»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend! 🦋
Set by Zoffix on 25 July 2018.
AlexDaniel heh, 6.e doesn't even sound weird now 00:00
Zoffix Yeah, it sounds rather… sexy… 00:01
*badumpts* 00:02
Zoffix wonders which versions other than 6.e and 6.s form words when pronounced… 00:04
AlexDaniel Zoffix: I have a serious question 00:06
what's after z?
timotimo double-a? :)
the battery release
Zoffix AlexDaniel: don't worry about it, you'll be long dead :P 00:07
m: say 6.aa after 6.z
camelia No such method 'aa' for invocant of type 'Int'
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Zoffix m: say v6.aa after 6.z
camelia No such method 'z' for invocant of type 'Int'
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Zoffix m: say v6.aa after v6.z
camelia False
AlexDaniel Zoffix: even if it's one release per 2 years I may very well be alive
Zoffix AlexDaniel: dunno, it's like ~40-50 years in the future at the current pace. I don't really care what it is right now as by then the world will be very different 00:08
.oo( Perl 7 confirmed! ) :P
AlexDaniel yeah but we don't want to keep it at this pace? right?
anyway, yeah, we can figure it out later, sure :) 00:09
timotimo we'll have to have a look whether japanese is still around by then
and by "we" i mean "our descendants"
:P 00:12
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Zoffix "to make clear that only passing True (or a truthy value) makes a difference? 00:22
" — Imma keep it as is: you can pass False for example (e.g. if your setting is in a variable) 00:23
timotimo that only true/false are expected
Zoffix Ok, I'll remove $ from kv
and add it to :out-buffer since it takes a number 00:24
timotimo i'm going to bed now. thanks for your work on the brochure, on top of all the 6.d prep work over the last year or so 00:26
Zoffix \o 00:27
timotimo good * folks
simcop2387 m: say $*PERL.version 00:31
camelia v6.d
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buggable New CPAN upload: Crypt-CAST5-0.0.1.tar.gz by KAIEPI cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/K/KA/...0.1.tar.gz 00:51
Kaiepi time to implement encryption support on my telnet library 00:52
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uzl Zoffix: Few possible minor typos in the Diwali brochure 01:20
distrubtions -> distributions 01:21
01:21 lizmat left
uzl thouse -> those 01:21
as a means -> as a mean 01:22
with .= methodcall -> with .= method call
Zoffix \o/
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Zoffix uzl: thanks. I'll correct them shortly 01:23
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uzl Some repeated names I've been able to spot: 01:34
JJ Merelo <-> Juan Julián Merelo Guervós, Elena Merelo <-> elenamerelo,
lichtkind <-> Lichtkind, Pawel Murias <-> Paweł Murias,
Moray <-> MorayJ ?, afael Schipiura <-> rafaelschipiura <-> raiph ?,
Tadeusz Sośnierz <-> Tadeusz “tadzik” Sośnierz, tison <-> Tison ?,
Tzu‑Li "tison" Chen <-> Tzu‑Li Chen ?
Zoffix: ;-)!
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Zoffix Awesome. Thanks a lot. 01:35
I'm gonna leave both MorayJ and Moray since I don't really know if it's the same person or not 01:49
and raiph and rafaelschipiura are different people 01:50
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Xliff m: my @a = <1 2 3 4>; sub x { @a[$++] for ^@a.elems }; &x; &x; 02:01
camelia WARNINGS for <tmp>:
Useless use of &x in sink context (lines 1, 1)
Xliff m: my @a = <1 2 3 4>; sub x { @a[$++] for ^@a.elems }; x; x;
camelia ( no output )
Xliff m: my @a = <1 2 3 4>; sub x { @a[$++].say for ^@a.elems }; x; x;
camelia 1
2
3
4
(Any)
(Any)
(Any)
(Any)
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Zoffix And I'm gonna leave ≤≥≠ without &infix prefix because it adds an extra line and reflows the story and I'm lazy 02:13
Geth doc: 8c35ec211c | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Type/Semaphore.pod6
s/processes/threads/

Per colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...1-04#l1278		 02:14
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/Semaphore
lookatme_q Hi, I am using Cro::HTTP::Client to do some request, How can I set parameters when using '.get' method ? 02:21
Not seen that in documents :/
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Xliff lookatme_q: What parameters are you trying to set? 02:28
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lookatme_q Xliff, for example, xueqiu.com/stock/screener/screen.j...rder=desc, the order 02:32
Xliff I get a json error packet. 02:34
If you want to change the order parameter? You would just pass that as part of the URI, correct? 02:35
So... my $resp = await Cro::HTTP::Client.get("xueqiu.com/stock/screener/screen.json?order={ $order }"); 02:36
lookatme_q Xliff, so I should build the URI myself ?
Xliff Yes.
lookatme_q oh, that's ... :/ 02:37
Xliff :)
lookatme_q Xliff, Let me find if there any other module support this :)
Xliff What do you mean?
You want a module that will allow you to pass query parameters as part of the get call? 02:38
lookatme_q I was consider cro first choice :)
yeah
Xliff Cro is a good first choice.
But building URIs is generally something left to the module's consumer.
i.e.: you!
lookatme_q Hmm, I am well know of WEB things 02:39
not
okay, anyway thanks Xliff
Xliff I have some experience with Cro, so if you get stuck and really want help, let me know. 02:40
lookatme_q Xliff, I will :)
Xliff The best thing you can do in that situation is writet a sub to build the URL for you based on parameters passed.
lookatme_q yeah, I see, I will try it
Xliff so: buildRequest(%hash)
lookatme_q hmm 02:41
Xliff Will take %hash( order => desc ) and convert it to xueqiu.com/stock/screener/screen.j...order=desc
lookatme_q okay, Is the cro will encode the URI for me ? Xliff 02:42
such as replace = to something
Xliff Yes. Cro should encode the URI
If necessary.
I say should as I have never had any problems with it.
lookatme_q okay, that make sense now
Xliff OK
lookatme_q: Now if you have special chars in the value, you should encode THAT yourself. 02:44
use URI::Escape for that. 02:45
So: use URI::Escape; %hash = ( param => uri-escape('This value contains an = sign') ) 02:46
That should get you going.
lookatme_q Xliff, yeah, you are right, the error was reported 02:48
let me try the escape
Geth marketing: da0949cb61 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 27 files
Add 6.d release brochure / ID 1541379592
 02:49
03:00 molaf left
Zoffix 😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍 03:07
Announcing: Raku Perl 6 'Diwali' 6.d Specification Release: blogs.perl.org/users/zoffix_znet/20...lease.html
😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍
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Zoffix If anyone got access to our Facebook page, would be nice to post it there too 03:11
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Zoffix .tell moritz would you retween on perl6org, please? twitter.com/zoffix/status/1059282015885889536 03:13
yoleaux Zoffix: I'll pass your message to moritz.
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Zoffix ugexe, oh and I forgot to reply: but the discussion you referred to about having no intent to modify core assets with alias: that was during a discussion discussing the *unofficial* alias, which was cancelled 03:18
Geth perl6.org: d6755b2ac8 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | source/index.html
Add 6.d release to news box
 03:20
Kaiepi should there be a $*RAKU variable that acts as a proxy for $*PERL? 03:22
Zoffix No
Kaiepi ok
Zoffix We're not gonna shove "Raku" into everything right now. Just gonna let it slowly grow on us. 03:23
AlexDaniel +1
Zoffix Well. I believe I'm done with 6.d 03:24
There will be some mop up happening in upcoming weeks, like creating t/spectest.data.d and stuff, but release itself is done 03:25
Kaiepi \o/
Zoffix goes to celebrate with an appropriate amount of fun :) 03:26
Kaiepi good work
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Geth doc: jmaslak++ created pull request #2448:
Example use of whenever should use a react block		 03:59
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dduncan Is it the plan that the next release of Rakudo Star perl6 -v will report “implementing perl6.d”? 04:14
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Zoffix $ ./perl6 -v 04:22
This is Rakudo version 2018.10-76-gd3f0286c3 built on MoarVM version 2018.10-74-g2fdde4a21
implementing Perl 6.d.
dduncan: yeah, bleed already shows it ^
dduncan Thank you. 04:23
Zoffix dduncan: oh, Rakudo Star.
dduncan: I think the next Rakudo Star is for 2018.10, which is still on v6.c.
dduncan: and it's not yet known whether there would be an out-of-schedule Rakudo Star 2018.11, but you could always install a compiler only too 04:24
dduncan Yes, my short term use cases for Perl 6 prefer something stable and easy to I use Rakudo Star.
Zoffix huggable: star
huggable Zoffix, Estimated Rakudo Star releases: .01, .04, .07 & .10
dduncan Recent history showed it seems Star isn’t on a fixed 3 month schedule anymore.
I’m only just starting to get into Perl 6 development again in the near future, currently aided by Learning Perl 6 to help remind me what changed over the last decade, and at this point I’m inclined to make my efforts cite 6.d as a hard dependency. 04:26
Since a “stable” 6.d release seems imminent now. 04:27
Zoffix dduncan: the spec already got released 04:28
dduncan: and on 2018-11-18 Rakudo Compiler with 6.d will be released, and after that 2019.01 Rakudo Star might get released with 6.d lang, though if there is a volunteer to do it, there might be an out-of-schedule 2018.11 Rakudo Star release, just to get 6.d to Star users faster. 04:29
dduncan I’m just saying the lowest barrier to entry will be a Rakudo Star that implements the final 6.d spec and that will run code declaring it uses 6.d without error. Although if a much earlier Rakudo Compiler will do the same thing I might try using that first. 04:30
Zoffix :)
dduncan: what OS are you using?
dduncan Currently Mac OS 10.13.6 High Sierra. I find the .dmg Star releases extremely useful.
Zoffix Ah :) 04:31
dduncan I have regularly compiled Perl 5 from source in the past, and may or may not have done that with Moar or Rakudo sometime in the past, but in the last few years I’ve been content to just take the Star releases when they came out, as that was cutting edge enough. 04:32
Zoffix Cool :)
dduncan My main intended use case in the short term is to write a port of my Muldis Reference Engine database language VM in it, versions that also do or will exist in several other languages, the very first ended up being .Net Core / C#. This seemed the right time as, while I want to and did previously support helping find bugs in Perl 6 implementations, right now I’m just wanting to focus on my own bugs and have the Perl 6 be relatively sol 04:40
and production ready, as much as other common languages. I believe we’ve reached that point now when Perl 6 can be more vigorously used in production like anything else, and a good time for me to jump back in.
Zoffix Yeah, totally. 04:41
dduncan I will also mostly be referring to Raku as the implementation language in its documentation, now that Larry has blessed it. I will also still use the name Perl 6 there enough for less savvy people to know they are 2 names for the same language. 04:44
Zoffix \o/
dduncan Is there a plan for releases to include a “raku” binary alongside the “perl6” one anytime soon eg officially as part of 6.d support so that people can easily refer to either in their code? 04:46
Eg, in a shebang line.
Zoffix No immediate plans. 04:47
dduncan Okay, well that’s less important anyway.
Xliff What does it mean when you get this error: 04:54
say "V: { $gv.string }";
Oops. Not that one.
