»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz on 22 December 2015.
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cfedde does perl6 have an idiom for line oriented file reading? kinda like while(<>){...} ? 00:07
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RabidGravy .lines 00:07
m: for $*IN.lines -> $line { say ">>>", $line } 00:08
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«>>>Céad slán ag sléibhte maorga Chontae Dhún na nGall␤>>>Agus dhá chéad slán ag an Eireagal ard ina stua os cionn caor is coll;␤>>>Nuair a ghluais mise thart le Loch Dhún Lúich’ go ciúin sa ghleann ina luí␤>>>I mo dhiaidh bhí gleanntái…»
TimToady m: for lines() { .say } 00:10
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«Céad slán ag sléibhte maorga Chontae Dhún na nGall␤Agus dhá chéad slán ag an Eireagal ard ina stua os cionn caor is coll;␤Nuair a ghluais mise thart le Loch Dhún Lúich’ go ciúin sa ghleann ina luí␤I mo dhiaidh bhí gleanntáin ghlas’ G…»
Juerd m: say lines 00:11
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«(Céad slán ag sléibhte maorga Chontae Dhún na nGall Agus dhá chéad slán ag an Eireagal ard ina stua os cionn caor is coll; Nuair a ghluais mise thart le Loch Dhún Lúich’ go ciúin sa ghleann ina luí I mo dhiaidh bhí gleanntáin ghlas’ Ghaoth…»
RabidGravy m: lines>>.say 00:12
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«Céad slán ag sléibhte maorga Chontae Dhún na nGall␤Agus dhá chéad slán ag an Eireagal ard ina stua os cionn caor is coll;␤Nuair a ghluais mise thart le Loch Dhún Lúich’ go ciúin sa ghleann ina luí␤I mo dhiaidh bhí gleanntáin ghlas’ G…»
RabidGravy anymore?
00:12 _Vi left
Juerd If you don't mind parens: 00:12
m: lines.say
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«(Céad slán ag sléibhte maorga Chontae Dhún na nGall Agus dhá chéad slán ag an Eireagal ard ina stua os cionn caor is coll; Nuair a ghluais mise thart le Loch Dhún Lúich’ go ciúin sa ghleann ina luí I mo dhiaidh bhí gleanntáin ghlas’ Ghaoth…»
cfedde TIE5WTDI 00:13
00:13 pmurias_ left
Juerd s/I/A/? 00:13
cfedde s/I/A/
Juerd TAPMT5WTDI
RabidGravy :)
cfedde s/M/MM/ 00:14
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cfedde are there idioms I should be reading about to use perl6 as a cli tool? ansible blablabla | perl6 -e 'summarize the good bits' 00:20
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timotimo state variables and END phaser come to mind, particularly when you use -ne 00:33
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orbus perl6: it's like perl5, only moreso 00:35
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile␤Missing block (taken by some undeclared routine?)␤at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤------> 3it's like perl5, only moreso7⏏5<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ new name to be defined␤»
..rakudo-jvm 6c0f93: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile␤Missing block␤at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤------> 3it's like perl5, only moreso7⏏5<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ new name to be defined␤»
orbus haha
oops
was afraid it might do that
timotimo m: Perl, Cool with any Version 00:36
camelia ( no output )
timotimo ^- i loved this one
orbus haha
so, when does work start on perl7? 00:38
moving ever closer to the platonic ideal of perl 00:39
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timotimo the thing is, perl6 already allows a very big amount of making the language evolve without doing another break 00:40
orbus I am mostly joking 00:41
although
Juerd orbus: 13 years from now
orbus there is a certain tendency in the technology world to view something as stagnant if numbers aren't going up
Juerd orbus: And then it'll take another 15 to complete, so expect Perl 7 in 2043. 00:42
orbus haha
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Juerd Perl 6 stuff started around 2000, when Perl 1..5 was already 13 years old. Etc. :) 00:42
orbus right right
1 2 3 4 5 6 .. Inf 00:44
Juerd m: my @p = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... Inf; say @p[42]; 00:45
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«43␤»
cfedde do we mark the beginning at the cup flinging event?
Juerd This sequence is kind of boring
timotimo i suppose so?
orbus so here's a question for the people familiar with perl6 guts 00:46
I wrote a (really horrible) program yesterday 00:47
timotimo uh-oh
orbus well, I've been toying off and on with implementing atomic compare and swap with high level structures
just as a learning exercise mostly
RabidGravy right, toodles people
orbus anyway, I have a hash right? 00:48
that I need to share between threads
timotimo mhm
orbus so to control access to it
I put it in a channel
some worker grabs it
operates on it
then sticks it back in the channel for someone else to grab
timotimo mhm
orbus and I basically got that working
but the program got slower and slower the longer it ran 00:49
timotimo i don't see why you don't just have a monitor from IO::Monitors control it
oh?
orbus mostly because if this ever pans out it would potentially go in core
(although a vm level implementation is probably more correct)
but yeah
it was getting slower and slower and slower - I started doing deletes from the hash 00:50
timotimo i'm not sure why that'd be something to go into core. i don't see what the benefit is over using a simple Lock
orbus atomic compare and swap is in the spec
and there's a function for it
it's just not actually implemented
there's a stub implementation now
that doesn't actually do anything
timotimo ah
orbus I wanted to make it do something
I had a working implementation with a lock 00:51
but it was kind of a global lock
and nine suggested I try to make it more granular
which I agree with, but I've been wrestling with it off and on ever since
I think I've maybe hit some concurrency bugs too
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orbus some of the things I tried look like they should work but randomly fail 00:52
timotimo hmm
orbus so it's either my poor programming or there's unfound bugs
maybe both
anyway
I'm just trying to figure out why it's getting slower
when you delete from a hash, does it free any memory?
or does the has reserve memory for more stuff to be put in? 00:53
hash*
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orbus oh 00:54
also
I'm populating the hash with promises
:D
potentially thousands of them
that could also be the culprit I guess
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timotimo i don't very good at concurrency internals 00:54
orbus yeah, no worries 00:55
I'm just curious mostly
timotimo like, do we create a mutex when we build a promise?
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orbus don't know how it's implemented 00:55
timotimo why not look at it? :)
orbus I may
timotimo yeah, every Promise has a Lock in it 00:56
orbus most of my C knowledge flew out of my head years ago
I could probably figure it out eventually
a Promise basically feels like a one-time use lock
so that's not terribly surprising
timotimo oh, i didn't mean to look into the moarvm C code
just into Promise.pm 00:57
really all it has is create a lock and lock and unlock it with nqp::lock and nqp::unlock
orbus yeah
I think I did look in there
most of the concurrency stuff ultimately falls back to the vm level
from what I saw
timotimo of course
orbus anyway, I'm just messing around with it mostly 00:59
and learning more about the concurrency features
I was working on Supplies yesterday
and learned quite a bit
timotimo supplies are cool, definitely 01:00
orbus probably need to talk to jnthn whenever he comes back - there's a couple questions I want to ask that he might be the best person to answer
timotimo interestingly, supplies are less about introducing concurrency, but about limiting concurrency
orbus well sure 01:01
in a way that goes for all the concurrency primitives
it's easy to do a bunch of stuff at the same time
it's hard to make it work together and not stomp all over each other
timotimo :)
that's right
it's especially important with regards to our simple data structures, like arrays 01:02
resizing arrays concurrently makes things explode
i think the only thing that has a lock "in it" is IO stuff like file handles
orbus yeah, see that's what I kind of wanted to ask jnthn about - what operations are actually guaranteed to be atomic 01:03
I *think* scalar assignment is, but maybe not if you're doing object creation in the assignment
nobody seems to have done a real writeup on the topic that I can find 01:04
just bits and pieces a few places
I do know about the array growth thing
timotimo right, that could be very interesting
but i also don't know what our future plans are
like, i seem to recall that jnthn wanted to make some things more threadsafe
orbus would be nice to know
timotimo the thing about scalar assignment is that it depends on how the bytecode itself gets generated 01:05
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orbus it gets very tricky to do some kinds of work if you don't have any guarantees on what's safe 01:05
coordinator / worker type stuff should work well with what there is now 01:06
but some other things get tricky
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orbus like the compare and swap thing turned out to be a lot harder than I thought it would be - especially if I didn't want to just throw a big lock around it 01:07
but even with the big lock I was hitting mysterious race conditions I didn't really understand
and still don't
it would *usually* work
timotimo huh. 01:08
orbus I thought it had to do with state variable initialization not being threadsafe
timotimo obviously, if things are locked, things shouldn't b0rk
orbus but now I think it's something more subtle
because I've seen some other weird stuff
timotimo ah, could be, actually
orbus well
I got rid of the state variable
timotimo i could very well imagine state variables could be race-y
orbus but it was still doing bad things 01:09
like what was actually happening is
I made the lock a global variable
initialize it right at the top of the script
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orbus before any concurrent stuff starts 01:09
but then when all the threads were running
every once in a while
it would crash and say I was trying to call protect on an uninitialized variable 01:10
the Lock was originally a state varialbe
but even when I made it global, it did the same thing
usually worked, but occasionally blew up
so I suspect there's some subtle internal race in there someplace 01:11
timotimo huh!
it'd be great if you could golf that
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orbus like make it a one liner? 01:12
it's not a lot of code to begin with
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timotimo not a single line necessarily; just reduce the amount of different concepts involved 01:12
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orbus I have some examples - my hands are kind of tired now 01:13
typing all day
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timotimo sure, don't overstress your hands, they are a vital part of your body :S 01:13
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orbus especially for us computer guys 01:13
timotimo i'm quite glad i haven't had wrist pain in a few months, i think
orbus lucky - mine's been acting up
timotimo though my "mouse hand" is not quite happy for some reason; not in a way that "acts up", just not so cool in general 01:14
orbus messing with perl6 in the evening after typing all day at work is partly to blame
:p
I started alternating mouse hands between home and work years ago
because of wrist pain
helps some
timotimo ah 01:15
i have a stretching exercise i can do to make it better
it hurts like crazy while doing it, but the pain subsides extremely quickly
orbus I probably need one
muraiki I was having some bad hand pain. I ended up going to physical therapy and it turned out the problem actually was rooted in my neck and shoulders. strengthening those areas with light weight training made a huge difference 01:16
timotimo the one i do is i stand up in front of my desk, put the hand down flat on the table with the fingers pointing towards my belly and the thumb to the "outside" (as in: right hand's thumb points to the right, left hand's thumb would point to the left)
then i go through each finger and lift it up a bit 01:17
it works pretty much completely painless on my left hand, but it's hard to do on my right hand
orbus huh
I'll have to give that a try
muraiki but whatever happens if you are having pain in your hands, address it sooner rather than later
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timotimo interesting 01:17
orbus muraiki: I really need to go see a chiropractor or something - back's not so hot either
timotimo i need to see someone about my feet, too :\ 01:18
muraiki I found that a standing desk also helped, but it wasn't enough. for me, at least, I needed to actually strengthen the muscles that were the root cause, not just stretch or stand
orbus there's a guy at work who has a standing desk
timotimo fair enough
orbus I don't think I could stand all day 01:19
muraiki well, standing all day is also bad for your body
the intent is to alternate between sitting and standing, and to move around a bit
timotimo standing gives me knee pain very quickly :(
orbus oh weird - monoprice put snacks in with my cable order
muraiki ultimately my point is that if you are having pain, you need to find someone who help you treat it properly as it's very much an individual case
timotimo potentially related to the foot thing 01:20
orbus yeah, I agree
just... lazy
muraiki I already have one friend who basically cannot type or even play video games outside of work, if he wants to continue being a programmer
timotimo ;(
muraiki and he's only in his early 30s :(
timotimo that realyl sucks
orbus well, I'm going to go see if I can get this hdmi switch to play nice with ubuntu 01:22
later all
timotimo i want a hdmi switch, too ... 01:23
good luck!
orbus first one I got was no good
but this one is powered
so I"m hoping for better results
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orbus problem I'm having now is the linux desktop won't come back after switching - just found and xfce setting that may help 01:23
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timotimo i mostly use the xrandr CLI tool, tbh 01:25
it has a few really cool switches. like when you're giving a talk somewhere and the projector has an aspect ratio that differs from your laptop and due to the built-in display not supporting the given resolution of the projector, you can't just "mirror displays", so i just use --scale-from and be happy 01:27
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orbus I used xrandr to get it back last time 01:27
but I want the desktop to come back when I switch between inputs on the switch
for whatever reason on this system
if you unplug hdmi
the desktop doesn't come back
unless you ssh in and fiddle with xrandr
timotimo hum. it doesn't notice, eh?
orbus think so 01:28
timotimo oh, it won't even give you a virtual terminal on ctrl-alt-f*?
orbus I just found something where it may be an xfce problem
nope
display gets messed up somehow
timotimo that seems more like a video driver problem :(
orbus not sure
found an article that's worth a try
I have a tv with three unputs and I want to put the computer, playstation and maybe some other stuff on the switch 01:29
but if I can't get the computer to play nice, I'll just have to reorganize
Juerd *** Error in `/home/juerd/.rakudobrew/moar-nom/install/bin/moar': free(): invalid size: 0x00007efde41d3bb0 *** 01:33
Is that cause for concern?
And what could I do to gather more information about the problem if I wanted to report the bug?
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timotimo Juerd: you can compile your moarv mwith --asan 01:38
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Juerd rakudobrew build moar --asan? 01:39
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timotimo nah 01:41
no clue how to make rakudobrew set that flag
i'd just cd into that folder and configure & compile it yourself
Juerd Where does the --asan go? 01:42
configure? make?
timotimo configure
Juerd Configure.pl doesn't like --asan 01:43
timotimo only moarvm's configure.pl 01:44
perhaps it has --moar-option=
Juerd How can I tell if it worked or was ignored?
timotimo things will become a lot slower
Juerd Should this be noticeable in 'Stage parse'? 01:45
timotimo yeah
asan isn't nearly as slow as valgrind, but it has an impact
like 3x perhaps?
Juerd I'm now using tools that I don't really understand, with an option that I've never before heard of. 01:46
Guessing the syntax...
Nope, didn't work.
timotimo you can lld the moar executable i expect
Juerd Sorry, I'm going to need more hand-holding I'm afraid 01:47
geekosaur ldd? (lld might produce surprises...)
timotimo er
Juerd I think I'll just go to bed. Maybe another time. 01:48
timotimo damn you, rakudobrew ;) 01:50
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dalek osystem: bea825e | (Pierre VIGIER)++ | META.list:
Add Attrx::PrivateAccessor to ecosystem

