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Set by Zoffix on 25 July 2018.
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Elronnd is it possible to call into perl6 functions from c? 02:29
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moritz yes, that's what Inline::Perl6 does 08:33
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chee is there somewhere i can read the motivation behind the design decision of perl 6's `use` lookup, and why it is the way it is instead of something like file paths 08:38
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Geth doc: 76c40f7361 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/control.pod6
Reindexes with orwith without

Also some rephrasing here and there. Closes #2633 Apparently the problem was it was indexing from a secondary page and creating a tertiary page. Indexing is always mysterious.		 08:40
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/control
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kybr i was looing into "no strict" and i noticed that sigilless variables don't work. is that because that work has not been done or because there's some good reason not to allow it. 10:51
moritz kybr: it can't work 10:58
the long answer is that Perl 6 uses a predictive parser, so it always knows whether to expect a term or an operator 10:59
when it parses an identifier (without a sigil in front), it looks into its symbol table. If it's a known term (like a type or a constant), it expects an operator; otherwise, it assumes it's a function name, and expects a term 11:00
so, if you write newname = 42, and newname hasn't been declared before, perl 6 *has* to parse `newname` as a function call, turing the = after it immediately into a syntax error 11:01
there might be ways to fudge around that, but IMHO they are not worth it making the language much more complicated, for a such rarely-used feature such as "no strict"
s/turing/turning/
kybr moritz: thanks. 11:05
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discord6 <Vendethiel> moritz: immediately into a syntax error? What if the function returns a container? :P 11:23
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kybr i'm working more with uncode text and i notice that different terminals, editors, ... environments exhibit odd behaviour whensing unicode characters. moving the cursor over some characters changes their appearance, deleting some characters takes a couple keystrokes (not just one). characters have varying widths, so in a monospace context like most source code, they sometimes overlap with other characters. 11:29
there's more. i'm sure you'all know what i'm talking about. what's the story? is there somewhere i can read abou this stuff?
lizmat kybr: you could consider using a Perl 6 IDE like commaide.com 11:36
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moritz Vendethiel: if a function returns a container, you have to assign to it as fun() = ...; (parens are important here to unconfuse the parser) 11:47
discord6 <Vendethiel> Alright :) 11:51
kybr lizmat: interesting. thanks. i was wondering how one would do things like code completion with a language like perl6.... you'd need a parser for broken perl6! 11:55
it looks like it's 135/year to even try it.
lizmat kybr: don't despair... the free community edition is to be released soon, if I understand jnthn correctly 11:56
sena_kun kybr, community version will be released "soon"(well, reiavitely) which will be free as a beer. If you will like it, you can sponsor it. :) 11:57
*relatively
kybr i'm excited. thanks.
sena_kun I hope we will make it this month, but cannot promise. 11:58
El_Che sena_kun: keep up the good work. 12:05
I wonder what will be in the free edition and what in de complete one
sena_kun El_Che, thanks! Cool major features come for the next release. :)
El_Che the question "Why is the parser based on the Perl 6 grammar rather than being the Perl 6 grammar itself?" in the faq looks promising
"Finally, we don't try to run `BEGIN`-time code, which a real Perl 6 parser would." 12:06
sena_kun re features set: well, it's yet to be decided.
El_Che Is this a intelliJ-java thing of a separate process? (eg available to vim)
like the road MS is taking
the language server thing
sena_kun hmm, what? 12:07
everything is intellij-based, so it's java.
and cannot be really adapted well to other editors.
El_Che sena_kun: some program use a standalone server where the client can send stuff for validation: langserver.org/ 12:08
chee a really good perl6 language server would be so great. 12:09
sena_kun El_Che, no, Comma is a thing in itself, so no "scallability" of this sort. 12:10
at least with current plans I am aware of.
El_Che sena_kun: yeah, I get that, I use IntelliJ myself. But you never know the design choices that were made for a new product 12:11
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El_Che sena_kun: anyway, looking fwd to it 12:27
sena_kun \o/
I also should start designing means for Cro::LDAP, but just too tired with things now, so it moves further into late March or something like that. :( 12:29
timotimo having seen what the intellij code offers in terms of "you don't have to build everything yourself", it'd be a *lot* of work to take what comma has and turn it into a language server
unless of course you take a whole intellij idea and just make the GUI invisible
which IIRC is how the eclipse-emacs thing works?
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El_Che sena_kun: Cro::LDAP? 12:39
a client?
sena_kun a protocol.
I suspect client will be there too, along with means to plug-in a server.
