»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz on 22 December 2015.
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timotimo --debug is no problem, it just puts debug symbols in with the binary 00:04
they shouldn't impact performance
if you don't have --optimize=3, though, that'd make performance a bit weaker
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MasterDuke just rebuilt moar, nqp, and rakudo without --debug, no change 00:05
timotimo nqp and rakudo don't have --debug 00:06
MasterDuke yeah, but i couldn't remember if there were some commits i'd pulled but hadn't built yet
i don't think i've ever seen type_check in a profile before, much less at the top 00:07
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timotimo right 00:08
can you spot it in the call graph?
MasterDuke i'm using the qt version, let me generate some html 00:09
Callers: <anon> <unit-outer> <unit> <anon> 00:11
timotimo hm. weird. 00:12
anyway, i'll be going to bed, i think
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MasterDuke actually, it seems to be in the postcircumfix:<[ ]> 00:13
timotimo weird 00:14
MasterDuke both the AT-POS and the ASSIGN-POS
profile is 49% specialized frames, 47% JIT-compiled 00:16
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seatek So, with panda-installed modules being named with crazy UUID-looking filenames... if I manage to find one, and fix a problem in someone's module.... how do get that module to update or recompile, or whatever needs to happen? 02:08
I've got to add a column data type to the DBDish Pg thang 02:09
otherwise it's nagging all the time about having no type map for a column 02:10
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seatek this is a very, weirdly different feeling 02:11
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seatek i looks like some kind of "precompiling" stuff goes on in the modules? So if you change the module source, I assume you have to kick off that precompiling again, whatever that is 02:26
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llfourn seatek: that's correct 02:29
if you wanan fix a problem with the module you should clone it from github and perl6 -Ipath/to/lib 02:30
seatek is there a quick and dirty way to take a UIID-like source file you edited, and get it to "precompile", so that it will be used henceforth?
llfourn maybe but it's such a bad idea I wouldn't tell you if I knew :P 02:31
seatek lots of trouble with a biggie like DBIish
llfourn why?
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llfourn (I've honestly never used it) 02:32
in any case you should just be able to -I its lib and it will use it instead of the panda installed one 02:33
it will still use the panda installed depends etc
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seatek good lord that was a pain. I understand the precompiling now. That was incredibly, incredibly slow to run after using the non-precompiled. 02:48
llfourn: thanks for goading me into doing what I didn't want to HAVE to do. ;)
llfourn seatek: anytime :P
seatek llfourn++
llfourn I hope you can fix the bug :)
seatek already done 02:49
it's just a column type that was generating a warning all the time because oid wasn't known
llfourn seatek++ # I'm sure they'd love a PR if you haven't already
seatek i'm still irritated i couldn't edit source locally. if i get over it, I will. ;) 02:50
this makes it easier having the git stuff here though already 02:51
so really the pain is good
llfourn yes. You'll need to fork DBIish on github to make the PR :) 02:53
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seatek forget it then ;) 02:54
llfourn goads seatek some more
seatek i don't think anbody but me ever uses the "money" type column in postgres anyway 02:56
and maybe i should stop since Perl6 is supposedly immune to rounding errors now
I don't know what to believe any more. ;) 02:57
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BenGoldberg seatek, Perl6 isn't immune to rounding errors in Num, as that uses the underlying C 'double' type. However, decimal literals such as 123.45 are not turned into Nums, they're turned into Rats (rationals), and don't get rounded. 03:03
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seatek BenGoldberg, that sounds like what I should be using 03:05
Ugh. I don't even have a GitHub account. I've managed to avoid it for years. 03:06
Making one now just to create a ticket with this silly little diff instead of forking the whole thing
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Xliff \o #perl6 03:11
I've written a STORE method for CArray, but it doesn't seem to be getting called, rather I am getting a type mismatch error. What else do I need to do to get my code to run? 03:12
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dalek Iish: 0ce19e2 | (Salvador Ortiz)++ | lib/DBDish/Pg/Native.pm6:
Pg: Add simple Str support for PG type 790 (money)

adaptiveoptics++ for the patch Closes #71		 03:42
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seatek Oh wow that DBIish patch went in quick. Salvador is speedy! 04:06
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ufobat morning :) 06:06
[ptc] o/ 06:09
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sortiz \o #perl6 06:20
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lizmat clickbaits p6weekly.wordpress.com/2016/10/03/...toberfest/ 07:16
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[ptc] lizmat++ 07:49
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jnx Hello everyone! 08:21
I'd like to ask if there's a good beginners book for Perl 6 08:22
or if it's better to start with a beginners Perl 5 book 08:23
If anyone could help
thanks a lot
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[ptc] jnx: I don't think there are any books as yet. There's one in the works (www.reddit.com/r/perl/comments/557...6_books/), but it's not published yet 08:28
jnx: the docs page (docs.perl6.org/) has a tutorial section; there's also perl6intro.com/ which might be helpful 08:29
jnx I've heard abour Perl 6 Now, Perl 6 Essentials... but they seem dated
maybe I'm worng
[ptc] jnx: word has it that "Perl 6 Programming" is also in the works, but I don't know how far along that is 08:30
Perl 6 Essentials is very out of date
there's also learnxinyminutes.com/docs/perl6/, which can get you up and going quickly
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lizmat jnx: please note that perl6intro.com comes in many languages 08:33
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lizmat alas, no chinese (yet) 08:34
jnx Thanks ptc, lizmat 08:35
Maybe it's too soon and the language it's evolving 08:36
so it has to be complicated 08:37
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lizmat jnx: the stuff that the introduction is covering, is not evolving anymore 08:37
afk& 08:39
jnx ok 08:45
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fudje Hihi. Anyone still awake? 10:13
awake yet?
gfldex shhh, we are thinking 10:14
fudje So I've been trying to work out if it's possible to create a multi routine in a namespace, that can have candidates added from outside the class/role/module/package etc. 10:15
so far the answer seems to be no.
Can anyone correct me on that?
gfldex m: use MONKEY-TYPING; package P { class C {} }; augment class P::C { method m { 'oi‽' } }; say P::C.new.m 10:17
camelia rakudo-moar 01321c: OUTPUT«oi‽␤»
gfldex please note that this will kill precomp
fudje Essentially I thought it'd be cool to be able to do like module MyMod { proto decode(Str $mime, Blob $data) { * } } #`(some other file with speculative pseudocode :) multi MyMod::decode('application/json', Blob $data) { ... } 10:18
gfldex m: use MONKEY-TYPING; package P { class C { multi m(Str){ 'Str' } } }; augment class P::C { multi method m(Int) { 'oi‽' } }; say P::C.new.m('foo') 10:19
camelia rakudo-moar 01321c: OUTPUT«Cannot resolve caller m(P::C: Str); none of these signatures match:␤ (P::C $: Int, *%_)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
gfldex bug
m: use MONKEY-TYPING; class C { multi m(Str){ 'Str' } }; augment class C { multi method m(Int) { 'oi‽' } }; say C.new.m('foo') 10:20
camelia rakudo-moar 01321c: OUTPUT«Cannot resolve caller m(C: Str); none of these signatures match:␤ (C $: Int, *%_)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
jkramer When using a module with 'use-ok' in a test, it seems that subs are not exported into the tests scope. Am I doing something wrong or is this correct?
gfldex m: use MONKEY-TYPING; class C { multi method m(Str){ 'Str' } }; augment class C { multi method m(Int) { 'oi‽' } }; say C.new.m('foo')
camelia rakudo-moar 01321c: OUTPUT«Str␤»
gfldex nobug :)
RabidGravy Hmm, you can do it with a role IIRC
gfldex m: use MONKEY-TYPING; package P { class C { multi method m(Str){ 'Str' } } }; augment class P::C { multi method m(Int) { 'oi‽' } }; say C.new.m('foo') 10:21
camelia rakudo-moar 01321c: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared name:␤ C used at line 1␤␤»
gfldex m: use MONKEY-TYPING; package P { class C { multi method m(Str){ 'Str' } } }; augment class P::C { multi method m(Int) { 'oi‽' } }; say P::C.new.m('foo')
camelia rakudo-moar 01321c: OUTPUT«Str␤»
gfldex fudje: if you want to subclass, why not subclass? 10:22
fudje gfldex: because I *want* to abuse multidispatch in my nefarious plot ;) 10:23
gfldex you can but you wont have precomp and that hurts a lot
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fudje jkramer: don't think use-ok will install symbols into the calling scope - if that's what you're trying to do? 10:35
timotimo fudje: you do know you don't have to monkey-type to abuse multi-dispatch? 10:36
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fudje timotimo ??? 10:37
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timotimo when you subclass or mixin roles, candidates get thrown together into the same pot 10:39
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fudje Hmm, I see.... 10:47
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jkramer fudje: Yeah, that's what I want. I mean I want to test if it can be used and then of course I want to test the exported subs as well 10:57
Should I put a normal use after it?
