.
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Juerd More irrationally, I'd rather have people love Perl 5 and Perl 6. 15:11
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scimon Is the fact that sub MAIN( :@a ) {} can't handle a single named parameter an bug of a feature? 15:17
tony-o re: bsd - rakudo builds fine on freebsd
jmerelo m: sub MAIN( :@a ) {}
camelia ( no output )
jmerelo scimon: maybe because it's an array?
tyil Juerd: or find a nice boss 15:18
if your boss thing popularity == quality, then you've probably encountered a shitty boss
s/thing/thinks
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pmurias tyil: popularity often is more important than quality 15:23
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scimon So perl6 -e 'sub MAIN( :@a ) { say @a.perl }' -a=1 -a=2 will give [IntStr.new(1, "1"), IntStr.new(2, "2")] 15:27
pmurias tyil: also makes it possible to find an existing Perl 6 job rather than start a Perl 6 project in an language agnostic company
scimon But call it with -a=1 only and you get an error.
Usage:
-e '...' [-a=<Positional>]
tony-o scimon: if you want one or more then use $, @ implicates that you want at least two 15:28
s/implicate/implies/ 15:29
araraloren scimon If you want using option like that, maybe you can consider my module Getopt::Advance :)
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scimon I guess. I'm mostly trying to understand the current functionality :) 15:31
ilmari would have thought $a meant one, and @a meant zero or more
scimon araraloren: I have to admit I've had a look at it and I'm at a loss for how to use it. Sorry.
araraloren okay, I see
tony-o scimon: the same MAIN (:$a) { } signature will take multiple -a=5 -a=6
scimon I know.
(Sorry I'm writing docs for a talk tomorrow so I'm trying to nail these things down) 15:32
tony-o oh
scimon And I agree with ilmari that I would expect @a to match 1 item (or zero) arrays can have less than 2 items in.
araraloren Just like the sample, and you can let the module generate help message for u, scimon
scimon I'll document it as it stands. 15:33
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tony-o i do too, thought you were just trying to get past a problem (rather than documenting) 15:36
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scimon Also "is hidden-from-USAGE" is this one of those Rakudo only things? 15:37
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scimon Because it's sure not documented but it's kinda cool. 15:38
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tyil pmurias: you need to start a perl 6 project before you can say "we have a perl 6 project we're looking for devs for" 15:39
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tyil if you'd always make new projects with the current popular language you're not going to get any new langs, ever 15:39
you need a boss that's looking at the quality from time to time, instead of the popularity
they dont just pop in existence through sheer willpower 15:40
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scimon (I'm working on it. :) ) 15:40
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pmurias tyil: I assume a lot of the early adopters choose their technologies because they are fun/cool instead of for commerical/practical reasons 16:00
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blork hi. if i coded a useful TTY or CLI util in P6 and want to bundle it for friends on, say, macOS ... is there a preferred (or possible) way to do this, without the first step being "please install Perl 6" ? 16:18
timotimo we have that for windows in a module called App::InstallerMaker::WiX, but i know of nothing in particular for macOS
though docker is always a possibility 16:19
buggable New CPAN upload: Math-FFT-Libfftw3-0.0.1.tar.gz by FRITH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/F/FR/...0.1.tar.gz 16:20
blork interesting. yeah i guess a container could be a fallback. thx timotimo. 16:21
timotimo especially for console/tty programs, though of course docker is still pretty "heavyweight" even though we have docker images for rakuto based on alpine linux 16:22
blork lol i just thought of this ... self-contained P6 -> JS bundle of some sort, runnable in any browser. (i've heard this may be possible, or soon.) 16:23
jmerelo blork: remember Docker is CPU architecture and kernel specific. You can't run a Linux container on Windows unless you have a Linux virtual machine running containerd
blork precludes local file manipulation, etc. so a whole class of applications not possible. but interesting.
jmerelo blork: that's what happens under the hood in macOSX, so you're good to ghere.
tyil I thought windows finally caught up with docker 16:24
El_Che jmerelo: the same happens on Windows
tyil and does something similar nowadays
jmerelo blork: a PoC of that was just released. So you're almost good to go.
