»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
arnsholt Yeah, sleepytimes for me too, I think 00:08
See you guys later!
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timotimo i hope i can get r2-lex-to-local cool & merged for the release 00:12
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tadzik \o/ 00:40
arnsholt++
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BooK FROGGS[mobile]: ping 00:57
BenGoldberg ping? 00:58
timotimo ohai book! 01:01
how are you doing?
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lue We really need to fix whatever it was that's throttling IO in rakudo. ==> Fetching panda is taking forever. 01:07
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timotimo could probably be canonpath and friends ;) 01:07
BooK timotimo: fine, preparing the Perl QA Hackathon, now in less than a month 01:08
lue [Coke], pmichaud: are one of you around to check if my CLA has been processed?
timotimo that sounds great
how much perl6 is likely to happen on that hackathon?
BooK lizmat, woolfy and froggs should be there 01:09
so, some :-)
timotimo where is it going to happen?
BooK Lyon, France
timotimo oh 01:10
france is actually not too far away from karlsruhe
um, no, that's still pretty darn far
BooK same continent! 01:11
timotimo that's a good start :)
i think i'm going to go to bed now
BooK if we're in the same timezone, that sounds like a good idea
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timotimo yup :) 01:13
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timotimo huh. i'm actually turning QAST::Blocks into QAST::Stmts and it's not blowing up the rakudo build?! 01:30
impossible!
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timotimo someone is suggesting "Find the median of an unsorted array of 1e6 numerical values as fast or faster then Perl5." as a possible benchmark for perl6. seems like an interesting one to me. maybe i'll build it tomorrow. but i'd need someone to build the equivalent implementation in perl5. 01:50
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timotimo what does "also-ran" mean? 01:53
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TimToady didn't win the race in first place 01:54
timotimo ah! 01:55
okay, bedtime for me now :)
JimmyZ good night timotimo 01:57
timotimo gnite JimmyZ :)
.o( also, Knuths Algorithm X probably has a rosettacode page, so that could actually become a benchmark, too)
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TimToady haven't seen it under that name 02:02
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TimToady unfortunately RC seems hung at the moment 02:07
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miseria "ajedrez batalla entre negros y blancos, al final del final el blanco no tendra peones y el negro prevalecera" bienvenidos: castroruben.com *temo_a_un_ser_sin_rival* 03:18
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lue What exactly does :$parent mean in the various implementations of canonpath? And why does the Cygwin version not come with it? 03:19
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colomon it's an orphan 03:22
colomon apologizes for useless wordplay instead of meaningful answers
lue All it does is control whether or not a particular substitution takes place, but it doesn't actually influence said regex, which is what I'd expect of an adverb like $parent. 03:25
ah, it's supposed to be a binary adverb it seems 03:30
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lue r: say "a/b/../c/./././d/../../..////e".IO.path.cleanup' 03:43
camelia rakudo-parrot 306261, rakudo-jvm 306261, rakudo-moar 306261: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤------> c/./././d/../../..////e".IO.path.cleanup⏏'␤ expecting any of:␤ …»
lue r: say "a/b/../c/./././d/../../..////e".IO.path.cleanup
camelia rakudo-parrot 306261, rakudo-jvm 306261, rakudo-moar 306261: OUTPUT«IO::Path<a/b/../c/d/../../../e>␤»
lue r: say "a/b/../c/./././d/../../..////e".IO.path.cleanup(:parent)
camelia rakudo-parrot 306261, rakudo-jvm 306261, rakudo-moar 306261: OUTPUT«IO::Path<e>␤»
lue Is it just me, or does that go against the definition of "canonical"?
(.cleanup simply calls .canonpath) 03:44
TimToady in the presence of symbolic links, .. doesn't always get you back where you started 03:48
lue True. Though I can't figure out what possible definition the word "parent" has that would understandably cause that behavior up there. 03:49
TimToady means to assume the original . was the parent, I presume 03:50
lue I can see that. Very unintuitive though, at least for me :/ 03:51
TimToady or it just means pay attention to .. 03:52
which is arguably "parent" 03:53
lue perhaps :fold-parents would be clearer, since that's what it does (seeing as it's a flag for deciding an action, thus the name should be verby. Perhaps I'm just unhappy I couldn't get it instantly :P) 03:55
TimToady it must obviously be someone else's fault :)
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lue Just trying to see if I can optimize canonpath in any way, and got tripped up on that a bit. I still think :parent more immediately says "I am a parent of something", or "I have a parent" 03:57
For some reason, I feel like all the use of s// is what's slowing it down. Can't say for sure though. 03:58
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Mouq lue: I still have work to do on certain doc files, but is there anything you've noticed about the way Rakudo does Pod that needs to be fixed? 06:53
I ask because I have an itch to fix =begin code :allow<B> 06:54
lue Mouq: biggest (and hopefully simple) thing is that final line shouldn't need a newline (e.g. the last line of a .pod6 file shouldn't have to be =end pod\n)
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lue :allow<> is another big thing I think :) 06:55
Mouq r: #gimme newline 06:57
camelia ( no output )
lue worst part about the newline thing is that it'll complain that there's no =end for your =begin, and then the error pointer points to the end of the file... which shows the =end that's not being picked up :)
Mouq r: say #please?