Automatic creation of private accessor for private attribute See: github.com/pierre-vigier/Perl6-Att...teAccessor		 02:09
osystem: d646512 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | META.list:
Merge pull request #122 from pierre-vigier/master

Add Attrx::PrivateAccessor to ecosystem
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dalek blets: 73b3a7f | lichtkind++ | docs/tablet-3-variables.txt:
added permutations to 3
 02:56
blets: 023c70c | lichtkind++ | docs/appendix-b-grouped.txt:
more links from B to G
blets: 950fa2c | lichtkind++ | docs/ (2 files):
update list methods
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pierre-vigier dalek, thanks for the pull request 03:23
i'm trying to install Test::META
however, it's failing with
Could not find META6:ver<0.0.4..*>
*resolve stage failed for META6:ver<0.0.4..*>: Project META6:ver<0.0.4..*> not found in the ecosystem)
trying to install it through panda install Test::META 03:24
( i already have an old version so , META6:ver<0.0.2>:auth<github:jonathanstowe>:api<> already installed )
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timotimo is that syntax even supported? 03:32
timotimo disappears into bed
pierre-vigier not sure, it's a complaint from panda 03:37
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dalek osystem: f9b9c49 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | META.list:
AttrX::PrivateAccessor's META.info renamed to META6.json
 04:17
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pierre-vigier Small question, how to Test a "BEGIN" time behavior, to check if it dies when needed? 05:29
even in a dies-ok , it dies before arriving there
perigrin I'm not a perl6 person but I'm awake ... if I were me I'd try BEGIN dies-ok 05:30
pierre-vigier i'll try, i'm thinking to try eval-dies-ok
perigrin see if putting it in the phaser dwims. 05:31
pierre-vigier and evaluate the code in run time
llfourn pierre-vigier: that's the ticket :)
pierre-vigier inded, eval-dies-ok wokrs 05:34
just needed to make sur to reimport my package in the evaluated string
thanks
llfourn EVAL should inhert from the surrounding lexical scope 05:35
pierre-vigier in my case, not sure why, it does not
my module export a trait
and the trait is not visible inside the Eval string
llfourn that is very strange 05:36
pierre-vigier let me create a gist
05:36 khw left
pierre-vigier switching eval-dies-ok to eval-lives-ok, to see the actual dying message 05:36
llfourn m: sub trait_mod:<is>(Any, :$goof!) { "win".say }; use Test; eval-lives-ok 'class herp is goof { }'; 05:37
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«not ok 1 - ␤␤# Failed test at /tmp/0tR1_8Jjcn line 1␤# Error: 'Test::herp' cannot inherit from 'goof' because it is unknown.␤»
llfourn hmMMmm
m: sub trait_mod:<is>(Any, :$goof!) { "win".say }; use MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL; EVAL 'class herp is goof { }'; 05:38
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /home/camelia/EVAL_0␤Type check failed in binding <anon>; expected Any but got herp␤at /home/camelia/EVAL_0:1␤»
llfourn m: sub trait_mod:<is>(Any:U, :$goof!) { "win".say }; use MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL; EVAL 'class herp is goof { }';
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /home/camelia/EVAL_0␤Type check failed in binding <anon>; expected Any but got herp␤at /home/camelia/EVAL_0:1␤»
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llfourn confused :S 05:38
pierre-vigier gist.github.com/pierre-vigier/528d...649a47266c
llfourn I can see that it doesn't work :) 05:39
pierre-vigier indeed, your example is similar
llfourn although it fails differently under vanila EVAL
well just thinking about it eval-lives-ok is gonna EVAL it in a different lexical scope 05:40
so doh my bad
pierre-vigier hum, might be, but i can test my module now, Thanks! 05:41
llfourn no worries :)
(though I don't think I did much lol)
pierre-vigier anyway to affect a value to a private attribute in custom constructor? self.bless does not handle private attribute 05:42
llfourn pierre-vigier: you can use BUILD or BUILDALL to set private attributes at construction time from args 05:43
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pierre-vigier oh, indeed, i need to "study" a bit more that part 05:43
llfourn pierre-vigier: or if you are feeling adventurous: github.com/LLFourn/p6-AttrX-InitArg 05:44
pierre-vigier perl6 is wonderfull, but BIG
llfourn yes :)
pierre-vigier oh, actually, i was reading your module jsut before :D
llfourn ah cool
pierre-vigier was searching if there was a "simpler" way, haha
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llfourn I made the module because ppl keep complaining that the simple way is not simple enough! 05:45
pierre-vigier i reused the same namespace, hope you don't mind
llfourn Of course, that's great
pierre-vigier github.com/pierre-vigier/Perl6-Att...teAccessor
llfourn ah did you see the PR to bring this feature into rakudo? 05:46
pierre-vigier did not find it
llfourn check out: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/674
pierre-vigier i want to add a disclaimer that it's a "temporary module
llfourn I'm not sure the PR will ever be merged but autarch++ did the work to demonstrate how it could be done 05:47
I thought you saw that then did yours but I guess it's just a coincidence
autarch I did?
llfourn autark is not you?
(oohhh autark is not you...) 05:48
pierre-vigier nope, it's not me
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pierre-vigier misread 05:49
llfourn rt.perl.org/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=127172 now I see it's a different autark
pierre-vigier so, nope, i did not see the PR, i add a similar need, and wanted to play with traits 05:50
llfourn well there you go
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mspo is moar threading/scheduler vulnerable to this go issue? github.com/golang/go/issues/1435 05:53
sortiz use Test; sub trait_mod:<is>(Mu, :$goof!) { "win".say }; lives-ok { class herp is goof { }};
llfourn pierre-vigier: btw you have added .precomp to your git repo github.com/pierre-vigier/Perl6-Att...master/lib
pierre-vigier oh, crap
sortiz m: use Test; sub trait_mod:<is>(Mu, :$goof!) { "win".say }; lives-ok { class herp is goof { }};
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«win␤ok 1 - ␤»
pierre-vigier let me remove it, thansk
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llfourn sortiz: hmmm well done 05:54
it should have been Mu of course
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pierre-vigier m: use Test; sub trait_mod:<is>(Mu, :$goof!) { "win".say }; eval-lives-ok q[ class herp is goof { }]; 05:55
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«not ok 1 - ␤␤# Failed test at /tmp/lNVxBcxZV_ line 1␤# Error: 'Test::herp' cannot inherit from 'goof' because it is unknown.␤»
pierre-vigier same problem 05:56
llfourn yep as you can eval-lives-ok is EVAL'd inside Test::
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llfourn not in the lexical scope in which it was called (of course) so you have to use it within the string. 05:56
sortiz m: use Test; eval-lives-ok q|sub trait_mod:<is>(Mu, :$goof!) { "win".say }; class herp is goof {};| 05:57
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«win␤ok 1 - ␤»
sortiz llfourn, yes. 05:58
pierre-vigier any way to capture the error given by eval-dies-ok?
to verify that the message is the one expected
llfourn pierre-vigier: I guess you want "eval-throws-ok" but I'm not sure it exists
you can just use normal EVAL and do a throws-ok inside it 05:59
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pierre-vigier i did not find it in the doc, but yes, EVAL and throws-ok 05:59
thanks again
llfourn no worries 06:00
sortiz m: use Test; say GLOBAL::Test::EXPORT::DEFAULT::.keys 06:03
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«(&isnt &plan &pass &cmp-ok &flunk &does-ok &subtest &unlike &like &use-ok &todo &skip-rest &eval-dies-ok &is-deeply &throws-like &ok &is &diag &done-testing &is-approx &skip &dies-ok &lives-ok &eval-lives-ok &MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL &nok &is_approx &isa-ok &can…»
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llfourn sortiz: do you need the GLOBAL? 06:04
sortiz Not really.
But safer ;)
llfourn I wonder why Test exports MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL 06:05
as a routine
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sortiz I dunno, use the source llfourn. 06:06
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sortiz m: need Test; say GLOBAL::Test::EXPORT::DEFAULT::.keys # Without import 06:08
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«(&isnt &plan &pass &cmp-ok &flunk &does-ok &subtest &unlike &like &use-ok &todo &skip-rest &eval-dies-ok &is-deeply &throws-like &ok &is &diag &done-testing &is-approx &skip &dies-ok &lives-ok &eval-lives-ok &MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL &nok &is_approx &isa-ok &can…»
llfourn the source doesn't exmplain much
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llfourn I find it strange that that works tbh 06:09
sortiz llfourn, use is need + import 06:10
llfourn no I mean how you are able to see Test::EXPORT
EXPORT is meant to UNIT scoped
therefore invisible but apparently if you do is export within a 'module' you can see it
sortiz m: need Test; say Test::EXPORT.WHAT; 06:12
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«(EXPORT)␤»
llfourn so apparently if it's done within a package it attaches it to the package as well or instead of the compunit 06:13
sortiz If I understand well EXPORT is UNIT scoped inside Test at compile time.
llfourn if it was UNIT scoped you could never see it via Test:: 06:14
sortiz TO collect all is export.
llfourn if you were to re-write Test without unit module Test at the top
you couldn't do that
sortiz So you can't "use" it. 06:15
llfourn but because it's in a module it adds it to Test::EXPORT instead of UNIT::EXPORT if I understandd correctly
or maybe both?
conclusion it adds it to both 06:19
sortiz: thanks for showing me that!
sortiz m: module Foo { sub bar is export {}; }; say UNIT::Foo::.keys 06:20
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«(EXPORT)␤»
sortiz In the same main UNIT 06:21
llfourn yeah and if you look at UNIT::EXPORT::DEFAULT bar will be there too
sortiz m: module Foo { sub bar is export {}; }; say UNIT::Foo::EXPORTS::.keys
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«(Grepper)␤»
llfourn (no S) 06:22
sortiz m: module Foo { sub bar is export {}; }; say UNIT::Foo::EXPORT::.keys
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«(DEFAULT ALL)␤»
llfourn m: module Foo { sub bar is export {}; }; say Foo::EXPORT::DEFAULT::.keys; say UNIT::EXPORT::DEFAULT::.keys;
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«(&bar)␤(&bar)␤»
llfourn so it goes to both
sortiz m: module Foo { sub bar is export(:special) {}; }; say UNIT::Foo::EXPORT::.keys 06:23
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«(special ALL)␤»
llfourn m: my module Foo { sub bar is export {}; }; say Foo::EXPORT::DEFAULT::.keys; say UNIT::EXPORT::DEFAULT::.keys; 06:24
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«(&bar)␤(&bar)␤»
llfourn UNIT::EXPORT is what's used to decide what to import 06:25
but I guess Foo::EXPORT gets a copy so that you can do import Foo;
sortiz Yes, and is export accepts any adverbs.
llfourn yes it's quite an awesome system overall 06:26
sortiz o/ bed time, see you.
llfourn sortiz: gnight o/ 06:27
dalek osystem: a6ba0b0 | LLFourn++ | META.list:
Add OO::Schema

  github.com/LLFourn/p6-OO-Schema		 06:28
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dalek c: ed2d1ce | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/modules.pod:
merge redundant examples and add type capture
 07:13
c: ebdd00a | (Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer)++ | doc/Language/modules.pod:
Merge pull request #347 from gfldex/master