Cannot resolve caller AUTOGEN(GTK::Image: Str, GTK::Compat::Types::GValue); the following candidates
match the type but require mutable arguments:
(GTK::Widget: $name, $value is rw, *%_)
04:55 proc left 04:57 Zoffix left
dduncan I’m looking for opinions: For someone / myself who were to start implementing a programming language in the Perl 6 / NQP / MoarVM ecosystem such that it is conceptually a sibling language to Perl 6, is there any good reason today to write the implementation in terms of NQP source like Rakudo is, or would that not confer any benefits over writing it just in higher level Perl 6? Or would perhaps writing it by default in Perl 6 but some 05:07
parts in NQP be best, as Rakudo itself seems to be? I’m operating under the assumption here that NQP is the recommended common denominator here when we want a single implementation to have the kind of VM portability that Rakudo has.
Xliff dduncan: I would start off writing it in whatever you feel comfortale with, until it is complete. 05:08
Once you have that reference implementation, it can then be boiled down to NQP.
dduncan Fair enough. Currently the first version is in C# as that’s what I’m most comfortable with for the purpose. I planned to have it fully functional there before porting. 05:09
Xliff So if you want to do pure Perl6, a mix or pure NQP, it really doesn't matter.
Yes. That's probably for the best.
dduncan Thank you for your feedback, sounds good.
Xliff It's easiest to convert from C# to Perl6 and from there down to NQP.
dduncan Right.
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jmerelo releasable6: status 06:06
releasable6 jmerelo, Next release in ≈12 days and ≈12 hours. 4 blockers. 0 out of 77 commits logged
jmerelo, Details: gist.github.com/2e298534a60fd9a7a4...78afd7f2cf
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Xliff When you initialize a repr('CStruct') value with .new, is it zero-filled? 06:19
m: class A is repr('CStruct') { has uint64 $.a; has uint64 $.b; has uint64 $.c; }; my $a = A.new; say $a.a; $a.b; $a.c 06:20
camelia 0
Xliff m: class A is repr('CStruct') { has uint64 $.a; has uint64 $.b; has uint64 $.c; }; my $a = A.new; say $a.a; say $a.b; say $a.c 06:21
camelia 0
0
0
Geth doc: 8a8289e2e8 | (Ben Davies)++ | doc/Type/IO/Socket/Async.pod6
Document async socket .native-descriptor

Fixes #2397
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/IO::Socket::Async
Geth doc: 1f2867f13b | (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Type/IO/Socket/Async.pod6
Merge pull request #2447 from Kaiepi/async-introspection

Document async socket .native-descriptor
doc: cf7056ff94 | (Luis F. Uceta)++ | doc/Language/optut.pod6
Properly align comments and add a few more examples
 06:22
doc: 47157fd624 | (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/optut.pod6
Merge pull request #2445 from uzluisf/master

Properly align comments and add few more examples
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/optut
AlexDaniel squashable6: log 2018-12-03 06:25
squashable6 AlexDaniel, Invalid date format
AlexDaniel squashable6: log 2018-12
squashable6 AlexDaniel, I cannot recognize this command. See wiki for some examples: github.com/perl6/whateverable/wiki/Squashable
AlexDaniel squashable6: status 2018-12-03 06:26
squashable6 AlexDaniel, Invalid date format
AlexDaniel o_o
squashable6: status 2018-11-03 06:28
squashable6 AlexDaniel, Log and stats: gist.github.com/bec4d44f28a9c1950f...b34294836c
AlexDaniel I guess time machines were not invented yet
time travel I mean 06:29
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Xliff AlexDaniel: Do you know why this error pops up? "Cannot resolve caller AUTOGEN(GTK::Image: Str, GTK::Compat::Types::GValue); the following candidates match the type but require mutable arguments:" 06:32
What does mutability have to do with method matching for multis?
jmerelo AlexDaniel: not excellent, but not bad either...
Xliff: some types are not mutable, I guess... If they are modified in the call, you need to use a mutable type. Str is not mutable, FWIW 06:33
Xliff OK. So that means one of the arguments was somehow immutable and I just need to figure out which one? 06:34
jmerelo Xliff: I'd bet on Str
Xliff: I mean, Str is immutable.
Xliff Well... no... the Str in that method was never touched.
OK. It gives me something to look into. Thanks. 06:35
jmerelo Xliff: that's not the thing. The _type_ is immutable.
AlexDaniel Xliff: uhhhh you can file a ticket I guess… of course it would be much more awesome if it said which argument was not mutable
Xliff Yes. That's the problem with that error!
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Xliff I will circle back tomorrow, I guess. 06:36
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jmerelo Xliff: g'night :-) 06:36
AlexDaniel jmerelo: so… 06:37
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jmerelo AlexDaniel: it was a tough weekend. We'll try better next time. 06:40
AlexDaniel jmerelo: can you pick a winner? I mean, if we look at the amount of commits or closed issues, then you have the most, that's true. But then the playing field is a bit not level because you've been working on the doc repo for so much (including grant work) 06:41
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jmerelo AlexDaniel: as I said, not eligible. Who's second? 06:42
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AlexDaniel it's hard to tell 06:43
jmerelo AlexDaniel: let me see 06:44
AlexDaniel I see chsanch who did two PRs 06:46
jmerelo AlexDaniel: Zoffix would go second, I guess. And then, in raw commits, I would say MasterDuke.
AlexDaniel and then Zoffix who did a lot of stuff 06:47
jmerelo AlexDaniel: but they are still there, they have not been merged. There's some work to do.
AlexDaniel (I'm not listing in any particular order)
jmerelo: same but sorted alphabetically: gist.github.com/AlexDaniel/16f5084...79e66524e6 06:48
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jmerelo AlexDaniel: Zoffix and Coke are the ones with the most commits. Maybe Coke? 06:50
AlexDaniel jmerelo: github.com/perl6/doc/commits?author=coke
jmerelo AlexDaniel: Let's go for Coke...
AlexDaniel but but, hold on :) 06:51
I can't quite figure out which of these commits were during the squashathon 06:52
because squashable6-- doesn't log the commit title 06:53
jmerelo Coke did 7 during the squashathon
AlexDaniel and Zoffix did 10 06:54
jmerelo AlexDaniel: let's give it then to Zoffix. I didn't pick that one because maybe he's not eligible either. But whatever. 06:55
AlexDaniel why not?
jmerelo Same reason I'm not.
But, as I say, whatever. He's done good work, let's go with that.
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AlexDaniel please someone make 100 PRs next time! 06:59
jmerelo AlexDaniel++
AlexDaniel eh, I'm still looking at contributions… 07:01
jmerelo AlexDaniel: we should maybe do this automatically. Exclude non-eligible people, and maybe have a scoreboard during the squashathon 07:04
AlexDaniel I disagree that there's a lot of people to exclude :)
in fact I'd prefer rakudo devs to participate more than they do 07:05
jmerelo AlexDaniel: I'm not say there's a lot. Just that it's a non-zero measure set.
AlexDaniel there's one thing though. The text used to say that it'll go to someone who makes most/best PRs
and I'm thinking… chsanch did two, one was merged and closed a ticket, another one was not merged but I'm fine with that 07:06
jmerelo AlexDaniel: to encourage those who don't have a commit bit...
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AlexDaniel sure but those who have a commit bit are not very encouraged, unfortunately :) 07:07
jmerelo AlexDaniel: let's do the scoreboard and then we decide. It's not as easy as just tally the number of commits.
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El_Che so, who gets the Golden Ticket? ;) 07:23
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marcusr zoffix++ # nice brochure 08:32
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AlexDaniel ok, it's subjective, but it has to be :) 08:53
chsanch: you win! \o/
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AlexDaniel weekly: last week: gist.github.com/25037db08414c899ab...824efa3ac0 08:53
notable6 AlexDaniel, Noted!
AlexDaniel weekly: oops, don't use that ↑ 08:54
Xliff marcusr: Where can I find that?
notable6 AlexDaniel, Noted!
AlexDaniel weekly: last week: gist.github.com/002b2bd6d980ab2842...83cd1f9c54
notable6 AlexDaniel, Noted!
AlexDaniel weekly: last month: gist.github.com/c7695b48ea836b80ec...a11ccb6ab7
notable6 AlexDaniel, Noted!
marcusr Xliff: marketing.perl6.org/id/1541379592/pdf_digital ?
Xliff marcusr: Thanks.
AlexDaniel weekly: Another Squashathon happened. The prize goes to chsanch. Next squashathon on 2018-12-03. 08:56
notable6 AlexDaniel, Noted!
AlexDaniel weekly: I'm also accepting ideas for upcoming squashathons (e.g. the topic for the one in December is not announced yet). github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day 08:58
notable6 AlexDaniel, Noted!
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scimon Hi everyone. Back from my honeymoon. What did I miss? 09:00
Xliff scimon: marketing.perl6.org/id/1541379592/pdf_digital 09:01
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marcusr btw, if 6d was released, shouldn't perl6.org/downloads/ point to it? 09:02
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marcusr oh wait, this was just the spec release. 09:03
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marcusr nvm 09:03
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sena_kun timotimo, ping? 09:05
AlexDaniel marcusr: yes, rakudo 2018.11 will be released later this month 09:07
timotimo sena_kun: pong 09:16
sena_kun timotimo, about your slack question: second one(Altai-ch) can be removed. :) 09:17
El_Che I don't understand how people can be so unprofessional: twitter.com/nxadm/status/1059375099659382787/ 09:22
If conferences depends on tantrums of a single individual it says a lot of the sad state of affairs 09:23
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El_Che hi woolfy 09:25
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woolfy "FREE AT LAST FREE AT LAST FINALLY PERL IS FREE AT LAST makeameme.org/meme/free-at-last-5bdf36?d_ 09:27
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El_Che hi lizmat 09:27
lizmat o/ 09:28
woolfy Thank you for making this possible. Thank you for destroying the work of many years, trying to build some widespread knowledge about the name "Perl 6". People are now stopping to use "Perl 6" and using "Raku".
So, yes, I just left the Perl 5 community, because nobody stepped up against using a new made meme by Karen Etheridge, using Martin Luther King, using his texts that were aimed at white oppression of black people. 09:29
Anybody with a shred of knowledge of history, knows that you just don't use Martin Luther King this way.
And Perl 5 people who accuse Perl 6 people this way of oppressing Perl 5, subduing Perl 5... well, it is nasty. 09:30
I am so tremendously angry, even after a bad night's sleep, you have no idea how angry I am with Zoffix and Larry and Karen Etheridge and ribasushi and all those people who did this and what followed after it. 09:31
I am no longer supporting Perl 5.
I wanted to stop supporting Perl 6 too, but lizmat stopped me.