camelia rakudo-parrot 306261, rakudo-jvm 306261, rakudo-moar 306261: OUTPUT«␤»
Mouq r: =begin pod␤thanks camelia␤=end pod 06:58
camelia rakudo-parrot 306261, rakudo-jvm 306261, rakudo-moar 306261: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile␤=begin without matching =end␤at /tmp/tmpfile:3␤------> <BOL>⏏=end pod␤ expecting any of:␤ whitespace␤ …»
Mouq That's... pretty dumb
lue I'm pretty sure whatever \n handles it just needs a ? after it, though I can't say I actually know Rakudo's implementation of Pod6. 06:59
Mouq I was thinking more along the lines of [\n|^]
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Mouq errr *$ 07:00
lue Oh, I've just always been using \n? whenever I needed to, though I suppose [\n|$] would be more correct :P
Mouq lue: I'm just worried about the weird cases \n? might pares where it shouldn't 07:01
"=end pod|"
*parse
lue yeah, definitely go with |$. Now that I think about it, it's amazing I haven't been bitten by \n? before.
(maybe because \n? is greedy...) 07:02
♘ #perl6 o/ 07:04
Mouq I would think 07:06
night lue!
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Mouq lue: Fixed! :D 07:09
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Mouq n: =begin pod␤thanks camelia␤=end pod 07:10
camelia ( no output )
Mouq Looks like it didn't regress pod parsing 07:12
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dalek kudo/nom: 9025c36 | Mouq++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp:
Parse pod in files without an ending newline
 07:14
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FROGGS BooK: pong 07:18
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dalek ast: aa59bf2 | Mouq++ | S26-documentation/01-delimited.t:
Test that Pod files don't have to end in a newline
 07:30
Mouq wonders if we rakudo really needs that moar-support branch anymore… 07:33
FROGGS I don't think we need it anymore 07:34
Mouq doesn't actually know how to delete upstream branches 07:36
FROGGS ohh, I could tell you :P 07:37
git push origin :moar-support
the colon does it
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Mouq :O it worked! FROGGS++ 07:38
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masak seen on HN: "'sufficiently smart compiler' is kind of like 'world peace': something to work towards, but doubtful we'll have in our lifetime" 07:45
(good morning, #perl6) 07:46
Mouq o/ 07:47
mathw o/ 07:48
FROGGS o/ 07:51
masak hehe. 07:52
BooK FROGGS: hi 07:53
FROGGS hi BooK 07:54
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BooK lizmat: ping 07:58
ingy masak: ping
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moritz Mouq, FROGGS: sufficiently non-ancient versions of git also allow git push --delete origin <branchname> 07:58
which, IMHO, is slightly less obscure, unless you are deeply familiar with the intricacies of the git ref syntax 07:59
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FROGGS moritz: --delete is way nicer, yeah :o) 07:59
ingy git push origin +:branchname # so simple
;)
moritz ingy: so simple, until you hit www.oreilly.com/catalog/erratauncon...6920024774 08:00
ingy :) 08:01
I just learned about +a:b yesterday
while finishing up git-subrepo 08:02
moritz it's... finished up?
I'm afraid of finished software. It's dead. :-)
ingy heh
I mean I got it to 0.1.0
I actually switched all projects to it today 08:03
I just finished switching git-hub to it a couple mins ago
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Mouq r: regex test { not ok }; regex test:sym<test> { ok }; say 'ok' ~~ /<test:sym<test>>/ 08:12
camelia rakudo-jvm 306261: OUTPUT«Useless declaration of a has-scoped method in mainline (did you mean 'my regex test'?)␤Useless declaration of a has-scoped method in mainline (did you mean 'my regex test:sym<test>'?)␤No such method 'test' for invocant of type 'Cursor'␤ in method ACC…»
..rakudo-parrot 306261: OUTPUT«Useless declaration of a has-scoped method in mainline (did you mean 'my regex test'?)␤Useless declaration of a has-scoped method in mainline (did you mean 'my regex test:sym<test>'?)␤No such method 'test' for invocant of type 'Cursor'␤ in regex …»
..rakudo-moar 306261: OUTPUT«Useless declaration of a has-scoped method in mainline (did you mean 'my regex test'?)␤Useless declaration of a has-scoped method in mainline (did you mean 'my regex test:sym<test>'?)␤No such method 'test' for invocant of type 'Cursor'␤ in method AC…»
Mouq r: my regex test { not ok }; my regex test:sym<test> { ok }; say 'ok' ~~ /<test:sym<test>>/
camelia rakudo-parrot 306261, rakudo-jvm 306261, rakudo-moar 306261: OUTPUT«Nil␤» 08:13
Mouq :(
n: my regex test { not ok }; my regex test:sym<test> { ok }; say 'ok' ~~ /<test:sym<test>>/
camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ &test is declared but not used at /tmp/jeliqRmeQX line 1:␤------> my regex test ⏏{ not ok }; my regex test:sym<test> { ok␤␤｢ok｣␤ test:sym<test> => ｢ok｣␤␤»
Mouq n: my regex test:sym<test> { ok }; say 'ok' ~~ /<test:sym<test>>/
camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ &test is declared but not used at /tmp/V0DtJiCh9C line 1:␤------> my regex test:sym<test> ⏏{ ok }; say 'ok' ~~ /<test:sym<test>>/␤␤｢ok｣␤ test:sym<test> => ｢ok｣␤␤»
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Daniel___ testing 08:15
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lizmat BooK: ping 08:20
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DrEeevil gorrammit. I'm starting to not enjoy git ... but I hope I have a MoarVM 2014.01 tarball that actually works now 08:29
timotimo DrEeevil: moarvm.org has one for you 08:30
o/
DrEeevil timotimo: oh. that sounds quite smart :) 08:31
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DrEeevil there's too many traps in trying to make a tarball from github 08:32
so sad. I want something good like sourceforge or berlios!