merge redundant examples and add type capture
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nine .tell pierre-vigier panda does not yet support versioned requires 07:21
yoleaux nine: I'll pass your message to pierre-vigier.
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[Tux] Oof, Inline::Perl5 + IO → Segmentation fault 07:35
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[Tux] moar[10776]: segfault at 7f4166e41c0f ip 00007f4166e41c0f sp 00007ffe230bf970 error 15 07:37
FROGGS [Tux]: can you rakudobug that?
[Tux] I might be able to do that 07:38
FROGGS or I::P5-bug it
[Tux] but I have to go to a third party today, so little on-line time
csv-ip5xs 50000 18.076 12.351 07:39
test 50000 23.327 22.689
test-t 50000 12.662 11.767
csv-parser 50000 50.161 0.875
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hobbs would anyone like to review my Daily Programmer solution? www.reddit.com/r/dailyprogrammer/c...ld/cyxp08d 07:43
(challenge is in the expando box at the top)
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hobbs if there's anything I can do to make it thread without a lot of work, that would be nice 07:44
[Tux] FROGGS, seems to be a one-timer. I cannot reproduce :(
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FROGGS :/ 07:48
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El_Che hi 07:59
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_nadim Hi. And good morning all. 08:32
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moritz \o 08:39
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DrForr \m/ 08:41
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moritz wisdom of the day: the MOP does not DWIM 08:50
(re: RT#127263 which I'm minded to reject) 08:51
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FROGGS can't we make it accepts strings only? 08:58
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moritz not easily 09:10
'cause it's compiled before BOOTSTRAP.pm, so the Str type doesn't even exist yet 09:11
_nadim Why do warn and note output an extra newline? 09:13
moritz because it's convenient 09:15
_nadim except when the warnings go to a warnings log and you get extra newlines 09:16
moritz note that warnings are resumable exceptions, not just string output to STDERR 09:17
_nadim IMHO, it's better to let the user control the extra newline or extra whatnot. I noticed that but 'note' also outputs an extra NL.
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_nadim $*ERR.print does the job for me but feels counterintuitive compared to warn 'somehting' 09:18
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moritz or your mechanism that logs the warnings and which stumbles upon newlines could strip them 09:19
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_nadim still counterintuitive IMO but I will get used. Another thing i notice is that $?FILE is a full path when callframe.file has no path. 09:28
moritz that does seem a bit inconsistent 09:30
_nadim just wrinkles to iron out ;) 09:31
RabidGravy is the only difference between "Foo.?bar" and "Foo.*bar" that the latter returns a list of results? To me that would imply that it execute more than one candidate but I can't provole it to do so 09:36
moritz m: class Foo { multi method bar { 1 }; multi method bar { 2 } }; say Foo.*bar() 09:37
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«Ambiguous call to 'bar'; these signatures all match:␤:(Foo $: *%_)␤:(Foo $: *%_)␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/GfPsRa76Qv line 1␤␤»
RabidGravy yeah this is what confused me 09:38
moritz m: class BaseFoo { method bar { 1 } }; class Foo is BaseFoo { method bar { 2 } }; say Foo.*bar()
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«(2 1)␤»
moritz it doesn't work on the multi level, it seems, but rather on the proto/only level
RabidGravy ah! I hadn't tried that one
moritz I'd argue for removing .* from the core, because I haven't ever seen a use case for it, and it can be implemented in a module if it's needed eventually 09:39
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moritz *and* it's surprising 09:39
RabidGravy I can see a use case for it, but it doesn't work with roles, so militates against the "composition over inheritance" dogma 09:41
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nine A very strange feature, indeed. 09:47
moritz looks if the ecosystem uses it
moritz@hack:~/p6/perl6-all-modules$ git grep '\w\.\*\w+('|wc -l 09:48
0
nine I would have been surprised :) 09:49
moritz and still 0 if I remove the leading \w
nine Same result in the spec tests?
moritz nine: I'm sure it's tested
nine I think the regex is wrong 09:50
ack '\.\*\w+' in the spec tests gives lots of results where .* is part of a regex
I'm sure there must be some ecosystem module having that, too
moritz nine: hence the trailing ( 09:51
git grep -E '\.\*\w+\(' is the proper invocation
because with -E, it doesn't like \w
RabidGravy weird yellow light here today 09:52
moritz RabidGravy: it's the aliens 09:53
nine moritz: but ( is not mandatory for function calls :) 09:54
moritz nine: I know, it's a heuristic
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Ulti 528 modules in the ecosystem, that's growing relatively fast 10:26
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dalek c: c482acb | RabidGravy++ | doc/Type/Promise.pod:
The behaviour of allof/anyof was changed pre-Christmas.
 10:40
RabidGravy Ulti, if all the people who have contributed 1 module wrote another it would double :) All good. 10:42
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moritz RabidGravy: no 10:45
there are several who contributed more than one module
Ulti RabidGravy not sure about that most authors have written multiple modules if we had more contributors that would be true 10:46
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Ulti but thats what I mean I think thats what is about to happen so we could have a mini explosion that makes modules.perl6.org a little clunky to use without some changes 10:46
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gfldex m: my @a = Buf[uint8].new('abc'.ords); my @b = Buf[uint].new('ghj'.ords); dd @a X @b; 10:56
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«((Buf[uint8].new(97, 98, 99), Buf[uint].new(103, 104, 106)),).Seq␤»
gfldex should X know about Buf{uint8]? 10:57
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jnthn gfldex: You'd have to .list them. Unless you otherwise need Bufs, maybe would be better with native arrays? 10:59
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jnthn Buf is an item, like Str and Uni. A native array behaves like an array. 10:59
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gfldex jnthn: i will try that 11:01
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pmurias how are things going on with the Perl 6 version of metacpan? 11:10
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gfldex m: my uint8 @a = 'abc'.ords; my uint8 @b = 'ghj'.ords; dd @a, @b, @a +^ @b; 11:14
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«array[uint8].new(97, 98, 99)␤array[uint8].new(103, 104, 106)␤0␤»
gfldex does that do @a.elems +^ @b.elems ?
jnthn I'd have expected so
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gfldex m: my uint8 @a = 'abc'.ords; my uint8 @b = 'ghj'.ords; dd @a, @b, @a +^ @b; 11:14
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«array[uint8].new(97, 98, 99)␤array[uint8].new(103, 104, 106)␤0␤»
gfldex m: my uint8 @a = 'abc'.ords; my uint8 @b = 'ghj'.ords; dd @a, @b, @a Z+^ @b;
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«(100, 107, 105).Seq␤»
jnthn You'd have to hyper it to distribute it 11:15
gfldex that works but returns Seq instead of array[uint8]
m: my uint8 @a = 'abc'.ords; my uint8 @b = 'ghj'.ords; dd @a, @b, @a >>+^<< @b;
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«array[uint8].new(97, 98, 99)␤array[uint8].new(103, 104, 106)␤(6, 10, 9)␤»
gfldex m: my uint8 @a = 'abc'.ords; my uint8 @b = 'ghj'.ords; dd @a, @b, (@a >>+^<< @b).WHAT; 11:16
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«array[uint8].new(97, 98, 99)␤array[uint8].new(103, 104, 106)␤Cannot look up attributes in a type object␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/a63BTVhhi5 line 1␤␤»
gfldex m: my uint8 @a = 'abc'.ords; my uint8 @b = 'ghj'.ords; dd @a, @b, (@a >>+^<< @b).^name;
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«array[uint8].new(97, 98, 99)␤array[uint8].new(103, 104, 106)␤"List"␤»
jnthn Why would it return array[uint8]? Z is lazy. Hyperops otoh should retain structure...not sure they currently do.
(One thing we didn't manage to get in prior to 6.c...guess that's for 6.d now)
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RabidGravy regarding the ecosystem, right now there are 126 distinct authors for an average of 4.2 per author 11:26
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RabidGravy (and the top 10 most prolific represent more than a third of those) 11:29
timotimo o/
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aqualung why do "~$_.say" and "say ~$_" behave differently in this context? pastebin.com/cGZ29Qfm 11:43
timotimo in ~$_.say you stringify the result of $_.say, whereas for say ~$_, you stringify $_ before saying it 11:44
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timotimo try (~$_).say to see this better 11:44
_nadim can I alias a sub to another sub? I guess yes but how. 11:45
RabidGravy or $_.Str.say
_nadim, my &foo = &bar;
m: sub foo() { say "I'm foo" }; my &bar = &foo; bar(); 11:46
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«I'm foo␤»
_nadim hmm, much nicer than mucking around with |c! Thanks 11:49
aqualung thanks, I guess I was hoping perl would just figure it out on its own with some magic 11:50
RabidGravy so much nicer than ye olde "no strict 'refs'; *{bar} = &foo" as well
timotimo do we have &foo.blahsame and &foo.nextblah and such?
aqualung: nah, prefixes are always looser than method calls 11:51
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_nadim RabidGravy: yes nicer but *bar = &foo was sufficient 11:53
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leont Great 11:53
Tests fail because «expected: $("build",) got: $["build"]»… 11:54
timotimo m: say ($("build",)).WHAT; say ($["build"]).WHAT
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«(List)␤(Array)␤»
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timotimo ah, well ... 11:54
RabidGravy Actually it has to be 'perl -e 'sub foo { print "Im foo" }; no strict "refs"; *{"bar"} = \&foo; bar()'' 11:55
aqualung Will installing the runtime take less time in the future? I know it warns you about taking long but it took 2 hours to install everything 11:56
leont Seems using binding instead of assignment solves my case, but it's still a bit annoying that it's that sensitive
RabidGravy which is why I guess there are 3 million Sub::* modules on CPAN
moritz aqualung: it is much faster when you have more RAM
pmurias what's koalatee?
RabidGravy "It's fine if you squint at it" 11:57
aqualung Got a reference as to how long it takes on something that is not a toaster like my machine?
moritz aqualung: five minutes maybe
aqualung when using rakudobrew? 11:58
RabidGravy It has the attributes of a good software but no guarantees are made whether it works
aqualung, is this on a rapberry pi by any chance? that's about how long it takes there 11:59
pmurias RabidGravy: it's mentioned on the module ecosystem page but it's not described
aqualung it is not, just not a very powerful machine
moritz aqualung: or maybe ten 12:00
abraxxa i've installed v6.c yesterday on the macbook pro of my better half and I must say the experience was aweseom!
yoleaux 13 Jan 2016 17:38Z <jnthn> abraxxa: Sorry, had to disappear for a bit... Yes, time off was useful, thanks for asking. :)
moritz certainless less than half an hour, even on my PC from 2002 or so
timotimo aqualung: TWO HOURS?!? 12:01
aqualung i kid you not
RabidGravy pmurias, I think the criteria are approximately like, has a README, has a conforming META.info, has tests and has some POD
nine leont: is-deeply was carried over from Perl 5 without much thought to the differences with Perl 6. It's also hard, because sometimes you _do_ want it to be very strict and other times, you don't care if you get a () or a []
timotimo aqualung: last time i heard an installation time of that dimension was when somebody compiled rakudo on a raspberry pi
abraxxa git in Terminal told me that XCode has to be installed, a gui pop asked me if I want to do that, 2 minutes later it was installed and I could git clone rakudobrew and rakudobrew install!
timotimo maybe you were running out of RAM? 12:02
abraxxa jnthn: good to read! ;)
aqualung don't think I ever ran out even though it ran quite low when I checked from time to time
RabidGravy timotimo, yeah, but that's with no JIT and 512MB of ram
abraxxa and I wrote a small script to solve a brain-twister ;)
leont Also, is there any reason why when can't take an argument?
timotimo i don't think "no jit" makes such a big difference, tbh
abraxxa will post it in a gist on github
hit a bug with hyper/race though when optimizing it 12:03
timotimo abraxxa: hyper/race and grep currently don't happy.
but i haven't actually looked closely at how much code we map into main memory when compiling the core setting
leont I currently want to do «when Callable -> &function {} when List -> @list {}», but that complains about «Too few positionals passed; expected 1 argument but got 0»
abraxxa timotimo: yes, duckduckgo reported the RT as third hit ;)
timotimo good duckie
abraxxa my rbp1 with 256mb ram needed 1gig of swapfile and using only 16mb for the gpu to being able to compile 2015.10 12:04
would be bad to post rough numbers regarding compile mem consumption somewhere
timotimo would be .. bad?
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abraxxa btw i'd prefer to find alle Perl 6 related infos on perl6.org and not have additional sites like getperl6.org that require additional SEO to get into the top hits on search engines 12:05
meeting, later
aqualung I understand one no longer needs "using strict" and "using warnings "all" as they are on by default. Correct? 12:06
nine aqualung: yes
aqualung A very welcome change
nine One of the advantages of not having legacy code to deal with
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aqualung is HTTP::UserAgent the replacement of LWP::UserAgent? 12:08
nine yes
RabidGravy which reminds me, I was going to do something to it today 12:10
but can't remember what 12:11
aqualung What do seasoned p5 veterans think of p6 so far?
FROGGS aqualung: please report github issues for anything strange you encounter with HTTP::UserAgent
RabidGravy I love it :)
nine aqualung: for me it brought much fun back into programming :)
RabidGravy yeah, exactly
FROGGS aqualung: it is hard to say from the inside of the echo chamber 12:12
aqualung Yeah I figured as much
I was partial to it at first but after playing around with it it is really growing on me
FROGGS aqualung: some love it, some hate it, some just fear that that P5's opportunities get limited over time due to P6 12:13
aqualung: what I think is more interesting is that Perl 6 attracts hackers from other languages
aqualung: say python or js (node.js) or whatever 12:14
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awwaiid aqualung: I love Perl 6 -- I think it is a great polyglot language; an amazing language adopting and inventing concepts from TONS of sources 12:14
timotimo i got pulled in from python
FROGGS so I think that Perl 6 not even has the chance to be cool, but even to stay for a long time 12:15
FROGGS .oO( yeah, timotimo is a Slytherin )
aqualung I got into p5 because unlike many modern languages it gives you the freedom to do things the way you want 12:16
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aqualung on top of that it is not as verbose as many others 12:16
timotimo i'm a montytongue
FROGGS aqualung: Perl 6 is also exactly that 12:17
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aqualung FROGGS: Yeah, at first I was afraid they would take away some of the freedom I like about perl. But p6 retains that perl spirit 12:19
awwaiid googles montytongue
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DrForr These days I speak fluent parsertongue :) 12:21
dalek c: 6f7116e | RabidGravy++ | doc/Language/concurrency.pod:
Altered behaviour of anyof/allof

Add an additional example to getting the result of allof
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FROGGS DrForr: *g* 12:22
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leont m: subset Filename of Any where { $_ ~~ Str|IO::Path }; sub file(Str(Filename) $file) { say $file }; file("foo") 12:24
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«foo␤»
leont m: subset Filename of Any where * ~~ Str|IO::Path; sub file(Str(Filename) $file) { say $file }; file("foo")
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot invoke this object␤»
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leont That surprises me 12:24
m: subset Filename of Any where Str|IO::Path; sub file(Str(Filename) $file) { say $file }; file("foo")
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot invoke this object␤»
nine m: subset Filename of Any where Str|IO::Path; sub file(Filename $file) { say $file }; file("foo") 12:26
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«foo␤»
nine leont: did you mean this? ^^
leont m: subset Filename of Any where Str|IO::Path; sub file(Filename $file) { say $file }; file("foo".IO) 12:27
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«Constraint type check failed for parameter '$file'␤ in sub file at /tmp/oDBtYKzu66 line 1␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/oDBtYKzu66 line 1␤␤»
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leont Not really, the coercion to Str was quite on purpose, though I could code around it 12:29
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aqualung Alright I am gonna go and try to break HTTP::UserAgent, thanks for the help 12:32
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Skarsnik Hello 12:34
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RabidGravy erp 12:42
Skarsnik derp?
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timotimo yarp 12:50
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gfldex hobbs: my version is 34% faster gist.github.com/gfldex/0e4b6577937.../revisions 12:53
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RabidGravy RARR! 12:56
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timotimo why not 34x faster? 12:58
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gfldex that's for when jnthn has made rakudo well fast 12:58
RabidGravy innit bruv 12:59
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gfldex i will keep it, both the original and my version, to see how optimisations play out on both variants 12:59
timotimo OK
just a quick question
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gfldex i hope my version will play nicer with the future optimiser 12:59
timotimo why do you use +^ and not + ?
gfldex i didn't start that bit madness! 13:00
timotimo i'd expect the latter to be a bit faster, still
and making $byte non-native-typed will give a nice speed boost with the way rakudo currently pessimizes native ints, too. 13:01
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gfldex the whole thing is in response to www.reddit.com/r/dailyprogrammer/c...ld/cyxp08d 13:01
so there is a propaganda aspect to it where i can nicely point into the future 13:02
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timotimo oh, ok 13:02
gfldex i iz propagandacat! i haz a truuf!
timotimo so will you make my changes and see if it makes things faster at all?
what does a --profile look like?
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El_Che what's the syntax to call methodnames as a variable: $obj.$methodname ? 13:12
(besides things like dispatch tables?) 13:13
leont $obj."$methodname"
$obj."$methodname"()
El_Che thanks (tried .$methodname .<<$methodname>> :) )
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dalek c: 6c6515e | (Fritz Zaucker)++ | doc/Language/modules.pod:
Suggest automated testing through Travis-CI
 13:20
c: 7286715 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Language/modules.pod:
Merge pull request #350 from zaucker/patch-2

Suggest automated testing through Travis-CI
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dalek rl6-roast-data: 930a466 | coke++ | / (6 files):
today (automated commit)
 13:32
href="https://modules.perl6.org:">modules.perl6.org: 792fdd4 | (Fritz Zaucker)++ | templates/root/index.html.ep:
Link to the "official" Travis Perl6 instructions.