But this, makeameme.org/meme/free-at-last-5bdf36?d_ , this is the result of the work of Zoffix, and I am angry as hell. Did you really not see this coming? And there's more stuff like this, and it will get worse, and it is bad marketing, and it is very bad for Perl 6 and for Perl as a whole. 09:32
El_Che woolfy: calm down, order your thoughts, write a blogposts, review it and post it after the anger has diminished. I have trouble getting what is your opinion and what's somene leses (specially the p5 part)
woolfy Claudio Ramirez: I am calm, and my thoughts are ordered, and I do not need this advise from you. You have said some nasty things the last couple of days and I am damn angry at you too. 09:33
El_Che Am I nasty? wow 09:34
ufobat i think the MLK picture is indeed not okay
El_Che Aren't you confusing opinions with nastyness?
s/y/i
I make an effort *not* to be nasty 09:35
woolfy Well done.
lizmat I think you misunderstand the depth of the insult that the MLK meme means to woolfy (or me, for that matter)
El_Che lizmat: I don't see what I have to do with the MLK meme which I have never seen in my life until woolfy joined 09:36
lizmat still has to backlog
El_Che lizmat, woolfy: I feel fine to be confronted with what I say or do. But I don't see the connection here, and I honnestly I don't see my "nastiness". 09:37
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woolfy You are right, I am too angry to be here. 09:38
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CIAvash About the conference: I think what TimToady said in the past is relevant colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...1-08#l2242 colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...1-08#l2260 09:47
El_Che CIAvash: yes, that's how it feels like 09:48
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dduncan What’s the cause of the formatting of this message? colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...11-03#l276 Something so important, why is “TimToady” indented into the message column rather than being in the left column where the speaker name of the message normally is. It almost makes it look like it was a quotation rather than a direct post. 09:56
moritz dduncan: seems like a /me action 09:57
yoleaux 03:13Z <Zoffix> moritz: would you retween on perl6org, please? twitter.com/zoffix/status/1059282015885889536
AlexDaniel test test
yeah colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...11-05#l472
dduncan Yeah so the /me caused that formatting. But what does it mean semantically? Why do that rather than speaking normally? Is it like a bookmark to highlight more important comments? 10:00
AlexDaniel dduncan: you can use it when you do something. Compare “dduncan wonders why the formatting is different” and “<dduncan> I wonder why the formatting is different” 10:05
dduncan I see, its about talking about yourself in the third person.
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AlexDaniel yeah 10:05
you explained it better than I did :) 10:06
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dduncan That makes sense. Still, for those not used to it, the formatting almost made it look like the quote was someone else saying Larry said it rather than Larry saying it himself, seeming less authentic. 10:06
Eg I’d hate for it to be cited given the current arguments about Raku, someone raising, Larry didn’t actually say that. 10:07
But that’s probably just me. 10:08
timotimo at least weechat displays the names of people on the right-hand-side of the nickname/message separator, though in my case it also puts a * on the left 10:09
and the name being colored in hopefully also gives a hint to make it a bit clearer
Skarsnik timotimo, where is your profiler? x) *should favorite some stuff sometime*
lizmat colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...11-05#l427 10:12
tobs` Zoffix: in the brochure, under "Upgrade info": "The ChangeLog on the pages that follow—where possible—gives details on the alternative code to use," <- has a trailing comma
lizmat El_Che: ^^^
calling someone who has a. written the most Perl 6 books, b. has organized the most Perl events *EVER*, of which *TWO* YAPC::Europe's almost single-handedly in the past 10:15
timotimo Skarsnik: github.com/timo/moarperf
marcusr lizmat: twitter.com/perlcon/status/1059353130129874944 this is pretty childish :(
lizmat because no group in the Perl community could get it together that year
timotimo i'm looking forward to a star from you :)
lizmat also: having been involved with organizing 2 YAPC::EU myself 10:16
I can understand how uncertainty about the language can make you think twice about risking money for such an event 10:17
Skarsnik it will get lost on my 200 tabs in chrome!
timotimo lizmat: do we know who made the tasteless MLK meme?
lizmat yes: Karen Etheridge, one of the p5p core members
timotimo Skarsnik: maybe i should register a fresh & fancy domain
Skarsnik na it's fine xD 10:18
timotimo i don't think i know anything about her, i have no clue whether she'd just selected MLK on a whim or actually meant anything more by it than "he's a guy who talks about freedom a lot" 10:19
Skarsnik the real question: what is the root password of my vps xD 10:20
tobs` Zoffix: The heading "ChangeLog(cont)" on the *first* changelog page shouldn't have "(cont)", should it? 10:21
marcusr It's a meme, so there's lots of variants of this picture www.google.com/search?q=free+at+la...kck4aQm6M:
tadzik huh, prompt wasn't in 6.c? Never noticed :)
timotimo marcusr: of course, but when you make one for yourself, you'll inevitably be confronted with what the original picture meant, i think? 10:22
tadzik I think it's one of the cases when someone often exposed to something does not take it at face-value anymore 10:23
timotimo that's quite possible
tadzik as in: regular memers don't even see MLK in there, he's the form, not the... treść 10:24
how do you english that without coffee...
form, not the actual content?
I had a similar conversation about violence in computer games yesterday :)
dduncan I think the MLK meme is in bad taste and it should be retracted.
timotimo gotta go! 10:26
n'est ceci un martìn
timotimo knows approximately 0 frenchs 10:27
Skarsnik like most people that are not french ^^ 10:28
Juerd Skarsnik: I don't know about other countries, but at least in the Netherlands it's common to receive some French in school 10:37
I never liked these classes because it didn't seem like a language I'd ever use, but it's proven practical to be able to read at least some things. 10:38
AlexDaniel here we had to choose between German and French
Juerd I mostly still don't understand why we had to learn moisonneuse-batteuse though.
The words we had to learn were so incredibly random :( 10:39
Skarsnik it's like Spannish in Europe, it's mostly useless unless you go to Spain
Juerd Skarsnik: Knowing a little bit of French has proven useful mostly for understanding French people who (try to) speak English :D 10:40
Skarsnik haha true
huf it helps you pronounce the french names you encounter in books though
Juerd Deciphering the accent, understanding why they use a different word order
Skarsnik We (french) are so bad in English
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huf my mother was devastated when she found out that jacques is not an exotic name at all 10:42
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Skarsnik it's mainly because English is teached very academicly, you learn lot of grammar rules and such and barerly actually write/speak English 10:42
Juerd Skarsnik: That's how French is taught here, and indeed, that doesn't work :)
I remember terms such as plusque parfait, but have completely forgotten what they are.
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ribasushi_ a note for posterity, as woolfy mentioned me in the same line as ether: I was one of the first ( 2 mins in ) to downvote Karen's braindead comment, and am pretty sure she doesn't even realize the irony of her expressing an opinion on "problems community is unable to solve by itself" 10:47
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ribasushi_ I also do not condone `Raku` and facepalmed about it enough on twitter, so no I am not among "those people who did this" 10:48
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El_Che lizmat: no one is saying the guy has done nothing (I wrote how a nice gesture it was to organize the event when there where no other candidate). The fact remains that he's making a threat to take his ball home because of something he doesn't like. "Unprofessional" is the nicer way of putting it. 10:50
Skarsnik I am sure Raku will be sell as a fork of Perl 6 x)
I am so annoyed to have this type of error : Cannot locate native library 'libssl.so' 10:51
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tadzik I think it remains to be seen what Raku will end up being, if anything at all in practice 10:51
Skarsnik it's not like I made a way to pass an ABI version so we don't have to install devel package :( 10:52
tadzik and truth of the matter is, >90% of the perl community don't really care. Hell, I am among the few who even write Perl 6 sometimes and I changes little about my life. Putting the whole conference in jeopardy becuase of a phantom threat (imho) is, like El_Che said, unprofessional
which is always surprising to see from people who've been extremely professional before 10:53
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dduncan We really need to wait for Larry to come back from his vacation, digest the fallout of his “Raku, final answer" declaration, and for him to post a thoughtful response to the community addressing people's concerns. I look forward to seeing that. 10:58
Skarsnik Does the OpenSSL module work? 11:00
===> Testing: OpenSSL:ver<0.1.21>:auth<github:sergot>
# NETWORK_TESTING was not set
Cannot locate symbol 'sk_num' in native library 'libssl.so'
El_Che dduncan: I just see 1 guy throwing a tantrum. I don't see pitchforks
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dduncan El_Che: Which comment are you referring to? 11:05
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dduncan I said at least 2 things you might have been replying to. 11:05
pmurias El_Che: more people have been annoyed by the alias, so we have real drawbacks of something that will most likely have very little benefit 11:06
dduncan But both of my comments referred to things multiple people people had big issues with.
The MLK thing should be retracted. The alias thing Larry just needs to explain his intentions better. 11:07
Or rather, I think he already explained the alias thing, basically he’s blessing a specific alias, and its up to the community members to use either as they wish. So its more that I’m hoping he will comment further on how people actually reacted to the “final answer” announcement. 11:09
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kensanata Skarsnik: From my README: "When installing dependencies using zef as shown, you could be running into an OpenSSL issue even if you have the correct development libraries installed. On Debian, you need libssl-dev but apparently versions 1.1.0f and 1.1.0g won't work. See issue #34. You could decide to ignore SSL support and opt to have a web server act as a proxy which provides SSL." 11:15
yoleaux 29 Oct 2018 18:02Z <AlexDaniel> kensanata: how is it going? I wanna switch something to oddmuse6 and I wonder if that'd be a good idea any time soon
kensanata Skarsnik: And: "In which case there is a terrible workaround available: run zef install --force-test IO::Socket::Async::SSL before you zef install XXX." Heh. 11:16
Skarsnik: and issue #34 is github.com/jnthn/p6-io-socket-asyn.../issues/34
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El_Che dduncan: not on desk atm, but in short the freezing/killing yapc:eu 11:22
I haven't commented on the (stupid) meme or about people having issues with the alias 11:25
dduncan ok 11:28
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Zoffix woolfy, a quote from my letter to Larry: "However, I believe such an alias has a more immediate application closer to home, by improving the wellbeing of the existing community and the interactions of its members with other programming communities, including the Perl 5 community." 11:35
woolfy, the direct result I've seen so far is prominent Perl 5 community members, some of whom were so vile in the past I had them blocked, have shown support for Raku language. I think that's tremendous progress. The only "destruction" I witnessed is you saying you no longer support Perl 5, lizmat admitting that sister language narative is incompatible with her, and Andrew making a fool out of himself by 11:37
blocking YAPC::Europe and making strange demands.
woofly: why are you guys doing it? No doom that you predicted showed up, so you decided to fuck shit up yourself?
woofly: you can be angry with me all you want, but may I remind you the final decision was rendered by Larry. Saying you're angree with me because we now have alias discredits Larry's ability to make sound decisions. 11:38
tobs: thanks for the corrections, but I think all minor stuff will stay in it, as it's already been "published" 11:39
tobs: incorrect info would be changed, like if authors were wrong 11:40
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Skarsnik kensanata, thx ^^ 11:43
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pmurias Zoffix: Perl 6 haters liking a decision isn't progress of any kind 11:47
sacomo hi all
tadzik hello sacomo 11:48
pmurias Zoffix: a lot of them are celebrating because they want Perl 6 dead
sacomo hi tadzik 11:49
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sacomo for the record, I like raku. are there any other languages, historical, that have an alias that became the common label for its language? 11:53
for the record, I like 'Perl 6' too
marcusr pmurias: as someone who has been blocked by zoffix, that's definitively not the case for me. 11:54
tadzik I think it's easy to label people as haters, but worthwhile to think about where their hate is rooted 11:56
lizmat PSA: there will be no Perl 6 Weekly written by me this week 11:57
I don't think I would be doing a good job this week 11:58
tadzik :(
sacomo :(
tadzik if they want perl 6 dead because they see its name as something inhibiting their own progress, you may (and I do) consider it to be a silly reason to hate something, they are humans just like us who have certain goals they want to achieve
lizmat I think I'm goig to spend those 6-8 hours a week that it costs me on something a bit more rewarding
tadzik if we can help them achieve those goals while taking the haters out of them, we all win 11:59
sacomo lizmat, is there anything I can help with?