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timotimo something good like sourceforge %) 08:34
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DrEeevil well, at least they could do basic things like tarballs 08:34
... and that's why github makes me very saaaaad 08:35
moritz doubts that sourceforge or berlios were aware of anything remotely like submodules 08:36
DrEeevil moritz: better than build systems calling git directly
I'm getting tired of patching out shit that can't work 08:37
moritz DrEeevil: I kinda disagree. For development, using dev tools is fair game. For releases, we provide tarballs that work
and that don't require git
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DrEeevil moritz: "you" ... well ... 08:38
moritz "the MoarVM developers and release team" 08:39
DrEeevil there's a few sane upstreams, but they are so few these days that I am surprised when I hit one
silly me, who needs reprodru ... riprudu ... thingy, builds
moritz silly me, here I was thinking you were actually talking about something relevant to #perl6 08:40
DrEeevil hehe 08:41
I was unaware that you had now created a proper website and support machinery
and I'm happy that my old dirty hacks are no longer needed for 2014.01 :)
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jnthn DrEeevil: There's even a "make release" target in Makefile, largely done by moritz++, that should led you recreate the published tarballs from the tag, fwiw. 08:47
DrEeevil now *that* is proper lazy 08:48
timotimo you asked for it :3 08:50
DrEeevil hehe
y'all have been one of the most accomodating upstreams so far 08:52
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dalek href="https://perl6.org:">perl6.org: f074958 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | source/documentation/index.html:
link to advent calendar 2013, move book link down
 09:46
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popl sorry for the noise. 12:31
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FROGGS "Touch the frog." ? 12:40
why would somebody do that?
Nei he already left though;) 12:41
probably too much FROGGS touching
FROGGS I know :o)
yeah... I'm a bit touchy about that topic
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timotimo %) 13:23
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[Coke] lue: I don't see "lue" in the doc 14:51
jnthn [Coke]: Real name is Matthew...something. 14:52
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[Coke] it is very plausible your CLA is in now. 14:59
timotimo \o/
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[Coke] I updated docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?ke...sp=sharing 15:07
(with 2 more backends, that style of chart is less useful. suggestions (and editors) welcome.
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timotimo we really need more test coverage for S01, holy shit that is basically untested! 15:09
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timotimo i'm confused by the colors 15:10
are they who made the changes or do they actually mean something?
[Coke] timotimo: colors on the chart? each is an impl.
timotimo: colors on the data? I think it's "who wins this row"
timotimo but that's not accurate 15:11
[Coke] ... nope.
those colors are meaningless, clearing them. 15:12
timotimo OK :)
[Coke] I haven't updated this document in ages. Need to automate it if I care.
timotimo have you tried the google docs scripting support yet? 15:13
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[Coke] timotimo: nope. 15:13
;just found this doc looking for the CLA doc.
timotimo i think it's some javascript api that you can use for your stuff
[Coke] I won't get to it any time soon if someone wants to play. :0 15:17
timotimo :)
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[Coke] wonders what happened to rakudo.org/node/75 15:46
(found from an old reddit post) 15:47
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timotimo web.archive.org/web/20100914203621...rg/node/75 - maybe this? 16:02
web.archive.org/web/20100731055044...rg/node/75 or this
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TimToady fyi, RC is back up now 16:18
timotimo doesn't seem to have anything on Dancing Links or Algorithm X 16:20
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dalek kudo-star-daily: 8f58593 | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
today (automated commit)
 16:57
kudo-star-daily: f8448f1 | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
today (automated commit)
rl6-roast-data: 3257f4a | coke++ | / (5 files):
today (automated commit)
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isBEKaml moritz: I gotta ask - did you just find the errata first thing when somebody points out some new feature in git? (Context: I'm referring to this conversation here -> irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2014-02-18#i_8301578) :-) 16:59
s/new/obscure/ 17:01
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arnsholt o/ 17:01
colomon \
\o
colomon has to get his Mac's keyboard fixed
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raydiak colomon: don't lose your head :) 17:03
colomon www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcG5HQnCBU4...feature=kp 17:04
raydiak haha 17:05
r: my $a = 2**128/1e18; say $a; say $a/100; 17:09
camelia rakudo-parrot 9025c3: OUTPUT«3.40282366920938e+20␤3.40282366920938e+18␤»
..rakudo-moar 9025c3: OUTPUT«3.40282366920938e+2␤3.40282366920938e+18␤»
..rakudo-jvm 9025c3: OUTPUT«3.402823669209385E20␤3402823669209384960␤»
raydiak ^^ known moarbug?