See also my PR on github.com/perl6/doc/pull/350. This PR makes modules.perl6.org and doc.perl6.org/language/modules consistent.		 13:34
href="https://modules.perl6.org:">modules.perl6.org: 90d1f32 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | templates/root/index.html.ep:
Merge pull request #54 from zaucker/patch-1

Link to the "official" Travis Perl6 instructions.
13:37 kjs_ left
[Coke] me waves at [particle] whom he saw join the backscroll. 13:38
gfldex timotimo: --profile: gist.github.com/e6f32ca9851f1456376b
Skarsnik gah, I hate when the restauration of one of my vm crash x) 13:40
timotimo gfldex: ugh. look at routines tab with "exclusive time" sorted descending
the code is spending 29% of its time in "find_best_dispatchee" 13:41
gfldex timotimo: what's causing that? 13:43
Skarsnik someone has an idea how to have L<> in a table (in pod) that get correctly interpreted? 13:44
timotimo dunno, i'm looking for that in the call graph now
hm. HYPER seems to cause that at least in one instance 13:45
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perlawhirl hello 13:46
perlers
what is this code (from Terminal::Print) doing? : $raw ~~ s:nth(*)[\d+] = "%d"; 13:47
timotimo i think it replaces the last instance of digits with "%d"
m: my $raw = "hi there 1 2 3 how are you 99 99 1024"; $raw ~~ s:nth(*)[\d+] = "%d"; say $raw 13:48
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«hi there 1 2 3 how are you 99 99 %d␤»
perlawhirl what is s:nth ?
timotimo substitute + only the $n'th one 13:49
gfldex: could you try what happens when you replace all those »+foo« with Z+foo instead?
nine gfldex: the 8 calls to rand for one resuling byte seems excessive
timotimo nine: well, it's needed if the probability isn't 50%
nine no, it's not :) 13:50
gfldex nine: i agree but don't got a better idea
timotimo oh?
nine: at this point random-byte takes only 0.86% of the total time :)
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perlawhirl which page of docs can i find about substitution and nth 13:51
timotimo crossover is at 0.21%, hamming-distance is at 0.16%
doc.perl6.org/routine/subst - here's "nth"
nine Took me a while, but I think this could work: thinking in integers makes it easier. rand gives you essentially 32 random bits. Divide that into groups of 4 and shift them, so you get 8 nibbles. Check for each nibble if it is < $prob / 8. That's your random bits.
timotimo mutate is at 0.14% ...
[Tux] timotimo++; # Inline::Perl5 syntax simplification 13:54
Skarsnik Is that a bug that I can't put link (L<>) in a table in pod? It get litteral written like L&lt;Test::META|modules.perl6.org/dist/Test::META&gt;
timotimo Skarsnik: yeah, that's a limitation of the current pod parser 13:55
gfldex Skarsnik: that's a bug
timotimo nine: i'm not sure i understand, though :) 13:56
Skarsnik damn, I wanted to add a list of modules tool and co in the documentation
does it work with list?
timotimo lists? 13:57
gfldex =item
timotimo yeah, that should work no-problem
gfldex SHODAN: that works, we got plenty of that already 13:58
timotimo SUPERNOVA
gfldex Skarsnik: ^^^^
SHODAN ok
gfldex sorry mate
SHODAN :)
np
gfldex timotimo: i tries Z- and it's a lot slower 13:59
timotimo huh? 14:00
can you give the --profile of that, too?
and the code?
Skarsnik hm, should I replace .pm with .pm6 in the module doc? 14:02
I mean, what is the recommanded? personnaly I prefer .pm6 x)
nvm, the doc is quite clear on this x) 14:03
gfldex Skarsnik: .pm6 is less confusing on windows
Skarsnik Source files generally use the standard C<.pm> extension, and scripts or 14:04
executables use C<.pl>. However, if you wish to highlight that the file is
written in Perl 6 you can use the C<.pm6> extension for modules, and the
C<.p6> extension for scripts.
erf
gfldex timotimo: it's still running
nemo m: say 2⁶;
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«64␤»
nemo huh...
why does that not work on my local install
m: say 2¹⁰
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«1024␤»
Skarsnik how old is your rakudo? 14:05
PerlJam nemo: how old is your local install?
nemo PerlJam: whatever the heck Ubuntu 14.04 LTS is packaging. Bah. I bet there's something in backports. God I hate ubuntu's backports mechanism
nemo checks
screws us w/ hedgewars every release 14:06
Skarsnik probably 2015.11?
PerlJam nemo: that's *got* to be too old. :)
nemo aw. no backports
gfldex it helps alot to add --profile when you need a profile :-/
nemo PerlJam: rakudo 2013.12-1
O_o
PerlJam nemo: way way waaay old
nemo: I normally use rakudobrew to get my perl6 14:07
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Ulti 􏿽xA7/win 2 14:13
-___-
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gfldex timotimo: gist.github.com/bbf09982f08dc677a674 14:16
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RabidGravy what larks 14:21
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[Coke] we should add a timebomb; if your rakudo is more than a year old, warn when running. If it's more than 2 years old, error out. :| 14:32
(no I'm not serious, you monsters.) 14:33
hahainternet i think i agree with the warning 14:35
in fact i'd probably configure that to a week for me
because i don't reliably rebuild rakudo, but any time i come across a problem i find annoying in any other language i try and drop to perl6 and give it a go
Skarsnik could have been a good idea before 6.c release x)
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nemo maybe I'm failing at searching, but I can't find any backport request for updating rakudo in LTS. weird 14:39
esp strange since you guys just did a release
pmurias [Coke]: maybe we should try the autoupdating "evergreen" model the browser are doing ;) 14:40
[Tux] I merged the suggested changes and now Travis fails :( travis-ci.org/Tux/CSV/jobs/102357841 14:41
Skarsnik nemo, they probably wait for the next release (like they should do) 14:42
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RabidGravy yeah, haven't seen a rakudo for fedora recently 14:50
"This is perl6 version 2015.11 built on MoarVM version 2015.11"
leont I'm seeing «Failed to stat file: no such file or directory» in spurt (the directory is existent), I'm confused 14:52
I'm only seeing it when the first argument is an IO::Path, and probably only when the file has been spurted before… 14:53
Skarsnik hm make html on the doc fail for me :(
Writing html/js/search.js ... 14:54
Failed to open file /home/skarsnik/devel/doc/html/js/search.js: no such file or directory
gfldex Skarsnik: is that a local build after you changed stuff? 14:55
Skarsnik yes
I updated the repository before that too 14:56
gfldex Skarsnik: you could try github.com/gfldex/pod-to-bigpage and see how far it gets 14:57
Skarsnik gah running make html regenerate everything x) 14:58
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RabidGravy I might add an "await-ok" to something as I'm getting bored of typing "ok do { await $foo }, 'blah';" 14:59
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Skarsnik sound like a good thing to add to Test 14:59
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leont still thinks Test is growing too organically 15:00
RabidGravy or a Test::Async in the ecosystem
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RabidGravy actually the latter is probably the best because there are quite a lot of patterns emerging in what I'm testing right now 15:03
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leont Yeah, modular solutions are good 15:04
Skarsnik Yes, but there is a balance between having script that look like; use Test; use Test::MoreStuff; use Test::ForOneThing; use Test::YANT; and use Test
leont Given a fat interface, you can be sure half of those functions won't age well 15:05
RabidGravy That doesn't worry me too much
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leont Being able to replace them with something better by using a different module 5 years from now is a feature 15:05
RabidGravy i.e. using lots of specific modules
yeah
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Skarsnik The issue is when there is too much module, a new user have no idea where to get something he want 15:06
RabidGravy good search, good documentation 15:07
use of tags in META files
Skarsnik tags that are not 'specified'?
RabidGravy and if you want you can make a Test::Everything 15:08
tags are specified in S22
Skarsnik I mean the list of tags
RabidGravy why should they be specified, people are supposed to be intelligent and if they want people to find the module they should use sensible tags 15:09
leont RabidGravy: that ends with Test::Most, half of the stuff that is uses isn't recommended anymore, and at least one function is a notorious incompatibility
RabidGravy "folksonomy"
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timotimo you know the tagging system python employs? 15:10
RabidGravy leont, as I said, I don't mind using loads of modules
timotimo, probably as shit as the npm one right? 15:11
leont META.json has keywords too, no one uses them though
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RabidGravy I think it's just "tags" : design.perl6.org/S22.html#tags 15:13
timotimo RabidGravy: i have no idea.
RabidGravy if it ain't documented it don't exist
timotimo pypi.python.org/pypi?%3Aaction=list_classifiers - this thing
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RabidGravy that's more of a classification system or full-on taxonomy though, must have been bike-shedded to pieces 15:15
so python, I don't think that kind of thing would fly around here
mspo they look like oids 15:16
RabidGravy though it would allow people to give vent to their authoritarian streak and everyone else could ignore it
there is a sot of classification on CPAN but it's not really kept up to date as searching has approved 15:17
improved 15:18
timotimo at least these classifiers are used throughout the pypi
RabidGravy sure
_nadim how can one capture output to $*ERR to check it in a test?
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RabidGravy replace $*ERR with some handle like object that captures, I believe there are some in the ecosystem 15:19
timotimo yeah, IO::Capture::Simple and IO::MiddleMan 15:20
_nadim thanks
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nemo Skarsnik: well, without a bug filed requesting it to be added to backports, will never know 15:23
Skarsnik: typically some maintainer would file one of those and they would evaluate it - it isn't automatically added to LTS after all 15:24
you have to manually upgrade
aaand have opted into backports too
but I can't even find a request
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ZoffixW There's actually Test::Output modules.perl6.org/repo/Test::Output 15:27
Oh, nm, for now 15:28
Just use IO::MiddleMan :) I had issues with capturing output of Test.pm with Test::Output, which is why I wrote IO::MiddleMan, but I see I haven't yet had a chance to update Test::Output to use it. It may be broken atm :P
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ZoffixW There's Test::IO::Capture inside IO::Capture::Simple github.com/sergot/IO-Capture-Simpl...Capture.pm 15:29
sena_kun How much situation with error handling changed since perl6advent.wordpress.com/2011/12/...ceptional/ ? 15:33
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ZoffixW There probably have been changes and new exception types and messages. Why? 15:35
El_Che I had the same use case for STDERR. I ended changing the method adding a boolean to the signature with a default. Signatures in perl 6 == love 15:36
nine m: sub rand-byte($prob) {my $thresh = $prob * 16; my int32 $rand = (2**32).rand.Int; my $byte = [+|] (^8).map({(($rand +> ($_ * 4)) +& 0x0f < $thresh) +< $_}); }; say rand-byte(0.2);
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«72␤»
nine timotimo: ^^^^
gfldex: ^^^
Of course this is bound to be dog slow. It's just a demonstration of the idea :) 15:37
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ZoffixW m: m: sub rand-byte($prob) {my $thresh = $prob * 16; my int32 $rand = (2**32).rand.Int; my $byte = [+|] (^8).map({(($rand +> ($_ * 4)) +& 0x0f < $thresh) +< $_}); }; say rand-byte(0.2) for ^4 .hyper: :1batch 15:38
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«64␤48␤»
ZoffixW m: m: sub rand-byte($prob) {my $thresh = $prob * 16; my int32 $rand = (2**32).rand.Int; my $byte = [+|] (^8).map({(($rand +> ($_ * 4)) +& 0x0f < $thresh) +< $_}); }; say rand-byte(0.2) for ^4 .hyper: :1batch
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«0␤114␤10␤74␤»
ZoffixW Weird, eh?
(varying number of results) 15:39
mspo I wrote a replacement for the call out to |fmt in p6doc using a grammar: gist.github.com/msporleder/29644fce49e662aa7ae4
aside from using "say" in the action instead of a method to return the result, can anyone tell me all the stuff I did wrong? 15:40
stmuk_ hmm it probably shouldn't even call out to |fmt .. there was a regexp to do that anyway 15:41
mspo I was thinking a smart regex could do the whole job in one line :) 15:43
stmuk_ Pod::To::Text twrap probably does this already
FROGGS mspo: you can just do "make ~$/" instead of calling it as a method
mspo but couldn't get it just right
stmuk_ assuming you are just trying to restrict the number of columns of p6doc at the command line? 15:44
mspo FROGGS: make/made was very confusing for me; I still don't get it
stmuk_: that's what p6doc does, yes
stmuk_: I was trying to emulate some fmt(1) behavior like retaining leading whitspace and blank lines
stmuk_ mspo: so you want to add a third way of doing the same thing to the two already existing? :)
mspo stmuk_: I want to suggest removing the call to |fmt in p6doc and I wanted to write a replacement as an exercise 15:45
FROGGS mspo: "make foo" assigns foo to $/.made, so that you got your hands on $<submatch>.made from the outer action method
stmuk_ actually your way is probably better .. I think Larry was complaining about the formatting behaviour a couple of days back
I don't understand why |fmt was added
mspo indeed
stmuk_ maybe remove |fmt and extend the Pod::To::Text twrap (which is in Rakudo core unfortunately not p6doc) 15:46
mspo FROGGS: I will read that until I grok it ;)
dalek blets: 8552c5c | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-b-grouped.txt:
more links from B o A and G
FROGGS mspo: :o) 15:47
stmuk_ the formating should be more aware of the pod structure I'm sure
PerlJam mspo: make puts things in your .ast or .made and that's how you communicate information "up" the parse. (Does that help any?) 15:48
stmuk_ mspo: see aldo irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2016-01-12#i_11871389 15:49
PerlJam mspo: I know I didn't say anything substantially different from FROGGS but sometimes different words provide different perspective :)
stmuk_ ^ also
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mspo stmuk_: ideally the pod would be parsed into some kind of DOM-ish or parse-tree-ish thing, I would think 15:52
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mspo stmuk_: and each section could be fed through the correct formatting 15:52
alos the "80" is arbitrary
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stmuk_ mspo: yes that would be excellent 15:53
mspo moar --doc is the real command
oh wait, maybe not 15:56
leont Can I put a BagHash in a %!attribute? 16:02
Or a Set for that matter? 16:03
RabidGravy m: class Foo { has %.foo is BagHash; }; say Foo.new.foo.WHAT; # yes 16:05
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«(BagHash)␤»
pmurias leont: re Test::Most, having a Test::Bloat for those who don't want to import each module seems at least a better solution than cramming stuff into Test
leont True
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RabidGravy leont, in general "is" on an atribute (or variable) sets the container type 16:09
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muraiki can someone please help me understand what I'm doing wrong in this tiny grammar? gist.github.com/muraiki/e856a437ab8d60f055ff 16:09
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garu_ everyone++ # super excited to learn perl 6 \o/ 16:10
timotimo token doesn't have backtracking
so the .+ will eat until the end of string and not find a >, then abort 16:11
muraiki timotimo: d'oh
timotimo it should be enough to just use "regex" instead of "token"
:)
muraiki yay! thanks so much
man, I even remember reading that in the docs
it just didn't click
PerlJam or just use a non-greedy quantifier
leont RabidGravy: thanks, that seems to work 16:12
RabidGravy :)
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_nadim Hmmm! Does the test framework squirel away symboles in some way? something that works outside the test framework get me the error "variable $author is not declared. It is, the line above the function call. 16:16
pmurias jnthn: t/moar/02-multidim.t is great, having to just implement instead of rever engineer those all those ops is awesome
PerlJam _nadim: show the code :) 16:17
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jnthn pmurias: :) 16:18
dalek c: 86f452a | (Sylvain Colinet)++ | doc/Language/modules (2 files):
Add a page with a list of modules/tool related to module developpement
timotimo _nadim: potentially giving the test function a string to eval?
dalek c: 4e08a04 | (David Brunton)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod:
Grammar-o on its

