»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, std:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by masak on 12 May 2015.
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raiph m: say 'ffl'.uc # (also even thornier stuff like 'i'.uc when locale is Turkish) RT #125556 01:07
synbot6 Link: rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display...?id=125556
camelia rakudo-moar 01edd3: OUTPUT«ffl␤»
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ssqq how to compiler foo.pm6 souce code to foo.movam binary file, then could run with moar foo.movam 01:43
dalek kudo-star-daily: 0e60149 | coke++ | log/ (9 files):
today (automated commit)
 01:47
rl6-roast-data: 41c8882 | coke++ | / (9 files):
today (automated commit)
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colomon_ Trying to install DateTime::TimeZone on latest rakudo moar via panda ends with “Aborted (core dumped)” 02:26
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raiph colomon_: ==> Successfully installed DateTime::TimeZone (perl6 -v --> This is perl6 version 2015.06-177-g01edd37 built on MoarVM version 2015.06-48-g017d184) 03:45
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dalek kudo/nom: a59ab30 | (Nick Logan)++ | src/core/IO/Path.pm:
remove Str.path leftovers in IO::Path.ACCEPTS

  ./perl6 -e 'say $*CWD.ACCEPTS($*CWD)';
Method 'abspath' not found for invocant of class 'Str'
   in block <unit> at -e:1		 04:02
kudo/nom: 365a1a6 | lizmat++ | src/core/IO/Path.pm:
Merge pull request #461 from ugexe/patch-8

remove Str.path leftovers in IO::Path.ACCEPTS
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dalek kudo/nom: e3d6b7d | lizmat++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp:
Make use of \$ \% \@ \& \\d a worry

Inspired by discussion started at
   irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-07-05#i_10852425
  ShimmerFairy++ geekosaur++ BenGoldberg++ timotimo++		 04:24
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dalek kudo/nom: cf65f54 | lizmat++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
Introduce "no worries" pragma

Worries (usually Perl 5 lookalike warnings) will not be emitted when a "no worries" pragma is used in that lexical scope.
Inspired by discussion at
   irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-07-05#i_10852580
  timotimo++ skids++ ShimmerFairy++ for inspiration		 04:39
lizmat m: my $a = \3 04:40
yoleaux 5 Jul 2015 22:13Z <skids> lizmat: you're probably already aware of it, but PR#454 will prevent Parameter.perl from emitting "\%" and "\&"
camelia ( no output )
lizmat $ 6 'my $a = \3'
Potential difficulties:
To refer to a positional match capture, just use $0 (numbering starts at 0). Parenthesize as \(...) if you intended a capture of a single numeric value.
$ 6 'no worries; my $a = \3'
(clean)
.tell skids tbh, I'm not completely following what's happening in PR454, so am reluctant to merge 04:41
yoleaux lizmat: I'll pass your message to skids.
lizmat commented on timotimo's PR 236 04:45
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skids lizmat: It's dealing with anonymous parameters like those found in protos. When you .perl those, what gets emitted cannot be parsed due to unspace, and there are some other obvious issues. 04:47
yoleaux 04:41Z <lizmat> skids: tbh, I'm not completely following what's happening in PR454, so am reluctant to merge
skids for example:
m: :($? is parcel).perl.say
camelia rakudo-moar 365a1a: OUTPUT«:(\?)␤»
skids m: :(\?).perl.say
camelia rakudo-moar 365a1a: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/HSN3sgLb1q␤Unable to parse expression in signature; couldn't find final ')' ␤at /tmp/HSN3sgLb1q:1␤------> 3:(\7⏏5?).perl.say␤ expecting any of:␤ constraint␤»
skids and 04:48
m: :($ is parcel where True).perl.say
camelia rakudo-moar 365a1a: OUTPUT«:(\ where { ... })␤»
skids m: :(\ where { ... }).perl.say 04:49
camelia rakudo-moar 365a1a: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/X1GmnYnPtV␤Cannot do non-typename cases of type_constraint yet␤at /tmp/X1GmnYnPtV:1␤------> 3:(\ where { ... }7⏏5).perl.say␤»
lizmat is there a ticket for these problems?
skids maybe for some of them. And some are new/my fault in that when I wrote the Parameter.sigil patch I didn't know what to do with 'is parcel' things. 04:50
lizmat with the GLR on its way, I'm not even sure "is parcel" is going to be a thing of the future 04:52
skids You think sigilless parameters will go away? 04:53
lizmat no, the "is parcel" thing 04:54
skids Well, currently "$ is parcel" and "\" are the same thing. 04:55
lizmat just learned something 04:58
m: sub a($a is parcel) { ++$a }; my $b = 42; say a $b 04:59
camelia rakudo-moar e3d6b7: OUTPUT«43␤»
lizmat m: sub a(\a) { ++a }; my $b = 42; say a $b
camelia rakudo-moar e3d6b7: OUTPUT«43␤»
skids At any rate, I'll either have to have the PR in, or replicate the code within the lexical scope of .assuming for my new .assuming code to be mergeable.
Yeah, the "sigilless" variables are actually bind-only things. So they'll surprise people trying to use them as such. 05:00
m: my \a = 1; a++
camelia rakudo-moar e3d6b7: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to an immutable value␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/LwWgR90gbV:1␤␤»
lizmat skids: I'm not too happy with '@$%&'.index($sigil).defined; 05:02
feels hacky 05:03
skids I could put it back to being a ~~ but I figured that was more efficient.
lizmat also, $name.substr(0,1) ne '\\' maybe better as !$name.starts-with('\\') ?
ah well, it's in a .perl, right?
dalek kudo/nom: 1c9ad4f | skids++ | src/core/Parameter.pm:
Handle "is parcel" better in Parameter.perl and Parameter.sigil

This modifies:
   Parameter.sigil to only be '\' when it would otherwise be '$' but
   the parameter 'is parcel'
   Parameter.perl to emit 'is parcel' in the cases where unspace
   would mess up a re-parse, not to emit '\%' or '\&' anymore
   and use 'is parcel' instead for those, and to correctly add an
   'is parcel' to '|c is parcel'. I don't know if the last one makes
   any sense, but if it doesn't it probably should not parse in the
   first place.		 05:04
kudo/nom: 6e8c751 | skids++ | src/core/Parameter.pm:
Remove redundant conditional
kudo/nom: 73297ef | lizmat++ | src/core/Parameter.pm:
Merge pull request #454 from skids/assuming