El_Che net::ldap is a big miss in perl6 12:40
that would be great
sena_kun github.com/Altai-man/cro-ldap <- currently, only types are implemented(not counting grammars that have to be written) and github.com/Altai-man/cro-ldap/blob...01-basic.t works.
El_Che, you may be not, but I remember I can ping you if help with e.g. usage patterns will be needed. ;) 12:41
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El_Che sena_kun: sure 12:55
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jmerelo Hi again 12:56
yoleaux 23 Feb 2019 13:21Z <AlexDaniel> jmerelo: I renamed “Blocker” label in the doc repo to “Top Priority” so that we don't get that confused with rakudo release process
jmerelo .tell AlexDaniel no problem.
yoleaux jmerelo: I'll pass your message to AlexDaniel.
sena_kun jmerelo, o/
jmerelo Hi, sena_kun
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jmerelo releasable6: status 13:03
releasable6 jmerelo, Next release will happen when it's ready. 3 blockers. 262 out of 313 commits logged
jmerelo, Details: gist.github.com/dbdec862ad8d93d13a...34043af9c9
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AlexDaniel . 13:48
yoleaux 12:56Z <jmerelo> AlexDaniel: no problem.
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kybr so, i look forward to trying Comma IDE, but i would still like to know more about difficulties with unicode in code editors and terminals (i posted aabout it earlier). 14:47
MasterDuke kybr: difficulties in general, or with perl6 in particular? 14:49
AlexDaniel kybr: which text editors and editors are we talking about exactly?
MasterDuke docs.perl6.org/language/unicode_entry has some info about how to enter unicode characters into different editors 14:51
AlexDaniel kybr: oops, “and terminals” I meant
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kybr generally. it comes up because i'm working with unicode because i'm using perl6, but i've seen it before. iTerm2+vim, hyper.is+vim, chrome+codemirror.. it each case, i'm using a monospace font. i see characteers overlap, backspace sometimes does not delete a character, moving the cursor will change how a character is rendered 14:53
i looked though this: www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/unicode.html 14:54
AlexDaniel kybr: is backspace not deleting a character only an issue with skin toned emojis and other multi codepoint graphemes? 14:55
nine Finally, after years of fretting about the API, Inline::Perl5 supports calling P5 methods in scalar context!
And it turned out to be surprisingly OK: $p5obj.foo(Scalar, "foo", "bar") 14:56
MasterDuke kde just recently fixed a bug with displaying wide glyphs in konsole bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=401298 14:57
El_Che kybr: have you tried to change the font of iterm2? 14:58
MasterDuke nine++ and this gets you that speedup in Tux's csv benchmark you mentioned earlier? 14:59
kybr AlexDaniel: maybe. i guess i'll make some gifs to show just what i mean. 15:00
nine MasterDuke: no, but it points in the right direction. For speeding up that benchmark I tried implementing void context, too. I'm not sure about the interface though. I went with $p5obj.foo(Mu, "foo")
AlexDaniel kybr: to be honest I don't understand how something can be that broken 15:04
kybr El_Che: i've played with fonts, but i have not done a careful search
AlexDaniel kybr: let me explain…
kybr: some characters are wide and some characters are narrow (full-width and half-width). So even if you have a fixed-width font, it doesn't mean that all characters will take the same width 15:05
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AlexDaniel kybr: however, if your editor renders characters on top of each other when it shouldn't, then your editor is utter crap… :) 15:05
kybr: then, some graphemes are composed of more than one codepoint 15:06
kybr half-width is the size of a single monospace character and full-width is two of those?
AlexDaniel kybr: depends on which character you have in mind 15:07
but leaving all details aside: yes
kybr thanks for the time. i know that this is sort of off topic. where's a better place to ask? 15:10
AlexDaniel kybr: it's the right place :)
kybr: ok continuing on graphemes, for example you can have a thumbs up emoji with a skin tone, like: 👍🏾 15:11
kybr: usually it will be rendered as a single emoji, even though it is two codepoints
kybr: now, text editors may do different things when you hit backspace there 15:12
some will delete just the last codepoint, so that'd be the skin tone, so the emoji will turn toneless but the character will remain where it is 15:13
but arguably the right behavior is to delete the whole emoji (both codepoints)
IMO both are useful behaviors
However! If your text editor does *something else*, then it is utter crap :) 15:14
for example if it takes multiple backspace presses to delete a single codepoint, that's bad
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kybr is there a way to ask a character if it is full or half width in perl6? 15:26
MasterDuke unicodable6: 👍🏾 15:33
unicodable6 MasterDuke, U+1F44D THUMBS UP SIGN [So] (👍)
MasterDuke, U+1F3FE EMOJI MODIFIER FITZPATRICK TYPE-5 [Sk] (🏾)
MasterDuke .u 👍🏾
yoleaux U+1F44D THUMBS UP SIGN [So] (👍)
MasterDuke unicodable6: help
unicodable6 MasterDuke, Just type any Unicode character or part of a character name. Alternatively, you can also provide a code snippet. # See wiki for more examples: github.com/perl6/whateverable/wiki/Unicodable
MasterDuke unidump: 👍🏾 15:34
unicodable6 MasterDuke, gist.github.com/9f97c9379f33a324e5...4ff3425abb
kybr interesting.. on this gist (rendered in chrome) i see that you are using a dark skin tone thumbs up, but here (hyper.is + mosh + tmux + weechat) i see a light skin tone thumbs up. 15:37
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timotimo in my terminal i see the yellow thumbs up followed by a square in the skin tone 15:39
also, font and terminal can disagree on whether a character is supposed to be double-width or not
which is super extra fun 15:40
kybr also, i find myself doing control-l frequently to clean up the screen when random characters show up.