Possessive form of it.
c: 009c4f4 | (Steve Mynott)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod:
Merge pull request #351 from dbrunton/patch-1

Grammar-o on its
timotimo and then it gets eval'd inside the test package? 16:19
_nadim timotimo: yes, it goe to an EVAL
timotimo right. then it won't see the symbols in your local scope 16:20
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timotimo unless it takes special care to evaluate in the caller's scope 16:20
which it might do
_nadim removing those tests make the tests a bit moot. 16:21
how do I force the callers scope on?
wollmers I finished the port of the fastest P5 diff/LCS implementation to P6 LCS::BV.
_nadim PerlJam: code is not so interesting ;) 16:22
wollmers It's on Panda. 2-4 times faster than P6 Algorithm::Diff 16:23
nine wollmers: could this be a complete replacement for Algorithm::Diff?
jnthn _nadim: The typical trick is to pass a closure that does the EVAL
wollmers LCS::BV benchmark 500-1000 cases per second, P5 50000-60000 on core i5 (MacAir) 16:25
nine: not completely. It implements only the core loop. Takes two ArrayRefs, returns an array of indices. 16:26
nine wollmers: so could it be done as a patch to Algorithm::Diff? My point being, that as a user, I'd be looking for "diff" and would never find something called "LCS::BV" 16:27
wollmers nine: like Algorthm::Diff::LCSindx(), but returns n x 2 array, not 2 x n array.
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_nadim jnthn: that would mean changing the code that I have to test. tests changing code is a bit "bleahh". In this case it is just a normal string interpolation in t.he EVAL, maybe I should just turn a blind eye as it is part of P6 16:30
wollmers nine: Algorithm::Diff allows custom comparison function, and custom hash. Also has convenience formatting around.
nine: that's the reason I did an extra module. The API of A::Diff is one of the reasons for slowness. 16:32
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ramillies Hello. I've recently encountered a weird behavior of some string comparisons and could use some explanation of it: 16:35
p6: say ("a" xx 1000).map(+("a" le *)).index(0)
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«414␤»
wollmers Next I will try nativecall in P6 for LCS::BV. Should allow estimated speed of 5 mio cases/sec in the pure C part. Will see, how much the interface P6/C slows it down.
ramillies To me, this appears like 'a' le 'a' is true the first 414 times I ask, and then it turns to false. Is there some rational explanation, or is it a bug? 16:36
wollmers Sorry, should read 0.5 mio cases. 16:37
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dalek c: a5955cc | (Steve Mynott)++ | doc/Type/Str.pod:
add newline after Usage:
 16:40
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nine ramillies: that's...very odd 16:43
jnthn Surely a bug, probably in dynamic optimization given it kicks in after a lot of iterations.
ramillies Good that I'm not the only one who doesn't like it.
nine JIT bug 16:44
ramillies By the way, it doesn't happen for any other characters, just for the "boundary edge".
"boundary case", I meant.
nine MVM_JIT_DISABLE=1 fixes it
ramillies True. Thank you.
mspo ramillies: what is * doing in that case? 16:45
nine ramillies: please rakudobug it
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ramillies * is the parameter for map. 16:45
+("a" le *) is a lambda which gives 1 if the incoming string is ge "a", 0 if not. 16:46
nine: Lemme find out how, I still need to find my way around here. 16:47
wollmers p6: sue v6;
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile␤Undeclared routine:␤ sue used at line 1. Did you mean 'sum'?␤␤»
16:47 prammer joined
mspo but the incoming string is always 'a'? 16:48
ramillies Yes.
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wollmers p6: <a b c>.eSt; 16:48
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«Method 'eSt' not found for invocant of class 'List'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/tmpfile line 1␤␤»
mspo ramillies: shouldn't you be using $_ ?
ramillies The point is that when I compare 1000 'a's with an 'a', it's True the first 414 times and then False.
That would do the exactly same thing, I think. 16:49
ramillies goes to file it as a bug
donaldh I think the perl6 idiom is to use the whatever *
yoleaux 12 Jan 2016 07:47Z <nine> donaldh: I know it-s perl6-debug-m. There's also perl6-debug-j, so I just replace "perl6-debug" in $*EXECUTABLE by "perl6"
12 Jan 2016 07:48Z <nine> donaldh: do you have any other precomp issues?
wollmers p6: amp { } <a b c>;
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile␤Missing required term after infix␤at /tmp/tmpfile:1␤------> 3amp { } <a b c>7⏏5;␤ expecting any of:␤ prefix␤ term␤»
wollmers p6: asy 'a'; 16:50
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/tmpfile␤Undeclared routine:␤ asy used at line 1. Did you mean 'say', 'any'?␤␤»
sena_kun Is self.attr much slower than $!attr? 16:51
jnthn sena_kun: At the moment, yes. In a few months time, with further optimization work that's on the way, no.
wollmers Where can I find the code of the logic 'sue ...' -> Did you mean 'sum'? This can be improved. 16:52
sena_kun jnthn, hmm, thank you. I don't like that $!some notation much, it looks a bit like bool negation. Then I'll use $!some anyway. 16:54
Hotkeys nah bool negation would be !$some :p
(or !$!some if you're daring)
sena_kun Hotkeys, I know it, but it's tricky and easy to do typo. 16:55
jnthn It is, though it's likely to be caught at compile time
m: class A { has $!a; method m() { say !$a } }
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/YQhuAXv3L_␤Variable '$a' is not declared. Did you mean '$!a'?␤at /tmp/YQhuAXv3L_:1␤------> 3class A { has $!a; method m() { say !7⏏5$a } }␤»
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Hotkeys I like the $! and $. notations 16:56
hobbs gfldex: thanks for going over my code :)
jnthn But yeah, if you're scanning code quickly it may take a little getting used to
sena_kun jnthn, it makes sense then.
bioexpress Hello, I've found this in the bugreport #127064:
"And if $s happened to contain anything other than literals, so I had to us my @matching = @lines.grep(/ <$s> /);"
Hotkeys but the first time I saw $.method in code I read it like "Oh $ is sugar for self"
bioexpress Is this a bug (that I have to use the "<>" in this cases) or is the bug only the slower speed? 16:57
dalek blets: 972f4f1 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/ (2 files):
added .combinations
mspo fwiw my perl6 does not produce 414 16:58
it says 0
sena_kun Also, is there any manual about passing arguments by values/by references in functions?
16:58 donaldh left, kubrat left
ramillies mspo: That's even weirder, it should say Nil. 16:59
Didn't you write lt instead of le?
dalek p: 51d350b | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/ (2 files):
[js] Start working on multidimensional ops.

Make them work on 1 dimensional arrays.
p: aa0cd13 | (Pawel Murias)++ | src/vm/js/ (6 files):
[js] Partial implementation of multi-dim arrays.

Support throwing errors from internals by throw new NQPException("...") instead of always using a ctx.
mspo ramillies: doesn't the (+( turn it into a number?
sena_kun By "manual" I meant "In case1 by value, in case2 by reference, etc" thing. 17:00
ramillies mspo: It does.
mspo > say ("a" xx 1000).map(+("a" le *)).index(0)
0
[Coke] mspo: what version of rakudo do you have?
17:00 psy_ joined
[Coke] Note: anyone who has a version < 2015.12, yes, your stuff is going to be different. Please upgrade to Christmas. 17:00
Hotkeys m: say ("a" xx 1000).map(+("a" le *)).index(0) 17:01
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«414␤»
jnthn bioexpress: /$s/ means something very different from /<$s>/
17:01 psy_ left
jnthn bioexpress: The first means "just match literally the text in the string" 17:01
ramillies mspo: That means: Make a list of 1000 "a"s. For every thing in it, compare "a" <= (the thing). When it is True, put 1 in the list, when False, put 0. Then give index of the first 0
jnthn bioexpress: <$s> means "compile the thing in $s as if it's regex syntax" - which is naturally going to be slower 17:02
mspo [Coke]: Nov
17:02 psy_ joined
ramillies mspo: Essentially: tell me how many comparisons "a" le "a" must I do before it starts to be false. 17:02
jnthn bioexpress: Also, my Str $s = 'foo'; ... /$s/ is likely to be faster than without the type annotation.
17:03 pmurias left
bioexpress Thx! 17:03
17:05 rickbike joined
bioexpress Where is the best place in the documentation to read about the /<$s>/? 17:06
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PerlJam bioexpress: I don't think there's much documentation about that particular construct. (though, there's not much to it other than what jnthn just said) 17:11
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bioexpress Ok, thx again. 17:12
PerlJam bioexpress: Maybe read S05 ... design.perl6.org/S05.html#Extensibl...%3C...%3E)
[Coke] docs.perl6.org/language/regexes is where it should be, but I don't see it yet.
yah, until we get our doc story straight, the synopses are a good place to double check.
PerlJam bioexpress: oops, you want the section on variable interpolation (which is just before the section I linked) 17:13
bioexpress I've found it. 17:15
Hotkeys m: say 42 ≥ 17 17:18
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/33_NSJUerL␤Confused␤at /tmp/33_NSJUerL:1␤------> 3say 427⏏5 ≥ 17␤ expecting any of:␤ infix␤ infix stopper␤ postfix␤ statement end␤ statement modif…»
Hotkeys darn
I was hoping
PerlJam Hotkeys: If we have unicode set ops, surely we should have the relational ops as well 17:19
Hotkeys I'd think so
hoelzro what's the policy for roast if something is spec'd in the design docs, but there's no test for that feature yet? should it go into 6.c or 6.d? (ex. $=data) 17:24
PerlJam 6.c.1 or 6.d 17:25
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hankache good evening #perl6 17:28
dalek osystem: c1d5872 | (Mathieu Gagnon)++ | META.list:
Remove perl6-tag-helper