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tadzik lizmat: I'm sad to hear about no weekly, but I hope you have a wonderful, enjoyable day instead, you really deserve it :) 12:00
Zoffix pmurias: it is tremendous progress, as now our language promotion efforts don't need to also counteract their dispromotion
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Zoffix I'm glad to hear about the weekly. As useful as it is, it's too much work and will get even worse the more popular the language becomes. Make it a Monthly. 12:01
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Zoffix pmurias: you're stopping too soon in that description: "they want Perl 6 dead… because its mere name implies the language they make money with is dead". If we eliminate the reason for them wanting it dead, it's progress. 12:02
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sacomo tadzik, Zoffix, I agree. If some people are getting hung up over the "Perl" part of Perl 6, well, now they have one less roadblock to adoption. If they are just hating to hate, so be it, a different name isn't going to win them over. 12:02
Zoffix pmurias: and here's the evidence to go with the claim: colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...11-04#l856 12:03
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lizmat sacomo: no, thank you for offerinng 12:04
tadzik sacomo: the way I see it, we get so rallied up about the name that it's distracting us from actual progress
sacomo lizmat, np, ping me anytime
tadzik yes, there are people who hate the name and the language,but there are also people who are insterested in what the language *does* 12:05
Zoffix brought up the example of people to whom they have to explain that the language they use is not dead, and it's not that old Perl, and it's not that vapourware because it exists etc
sacomo tadzik, I agree. My Japanese wife likes raku, btw. She said it sounds fun (楽)
tadzik which is relevant and I can relate
then again, I often talk to people who say "oh, so Perl is not dead? Cool! What cool things have been written in it recently?" 12:06
and all I can show them is CPAN which literally only Perl people care about because it's building blocks and not actual tools
marcusr tadzik: there are actually several cool newish perl projects.
pmurias Zoffix: an alias doesn't eliminate the reason it's still Perl 6 with a "Raku" nickname
tadzik meanwhile I get dozens of people whom I teach python (yeah :/), who only want to learn it because of that jupyter thing being cool 12:07
sacomo Zoffix, I am glad that you persisted with this language topic. I was following from the sidelines, and for me it personally doesn't matter what name is used, but it is obvious that for some people it was a sticking point. The new 6.d announcement pdf looks great too.
tadzik I think a polished product would do more good to our language than any name can
and so if we can stop distracting ourselves with naming and just direct the efforts to building cool shit, we win
Zoffix sacomo: thanks. 12:08
tadzik nobody mistakes C# for a C++ replacement, there isn't even a discussion. They just both independently build stuff, and built things are unmistakable: they show things as alive and healthy
tadzik bbl 12:09
marcusr github.com/trending/perl?since=monthly like diff so fancy, and xattacker, and Trizen (Arch package manager github.com/trizen/trizen). One of my nix friends (who's not a perl person) linked me github.com/thoughtpolice/eris/blob...readme.org as well, 12:10
Would love to see more cool stuff at github.com/trending/perl6 too. 12:11
sacomo One thing I noticed about devs here in Japan is that Perl-hate isn't really a thing, like seems to be in other parts of the world. The issue here is that a lot of the devs are just using other languages for their day-to-day stuff. When I bring up Perl 6 here it usually triggers sincere interest. 12:12
Zoffix Well, with 6.d outta the door, I think it's time for a little vacay for me
Fallout 76, here I come \o/ 12:13
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sacomo Zoffix, how is F76? 12:13
pmurias sacomo: I think the situtation in different parts of the world is different 12:19
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pmurias sacomo: I'm from Poland and Perl seems to be used very little (most people encounter it rarely if in legacy things that are being rewritten) 12:21
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sacomo pmurias: do you think talking about 'raku' in Poland will go further than 'Perl 6'? 12:22
pmurias sacomo: hard to see because people are diverse, but personally I don't see how to convince people to try Rakuo 12:27
when trying to talk to people about Perl 6 I tried to mostly present as a community of (old) experienced Perlers building something cool without the baggage of the past 12:30
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sacomo yeah, I think that is really all there is too it. Just build new stuff with it, show it off, people will come around. 12:36
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Geth doc: coke assigned to JJ Issue sample in doc/Type/IO/Socket/Async.pod6 doesn't compile github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2449
7cc50f163d | Coke++ | doc/Language/rb-nutshell.pod6

passes the update xt/example-compilation.t which now runs code inside item blocks.
Note that one of the perl6 snippets was incorrect, and needed a whitespace fix to compile		 12:41
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synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/rb-nutshell
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Geth mu: 0be8a247df | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | misc/perl6advent-2018/schedule
Remove my Raku articles

I'm on vacation and won't have the time to participate in Advent		 13:11
lizmat .tell chenyf nice cheet sheet twitter.com/ohmyfannnnn/status/105...7318656001 13:15
yoleaux lizmat: I'll pass your message to chenyf.
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El_Che lizmat: a little time off the weekly sound indeed like a good idea. Have fun, you deserve it for all those hours you've invested in the weekly! 13:29
lizmat thank you
Geth doc/6d: 4 commits pushed by Coke++ 13:40
doc: b8d66da7c4 | Coke++ | doc/Type/Signature.pod6
Allow compilation of lang-specific examples
doc: b38472ef2f | Coke++ | 8 files
Remove explicit perl version, not mentioned in text
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/Signature
doc: f2aff4be11 | Coke++ | 3 files
Explicit version mentioned in docs, allow compilation
doc: coke++ created pull request #2450:
remove PREVIEW from examples		 13:41
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lizmat www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/VanRoyChapter.pdf # wonder how many paradigms you can do in Perl 6 14:07
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[Coke] just tried to go to window 9, and typed "/win 98". 14:24
moritz [Coke]: and irssi responded with a big "WAT?" :D 14:25
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tobs` My browser has trouble performing a TLS handshake with docs.perl6.org. Anyone else? 14:37
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APic tobs`: Here the Connection just times out, with http as well as https 14:39
So yes, i cannot access the Site
moritz cannot connect via SSH either :(
will need to reboot through the HV
lizmat works (again) 14:41
moritz aye
thanks for the report, tobs`
tobs` my pleasure 14:45
buggable New CPAN upload: Math-FFT-Libfftw3-0.0.3.tar.gz by FRITH modules.perl6.org/dist/Math::FFT::L...cpan:FRITH 14:51
Geth doc: taboege++ created pull request #2451:
Fix typo and link in Glossary
doc: 8180f21e7b | (Tobias Boege)++ | doc/Language/glossary.pod6
Correct typo 'an historical' → 'a historical'
 14:57
doc: 9936c989aa | (Tobias Boege)++ | doc/Language/glossary.pod6
Fix link to Abstract class
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/glossary
doc: 62ab82f460 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/glossary.pod6
Merge pull request #2451 from taboege/misc-fixes

Fix typo and link in Glossary
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hahainternet the logo on the front page of the new marketing dot, made with paint blobs, is really something beautiful 15:25
s/dot/doc 15:26
SmokeMachine m: class :: does Sequence { method iterator {}}.does: Iterable # wht Sequence doesn't do Iterable
camelia ( no output )
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SmokeMachine m: say class :: does Sequence { method iterator {}}.does: Iterable # wht Sequence doesn't do Iterable 15:26
camelia False
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SmokeMachine m: say class :: does Sequence does Iterable { method iterator {} }.new 15:30
camelia Type check failed in binding to parameter '$iter'; expected Iterator but got Nil (Nil)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
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Geth doc: b0fc9eece1 | (Joelle Maslak)++ | 2 files
Example use of whenever should use a react block
 15:52
doc: 631735d28e | (Joelle Maslak)++ | doc/Type/IO/Socket/Async.pod6
Remove unused variable
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/IO::Socket::Async
doc: f20a2a2e61 | (Joelle Maslak)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | 2 files
Merge pull request #2448 from jmaslak/wrap-whenever-i-s-a-listen

Example use of whenever should use a react block
SmokeMachine For som reason, my Red::ResultSeq does Iterable, has a iterator method that returns an Iterator, but it doesnt iterate on a `for`. What could make that? 15:56
cono SmokeMachine: I've done it like this: github.com/cono/p6-algorithm-heap-...y.pm6#L178 16:03
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SmokeMachine cono: thanks 16:09
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dakkar Hi. I was looking at github.com/perlpilot/p6-IO-Notific...cursive.pm and I was surprised that a `whenever` block will find the `supply` block via the call chain, instead of lexically 16:11
is that documented anywhere?
docs.perl6.org/language/concurrency#whenever says «The whenever keyword can be used in supply blocks or in react blocks» and usually I read "in blocks" to mean lexically, not dynamically 16:12
(now that I think of it, gather/take works the same way) 16:13
(but at least docs.perl6.org/language/control#gather/take says «gather/take is scoped dynamically»)
timotimo i do think on v6.d a whenever outside of the supply block will asplode 16:14
jnthn dakkar: The docs are correct as of 6.d: from then on, it's only lexically that works
dakkar oooh
tadzik hm, having two numbers, like 4:30, can I easily make a duration of 4 hours and 30 minutes?
jnthn It was accidentally more liberal in 6.c, which frustrated some significant optimizations.
tadzik and by duration I mean Duration :)
dakkar jnthn: good to know! so IO::Notification::Recursive would have to be rewritten with explicit taps
tadzik it sounds like it'd be a good fit for it, though as I look at the docs I may prefer to roll something out myself
timotimo tadzik: reverse it and use Z* :) 16:15
tadzik :o 16:16
dakkar jnthn: this www.thenautilus.net/cgit/Ultramari...canner.pm6 is how I solved the "watch directories, recursively" problem. I suspect that it works only because the GC never runs in my tests
tadzik timotimo: well, I kind of did that (but without Z*) and got myself the int of minutes :) 16:17
dakkar in particular, I fear that I'm not retaining the supplies returned by .watch() (or the taps) anywhere
tadzik which is fitting, since I apparently already have a multi that formats those too
dakkar are my fears correct? how would I write a test to catch similar problems? 16:18
jnthn dakkar: The problem with not retaining the taps is actually that you never close them, and so things live forever and are never collected... 16:21
I strongly suggest using `supply`/`whenever` for such things
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dakkar oh, so active taps are not collected? 16:21
jnthn No, because they are held onto "form the top", if you like 16:22
dakkar wow, there's way too much I don't know about the memory model / gc part of perl6
jnthn Bit tied up with debugging something at the moment but here's how I did the recursive watching thing: github.com/croservices/cro/blob/ma...s.pm6#L159
dakkar I should have known that Cro would contain answers ☺
thank you for the explanation and pointers 16:23
jnthn Well, Supply is the dual of an iterable, so most things work "the other way around". With iterable things, if you lose interest you just let go and the GC eats it. With a supply, you need to unsubscribe to stop the listener or whatever at the top of the chain.