Handle "is parcel" better in Parameter.perl and Parameter.sigil
skids Yeah true. I didn't know about .starts-with. I could fix those up if you like as a separate commit.
lizmat: thanks a lot. 05:05
lizmat nah, that's ok
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skids I'll add some idempotency tests for those tomorrow. 05:09
skids up way too late.
as usual.
lizmat good night, skids! 05:11
lizmat up way too early
PSA: if anybody has anything of note to mention for the Perl 6 Weekly, let me know 05:12
expected publication time: around 12 hours from now (yes, I've done most of the work already) 05:13
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dalek kudo/nom: df5da3f | lizmat++ | src/core/Any.pm:
Remove unnecessary fouling of the namespace
 05:43
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dalek kudo/nom: f2d9c9f | lizmat++ | src/core/Any.pm:
Sanitize adverb error reporting
 06:06
lizmat catches up on some sleep 06:07
ShimmerFairy sleep well, lizmat o/
ugexe skids: strange error on windows for Sum, Cannot find method 'array[uint32]', testers.p6c.org/reports/55027.html 06:22
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ugexe fwiw, this shows that line itself normally works on the same machine: gist.github.com/ugexe/499a7adddb2550c3339e 06:30
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kanl is there a safer/more efficient way to find out the "width" of a range? it may be undesirable to { my $r = 1 .. 1000000000; $r.elems.say }. and since the bounds may not be integer, one subtracting them may also be undesirable.. 06:35
FROGGS since ranges can consist of arbitrary steps, only generating the list will give a correct answer I think 06:37
yoleaux 5 Jul 2015 21:31Z <brrt> FROGGS: if he cares enough about the 'system dynasm' option to object to me removing it
FROGGS .tell brrt Ummm, what?
yoleaux FROGGS: I'll pass your message to brrt.
kanl FROGGS: i guess i should rephrase my question, how would one determine the 'distance' between the bounds of a range? 06:39
m: my $r = 1 .. *; $r.elems.say; # this should be fast. 06:40
camelia rakudo-moar f2d9c9: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
kanl while 1 .. 1000000000 takes long. 06:41
FROGGS well... that sounds like subtracting is the best choice, no?
kanl but a .. aaaaaaaaaaaaa can't be simply subtracted 06:42
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FROGGS hmmmm 06:43
kanl please lemme know if i'm missing some simple and obvious solution if there's already one :)
Timbus do you not want .bounds
FROGGS seems like I'm not awake enough yet :o)
Timbus Range.bounds 06:44
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kanl m: my $r = a .. aaaaaaaaaaaaa; say [-] $r.bounds 06:44
camelia rakudo-moar f2d9c9: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/AUKqsu37xd␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix .. instead␤at /tmp/AUKqsu37xd:1␤------> 3my $r = a ..7⏏5 aaaaaaaaaaaaa; say [-] $r.bounds␤»
kanl m: my $r = 'a' .. 'aaaaaaaaaaaaa'; say [-] $r.bounds
camelia rakudo-moar f2d9c9: OUTPUT«Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '⏏a' (indicated by ⏏)␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/7T0QNNoYbu:1␤␤»
Timbus letters seems tricky, fair enough 06:45
kanl just noting that the current implementation of .elems of the Range type may not be efficient enough 06:46
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labster m: my $t = DateTime.now; say $t.second, " ", $t.whole-second; 06:52
camelia rakudo-moar f2d9c9: OUTPUT«45 45␤»
labster Woo, got it right on the seconds boundary! 06:53
(or not)
kanl imagines Range implemented as $min => $offset, then iterating/traversing would be calling .succ $offset number of times. 06:55
make that $offset + 1 :) 06:56
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kanl kind of a related question, is there a version of .succ that can take an offset? 07:00
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kanl i.e. something like { my $s = '01'; $s.succ( 3 ) } # gives '04' 07:01
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kanl would be hella nice and handy if there is already one. 07:02
labster m: say "01".succ(3); 07:03
camelia rakudo-moar f2d9c9: OUTPUT«Too many positionals passed; expected 1 argument but got 2␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/LZdrKZ5HmP:1␤␤»
FROGGS m: say ("01".succ xx 3) 07:04
camelia rakudo-moar f2d9c9: OUTPUT«02 02 02␤»
labster apparently not, but it's not a bad idea. Save you a loop
FROGGS err
labster: you just move the loop 07:05
kanl labster: it's not just a matter of looping. rather, it's directly getting there.
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kanl eagerly looping may not be a good idea, just saying. 07:06
labster m: my $s = "01"; $s.=succ for ^3; say $s;
camelia rakudo-moar f2d9c9: OUTPUT«04␤»
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FROGGS I think it is the same as with .lines calling .get repeatedly... 07:07
you can/should/want to implement .succ and .pred for your own type, and then everything will just work 07:08
labster Yes, but for some data types, we should just be able to add the integer instead of 1.
FROGGS allowing a parameter to .succ just makes it complex for your own implementation
true
labster class Cool { method succ(Int $x) { my \this = self; this.=succ for ^$x; this } } ? 07:12
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labster and then fast path ones we know how to do better? 07:12
kanl <more rant> also, to me a Range type being immmutable and without any kind of arithmetic operation is kinda limited. something like { 1 .. 4 ,& 2 .. 6 } getting 2 .. 4 would be pretty useful/practial stuff. that said, A Range object would need to be in a listy container. since some ops may result in "holes", i.e. subtraction 07:13
</rant>
labster m: say DateTime.new(now).second, " ", DateTime.now.second 07:15
camelia rakudo-moar f2d9c9: OUTPUT«10.460504 10␤»
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moritz kanl: I'd suggest you implement such operations as a module 07:24
kanl: and if many people use it, we can ponder its adaption into core 07:25
kanl moritz: that is what i'm doing. but my fu is weak :)
oha can I my regex foo { ... <foo>* ... } ?
moritz kanl: time to up your fu, I'd say :-)
oha: yes
though be careful that it always consumes at least one character, otherwise <foo>* will loop infinitely 07:26
oha moritz, it says "Method 'foo' not found for invocant of class 'Cursor'"
RabidGravy marnin!
moritz m: my regex foo { a }; say 'a' ~~ / <foo> /
camelia rakudo-moar f2d9c9: OUTPUT«｢a｣␤ foo => ｢a｣␤»
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moritz m: my regex foo { a <foo>* }; say 'aa' ~~ / <foo> / 07:26
camelia rakudo-moar f2d9c9: OUTPUT«Method 'foo' not found for invocant of class 'Cursor'␤ in regex foo at /tmp/vk4jJW0Q8H:1␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/vk4jJW0Q8H:1␤␤»
moritz huh
m: my regex foo { a <&foo>* }; say 'aa' ~~ / <foo> / 07:27
camelia rakudo-moar f2d9c9: OUTPUT«｢aa｣␤ foo => ｢aa｣␤»
moritz oha: I don't know why it works in /.../ and not 'my regex ... { }', but with <&foo>, it works
oha ok
moritz could be a bug
oha not sure what's the & for, but i will just blindly use it for now
moritz for lexical lookups
oha moritz, maybe it can't "unfold" it? 07:28
moritz oha: dunno
just like sub f() { }; say &foo.name
lexical routines are installed with a leading & in the lexpad
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kanl m: my $r = '1' .. 2; $r.bounds.map: { .WHAT.say }; $r.list.map: { .WHAT.say }; 07:46
camelia rakudo-moar f2d9c9: OUTPUT«(Str)␤(Int)␤(Str)␤(Str)␤»
kanl m: my $r = 1 .. '2'; $r.bounds.map: { .WHAT.say }; $r.list.map: { .WHAT.say }; 07:47
camelia rakudo-moar f2d9c9: OUTPUT«(Int)␤(Int)␤(Int)␤(Int)␤»
kanl why is .max.WHAT not necessarily consistent with .min.WHAT? 07:48
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DrForr Looking at that we clearly need a .FOX namespace in order to implement map{.FOX.say} :) 08:00
kanl what's .FOX? 08:02
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DrForr Nothing that exists right now, it's just a joke. 08:03
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jofNR_WkoCE
kanl www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF9R5aWFzkA 08:05
a better one to dance to, imho :)
DrForr I prefer his flat-floot floozie. :)
*foot 08:06
(which I can't find on YouTube.) 08:08
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El_Che 32q 08:21
oops 08:22
[ptc] El_Che: :wq :-P 08:23
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kanl does anyone object to me filing a bug on Range type's .elems being eager? 08:34
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vendethiel are worries "only" for p5-like errors? I'd love a pragma that disables *only that* :-). 08:35
(the commit messages says "usually", and I'm worried I'd disable other interesting warnings with a "no worries") 08:36
.oO( we should introduce a "be happy" version )
 08:37
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kanl [perl #125559] 08:45
synbot6 Link: rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display...?id=125559
vendethiel kanl: what other solution is there :)? 08:46
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kanl finding the distance between bounds seems a more viable solution, though not sure if it's doable. but one certainly/apparently does not have to eagerly loop over 1 .. * to for .elems to give Inf 08:49
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kanl that said, it is certainly doable in case of Int. 08:51
vendethiel kanl: for 1..*; we know we have an infinite loop
kanl and for 1..100000000?
m: (1..100000000000).elems.say; 08:52
camelia rakudo-moar f2d9c9: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
vendethiel that's not an infinite loop. but yes, calculating elem that way is probably not the best 08:54
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kanl therefore i'd like to consider i a bug :) 08:55
^it
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sjn has cleaned up pad.hackeriet.no/p/p6-deploy a little today. It's less of a braindump now, but would still benefit from some discussion 10:12
tadzik, daxim: ^
sjn is especially interested in thoughts on what of it may go into S11 :) 10:13
El_Che sjn: Having a look. What about application deployment like a [jwe]ar or fatpack? Out of scope? 10:15
sjn no 10:17
definitely not out of scope
El_Che: feel free to add a little about that :) 10:18
sjn thinks fatpack/[jwep]ar would be analogous to docker images 10:21
El_Che well, docker is what's in Vogue and the Cosmopolitan this week 10:22
but containers is not the answer for everything
a lightweight container is a heavy dependency :) 10:23
sjn nah, it depends 10:24
it's not like everyone *must* use buzzword-du-jour technology
El_Che there are no docker containers in Solaris (there are zones)
sjn but being "mindshare-compatible" is probably smart, therefore container-awareness
El_Che sure
sjn zones are close enough for my concern :) 10:25
(same goes for jails)
El_Che I mean, "next to a simple drag and drop method"
sjn that's a point too
El_Che what makes go a winner for sysadmins types now? just drop the binary and run
sjn mm. for user-facing installations, that's the way to go 10:26
(e.g. something like they do in OSX)
BUT
there's a missing bit here, which is really important
sjn hopes to get some thoughts about that from lizmat and FROGGS and perhaps tadzik: Is there a way to do modify the module search path from "the outside"? (e.g. if I install a Perl 6 application in a separate directory, what do I have to do to make "use" work with the modules that came bundled with the application? 10:28
nine sjn: perl6 -I and use lib just like in Perl 5? 10:29
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sjn sure, use lib could work 10:30
itz morning
nine Also there's %ENV<PERL6LIB>
sjn although I've never been a fan of putting relative paths into "use lib" or @INC (or whatever is Perl6's equivalent)
hm 10:31
PERL6LIB might work if one had a wrapper script or something like that for the application
itz: good *! 10:32
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nine A wrapper script, that could be generated by the installation mechanism 10:37
sjn isn't happy with that idea :-|
is there a way to get the current library search path from perl6? 10:39
sjn would hope it was available with "perl6 -V", but I can't see it at a first glanec 10:40
glace*
glance*
itz I'm still getting two test failures with OS X - t/spec/S24-testing/line-numbers.t and t/spec/S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.t
sjn looks at perl6 -V moar::libdir 10:42
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nine m: say @*INC 10:51
camelia rakudo-moar f2d9c9: OUTPUT«file#/home/camelia/.perl6/2015.06-186-gf2d9c9f/lib inst#/home/camelia/.perl6/2015.06-186-gf2d9c9f file#/home/camelia/rakudo-inst-1/share/perl6/lib file#/home/camelia/rakudo-inst-1/share/perl6/vendor/lib file#/home/camelia/rakudo-inst-1/share/perl6/site/lib…»
nine sjn: ^^^ 10:52
itz hmmm seems to be qqx relatged and in scrollback
^ related
masak good afternoon, #perl6 10:54
moritz \o, masak
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sjn nine: what's that #inst and #file prefix for? 11:14
good *, masak :)
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lizmat good *, #perl6! 11:21
sjn: they indicate the type of CompUnitRepo object that should be used
file# is for CompUnitRepo::Local::File
inst# is for CompUnitRepo::Local::Installation 11:22
sjn hm 11:24
FROGGS m: say CompUnitRepo::Local::File.short-id # obtained like this 11:25
camelia rakudo-moar f2d9c9: OUTPUT«file␤»
lizmat sjn: you can also write your own CompUnitRepo module, which you could use in an app 11:29
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dalek line-Perl5: 78008b5 | (Stefan Seifert)++ | / (2 files):
Support named parameters of .new method of imported P5 classes.

use Foo:from<Perl5>; Foo.new(foo => 'custom');		 11:43
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DrForr Hee. I *think* I was needing that over the weekend. 11:53
nine DrForr: why didn't you say so? :) Have been debugging all Saturday and this would have been a nice easy fix in between ;) 11:57
DrForr As you may have seen I was working on something else :)
dalek kudo/nom: 626f906 | lizmat++ | src/core/ (2 files):
Mogrify adverb slice logic into an Exception

So that we can properly test for them. This should probably be run at compile time somehow, but for now runtime will do.		 12:02
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DrForr Getting a failure here in t/from.t - Looks like you're assuming Moose is installed. 12:18
nine: ^^^^ 12:20
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[Coke] moritz: regarding your rant, you can coerce types in signatures, if you want. several core subs do that, IIRC. 12:28
DrForr nine: Maybe change Moose to a core Perl5 module name instead? (I haven't looked at the test.) 12:30
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masak nine: github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5/pull/26 12:37
nine++ # Inline::Perl5
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dalek line-Perl5: 2618b36 | masak++ | README.md:
fix s/cought/caught/ typo
 12:38
line-Perl5: 3325ebd | niner++ | README.md:
Merge pull request #26 from masak/patch-1

fix s/cought/caught/ typo
nine masak: thanks for fixing my spelling errors!
timotimo *cough* *cough* 12:39
dalek line-Perl5: 7bfcb32 | (Stefan Seifert)++ | t/ (2 files):
Fix test failing if Moose is not installed