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timotimo float formatting is, i think 17:10
huh.
colomon jvm-bug as well
masak not know, methinks.
known*
moritz isBEKaml: no; I recentely held a git course, together with a coworker. He told me about that problem with git pull --force 17:11
raydiak goes to report it
masak moritz++ # I didn't know about that one either
isBEKaml cool, moritz++ 17:12
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japhb is starting to wonder if float formatting just needs a scratch rewrite, given the bug count. :-( 17:17
colomon japhb: probably not a bad idea, if you've got the time. ;) 17:18
japhb I wish. 17:19
colomon There are some conceptual issues -- it probably should work correctly for Rats, FatRats, etc too.
japhb is so deep in yak hair he's having trouble seeing over the pile
colomon it would be great even if someone just kept putting error cases in the test suite… so at least we don't lose the knowledge of what needs to be fixed. 17:20
[Coke] failing tests >> no tests 17:21
japhb colomon: True enough. As a matter of fact, a first pass might convert Num/num/Rat to FatRat, and just write the FatRat case.
colomon except we don't have direct FatRat support in NQP, do we?
japhb colomon: I think you put a couple reports from the last few months in.
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japhb For NQP, we can just pass numerator and denominator to the formatting op separately. 17:22
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japhb timotimo: For this week's summary's LHF list: 1) Create a good test suite for numeric formatting, 2) Make it pass. 17:24
timotimo good idea 17:25
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moritz I don't think that 2) is a LHF 17:27
timotimo right, but 1) is 17:28
moritz one LHF, one HHF :-)
(though there I'm pretty sure there's lots of literature on float formatting out there) 17:29
TimToady there are a lot of people who think 2) is a LHF, but we need someone who knows better :)
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sergot What about GSoC this year? :) 17:33
moritz that would be pretty dull, no?
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timotimo aye, nothing about float formatting is interesting or spectacular 17:34
masak sergot++ wants to do GSoC work within Perl 6 this year. 17:35
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masak which is awesome. 17:35
how can we enable him to do that?
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nwc10 either by Google accepting TPF as a mentoring organisation, or I guess failing that, a Hague Fund grant 17:36
timotimo masak: through nepotism! :) 17:37
[Coke] Does he have a particular project in mind? or a particular set of skills?
masak he has a particular project in mind.
sergot Mainly, I wanted to implement ssl in p6. 17:38
And HTTP::* stuff
timotimo oh that sounds nice
sergot + LWP and WWW stuff
masak sergot++ 17:39
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japhb SSL (in particular, a complete binding to openssl) was one of my GSOC suggestions because I really need it. 17:40
arnsholt I could probably co-mentor the NativeCall bits of such a project 17:41
[Coke] is that enough for a full GSOC ? 17:42
(if not, adding other bits needed to get us something like Mojolicious6 ++)
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[Coke] add that project to the list, though, if it's not already there. 17:43
sergot After implementing ssl we'll be able to write a lot of new things, won't we?
regardless gsoc I want to implement those. :) 17:44
TimToady after that we can win the hearts of *all* the hipsters :)
japhb A full Mojolicious on Perl 6 would be a big task, I would think.
Does GSOC have the concept of "main goals" and "stretch goals"? 17:45
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TimToady my impression is that they work more on the bite-off-more-that-you-can-chew principle and then see how it goes :) 17:46
japhb Because OpenSSL binding + Mojo would be a main goal -- and getting to full Mojolicious would definitely be a stretch.
Fair enough.
vendethiel Mojolicious on Perl 6 seems like a fun task to do :) 17:47
TimToady but as a result we end up with a lot of half-done GSoC projects sitting around...
[Coke] was just thinking a morbo-alike (moarbo) would be possible now with recent socket improvements on moar.
jnthn We should have async sockets in time for GSoC projects too, which will be a big help for those things.
timotimo oh, even on moar? :P 17:48
[Coke] TimToady: which makes it a minicosm of perl6 development. :P
jnthn timotimo: Yeah. Maybe even first on Moar.
[Coke] himself has a ton of things he could finish. :P
sergot After that all ssl and HTTP:: stuff I want to work on Qt bindings. :)
jnthn Depends what order I pick things off :)
japhb vendethiel: :-) Note though that the lead dev of Mojo* has said Rakudo currently lacks some things he believes are necessary for a proper port. Decent signal handling and full async IO, for two.
[Coke] oh. is there a jenkins-alike that handles TAP output?
timotimo probably even a jenkins plugin 17:49
jnthn The concurrency stuff is the Next Big Thing I need to work on for Moar.
[Coke] that woudl let me kill at least one side project. ;)
timotimo \o/ 17:50
TimToady some combination of native shaped arrays and sending things off to a vector processor might be a good GSoC project
moritz [Coke]: there's jmason.org/software/scripts/tap-to-junit-xml.txt which would allows you to use hudson/jenkins 17:51
stackoverflow.com/questions/101786/...k-for-perl
TimToady that is, do something cool with embarrassingly parallelizable hyperoperators
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arnsholt sergot: Qt bindings is probably going to have a large research component to it 17:53
Qt is all C++, which is beyond the scope of NativeCall
[Coke] moritz: you think we could run this on one of the feathers? 17:54
sergot arnsholt: oh.. you're right. 17:55
[Coke] moritz: nevermind. I'll play with some of the options on that page and see if I can get something going.