Looks impossible to me to fix and pretty useless anyway.
PerlJam hankache: good morning! :) 17:29
hankache hi PerlJam :)
17:29 jdrab left
nemo Hotkeys: is there like some config for defining those associations? like >= ≥ ? 17:30
Hotkeys I mean
you could define it yourself 17:31
[Coke] hoelzro: "it depends". for now, put it in master
hoelzro *nod*
[Coke] we basically need to review stuff that's in master occasionally and consider cutting bits into a newer spec. 17:32
Hotkeys m: sub infix:<≥> ($a, $b) {$a >= $b}; say 42 ≥ 17
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«True␤»
Hotkeys m: sub infix:<≥> ($a, $b) {$a >= $b}; say 42 ≥ 100
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«False␤»
[Coke] (which right now is a branch, but based on talks elsewhere, may end up as subdirs in master.)
Hotkeys but it'd be nice to just have them
since we have other fancy unicode
sena_kun m: given 3 { when 2 or 3 {say "hooray"}}; 17:34
camelia ( no output )
sena_kun m: say given 3 { when 2 or 3 {say "hooray"}};
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/arEccVgYWT␤Unsupported use of bare "say"; in Perl 6 please use .say if you meant $_, or use an explicit invocant or argument, or use &say to refer to the function as a noun␤at /tmp/arEccVgYWT:1␤------> 3…»
sena_kun Uh. 17:35
RabidGravy m: given 3 { when 2|3 {say "hooray"}}
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«hooray␤»
sena_kun RabidGravy, you're great.
RabidGravy you want the junction their
there
[Coke] m: given 3 { when any(2,3) { say "y" }} 17:36
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«y␤»
[Coke] ... again, too slow. :)
sena_kun RabidGravy, yeah, just it.
RabidGravy :) but it's interesting with different versions
sena_kun RabidGravy, I'm targeting my cool and unique and pretty compress library only for christmas+ rakudo only, so it's okay, I think. 17:37
RabidGravy the infix '|' makes a any() junction, and infix '&' makes an all() 17:38
sena_kun, absolutely - unless there are bugs that you really do need fixing to work then that's that best plan
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Hotkeys so should 'use v6.c' be the way to go from now on 17:41
17:41 _Vi joined
llfourn would also like to know what 'use' to use 17:41
Hotkeys 6.c would make it so you require 2015.12 17:42
at least
maybe 'use v6.c+'
llfourn is that what we should put in module META? 17:43
TimToady that will use either maint or dev languages; if you want only maint versions, v6.*.0 should work for that
m: say v6.d.MUMBLE ~~ v6.*.0 17:44
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«False␤»
TimToady m: say v6.d ~~ v6.*.0 17:45
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«True␤»
llfourn why would you want to exclude maint or dev languages and what are they?
dalek osystem: 0ce1543 | leont++ | META.list:
Add Build::Graph and Build::Simple
osystem: d4a198c | (Will Coleda)++ | META.list:
Merge pull request #123 from Leont/master

Add Build::Graph and Build::Simple
pat_js m: say "outside: $_" for 4,(4|0),0 ==> map sub ($_) {return $_ if $_ != 0; say "in sub: $_";$_} 17:46
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«outside: 4␤in sub: 0␤outside: any(4, 0)␤in sub: 0␤outside: 0␤»
TimToady as we move toward 6.d we'll have two tracks, a 6.c.1+ track, and a 6.d.a+ track
[Coke] (two tracks). Please clarify this in the -release convo, also. :)
TimToady 6.c.1 will be minor tweaks for buggy or missing tests that don't really change the language (much)
pat_js is that intentional?
llfourn so .number => maint, .character => dev?
TimToady 6.d.a will be the first step towards whatever language we release as 6.d.0 17:47
llfourn okay cool
TimToady use v6.d.* will pick up any 6.d including previews
pat_js m: say "outside: $_" for (4|0) ==> map sub ($_) {return $_ if $_ != 0; say "in sub: $_";$_}
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«in sub: 0␤outside: any(4, 0)␤»
TimToady you can say: use v6.d.PREVIEW or anything uppercase too 17:48
since Z lt a
[Coke] m: use v6.d.BARFYKITTENS;
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/FuNa2VpuIX␤No compiler available for Perl v6.d.BARFYKITTENS␤at /tmp/FuNa2VpuIX:1␤------> 3use v6.d.BARFYKITTENS7⏏5;␤»
Hotkeys is there a difference between using .list or .List on a sequence?
they seem to do the same thing
pat_js is this a way to find out which of the junctions variables are true or is this a bug?
llfourn Hotkeys: probably not, the captialised version is there for type coercion I think 17:49
[Coke] list and List are not the same, no
17:49 _Vi left
pat_js returning from a sub, that is. 17:49
TimToady pat_js: generally that means you should be using a set instead of a junction 17:50
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[Coke] pat_js: I'm not sure using $_ as a anon sub parameter is a good idea. 17:50
flussence www.openssh.com/txt/release-7.1p2 # hooray, another thing to panic about
TimToady [Coke]: what's the matter with it? 17:51
llfourn uses $_ all the time as method/sub param
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llfourn well *all* the time is an overstatement 17:52
but it's handy sometimes
TimToady [Coke]: when I say "two tracks" I am not committing to any particular representation of those; that's what -release is there to figure out :)
llfourn though in the case above it should just be a block I guess, though I'm not sure if I understand what's going on
17:52 sftf left
TimToady I'm just repeating the API that's already been thrashed out for versions from the user point of view 17:53
llfourn though yeah it actually doesn't make much sense to use $_ as an *anon* sub param
pat_js I had read the documentation, but this also seems to work. I just want to know if it is intentional or if it should print "any (4, 0)" in both cases
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Hotkeys I like that type smileys are actually called that in code 17:56
llfourn m: (4|0).map: .say
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«(Any)␤Cannot call map(Int: Bool); none of these signatures match:␤ ($: Hash \h, *%_)␤ (\SELF: &block;; :$label, :$item, *%_)␤ (HyperIterable:D $: &block;; :$label, *%_)␤ in any at gen/moar/m-Metamodel.nqp line 3124␤ in block <unit> …»
TimToady what's going on there is it's autothreading the map
Hotkeys m: sub $foo (Int:d $bar) {}
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/kLEEyP7hlK␤Missing block␤at /tmp/kLEEyP7hlK:1␤------> 3sub7⏏5 $foo (Int:d $bar) {}␤ expecting any of:␤ new name to be defined␤»
llfourn m: (4|0).map: *.say
Hotkeys m: sub $foo (Int:d $bar) {say $bar;}
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«4␤0␤»
rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/8SJA7oL9RC␤Missing block␤at /tmp/8SJA7oL9RC:1␤------> 3sub7⏏5 $foo (Int:d $bar) {say $bar;}␤ expecting any of:␤ new name to be defined␤»
Hotkeys wow where's the err I was getting 17:57
TimToady so the inside of the map never sees the junctoin
Hotkeys that mentioned smileys
oh
m: sub foo (Int:d $bar) {say $bar;}
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/cP0_3BOtOh␤Invalid type smiley 'd' used in type name␤at /tmp/cP0_3BOtOh:1␤------> 3sub foo (Int:d7⏏5 $bar) {say $bar;}␤»
Hotkeys :D
17:57 abraxxa left
llfourn m: say (4|0).map: * + 1 17:57
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«any((5), (1))␤»
dalek href="https://perl6.org:">perl6.org: ad65336 | (Stefan Seifert)++ | / (3 files):
Revert "Revert "Give Zef some more prominence.""

Now that zef can install modules with native components correctly, it's really time for giving it more prominence!		 17:58
pat_js m: (sub ($_) {return $_ if $_ != 0; say "in sub: $_";$_})(4|0).say
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«in sub: 0␤any(4, 0)␤»
17:58 ramillies left
TimToady same thing 17:58
llfourn m: { $_ if $_ != 0; say "in sub: $_";$_ }.(4|0).say 18:00
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for /tmp/h5gBFC94CD:␤Useless use of $_ in sink context (line 1)␤in sub: any(4, 0)␤any(4, 0)␤»
TimToady and this actually points at why we can't just use junctions for sets, since the code that deals with a single value has no idea whether it's inside of any or all or one or none
llfourn m: { say "in sub: $_";$_ }.(4|0).say 18:01
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«in sub: any(4, 0)␤any(4, 0)␤»
pat_js m: my @a; (sub ($_) {return $_ if $_ != 0;@a.push($_); $_})(4|0); @a.say
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«[0]␤»
TimToady parameters to blocks defualt to Mu rather than Any 18:02
masak nine: you know that a revert of a revert is morally equal to a cherry-pick, right? :P
(hi, #perl6)
llfourn m: say -> { } 18:03
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«-> { #`(Block|61200592) ... }␤»
llfourn m: say -> $a { }
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«-> $a { #`(Block|59584368) ... }␤»
TimToady we thought autothreading your if/while/given/... blocks would be terribly confusing
llfourn m: say ({ }).params[0].gist
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«Method 'params' not found for invocant of class 'Hash'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/k8t9j1ssgt line 1␤␤»
TimToady m: say ({;}).params[0].gist 18:04
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«Method 'params' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/2MGiQZXsvJ line 1␤␤»
pat_js but is it okay to use this sort of strange return statement to find out only the right values?
nine masak: I actually think it's factually equal but morally different ;)
llfourn m: say ({;}).signature.params[0].gist 18:05
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«Mu $_? is raw␤»
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TimToady pat_js: it's probably a design smell that junctions are being used that way in the first place 18:06
ely-se Are static type checks still present? How predictable are they? 18:07
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ely-se IIRC months ago you couldn't tell beforehand whether the type checker would croak or not. 18:07
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masak nine: I would settle for factually *equivalent* but morally equal :) 18:07
ely-se m: sub f(Int $x) { }; f("blah".IO)
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding $x; expected Int but got IO::Path␤ in sub f at /tmp/lU27X0dyEg line 1␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/lU27X0dyEg line 1␤␤»
nine masak: I think I can't split that hair any further. I bow to the master :) 18:08
masak bows back, but splits into 69,104 small hairs
TimToady ely-se: at this point, we do not attempt to intuit that a .IO method returns an IO object 18:09
masak 69,105! ergh!
ely-se oh ok :P
m: sub f(Int $x) { }; f("ばか")
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/t22v2MJFYk␤Calling f(Str) will never work with declared signature (Int $x)␤at /tmp/t22v2MJFYk:1␤------> 3sub f(Int $x) { }; 7⏏5f("ばか")␤»
ely-se ah nice
TimToady we might add a bit more type inference as we go along, but the problem with type inferencers is that they tend to force the programmer to be as smart as the inferencer, and that tends to drop mere mortals into the ditch alongside the road 18:10
ely-se I'm fine as long as it is well-specified what the type checker accepts and what it rejects, instead of something unpredictable. 18:11
TimToady in general, we don't want to intuit methods anyway since they're late bound, but we do know at compile time that we will interpret .IO as a coercion, so that's a possible inference that wouldn't hurt much 18:12
well, the whole point of having a language that can evolve into the future is that it will be unpredictable what will be considered "adaptive" in 20 years 18:13
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ely-se Type checkers always reject some correct programs, and it'd be real bad if existing correct code will fail to compile in a future version because the compiler detects a type error. 18:13
masak ely-se: rejecting at compile time that which would fail at runtime anyway seems safe though 18:14
TimToady "will never work"
the only argument against that approach is that time bombs should be left undisturbed to explode later :) 18:15
ely-se masak: maybe the code will never be executed (e.g. guarded by if (False)), released into the public, used all over the place, and then the next version rejects it
TimToady and you're going to do a release without even compiling the code? :P
ely-se I mean Perl 6 implementation release
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masak TimToady: to be honest, I'd prefer if such a time bomb went off at compile time 18:16
ely-se example: gist.github.com/rightfold/07aa357ca1e721d10d89
TimToady well, they're not really time bombs; they're proximity bombs... 18:17
masak I don't care much about whether something is guarded by `if False`. wrong code is wrong code.
ely-se the point is that you have to be extremely conservative with fatal static analysis if you don't well-specify things and aim for backwards compatibility 18:18
masak ely-se: ...but if the code would have failed at runtime anyway...?
ely-se the code in question would not have failed at runtime.
masak then you're not accepting my premise
why then would type inference flag it as a type error? I don't understand 18:19
TimToady it's not all that either/or anyway, since there are intermediate approaches
Hotkeys TimToady: any plans on adding unicode ops like ≥ and ≤
ely-se In version 1 of Perl 6, the code works (passes compilation and works at runtime). In version 2 of Perl 6, the code would still work, except does not pass compilation.
Hotkeys since we have other fancy ones
TimToady deprecations, warnings, etc
Hotkeys like the set ops
llfourn masak: because it becomes wrong but it is done a path that is never reached at runtime I think it the point.
in a path*
18:20 jojotus left
llfourn this is pretty close to the least of my concerns :P 18:20
masak llfourn: I don't care if the path is reached or not. I'd like code that will never work to blow up at compile time if it can
ely-se TimToady: it is hard to find out when to emit such warnings when you don't know what the type checker will do (because it's not specified anywhere)
llfourn masak: me too I guess.
ely-se right now it seems to be completely random. 18:21
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TimToady no, it's somewhat specified 18:21
masak but either way, ely-se is against arguing a case (making previously working code fail at compile time) that I agree is worth being very careful with
ely-se oh, I couldn't find it
masak m: sub foo($x is rw) { $x = "OH HAI" }; my @a = foo(my $y), $y; say @a[1] # is this guaranteed to always output "OH HAI\n" because *mumble mumble* sequence points? 18:22
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
ely-se I'm gonna play with P6 again. Writing wiki software 18:24
masak \o/
ely-se I wanted to wait till GLR so now's the time :P 18:25
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TimToady the notion occurs in several spots, but is explicitly stated at S03:3242 "The compiler is allowed to complain about anything it knows cannot succeed at run time." 18:35
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ely-se ok 18:40
18:41 espadrine left
[Coke] our main problem there is "did we test for a certain way" 18:41
pat_js is the chain assoc for custom operators working?
TimToady not yet
on my todo list
18:41 kjs_ left
TimToady the simple fix didn't work :) 18:42
pat_js Ah okay, I thought I do something wrong.
TimToady the fundamental problem is that chain operators need to be parsed kind of like a list infix, but rakudo's EXPR actually parses them as left associative, so you don't really have all the information you'd like when you'd like it, so the code handling chained ops is too special-purpose and brittle to see the user-defined op correctly 18:43
*list-associative infix 18:44
pat_js ah, okay.
TimToady I did try once. :) 18:45
PerlJam masak: Even if that behavior is guaranteed, it gives me the heebie jeebies to see it used :) 18:46
masak PerlJam: I actually had a fairly cute use case for it, where it felt right and desirable :) 18:48
PerlJam: (it's a DSL for describing abstract board games)
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ely-se If I put scripts in bin/ should I also list them somewhere in META.info? 19:00
19:00 tadzik left
RabidGravy no, it will install the scripts from bin 19:00
ely-se ok! 19:01
RabidGravy I just found myself wanting multi method dispatch based on an attribute of the invocant, I probably need to step away from the keyboard 19:03
nine What could possibly go wrong? 19:04
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mspo fixed my grammar so that it works for p6doc URI|fmt.pl6 19:15
but it doesn't format actual pod at all :)
DrForr Just noticed that 'constant' doesn't appear to be searchable. 19:16
PerlJam probably because of the bias towards variable declarators 19:19
Skarsnik RabidGravy and other, feel free to add stuff in doc.perl6.org/language/modules-extra 19:20
DrForr Same for 'enum'. 19:21
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pat_js is this a viable solution for rosettacode.org/wiki/Amb ? : gist.github.com/P-Seebauer/c755eeb9170cc1ca7f6f 19:29
it needed attention. but this solution "abuses" junctions as a constraint solving engine.
and there is still no inherent amb operator 19:30
but Junctions sort of fill that role in perl6
jeek pat_js: any? 19:31
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pat_js no, it works 19:33
the problem is, that I'm using the (sub(){ return unless test; do-something})(|@junctions) to get around the fact that you shouldn't inspect Junctions 19:34
19:35 mempko joined 19:38 dfcarpenterak left, cdg left 19:39 spider-mario joined
RabidGravy is there a single thing that can split a list of objects into sub-lists based on an attribute of the object? 19:44
19:44 chewie_2082 left
leont classify? 19:45
jeek Did the eigenstates function make it into perl 6?
b2gills pat_js: I think the only way to get it to work the way it really wants to work is to use macros 19:46
pat_js is there a way to write a custom container? like scalar, but different. or even like a junction, but differen? 19:47
Skarsnik RabidGravy, what kind og weird stuff are you doing? xD 19:48
llfourn pat_js: do you mean with a different sigil?
RabidGravy Hmm classify, yeah I think that's the puppy, cheers leont++
pat_js no with other semantics
similar to tie in perl5
leont still wants a boolean classify
llfourn pat_js: check out: doc.perl6.org/type/Proxy 19:49
Skarsnik pat_js, maybe you want to play with Proxy?
RabidGravy Skarsnik, github.com/jonathanstowe/Tinky
Skarsnik Oh wow, have fun :) 19:50
RabidGravy It was nearly done-ish then I thought of a cute-ness while I was making the synopsis example 19:51
19:52 _Vi left
RabidGravy i.e. if transactions have the same name then it will make a method that selects based on the current state of the object 19:52
pat_js thanks, Skarsnik and llfourn, but I think I might need something closer to a Junction, now that I look at it. Junctions have this incredible feature of "eating" the operations and subs applied to it. 19:53
wollmers p6: sprintf("%b", -9);
camelia ( no output )
pat_js m: say (3|4) + 7
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«any(10, 11)␤»
pat_js that's amazing.
wollmers p6: sprintf("%x", -9); 19:54
camelia ( no output )
wollmers m: sprintf("%x", -9);
camelia ( no output )
wollmers m: say sprintf("%x", -9);
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«-9␤»
Skarsnik RabidGravy, you don't declare the states in the class?
b2gills m: sub amb ( &code, +@values ) { grep -> @_ { code |@_ }, [X] @values }; say amb ->\x,\y{ x * y == 8}, (1,2,3), (7,6,4,5);
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«((2 4))␤»
wollmers m: say sprintf("%b", -9);
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«-1001␤»
wollmers m: say sprintf("%b", 1 +< 63); 19:55
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000␤»
wollmers m: say sprintf("%b", 1 +< 64);
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000␤»
b2gills m: say sprintf("%b", 1 +< 128);
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000␤»
wollmers m: say sprintf("%b", +^0); 19:56
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«-1␤»
b2gills m: say sprintf("%b", 2**128 -1);
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111␤»
wollmers m: say sprintf("%b", -9);
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«-1001␤»
b2gills An Int is theoretically unbounded 19:57
wollmers m: say sprintf("%064b", +^0);
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000-1␤»
b2gills Int isn't 2's complement 19:58
wollmers When was it specced, that bits have a sign? That sprintf("%b", +^0) outputs -1? 19:59
TimToady Int is 2's complement, +^ isn't
a negative Int merely has an infinite number of 1 bits instead of 0 bits 20:00
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jeek m: my $firstword = ("the"|"that"|"a"); my $secondword = ("frog"|"elephant"|"thing"); my $thirdword = ("walked"|"treaded"|"grows"); my $fourthword = ("slowly"|"quickly"); my $sentence = $firstword ~ " " ~ $secondword ~ " " ~ $thirdword ~ " " ~ $fourthword; if $sentence == "that thing grows slowly" { say $sentence; } 20:01
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '3⏏5any(\"the\", \"that\", \"a\") any(\"frog\", \"elephant\", \"thing\") any(\"walked\", \"treaded\", \"grows\") any(\"slowly\", \"quickly\")' (indicated by ⏏)␤…»
jeek :(
TimToady (notionally; I'm sure libtommath stores a sign bit somewhere :)
colomon jeek: you want eq, not ==
jeek So I do. 20:02
pat_js m: my @a =(all «the that a»),(all «frog elephant thing»),(all «walked treaded grows»),(all «slowly quickly»);sub lf (Str $l, Str $r) {$l.ends-with($r.substr(0,1))};(sub ($w1, $w2, $w3, $w4){return unless [and] lf($w1, $w2), lf($w2, $w3),lf($w3, $w4);say "$w1 $w2 $w3 $w4"})(|@a);
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«that thing grows slowly␤»
20:02 pdcawley joined 20:04 firstdayonthejob joined 20:05 darutoko left, mempko left 20:07 rickbike joined
dalek ar: 22c44f3 | hankache++ | docs/perl6intro.pdf:
update perl6intro.pdf
 20:09
ar: c6f059b | (Steve Mynott)++ | docs/perl6intro.pdf:
Merge pull request #63 from hankache/master