Move the new test to t/from.t which already checks for Moose.		 12:42
nine DrForr: fixed. Thanks for the report! I want to specifically test Moose there, since it's very importent in the Perl 5 world.
masak important* ;) 12:45
or, less likely, impotent*
nine I guess, I shouldn't try to spell anything today
El_Che masak: lol
nine Moose is quite potent, I assure you :) 12:46
El_Che when it hasn't drink too much anyway
masak nine: "Today is a day for eschewing convention and embarking on a creative endeavor." :P
El_Che even my answer sounds drunk
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itz is there any simple way to use File::Find on more than one thread? 12:48
masak decommute &
jnthn yoleaux: I can haz messages??? 12:49
yoleaux 4 Jul 2015 19:45Z <hoelzro> jnthn: could you weigh in on irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2015-07-04#i_10848766 if you have some time?
dalek kudo/nom: d2faa16 | lizmat++ | src/core/Any.pm:
Make sure nogo's are repeatable
12:52 atroxaper left
oha is there a better way? multi sub f(Str $uri, ...) { return callwith(URI.new($uri), ...); } 12:54
other than having URI inherits from Cool :) 12:55
jnthn return callwith(...) is better spelled nextwith
oha jnthn, right. still, if i have a dozen of multis with URI, i need to make another dozen with the combinations of Str 12:56
jnthn hoelzro: Multi-dispatch will never consider a native candidate for a boxed argument, 'cus otherwise that candidate would always mean we ignore the boxed one. And we really have to hit the Int candidate for int.
hoelzro: Uh, *for Int. Otherwise we go truncating big integers all over the place.
We are a little more liberal with only subs, since it doesn't much hurt to Make It Work there. 12:57
hoelzro jnthn: alright, thanks for weighing in(t)!
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leont What is the new way to do 􏿽xAB@foo = $a ?? foo !! Nil􏿽xBB? 13:01
I just tried 􏿽xAB()􏿽xBB but it didn't seem to DWIM 13:02
lizmat s/Nil/()
ah> 13:03
?
leont (erm, may be PEBKEC)
I changed it, but precompiled versions weren't automatically updated.
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lucasb m: say Real.new 13:06
camelia rakudo-moar 626f90: OUTPUT«Memory allocation failed; could not allocate 8192 bytes␤»
lucasb I think this is because Real.Str calls .Bridge, that calls .Num, that calls .Bridge again, etc.
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[Coke] m: say Real.new(3) 13:09
camelia rakudo-moar 626f90: OUTPUT«Default constructor for 'Real' only takes named arguments␤ in any at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:1676␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/hr1f2WfYnA:1␤␤»
timotimo it occurs to me that a channel with many irc bots is kind of like a shared commandline 13:12
dalek ast: 887c43f | lizmat++ | S32-array/adverbs.t:
Tests for array slice adverb exception handling
 13:13
leont Why can't I get a Proc::Status from a Proc? 13:14
timotimo oha: you could spell the type in your multi subs "URI(Str)" that way you'd get them coerced
leont And why do some docs say run/shell returns one and others the other􏿽x85
timotimo leont: probably have to wait for it to exit?
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leont That sounds logical, but there's no wait method documented 13:15
timotimo hm
timotimo hasn't looked into the new things yet
nine Phew!
[ptc] maybe wait just isn't documented yet?
leont Trying it out now
No such method 'wait' for invocant of type 'Proc'
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nine Today, I've for the first time tried to use Inline::Perl5 for a real program and instantly hit two bugs. The one I fixed earlier and a very strange utf8-related one. Just about 5 hours later, I've finally proven it to be a Perl 5 or URI::Encode bug :) 13:17
Or....not :(
itz is there any doc for gather/take? 13:18
nine itz: look for take 13:19
leont It seems foo.?bar doesn't work anymore on a type object (or at least I think it used to) 13:20
itz nine: ah 13:21
leont Does anyone have a working example of run(:out)? 13:22
dalek p/multidim: a9dedf4 | jnthn++ | t/moar/02-multidim.t:
Tests for cloning a multi-dim array.
 13:23
lucasb Interesting that Proc::Status in IO/Handle.pm says it'll be removed together with pipe(). run/shell return a Proc object, but I didn't see any way to wait for the process to finish. 13:25
dalek ast: 665d368 | lizmat++ | S32-array/adverbs.t:
Add array slice callable adverb tests
 13:27
leont Yeah, this seems rather unfinished 13:29
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lucasb I made a mistake; I think run do waits for the process to finish before returning :) 13:33
I tried: run('bash', '-c', 'sleep 2; echo foo'); say 'ok'
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lucasb say run('bash', '-c', 'exit 42').status +> 8 # says 42 13:35
PerlJam lucasb: note that there's also Proc.exitcode (so that you don't have to do the bitshift dance) 13:37
lucasb PerlJam: yeah, thanks :) also: +run(...) 13:38
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leont Well, my code relies on Proc::Status, because it was previously handling input from Proc::Async 13:42
And Proc::Status was actually pretty useful, since it provides the abstraction but also the raw data 13:43
oha m: use URI; sub f(URI(Str) $x) { ... }; f("x.com");
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find URI in any of:␤ file#/home/camelia/.perl6/2015.06-188-gd2faa16/lib␤ inst#/home/camelia/.perl6/2015.06-188-gd2faa16␤ file#/home/camelia/rakudo-inst-2/share/perl6/lib␤ file#/home/camelia/rakudo-inst-2/share/perl6/ven…»
oha timotimo, nice, but i can't make it to work. any reference or keywords I should look for? right now it fails with: Method 'URI' not found for invocant of class 'Str' 13:44
timotimo oha: maybe you get URI with "star:"
oh, of course
dalek ast: 87dd187 | lizmat++ | S32-hash/adverbs.t:
Tests for hash slice adverb exception handling
timotimo yeah, you can install a candidate for the coercion multi, i forgot what it's called; COERCE perhaps?
oha timotimo, my problem tho is that i can't find any reference in the docs, so i can't dig it on my own
lizmat timotimo: I don't think COERCE is implemented, or completely thought out for that matter 13:45
timotimo mhm
oha i just found something on S13
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tadzik oha: hmm, I wonder if one could make sub f($uri as URI) work 13:48
oh, a solution came up already
timotimo didn't we deprecate the "as" syntax?
no, not a solution, sadly
tadzik I don't know, did we? :)
oha tadzik, same same
timotimo it seems like it's still in there 13:49
problem is, currently the coercion type syntax relies on the type coming in to have a method that can coerce into the type you want
tadzik rihgt
you could augment it!
tadzik hides
nine Ok, it really is a bug in Perl 5's URI! 13:50
timotimo nine: hooray!
nine And in Geo::Coder::OSM as well. URI::query_form cannot deal with a mix of Unicode string/UTF-8 encoded parameters and Geo::Coder::OSM is manually encoding one parameter (though it works without) and passing through others. 13:52
lucasb m: say Rational 13:53
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«No appropriate parametric role variant available for 'Rational'␤ in any specialize at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:2470␤ in any compose at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:2780␤ in any make_pun at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:1641␤ in any find_method at src/gen/m…»
lucasb I know Real and Rational are roles, not objects. I was just playing with printing them.
Do you think it would make sense to have default parameters of [Int,Int] in Rational, like Rational[::Nu = Int, ::De = Int] ?
tadzik m: say i*Rational
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«No appropriate parametric role variant available for 'Rational'␤ in any specialize at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:2470␤ in any compose at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:2780␤ in any make_pun at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:1641␤ in any find_method at src/gen/m…»
nine Could easily happen in a pure Perl 5 application as well. Inline::Perl5 just makes it more probable, since all strings get their UTF-8 flag set.
tadzik :(
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PerlJam Inline::Perl5++ sussing out Perl 5 bugs :) 13:55
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leont Yay! It seems the synchronous TAP::Parser is actually working as intended now :-) 13:56
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[Coke] timotimo: how is that a problem? 14:02
like, if we had a coercion to Int, and you passed in some random object... how would that work without a method to call? 14:03
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leont And it seems Proc::Status simply stopped existing or some such 14:07
PerlJam [Coke]: If there were a generic coercion thingy (presumably that's what COERCE is supposed to be). Something like: multi sub COERCE(Thingy, Int) returns Int { ... } 14:09
lucasb For the coercion Foo(Bar) to work, there must be a Bar.Foo method, right? Would make sense for the coercion to also search for a Foo.new(Bar) method? 14:10
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oha lucasb, and which one should win, if both are present? 14:11
lucasb maybe first try Bar.Foo, then search Foo.new(Bar) ? :)
oha (can i suggest a warning when you use $1 when there is only 1 capture block? it took me a while to understand why it matched but didn't captured) 14:12
PerlJam oha: that sounds like a good idea. Similar to the P5 "variable used only once" message I guess. 14:13
oha lucasb, so you are saying that Bar is better at knowing how Foo should be created, then Foo?
PerlJam, the fact that it is undefined my trigger the warning, but yeah... i didn't expected the first was $0 so i spent some time to realize it 14:14
lucasb class Bar { method Foo { Foo.new(self or some such) }
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oha lucasb, that's the easy case, and it will probably be symmetric then. but what if the coercion is more complex? 14:15
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oha Bar.new(a,b); Foo.Bar() { Bar.new(x,y); } 14:16
lucasb oha: I don't know. Either Foo or Bar will have to know how to convert between each other. Just brainstorming ideas... :) 14:18
oha what if there is a multi sub coerce(From, To) { } ? 14:19
timotimo i think something like that was planned, yeah 14:21
dalek kudo/nom: d9c1e26 | timotimo++ | src/core/Failure.pm:
make Failure objects a tiny bit smaller
 14:22
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timotimo does someone with JS (and perhaps angular in particular) skills want to have a look at the profiler template in nqp's repository? 14:25
a) it's quite slow and allegedly upgrading to the next angular version gives a nice speed boost "for free", but just uping the version makes all ng-show attributes stop working
b) the breadcrumb navigation in the call graph section is easily flustered and then there's no way to go back to the root of the call graph; perhaps a universal "up" navigation button that's failsafe would be nice 14:26
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dalek p/multidim: 472df2c | jnthn++ | t/moar/02-multidim.t:
Test special-case 2D/3D array access ops.
 14:28
p/multidim: cb7e790 | jnthn++ | t/moar/02-multidim.t:
Tests for serialize/deserialize of MultiDimArray.
p: 188d7e0 | jnthn++ | tools/build/MOAR_REVISION:
Bump to MoarVM with multi-dim array support.
 14:29
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dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 16 commits to nqp by jnthn 14:30
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lucasb m: .say for Int.new, Num.new, Rat.new 14:36
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«0␤0␤0␤»
lucasb m: Complex.new
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«Cannot call new(Complex: ); none of these signatures match:␤ (Complex $: Real \re, Real \im, *%_)␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/bkPrAioNog:1␤␤»
lucasb Do you think it would make sense to have a default value of 0+0i for complex numbers as well?
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PerlJam might as well if we have defaults for the others 14:39
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jnthn m: use Test; sub foo(::T) { { my T $b; is $b, Int; } }; foo(1) 14:51
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«Method 'defined' not found for invocant of class 'T'␤ in sub is at lib/Test.pm:113␤ in sub foo at /tmp/a0NNpLccJr:1␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/a0NNpLccJr:1␤␤»
timotimo i didn't break that with my recent signature lowering work, did i? 14:52
jnthn timotimo: No 14:53
lucasb m: sub foo(::T) { my T $b; say $b }; foo(1) 14:57
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
lucasb m: sub foo(::T) { { my T $b; say $b } }; foo(1)
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«Method 'gist' not found for invocant of class 'T'␤ in sub foo at /tmp/GSlPTQKx6t:1␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/GSlPTQKx6t:1␤␤»
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dalek kudo/nom: 87687ea | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/GenericHOW.nqp:
Look in outer scopes for type var instantiation.