arnsholt sergot: That's not to say it's impossible. There are Python bindings (IIRC), so it's certainly possible
I'm just not quite sure how =) 17:56
__sri japhb: a simple port of mojolicious isn't such a big project, less than 9k lines of code, what will take more time is adapting new perl6 idioms
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TimToady we just need a refactoring translator, is all... :) 17:56
arnsholt idly ponders applying statistical machine translation techniques to $lang_a to $lang_b refactorings 17:57
TimToady it only has to be smart enough to solve the halting problem
timotimo i think we learnt how to solve the halting problem in comp sci class 17:58
it was actually the same week i learnt how to do my own super secure crypto based on DES and md5
arnsholt That's what compiler optimisations are, no? Special case solutions to general case unsolvable problems =) 17:59
sergot arnsholt: So, we should think about it. For now I want to take care of ssl. :)
arnsholt SSL should be more straightforward. More a question of finding the bugs and limitations in NativeCall and solving/working around them 18:00
timotimo i'm a really big fan of Qt; maybe the stuff the PySide people came up with could be made to work with perl6, actually
TimToady
.oO(Is it better to be buried in a pile of yak hair, or in a pile of unshaven yaks?)
timotimo: we just need that refactoring Py2P6 translator as well
arnsholt If you're buried in yak hair, at least some of the yaks are shaven, so the former I guess?
jnthn arnsholt: Reminds me of a quip from one researcher on the "what department might you do a PhD with" day: "In the PL research group the problems are mostly undecidable or NP-complete, but we solve them fast anyway." :)
arnsholt \o/ 18:01
timotimo TimToady: actually, i think what that project does is generate CPython extension code
so we would have to emulate the CPython API like the pypy people do :P
TimToady well, that's the part you have to refactor :P
arnsholt Yeah, let's not do that =)
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timotimo maybe someone wants to work some more on our Net-ZMQ binding 18:02
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timotimo especially now that we can have concurrency as well as NativeCall 18:03
arnsholt Yeah, it's one of the options on my list of things I'd like to do 18:04
An IPython kernel for Rakudo would be awesome
timotimo aye. 18:05
supernovus A quick question, would "Configure.pl --gen-parrot --gen-moar --gen-nqp --backends=parrot,moar,jvm" generate all of the current Rakudo backends? It's been quite some time since I've used Rakudo (or anything Perl 6 related for that matter) and would like to fix up some of my rusting modules.
TimToady or --backends=ALL 18:06
(with those --gen options)
moritz supernovus: yes, looks right to me
timotimo oh hey supernovus!
supernovus: are you going to look into making the psgi library do some parallelism on the jvm? 18:07
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timotimo hm, also now that we have sockets, psgi on moar would be an interesting thing to test 18:09
supernovus timotimo: I'd love to look into making PSGI, SCGI, FastCGI and Web all support parallelism on any VMs supporting it. Of course I'd have to do it in a way that backends that don't support it could ignore it...
timotimo yes, that's probably the hard part
though when moar gets the parallelism stuff, we only have to worry about the upcoming JS port and that should do just fine with parallelism, no? 18:10
in that case we could probably get away with parrot users getting a different module for that 18:11
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supernovus Done using some of my usual tricks, I could have backend submodules that get loaded on demand depending on the runtime. 18:14
timotimo that would work; alternatively you could have a Build.pm 18:15
japhb supernovus: For which I recommend testing if ::('Thread') ~~ Failure -- working here for me. :-)
timotimo but that'd only work with panda, not with ufo
supernovus Feature detection and dynamic loading, yeah, you might be able to tell that my day job involves a lot of browser-side Javascript ;-)
timotimo :D
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nwc10 JS has parallelism that can use multiple CPU cores? 18:16
timotimo oh, crap, i forgot about that
moritz web workers, afaict
timotimo moritz: rakudo-js is almost primarily targetting node.js, though
and web workers are pretty painful it seems like
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supernovus Hmm, looks like I need to read S11, my modules have a line through the S11 support logo... 18:18
timotimo it's for the "experimental S11" stuff
basically means you have to put a "provides" section in your Meta.list
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timotimo er, Meta.info 18:19
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supernovus Looked at a few projects with the provides structure, seems simple enough. 18:25
timotimo yup 18:26
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supernovus So, with the provides, any module/compunit that is meant for external consumption should be listed? 18:33
timotimo actually not 100% sure if it's also necessary for "internal" things to be in there 18:35
i also forgotten where the writeup could be found
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supernovus Hmm, well, I've seen a few modules that only have their public module/class listed. 18:36
timotimo it'll take a bit until s11 gets mandatory
worst case someone'll shoot you a pullrequest ;)
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supernovus Hmm, I'm guessing the names in "provides" are for compilation units, not necessarily classes? As for instance the XML library, you only ever do "use XML", and all of the individual classes (XML::Node, XML::Element, etc.) are defined within XML.pm6 18:50
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vendethiel timotimo: where's rakudo-js ? 18:51
source-wise I mean
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supernovus Should we still be using * as the version in our META.info, or actually specifying a real version? 18:53
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raydiak is there a way to tell panda not to build JARs for a module? or better yet, any tricks to get it to not run out of memory when doing so? 19:18
rurban_ perl Configure.pl --backends=parrot --with-parrot=`which parrot`: Using /usr/local/bin/parrot (version 0). (empty version from installed parrot) 19:22
nqp also doesn't support parallel make yet (dyncall) 19:23
PerlJam raydiak: probably the same way that is specified in Rakudo's README (Using something like "-Xms500m -Xmx2g"). But I don't know how to pass that to panda.