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jnthn It's not that they're GC special, just that they're being held on to by the event loop 16:24
dakkar also, a bit I had misunderstood: "`whenever` must be lexically inside `supply`" does not prevent using `whenever` inside subs, as long as they're declared iside the `supply` (in other words, `sub {}` does not break "lexical containment", and why should it?)
jnthn Correct. :) 16:29
Also note that sub foo() { whenever $blah { foo() } } is not actually recursive, because `whenever` is async :) 16:30
dakkar that too 16:31
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[Coke] This function is mostly identical to the C library sprintf and printf functions. The only difference between the two functions is that sprintf returns a string while the printf function writes to a filehandle. sprintf returns a Str, not a literal. 16:47
from Str.sprintf docs. I'm thinking it seems silly to say a method isn't returning a literal.
kybr i'm reading through the diwali release pamphlet. we can call it raku, perl 6, or raku perl 6. cool. i noticed some mentions of QuantHash, which i have not encountered before. i'm trying to fine examples that use it and a more detailed description than whats on the docs page. link? 16:48
jmerelo [Coke]: right. And printf also returns something, only we don't use it. how can you even return a literal? 16:49
kybr: if it's not in the docs page or it's no enough, that's where it should be. Please raise an issue.
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tadzik also, I made a thing in Perl 6! 16:51
github.com/tadzik/work
I wonder how complicated it is these days to turn it into a module 16:52
jmerelo tadzik: congrats!
tadzik: not really much
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SmokeMachine that's not working... I have a Iterable $bla that `for $bla` do not iterate... but `for $bla.Seq `and `for |$bla` does... :( 16:52
tadzik still just META.json and put it in perl6/ecosystem?
probably more fancy if I want it on CPAN too 16:53
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jmerelo tadzik: probably CPAN is best. There's some documentation that helps you, and stuff like App::Mi6 that can help you release it. And don't forget the tests. 16:53
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tadzik ah, found the docs :) Will think about it, thanks 16:55
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Geth doc: 877404277b | Coke++ | 2 files
remove PREVIEW from examples
 16:56
doc: 8936faae4c | (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | 2 files
Merge pull request #2450 from perl6/6d

remove PREVIEW from examples You've left it here to be accepted right after release, is that correct?
kybr jmerelo: thanks. i think that i have to read more of the docs before i raise an issue. 16:57
jmerelo kybr: feel free to raise them any time you want. If it's already there, we'll point you in the direction. 16:58
[Coke] yes, after the release, which I didn't think had happened yet. 17:06
^^ jmerelo
SmokeMachine this is what Im trying: github.com/FCO/Red/blob/moving/exa...t/index.p6 17:07
jmerelo [Coke]: sorry, I just clicked stupidly in merge instead of comment. 17:08
[Coke]: Maybe revert?
SmokeMachine this is what happens:
www.irccloud.com/pastebin/W9p2Ceyj/
jmerelo SmokeMachine: you've consumed the Sequence 17:09
SmokeMachine jmerelo: thats not a seq... 17:10
and that happens even if I only do the last one...
jmerelo SmokeMachine: it generates an iterator when you "for" it. You could copy it to a list, or use "map" or some other function that does not do that. 17:11
SmokeMachine yes... I could... but it should be lazy... 17:12
jmerelo SmokeMachine: until you iterate.
SmokeMachine and that were working some time ago...
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SmokeMachine and, what the me.tickets.Seq do is: `Seq.new: me.tickets.iterator` 17:19
and ResultSeq creates a new iterator each time you ask for one... 17:20
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jmerelo SmokeMachine: but if it's a lazy sequence and it's been iterated, that's it. I mean, look at the error. What's your interpretation for it? 17:23
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SmokeMachine jmerelo: its returning the same object (not a type object) 17:24
jmerelo SmokeMachine: OK, try and fix that... 17:26
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SmokeMachine jmerelo: when I change the code to: `.say for me.tickets;`it prints: 17:27
Ticket::ResultSeq.new(chain => Red::AST::Chained.new(filter => Red::AST::Eq.new(op => "=", returns => Bool, left => Red::Column.new(attr => ticket.author_id, attr-name => "author-id", id => Bool::False, auto-increment => Bool::False, references => -> ;; $_? is raw { #`(Block|77453512) ... }, nullable => Bool::True, name => "author_id", class => Ticket, name-alias => "author_id", type => Str, inflate => { ... }, deflate => {
... }, computation => Any), right => Red::AST::Value.new(value => 1, type => Int, column => Red::Column), bind-left => Bool::False, bind-right => Bool::True), limit => Int, post => Callable, order => Array[Red::Column].new(), group => Array[Red::AST].new(), table-list => [], next => Red::AST::Chained))
jmerelo It's not consuming the Seq... 17:28
SmokeMachine yes, thats it!
m: .say for $[1,2,3] # something like this
camelia [1 2 3]
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SmokeMachine but I think it isnt itemized becouse `for me.tickets<> didnt work` 17:29
m: .say for $[1,2,3]<> 17:30
camelia 1
2
3
jmerelo <> de-containerizes, that is, de-lazifies and consumes the sequence
SmokeMachine yes... that wasnt the fix... I was just trying...
m: .say for $[1,2,3][] 17:31
camelia 1
2
3
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SmokeMachine this consumed the ResultSeq: `say "{ .status.name } - { .title }" for me.tickets[];` 17:32
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jmerelo Same as me.tickets.Seq 17:35
SmokeMachine yes... 17:39
is it itemized?
i think it is: github.com/FCO/Red/blob/master/lib...ip.pm6#L12 17:40
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SmokeMachine thats not the problem... :( 17:47
m: sub a { Proxy.new: FETCH => sub (|) { class MyIterable { method iterator {class :: does Iterator {method pull-one { $++ < 10 ?? 1 !! IterationEnd }}.new} }.new}, STORE => sub (|) {}}; .say for a # got it! jmerelo 17:51
camelia MyIterable.new
SmokeMachine so, now the question is: how can I make a Proxy do not itemize? 17:52
jmerelo SmokeMachine: Create a copy
SmokeMachine m: sub a { Proxy.new: FETCH => sub (|) { class MyIterable { method iterator {class :: does Iterator {method pull-one { $++ < 10 ?? 1 !! IterationEnd }}.new} }.new}, STORE => sub (|) {}}; .say for a.Seq
camelia 1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
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SmokeMachine jmerelo: sorty, I didnt get it 17:53
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jmerelo SmokeMachine: you can't have it both ways. When you iterate, you start to itemize. If you want to lazify all over again, you'll have to clone it before you iterate. 17:54
SmokeMachine jmerelo: I think im getting the oposite... if its itemized it doesnt iterate... 17:55
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SmokeMachine m: sub a { Proxy.new: FETCH => sub (|) { class MyIterable { method iterator {class :: does Iterator {method pull-one { $++ < 10 ?? 1 !! IterationEnd }}.new} }.new}, STORE => sub (|) {}}; dd a 17:57
camelia MyIterable.new
El_Che I was strongly considering going to YAPC Riga next year because my schedule clears up considerably around that period. Guess who no langer cares and has his schedule free for holidays...
My tolerance for unprofessionalism was already limited, but is now depleated 17:58
jmerelo El_Che: I don't know, man. Let's just wait and see. 18:00
El_Che: OTOH, I don't like the official account of a Perl event giving personal opinions. Or a former Perl event.
AlexDaniel El_Che: I wish to go there, actually… that's so close to me that there's no reason not to go. Could've been my first conference :) 18:05
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lizmat El_Che: re twitter.com/nxadm/status/1059500668212383744 : that's exactly my problem: in the Diwali there was no way to ignore raku 18:16
*announcement
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lizmat imagine a Robert Zimmerman announcing that was also going to use Bob Dylan as a stage name in the early 60's 18:18
a stage name only works its intended purpose if people do *not* know what the real name is
jmerelo lizmat: but we all have stage names. I am JJ in GitHub, jmerelo here, jjmerelo elsewhere... I use other stage names in some other places. 18:19
Xliff These days, most stage names are out there for the public to find, if they want to.
lizmat I would consider those nick names rather than stage names
like Rakudo has been a de-facto nickname for Perl 6 for years already 18:20
jmerelo lizmat: well, Rakudo was rather limited to the compiler.
Xliff It's marketing. The truth is always flexible.
jmerelo Xliff++
lizmat jmerelo: just as jmerelo is limited to IRC here 18:21
Xliff Let people think the name has been changed. If it gets Perl 6 out there, then it has served its purpose.
jmerelo lizmat: OK, let's say Raku is a nickname reserver for marketing purposes.
lizmat of which the marketing was botched from the start :-(
jmerelo lizmat: I mean, I've seen more people talking about Perl 6 in the last few days in social networks that I'd ever seen. 18:22
lizmat: thing is, TimToady made his choice. Might not be the wisest, or might not be the best thing that a choice had to be made. 18:23
lizmat options for TimToady:
- decide there is not going to be a stage name
- decide there *is* going to be a stage name, but also describe how that would need to be implemented 18:24
- communicate
jmerelo the third one is definitely a must. Second, too. I don't see the first happening. He could have simply refused to choose any stage name. 18:25
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El_Che lizmat: there is a HUGE difference between campaining against or opposing the alias and throwing a tantrum and kill the biggest Perl conference in Europe. 18:29
SmokeMachine jmerelo: this fixed: github.com/FCO/Red/commit/01b92872...755f00cfcb 18:30
lizmat El_Che: I think "throwing a tantrum" is uncalled for
El_Che I respect other opinions. I dislike childish behaviour and I won't risk my money or my reputation within the company (if I take a collegue) on an event with an unknown future
really?
lizmat previously you mentioned the "sad state" that a single person can apparently "kill" a conference
El_Che "Take back your alias or something could happen to your nice conference" 18:31
you know what? He can have it
lizmat El_Che: so you're going to organize the next european Perl conference ?
El_Che lizmat: NO ONE is
lizmat if so, I suggest you get in touch with the YEF venue committee 18:32
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El_Che or I may 18:32
lizmat so what does that tell about Perl ?
El_Che and take my ball home if people don't do what I say
sigh
that we need an alias in order not to die?
that we depend on unreliable persons?