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timotimo what versions of software are involved in your setup? 15:41
maybe an update in the right place could clear things up
kybr or downgrading to a less beta setup. 15:42
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kybr teminal: Hyper 3.0.0-canary.8 (canary) os: macOS 10.14.4 Beta (18E194d) 15:43
timotimo or maybe even changing a font
how much do you have to pay to get a mac os beta version? 15:44
kybr no dollars. you only pay in anxiety.
timotimo ha
AlexDaniel kybr: not really 15:46
kybr: (is it full or half width?)
kybr: you can look at East_Asian_Width property, but many times it doesn't give a definite answer 15:47
timotimo: double-width xDD 15:48
timotimo: I don't think it's a thing xD either half-width or full-width
kybr the thumbs up looks full width: +yoleaux | U+1F44D THUMBS UP SIGN [So] (👍)
timotimo u: double 15:49
unicodable6 timotimo, U+00AB LEFT-POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK [Pi] («)
timotimo, U+00BB RIGHT-POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK [Pf] (»)
timotimo, 443 characters in total: gist.github.com/fb0a16919d78aad56a...7ebea409b2
timotimo u: width 15:50
unicodable6 timotimo, U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE [Cf] (control character)
timotimo, U+200C ZERO WIDTH NON-JOINER [Cf] ( ‌)
timotimo, 236 characters in total: gist.github.com/32a954328fa0743384...580b67c7ab
timotimo OK, fullwidth and halfwidth
AlexDaniel heh they have a Venn diagram: www.unicode.org/reports/tr11/#Set_Relations
kybr i switched to iterm and the thumbs up is treated correctly. full-width.
AlexDaniel oh yeah, and of course, zero width… yet another thing you probably shouldn't expect to be rendered as any other character :) 15:51
kybr also, if you are using a proportional font, the character might be an arbitrary width, right? not just half or full?
AlexDaniel sure 15:52
maybe we should come up with a list of software that works nicely with unicode 15:54
especially for the basics, like terminals, editors, etc.
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andrzejku Hello 16:08
:)
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AlexDaniel hello :) 16:10
kybr yes. i'd like that. copy/pasting is a thing too. when i copy in program X and paste to program Y, X and Y (and the OS) each get a chance to interpret the bytes. a after copy from iterm+vim to TextEdit (macOS builtin), a stsample ring of unicode is using many different fonts 16:15
Geth doc: 6de08e3673 | cfa++ | 2 files
(Attempt to) clarify Pair.ACCEPTS (refs #2622).
 16:21
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cfa 👋🏽 16:31
jmerelo cfa: hey 16:32
cfa hey jmerelo 16:33
Geth ecosystem: JJ++ created pull request #434:
Uses a new Travis environment		 16:34
jmerelo Someone check ^^^ that out. I was a bit fed up with waiting up to 20 minutes for testing a simple META6.json, so I've created a docker container for it. 16:35
I can merge it, but I'd rather have someone else take a look because that will impact on how all new modules submitted to the ecosystem are tested from now on. 16:36
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sena_kun jmerelo, for what reason "docker images" command is necessary? 17:01
or, rather, used.
for logging/build reproducibility purposes? 17:02
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jmerelo sena_kun: for speed 17:34
sena_kun: ah, docker images. No, it's useless. It just shows that the image has been downloaded successfully, just in case something goes wrong. 17:35
sena_kun: it can be eliminated without losing functionality; I can take it ouf is you want.