fudje jkramer: That's what's done in github.com/perl6/perl6-examples/bl...-example.t 10:58
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jkramer fudje: Ok, thanks 11:00
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jkramer Seems a bit pointless to me though. The normal use is done at compile-time, right? So it'll crash before the use-ok will be executed 11:02
gfldex EVAL <-- trick
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fudje m: class Foo { our &Bar = (Callable but { proto method CALL-ME(Str) { * } }).new }; &Foo::Bar does role { multi method CALL-ME('bar') { 'baz' } }; Foo::Bar('bar') 11:05
camelia ( no output )
fudje m: class Foo { our &Bar = (Callable but { proto method CALL-ME(Str) { * } }).new }; &Foo::Bar does role { multi method CALL-ME('bar') { 'baz' } }; Foo::Bar('bar').say
camelia rakudo-moar 01321c: OUTPUT«baz␤»
fudje :D
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fudje hmm the proto becomes useless in that case though. 11:09
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dalek c: 77acc0f | gfldex++ | / (2 files):
allow insertion of default exception handler for example execution tests
 11:34
c: d11caf6 | gfldex++ | doc/Language/functions.pod6:
make examples compile
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moritz re perl6-users thread about a doc bug, I've sent the OP a commit bit :-) 11:59
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gfldex moritz: can you provide a link to that thread please? 12:00
moritz gfldex: I can't, www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/ isn't up-to-date enough, it seems 12:01
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dalek c: 74dbf1c | gfldex++ | doc/Type/ (2 files):
link to subscripts
 12:39
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dalek c: c2ecacb | gfldex++ | doc/Language/subscripts.pod6:
show * in multidim subscripts
 12:57
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gfldex where does projects.json reside? 13:13
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gfldex found it 13:31
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tatata Hello all, is there an object like Channel that may fail on send, what I mean: is there an object like Channel where send is a Promise? A bit like Socket::Async but without the Socket implemented 14:25
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hackedNODE Nope. 14:28
moritz tatata: I think Channel can fail on send, when it's closed
hackedNODE You could setup two channels, and use the second one to signal to the first that the reception failed.
tatata moritz : I see it raises an exception
hackedNODE tatata: what do you need this for? 14:29
tatata wouldn't a Dumbo::Async class be very usefull?
moritz tatata: or you can create a Promise yourself, and put that into a Channel
hackedNODE That name is awful :)
tatata I'm trying to understand the logic behind the async and the reactive api 14:30
(without finding one)
but prob I'm just illiterate
hackedNODE mmkay
moritz tatata: have you read docs.perl6.org/language/concurrency.html
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moritz tatata: also design.perl6.org/S17.html might be of interested 14:31
tatata moritz yep it seems all very high level, to the point of being a nightmare
why for instance Proc::Async is there? 14:32
moritz tatata: well, we have API docs for the individual classes too
that's a high-level question. Didn't you just complain that the docs were too high-level? :-)
tatata I wouldn't like to complain 14:33
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tony-o m: (65000 / 12) * .6 14:43
camelia rakudo-moar b12297: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for <tmp>:␤Useless use of "*" in expression "(65000 / 12) * .6" in sink context (line 1)␤»
tony-o m: say (65000 / 12) * .6
camelia rakudo-moar b12297: OUTPUT«3250␤»
tony-o m: say (185000 / 12) * .6 14:44
camelia rakudo-moar b12297: OUTPUT«9250␤»
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Xliff \o #perl6 15:27
I've written a STORE method for CArray, but it doesn't seem to be getting called, rather I am getting a type mismatch error. What else do I need to do to get my code to run?
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timotimo you can write a tiny piece of code and --target=ast to see how exactly it's getting invoked 15:30
other than that, have you tried giving us your code? even golfed if you like
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hackedNODE seatek: why is it a wrong message? rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id...et-history 15:42
seatek: you never fixed the first error it complained about, so it's still complaining about it. 15:43
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hackedNODE m: sub MAIN (:$x, @foo) {} 15:46
camelia rakudo-moar 2a2f26: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Cannot put required parameter @foo after variadic parameters␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3sub MAIN (:$x, @foo7⏏5) {}␤ expecting any of:␤ constraint␤»
hackedNODE
.oO( what the fuck is a variadic parameter... )
m: sub foo (:$x, *@foo) { dd [$x, @foo] } foo :x, ^10 15:47
camelia rakudo-moar 2a2f26: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Strange text after block (missing semicolon or comma?)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3sub foo (:$x, *@foo) { dd [$x, @foo] }7⏏5 foo :x, ^10␤ expecting any of:␤ infix␤ infix stopper␤ …»
hackedNODE m: sub foo (:$x, *@foo) { dd [$x, @foo] }; foo :x, ^10
camelia rakudo-moar 2a2f26: OUTPUT«[Bool::True, [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]]␤»
hackedNODE seatek: never mind. I see it now
FROGGS o/ 15:48
[Coke] hackedNODE: I'm guessing CS-pretentious way of saying optional? 15:49
hackedNODE Well, the docs say variadic params are slurpies: docs.perl6.org/type/Signature#Slur...Parameters 15:50
Which makes even less sense, since I wouldn't call :$x slurpy
And `variadic` isn't even in the dictionary. Kinda LTA if you ask me.
[Coke] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variadic
hackedNODE I see 15:51
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TimToady basically, you should be able to find the positions of the positional parameters easily, and it's not easy if you have any optional parameters before the positional ones 15:52
RabidGravy It's in my dictionary :) 15:53
grep -i variadic /usr/share/dict/words
variadic
hackedNODE RabidGravy: and what's the definition? :)
grondilu hello #perl6 15:54
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grondilu m: (sub f($) {})(f($)) 15:54
camelia ( no output )
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grondilu ^I'm slightly surprised this is ok 15:54
hackedNODE grondilu: why? A sub can call itself without issues 15:55
TimToady it should probably read: Cannot put positional parameter @foo after optional or slurpy parameters
grondilu yeah but I thought it was out of scope
awwaiid I don't think parens make a scope
TimToady two different $ there
awwaiid only curleys
grondilu awwaiid: true
[Coke] grondilu: no different scope wise than : sub f($) {} ; f($) 15:56
TimToady those are not the same $
dalek c: 758b7ac | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Type/Signature.pod6:
Add note on what "variadic" is and pop into index
hackedNODE By default subs are our scoped 15:57
TimToady or yeah, parens don't make a scope, if that's the issue
hackedNODE: no, they are my scoped
hackedNODE huh
Oh, I'm confused with classes
awwaiid yeah, I ran into that when trying to call a package's sub from outside. Gotta 'our' it 15:58
TimToady yes, that requires 'our', or an export from a module
or some other kind of alias to the outer scope
hackedNODE TimToady: oh, I left you a bot message in #perl6-dev :)
awwaiid ya 15:59
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seatek hackedNODE, sorry was away - yeah, it was just a definition for a variable type associated with a Pg column data type that needed to be added to make the warnings disappear 16:19
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hackedNODE yeah, I'll try to fix that some time by Tuesday 16:33
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seatek hackedNODE, oh I thought you were talking about the patch I sent for DBIish - but you were talking about the error message vagueness with the variadoc parameters. Yeah, that came about when I was silli-ly trying to associate a default value list, with the slurpy list part. Which would be handy, but I imagine might be weird to actually cope with (and is better handled in the method itself). I mean, you could 16:44
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seatek put everything and the kitchen sink into the parameter stuff, but it's good it gets cut off somewhere. 16:44
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hackedNODE I actually think defaults on slurpies would be handy. And I'm yet to get any answer for why they're not supported :) 16:45
sub foo (*@files = 'default-file') {...} 16:46
seatek yeah that's what i natually felt it could do
but it couldn't
hackedNODE I guess I can see why: you can't not-specify a slurpy, so it doesn't know when to give it a default. It's just my thinking was to apply the default if the slurpy ends up empty. 16:48
dalek c: a8e3008 | (Garrett Goebel)++ | doc/Type/List.pod6:
#926 produce method is not documented
 16:50
c: bf0331b | (Garrett Goebel)++ | doc/Type/List.pod6:
found and fixed typo
c: e730384 | RabidGravy++ | doc/Type/List.pod6:
Merge pull request #936 from ggoebel/master

Issue #926 produce method is not documented
seatek that's what i though -- that it must not instantiate the list unless there is something there... but you always have to check if something is there.... so why not check if there is some default.... ? :)
hackedNODE m: sub foo (@files = 'default-file') { dd @files }([]) 16:51
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«[]␤»
seatek hmm 16:53
:)
hackedNODE Yeah. It's only when the param is missing entirely that the default would kick in
Actually, there's a way to workaround it 16:54
m: sub foo (*@files where { $^v.push: "default-value" unless $^v; True } ) { dd @files }()
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«["default-value"]␤»
hackedNODE m: sub foo (*@files where { $^v.push: "default-value" unless $^v; True } ) { dd @files }(1, 2, 3)
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«[1, 2, 3]␤»
seatek i refuse. i'll just do it in the method ;) 16:56
hackedNODE m: sub foo (*@files where $_ || .push: "default-value" ) { dd @files }()
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«["default-value"]␤»
hackedNODE Well, you can also do this: 16:57
m: subset Default where $_ || .push: "default value"; sub foo (Default *@files) { dd @files }()
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Slurpy positional parameters with type constraints are not supported␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3default value"; sub foo (Default *@files7⏏5) { dd @files }()␤ expecting any of:␤ constraint␤»
hackedNODE oh... :)
seatek all these crazy new syntaxes... i found myself yesterday doing this: for @row -> ($var1, $var2, $var3) {} instead of just doing the easy ($var1, $var2, $var3) = @rows like we've always done.