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El_Che all pretty depressing 18:32
you see, my problem is not with people disliking the alias 18:33
is with people threatening and setting childish ultimatums
I hope you see the difference 18:34
lizmat I think you need to see youtu.be/ySWez59lhH0?t=289
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El_Che I don't understand how you fail to see how unacceptable it is for a single individual to kill a conference 18:35
that is the fact in this matter 18:36
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El_Che not about liking of disliking an alias 18:36
AlexDaniel I really don't get it. “like Rakudo has been a de-facto nickname for Perl 6 for years already”… so “Rakudo” is fine, but we take away two letters and say that this is now official, not just de-facto, and suddenly it is the end of the world? 18:37
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El_Che twitter.com/perlcon/status/1059353130129874944: "The conference is unpaused if Raku is unannounced." 18:38
so, if you don't do what I say, I kill the whole thing 18:39
lizmat El_Che: as long as we deem it acceptable as a community to have a *SINGLE* person come forward to organize the European Perl Conference when *NO OTHER PERL GROUP IN EUROPE* was able to come up with an alternative
El_Che closer than "I take my ball home" you won't get
lizmat: that was a *very* nice gestur
e
lizmat El_Che: I think that person has the right to call it quits if that person deems the financial risk to become too large
El_Che but as it turns out, an empty one
wasted everyone's time
yes, that would be better 18:40
lizmat El_Che: not to mention his own time: having been over there already to sign contracts, canvas the area, work out arrangements
El_Che to officially cancel it instead of playing a threatening game
a lot of people don't like to play that kind of games
lizmat those people should then get into the "organize a Perl event" game
and find out how appreciated it is 18:41
El_Che rather no event, than a non-event with a twitter account
in the end, it's the same without the drama
lizmat: so, as I understand it, you are ok with someone calling the conference off until something he can not decide on (Larry did) is withdrown? 18:43
it's difficult to grasp
Xliff Whenever anyone gets a chance, I could use some help. 18:44
lizmat I'm ok with him waiting for clarity on how this will start to play out
Xliff (yes... it's the GTK thing again, but it's self contained... I promise!)
gist.github.com/Xliff/b98f00d93194...c65ad3c737
lizmat and yes, if he should decide he doesn't like the odds, then yes, he can cancel the event
El_Che so, you're ok with the threat? 18:45
atweiden-air El_Che: where can we read more about larry's statements in regards to raku?
lizmat and give the Perl community a chance to come up with an alternative in the coming *TEN* months
El_Che atweiden-air: on the logs of this channel
besides the twitter tantrum, the reactions are been pretty OK 18:46
lizmat El_Che: I can *understand* the reasoning on why he's holding back on further investing in this conference until there is clarity (in *his* opinion)
El_Che but again, I am not pissed off about people being against an alias
but about people making threats if the community doesn't do as he says (he uses "we" on twitter, but it's a "he") 18:47
woolfy Claudio Ramirez: he actually has not paused organising it. He said he would do it, but actually, he just went on. If you would have paid attention, you would have seen he has posted information. He has been busy with development of tickets and prices, and more.
El_Che I respect an opposed opinion, I react badly to threats 18:48
I paid attention, as I wrote what I think on twitter directly to the person
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El_Che anyway, I said my 2c. No Riga for me. 18:49
I hope it's a success
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El_Che but I don't want to take the risk 18:49
lizmat El_Che: what risk? 18:50
that there won't be a conference there?
woolfy If anyone is taking a risk, it is Shitov.
El_Che lost of money, time and reputation at work
lizmat you cannot even register for the conference yet? 18:51
El_Che everyone is talking risk getting tickets to a conference that may or may not happen
plain
hotels
time-off of works
lizmat you cannot even register for the conference yet?
El_Che see if collegues can come with
lizmat: that's not how conferences work in companies
woolfy Shitov wrote three (!) books about Perl 6, and hoped it would be a success. he was the first one to write any good Perl 6 book. Huge financial risk. This is his third European Perl conference he organises, each time a big financial risk. He knows a lot about taking financial risks.
El_Che lizmat: you need to ask for them well in advance
so they can book tickets, plan around it etc 18:52
pyrimidine speaking as someone who is pretty neutral on this, I read shitov's tweet pretty much as El_Che describes it (a threat). May not have been meant that way, but that's what came across to me
El_Che if I am going on a personal account, I won't wait until the last minutes to get a plain ticket as they become expensive
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woolfy The success of his books and his new conference depend on the name of Perl 6. If that is going to be Raku, going to stay Raku, why would people sponsor a Perl conference where Raku is going to be. 18:52
El_Che lol 18:53
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El_Che his conference will fail if someone use the Raku alias? Then it *deserves* to fail HARD 18:53
that is really nonsense
perl 5 people don't give a rat's ass about Raku or Perl 6 18:54
and the wider world don't give a rat's ass about Perl 6 because they think it's good old Perl 5
atweiden-air El_Che: they don't?
El_Che if you think your conference will fail because someone uses an alias, you're delusional
atweiden-air granted, there aren't many of them
lizmat El_Che: from a p5p core member: www.reddit.com/r/perl/comments/9tw...u/e91mu3g/ 18:55
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andrzejku can I ask 18:55
something
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El_Che lizmat: people about the echo chamber don't care about the alias, perl 5 or 6 18:55
andrzejku the man who created MoarVM 18:56
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andrzejku he is who? 18:56
here
El_Che it will be the *same* 200 people that attend the perl conference that will go to riga
don't act alike you're organising the next dockercon
(which I am attending by the way :) )
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El_Che andrzejku: he declared he will never visit a perl 6 channel ever 18:56
andrzejku ops 18:57
El_Che (talking about tantrums)
andrzejku why?
he is busy
El_Che while the discussion was very civilized
because he didn't get what he wanted (the alias to be removed)
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pyrimidine El_Che: who is 'he'? 18:58
I think andrzejku is looking for jnthn? 18:59
andrzejku yes
jnthn: hi
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pyrimidine andrzejku: might check out #moarvm I think 18:59
El_Che sorry, I was talking about twitter.com/perlcon and not about jnthn :) 19:00
lizmat Xliff: sorry, but that's a bit above my head
andrzejku that nice
Perl Conference
but I have small kids and my wife will not let me go : ( 19:01
El_Che andrzejku: I enjoyed the ones I attended a lot. I am not as difficult as my rant above would suggest :) 19:04
andrzejku El_Che: nice, are you Perl developer by profession? 19:05
El_Che The Perl conferences are the nicest one I have attended, maybe that why I was triggered. If other conference don't look interesting I just skip them without a second thought
andrzejku: I have had different roles on different places
andrzejku El_Che: ahh 19:06
El_Che: I attend only in small Linux Conference
El_Che: but it is a little bit boring for me
El_Che andrzejku: mostly AAI nowadays that involves architecture, programming and devops. I tend to use P5 and Go and try to use P6 where possible
andrzejku ahh
El_Che andrzejku: are you a perl dev? 19:07
andrzejku El_Che: No, I am working with legacy system but in past I was writing some perl scripts at my job 19:08
C Developer
El_Che C never gets old. A safe bet :)
andrzejku El_Che: however we have a small script
it is written in Perl 19:09
El_Che: I don't know it maybe good but it is adding things into C kind of macros in every branching point if conditions functions etc. and there is a static array 19:10
El_Che perl 5, I assume?
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andrzejku then when app is executed again we have code coverage raport which is also analyzed by Perl 19:10
yes
Perl 5
all team is complaining about that script
me either 19:11
El_Che complaining?
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andrzejku yes 19:11
El_Che: it is not working perfectly and it looks too complicated
like on in one file
El_Che I see, time to refactor ir : 19:12
it :)
andrzejku Well, that's right 19:13
El_Che there are a few places still using my perl5 proof of concept code that was planned to be rewritten in Java. Intended for a few months, 13 years later it's still in production :)
andrzejku someone actually wanted to use gcov there 19:14
but our project masters still want to develop on windows
so keep using Perl script :D
the funny thing is it was written by two Dr. guys 19:15
and it looks like a crap
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pyrimidine speaking as someone who's maintained a huge perl5 repo with lots of code written by many Dr. guys, I can relate :) 19:16
Not all crap, but there are definitely some crappy bits...
Xliff lizmat: Thanks for looking.
El_Che :)
lizmat El_Che: some code of mine from 13 years ago is still making billions of dollars / year 19:18
El_Che lizmat: I hope you got shares :) 19:19
pyrimidine lizmat: some of the code I mention above, likewise (though probably more in the millions). In lots of data workflows
El_Che (and I really hope the company in question keeps using perl 5) 19:20
lizmat El_Che: what do you think I've been living off / supporting Perl with the past 6.5 years ?
El_Che lizmat: you married rich?
:)
lizmat El_Che: yeah, it was effortless
not
andrzejku do you think that refactoring Perl it means to rewrite Perl to Perl6? 19:22
El_Che andrzejku: No. That would be porting in my view
andrzejku ahh 19:23
El_Che I am sure lizmat disagrees :P
andrzejku it is still a little bit confusing that we have to learn Perl to get money and Perl6 to have fun
ufobat ha! 19:24
Xliff I wouldn't mind working in Perl5
Would rather "work" in Perl 6, but the world is not perfect.
pyrimidine Xliff: same here
lizmat El_Che: I would not disagree with that
El_Che lizmat: just teasing you, I know :)
b2gills kybr: SetHash, BagHash, and MixHash are QuantHash's 19:25
SmokeMachine I wouldn't mind working with perl5 or perl6. If it's not in Brazil... any one know any position? :) 19:26
Xliff Are CStruct's 0-filled when they are created? 19:27
SmokeMachine Id love to leave Brazil befor january first...
El_Che SmokeMachine: booking.com seems to be always looking for Perl 5 devs. They are in amsterdam (dunno if it's a good place to work or not)
lizmat SmokeMachine: if you think Brazil is too hot, then Amsterdam should be fine 19:28
SmokeMachine lizmat: I do... is there a job there for me? 19:29
El_Che: thanks!
lizmat SmokeMachine: workingatbooking.com
SmokeMachine lizmat: El_Che: thanks! 19:30
El_Che (lizmat: for the record, the MLK meme is very unrespectful) 19:31
SmokeMachine: good luck
if you know p5 devs, maybe you know someone working there
SmokeMachine El_Che: yes... there are some friends of mine working there... 19:32
El_Che you get a foot on the door and they get a bonus :) 19:33
SmokeMachine: with the promise of Pinochet-like economics as declared this week, I get that Amsterdam sounds interesting :) 19:37
SmokeMachine someone told me that they are not getting the bonus anymore... looks that sameone had a script to send every resume on linkedin to them... 19:38
El_Che: yes...
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Xliff Well... Jobs in Amsterdam don't do me any good if I am in DC,US and can't move. :( 19:46
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pmurias .tell cygx yes it's doable 19:50
yoleaux pmurias: I'll pass your message to cygx.
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El_Che Xliff: good luck! 19:57
Xliff El_Che: thanks...
El_Che: You do NativeCall? Help me out! 19:58
gist.github.com/Xliff/b98f00d93194...c65ad3c737
El_Che Looking at it, but not a nativecall hero 19:59
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Xliff :/ 19:59
OK.
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Xliff HAHAHAHAHAHA! 20:01
I just fixed it... 20:02
But it only works for one version.
s/version/value/
El_Che Write a blog post
it's almost written already!
Xliff It's not fixed, per se. It's more hacked. 20:03
And the only conclusion I can come up with is that there is a bug in CArray
Or at least how I am using it. 20:04
I'd want to run this by either jnthn or Zoffix before I will bug it.
El_Che good plan 20:05
Xliff .ask jnthn Is this a bug in CArray, or how I am using it? gist.github.com/Xliff/b98f00d93194...c65ad3c737
yoleaux Xliff: I'll pass your message to jnthn.
pmurias .tell cygx I remember I managed to get Perl 5 to give me the end of the block with the pluggable keyword mechanisms in the past
yoleaux pmurias: I'll pass your message to cygx.
pmurias .tell cygx but it was a super long time ago and I don't rememember 20:06
yoleaux pmurias: I'll pass your message to cygx.