Fixes RT #125537.		 14:58
ast: 201f031 | jnthn++ | S06-signature/type-capture.t:
Test for RT #125537.
 14:59
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lucasb m: say .perl for <1/2>, <1/3> 15:02
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«0.5␤<1/3>␤»
lucasb Shouldn't Rats always have a .perl representation as Rats? There is special casing for multiples of 2 and 5 in Rat.perl
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smls jnthn: I've been thinking more about the situation with `method elems` for custom Positional types. Would it be possible for the Positional role to provide a default implementation which simply dies when called, and overrides the one from Any that always returns 1 ? 15:05
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smls That would force positional containers to implement it themselves, while other things would sill get the one from Any. 15:06
jnthn smls: Hmm, may be workable 15:07
The role doesn't require much of anything at the moment... 15:09
Thing is though
AT-POS is the exact same situation
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jnthn Also, I fear that, since you may want to write a multi elems, we'd end up making a mess for folks 15:10
lizmat PSA: Perl 6 Weekly will be published in about 4 hours from now: let me know anything newsworthy I should let the world know about 15:11
jnthn ('cus you normally *do* just want to implement the :D case)
lizmat meanwhile, I'm cycling&
jnthn lizmat: I got done with the key MoarVM underpinning for multi-dimensional arrays (including having things like a 3x3x3 int array being a single packed blob of memory) 15:12
lizmat: And will work next on Perl 6 level support for this.
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jnthn Guess that's my main news :) 15:12
smls jnthn: As for "expecting authors to remember implementing .elems", it looks like you didn't implement it in CArray for example... :P
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smls $my-native-array[*-1] silently overrides the first elem, rather than dying with "sorry, a native array can't know its length" 15:13
[Coke] Any sixers in NYC? I'll be down near penn station for 2 days this week.
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virtualsue bah, i made a branch off MoarVM instead of a fork 15:14
virtualsue needs to level up on git wizardry 15:15
jnthn smls: And...it's apparently taken until now for it to not bite anyone :P 15:17
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itz virtualsue: the "github" wrapper "git" allows "git fork" 15:18
dalek kudo/nom: 37f384e | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/BOOTSTRAP.nqp:
Actually return instantiated Scalar.

Fixes RT #124940.		 15:23
ast: 0210f20 | jnthn++ | S06-signature/type-capture.t:
Unfudge test for RT #124940.
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smls What's the recommended way to restrict a method to defined invocants, without using a custom invocant parameter name instead of self? 15:24
method elems (:D:) { ...} ?
method elems (Any:D $:) { ... } ?
moritz method elems (::?CLASS:D:) { ... } 15:25
iirc I've specced (aka speculated) a bare :D to default to the invocant type, but it's not implemented
smls ok 15:26
nine Sounds like a very common use case 15:27
smls I guess making :D the default and requiring an explicit :U or :_ or :* for accepting type objects, would be too radical at this point? :P
nine: Indeed
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skids I'd say that's useful not just for invocants. But might conflict with adverb literals. If that turns out to be a big deal maybe *:D? 15:29
dalek ast: c24974b | jnthn++ | S05-capture/dot.t:
Correct test identified in RT #125003.

It wrongly assumed that a Capture matched multiple times stringifies to the final match, whereas it's actually an array of all of them.
ugexe lucasb: my $proc = run("$*EXECUTABLE", "-e", "say 1; die", :out); say "out: {$proc.out.lines}"; 15:31
smls m: dd Array.elems
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«0␤»
smls ^^ the buil-in containers don't seem to restrict stuff to defined invocants
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smls m: dd (Array)[5] 15:31
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«$v = Any␤»
smls looks like undefined arrays behave like empty arrays :P 15:32
skids smls: autoviv.
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smls Hm. Are you sure that's not a separate mechanism? 15:33
itz grrr I want gather/take in perl5 now :)
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moritz smls: there many built-ins that restrict methods to defined invocants 15:33
m: say DateTime.later(:1hour) 15:34
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«Cannot look up attributes in a type object␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/SQsVKV4wzI:1␤␤»
moritz hm
:(
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smls method later (DateTime $: *%unit) ;) 15:34
nine It's less that they restrict and more that they explode ;)
smls looks like it 15:35
moritz mlenz@mlenz-workstation:~/p6/rakudo (nom)$ git grep ':D:'|wc -l 15:36
977
m: Buf.push(42)
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable Buf␤ in any at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:1676␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/0UflDs2Cm0:1␤␤»
moritz m: say Code.static_id
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«Invocant requires a 'Code' instance, but a type object was passed. Did you forget a .new?␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/GuNV8RynSn:1␤␤»
moritz finally :-)
m: say Num.isNaN 15:37
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«Invocant requires a 'Num' instance, but a type object was passed. Did you forget a .new?␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/LMCzJRKQJe:1␤␤»
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TimToady lizmat: if you like, you can mention that I've been privately prototyping the new non-flattening list and array semantics to see where the new gotchas will be 15:43
smls re. changing the default: It wouln't have to be changing "Type:" to mean "Type:D:" by default. Just make it so that when no explicit invocant is specified at all, it assumes "::?CLASS:D:" instead of "::?CLASS:". 15:44
TimToady that doesn't work for constructors
smls so, constructors would have to specify an explicit invocant 15:45
RabidGravy theoretically would be it be possible for .assuming() to return a Code with a "proper" signature based on the original one?
smls but most other methods wouldn't have to anymore. 15:46
ugexe speaking of assuming, it doesn't work on jvm :(
skids RabidGravy: yes I have a patch. I will subit it tonight.
RabidGravy skids++ # nice one
jnthn dinner & 15:47
lucasb ugexe: thanks for that run() snippet. that is about that S24-testing/line-numbers.t test?
geekosaur belated lizmat++
ugexe i saw you and leont asking how to use run
geekosaur running on way too little sleep... pity today's schedule disallows a nap
lucasb ugexe: oh, ok 15:48
skids RabigGravy: You can test this fork if you're up for it: github.com/skids/rakudo/commit/975...8856e2e240
leont lizmat++ # P6 Weekly caused me to update TAP::Parser for synchronous support :-) 15:50
timotimo ooh awesome 15:51
lizmat++
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leont I'm currently organizing my code into multiple files with multiple related classes. It seems precompilation isn't agreeing with this notion, any suggestions? 16:16
Is this a common issue? Should I reorganize? 16:17
ugexe sounds like you need to rewrite your META file
provides section specifically
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leont Right, I had a pull request for that! 16:19
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leont Without description, so I didn't realize it might be related 16:20
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timotimo yeah, without the "provides", the "use" statement will not find stuff 16:22
dalek ast: 557532a | (Lucas Buchala)++ | S24-testing/line-numbers.t:
Change use of qx// to run() in test
 16:23
ugexe i believe it may have more to do with building the dependency order by mapping namespaces to file paths
leont The PR doesn't seem to have fixed it, but it is missing classes so I guess I should amend it further
16:24 atroxaper left
lucasb ^^ please review if everything is fine with my commit, thanks 16:24
ugexe you should trace the build order and see if you think it looks correct
leont It does actually 16:25
􏿽xABCannot invoke this object (REPR: Null, cs = 0)􏿽xBB is not a very helpful error
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ugexe i say that because im not sure panda parses dependency order for provides correctly when there are multiple namespaces mapped to a single path 16:28
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ugexe as in, the topological sort should not count FILE.pm with class A and class B twice if FILE2.pm depends on class A and class B 16:29
is it on the ecosystem that i can pull down? 16:31
timotimo lizmat: perhaps you can put my call for help for the profiler template into the weekly to find someone with js experience and a bit of free time? 16:32
leont Yes, as TAP::Harness 16:33
dha Assignment operators. Can one assume that they work similarly in p6 to the way they do in p5? S03 indicates so, but the operators document at docs.perl6.org only documents C<=> and C<< => >>. 16:34
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dha Also, the string coercing bitwise operators now experimentally in p5 (C<&.=>, etc.) ... I'm guessing they're probably not in p6 16:35
?
ugexe oh i see what you mean 16:36
for now, you probably need to declare the entire name. 16:37
package TAP { class Generator {
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ugexe probably has to be TAP::Generator for the current build order to be generated in its current fashion 16:38
leont I see 16:42
Well, at least that isn't a very big change :-)
Though I'm doing that in multiple places􏿽x85 :-/ 16:43
ugexe jvm is failign to build during .\perl6-j.bat --target=jar --output=lib/Test.pm.jar -Ilib lib/Test.pm on both windows and linux 16:44
[Coke] getting a spectest failure on os x locally: Unable to execute 'PERL6_BINARY=/Users/williamcoleda/sandbox/rakudo/perl6 sh t/spec/S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.sh 7 1024' in block <unit> at t/spec/S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.t:170 16:49
timotimo dha: but => isn't an assignment operator 16:50
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[Coke] guessing that PERL6_BINARY isn't being passed through somewhere. 16:51
dha Well, operators lists it under "Item Assignment Precedence" so, although I can see how one might say "that defines the precedence level, rather than the operators in that precedence level", it's confusing in that respect.
16:52 AlexDaniel left
TimToady m: say Int.new 16:53
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«0␤»
TimToady is there any use case for Int.new returning 0 rather than blowing up?
ShimmerFairy my Int $a; defaulting to 0, perhaps? 16:54
TimToady m: my Int $a; say $a
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
TimToady doesn't
dalek ast: cf81ec2 | coke++ | / (31 files):
kebab case skip-rest