i think i have a sprained brain 16:58
hackedNODE m: sub infix:<¯\_(ツ)_/¯> { @_.join }; say "What " ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ "crazy new syntaxes?" 16:59
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«What crazy new syntaxes?␤»
17:00 eliasr joined
hackedNODE m: sub 𝕹𝖊𝖛𝖊𝖗-𝖍𝖊𝖆𝖗𝖉-𝖔𝖋-𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒 { &?BLOCK.name.say }() 17:01
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«𝕹𝖊𝖛𝖊𝖗-𝖍𝖊𝖆𝖗𝖉-𝖔𝖋-𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒␤»
gfldex m: my @row = 1; my ($a, $b, $c) = @row; dd $a, $b, $c; for @row -> $a, $b, $c {}; 17:02
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«Int $a = 1␤Any $b = Any␤Any $c = Any␤Too few positionals passed; expected 3 arguments but got 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
gfldex seatek: not the same thing ^^^
17:02 domidumont joined, hankache joined
hankache good evening #perl6 17:03
hackedNODE m: -> $tod { "good $tod!".say }(<evening morning afternoon>.all)
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«good all("evening", "morning", "afternoon")!␤»
hackedNODE bah 17:04
blocks don't thread?
m: sub ($tod) { "good $tod!".say }(<evening morning afternoon>.all)
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«good evening!␤good morning!␤good afternoon!␤»
hankache :)
hackedNODE m: -> Any $tod { "good $tod!".say }(<evening morning afternoon>.all) 17:05
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«good evening!␤good morning!␤good afternoon!␤»
hackedNODE \o/
seatek m: my @row = 1, 2, 3; my ($a, $b, $c) = @row ; say "$a $b $c";
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
seatek m: my @row = 1, 2, 3; for @row -> $a, $b, $c {} ; say "$a $b $c";
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Variable '$a' is not declared␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3 2, 3; for @row -> $a, $b, $c {} ; say "7⏏5$a $b $c";␤»
hackedNODE seatek: the block of the for loop does arity and type checks for you, while () doesn't 17:06
seatek hackedNODE, yeah - i didn't need any checking... it was just that the old and traditional way that I've used a million times had fallen out of my head somehow ;) 17:07
I've been spending so much time play on this I've gone loopy 17:08
17:10 vike joined
[Coke] "old traditional" == perl 5? 17:12
17:12 cdg left
seatek yeah, well, in at least that 6 is new to me and 5 isn't 17:13
17:13 gregf_ left 17:14 cdg joined
seatek I just have to learn new bad habits in Perl 6 17:15
17:18 TEttinger joined
psch i think that's part of the users mission currently, to figure out bad habits 17:19
as in, we don't really have lots of Best Practices yet
although maybe that's started and i've been burying myself too deep in the compiler :) 17:20
seatek I do find it interesting. Like today I was wondering, should I do @row[0] or @row.head 17:21
my guess is [0] would be much faster
hackedNODE Well, they do different things, so you'd do the one that gives you the right thing :)
m: my @a = ^10; dd @a.head; dd @a[0] 17:22
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«Int @a = 0␤Int @a = 0␤»
hackedNODE bah
m: my @a = ^10; dd @a.head
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«Int @a = 0␤»
hackedNODE That gives me (0,).Seq on 2016.08.1-143-gc9b18c6
RabidGravy itym .first 17:23
but they are almost identical in speed
seatek oh so it's not returning the values but a list
RabidGravy [jonathan@cannibal ~]$ time perl6 -e 'my @a = <a b c>; say @a[0]'
a
real0m0.449s
user0m0.377s
sys0m0.071s
[jonathan@cannibal ~]$ time perl6 -e 'my @a = <a b c>; say @a.first'
a
real0m0.446s
user0m0.379s
sys0m0.065s
hackedNODE CCCombo breaker!
perlpilot m: my @a = 5..10; dd @a.head; dd @a[0]; dd @a.first; # hmm 17:24
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«Int @a = 5␤Int @a = 5␤5␤»
hackedNODE seatek: they're supposed to, but I suspect recent changes broke something
And our bisect bots are ded :(
m: my @a = ^10; dd @a.head: 5
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«(0, 1, 2, 3, 4).Seq␤»
hackedNODE m: my @a = ^10; dd @a.head: 2
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«(0, 1).Seq␤»
hackedNODE m: my @a = ^10; dd @a.head: 1
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«(0,).Seq␤»
hackedNODE m: my @a = ^10; dd @a.head
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«Int @a = 0␤»
hackedNODE Interesting
m: [], 'head', \() 17:25
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«WARNINGS for <tmp>:␤Useless use of constant string "head" in sink context (lines 1, 1)␤»
hackedNODE s: [], 'head', \()
SourceBaby hackedNODE, Sauce is at github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/c6c0...s.pm#L1886
hackedNODE Ah, OK. It was made that way on purpose.
seatek: I guess in this case, it's TMTOWTDI. I don't think there's any noticable speed difference 17:26
s: &postcircumfix:<[ ]>, \([], 0) 17:27
SourceBaby hackedNODE, Sauce is at github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/c6c0...ce.pm#L122
psch m: ^5 .head(0..$_).sum.say for ^5 # great way to write '[\+] ^5' innit
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«0␤1␤3␤6␤10␤»
hackedNODE s: [], 'AT-POS', \(0) 17:28
SourceBaby hackedNODE, Sauce is at github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/c6c0...ay.pm#L558
seatek it's weird that @a.first can be as fast as @a[0] -- especially when you can use smartmatch in first
psch seatek: well, MMD
hackedNODE seatek: @a[0] is just a sub call that calls a method (the above two links from SourceBaby are the source) 17:29
psch m: [Any, 1, 2].first.say
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
seatek everything's an object -- so intuitive notions of what might be more optimal aren't necessarily right
perlpilot seatek: the smartmatching first is a different code path because of multi dispatch 17:30
hackedNODE seatek: Also, not everything is yet optimal :)
perlpilot seatek: so, it's not weird at all
seatek got it ;)
psch m: say Array.can('first')[0].candidates>>.signature
camelia rakudo-moar 392d21: OUTPUT«(($: :$end, *%_) ($: Bool:D $t, *%_) ($: Regex:D $test, :$end, *%a) ($: Callable:D $test, :$end, *%a is copy) ($: Mu $test, :$end, *%a))␤»
psch (there is only one 'first' in Array.^mro fwiw :P ) 17:31
seatek: so yeah, we know from the (lack of) arguments whether we call to smartmatch or not
s/call/have/ 17:32
perlpilot++ # said the same thing too
17:33 wamba joined
hackedNODE m: ^1e300 .sum.say # another great MMD example :) 17:34
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«5000000000000000525047602552044216270793933093550278169323451328159195055357092294442768790241055629545023145306903910785744345070153185134439050762136888750179425419080412754071315685751771726394745487267097512353836816964499664042956479406857844701441222…»
perlpilot btw, I just rand 10_000_000 calls to @a.head, @a.first and @a[0] (because, why not?) and it seems that first took 49s, head 47s, and @a[0] 21s So ... if you're really into micro optimization and need the first item of an array, use the normal indexing method :-)
El_Che lizmat: on what rekudo version did you add the json error output? Talking upstream about the vim syntax support for perl 6 (to integrate the changes from my plugin, now regex based) 17:35
psch perlpilot: what about calling AT-POS directly?