sena_kun well, we may either remove it or comment its purpose, as "Why is it here" was my first question and I am not sure I will be the only one. :) 17:39
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jmerelo sena_kun: OK, will do. 17:40
Geth ecosystem: 3b993dd925 | (JJ Merelo)++ | 2 files
Changes travis and space for testing
 17:41
ecosystem: be38692599 | (JJ Merelo)++ | 2 files
Rewrites .travis.yml with specific container

Built for speed, closes #390
jmerelo sena_kun: OK, I pushed that by mistake. Anyway, just revert it if you don't think it's necessary 17:42
sena_kun: sorry about that. I forgot I had "origin" defined as the original, and "JJ" as my fork... 17:43
sena_kun jmerelo, I don't mind it being in master. 17:47
I mean... The job is to test out how it works with your docker image-based travis config, right?
I don't see anything criminal in your PR, so I don't think it has to be reverted "just because". 17:48
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jmerelo sena_kun: thanks. I think it's a great improvement 17:57
sena_kun: but then, I think that the community travis image should change. The one we're using now downloads and compiles perl 6 every single time.
sena_kun jmerelo, travis-ci.org/perl6/ecosystem <- "Nothing changed all fine.", is it how it should look like? 18:01
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jmerelo sena_kun: right, it means that there's no modification in META.list 18:01
sena_kun well, now we only have to wait for a new module to be released. :) 18:02
jmerelo sena_kun: the perl6 script looks for diffs in that file, downloads the META6.json and tests it. In this case this has nothing to do with that, so we're good
sena_kun: I'm going to test-add Avolution::Emoji, which had some problems a few days ago 18:03
sena_kun: oh, that was eventually added 18:04
Geth ecosystem: 3305416284 | (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list
Adds again BCP47

And tests new travis while we're on it.		 18:06
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jmerelo sena_kun: well, only PRs are tested... 18:07
Geth ecosystem/JJ-patch-1: c27ac9a48f | (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list
Eliminates space

  (Actually, I want to test the new travis)		 18:08
ecosystem: JJ++ created pull request #435:
Eliminates space		 18:09
doc: 6b1baa6892 | Coke++ | doc/Type/Pair.pod6
remove duplicate
 18:10
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/Pair
Geth ecosystem/JJ-patch-2: 5dacf34c19 | (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list
Trims spaces

Since there seemed to be a problem		 18:13
ecosystem: JJ++ created pull request #436:
Trims spaces		 18:14
jmerelo sena_kun: it works and tests in 36 seconds, as opposed to 12 minutes before: travis-ci.org/perl6/ecosystem/builds/497837363 18:17
This one fails, however...
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sena_kun looks awesome 18:18
jmerelo++
jmerelo sena_kun: thanks! Docker really rocks, once you get the hang of it. I'm going to try and patch that distro while I'm at it. 18:19
sena_kun I wonder what may cause "P6M Merging GLOBAL symbols failed: duplicate definition of symbol BCP47-Actions" though. 18:20
aaaah 18:23
jmerelo sena_kun: problem in META6.json 18:24
sena_kun: doing PR now.
b2gills chee: Module names are Unicode, but file-systems handle Unicode as arbitrary bytes. (You can have 4 files named "résumé" in the same directory)
Some file-systems are also case-insensitive.
Perl6 allows you to have multiple versions of the same module installed.
There has been talk about changing the file-system layout to use punycode rather than sha1, but that was a long time ago.
sena_kun yes
chee b2gills: thank you 18:29
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b2gills m: sub nfc ($_) {.encode('utf8-c8').decode }; for dir(test => {.&nfc eq 'résumé'}) { .relative.&nfc.say } 18:58
camelia résumé
résumé
résumé
résumé
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jmerelo Redirecting program output: stackoverflow.com/q/54855966/891440 How can we do that? 20:01
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sena_kun jmerelo, can't one just redefine $*OUT? 20:02
jmerelo sena_kun: Maybe, but I haven't seen any documentation for doing it. I haven't tried either... 20:03
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jmerelo m: $*OUT = "/tmp/test".IO; say "Hey"; "/tmp/test".IO.slurp.say 20:04
camelia Too many positionals passed; expected 1 argument but got 2
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
jmerelo m: $*OUT = "/tmp/test".IO; say "Hey";
camelia Too many positionals passed; expected 1 argument but got 2
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
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jmerelo Now that's unexpected. 20:04
m: temp $*OUT = "/tmp/test".IO; say "Hey"; "/tmp/test".IO.slurp.say 20:05
camelia Too many positionals passed; expected 1 argument but got 2
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
jmerelo m: temp $*OUT = "/tmp/test".IO; say "Hey";
camelia Too many positionals passed; expected 1 argument but got 2
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
moritz m: $*OUT = open('/tmp/test', :w); say 'Hei';
camelia ( no output )
moritz m: $*OUT = open('/tmp/test', :w); say 'Hei'; print slurp '/tmp/test' 20:06
camelia ( no output )
moritz m: $*OUT = open('/tmp/test', :w); say 'Hei'; $*ERR.print slurp '/tmp/test'
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Two terms in a row
at <tmp>:1
------> 3'/tmp/test', :w); say 'Hei'; $*ERR.print7⏏5 slurp '/tmp/test'
expecting any of:
infix
infix stopper
statement end
…
moritz m: $*OUT = open('/tmp/test', :w); say 'Hei'; $*ERR.print: slurp '/tmp/test'
camelia Hei
jmerelo moritz: great. Maybe needs to be closed?