Even in comments and old fudges.
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[Coke] TimToady: he's suggesting that maybe that's why it doesn't. 16:55
... oh. I see what camelia says tehre. nevermind. 16:56
nine TimToady: as always the non-existence of a use-case is much harder to prove than the existence.
timotimo "i want a new instance of what i was given, so i'll just call .new on the thing i was given"?
[Coke] lots of failures in the last moar-jit spectest run:
github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/b....out#L3891
ShimmerFairy TimToady: to be honest, I'm not sure there's much of a use-case for Int.new in user code :P
ugexe m: my $x = Int.new; my $y = Int; say 1 if $x; say 2 if $y # i guess the expectation of this is the question 16:57
camelia ( no output )
ShimmerFairy [Coke]: Were you referring to me just then, ooc?
TimToady yes (s)he was :)
ShimmerFairy I wasn't sure, because I'm not a he :) 16:58
TimToady: I was reminded of something a bit earlier: Should ~& and friends _really_ still be coercing strings to buffers? I'm of the opinion that you should explicitly convert to the buffer you want if you need to use the "stringwise" bit ops. 16:59
PerlJam Is Int.new how we autoviv? 17:00
TimToady don't think so
ShimmerFairy: it's more like "ABCD" should be considered an allomorphic literal if used by a buffer op 17:01
17:02 FROGGS joined
smls so it should throw an exception when given a Str that has non-ASCII chars? 17:02
TimToady that has been suggested
17:02 dakkar left
ShimmerFairy I'd prefer it warn you and leave the consequences of not being more specific to the programmer :) 17:02
TimToady or possibly non-Latin-1
for a use case, see rosettacode.org/wiki/Find_the_missi...ion#Perl_6 17:03
17:04 leont left
ShimmerFairy If you do limit the range of allowable characters, I think 7-bit ASCII is just a bit too restrictive. 17:04
TimToady I think the RC entry needs 8 bits, at least
Juerd ShimmerFairy: It's the only thing you can re-encode to most other currently fashionable encodings without changing the binary representation, so ASCII does make sense. 17:05
ShimmerFairy Juerd: sure, but I think allowing 0x80..0xFF single-byte representations isn't too much to ask for :) 17:06
Juerd If it would allow latin1, then what does that even mean? Does it allow utf8 encoded source code with only code points under 256, or should the source itself be latin1 encoded? And isn't it a bit weird to auto-decode as latin1 for a binary-as-in-data operator?
ShimmerFairy: There's the thing, there's no easy way to even get those in your code if your editor (TEXT editor) is but a bit sane. 17:07
ShimmerFairy Juerd: this is why I've always thought the ~ style bitops shouldn't accept strings, and force you to convert to the buffer you want :)
TimToady: that is a pretty nice use-case though. 17:08
smls Juerd: I don't think that problem applies here
Juerd Maybe we just need different delimiters for binary data.
q:base64/.../ # :)
smls If you have a Str, you already know the meaning of each char unambiguously
timotimo q:hexdump:to<end> 17:09
Juerd smls: What's the "meaning" of a character in binary-as-in-data context?
timotimo: <3
smls well, in the case proposed above, latin-1 by default
Juerd smls: I think that that case makes less sense than restricting to ASCII.
TimToady sometimes prohibiting nonsense also prohibits sense 17:10
Juerd utf-8 encoded latin1-compatible codepoints aren't binary data.
ShimmerFairy I like to think of the potential acceptable range as "Characters U+0000 through U+00FF encoded in UTF-32, but with only the least significant byte kept" :P
Juerd ASCII is the only thing that we're still using where text and binary are specced as the same thing. 17:11
iso8859 as a thing you might want to mention anywhere in your documentation or source made sense when Perl 6 was conceived, but it's 2015 now :) 17:12
TimToady thing is, xoring sets high bits; do we require people to xor an even number of times?
smls TimToady: Your rosetta solution could be made to work by adding a simple ».encode("latin-1") right?
ShimmerFairy It would, but it would look slightly less nice, I'd have to admit.
TimToady just ».encode will work
since UTF-8 is fine for ASCII 17:13
smls right
[Coke] ShimmerFairy, TimToady: apologies.
ugexe latin-1 wont explode on invalid utf-8 though i thought
ShimmerFairy [Coke]: don't worry too much about it, I was getting it wrong until not too long ago myself :P 17:14
I personally think Latin1 is the best choice if some sort of limit ends up being used. 17:16
TimToady rejoices that all kinds of people feel safe here, except maybe trolls
ShimmerFairy TimToady: well, I'm not the first of my kind here, so that helps :)
Latin1 is the most common extension of ASCII (as I understand it), so it would cover a lot of cases. And if it doesn't do the right thing for you, then there's always .encode() 17:17
|Tux| safe is so relative. sometime the info I get here almost makes my brain explode. hence not safe
TimToady m: say (~^'ABCD').WHAT 17:19
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«(Failure)␤»
masak ShimmerFairy: [backlogging] I just want to say congratulations on the -- as au++ would say -- runtime polymorphism. :D
ShimmerFairy wonders how possible it is to argue that Unicode is actually the most common extension of ASCII nowadays...
masak: thanks :3 17:20
masak ShimmerFairy: now the change in nick makes a bit more sense, too.
I mean, the timing of it. 17:21
PerlJam masak: good save :) 17:22
ShimmerFairy masak: yes, my previous nick was almost comically gendered once the issue came up :)
masak ShimmerFairy: strangely, yes. I don't really know *why* your prev nick would count as gendered, but it somehow does. 17:23
ShimmerFairy masak: first names like "Lou" are homophones to "lue", that's why
masak oooooh
good thing you found a nick that's hardly gendered at all :P :P :P 17:24
TimToady notes the relationship of rnd with shimmer however :)
17:25 zakharyas joined
RabidGravy (I may have somewhat overstated the simplicity of the libmp3lame binding - it's got about a billion optional parameters) 17:26
masak RabidGravy: well, you know what they say. first, make it work. then, support all the billion optional paramters.
timotimo RabidGravy: how does C handle optional parameters? 17:27
ShimmerFairy I worked with the theora library once, and I remember my biggest headache was dealing with the YUV colorspace (which of course isn't the library's fault)
RabidGravy masak, yup 17:28
moritz timotimo: usually by having a struct with a member for each option
timotimo: and allowing them to be NULL
ShimmerFairy C doesn't let you assign default values to parameters? 17:29
moritz nope
and variadic functions are a pain in C 17:30
RabidGravy timotimo, moritz in common with most libraries of this genre it has a static opaque "handle" and a squillion get/set functions
|Tux| new Capture warning makes me need to change a sheet in my talk :) 17:31
masak progress++ # \o/ 17:32
moritz RabidGravy: better than MUMPS (a FORTRAN library) where you set all the options yourself in that not-opaque-enough handle
|Tux| (staying in touch)++
FWIW I don't really like the fact that it is a single line. It doesn't read well 17:34
Potential difficulties:
To pass an array, hash or sub to a function in Perl 6, just pass it as is.
For other uses of Perl 5's ref operator consider binding with ::= instead.
Parenthesize as \(...) if you intended a capture of a single variable.
at -e:1
------> my @a = 1,2; $a = \?@a; $a.WHAT.say
that reads much better
masak |Tux|: agreed. care to change it? 17:35
|Tux| *I* won't :)
masak oh... :/ pity.
ShimmerFairy |Tux|: but you just did! (see backlog)
masak .oO( whaddya take me for, a *core* developer!? )
|Tux| err, yes! 17:36
17:36 beastd joined
geekosaur I did look around for other long warnings and they didn't seem to be autowrapped 17:36
er, not auto-, hard-
|Tux| this one is exceptionally long
ShimmerFairy (btw, if 'no worries' ends up blocking other, not-P5 warnings, I wonder if it would be worth it to have a new kind of warning for P5 warnings, <.p5ism("...")> or such) 17:37
geekosaur there was an earlier suggestion to have typed warnings like there are typed errors/exceptions currently
moritz ShimmerFairy: we already have <.obs> for obsoletion warnings 17:38
ugexe timotimo: your last commit seems to be where jvm stops building
ShimmerFairy moritz: should the Perl 5 warnings prefer <.obs> then?
geekosaur: For some reason I'm reminded of how the C preprocessor has #error but not #warning (discounting GCC's nonstandard support for it) 17:40
moritz yes
ShimmerFairy: I thought they did already
ShimmerFairy moritz: the 'no worries' pragma came about to block Perl 5-based <.worry> messages (by blocking all <.worry> messages) 17:41
17:42 rindolf joined, zakharyas left
[Coke] "perl6 core" "who's your friend?" # throwback to an ancient chip & dale cartoon, yikes. 17:43
moritz ShimmerFairy: doing a "git grep '\.obs'" and a "git grep '\.worry'", I get the impression that there is more p5 specific with <.obs> than with <.worry>
but then <.obs> is fatal, so you cannot easily disable it
ShimmerFairy Hm. Well, the point of 'no worries' is to not tell people like me about how the Perl 5 code I'm trying to wrote won't DWIM, because I don't know any Perl 5 in the first place. 17:45
*write
itz_ I think the more common case is people knowing Perl 5 17:46
dha And, now... annoying questions about heredocs... :-) 17:47
masak yay
dha The heredoc docs include this line: C<my $escaped = escaque(q:to/TERMINATOR/, language => 'html');>. Should I assume that "escaque" "esacape" there? and, if so, is there actually an C<escape> function? 17:48
ShimmerFairy itz_: sure, that's why the warnings are on by default. I just want to turn off the warnings that mean nothing to me :)
smls dha: I think that's just meant do show how one can use a heredoc inside an expression 17:50
*to
dha Also, the heredoc strings are specified as, e.g. C</END/> for "END". Are these regexes, or some odd quoting construct specific to heredoc syntax?
smls - Well, yes, but I don't have any idea what an "escaque" is, and it might confuse people. 17:51
smls escaque() is not a built-in function; just meant as a hypothetical example
moritz dha: not a regex
m: say qw/foo bar baz/.join('|')
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«foo|bar|baz␤»
moritz the quoter/.../ thingy isn't reservied for heredocs
smls dha: Right, it might be clearer to change it to "my-escaping-function(" 17:52
dha moritz - ah. So those are just part of the quoting operator syntax, and could just as easily be C<q:to{TERMINATOR}>
smls - ok. I think I'll patch that so it makes more sense.
dalek c: 0178965 | moritz++ | lib/Language/quoting.pod:
Try to clarify example for heredocs, dha++
 17:53
moritz dha: I'm afraid I'm faster :-)
dha Finally (I think).
moritz - No worries. As long as it gets done.
:-)
ShimmerFairy Yes, the use of // to delimit is simply a convention that's developed over time. (masak has noted before how he doesn't like it too much :P)
dha ShimmerFairy - right. I really should have realized that. the C<:to> got in between the q and the / and confused me for a moment. 17:54
17:55 domidumont joined
dha And finally(?), it used to be that if you surrounded your terminator string with single quotes or double quotes it either didn't interpolate or did. Is there a way to make that distinction in Perl 6? For instance, using C<qq> instead of C<q>? 17:55
smls I like square brackets as quote delims personally, as in q:to[END]
dha (That's how I would guess it would work but it's not documented in the quoting documentation.
smls qq:to vs q:to I think 17:56
17:56 espadrine left
dha I guess I'll have to write a test... *sigh* 17:57
:-)
smls synopses confirm it: design.perl6.org/S02#Heredocs
17:58 ShimmerFairy left
dha Well, hopefully it's actually implemented... :-) 17:58
smls :)
18:00 brrt joined
dha Yep. it works. whew. 18:01
dalek c: 39d9449 | moritz++ | lib/Type/IO/Pipe.pod:
Bare-bones documentation for type IO::Pipe
 18:02
ugexe typo says 'method prodc'
moritz ugexe: thanks
dalek c: d42aeab | moritz++ | lib/Type/IO/Pipe.pod:
Two small fixes in IO::Pipe docs