seatek perlpilot, you've brought order back to my little universe
perlpilot++
hackedNODE El_Che: 2016.09
El_Che: this's the commit: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/aa...5146f19da6 17:36
seatek psch++
psch (or heck, why not nqp::atpos(nqp::getattr(nqp::decont(@a), 'Positional', $!storage), $idx) ha ha)
honestly though, don't do that :)
seatek hackedNODE++
lizmat El_Che: 23rd of August, so it's probably in 206.09
seatek thanks guys
hackedNODE And another addition to the feature shortly after: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/82...f82a88931a
lizmat 2016.09
El_Che thx, I'll add it to the ticket 17:37
seatek this object-oriented approach, clear at the deepest levels even... has it proven to be good at keeping order, or has it proven to be just as fragile, only in different ways? 17:38
perlpilot psch: AT-POS -> 14s 17:39
:-)
seatek: uh ... no? 17:40
El_Che he wants to add perl6 support, but I wonder if it's better to just start with 20016.09 and a new plugin
hackedNODE 20016? :) Talk about a 100-year language! : D
I hope I'm still alive to do the release. 17:41
17:41 itaipu joined
seatek perlpilot, yeah it's pretty much an impossible question 17:41
El_Che hackedNODE: the code I have ofr vim syntax checkingis regex based
the new rakudo support json output (lizmat++)
so it will less fragile 17:42
perlpilot seatek: Have you read TimToady's waterbed theory of language design?
El_Che on the other hand, the format is not set on stone 17:43
hackedNODE perlpilot: I haven't whereisit?
seatek perlpilot, no, I'm sadly mostly just a language *user* 17:44
perlpilot, but i'll look for that for some lunch reading
harmil_wk Is there a way to construct an anonymous list of pairs where the keys are the keys from an existing hash and the values are aliased to the matching values of the original (not copied)? 17:45
perlpilot There's an early version at www.perl.com/pub/2003/06/25/perl6es...ials.html, but I'm sure TimToady has something better elsewhere.
harmil_wk I could do it with a temporary named hash, but not sure if it's possible without.
seatek perlpilot, couldn't wait.. ah i see. yes. that's what i've found with everything that's supposed to make everything wonderful
perlpilot, that must be a... challenging balancing act 17:47
timotimo wow, holy crap, the google pixel is *crazy* expensive in europe compared to the us
psch harmil_wk: a subset of keys or all the keys?
harmil_wk psch: all the keys 17:48
psch m: my %h = a => 1, b => 2; %h.pairs.cache.grep(*.key eq 'a')[0].value = 3; say %h.perl
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«{:a(3), :b(2)}␤»
psch harmil_wk: i mean, i might be totally missing the point though :) 17:49
harmil_wk I think so... not sure.
lizmat .u beer
yoleaux U+1F37A BEER MUG [So] (🍺)
U+1F37B CLINKING BEER MUGS [So] (🍻)
harmil_wk I was asking because this seemed to be a bit clunky: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/....nqp#L1194 17:50
lizmat m: my $a = "🍺"; $a++; say $a
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«🍻␤»
harmil_wk And was wondering if there was a way without the temporary variable to do the same.
lizmat (demoing at amsterdam pm meeting)
psch harmil_wk: i don't think you can get it easier than that in nqp, no
(the fact that any perl6-ish solution would have lots more overhead aside) 17:51
harmil_wk Huh. Thanks.
hackedNODE timotimo: so what does it cost? 17:53
Looks highly unoriginal in both name and design. 17:54
timotimo the fingerprint reader on the back seems like an orinigal thing
not that i like a fingerprint reader at all
hackedNODE Exactly lol. 17:55
$1,179 (CAD).... fuck that lol
timotimo 869 euros if you want 128gb storage, 759 euros otherwise
759 euros equals 850 dollars 17:56
psch only on the stock market
for consumer goods it's always different
17:56 mempko joined
psch australia suffers worst for that i guess 17:56
timotimo "Starting at $649 in the US"
hackedNODE My 2-year old $700CAD Note 4 has better specs across the board, if you ignore the extra gig of RAM. Does google plan to compete with Apple under the "we have a phone jack" banner? XD 17:58
masak so... the .WHERE of an object can change due to GC moves, yes? 17:59
hackedNODE yes
masak what do I use that doesn't change? :)
hackedNODE .WHICH?
I guess for what is a fair question :)
perlpilot just wrote some P5 like: $a = $b->thing if defined $b; only $a and $b were much longer. 18:00
Would have been so much simpler with P6
masak debug output; need to trace some pretty hairy lexical lookup in 007
18:01 rgrinberg left
lizmat masak: .WHICH contains the non-changing objectid 18:01
masak: if you wanna go nqp, you can use nqp::objectid
hackedNODE m: my $x = 4; my $y = 4; my $x2 = 1000; my $y2 = 1000; dd [$x.WHICH, $y.WHICH, $x2.WHICH, $y2.WHICH];
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«[ObjAt.new("Int|4"), ObjAt.new("Int|4"), ObjAt.new("Int|1000"), ObjAt.new("Int|1000")]␤»
masak ok, great
seatek perlpilot, that's a great piece you linked me to - thank you.
perlpilot seatek: you're welcome 18:05
seatek A clearly defined set of rules will never match the power of a feature that "just seems right."
That's the waterbed in large part it seems to me
yet objects require strict rules or else troublesome dependencies start to happen 18:06
that's the amazing bit to me
it must be some pretty wild design at the "atomic" level. Hmm. This VM is kinda making sense now. 18:09
mst perlpilot: show me the code and let's see if you confused something :)
masak "waterbed theory" is also mentioned once in A05
psch seatek: well, it mostly starts with knowhow (scnr)
m: say Any.HOW.HOW.HOW.HOW.^name # ha ha 18:10
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«KnowHOW␤»
psch seatek: well, the object model at least... :) 18:11
seatek psch, :) :)
18:11 cdg left
hackedNODE mst: the if defined for method calls is pretty common in Perl 5 tho. While Perl 6 has a safe call operator 18:13
18:14 hankache left
hackedNODE m: dd Mu.?grep: 42; 18:14
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
mst hackedNODE: the if defined for method calls is common if you don't know perl5 well enough to avoid it, yes
hackedNODE :(
mst hackedNODE: however Safe::Isa largely eliminates the need, and there's alternatives for other things
as usual, many criticisms of perl5 are due to insufficient knowledge of perl5 18:15
though I totally agree perl6 makes it easier to find the right thing
hackedNODE Yes, there's module for everything. Until that module is written by a crazy person and another module de jour takes place.
masak mst: I have an honest question about Perl 5 and insufficient knowledge. if I suspect there are a lot of more-or-less well-known CPAN modules I ought to know about (so I don't re-invent the wheel or use a lesser Perl 5 than I should), where should I start looking to learn more? 18:16
hackedNODE masak: Task::Kensho 18:17
mst which we should do a round of updates to shortly
also the mstpan
masak ooh
I knew about Task::Kensho, but not about mstpan
hackedNODE looks at Safe::Isa 18:18
18:18 Jonis joined
hackedNODE It's hard to convince me that `use Safe::Isa; ...->$_call_if_object` is on equal footing with just `.?` 18:19
mst I wasn't trying to convince you of that 18:20
masak .oO( don't you come here trying to tell me what you were or were not trying to tell me! ) :P 18:21
18:24 AlexDaniel joined
dogbert17 o/ #perl6 18:26
hackedNODE \o
masak yo dogbert17
dogbert17 have a possible mystery for you
psch ooh
dogbert17++
masak the butler! the butler did it! 18:27
hackedNODE :)
dogbert17 m: my int $i = 2482111348; say $i; $i = $i div 2; say $i #what's happening here?