blork jmerelo: thx. yes. and it will be too heavyweight for CLI and small things anyways, as timotimo says.
jmerelo tyil: yep, but again, containers are kernel-specific. Containers can only run in the architecture you've got your daemon running. If the daemon is windows native, you can only run windows containers. 16:25
El_Che it works like thta on Windows from solewhere in 2016
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El_Che windows versions with hyperv 16:26
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blork okay, scratch containers. unless it needed to be a GUI/SDL/etc. i suppose "please install Perl 6" (homebrew or DMG) isn't a terrible 1st step for my recipients. 16:26
timotimo was just now touching one of his SDL programs again 16:27
jmerelo blork: definitely better than installing Docker...
blork lol, yes. omg 100x yes. :-)
El_Che blork: it should be ok if they use homebrew 16:28
blork yeah, i don't cringe too hard asking non-tech friends on macOS to install homebrew. it's really quite lovely. 16:29
buggable New CPAN upload: Math-FFT-Libfftw3-0.0.2.tar.gz by FRITH cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/F/FR/...0.2.tar.gz 16:30
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El_Che but deployment is not yet as nice as it could be, indeed 16:34
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jmerelo May I draw your attention to this issue? it's about indexing Python (and other) functions in the documentation github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2355 16:44
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jmerelo Please vote on the subject, I'll be closing the poll in a few hours. You've got arguments for and against in the comments and linked by AlexDaniel 16:44
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lizmat weekly: news.perlfoundation.org/2018/10/gra...-comp.html 16:50
notable6 lizmat, Noted!
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El_Che indexing python? weird :) 16:57
jmerelo El_Che: right? 16:58
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buggable New CPAN upload: Sparrowdo-VSTS-YAML-Cordova-0.0.15.tar.gz by MELEZHIK modules.perl6.org/dist/Sparrowdo::V...n:MELEZHIK 17:10
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SmokeMachine (it would be great if the channel logs were saved on a elastic search and we had a kibana to search in it) 18:13
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uzl What happened with the Language page layout? It looked really neat and structured. 18:26
yoleaux 8 Oct 2018 06:09Z <jmerelo> uzl: I don't have much time for translations. There's a small, but enthusiastic, Perl Spanish translation team that would probably be willing to help, anyway.
8 Oct 2018 06:10Z <jmerelo> uzl: I can take a look anyway.
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Demos[m] how can I have a multi-file module without using 6.d? 18:34
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timotimo Demos[m]: i'm not sure i understand the question 18:41
what's keeping you from using a multi-file module at the moment?
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Demos[m] lemme post a gist 18:43
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Demos[m] gist.github.com/barcharcraz/0e0ba8...ee1573fe1c 18:45
uzl .tell jmerelo They're welcome to take a look at it. uzluisf.gitlab.io/piensaperl6/ <- gitlab page which also has a link to the repo.
yoleaux uzl: I'll pass your message to jmerelo.
Demos[m] so like I want to be able to import stuff from a bunch of files with one use statement 18:46
I know in 6.d I can have "use Base::Test :ALL :EXPORT" in Base.pm6
but that doesn't work in 6.c
timotimo oh, i didn't even know about that 18:48
though maybe it works if you put , in between?
Demos[m] nope 18:49
timotimo huh
Demos[m] well it would probably work in 6.d
moritz I don't think so
Demos[m] but like, how can I do what I want, which is to have something like re-exporting
moritz it's been speculated about all along
so if somebody had implemented it, they wouldn't have bothered putting it behind the 6.d firewall 18:50
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Demos[m] it could be that it just doesn't work in the perl6 that's in f28 18:51
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Demos[m] but I want to support f28 18:51
is this just like, not possible?
seems like somewhat of a big deal
moritz only somewhat :-) 18:52
you could try to implement it if it's important to you
SmokeMachine Demos[m]: I'm reexporting stuff like this: github.com/FCO/Red/blob/master/lib/Red.pm6 18:53
Demos[m] that's just what I need
there's even a test for re-exporting in roast 18:55
but it looks like rakudo doesn't run it???