  * IO::Handle is a class, not a role
  * typo in method name, ugexe++		 18:03
c: ee67d9f | moritz++ | type-graph.txt:
Add IO::Pipe to type graph
18:10 ShimmerFairy joined 18:11 smls_ joined, smls left
lucasb If the only thing a .new method does is call nqp::create(self).BUILD(...), then why have an explicit .new method at all, since this is what the inherited .new would do anyway? Yesterday I asked about Capture.new; here are other examples: 18:14
m: class R is Range {}; R.new(1,2)
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«Method 'BUILD' not found for invocant of class 'R'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/7bCxgvL4E9:1␤␤»
lucasb m: class C is Complex {}; C.new(1,2)
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«Method 'BUILD' not found for invocant of class 'C'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/dTymn3Jt__:1␤␤»
18:15 raiph left 18:16 raiph joined
moritz lucasb: it is likely that Range.new is much older than our object construction mechanism 18:16
hoelzro while working on a script, I discovered that LEAVE blocks are scheduled right away, instead of once the line they're found on has been reached (ex. I expected the LEAVE phaser here to never be run: die "uh-oh"; LEAVE say 'hi') 18:18
lucasb For example, if something like Range's nqp::create(self).BUILD(-Inf, Inf, ...) was changed to self.new(-Inf, Inf, ...) it would work all right?
hoelzro if one is doing clean up on an object bound to a variable (ex. $db), is it idiomatic to CYA and do LEAVE $db && $db.close?
18:18 mr-foobar left
dha Hmm... taking longer than I would expect for github changes to propagate... 18:20
[Coke] hoelzro: the timing makes sense, given the compile time phasers. 18:21
moritz hoelzro: yes
hoelzro [Coke]: it makes sense to me now, but surprised me at first
I've also noticed with LEAVE (and POST) phasers that if the phaser throws an exception during an unwind, the original exception is masked unless one uses an explicit CATCH block; would anyone be opposed to improving the top level error handler to print out all exceptions being thrown? 18:22
18:23 [Sno] left
[Coke] I wouldn't expect having multiple exceptions being thrown simultaneously to make sense. 18:23
isn't it always the most recent one that was thrown? 18:24
hoelzro m: die 'uh-oh'; LEAVE die 'leaving'; CATCH { default { .say } }
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«uh-oh␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/YINsD8hy8s:1␤␤leaving␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/YINsD8hy8s:1␤␤»
hoelzro [Coke]: if the exception propagates to whatever handles uncaught exceptions, only the most recent is printed 18:25
my use case is for the Xapian binding I'm working on; if I do this:
my $db = Xapian::WritableDatabase.new('test.db', $mode); LEAVE $db.close 18:26
if opening the database fails, seeing "Any has no method close" doesn't help me
[Coke] I would expect that if close throws an exception, that's what you get.
so you'd have to wrap your leave in a try.
LEAVE try {$db.close}; # ingore any exceptions here, don't care. 18:27
18:27 domidumont left, mr-foobar joined
hoelzro or do the $db && $db.close trick 18:27
that just feels...weird to me 18:28
that the original reason for stack unwinding is hidden
[Coke] hoelzro: you ever program in java?
hoelzro heh, not for a while
but iirc in Java you can link exceptions
for better or for worse
ugexe m: class Foo { method close { say 2; }; }; sub Bar { LEAVE { Foo.new.?close }; }; sub Baz { LEAVE { Foo.new.?blargh }; }; Bar(); Baz() 18:31
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«2␤»
18:37 brrt left 18:39 Sqirrel left 18:41 lucasb left 18:43 raiph left
masak it is correct that I don't like // delimiters too much for heredoc markers. it's a pity they seem to be the default/convention. 18:45
reason I don't like them is exactly that they signal "regex!" without being one.
I think my current favorite is <> as delimiters
dha I can see that, but they're pretty much traditional for the q operators as well. 18:48
But, hey! You can do whatever you want!
masak boggles 18:51
vendethiel waves 18:52
18:53 espadrine joined, domidumont joined
jercos is there an "I really know what I'm doing" flag for typed buffers? 18:54
ugexe m: Buf[uint32].perl.say # ? 18:55
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«Buf[uint32]␤»
jercos say I have a string that was mistakenly decoded as utf-8 and happened to be valid... .encode("utf-8").decode("latin-1") throws a "Can not decode a utf-8 buffer as if it were latin-1"
which is generally correct, but seems counterproductive in the corner-cases where I want that to happen, despite the potential consequences 18:56
masak I'm... a little bit surprised that's not already allowed.
jercos the other way around seems to be
masak I don't think of a buffer as a "utf-8 buffer". I think of it as a sequence of ints.
jercos m: "Hello, world".encode("utf-8").decode("latin-1")
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«Can not decode a utf-8 buffer as if it were latin-1␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/VL3o4vTpEN:1␤␤»
jercos m: "Hello, world".encode("latin-1").decode("utf-8") 18:57
camelia ( no output )
FROGGS m: "Hello, world".encode("utf-8").WHAT
camelia ( no output )
FROGGS m: say "Hello, world".encode("utf-8").WHAT
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«(utf8)␤»
ShimmerFairy masak: surely you don't mean the utf8 type though, right? :)
FROGGS it is not a buf8
masak jercos: anyway. I completely agree with you.
jercos: it should go ahead and try... and *then* fail with a failing position if it's not actually decodable as latin-1. 18:58
masak submits rakudobug
ShimmerFairy: I have no idea. do I?
oh, from what FROGGS++ eval'd it seems I do.
well, I will stop submitting a rakudobug if someone tells me why this is a feature, not an annoyance ;) 18:59
ShimmerFairy m: say buf8.new("Hello, world".encode("utf-8")).decode("latin1")
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«Hello, world␤»
ShimmerFairy ^ Once you don't have a Unicode buffer type, it'll work as expected 19:00
jercos hrm... would that incur the same cost as buf8.new(.list)? 19:01
it definitely seems hackier than I would expect
dha Hm... Am I crazy, or does the latter example at doc.perl6.org/syntax/-%3E seem odd to be in the documentation for C<< -> >>?
FROGGS m: my &d = Blob.^find_method('decode'); say "Hello, world".encode("utf-8").&d('latin-1') # is that error message correct?
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«Invocant requires a 'Blob' instance, but a type object was passed. Did you forget a .new?␤ in any at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:1676␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/c6lQpnpoDa:1␤␤»
FROGGS ohh wait 19:02
m: my &d = Blob[uint8].^find_method('decode'); say "Hello, world".encode("utf-8").&d('latin-1') # is that error message correct?
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«Invocant requires a 'Blob[uint8]' instance, but a type object was passed. Did you forget a .new?␤ in any at src/gen/m-Metamodel.nqp:1676␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/wegl2_fkWe:1␤␤»
FROGGS hmmm
19:02 colomon_ left
ShimmerFairy jercos: I think ideally you'd be able to use a .buf8 method, but for some inexplicable reason there have never been methods for converting to various buffer types. 19:02
19:03 diana_olhovik left
jercos maybe a .genericize for specialized buffer types? 19:03
'twould spit out a buf8 for utf8, buf16 for utf16, so on so forth? :p
19:03 domidumont left, colomon joined
smls_ m: say (-> $a, $b { $a ** 2 + $b ** 2})(3, 4) 19:04
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«25␤»
smls_ dha: Yeah, it's a little odd. This ^^ might be more appropriate.
ugexe m: "Hello World".encode('utf-8').unpack("A*").say
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«Hello World␤»
ShimmerFairy I think it'd be better if we simply had the appropriate type conversion methods :P (also less letters) 19:05
Wait, since when did we have (un)pack implemented?
FROGGS since two years at least
smls_ only partially though I think
dha Yeah, the current example to be a digression from documenting the arrow operator into documenting general block syntax.
FROGGS smls_: aye
dha s/block/Block/;
ShimmerFairy FROGGS: I was under the impression that they weren't there at all, because the spec mentions zip about them. 19:06
19:07 diana_olhovik_ joined
smls_ dha: Ah, it's because that section is automatically extracted from /language/functions where it is actually called "Blocks and Lambdas" 19:07
dha oop. That strikes me as efficient, but wrong. :-) 19:08
smls_ Maybe the way we do that extraction/aggregation needs more thought
dha I vote yes, fwtw.
smls_ Do we even need /syntax/* pages? It's not like they're represented in the menu. 19:09
Maybe we just need to point to /language/syntax.html#some_subsections when you search for syntax tokens 19:10
19:18 smls_ is now known as smls
dha What the.... C<while> isn't documented??? 19:28
masak dha: it's kind of an experimental feature.
:P
[Coke] dha: your sacrifice is appreciated. :)
(it really is, thanks!) 19:29
PerlJam yeah, dha++
masak waitwait, we perform sacrifices to create documentation nowadays?
dha It's my... I don't know, "pleasure" seems a bit much... :-)
masak I must have missed that.
[Coke] :)
smls jnthn: Is the return value of ASSIGN-POS and BIND-POS significant? 19:30
dha So, I'm looking at the bit on No-Ops in perlop. Can I assume that C<1 while foo();> still works? Or has it become horribly complicated? 19:34
19:37 mohij joined
masak dha: :) 19:38
dha: that bit still works
smls m: 1 while $++ < 5;
camelia ( no output )
dha Huh. Seems that C<300 for (1..1000000);'
also works.
masak wonders if `1` is the best thing to put there, in terms of things-that-leak-memory 19:39
smls m: 1
camelia ( no output )
19:39 Peter_R joined
smls ^^ why no "useless use of literal in void context"? 19:39
dha (in perlop, it says that 1 and 0 are special case to not emit warnings in void context)
smls masak: Then what is?
dha (but now, it seems a number in void context is ok even if it's not 1 or 0) 19:40
vendethiel dha: I think that's for perl5 modules :)
(that are, iirc, supposed to return 1 if loaded correctly)
dha vendethiel - could be for that too (and, yes, they are). But it also seems to be special cased for a virtual no-op.
19:40 FROGGS left
dha m: 300 19:41
camelia ( no output )
dha m: "boo!"
camelia ( no output )
vendethiel m: { 300 };
camelia ( no output )
19:41 VinceDee joined
dha Hm... yeah, should those be emitting warnings? 19:41
vendethiel would think so 19:42
smls m: 300; 400
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«WARNINGS:␤Useless use of constant integer 300 in sink context (line 1)␤»
smls ah
just the last one in the file doesn't warn
vendethiel oooh. that doesn't warn because it's "returned", then?
smls yeah
dha Hm. fwiw, perl 5 doesn't warn unless you specifically enable warnings. 19:43
smls use warnings; is on by default in P6
dha (which is, I guess, unsurprising, but p6 should have warnings on by default, no?)
19:44 amurf joined
dha right. 19:44
m: 1, 1
camelia ( no output )
vendethiel that's a list :)
m: SEQ(1; 2)
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«WARNINGS:␤Useless use of constant integer 1 in sink context (line 1)␤»
dha m: 1, 0
camelia ( no output )
dha oh, right.
m: 1; 1;
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«WARNINGS:␤Useless use of constant integer 1 in sink context (line 1)␤»
vendethiel we don't really have perl5's "soft comma" (as I think they call it)
lizmat p6weekly.wordpress.com/2015/07/06/...t-was-hot/ <---- the new Perl 6 Weekly 19:46
vendethiel lizmat++
dha lizmat++
colomon lizmat++ 19:47
dha So... Now I'm confused. Does C<1 while foo();> work or not?
1 does not seem to be special cased as it is in p5.
masak m: sub foo { state $n = 2; return True if $n-- }; say "OH HAI" while foo()
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤OH HAI␤»
masak dha: it works. 19:48
vendethiel > vendethiel mentioned an an interesting paper on recursion vs corecursion. For the aficionado, I think.
yes, indeed... uses some jargon as well
masak m: sub foo { state $n = 2; say "OH HAI"; return True if $n-- }; 1 while foo()
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤OH HAI␤OH HAI␤»
lizmat dha: maybe "loop { foo() }" is more idiomatic Perl 6
masak dha: I'm not aware that `1 while foo();` is special-cased in Perl 5.
19:48 amurf left
dha masak - perlop says yes. 19:48
masak lizmat: that doesn't do the same! o.O
smls masak: Well, it "works" in that it produces not side-effects.
But does it guarantee not to run out of memory? 19:49
19:49 ggoebel joined
masak lizmat: `loop` loops forever. `while foo()` stops if foo() returns something falsy. 19:49
lizmat duh
dha I'm currently dealing with perldoc.perl.org/perlop.html#No-ops
masak smls: does `1 while foo();` *guarantee not to run out of memory* in Perl 5!? 19:50
smls: what if foo() allocates lots of stuff?
smls dha's link seems to suggest it does
well, that's different :)
skids (backlogging) IIRC the use case for Int.new was something to do with subclassing/$?CLASS.new/etc and was asked after by -- ergh I forget who -- doing TZ support. 19:51
lizmat std: while say "foo"
camelia std 28329a7: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Missing block at /tmp/3AcclRos5F line 1 (EOF):␤------> 3while say "foo"7⏏5<EOL>␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 135m␤»
smls maybe Empty while foo() ?
lizmat why not just "while foo();" ???
dha m: while say "foo" 19:52
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/1A99J_tyCE␤Missing block␤at /tmp/1A99J_tyCE:1␤------> 3while say "foo"7⏏5<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ block or pointy block␤ postfix␤»
smls For the same reasons we're not allowed to write "sub foo;" instaed of "sub foo {*}" I guess 19:53
lizmat well, fwiw, I don't see why "while", "until" and "loop" couldn't take a blorst 19:54
moritz because TTIAR 19:55
mst www.flickr.com/photos/vmbrasseur/s...5127918530
bah
19:55 atroxaper joined
mst wrong bloody paste buffer 19:55
blog.hackerrank.com/the-inevitable-...-of-cobol/
there.
19:56 brrt joined
mst thought the fact that decimal arithmetic got a specific mention was interesting 19:56
ugexe m: ".".IO.chdir("lib").say # this should actually try to chdir into $*SPEC.rel2abs("lib", '.') instead of "/lib" correct?
camelia rakudo-moar d2faa1: OUTPUT«"/lib".IO␤»
vendethiel
.oO( good thing I learned cobol then )
fun fact: cobol has two constructs named "classes"
19:58 espadrine left
moritz mst: fwiw I've been reading such articles for the last ten years 19:58
vendethiel
.oO( I swear, won't these cobol guys die already?! )
(sorry)
moritz mst: and these days I tend to shrug it off as Y2K-like hype
timotimo ugexe: oh damn, thank you for noticing, i'll revert it
PerlJam There's still a cobol course at the University where I work. 19:59
mst moritz: more that "there's nothing that the logic can easily be directly ported to"
seemed interesting
I didn't see it as hype, just a note about language features
moritz mst: *nod*
19:59 atroxaper left 20:00 nowan left
moritz fwiw my stance is that if there's a lot of money to be made with COBOL stuff, I still wouldn't like to program in it, but maybe write cross-compilers that do the work for me :-) 20:00
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masak that actually sounds like fun. no clue if it's viable, though. 20:01
dalek kudo/nom: 2823563 | timotimo++ | src/core/Failure.pm:
Revert "make Failure objects a tiny bit smaller"