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«2482111348␤-906427974␤»
psch no, the gardener with the aerosol can!
masak dogbert17: what, don't you like negative numbers? :P
psch m: say 2482111348.base(2)
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«10010011111100100000001101110100␤»
dogbert17 masak: they have their charm :-) 18:28
psch m: say 2482111348.base(2).comb(/\d/).chars
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«63␤»
psch that is mysterious
dogbert17 yay
psch m: say -906427974.base(2).comb(/\d/).chars
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«-59␤»
perlpilot dogbert17: you could have saved some characters and just said "bug" instead of "mystery" :)
masak m: say 2482111348.base(2).chars
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«32␤»
psch masak++ # i'm being silly
shoulda gone .elems, in hindsight 18:29
dogbert17 so an int is 32 bits then?
masak m: say (-906427974).base(2).chars
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«31␤»
psch the speculated answer is "it's platform dependent"
not sure if we're actually going with that for roast though
masak conceptually, they're arbitrary-precision
psch masak: int is?
masak: i thought that was Int
masak oh, wait
Xliff say 8675309.base(3)
m: say 8675309.base(3) 18:30
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«121022202021202␤»
masak didn't see the lowercase `int` there :)
hackedNODE m: my int $i = 2482111348; say $i / 2;
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«1241055674␤»
dogbert17 m: my int64 $i = 2482111348; say $i; $i = $i div 2; say $i # a larger int I think
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«2482111348␤-906427974␤»
hackedNODE s: &infix:<div>, \(my int $i = 2482111348, 2)
SourceBaby hackedNODE, Sauce is at github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/c6c0...nt.pm#L264
psch m: my uint $i = 2482111348; say $i; $i = $i div 2; say $i 18:31
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«2482111348␤-906427974␤»
psch j: my uint $i = 2482111348; say $i; $i = $i div 2; say $i
camelia rakudo-jvm 2a1605: OUTPUT«2482111348␤1241055674␤»
psch haha! jvm backend wins again!
hackedNODE m: my int $a = 2482111348; my $b = 2; nqp::div_I(nqp::decont($a), nqp::decont($b), Int)
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Could not find nqp::decont, did you forget 'use nqp;' ?␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 038; my $b = 2; nqp::div_I(nqp::decont($a)7⏏5, nqp::decont($b), Int)␤»
hackedNODE m: use MONKEY-GUTS; my int $a = 2482111348; my $b = 2; dd nqp::div_I(nqp::decont($a), nqp::decont($b), Int)
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«1241055674␤»
masak "XML::Simple claims to round trip ... but only in the sense that if you jump off a tall building with an overly long bungee cord, your mangled remains will probably end up somewhere back near the top." -- mst++ :) 18:32
hackedNODE m: use MONKEY-GUTS; my int $a = 2482111348; my $b = 2; dd nqp::div_i($a, $b)
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«-906427974␤»
hackedNODE m: use MONKEY-GUTS; my int $a = 2482111348; my $b = 2; dd nqp::div_i($a, nqp::decont($b))
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«-906427974␤»
hackedNODE Are you tired of my spam, or should I continue? :D 18:33
dogbert17 I'm not tired :)
psch it's not kinda "int64 isn't, also signedness" i think? :S
masak still thinks the butler did it
psch starts to agree 18:34
Xliff query camelia
psch although the gardener might be more involved with native(ly growing plants ha ha)
hackedNODE It's kinda weird that the candidate SourceBaby points to actually works.
And the broken one isn't supposed to fit
Xliff Well, looks like someone beat me to CArray.STORE. It has taken me forever to get around to it. 18:35
psch m: sub f(Int $) { "Int" }; sub f(int $) { "int" }; my int $x = 0; say f $x
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Redeclaration of routine 'f' (did you mean to declare a multi-sub?)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3Int $) { "Int" }; sub f(int $) { "int" }7⏏5; my int $x = 0; say f $x␤ expecting any of:␤ horizo…»
lucasb_ what? the MMD for int vs Int? I don't think they are always reliable
psch m: multi f(Int $) { "Int" }; multi f(int $) { "int" }; my int $x = 0; say f $x
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«int␤»
Xliff m: use NativeCall; my @a = CArray[int32].new; @a = Bool.roll(100); say @a.elems
psch there was a bug there once but it was also fixed
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«100␤»
psch maybe not quite
Xliff Or maybe not. 18:36
hackedNODE lucasb_: what does that mean? What's the point of unreliability?
lucasb_ m: multi f(Int) {'I'}; multi f(int) {'i'}; say f(1)
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«i␤»
lucasb_ m: multi f(Int) {'I'}; multi f(int) {1+2}; say f(1)
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«I␤»
psch m: multi f(Int $) { "Int" }; multi f(int $) { "int" }; my int $x = 0; say f $x
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«int␤»
psch ah nvm
seatek All I know is that my first day playing with P6 recently, I threw away ever using "int" because it was doing crazy stuff and used "Int" instead 18:37
lucasb_ just changed the inside expression and the dispatch stopped matching
hackedNODE lucasb_: that's an optimizer bug
If you turn it off it works fine 18:38
lucasb_ ah, I didn't know that. thanks hackedNODE++
dogbert17 hackedNODE++
hackedNODE Would be nice if camelia had an option to run with optimizer off
psch dimly remembers jnthn++ fixing something along those lines back somewhen...
hackedNODE ...by which I mean I'm too lazy to do it myself and hoping someone else will do it for me :P
psch i wonder if the EvalServer actually supports that 18:39
i think it should, but i'm not sure
timotimo it ought to
hackedNODE Ohooo
timotimo if not, it should be easy to implement
hackedNODE dogbert17: yours is also an optimizer bug
Optimzier bugs for everyone \o/ 18:40
psch yeah we got a lot of those recently don't we
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hackedNODE That's good. It means they're migrating further down the end :) 18:40
dogbert17 interesting, I used int to speed up a problem I discussed with timotimo yesterday when I noticed that the results defered between Int and int
s/defered/differed/ 18:41
the int version was quite a bit faster but alas incorrect
timotimo damn
dogbert17 timotimo: optimizer bug according to hackedNODE 18:42
18:42 labster joined
timotimo right 18:43
hackedNODE Yeah, and I think what lucasb_ showed is the same bug. The int candidate gets called when an Int is given.
So the int, int div candidate gets called.
m: my int $a = 2482111348; my int $b = 2; say $a div $b;
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«-906427974␤»
timotimo that should only happen if the numbers are in range, though
hackedNODE Why does that ^ give a negative numbers though?
timotimo o_O
m: say 2482111348.base(16)
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«93F20374␤»
hackedNODE m: use MONKEY-GUTS; my int $a = 2482111348; my int $b = 2; say nqp::div_i($a,$b); 18:44
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«-906427974␤»
timotimo m: say (-906427974).base(16)
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«-3606FE46␤»
masak fixes a pretty hairy bug by switching on MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL and using EVAL 18:45
hackedNODE m: "say 'Stop absuing the monkeys!'".EVAL
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«Stop absuing the monkeys!␤»
perlpilot "fixes"? or "sweeps under the rug"? ;)
masak by the way, I still think the error message for EVAL is a tad too hysterical. three exclamation marks. "a very dangerous function!!!"
18:46 sufrostico left
masak perlpilot: yes, there is technical debt in there. yes, I will eventually get around to doing it differently :P 18:46
hackedNODE :D
masak but this is a local, short-term improvement (that just happens to involve EVAL)
dogbert17 hackedNODE: should I RT this?
hackedNODE dogbert17: yes, please. 18:47
perlpilot Hey, I won't judge. I'm just trying to make sure about your grasp of reality :)
18:47 mempko left
dogbert17 ok 18:47
perlpilot dogbert17: did you look to see if there was already an RT ticket for it? You might do a quick search first, but when in doubt, rakudobug it. 18:48
dogbert17 perlpilot: I'll take a look 18:49
perlpilot: RT #128655 looks a bit similar 18:51
synopsebot6 Link: rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Displa...?id=128655
masak perlpilot: github.com/masak/007/commit/a39a44...1b5162459e 18:52
lucasb_ yes, looks the ticket looks related 18:53
idk why the int/Int distinction interacts with multi's
m: sub f(int) {1+2}; say f(1)
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«3␤»
lucasb_ m: multi f(int) {1+2}; say f(1)
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«Cannot resolve caller f(Int); none of these signatures match:␤ (int)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
lucasb_ also... for anyone how likes to write the docs... I'd like to suggest the inclusion of a question in the FAQ 18:54
hackedNODE dogbert17: yeah, seems to be the same thing. Maybe just comment on it, mentioning this happens with any sub with int/Int multies, not just bitwise ops, so the quickfix described in the ticket isn't applicable.