(or even if you can. It's just what occurs to me that might work) 19:24
raydiak PerlJam: good idea, but I already had to put that in my nqp-j, to get the module to work at all 19:26
even gave it 3 gigs to both ms and mx, still no luck
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FROGGS supernovus: put everything in the provides section that will be "use"-d or "require"-d 19:28
supernovus FROGGS: thanks, that's what I'm doing. Anything that someone would do a "use xxx" I'm putting into the provides structure. 19:29
FROGGS supernovus: and even what your module is going to use internally
raydiak oh, wait...perl6-j doesn't call nqp-j
FROGGS (because there is no difference) 19:30
supernovus Yeah, including internal dependencies if they are defined in separate files that need to be "use"-ed.
FROGGS exactly
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raydiak PerlJam++ # your suggestion led me to reexamine my fallacious assumptions :) 19:35
sergot good night! o/ 19:36
PerlJam btw, speaking of panda ... has moar-support really been merged? It doesn't appear so in my copy of the panda repo (it still lives primarily in tadzik/panda, yes?)
FROGGS PerlJam: moar-support has not been merged in panda afaik 19:37
and yes, it is in tadzik/panda 19:38
PerlJam ok, thanks.
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lue hello o/ 20:04
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raydiak \o lue 20:07
lizmat hello #perl6 from Cologne 20:08
tadzik no, I didn't merge it yet 20:09
I don't see why I shouldn't though :)
masak hi lue, lizmat 20:10
lizmat masak o/
FROGGS tadzik: I've not tested it properly but I can't imagine that panda-p would break for some reason 20:12
tadzik should be easy enough to test
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tadzik „Ricardo Signes, Perl 5 Pumpkin” 20:15
I think TPF meant for that to say "pumpking"... or did it? :P
masak :P
tadzik: I thought someone told you. "Ricardo Signes" is the name of the pumkin the Perl 5 devs pass around among themselves. 20:16
pumpkin*
tadzik: the actual Perl 5 Pumpking is called Inigo Montoya.
tadzik :) 20:17
benabik Perl 5.20 "You Killed My Father, Prepare to Die" 20:19
masak :D 20:21
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masak Perl 5.22 "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means" 20:21
tadzik Perl 5.24 "Just migrate to Perl 6 already" 20:22
I want to believe （´ー｀　）
masak peaceful coexistence, man. 20:23
tadzik peace, brother
lizmat
.oO( and I submitted a talk about the de-cocooning of the Camel into Camelia )
 20:24
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masak lizmat: well, as stevan__++'s moe shows, everything turns to Perl 6 in the end :P 20:25
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lizmat but when? :-) 20:26
tadzik in 5.24, of course :P
lue Would a POD2Pod converter be helpful? All it seems it would do is encase the file in =begin/=end pod, replace =over/=back, remove =cut, replace F<>, and change L<Page/Sec> to L<Page#Sec> 20:28
masak lue: I can see how it could be useful, yes. 20:30
lue Alright, 'cos I feel writing such a thing would be ultimately more useful than me hand-converting all the synopses to Pod6. 20:31
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dalek ast: 2e83594 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S05-mass/charsets.t:
Test seems to pass on Moar, fail on JVM and Parrot
 20:37
raydiak anything special I ought to know about adding a module to the ecosystem? or just throw it on the end of META.list and call it good? 20:42
tadzik there's a wiki for that! :P 20:43
raydiak: wiki.perl6.org/Create%20and%20Distr...%20Modules
but yeah, it's mostly what you said
just please double check if META.info is valid json, or if it installs with panda
panda can install stuff from local directories
if panda doesn't work for you please yell at me until I fix it
raydiak I did try panda-build and panda-install locally, so ought to be good there 20:44
is the .md on README important?
tadzik no 20:45
module ecosystem doesn't care
lue just means the README's in markdown
tadzik it helps github to render stuff
lue tadzik: well, the ecosystem won't recognize README.pod6 ... :)
raydiak just thought I'd check, since it's mentioned explicitly 20:46
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dalek osystem: baff396 | raydiak++ | META.list:
Add Math::ThreeD
 20:46
tadzik raydiak++ 20:48
raydiak thanks :) how often does it update, so I can try an end-to-end test when it's available?
tadzik the panda modules list updates hourly 20:49
then you need 'panda update' locally
or I can poke the cronjob to do it now
raydiak nah no rush...I need a shower anyway
tadzik (I just did it anyway)
raydiak that works 20:50
tadzik it should be there now 20:52
feather.perl6.nl:3000/module/Math;ThreeD :)
raydiak hm, something is broken 20:53
"Could not find file '/home/x/.work/1392756757_1/.work/1392756757_1/gen-libs.p6' for module /home/x/.work/1392756757_1/.work/1392756757_1/gen-libs.p6"
lue tadzik: how would I specify scripts (e.g. bin/dothings.p6) in a META.info? I don't know of any S11-compliant module with such things. 20:54
raydiak probably has to do with something I did wrong in the build stuff
tadzik hmmm 20:55
oh 20:56
the contents of lib/ bin/ and t/ are copied over
raydiak ah
tadzik .......I think :)
raydiak but not everything else? what about build scripts that you don't want installed like the stuff you'd put in bin? 20:57
tadzik hmm
did you look into that .work/blabla dir?
it may not be there once panda finishes
but if it is, it may prove insightful 20:58
raydiak yeah, ~/.work doesn't even exist after it exits
tadzik yeah, that's semi-useful. I should probably keep it if it fails, and then maybe reomve it on next startup
s/I/It/ 20:59
I promise to look into it later, now I'm pretty much out of mana : 21:00
FROGGS raydiak: your error message looks like you are doing a "require" which decided not to like relative paths
raydiak so if I just move it all into lib and/or bin, it ought to work for now?
tadzik :(
raydiak I did this: class Build is Panda::Builder { method build ($where) { require "{$where.path.absolute.child('gen-libs.p6')}"; } }
tadzik lue: oh, you have to ask FROGGS about that :)
he's the S11 expert
the error message seems to indicate that you did it correctly 21:01
FROGGS lue: you just have to put them in bin/ I think
tadzik and since you said that panda-build and panda-install worked, it sounds like it can only be a matter of panda-fetch being stupid
FROGGS panda installs things that are in bin/, and then the eleven branches would install it including wrappers for -m, -p and -j
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FROGGS perhaps we should test require and require+precomp on its own 21:02
lue FROGGS: I was just curious about how to set up that provides section, if necessary.