It makes the JVM build break, sadly
This reverts commit d9c1e267f50513eaeb9717be01fea97585e4ca85.		 20:02
moritz masak: last I had that thought, I googled around a bit, and found Java <-> COBOL interop business products
lizmat timotimo: why not make it conditional for the JVM ?
20:03 nowan joined
brrt masak: ehm, since you've studied macro's quite a bit 20:04
yoleaux 06:37Z <FROGGS> brrt: Ummm, what?
timotimo hmm
masak brrt: yeees?
brrt can you advice me to pick a sigil for my macro's in my little tree template language
masak how about &, like subs?
brrt i'm thinking ^ for declaring (in the name) and ` for quoting
masak honestly, I can't advise on such a thing without more context. 20:05
brrt i've already used & for c-level macro's (like offsetof/alignof/sizeof
github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/blob/even...t/exprlist is context :-)
masak but "tree template language" sounds different enough that much of what I've learned about Perl 6 macros doesn't apply :) 20:06
masak clicks, looks
brrt the s-exps represent tree templates
masak oh, cute.
brrt $1, $2 etc represent operand param 1 and 2, respectively
(&offsetof MVMObject st) becomes offsetof(MVMObject, st)
masak ah. 20:07
could you also name a situation where you'd need those (non-c-level) macros?
brrt yes, can you see the getlex_no thingy? 20:08
masak yes, last in the file.
brrt the let expression containing $str is actually a quite common pattern in the dynasm code; it acquires a string from the compunit string array] 20:09
it's.. unwieldy, and i've gotten it wrong several times
if you do get it wrong, tree traversal will die in interesting ways
20:09 darutoko left
masak but it's a fixed template, right? no unquotes? 20:09
brrt whereby interesting means 'rather nonobviously wrong'
masak or is there something in there that you feel should be parameterized? 20:10
brrt hmm... it should probably contain fill-ins for parameters (e.g. $1)
yes, i'll need parameters
vendethiel looks as well, as he enjoys macros himself
masak hmmmmm
dha PERLOP DONE.
timotimo oh yeah!
masak dha++
dha woo. 20:11
PerlJam brrt: Can you show that same example again, but with your hypothetical macro syntax?
brrt will do
masak brrt: how about something like `let (($str MACRO_load_str($1) ...` ?
brrt hmmm 20:12
masak brrt: (that is, a macro is used (and defined) by it having a MACRO_ prefix)
brrt that's.. not necessarily a bad idea
masak could work.
dha ok, this is ridiculous. I'm trying to pull updates for perl6/doc, but it's telling me it's "Already up-to-date." despite changes from a couple of hours ago not being there.
brrt the only objection i have is that it breaks sexp syntax (i.e. requires another parser)
but it's nice and obvious 20:13
dha smacks github with a hammer
tony-o dha: correct branch?
dha should be.
masak brrt: it only requires a hook in the sexp parser that splices in the tree returned from the macro.
dha checks to make sure
masak brrt: you have an easier task than I do in Perl 6, because your trees don't have an environment :)
PerlJam I was having a feeling about ^ not being "big enough" for a macro sigil, but MACRO_ wouldn't have that (possibly imagined) problem.
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smls dha: Works for me. Do you have the correct `git remote -v` ? 20:14
masak I think what I like most about the MACRO_ idea is that the definition of macros basically falls out of what's already there.
because otherwise the question becomes "how does the macro specify its parameters? some (...) syntax?" 20:15
but here it's just $1, $2... like with the function definitions that are already there.
dha oh. the git remote -v is, in fact, wrong. Grr. It *wasn't* at some point...
timotimo brrt: but wouldn't it work just as well with (MACRO_load_str $1) instead of MACRO_load_str($1)?
brrt hmm yes, it would 20:16
masak right. that was my next point.
timotimo :)
masak maybe for consistency you should write it as `(&MACRO_load_str $1)`...
up to you whether you want that & up front
another idea I had was `(&&load_str $1)`
but that might be too confusable with &load_str 20:17
PerlJam maybe `(%load_str $1)` :) 20:18
brrt gist.github.com/bdw/736b57fe772fc0269dbe 20:19
is what it'd be under my suggeted syntax
so many sigils to choose from 20:20
masak the sigils are not the important choice :)
finding some nice consistency is what matters
brrt hmm
PerlJam as long as it's not foolish consistency 20:21
20:21 dha left
masak right. I'm considering whether re-using $1 et al. for macros is foolish consistency. 20:21
brrt i.. think it is
hmm
although 20:22
masak brrt: you should probably do ,a instead of `a for unquotes
brrt macro's probably shouldn't have $1 parameters in the first place
masak brrt: because ,a is unquote in Lisp, whereas `a means quasiquote
20:22 dha joined
brrt fair enough 20:22
masak swapping their meaning is too confuzzling 20:23
PerlJam brrt: you mean, macros should have parameters, just not the same a $1, $2, etc ?
RabidGravy do you know what the most important thing
PerlJam RabidGravy: happiness.
masak and I don't think the ` is necessary in the parameter list
RabidGravy: friends
brrt right. $1 and $2 should refer - i think - to parameters of the operand to which it applies
PerlJam brrt: right.
masak brrt: yeah, that makes sense 20:24
RabidGravy changing '.' to '~' for string concatenation
masak RabidGravy: \o/
brrt i think friendship can reasonably compete with that :-P
masak brrt: and you don't need the ^ before 'get_string' either, AFAIU
brrt no, you're right
RabidGravy how many times I mistype . instead of , and it wouldn't get caught until something breaks at runtime 20:25
PerlJam unless you want macros to stand out all the time.
masak oh, now I see. you're being consistent between definition and use.
hm.
yeah, it works. keep it if you want.
brrt i'd add that i want the args to the macro spliced in directly
as in, able to take a list rather than $1
PerlJam would still use a "fatter" character than ^ to signify macros 20:26
masak brrt: now for some tough questions.
brrt such as? the ^ signifies a 'higher level' for me
ok, bring'm on :-)
masak brrt: can a parameter such as `a be used many times in the macro body?
PerlJam looks up and sees no macros
brrt yes
masak brrt: what if it's something with a side effect? does it run several times? 20:27
brrt ...yes, and if you want something else you use (let) 20:28
masak good.
brrt no obvious way to prevent that, anyhow :-)
masak right.
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PerlJam brrt: I would use @ or % or ** or something. But only because I'd like to know at a glance where the macros are and for me, ^ kind of disappears in the mix 20:29
brrt macro's are fun. i use 'm in C a lot now too
masak brrt: do you predict that you'll ever invoke a macro inside a macro body?
brrt could be, yes; i intend to use parser-level splicing
masak right.
brrt hmm
maybe that is not a good idea
PerlJam brrt: the same macro? (i.e. "recursion")
masak seems to be so far. 20:30
just that recursion and mutual recursion are out.
brrt not the same same macro, no
masak heh, PerlJam++ beat me to it :)
brrt macro needs to be declared before it can be used
masak right.
glad we agree.
brrt :-)
masak then I really like ^ as a character choice, I think :)
the mnemonic is "look above for the thing to put here" :D 20:31
which is a (weak) reason not to include it in the definition...
brrt: do you ever envision passing a function (reference) to a macro? what about passing a macro to a macro? 20:32
brrt hmmm... i did include the $ for the name definitions in the let declaration
masak brrt: what about returning a macro (reference) from a macro?
brrt wait, let me think about that 20:33
masak thinks, too
brrt the last, no, i don't need that kind of power
the first, to be clear there's not really such a thing as a function at this level
just trees
PerlJam seems to me like there's a lot of power in being about to pass a macro to another macro. 20:34
brrt they look like code, they represent code, but they're trees, and they're never evelauted
masak PerlJam: yes, I think so too.
PerlJam: the use case I'm envisioning is something like sort-using-callback.
brrt: right, understood. 20:35
brrt as in: (^foo ,a) (,a b) and you'd pass (^foo ^bar) which would result to (^bar b) which would evaluate to whatever (^bar b) would evaluate
that is very powerful, i use it in C
but the macro-evaluation semantics are more complex; you'd have to do a tree-walk after constructing the macro to fill it in 20:36
masak aye.
brrt not-sure-if-worth-it
masak maybe forbid it until you see that it would be worth it?
brrt yes, seems reasonable 20:38
masak ok, I like where we ended up. good luck. :>
PerlJam brrt: are you going to use this for the jit? 20:39
brrt :-) thanks
yes
this generates tree templates, which are then stitched together to form an expression tree 20:40
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brrt 'tree' is a huge misnomer at this point, but so what 20:41
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brrt the expression tree is then input to the (hypothetical so far) code generator 20:41
masak one final thought: as you start using this... pay close attention to how it shapes your thoughts. after not-too-long you will get so used to thinking in terms of this model that it will be hard-ish to think outside of it.
so take the chance while you're still not so used to it ;) 20:42
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PerlJam masak++ I'd say those are some words of wisdom 20:43
masak "the map is not the territory" -- EY 20:44
dha Oof. Out of curiosity, is it a known thing that the search field in docs.perl6.org pages is kinda.... awful?
brrt yes, i'll do that :-)
thanks
masak dha: I was thinking the same the other day. 20:45
dha: I don't think it's hopeless, it's just... been through fewer iterations than the rest of that page.
dha So, C<while> isn't actually documented in those documents, so, I'm not wholly surprised it can't be searched for (although I am wholly surprised that it's not documented...) 20:46
But C<given> *is* documented, but can't be searched for.
masak that's an outright bug. please submit.
dha ok. Submit an issue at github.com/perl6/doc ? 20:47
brrt that cobol article makes some ... strange points 20:48
RabidGravy cobol is strange 20:49
masak dha: yes, please.
dha *nod*
brrt anyway, off for tonight :-) 20:50
20:51 brrt left