lucasb_ "A literal integer like 1234 is an 'int' or an 'Int'?"
awwaiid m: 123.WHAT.say 18:55
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
dogbert17 hackedNODE: and how do I comment on that bug?
awwaiid ah, for faq
lucasb_ I said FAQ because I myself already asked this before... but forgot the answer :D
dogbert17 do I mention the RT # in the mail subject?
lucasb_ the answer probably is "It depends" 18:56
awwaiid hehe
hackedNODE dogbert17: do you have the "Reply Comment" buttons on right of page?
dogbert17 too easy :)
pressing "Reply Comment" gives "This service is sponsored and maintained by Best Practical Solutions and runs on Perl.org infrastructure. For issues related to this RT instance (aka "perlbug"), please contact perlbug-admin at perl.org " 18:58
hackedNODE dogbert17: did you log in?
dogbert17 with what credentials?
hackedNODE dogbert17: if you type up what you wanted to comment with I can post it on your behalf
dogbert17: with your RT account. 18:59
I guess you don't have it? :D
dogbert17 :D
hackedNODE And I think even if you had one, commenting on just any ticket requires elevated privileges
18:59 FROGGS left
dogbert17 I'll whip something up and send you a gist 19:00
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perlpilot masak: rather than EVAL, could you wrap that in a sub {} which you immediately evaluate? 19:01
masak perlpilot: no, I tried that.
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masak perlpilot: the problem is that `class` is not a closure. it doesn't close over its environment. 19:02
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masak it evaluates at compile time, and after that it's just not very fun at parties. 19:02
perlpilot oh, I see. I was thinking the sub {} would make a closure for you, but by then it's too late 19:03
masak indeed
perlpilot wonders if you can parameterize anonymous classes 19:04
masak no, only roles
and I tried that too
perlpilot heh
masak but even that happens too early
or at least I couldn't find the right invocation to make it happen late enough
19:05 sjoshi joined
masak but EVAL is a way to make things happen late 19:05
just as BEGIN makes things happen early 19:07
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[Coke] m: use MONKEY; EVAL 'use MONKEY; ' ~ ('EVAL ' x 2000) ~ 3 19:22
camelia ( no output )
[Coke] m: use MONKEY; say EVAL 'use MONKEY; ' ~ ('EVAL ' x 2000) ~ 3 # not as late as possible, but pretty late 19:23
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«3␤»
masak boggles 19:24
wait, you have to `use MONKEY;` inside the EVAL string, too? 19:25
surely by that time you're already pretty monkied?
masak .oO( this is a simian compunit )
[Coke] yup, required.
mst monkey C, monkeys du 19:26
[Coke] monkey C, monkey Mu
gfldex m: my int $i; dd $i; $i = Nil; 19:28
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«0␤Cannot unbox a type object␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
gfldex m: my int $i; dd $i; BEGIN say 'bird'; $i = Nil; 19:29
camelia rakudo-moar c6c0e6: OUTPUT«bird␤0␤Cannot unbox a type object␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
gfldex ENODOC++
dalek c: a6c627c | gfldex++ | doc/Type/Nil.pod6:
explain native type and Nil
 19:33
gfldex ENODOC--
19:33 wamba left
gfldex m: my int $i; $i = Nil; 19:33
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«Cannot unbox a type object␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
gfldex that's LTA. If there is a Nil spillage somewhere, that error message can be fairly confusing.
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[Coke] what's a better error message? 19:40
psch m: my int $x is default(0) = Nil; say $x 19:42
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Can't use trait 'is default' on a native.␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3my int $x is default(0)7⏏5 = Nil; say $x␤ expecting any of:␤ constraint␤»
timotimo it could tell that it's a Nil there
via the debugname
19:42 labster joined
psch well, native types cannot have defaults nor "no value", so assigning Nil to them is meaningless 19:42
not sure how that translates to an error message though 19:43
timotimo working on it
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firefish5000 Good day! Its been a while since I have fixed my perl6... just to be sure, there is no no longer a 'for' method for lists/arrays correct? 19:44
psch m: Array.can('for').say 19:45
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«()␤»
psch m: Positional.can('for').say
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«()␤»
moritz firefish5000: no, it's spelled 'map' again :/
timotimo just pushed a patch to moarvm that makes the error message more informative
hackedNODE \o/ 19:46
psch j: my int $i; $i = Nil;
camelia rakudo-jvm 2a1605: OUTPUT«Cannot unbox a type object␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤» 19:47
firefish5000 Ok, thanks moritz, all of my old code had '.for', I love dot notation. Looks like 's/\.for/\.map' works well! 19:48
Unfortunatly my code is still horribly buggy, I finaly got it to compile but it does the exact opisit of what its suppose to do.... 19:49
lucasb_ drop the R metaoperator :) 19:50
timotimo probably needs a bit more explicit flattening
firefish5000 I am not sure if that was aimed at me, but it does seem to need more explicit flattening, bu single value returned is now a 4 levels deep array 19:52
[Coke] suspects this code is over a year old.
lucasb_ what was the purpose of the .for method? to have a .map that didn't accumulate it's result? 19:53
timotimo yeah, definitely pre-GLR
firefish5000 lol, 1.5-3 years I think. Supposedly I last worked on it in Febuary of last year 19:54
moritz lucasb_: it as a .map with some (non-)flattening behavior that .map was going to lose
*was
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lucasb_ moritz: ah, ok. thanks 19:55
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skids nativetypes do "have a default" in that they have a hard-coded one, just cannot have the "default" trait applied. Whether assigning Nil to them should be legal... and whether they should have a .default method... I dunno. 20:04
m: my int32 $a; $a.say;
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«0␤»
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lucasb_ m: my num $x; say $x.perl 20:05
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
lucasb_ interesting. I was expecting 0.0 as the default
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andrzejku hello my friends :) 20:17
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[Coke] o/ 20:28
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gfldex can zef setup a new CompUnit::Repository ? 20:30
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gfldex it can not 20:39
how does one create a CompUnit::Repository? 20:40
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gfldex zef --install-to=home insall Any::Module::You::Like # that will install a repro in $HOME/.perl6 20:44
maybe I should first read the code and then not ask questions? :->
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seatek m: sub del(Int :$id where {$id > 0}) { $id }; say del(id => 2); 21:08
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«2␤»
21:08 labster left
seatek m: sub del(Int :$id? where {$id > 0}) { $id }; say del(id => 2); 21:09
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«2␤»
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seatek m: sub del(Int :$id? where {$id > 0}) { $id }; say del(); 21:09
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«Invocant requires an instance of type Int, but a type object was passed. Did you forget a .new?␤ in sub del at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
seatek It must be my sprained brain
m: sub del(Int :$id? where {$id > 0}) { 0 }; say del(); 21:10
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«Invocant requires an instance of type Int, but a type object was passed. Did you forget a .new?␤ in sub del at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
seatek does using a "where" clause in the signature make a parameter impossible to be optional?
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AlexDaniel m: sub del(Int :$id? where {not defined $id or $id > 0}) { 0 }; say del(); 21:12
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«0␤»
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seatek ok that's weird but i understand - thank you 21:13
AlexDaniel seatek: it is weird indeed
seatek AlexDaniel++
AlexDaniel I am not sure if where {} check should be run if the parameter is optional 21:14
seatek i think it absolutely should not
AlexDaniel seatek: can you create a ticket for that?
seatek i have never made a ticket here -- would that be for rakudo? 21:15
somebody said earlier than, when in doubt, open for Rakudo.. but I felt pity for Rakudo when I heard that, so I'm a little hesitant ;) 21:16
AlexDaniel seatek: no it's right 21:17
huggable: bug
huggable AlexDaniel, nothing found
AlexDaniel huggable: bug report
huggable AlexDaniel, nothing found
gfldex it must be run or you could not check for mutual exclusive parameters
AlexDaniel huggable: rakudobug
huggable AlexDaniel, [email@hidden.address] or use perl6 query on rt.perl.org ; see github.com/rakudo/rakudo/#reporting-bugs
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AlexDaniel seatek: this one ↑ 21:18
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gfldex m: sub f(Int :$a?, Int :$b? where { $a.defined ^^ $b.defined }){}; f(:a(10)) 21:19
camelia ( no output )
gfldex m: sub f(Int :$a?, Int :$b? where { $a.defined ^^ $b.defined }){}; f(:a(10), :b(10))
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«Constraint type check failed for parameter '$b'␤ in sub f at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
seatek gfldex, You saying that you have to run the where clause even on optional parameters?