FROGGS lue: scripts are not supposed to go into provides 21:03
lue: only comp units that you are going to "use"/"need" or "require" are supposed to be in there
beause that is what it is, just a map of names to files 21:04
"files", even :o)
lue Alright then; just curious if I had to say that this module comes with script.p6, like how you say that it comes with Foo::Bar
FROGGS lue: no, because script.p6 kinda is a filesystem thing, in contrast to Foo::Bar
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FROGGS lue: and don't worry, if something won't work out with S11, I'll pull request you :o) 21:05
the next two months are fully dedicated to S11 from my side 21:06
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raydiak is there an intended place that I put scripts and libs which are only relevant to the build process, and not part of the resulting module? if I put a build script in bin, will it end up in the user's PATH or anywhere else cluttering up their system? or just tucked away with the module itself? 21:09
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FROGGS bin/ will be in PATH, yes 21:09
I'd put scripts in tools/ if I were you
and you could have an inc/ dir for build time modules 21:10
raydiak hrm 21:11
FROGGS raydiak: the require error is triggered by installing Math::ThreeD?
raydiak yes
FROGGS btw, that inc/ dir is Perl 5 thinking, but I think it is still valid
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raydiak the whole lib is generated by the build process, the repo doesn't even have a lib/ in it (which may also be part of the problem) 21:13
dalek ecs: 10590d4 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | create_contents.p6:
Make create_contents a bit more idiomatic P6
 21:14
FROGGS no, that should not be a problem according to Panda::Builder
lizmat FROGGS++ for "the next two months are fully dedicated to S11 from my side"
FROGGS :o) 21:15
panda-m install Math::ThreeD 21:16
==> Fetching Math::ThreeD
==> Building Math::ThreeD
Could not find file '/home/froggs/dev/panda/.work/1392758161_1/.work/1392758161_1/gen-libs.p6' for module /home/froggs/dev/panda/.work/1392758161_1/.work/1392758161_1/gen-libs.p6
so yeah, that even happens using the "eleven" branches
raydiak I'll dig more into it in an hour or so...luckily panda is very sane and easy to read (the code I mean) tadzik++ 21:19
FROGGS it felt a bit too OO-y for me when I read it the first time 21:20
raydiak I don't mind if it's this-or-that paradigm, as long as I don't find myself pouring over reams of text and getting my mind tied in knots trying to follow the execution path 21:21
FROGGS that was my problem, getting the execution path :o) 21:22
raydiak maybe I haven't seen the scary parts yet, then :)
just explored enough so far to figure out how to hook into the build process to call gen-libs.p6 21:24
heh otoh, that's the part which is currently broken 21:26
FROGGS *g*
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raydiak imma go take that shower before continuing my investigation...bbiab 21:29
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FROGGS ahh, I see the problem 21:30
lue Am I right in thinking POD5 doesn't allow =begin item to mean what it does it Pod6?
FROGGS the path in $where is '.work/1392758989_1', but when Build.pm is called panda already chdird to that path 21:31
that is why it is doubling it up
... Compiling lib/Math/ThreeD/Mat44.pm to mbc 21:32
tadzik: so we either pass cwd to Build.pm in Panda::Builder L61, or we should make $where absolute before calling indir 21:33
t/01-basics.t .. 1/? Cannot call 'is-approx'; none of these signatures match: 21:34
:(Vec3 $v1, Vec3 $v2, Any $desc?)
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FROGGS raydiak: I am going to bed now, feel free to pull request panda 21:41
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lizmat decommute& 21:54
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pmichaud good afternoon, #perl6 21:54
jnthn o/ pmichaud 21:56
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[Coke] \o 21:57
pmichaud (coming to you live from the third-largest state in the Union :-)
lue o/ pmichaud 21:58
jnthn hm, not Alaska or Texas then? 21:59
jnthn ponders where else is big...
CA?