skids dha: Someone else started the control flow, and I added a lot of what's there, but I stopped short of doccing some loops because GLR will change their return value, so examples would have been premature. 20:51
RabidGravy (and I'm saying that having not done any cobol since perhaps 1997)
dha GLR?
skids Great List Refactor.
(That IS documented :-)
dha Ah.
PerlJam S99:GLR 20:52
dalek kudo/nom: 6e425fd | lizmat++ | src/Perl6/World.nqp:
Be more strict in accepting no args pragma's
dha Ah.
20:52 synbot6 joined, davido__ left
PerlJam S99:GLR 20:52
synbot6 Link: design.perl6.org/S99.html#GLR
PerlJam much better 20:53
dha Still, while and for loops can be *bascially* documented, surely?
lizmat while / until I see no problem with
for... not so sure what would be the best at this stage of the game 20:54
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skids They can be docced to some extent, but the return values are a big part of it. 20:54
dha If you say so. But, for people coming from p5 at least, something about how C<< -> >> is used in such statements would probably be really helpful. 20:56
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dalek ast: b07221d | lizmat++ | S02-types/WHICH.t:
Add X::Adverb::Slice
 21:02
skids I certainly don't mean to discourage you :-). I'd just keep it to a couple short quick examples knowing the section will be reworked later. 21:03
Also, BTW, this is one area where the synopsis reads very smoothly.
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dha ok. 21:07
21:09 skids left 21:12 Possum left
RabidGravy dha, the "pointy block" is the same whether it's used in a for, an if, or an "anonymous sub" so yeah that's fair 21:12
dha right, but as a perl 5 programmer wouldn't even know to look for it... 21:13
Or *when* to look for it, for that matter.
21:16 larion left
RabidGravy Almost all "control structures" it's a pointy block 21:16
or a block which can be pointy if it makes sense
dha Well, but you actually *know* that.
masak maybe it should be mentioned under "control flow"? 21:17
dha Not a bad idea.
lizmat goes to catch some sleep (again) 21:18
dha I mean, C<< -> >> is actually documented (and searchable!), but... that's sort of backwards from the perspective I'm coming from. It says "Whenever you see something like { $_ + 42 }, -> $a, $b { $a ** $b }..."
masak lizmat: 'night
hoelzro can you return a Str via a char ** in NativeCall? ex. void my_routine(char **return_pointer) { *return_pointer = "foobar" }; my sub my_routine(Str $return-str is rw) is native(...) { * } 21:19
dha Whereas, from my perspective I'm thinking "but if I'm actually trying to write code, what am I supposed to do?" for which, looking for C<< -> >> isn't obvious.
masak also might be good to mention cases where this is actually useful. 21:20
I've always been fond of `if condition() -> $interesting-truthy-value { ... }`
RabidGravy yeah
masak as well as `given computation() -> $bound-result { ... }`
I sometimes do `given open($path) -> $fh { ... }` 21:21
dha This seems, to me, a pretty important aspect of the language, and that it's not easy to find appears a bit problematic.
(not easy to find for a beginner, anyway) 21:22
RabidGravy the for case is the clearest for someone coming to it from p5 though IMO
masak I don't know about "very important". it's just nicely consistent, and easy to learn to like :>
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masak in that vein -- but a different construct -- I hope the documentation will speak warmly of the `repeat while my $keep-going { ... }` pattern, which declares a variable before the loop, but evaluates it afterwards. 21:24
(we discussed it the other day)
21:25 rurban left
dha Well, does C<for my $x qw[1 2 3 4]> still work? If not, and you need to do C<< for 1, 2, 3, 4 -> $x >>, C<< -> >> seems important. 21:26
dha would check, but is currently rebuilding p6 21:27
RabidGravy yes the latter
masak m: for my $x <1 2 3 4> { } 21:28
camelia rakudo-moar 6e425f: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/C5bGTuW3L3␤Missing block␤at /tmp/C5bGTuW3L3:1␤------> 3for my $x <17⏏5 2 3 4> { }␤ expecting any of:␤ block or pointy block␤ infix␤ infix stopper␤»
RabidGravy always "for @listy-thing -> $v { }"
dha Right, so IMO, that makes the pointy block pretty darned important...
masak m: my @list; for my $x (@list) { }
camelia rakudo-moar 6e425f: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/ti2hjcdH4O␤This appears to be Perl 5 code␤at /tmp/ti2hjcdH4O:1␤------> 3my @list; for 7⏏5my $x (@list) { }␤»
masak 'night, #perl6 21:29
RabidGravy but it's cooler because it will take multiple args to the block
so you can e.g. for %h.kv -> $key, $value { }
21:29 kaare_ left
RabidGravy and so on and so forth 21:30
dha Oh, I'm sure it's WAY handy, but that means it would be a lot more useful to have it documented. 21:31
[Coke] I am sure everyone is on the same page there. 21:32
dha Ok. :-) 21:34
But is anyone going to do anything about it? ;-)
RabidGravy yes you are ;-)
dha Nah, not me. I may wind up explaining it to p5 people, but I'm not taking responsibility for the official explanation. :-) 21:35
RabidGravy It's probably only a little tweaking in the docs.perl6.org/language/5to6 21:36
in the first instance
dha Hm. Good point.
My problem with doing that, however, is that, without actual documentation, I'm not sure that I actually understand how it works. 21:37
For instance, what happens with C<< for %h.kv -> $a, $b, $c>? 21:38
ok, I didn't do the angle brackets right there, but you can see what I'm saying.
RabidGravy my dumb view of it is that nearly all the blocks of control structures are "anonymous subs" and that the -> introduces the arguments 21:39
El_Che pretty much like || in ruby 21:40
RabidGravy some of those control structures (such as 'for') may call that "anonymous sub" multiple times with different argumentas
21:40 pullphinger left, rindolf left
dha Also, it looks like C<< -> >> localizes the, in these examples, C<$a>, C<$b>, etc. variables. Is that actually the case? 21:43
(I'm not necessarily asking that, but it's an example of the things I don't know well enough to document)
RabidGravy yes, in the same way as " sub ($a, $b) { } " does 21:44
which is why, e.g., no "my"
dha I assume that should be "sub foo ($a, $b)..." ?
21:45 rindolf joined, kurahaupo left
RabidGravy no, no literally: 21:46
m: my $f = sub ($c) { say $c }; $f("gg")
camelia rakudo-moar 6e425f: OUTPUT«gg␤»
dha ah. so, essentially, an anonymous sub.
RabidGravy (you can declare a signature for an anonymous sub) 21:47
dha *nod*
RabidGravy which is (almost) exactly the same as:
m: my $f = -> $c { say $c }; $f("gg") 21:48
camelia rakudo-moar 6e425f: OUTPUT«gg␤»
RabidGravy which is a nice one for the obfu fans
dha huh. ok, see, I can see how that would work, but I wouldn't have thought of it, EVER, and have no idea how I would explain it. 21:49
This is why I would not feel comfortable writing the documentation for pointy blocks.
RabidGravy to be honest the docs.perl6.org/language/control#blocks could explain this a bit more clearly 21:51
dha That looks like it has the backwards problem from the C<< -> >> documentation. 21:52
C<< -> >> starts talking about Blocks without pointiness, and this talks about Blocks, but leaves out pointiness entirely. 21:53
RabidGravy yep
21:53 nys left
RabidGravy need more stupid people who have to explain things to normal people sometimes to work on the documentation ;-) 21:54
dha Like me? :-) 21:55
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RabidGravy dha, you worry too much so you can't be stupid enough ;-) 22:06
dha Clearly. 22:07
virtualsue o/ dha 22:09
dha waves
virtualsue and \o RabidGravy
RabidGravy :-*
22:10 zoosha left
RabidGravy I may take a poke at that control document in the morning as some light relief from these modules I'm doing 22:11
22:11 zoosha joined
RabidGravy anyway I'm *not* going to watch Jaws 2 for the umpteenth time so I think I'll crash 22:13
toodlepip #perl6
22:19 RabidGravy left 22:21 dha left 22:22 dha joined, bin_005 left 22:33 davido__ left 22:34 davido__ joined, bjz left 22:35 spider-mario left
labster m: DateTime.new(year=> 2015, seconds => -86500).say 22:36
camelia rakudo-moar 6e425f: OUTPUT«2015-01-01T00:00:00Z␤»
TimToady I used to write '0 while stuff()', but that bothered people somehow more than '1 while stuff()' 22:37
labster m: DateTime.new(year=> 2015, seconds => 86500).say
camelia rakudo-moar 6e425f: OUTPUT«2015-01-01T00:00:00Z␤»
TimToady these days, I'd probably write 'Nil while stuff()'
labster m: DateTime.new(year=> 2015, second => -86500).say
camelia rakudo-moar 6e425f: OUTPUT«second out of range. Is: -86500, should be in 0..^62␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/CvFHToW68F:1␤␤»
labster 62 is kinda LTA there, but otherwise good. 22:38
TimToady yeah, should really say 0..61 I suspect 22:40
labster yeah, it looks good in the source code, with 0..^24 and 0..^60 above it... but 62 looks magical here.
TimToady arguably it's 0..^61 because of leap seconds, but maybe the idea is that the earth could take a major wobble at some point and need 2 leap seconds at once 22:41
geekosaur yes
2 leap seconds are allowed for in the spec 22:42
TimToady I'd rather see them abolish leap soconds and do a major correction every century or so
labster And never do them at all in UTC.
TimToady well, you need them eventually, but only when the delay gets up around half a timezone 22:43
so they should probably solve it with leap hours someday
scheduled well in advance
labster i.e. some future programmer's problem. 22:45
TimToady ayup
vendethiel *g*
.oO( but perl6 is supposed to still be around then! )
dha Never do today what you can put off until the next century.
TimToady when timezones have a slop of 15°, there's no reason to keep civil time so close to astronomical
labster Perl 6 will build up temporal debt
[Coke] by that point, we'll all be going off earth central time and won't care about matching midnight to a longitude.
labster I think they already have that in the central kingdom^W^W PRC. 22:47
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dalek kudo-star-daily: 7610cde | coke++ | log/ (9 files):
today (automated commit)
 23:09
rl6-roast-data: 7142afa | coke++ | / (9 files):
today (automated commit)
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dalek c: c33d70b | (David H. Adler)++ | WANTED:
Added C<srand> and C<state> to WANTED
 23:22
c: eef0e62 | (David H. Adler)++ | lib/Language/regexes.pod:
Added language to specify the default values for C<:c>
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