Woodi hi 20:08
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Woodi just one thing: if current Perl 6 is neutralized or de-Perl'ed what will happen to Perl 5 ? if it will be developed than it will probably gain modern features like nicer OO, functional programming, no side effects. also some improvements to regexes ? :) 20:12
lizmat one can dream
Woodi lizmat: but it will be cloning current Perl 6 :) 20:13
on the other hand backward compatibility will be thrown away
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lizmat Woodi: well, that's one of the points I was trying to make earlier this year 20:14
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Xliff Gist updated with wacky solution... 20:14
lizmat I don't see any new features "planned" for Perl 5 that we haven't already implemented in Perl 6 20:15
El_Che Woodi: whatever happens to Perl 6 will not have much effect feature-wise on Perl 5. The only think that may change is perception, as the next major version becomes available (and people don't mistakingly think perl 6 is a perl 5 upgrade)
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El_Che s/think/thing/ 20:15
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lizmat and *if* there would be features planned for Perl 5, there's a good chance they will be immediately also implemented in Perl 6 (if they make sense and are any good, of course) 20:16
El_Che perl 5 has a very hard time implementing new features (because of backwards compability and the complexity and age of the code base)
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lizmat so, while I value Perl 5 very much as a programming language, I think the runtime is past its prime 20:17
Woodi Perl 5 have realy good backward compatibility. maybe make it even stronger by [re]stating that "if you write something in Perl 5 I will work forever" - instant enterprise goodie
lizmat Woodi: as I discussed in www.perl.com/article/an-open-lette...community/
Woodi but main problem is that for some "Perl" means "Perl 5" and nothing new is allowed. means hibernation. it's unrealistic for few reasons 20:19
lizmat: checking
El_Che put on your asbestos cover 20:20
pmurias lizmat: the language is tied to the runtime by all the XS modules 20:22
lizmat pmurias: I'm not the only one pushing for PurePerl versions of modules
mst is another person pushing that, for different reasons (fatpacking, afaik)
El_Che and portability 20:23
mst lizmat: and also "FML don't make me debug XS I'm bad enough at plain C"
pmurias lizmat: other "scripting" languages have that problem too
Woodi I don't think pure Perl 5 fans will allow so easily to die for Perl 5 codebase :) 20:24
El_Che pmurias: pretty much everyone? C is also shunned in Go and Java if possible
pmurias TruffleRuby is running Ruby C extensions on the JVM but it's a big effort founded by Oracle
El_Che (as you introduce C security problems and make the code less portable and harder to build)
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Woodi C is king for many decades to come, eg. want to write in Ada and use that device ? ok, here, just compile that C drivers :) 20:25
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pmurias El_Che: what do you mean by pretty much everyone? 20:26
El_Che: is Java/Perl 6/Haskell there is a proper C FFI rather then just exposing random interpreter guts 20:29
El_Che That C comes at a price and therefor is also avoided if possible
specially in Go there is a strong tendency to avoid C bindings 20:30
pmurias bindings are a different problem
El_Che which is not a FFI problem, but a cultural practice
Skarsnik FFI?
pmurias foreign function interface 20:31
lizmat El_Che: also, some of the latest round of MoarVM improvements were about replacing C-code by NQP alternatives that *could* be JITted
El_Che indeed, I was impressed by that
lizmat So hand-optimized C code is not always the best anymore
El_Che Skarsnik: Foreign Function interface, iirc 20:32
Woodi IMO speed always wins...
pmurias lizmat: hand-optimized C code can also be JITted on the GraalVM ;)
Woodi night
El_Che Woodi: Java and Go have less a problem with speed that makes C a necessity (e.g. compared to Perl 5 or Python) 20:36
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El_Che (Woodi: I once followed a course "Python for data scientists" and the teacher kept repeating every 5 minutes: "oh not, you need to write that part in C" :) ) 20:41
Skarsnik lol 20:44
what was the use of python in this then?
AlexDaniel glue? 20:46
El_Che glue for C code, indeed
Skarsnik just do everything in C++ then 20:47
El_Che that's painful glue 20:48
Kaiepi reminder this throws a compiler error in c++ 20:49
struct foo foo = malloc(sizeof(struct foo));
Skarsnik hm, this sucks.. root@vps300582:~/perl6/moarperf# apt-cache search nqm
root@vps300582:~/perl6/moarperf#
Kaiepi s/foo foo/foo \*foo/
El_Che Skarsnik: use packages? 20:50
Skarsnik it's npm ><
nativecallable6, struct foo {}; extern struct foo* foo; 20:52
nativecallable6 Skarsnik, class foo is repr('CStruct') is export {␤}␤constant __NSConstantString is export := __NSConstantString_tag;␤our $foo is export = cglobal(LIB, "foo", foo);
Skarsnik *note to self, remove the _NSConstantString*
japhb Skarsnik: What does that bot use to do the translation? 20:54
El_Che oh, nativecallable6 bot, that's cool 20:55
Skarsnik there is no npm command on debian? apt-file search bin/npm find me nothing
!modules App::GPTrixie
or whatever the command to link modules xD
avuserow !eco App::GPTrixie 20:56
hmm I thought that was it
Kaiepi Skarsnik, npm might be a separate package from node 20:57
Skarsnik blogs.perl.org/users/sylvain_coline...-demo.html
japhb Skarsnik: npm on Debian is less than ideal. The fact that it is out of date at any given time is antithetical to the node+npm release cycle. You may get (an old version of) it as part of the node or nodejs package, depending on your Debian variant. 20:58
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Skarsnik I don't want to install node manually xD 20:59
japhb I had to jump through hoops to get a current version on my work machine, and finally gave up and just did my nodejs/npm work inside docker containers with bleeding edge installs.
Kaiepi building node from source isn't all that bad
well 21:00
on openbsd it's a pain in the ass
Skarsnik well most of npm related stuff point to : do inside a docker image. this is ass xD
Kaiepi on freebsd it worked alright though
AlexDaniel buggable: eco GPTrixie 21:01
buggable AlexDaniel, App::GPTrixie 'Generate NativeCall code from C headers file': modules.perl6.org/dist/App::GPTrixi...ail.com%3E
Skarsnik I love the trailing %3E at the end x) 21:02
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n0tjack Hey all. I'm going to write an implementation of J in Perl6 as an exercise. Feel like when it's done it's worth stuffing in CPAN. But modules.perl6.org is running slow for me here. What category do languages typically go in? 21:04
Should I use Languages::Jem or something else?
Kaiepi J? 21:05
n0tjack Yeah, jsoftware.com . It's an APL derivative.
If you like metas and hypers in P6, you'd like J. 21:06
(and my impl is going to be like 98% hypers and metas)
BooK_ lizmat: tried to privmsg you here on freenode, but required registration and lazyness don't blend well. :-)
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Kaiepi n0tjack, i'd use Lang::Jem 21:08
n0tjack thanks! 21:09
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Kaiepi np 21:10
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Skarsnik timotimo, this is a bit empty vps.nyo.fr:20000/ x) 21:14
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timotimo did you "npm run build"? 21:14
Skarsnik Hoo
timotimo oh, connection refused
did you set the listen address to 0.0.0.0? 21:15
Skarsnik that's better
timotimo btw, this thing has not yet had any engineering done to it to make it secure 21:16
it's meant to be run via localhost
Skarsnik it was just to test ^^
now I guess I have to redo all of this in no root xD
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timotimo you can easily consume a single cpu core with some simple requests once a profile is loaded 21:17
and in the future it'll allow you to call perl6 scripts on your computer and probably also run code you type into a text field
Skarsnik hm, no button to have a file selector? ^^ 21:18
timotimo to upload scripts? 21:19
oh, you mean to upload profile files?
Skarsnik yes
timotimo no
heap snapshot profiles, which the tool will support in the future, are between a gigabyte and multiple gigabytes 21:20
have fun uploading that via http
Skarsnik dunno I have more bandwitch than my VPS at home
He should be able to accept sql file still I guess? 21:21
ryn1x Seems like things are being repeated twice in the docs. i.e. why does this say "whenever whenever" instead of just "whenever"? docs.perl6.org/syntax/whenever Is this a bug or is it correct? 21:22
Skarsnik this look weird yes ^^
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Skarsnik hm, can you 'eat' token when writing grammar according to a value? EG: I want to parse "4XXXX2XX1X" where the number are a size of data to eat. 21:25
timotimo of course 21:29
m: say "4XXXX2YY1Z" ~~ / (<[0..9]>+) . ** { $0 } / 21:30
camelia ｢4XXXX｣
0 => ｢4｣
timotimo m: say "4XXXX2YY1Z" ~~ / [(<[0..9]>+) . ** { $0 }]+ /
camelia ｢4X｣
0 => ｢4｣
timotimo oops
m: say "4XXXX2YY1Z" ~~ m:g/ (<[0..9]>+) . ** { $0 }] /
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Couldn't find terminator / (corresponding / was at line 1)
at <tmp>:1
------> 3XX2YY1Z" ~~ m:g/ (<[0..9]>+) . ** { $0 }7⏏5] /
expecting any of:
/
timotimo m: say "4XXXX2YY1Z" ~~ m:g/ (<[0..9]>+) . ** { $0 } /
camelia (｢4XXXX｣
0 => ｢4｣ ｢2YY｣
0 => ｢2｣ ｢1Z｣
0 => ｢1｣)
timotimo well, i did it wrong
oh, no, it's correct 21:31
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timotimo m: say "4XXXX2YY1Z" ~~ m:g/ (<[0..9]>+) (. ** { $0 }) / 21:31
camelia Use of Nil in numeric context
(｢4｣
0 => ｢4｣
1 => ｢｣ ｢2｣
0 => ｢2｣
1 => ｢｣ ｢1｣
0 => ｢1｣
1 => ｢｣)
in regex at <tmp> line 1
Use of Nil in numeric context
in regex at <tmp> line 1
Use of…
timotimo ah, right
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timotimo m: say "4XXXX2YY1Z" ~~ m:g/ (<[0..9]>+) $<bits>=[. ** { $0 }] / 21:31
camelia (｢4XXXX｣
0 => ｢4｣
bits => ｢XXXX｣ ｢2YY｣
0 => ｢2｣
bits => ｢YY｣ ｢1Z｣
0 => ｢1｣
bits => ｢Z｣)
Skarsnik I need a better font to see the unicode character x) 21:36
timotimo :D 21:37
Skarsnik what was a good font for x-chat/hexchat? x) 21:38
ryn1x What is an example of "&awaitno longer blocks a thread while waiting"? 21:39
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Skarsnik m: say "4XXXX2YY1Z" ~~ m:g/ (<[0..9]>+) $<bits>=[. ** { $0 }] / 21:41
camelia (｢4XXXX｣
0 => ｢4｣
bits => ｢XXXX｣ ｢2YY｣
0 => ｢2｣
bits => ｢YY｣ ｢1Z｣
0 => ｢1｣
bits => ｢Z｣)
timotimo m: use v6.c await do for ^100 { start { await Promise.in(0.1) }; say "done"
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Missing block
at <tmp>:1
------> 3rt { await Promise.in(0.1) }; say "done"7⏏5<EOL>
expecting any of:
postfix
statement end
statement modifier
stat…
timotimo m: use v6.c await do for ^100 { start { await Promise.in(0.1) } }; say "done"
camelia done
ugexe i like the bait and switch of "no mass renaming/additions" which is explained away as "oh that was for the unofficial alias"
timotimo oh?