moritz jmerelo: no, I just duplicated it :D
I tried to print its content to STDOUT, which was redirected to the file 20:07
jmerelo moritz: and I just saw this: github.com/sergot/IO-Capture-Simple/ 20:10
moritz github.com/sergot/IO-Capture-Simpl...mple.pm#L7 this doesn't look save if the called code throws an exception 20:14
jmerelo moritz: but if it works, there's no problem. I want it basically to test script output 20:17
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Elronnd ix.io/1BXl/perl6 what's wrong with this code? I get an error about the last line, cannot assign to an immutable value, which is a bit...cryptic 20:33
ahh, found gist.github.com/Xliff/96e48eaad469...0a73a918a. I still don't understand _why_ but... 20:39
andrzejku I make a risky step :D 20:42
send my cv with Perl6 experience :D
tadzik nice :)
andrzejku anyway is too risky as they ask me about Python all the time
but I think if recruiters would see that there are people who know
then maybe they will start to use that technology
tadzik realistically, I think it may just attract someone's attention and think "oh, a person who does things for fun and not just for work" 20:43
andrzejku tadzik, ya you are right but we are in Poland 20:44
tadzik so? :) 20:45
andrzejku tadzik, in Poland it is more like what he know and if we can use him to make money
it is rarely that company allows you to make what you like
tadzik I assure you, it's the same everywhere. Companies exists in order to make money, everything else is a secondary objective at best
andrzejku tadzik, not at all 20:46
western companies push in QA more
here is just outsourcing
tadzik I worked for many "western companies". Not true
or maybe I had a sad experience :)
andrzejku tadzik, I woroked in outsource it is even worse :P
tadzik but I've been both exploited as a cheap foreign worker by those "nice companies", and worked for companies who push for results with little regard to QA 20:47
so at the very least it's not so black and white :)
andrzejku tadzik, well lets not argue
tadzik but what I meant is, if I, preparing for an interview, see a candidate that does their own projects in their spare time, I immediately think of them higher than someone who just does their job and nothing else 20:48
perhaps it's just my opensource hacker bias :P
if I saw someone with Perl 6 in their resume, I'd think "oh, cool that they're researching new technologies; I hope their Perl5 is good enough to hire them" :)
andrzejku tadzik, that's right maybe not all the people have enough time to do that
tadzik yeah
I've been there as well. Sometimes you just want to chill out and step away from the screen, nothing wrong or unprofessional at that 20:49
andrzejku tadzik, I will not blame everyone for that
or you have to play with your kids :D
tadzik yep :)
andrzejku tadzik, are you still living in Warsaw? 20:50
tadzik anyway, if you have Perl 5 experience too feel free to drop me your resume :)
andrzejku: yes
andrzejku tadzik, no I am looking for C/C++
tadzik ah
andrzejku tadzik, Perl6 is just a hobby
tadzik right, you mentioned Python before, I thought you're looking for that 20:51
andrzejku but they always ask me about Python in addition
tadzik curious
andrzejku because some companies write tests
tadzik heh, that's a good sign then :)
andrzejku a higher level tests
so in my opinion there is no bigger difference to do that in Perl6
they guys who do that they usually have no knowledge how to start it in Python :D 20:52
tadzik for that purpose, the ease of learning is crucial I think
andrzejku anyway if more guys come with Perl6 I believe that someone decides to use it for testing staff because he have a team members who prefer Perl over Python 20:55
but it is just a dream :(
tadzik you're fighting a good fight :) 20:56
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irced punches himself in the face. 21:35
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moritz sounds painful 21:46
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andrzejku moritz, why? 21:54
moritz andrzejku: I was commenting on > irced punches himself in the face. 21:55
andrzejku ahh 21:56
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