gfldex m: sub f(Int :$a?, Int :$b? where { $a.defined ^^ $b.defined or die 'either use :a or :b, but not both'}){}; f(:a(10), :b(10))
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«either use :a or :b, but not both␤ in sub f at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
gfldex yes 21:20
or that example would not be possible
seatek then it isn't an optional parameter
there's some kind of "pay the devil" in there
gfldex all named parameters are optional 21:21
AlexDaniel so now you have a constraint on $b that checks both $a and $b
which is even weirder 21:22
seatek all named parameters are optional, but when you have a named parameter with a where clause, you have to remember to check again if it's there or not yourself
gfldex m: sub f(Int $i? where { $_ ~~ Int || $_ > 10 }){}; f 21:23
camelia ( no output )
seatek so it's optional, but you better make sure if it's there or not
gfldex a where clause must be able to supersede a type constraint
m: sub f(Int $i? where { $_ ~~ Nil || $_ > 10 }){}; f 21:24
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«Invocant requires an instance of type Int, but a type object was passed. Did you forget a .new?␤ in sub f at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
seatek this is that damn waterbed
gfldex m: sub (|(:$a, :$b) where { $a.defined ^^ $b.defined } ){} # that doesn't work and that's why any where clause has to be executed 21:25
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Obsolete use of | or \ with sigil on param (:$a, :$b)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3sub (|(:$a, :$b)7⏏5 where { $a.defined ^^ $b.defined } ){} ␤»
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gfldex a where-clause is a guard against false assignment. If no argument is there to bind to, the compiler invents a value for it and it picks Any 21:27
because Any is the default default
so there is always a value to be checked against, what the where-clause does 21:28
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seatek I can accept it. But it will require a chocolate break to completely. 21:32
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seatek Where I'll be pondering the detailed, lesser-used semantics against the common intuitive thinking 21:34
gfldex ENODOC btw 21:35
seatek what's ENODOC? 21:37
dalek c: c84bbed | gfldex++ | doc/Type/Signature.pod6:
tell that where clauses are executed on not provided optional arguments
 21:39
gfldex ERROR NO DOCUMENTATION
and since my brain is a sieve with a fairly wide mesh, I tend to fix those to help my future self 21:40
seatek Thank you for that! I'd put giant flashing warning lights there that say, OPTIONAL PARAMETERS ARE NOT OPTIONAL AND WILL RESULT IN A COMPILER ERROR IF YOU USE A WHERE CLAUSE AND DO NOT CHECK IF THAT OPTIONAL PARAMETER IS DEFINED 21:42
it's much clearer to a user
gfldex but you are writing test for your software don't you? So you can't possibly miss that problem! 21:43
seatek it's not an easy one to find
there error message is useless
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seatek Invocant requires an instance of type Int, but a type object was passed. Did you forget a .new 21:44
gfldex imagine you would have to write a book about Perl 6 :->
seatek oh yeah, I forgot to check if my optional parameter was checked
gfldex the error message is LTA indeed, feel free to rakudobug
21:45 bjz left
seatek I hate the where clause now. I'm going to boycott it everywhere. ;) 21:47
gfldex m: subset S of Int where * > 10; sub f(S $i?){}; f; 21:49
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«Invocant requires an instance of type Int, but a type object was passed. Did you forget a .new?␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
gfldex that kinda sucks
m: subset S of Int where dd *; sub f(S $i?){}; f;
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«*␤*␤Constraint type check failed for parameter '$i'␤ in sub f at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
gfldex m: subset S of Int where { dd $_ }; sub f(S $i?){}; f;
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«Int $topic = Int␤Int $topic = Int␤Constraint type check failed for parameter '$i'␤ in sub f at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
gfldex that should be Nil 21:50
so there is a bug
dalek c: 0f2e64e | (David Warring)++ | META.info:
add Pod::To::HTML dependency

It's used by ./htmlify.p6		 21:51
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gfldex well, maybe not 21:52
m: f(Int $i = Int){ dd $i }; f; 21:53
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Unable to parse expression in argument list; couldn't find final ')' ␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3f(Int7⏏5 $i = Int){ dd $i }; f;␤ expecting any of:␤ infix␤ infix stopper␤»
gfldex m: sub f(Int $i = Int){ dd $i }; f;
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«Int␤»
gfldex that's what a optional parameter actually is 21:54
m: sub f(Int $i = Nil){ dd $i }; f; 22:00
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Default value 'Nil' will never bind to a parameter of type Int␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3sub f(Int $i = Nil7⏏5){ dd $i }; f;␤ expecting any of:␤ constraint␤»
masak 'night, #perl6 22:01
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seatek gfldex, i just went for a walk with an english muffin. you're right i think. the ability to check parameters, even optional ones, in the where clause, outweighs the clarity of "optional parameters" being truly, completely optional when where clauses are there. you're absolutely right, and i'm glad it's that way. but it will be point of pain for many i am sure. 22:17
gfldex i still think the topic of a where clause on a not given optional parameter should be Nil and not the type object. That way you got a chance to make the distinction within the where clause. 22:19
.tell TimToady please have a look at the following (and above) irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2016-10-04#i_13336963 22:20
yoleaux gfldex: I'll pass your message to TimToady.
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gfldex a quick grep in roast goes not find a test for optional parameters with where clauses. So that might be a blind spot of Perl 6. 22:23
seatek gfldex, i like the idea of Nil better too, but i don't have enough experience in these matters to know if a type might be better -- but i can't image why it would be.. ??
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seatek gfldex, it's a very frustrating blind spot because it's very unintuitive unless you know about it ahead of time 22:24
gfldex that's why I doced it :)
i'm trying to install all modules from the eco system. It took zef about 30min to decide in what order to install those modules. 22:26
TimToady m: subset S of Int where { not .DEFINITE or $_ > 5 }; sub f(S $i?){}; f;
camelia ( no output )
yoleaux 22:20Z <gfldex> TimToady: please have a look at the following (and above) irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2016-10-04#i_13336963
22:27 labster joined
TimToady m: subset S of Int where { not .DEFINITE or $_ > 5 }; sub f(S $i?){}; f 10; 22:27
camelia ( no output )
TimToady m: subset S of Int where { not .DEFINITE or $_ > 5 }; sub f(S $i?){}; f 0;
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«Constraint type check failed for parameter '$i'␤ in sub f at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
TimToady that's how you have to write it currently
gfldex TimToady: is .DEFINITE official? 22:28
TimToady that's what :D means
and that's pretty official... 22:29
m: say Failure.new.defined
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«False␤»
TimToady m: say Failure.new.DEFINITE
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«True␤»
gfldex m: class C { method DEFINITE { False } }; sub f($a:D){}; f C.new; 22:31
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Invalid typename 'D' in parameter declaration.␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3 method DEFINITE { False } }; sub f($a:D7⏏5){}; f C.new;␤»
TimToady m: subset S of Int where { not .DEFINITE or $_ > 5 }; sub f(S $i = 10){}; f;
camelia ( no output )
gfldex m: class C { method DEFINITE { False } }; sub f(Any:D $a){}; f C.new;
camelia ( no output )
TimToady .DEFINITE is really an operator like .WHAT 22:32
m: class C { method DEFINITE { True } }; sub f(Any:D $a){}; f C; 22:33
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«Parameter '$a' requires an instance of type Any, but a type object was passed. Did you forget a .new?␤ in sub f at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
TimToady so you can't override it like a method
iirc it actually means nqp::isconcrete or so 22:34
gfldex i wonder if it should warn when you try to overload those pseudo-methods 22:35
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timotimo i think we have a p6concrete or something 22:35
TimToady nah, for p6 you just call the .defined method 22:36
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gfldex m: class C { method WHAT { 'wrong' } }; C.new.WHAT.say; 22:37
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«(C)␤»
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TimToady same deal there, yeah 22:37
dalek c: a780b0f | gfldex++ | doc/Language/mop.pod6:
WHAT and DEFINITE are pseudo-methods
 22:38
gfldex any complains can be thwarted with RTFM :)
TimToady thing is, "where" currently means "here's an invariant that must hold in this routine" 22:39
and we uphold type invariants on optional params by supplying a type object 22:40
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TimToady m: sub f(Int $a?){ say $a ~~ Int }; f; 22:41
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«True␤»
gfldex what do you think about providing Nil to the where clause for unspecified optionals?