[Coke] aye.
pmichaud Indeed, .ca.us . 22:03
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lue r: grammar G { proto token T { prestuff <...> } multi token T { \d } }; say "alive!" 22:27
camelia rakudo-parrot 9025c3, rakudo-jvm 9025c3, rakudo-moar 9025c3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter < (must be quoted to match literally)␤at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤------> rammar G { proto token T { prestuff <...⏏> } multi token T { \d …»
lue Am I doing something wrong there, or...? 22:28
timotimo i think <...> doesn't work yet
lue :( works in Perl6/Grammar.nqp though
timotimo oh? 22:29
hum :\
lue well, it's always { <...> } , but I don't see how pre-stuff would break it
r: grammar G { proto token T { <...> } multi token T { \d } }; say "alive!"
camelia rakudo-parrot 9025c3, rakudo-jvm 9025c3, rakudo-moar 9025c3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤------> grammar G { proto token T { <...> } ⏏multi token T { \d } }; say "alive!"␤ …»
lue r: grammar G { proto token T { <...> }; multi token T { \d } }; say "alive!"
camelia rakudo-parrot 9025c3, rakudo-jvm 9025c3, rakudo-moar 9025c3: OUTPUT«alive!␤»
lue timotimo: apparently, it's just the useless form of <...> that works right now :/ 22:30
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timotimo that's what i feared :( 22:30
jnthn No, a proto-token is always an immediate dispatch 22:32
lue jnthn: Darn, I was kinda hoping it'd work like proto method foo(|) { prestuff(); {*} } 22:33
jnthn I fear it's non-trivial to implement right.
lue: Maybe some day.
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lue Is it supposed to, or is it spec'd to only ever be { <...> } ? 22:33
timotimo ooooh, wednesday is coming up
jnthn lue: I don't recall seeing a spec example where you could do otherwise.
ah, there is one. 22:34
lue jnthn: for now, since my prestuff is just one '=', I can workaround it. So for me in this case, it's not super-critical 22:35
lue &
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jnthn But yeah, it's not hard to work around. Just declare another token that does <prestuff> <callproto> <poststuff> 22:35
The problem is that S05 seems to want the match object from the proto-dispatch to somehow be incorporated into the final one. 22:36
Which feels...odd.
But do-able I guess.
It'd likely need NFA work too. 22:37
timotimo what do we need to do to actually get the packfile API working properly? can it be done for this month's release? 22:44
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raydiak FROGGS++: thanks! hope you're sleeping well :) 22:50
lue jnthn: yeah, putting it proto is really mostly a semantics issue, not like there aren't ways around it. 22:58
timotimo that change has been brewing for a long time now
and now it's us who's keeping the feature from going in 22:59
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lue jnthn: I imagine the incorporation bit is to handle calls to specific multis, perhaps? 23:03
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jnthn lue: Perhaps. A bit tied up with a $dayjob task at the moment to really think about it. :) 23:15
lue That's alright, like I said, not critical for me at the moment :)
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lue r: say «foo:<bar>»; say «foo:bar» # please tell me this is a bug 23:18
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camelia rakudo-parrot 9025c3, rakudo-jvm 9025c3, rakudo-moar 9025c3: OUTPUT«foobar␤foo␤» 23:18
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lue n: say «foo:<bar>»; say «foo:bar» # please tell me this is a bug 23:18
camelia niecza v24-109-g48a8de3: OUTPUT«foo:<bar>␤foo:bar␤»
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timotimo wowza. «» is so broken! 23:19
lue Looks like I'll have to go with :rule('...') for now. :/
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lue oh, I guess I could use <> . Feels wrong though :) . 23:20
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jnthn You do knwo that colonpairs actually mean something in a «», right? 23:21
timotimo oh 23:22
well that could be something
lue jnthn: yeah, though I'd say that's too eager to find colonpairs.
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lue (didn't know before trying «» though ☺) 23:22
jnthn Yeah, S02 agrees 23:23
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jnthn r: say «foo:<bar>».perl; say «foo:bar».perl 23:24
camelia rakudo-parrot 9025c3, rakudo-jvm 9025c3, rakudo-moar 9025c3: OUTPUT«("foo", "bar")␤("foo", "bar" => Bool::True)␤»
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jnthn r: say :<bar> 23:24
camelia rakudo-parrot 9025c3, rakudo-jvm 9025c3, rakudo-moar 9025c3: OUTPUT«bar␤»
jnthn r: say :<bar>.perl
camelia rakudo-parrot 9025c3, rakudo-jvm 9025c3, rakudo-moar 9025c3: OUTPUT«"bar"␤»
jnthn Well, it's consistent if nothing else :) 23:25
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jnthn Anyway, I don't think it's "so broken", though arguably it might need to care more for whitespace. 23:26
The spec, or at least the bit of S02 I'm looking at, is a bit short of examples.
lue That's what I concluded of S02 too: not enough examples :)
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lue Is there any way I could do, say, my &g := aClassWith.aMethod ? 23:44
jnthn aClassWith.^find_method('aMethod') 23:45
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lue I get "Not enough positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 2" ; I have to pass something for 'self', don't I? 23:47
timotimo always pass the instance to methods of HOW
jnthn Not if you use .^ 23:48
timotimo oh, oops
that's the shortcut, right.
jnthn But maybe lue meant "when calling g later on..."
In which case yes, you looked up a method so it needs an invocant.
If you're doing this a lot, write a sub bind($obj, $meth) { -> |c { $obj."$meth"(|c) } } 23:49
timotimo .o(is that efficient?) 23:50
lue Hrm :/ All I want is to shorten POD5::Grammar.parse in a test file
I had it as $g.parse at one point, but that's still too much repetition :P
jnthn sub p($txt) { POD5::Grammar.parse($txt) }
:)
lue jnthn: $/ doesn't come out of the sub though
jnthn Try $/ := CALLER::<$/> 23:51
lue I was thinking I'd have to do something like that.
23:52 supernovus joined
supernovus Well, I'm out, just thought I'd mention, the tests for XML run in half the time on MoarVM versus Parrot (and approximately 5.5 times the time on JVM, ouch!) 23:59

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