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timotimo it could either be fudged, like with #todo or #skip, or it could be missing from spectest.data 19:01
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Demos[m] it's missing from spectest.data 19:03
is that a bug? should I fix that
OK going through Base::Test::foo works, even if foo is not exported and I don't use :EXPORT?? 19:05
and even if Test.pm6 is unit module Base::Test
is that intended? 19:06
moritz is foo declared as our?
Demos[m] yes
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Demos[m] that seems transitive, which is common, but not what I was expecting based on the perl6 docs 19:07
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moritz "our" means it's accessible through the namespace 19:09
if you don't want that, use "my" instead
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Demos[m] what if I want it accessable through the namespace from Base.pm6 but not from importers of Base.pm6 19:10
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moritz either it's available or not 19:11
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tony-o pmurias: how can i build rakudo on js ? 19:59
is that in one of those files that i'm not seeing?
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timotimo i think you jus tput --backend=js in Configure.pl 20:00
[Coke] perl Configure.pl --gen-nqp --gen-moar --backends=moar,js 20:01
tony-o is this only on the `js` branch?
timotimo hasn't it been merged recently? 20:02
lizmat yes, it has been merged
don't you two read the Perl 6 Weekly ?
p6weekly.wordpress.com/2018/10/08/...ed-the-js/ :-)
tony-o ahh i see
no i'm just a bozo
timotimo tony-ozo? 20:03
tony-o haha
Geth doc: efffe6e579 | Coke++ | doc/Language/modules.pod6
can't use normal flow because of finicky links test.
doc: 7e9a41825b | Coke++ | doc/Language/intro.pod6
whitespace
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/modules
Link: doc.perl6.org/language/intro
tony-o my git pull failed and didn't notice it
tyil !notable www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/9...s/e7j5gzd/ 20:19
w-where's notable :(
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tony-o lol: www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/9...s/e7j26gw/ 20:20
also not a fan of SO 20:22
tyil it usually gets my questions answered, so it serves its purpose for me 20:23
its generally a better way to pose questions than irc, when the question requires some context 20:24
and faster response times than the ML
tony-o i find a gist or repo to be nicer for providing context to questions in irc..my experience with SO was it mostly looked like a gamification of answering questions and in doing that a lot of people answer questions with a 'make it work so i can get imaginary points', i haven't looked at it much in the last 3 or 4 years though 20:27
tyil I think it helps that most of my questions are Perl 6 related, and the Perl 6 community is by far the friendliest I've been in 20:28
many web centric communities are just very toxic in general
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jnthn From my experience of the two, a reddit post calling stack overflow toxic feels like a case of the pot calling the kettle black. :-) 20:35
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Demos[m] heh yeah 20:39
tony-o jnthn++ 20:48
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ilmari jnthn: what's HN then? the pan? 20:55
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shmup it's all noise you dont need 20:56
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shmup and to call the perl6 the friendliest community youve been in, is a very reddit sort of comment 20:56
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shmup i hate communities mostly because of the circlejerking 20:57
tyil shmup: or it might've been true ;) 21:04
pyrimidine tyil++
shmup it could be tyil
tyil after a decade on irc, I've been in many, many channels across many networks, and most programming or distro related channels haven't been the most friendly of places 21:05
and I can easily say I've been on the unfriendly side in those channels plenty of times
though I can also say that not every engagement in here has been friendly, nor do I expect it to be, but in general, I've had very few problems in here 21:07
Kaiepi i don't think of perl6 as a circlejerk 21:28
people aren't afraid to shit on your bad code in a nice way and that's a good thing 21:29
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[Coke] Or on your language. Maybe we can come up with a better word than c*j*. 21:34
timotimo feedback loop of enthusiasm
oh
Feedback Loop Of Positivity, or in short: FLOP
surely nothing else has the acronym FLOP already 21:35
tony-o nine is usually the one inflaming things in here (lol :-p) 21:38
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[Coke] timotimo++ 21:39
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timotimo now i wonder, is he inflammable or is he flammable? 21:43
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