update perl6intro.pdf
pat_js ah, okay. 20:12
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dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 137 commits to rakudo/2016.01-preparation by niner 20:27
Skarsnik wow
20:29 alpha123 left
nine It's a branch based on 2015.12 with cherry-picked commits that don't break backwards compatibility but a lot of fixes and performance improvements and cleanup 20:29
20:30 domidumont left
ely-se the error message you get when you mistake is for does is quite cryptic 20:30
m: role A { }; class C is A { }
camelia ( no output )
ely-se m: role A { method f() { ... } }; class C is A { }
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/mq_CmFBQm9␤Method 'f' must be implemented by A because it is required by a role␤at /tmp/mq_CmFBQm9:1␤»
Skarsnik ? 20:31
it's clear
RabidGravy Skarsnik, it's dynamic innit ;-) but I could see some "workflow Foo { state Open { } ; state Close {} .. transition OpenClose { has State $.from = Open.new; .... } }"
20:31 kjs_ left
[Coke] nine: thank you for taking the lead on that! 20:34
stmuk_ nine++ # stable branch 20:35
TimToady
.oO(less unstable)
 20:36
nine++ # courage :)
nine I really just want to get it over with :) 20:38
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pmurias masak: I can imagine situations where we should abort the program because of code that's invalid but never executed 20:42
* shouldn't
20:42 riatre left 20:43 roguelazer left
pmurias my $foo = Foo.new; if $foo !~ Foo {do-something-that-invalid-on-Foo($foo)} 20:43
20:43 riatre joined, roguelazer joined
Skarsnik there is no routine/method type checking (it's kind of annoyingx) 20:44
pmurias ely-se: it's possible to make a type-checker that only rejects invalid programs
Skarsnik I mean before running 20:45
ely-se pmurias: yes, but assuming Turing-completeness, not all invalid programs, and it's also difficult to make it useful if it only rejects invalid programs
because it can reject only very few programs 20:46
pmurias I think dialyzer for Erlang is an example of rejecting only invalid programs
ely-se if it rejects a program because a dead part of it is ill-typed, it rejects a valid program
20:46 molaf left
ely-se and it has to, because of the halting problem 20:47
20:47 _Vi joined
pmurias it's a tradeoff between only accepting some valid ones and rejecting all invalid ones or rejecting some invalid ones and accepting all valid ones 20:48
ely-se: dialyzer assumes that dead code is bad and should be detected
jnthn Skarsnik: The big point of OO is late binding (or at least, was meant to be). :) If you want early binding and more static checking, consider a more functional design rather than an OO one.
ely-se pmurias: so it rejects some valid programs! 20:49
pmurias not sure if it rejects or just warns ;)
20:49 rurban joined
hahainternet hey rurban 20:50
saw your post on HN yesterday but didn't want to fight :D
pmurias pmurias: re only very few programs in my experience loads of type error bugs in dynamic languages are simple ones
Skarsnik jnthn, Perl 6 is still loosy on sub that are not method for type checking. and I am pretty sure in lot of case you want so 20:51
erf
dalek c: 16af427 | (Steve Mynott)++ | bin/p6doc:
Remove use of |fmt since this breaks code samples like