TimToady Nil would break that invariant view of things
type objects are how we indicate a Maybe type without a value, basically 22:45
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seatek what would you think about calling "optional" parameters, "removeable" parameters instead? that might trigger people to think and look more about it, rather than becoming frustrated. thing is, it's just when where's are attached 22:51
TimToady I don't think using a more obscure word helps here 22:53
we do allow Nil and Failure to leak out of typed functions, but it seems like a new level of danger to let them leak in 22:54
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TimToady m: sub f(Int:D $a where * > 0 = 10){ say $a ~~ Int }; f; 22:56
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«True␤»
TimToady that's the normal way of not breaking an invariant on an optional parameter, and I'm not sure trying to dwim on $a? by breaking the invariant is gonna be all that helpful 22:57
it's certainly possible we could have better error messages though
22:57 nyarmith left
seatek that would go miles 22:58
TimToady course, if you're the first person to run into this, then that says something too :)
seatek my first thought was, perl is broke! because it's an optional parameter, that obviously isn't being treated like an optional parameter 22:59
TimToady
.oO(making invariants vary is hard, let's go shopping)
 23:00
seatek i've learned so much about the internals here, listening to you guys go into why it's actually like that from this little thing :) 23:01
ok :)
23:01 bjz left
TimToady well, we're all still learning, when it comes down to it... 23:02
seatek yeah, i was just talking with someone about specialized knowledge vs generalized, and how one can become unable to see the other so easily 23:03
that's what i've always loved bout the perls, actually, (thanks timtoady :) )
i trust what you guys are doing 23:04
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TimToady the downside of every feature serving multiple purposes is that if you make something dwim for one purpose, it often compromises the other purposes 23:04
seatek that waterbed 23:05
yeah
TimToady it might be possible to have a non-invariant constraint, a "where-if-there" or so, modulo syntactic sugar
but we'd have to weigh how much mind-space such a feature would take wrt its benefitis 23:06
"benefititis" :)
dalek c: 24bfc7d | (Francis Grizzly Smit)++ | doc/Type/Int.pod6:
Fixed a small bug in the doc
 23:07
c: d51e018 | (Francis Grizzly Smit)++ | / (2 files):
Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/doc

so that my small change to the docs can go through
seatek well, coming from someone who got irritated by it, i'd say it's not worth it, now that i understand it. but if i didn't bother to understand it, i might be raving about how awful that was to be LIED to ;)
but there's always RTFM 23:08
and its in there
TimToady maybe it can serve as a shibboleth to weed out the rage quitters :)
seatek :) :) i like that. sure :) 23:09
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TimToady much like Camelia weeds out the anti-joy curmudgeons :) 23:10
skids One of the other places we've seen complaints about this behavior is in layering subclass methods. 23:22
But the information IS available: 23:23
m: sub f (|c ($i, Int $j?)) { |c.perl.say; c[0,1].perl.say; $i.perl.say }; f(1)
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«\(1)␤(1, Nil)␤1␤»
skids Just ugly to get at.
So maybe syntactic relief for juggling Captures would help. 23:24
...starting with a way to elide the |c in the signature just to get the full arglist, if we don't already have one. 23:26
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skids |_ maybe. 23:28
But hopefully without any lexpad overhead. 23:29
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timotimo oops, what a brilliant way to fail; the GOP website just posted a bunch of articles on line, starting with the "results of tonight's VP debate" 23:33
skids lol.
timotimo another article starts with: Americans from all across the country tuned in to watch the one and only Vice Presidential debate. During the debate we helped fact check and monitor the conversation in real time @GOP. The consensus was clear after the dust settled, Mike Pence was the clear winner of the debate.
it'd be fantastic if hillary's VP read those articles and had perfect preparation for what this pence person was supposed to bring to the table 23:34
skids Well, OK, no need to hold the debate then.
timotimo Mike Pence’s top moments from the debate: 23:35
Economy
Highlighting Hillary’s scandals
SmokeMachine____ m: role A {method a(:$bla){say "A"; say "bla" if $bla}}; role B does A {method a{say "B"; nextwith(:bla)}}; class C does B {}; C.a
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«B␤»
timotimo SmokeMachine____: i think the :$bla candidate isn't in the dispatcher when you "nextwith" 23:36
so you'd want to "callwith" instead
SmokeMachine____ m: role A {method a(:$bla){say "A"; say "bla" if $bla}}; role B does A {method a{say "B"; callwith(:bla)}}; class C does B {}; C.a
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«B␤»
SmokeMachine____ timotimo: the same result... :( 23:37
timotimo hm
maybe it was another of those
oh, you don't have a multi
i thought you had a multi method there, but those are only methods
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SmokeMachine____ with multi nextwith, callwith and samewith only call the A version... 23:39
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SmokeMachine____ m: role A {multi method a(:$bla){say "A"; say "bla" if $bla}}; role B does A {multi method a{say "B"; callwith(:bla)}}; class C does B {}; C.a 23:39
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«A␤»
SmokeMachine____ m: role A {multi method a(:$bla){say "A"; say "bla" if $bla}}; role B does A {multi method a{say "B"; nextwith(:bla)}}; class C does B {}; C.a
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«A␤»
SmokeMachine____ m: role A {multi method a(:$bla){say "A"; say "bla" if $bla}}; role B does A {multi method a{say "B"; samewith(:bla)}}; class C does B {}; C.a
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«A␤»
SmokeMachine____ timotimo: ^^ 23:40
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skids Optional nameds aren't considered in MMD, no? 23:40
timotimo well, ideally you'd make :$bla!
that's right
SmokeMachine____ m: role A {method a(:$bla){say "A"; say "bla" if $bla}}; role B does A {method a{say "B"; self.A::a(:bla)}}; class C does B {}; C.a 23:41
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«B␤No concretization found for A␤ in any concretization at gen/moar/m-Metamodel.nqp line 3151␤ in any find_method_qualified at gen/moar/m-Metamodel.nqp line 1117␤ in method a at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
timotimo interesting. so that only works with classes, not with roles?
SmokeMachine____ what means concretization? 23:42
timotimo "more explicit selection" or something?
SmokeMachine____ timotimo: im not sure...
skids A class or punned class.
SmokeMachine____ thanks 23:43
is that right to that does not work? 23:44
How could I do that work?
skids Do you need A's a to ave an optiona :bla or coud it be mandatory?
23:45 skids left, skids joined
skids Grr. something turned mouse gestures on. 23:45
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SmokeMachine____ I need to call B::a and it calls A::a with a argument (that argument is optional in A) 23:46
A is JSON::Class and :bla is :skip-null
timotimo you can try "role B is A"
instead of "role B does A"
SmokeMachine____ I can't... A is JSON::Class... JSON::Class is a role... an I "is" a role? 23:47
timotimo try it
SmokeMachine____ just worked! 23:48
m: role A {method a(:$bla){say "A"; say "bla" if $bla}}; role B is A {method a{say "B"; nextwith(:bla)}}; class C does B {}; C.a
camelia rakudo-moar d8309d: OUTPUT«B␤A␤bla␤»
SmokeMachine____ thank you guys!
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timotimo YW 23:49
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shin_ Hi all... i have to solve a problem but i'm not sure how to build it with the perl6 primitives. 23:54
my %a = ('shell',True , 'weight',1 , 'origin','animal'); my %t = ('shell',False , 'weight',{ "some code that reduces the value by 5%" }); 23:55
23:55 vytas joined
shin_ %a is a collection of `attributes`, %t does a `transformation` that modifies the `attributes` that are known to it (we can call this example, 'crack the egg'). 23:55
My objective is to build a class for applying the code in %t to values on %a
in this case, %a-after-t = ('shell',False , 'weight',0.95 , 'origin','animal'); 23:56
timotimo so like { $_ * 0.95 } ?
shin_ the question: How should i model the *code* part? All code parts are meant to modify one and only one value, but can query other attributes?
and, how could i persist such thing in a file to reuse later? 23:57
lucasb_ say { $_ * 5/100 }(10)
timotimo persisting code is a lot harder
lucasb_ what do you mean by persisting? isn't it just a matter of writing this rules in the form of code in a source file? :) 23:59
shin_ should i create a SDL and a parser then? Also, the idea is also that the code inside any atribute can look 'outside', not to produce side effects, but to know other importat info to use in the transformation.

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