   chomp($string);
   $string.chomp;
by putting them on one line when p6doc is used.
In any case we should be extending code in Pod::To::Text to format pod (and there is a text wrap sub there).
Skarsnik I would not mind something to let Perl 6 tell me that I am passing the wrong type to a method at compile time
jnthn Skarsnik: I'm sure somebody will do that in a module. :) But in terms of what we do by default, it'll mostly be about more static checking of lexically scoped things. 20:53
mspo isn't that the point of types?
a point
jnthn There's many points :) 20:54
pmurias ely-se: in regards to stuff breaking due to newly discovered crap dead code, just not aborting legacy production code solves that issue
ely-se What do you mean by that?
It may be legacy code in an old library that you have to use.
jnthn I don't know why people are getting so worked up over the "more compile time checking in later language versions" thing. It's all rather easily solved by having the "use v6.d" or whatever switch on spitting out errors on more things. 20:55
PerlJam People like to get worked up.
jnthn Then code that declared its language version will keep on working.
PerlJam especially about things they understand poorly ;)
Skarsnik I would like a pragma x) 20:56
jnthn PerlJam: Tell me about it. Thankfully I decided not to backlog here any more, so I can see less of it. :P
TimToady it will also be our fault that they forgot to declare the version :)
jnthn Of course. :)
TimToady and used a repo that doesn't enforce versions...
ely-se Everything is your fault!
PerlJam
.oO( "Perl 6 sucks! I always have to declare which version of the language I'm using!" )
 20:57
TimToady well, not everything
20:57 jack_rabbit left
ely-se I like version numbers at the top of files. 20:57
TimToady if I ever get to thinking everything is my fault, it's time to shoot me
ely-se I didn't know you got more granularity than just "Perl 6".
Skarsnik I don't like them
ely-se XML is my favourite language because of <?xml version="1.0" ?>
hahainternet one thing i think is a smart idea fwiw 20:58
TimToady XML is not my fault!
hahainternet is date specifism
PerlJam heh
hahainternet ie, perl5 allows me to use Modern::Perl '2015';
ely-se TimToady: if XML didn't allow specifying version numbers then XML-related incompatibilities would be your fault.
hahainternet i like the fact that it's done by date, it feels a bit more accessible
b2gills TimToady: but TAP is your fault
TimToady well, "ok 1" is my fault 20:59
PerlJam hahainternet: but doesn't make enough sense (IMHO) for *language* versioning.
hahainternet PerlJam: i'm ambivalent on that
PerlJam hahainternet: For compiler versions, I can see it being used, but not for languages.
hahainternet i just wanted to raise the issue
TimToady TAP is only partly my fault, for writing a TEST script to analyze "ok 1"
pmurias hahainternet: until you find code that's written 20 years ago
hahainternet pmurias: hey as long as it says '1995' on it (jesus christ that was 20 years ago!)
RabidGravy tum ti tum
Skarsnik C standard name are a date!
ely-se jnthn: is any d for use v6.d; already supported? 21:00
v6.0 is croaked upon
Skarsnik I thing the real issue is what is the default?
If I put nothing it assume what?
ely-se it assumes PHP by default
21:00 yqt left
PerlJam Skarsnik: the highest standard the compiler understands 21:01
jnthn Skarsnik: If you put nothing it assumes latest.
Well, latest standard, yes.
TimToady that'd be v6.*.0
Skarsnik That I will never put the version probably xD
TimToady v6.*.0+ rather
then you can't test against any dev versions 21:02
RabidGravy Well it should be the version you tested with
PerlJam Skarsnik: that will probably only bite you when we deprecate things.
pmurias
.oO(use php:from<1995>)
TimToady well, there may be subtle differences that don't fall into the category of deprecations 21:03
the whole point of going from 6.c to 6.d someday is to mutate the language
PerlJam that's why I said "probably" :)
[Coke] TimToady: a doc page on how spec versions work would be a good thing.
someone enterprising could scrape the logs for timtoady today and write it up! 21:04
TimToady you (or someone like you) should mostly likely probably kinda sorta said (or indicate) something more along the lines of "probably"
PerlJam [Coke]: heh ... I was thinking you should do exactly that! :)
[Coke] You can't spell timtoady with mit out today!
ely-se oh, it's actually literally "v6.d"
on my machine it says v6.c
what do those letters mean?
[Coke] yes. there has only ever been v6.c so far.
version 6 - christmas 21:05
ely-se oh ok :)
I'll use that then.
TimToady instead of using years or numbers, we decided we like letters for language standards
especially since they can be associated with names like 'christmas', 'diwali', etc 21:06
jnthn I can also try and draft something up on versioning in the coming days.
TimToady which cuts a bit of the marketing headwind
ely-se v6.e for elyse
TimToady are you a religious festival?
DrForr multi++ # though I'm probably borderline abusing it.
hahainternet TimToady: i think you could argue .f for 'Friday' would count as that ;) 21:07
and it makes the release window for that version very easy too :D
TimToady hah
ely-se what if you went all the way to Z?
PerlJam ely-se: we will.
TimToady we've already said we no longer have to hit the day in question
Christmas was a fluke
pure coincidence :)
PerlJam ely-se: Are you asking what comes after 6.z ?
ely-se yes
TimToady well, there's always 6.zz 21:08
Skarsnik the end of the world probably
ely-se Perl 7
PerlJam m: my $s = "z"; $s++; say $s;
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«aa␤»
TimToady m: say v6.z cmp v6.0
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«Less␤»
PerlJam :-)
TimToady there's always 6.0
21:08 Ven joined
PerlJam that would really confuse people 21:08
skids Restart the alphabet with umlauts
21:08 rindolf left
ely-se Having fun with Perl 6 already. 21:09
geekosaur m: say so 'z < '{'
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/S7QeOVXnTD␤Unable to parse expression in single quotes; couldn't find final "'" ␤at /tmp/S7QeOVXnTD:1␤------> 3say so 'z < '{'7⏏5<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ list composer␤ singl…»
TimToady given some of us hope to be dead by the time we reach .z, it's someone else's problem :)
ugexe m: say "z".succ
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«aa␤»
geekosaur woo[s
ely-se gist.github.com/rightfold/c250865ca780d62d2596
geekosaur sighs. typing not working so hot today
m: say so 'z' < '{'
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '3⏏5z' (indicated by ⏏)␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/8BLa9qTm5P line 1␤␤Actually thrown at:␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/8BLa9qTm5P line 1␤␤»
geekosaur derr
m: say so 'z' lt '{'
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«True␤»
TimToady If we do switch to 6.0 someday, I hope to be dead before we hit v6.6.6...
21:09 kaare_ left
ely-se and reincarnate on the day of lucky v7.7.7 21:10
stmuk_ . o O ( are there any religious festivals starting with F? )
hahainternet Friday!
followed by more people than any other religion
prayed for by more people than any saint
TimToady m: say v6.z cmp v6.ä 21:11
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«Less␤»
hahainternet celebrated more than any festival you can name :D
TimToady I guess that works
PerlJam
.oO( I thought Friday was followed by Saturday )
TimToady not sure how many religious holidays start with umlauts though...
hahainternet where's the rimshot bot ;)
ely-se stmuk_: Feast of the Sacred Heart
stmuk_ floralia
mspo festivus 21:12
ugexe festivus has no ties to religion
TimToady fiesta, if we wanna get the hispanics to feel included
doesn't really have to be religious
jnthn PerlJam: That moment when you're not sure if pun or Rebecca Black reference... :)
PerlJam heh
TimToady I don't think my birthday is particularly religious...yet...
nine Why is ä after z?
DrForr Bummer, 'is rw' only works on scalars. 21:13
TimToady maybe you want 'is raw'
DrForr Ah, that works but I'm not sure where I'd dig up docs on that. 21:14
TimToady nine: because we decided versions go in unicodical order
jnthn rest & 21:15
ely-se just continue with the next code point after z
TimToady wants to be alpha to be considered before .0
and we do have to parse the silly things
ely-se so at one point you'll end up with v6.🕴
TimToady as it is, we disallow a method call after a version number
ely-se fonts that lack 🕴 suck 21:16
masak m: say (v1.0).Str
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«1.0␤»
TimToady m: say v6.c.1.Str
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«v6.c.1.Str␤»
ely-se m: say (v1.🕴).Str
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /tmp/WPMhquVWnR␤Malformed postfix call␤at /tmp/WPMhquVWnR:1␤------> 3say (v1.7⏏5🕴).Str␤»
mspo so is there interest in me trying to patch the line wrapper stuff into p6doc and removing the | fmt -m 80, or should that logic get built into a Pod:: module
TimToady what happens if you want ) for a version character? 21:17
stmuk_ mspo: I just removed the |fmt since it broke other things
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mspo stmuk_: oh cool 21:17
TimToady |fmt is just wrong for non-flowed text
mspo TimToady: I made a grammar to chop lines that works a little better
ely-se TimToady: escape it with a backslash
stmuk_ mspo: I think line wrapping logic should be in "Pod::To::Text" 21:18
TimToady okay, what if you want a backslash in your version?
ely-se escape it with a backslash
[Coke] (religious) I would be grateful it it were just "holidays".
21:18 zakharyas left
_nadim What's the rule for which symboles string EVAL can an can not see? I had a script with a sub that does string EVAL, no problems seing scoped symbols. in tests it doesn't work and when I move the sub to it's own package, the symboles are not seen either. 21:19
TimToady really, it's anything that is a named celebration
that isn't too non-family-friendly, I should add :)
skids What, no Ron Jeremey Day?
ely-se programmer's day
stmuk_ holiday is holyday! 21:20
TimToady _nadim: EVAL only sees things in its outer lexical scope
which means (or is supposed to mean) the spot where the EVAL is called
RabidGravy so, when we get to Yule we're ready to start again
[Coke] note that EVAL has a magical undocumented parameter. 21:21
_nadim please do tell
stmuk_ X-Day (Church of the SubGenius)
TimToady EVAL is specially recognized by the compiler, one of the reasons it's uppercased
pat_js where can I find documentation about the CALL-ME documentation? 21:22
TimToady we are specifically NOT restricting it to one culture's religious holidays
stmuk_ Integrity Day --
A day of contemplation of Hubbard's 1965 study on Scientology Ethics.
maybe not 21:23
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Hotkeys Are we going to get 6.pi-day 21:24
Or will that wait til 6.π 21:25
_nadim TimToady: outer scope is the compilation unit then, right? this works for example nopaste.linux-dev.org/?931825
TimToady m: say v6.π cmp v6.τ
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«Less␤»
Hotkeys Of course we can have tau day too 21:26
m: say v6.π cmp v6.c
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«More␤»
Hotkeys Good we haven't missed it
TimToady _nadim: yes, that should work 21:27
ely-se Is it already possible to "use M <&f>;" to import just the f sub from M? 21:28
the compiler says no EXPORT sub is defined
21:28 roguelazer left
dalek kudo/2016.01-preparation: 1cb4034 | coke++ | docs/announce/2016.01.md:
Placeholder release announcement
 21:29
21:29 rodarmor left
TimToady m: say v6.c cmp v6.𒁖 21:29
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«Less␤»
21:29 riatre left
TimToady .u 𒁖 21:29
yoleaux U+12056 CUNEIFORM SIGN DAG [Lo] (𒁖)
TimToady and I think it is one! 21:30
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wollmers Int has unlimited bits. Thus my bitvector LCS::BV has half the code now, is the shortest and fastest (written in P6;-). And O(n). A::Diff crashed in second benchmark. 21:33
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friedo_ hi folks 21:43
what am I doing wrong with named positional parameters here? pastebin.com/xxmeP8gj
timotimo friedo_: you have declared the sub takes 3 positional arguments and 0 named arguments 21:44
if you want it to take named arguments, you'll haev to put a : in front of the $
if you want the sub to work with positionals as well as nameds, you'll have to build two candidates and make the sub into a multi sub
friedo_ what I've read elsewhere seems to imply that the :name(val) form works for both positional and named params though :/ 21:45
e.g. this post, unless it's obsolete? perl6advent.wordpress.com/2009/12/...arameters/ 21:46
dalek kudo-star-daily: 9bf888c | coke++ | log/ (6 files):
today (automated commit)
 21:51
TimToady it's only about 6 years out of date... :) 21:52
we decided trying to support that would lead to insanity 21:53
for some definition of "we", and "insanity"
21:53 ELBeavers joined
friedo_ @TimToady thanks for the clarification 21:54
[Coke] dd 21:59
nine I'm off to bed now. Good night all! 22:00
22:00 lokien_ joined
PerlJam nine: sleep well! 22:01
22:05 skids left
timotimo nite nine 22:05
22:06 friedo_ left
mspo finding all of the Pod moduls is fun :) 22:07
ely-se v6.i.imgur.com/XWOuu8G.gif 22:15
timotimo wow, i've only ever seen a very, very short version of that gif before 22:16
22:17 kjs_ joined
ely-se I feel sorry for you. 22:17
It's the most awesome gif of all time.
sjn v6.🎆
flussence
.oO( a codepoint is worth a thousand frames )
 22:18
ely-se m: say v6 * 1i 22:19
camelia rakudo-moar 3259ba: OUTPUT«Cannot call Numeric(Version: ); none of these signatures match:␤ (Mu:U \v: *%_)␤ in block <unit> at /tmp/5sgFteWnia line 1␤␤»
ely-se no imaginary versions
sjn heh 22:20
.u 🎆
yoleaux U+1F386 FIREWORKS [So] (🎆)
sjn needs a font that shows that grapheme
22:21 M___ joined
dalek c: a41aee8 | (Steve Mynott)++ | bin/p6doc:
Look under Language and Type so that 'p6doc Str' and 'p6doc faq' now
 22:21
flussence wonders why fontconfig has half a dozen commands that do almost identical things, and none of them are "show me which fonts have this character in them" 22:24
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ely-se Well, time to sleep. Bye! 22:30
flussence: because incompetence
22:30 ely-se left
mspo timotimo: www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CS7j5I6aOc for the sound 22:36
and www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFTaiWInZ44
22:38 andrewalker left 22:41 Ven left 22:43 andrewalker joined 22:45 muraiki left
zengargoyle hrm... is there now no easy way to use rakudobrew and share a Perl 6 install with multiple users? 22:46
it's doing odd things, like panda shows installed modules to one user but not another. 22:47
22:50 Praise left, Praise joined 22:51 bjz joined 22:52 rurban left
tadzik ugh 22:53
rakudobrew is not meant to be used as a system-wide installation
please don't go there, it's a very bad idea :)
b2gills It should probably fail with that message if ran as root 22:55
dalek c: 47fcaf0 | (Steve Mynott)++ | bin/p6doc:
'p6doc -l' now lists some documents
tadzik that's not a bad idea 22:56
timotimo utf8everywhere.org/ - haven't read it yet, but might be interesting? 22:58
zengargoyle tadzik: why? what's wrong with /opt/rakudobrew being rwxrwsr-x user:group and having user in group?
23:00 TEttinger joined
zengargoyle directories/files are rwx for everybody in group. stuff should install and work that way (it did at one point...) 23:00
23:00 lichtkind left
tadzik should. We already had someone here who did some mumbo-jumbo with a system-wide rakudo and ended up with his /usr/bin wiped 23:01
I don't doubt that it can be done correctly, but I want no part of that, I won't advertise it and in any case I won't support such usage
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tadzik s/rakudo/rakudobrew/ 23:01
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zengargoyle fwiw, seem more like a rakudo/panda issue than rakudobrew... 23:02
tadzik nah 23:03
dalek c: 4839d10 | (Steve Mynott)++ | bin/p6doc:
file is already an .IO
tadzik well, the erratic behaviour in question came up because of either putting rakudobrew in /usr/bin or symlinking rakudobrew's bin there, or something
rakudobrew treats its bin like its own thing, temporary by all means, and will not hesitate to wipe it 23:04
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tadzik it was without a doubt the user's fault 23:04
but still :)
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tadzik it wasn't developed with multiuser-usage in mind, it wasn't tested for it... it might Just Work, but I won't claim responsibility for any of this 23:05
stmuk_ it's like rakudobrew has become a monster independent of its creator and the standard way of installing perl6 :)
zengargoyle ah, not a problem here. i started with /opt/rakudobrew and just changed permissions to be a group thing. but for some reason panda works for owner but not group.
tadzik (not that I will in other cases :P)
zengargoyle like i can still *use* installed modules, but panda list doesn't show them. 23:07
tadzik hm, peculiar 23:09
well, if panda is unable to write to the rakudo's site/, it falls back to ~/.perl6/site
that could explain it 23:10
it also picks up the first location that works, ignoring others
zengargoyle that's probably broken. i'm sure i can write to /opt/rakudobrew yet still end up with stuff in .perl6
i've gone as far as chown/chmod -R the whole thing just to be sure, remove .perl6 and it shows up again. which is patently silly. 23:11
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zengargoyle if i chown -R to another user, that user works. so looks like somewhere it's checking acutal owner permissions vs group/actual permissions. 23:14
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tadzik interesting 23:26
all panda does (that I know of) is checking the writability of file/directory
zengargoyle might try a start-from-scratch and test thing this weekend or something. since something like «perl6 -e 'use LibraryCheck; say "woot";'» works no matter which user owns install, but «panda --installed list» only works for actual owner... it might only be in the part that tries to enumerate available modules vs the part that tries to load a specific module. so it seems so far. 23:30
not sure if panda is using a compunitrepo to get the list of installed or relying on it's own list somewhere. 23:31
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tadzik no, it has its own list 23:33
to keep track of what was installed as a dependency and what was not
zengargoyle seems like that should be in compunit or something so other package managers have the same info. 23:34
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tadzik that'd be nice 23:34
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RabidGravy coo a 103 line synopsis, I'd skip the rest of the documentation if that was half of it 23:41
jabus how to connect to MS sql server using perl6? looks like DBIish is for sqlite, postgres and mysql only? 23:42
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RabidGravy right now, I'd guess that you can't TBH, though I'm sure you could bind to an ODBC library 23:44
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RabidGravy there is an Oracle driver in hand for DBIish and I guess someone could make a FreeTDS driver or whatever the new fashion is 23:46
jabus huh. I don't know a good way to bind to an ODBC lib (or really any bind to anything.)
RabidGravy well it's look at the DBIish code and doc.perl6.org/language/nativecall and then hack something together with your favourite ODBC library :) 23:48
lots of code but probably not horribly difficult 23:49
I'm sure someone will be sufficiently motivated at some point to make this 23:52
after all no-one's made an email sending library yet 23:53
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jabus ok thx RbdGrvy. 23:57
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RabidGravy right time to crash, toodles peeps 23:58

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