Skarsnik hm, I don't see this correctly with Deja Vu mono
timotimo that takes a long time to complete locally 21:42
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timotimo m) 21:42
21:42 Skarsnik joined
timotimo m: use v6.d; await do for ^100 { start { await Promise.in(0.1) } }; say "done" 21:43
camelia done
timotimo m: use v6.c; await do for ^100 { start { await Promise.in(0.1) } }; say "done"
camelia done
timotimo mhh huh?
ugexe i also find it amusing people keep throwing the word "tantrum" about someones recent attitude, when certain people here are famous for throwing tantrums and "taking their toys" while stomping away
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El_Che It was me using the tantrum word 21:44
I don't throw tantrums
ugexe nope, not you
El_Che just checking
ryn1x timotimo: There is a difference if I run your example locally
timotimo yeah, same here 21:45
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timotimo the trick is that $*THREAD can be different from before an await to after an await 21:46
m: use v6.c; await do for ^100 { start { my $startthread = $*THREAD; await Promise.in(0.1); say $startthread ~ " " ~ $*THREAD if $startthread ne $*THREAD } }; say "done" 21:47
camelia done
timotimo i don't know what's different here
ryn1x timotimo: does the 6.c verstion ever return for you locally? 21:49
timotimo it should
i'm just now recompiling rakudo to get the very latest of everything
oh
it's not able to run the code that marks the promises as finished because the thread pool is already at its limit, perhaps 21:50
RAKUDO_SCHEDULER_DEBUG ought to show that
yeah it outputs "will not add extra worker; hit 64 thread limit" over and over 21:51
and then never finishes the work
it works with ^62, but not with ^63 21:52
unless the timing works out such that the last few start blocks are queued after the first few timing promises have resolved
ryn1x m: use v6.d; await do for ^50 { start { await Promise.in(0.1); say $_ } }; say "done" 21:53
camelia 0
1
2
3
4
5
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done
ryn1x m: use v6.c; await do for ^50 { start { await Promise.in(0.1); say $_ } }; say "done"
camelia 0
1
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done
ryn1x m: use v6.c; await do for ^50 { start { await Promise.in(0.1); say $_ } }; say "done"
camelia 0
1
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done
ryn1x When I do that locally the results with 6.c are not ordered
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timotimo who knows what camelia is set up like :P 21:56
maybe it's got the env var for maximum threads set to a thousand 21:57
Skarsnik timotimo, I had the idea of writing a binary decompression with grammar and action, this look super overcrafted x)
timotimo yeah, it'll be great for fun, maybe not entirely practical :) :)
ryn1x either way... I guess I am trying to still wrap my head around what is different... in v6.c the inner await blocks the thread, but in v6.d it doesnt? 21:58
timotimo that's right, the scheduler takes a continuation and that gets shoved back into the thread pool 21:59
on 6.c, a task (start block for example) is taken from the queue and one of the threads on the thread pool runs it, and the thread from the pool only gets usable again when that task is completely done
in 6.d you have to set a custom $*AWAITER or $*SCHEDULER in order to ensure an await doesn't let your task jump across threads 22:00
ryn1x ok. thanks!
timotimo which is important when you're interfacing with C libraries that work with Thread Local Storage
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b2gills Call to anyone who uses StackOverflow, discussion of adding [raku] as a synonym for [perl6]: meta.stackoverflow.com/q/376267/1337 22:14
weekly: meta.stackoverflow.com/q/376267/1337
notable6 b2gills, Noted!
ugexe discussion? some jack ass already added it to every thread
and that type of behavior is "the writing on the wall" many spoke of 22:15
the carelessness this was handled has allowed tis 22:16
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ugexe i'm definitely on the verge of leaving the perl community altogether myself as well. i don't know if that would be the case if this were handled different or not, but i don't see my original vision for both language as a possibility any longer 22:19
ryn1x interesting: stackoverflow.com/users/238/pat?tab=activity 22:21
b2gills stackoverflow.com/users/238/pat?ta...=revisions 22:23
ugexe i doubt you'll catch me on github or stackoverflow anymore, but i still hang on freenode and can be pm'd. its been an interesting 6 years. 22:24
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pmurias :( 22:25
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patrickas Hello, I am the jackass in question 22:25
Andrew Shitov asked on irc how are people looking for raku going to find the perl6 info and I thought it was a valid concern and "solved it" in 30 minutes. 22:26
I did not delete any perl or perl6 tags just added raku where possible... If people think it is wrong it can be easilly deleted... 22:27
I can go back and delete it myself if it is causing distress
tony-o it was done without discussion, which is the point ugexe was making about "Call to anyone who uses StackOverflow, discussion of adding [raku] as a synonym ..."
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El_Che it would be nice to know what's ugexe vision is and how an alias blocks it? Is the the Perl 6 as the Perl heir track? Something else? 22:30
patrickas Sure if people want to discuss raku and maybe revert it that is fine.... but this has nothing to do with stackoverflow...
El_Che patrickas: It does not look like it was done in bad faith. I would just wait a little to see how TimToady sees the alias thing. 22:31
tony-o i can't speak to his vision but it does suck to be given "marketing reasons" as the reason that a language i've written a lot of modules for is changing names
El_Che tony-o: alias, not chaning name
pmurias El_Che: what's super annoying is trying to do a sneak rename under the guise of an alias 22:32
b2gills patrickas: Just leave it, the mods can handle changing them back
lizmat El_Che: I've come to the conclusion that what is happening here, is a thinly veiled attempt at a coup d'etat
tony-o you can call it an alias all you want but that isn't exactly honest and it isn't exactly what's happening when you're jumping to add `raku` to everything within a day
patrickas El_Che of course it was not done in bad faith. I have no doubt that Larry is not out to destroy perl6 :-)
El_Che tony-o: I understand you don't like it. I just wonder about the vision ugexe was talking about. E.g. I know of lizmat's vision for Perl as a whole.
tony-o lizmat++ 22:33
b2gills tony-o: I'm the one that posted the synonym thing
El_Che lizmat: that an heavy hyperbole
n0tjack What's the modern zef equivalent of " panda install Task::Star" now that panda is deprecated?
tony-o zef install Task::Star 22:34
b2gills ... synonym thing on meta.stackoverflow.com
El_Che n0tjack: iirc Task::Star is dead
(or wasn't?)
n0tjack Hmm. How can I then install the Rakudo-default packages with zef?
tony-o if it's not then zef install <module> is the panda equivalent to panda install <module>
n0tjack I'm asking because I installed the latest Rakudo which claims to come with zef and p6doc but didn't, so I'm installing from scratch using rakudobrew
I just want a full Rakudo 2018.10 installation with zef and p6doc etc 22:35
pmurias El_Che: the whole thing looking like that is a problem even if it's not the case
El_Che n0tjack: here is the list stmuk using when building star: github.com/rakudo/star/tree/master/modules
n0tjack tony-o: I tried that, got "No candidates found matching identity: Task::Star"
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Zoffix lizmat: coup d'etat by whom? Me? 22:36
n0tjack El_Che: thanks, I guess I can do it manually
tony-o what part of that is hyperbole El_Che ?
n0tjack kinda paintful
lizmat Zoffix: yes
El_Che tony-o: the coup d'etat
patrickas lizmat a coup d'etat by the current dictator for life? that's not how coups d'etat work! :-/
did Zoffix do it without blessing form Larry?
lizmat I think it is quite unclear for which Larry gave his blessing 22:37
tony-o El_Che i can't see why you think that is hyperbole
b2gills patrickas: I posted a link to meta.stackoverflow.com/q/376267/1337 which has more information
lizmat I'm pretty sure that retagging questions on stackoverflow was not on his mind
b2gills It has the transcript of Larry settling on Raku for instance
tony-o if the alias thing was a good idea, it would have happened a few years ago when it was discussed ad nauseam 22:38
lizmat that's changing the history, the past
b2gills lizmat: If they are marked as synonyms then if anyone in the future trys to mark something as [raku] it will get the [perl6] tag.
Zoffix patrickas: no, I followed all the proper channels and collected two screensful of *links* to discussions for Larry to consider when making his final decision.
lizmat the next step could very well be removing the perl6 tag from the questions on stackoverflow
tony-o if i was battered with that question for 3 years i'd probably just say "fine here ya go"
Zoffix But for some reason I'm coup d'etating now
El_Che tony-o: for a coup, I would expect the one or ones in power be ousted undemocratically. In this case, TimToady just picked an alias to unify existing aliases. Nothing more, nothing less. He's still there, and core devs weren't replaced by a new posse
patrickas My question was mostly rhetorical. 22:39
I think it is just an unfortunate coincidence that this is happening while larry is on vacation
Zoffix lizmat: for the past 6 months I've been working on 6.d release and didn't have much time for coup d'etating
b2gills Also if the name Raku becomes the main name, the synonym feature could be reversed.
patrickas But it is not like any irreversible happened
lizmat I will not get into a discussion now: I will write a blog post tomorrow and explain my view
tony-o El_Che that falls really well short of what actually happened.
coup's never happen when someone leaves the capitol 22:40
b2gills: lmftfy *when*
ryn1x is a little worried about all this drama and hopes nothing happens to his new favorite language
b2gills ryn1x: This is not the first, or the most heated discussion. It will be fine. 22:41
El_Che tony-o: that's what I saw. Probably I am missing a zillion of discussion within selected groups.
b2gills: :) true
Zoffix ryn1x: nothing bad will happen. In fact, this drama is based on imaginary boogeyman of Zoffix of Znet coup d'etating by... politely asking the BDFL to make a ruling. 22:42
El_Che <drama>but will it be the last</drama>
b2gills tony-o: I totally expect that it will become the main name at some point.
tony-o politely asking for years
Zoffix lizmat: yeah you got me! It was all a rouse! Next year I plan on writing even more code!
tony-o and not taking `no` as the answer
Zoffix tony-o: it was about 2 months of politely asking before the alias decision was birthed.
patrickas I think hugging the trolls is not good enough policy. We should also hug the contributors form time to time. 22:43
n0tjack As an outsider, I'm happy a stage name was selected and acted upon.
Zoffix In fact, I wasn't even asking then, I was making the case to the community. The polite ask was a month ago.
tony-o sure it was
b2gills It is something that is years in the making. I'm sure it predates Zoffix's involvement in the language.
lizmat Zoffix: that question existed *at least* since TPCiA
Zoffix lizmat: which question?
tony-o the alias question.
Zoffix lizmat: I wasn't there, so tony-o's characterization that I was harping on for years is crap 22:44
b2gills .hug patrickas
huggable hugs patrickas
b2gills patrickas: You mean like that ^
tony-o i said he's been being asked for years, you just happen to be the last one badgering him
lizmat sleep& 22:45
tony-o looking forward to your post lizmat 22:46
El_Che Looking at some reactions, Zoffix could have had asked for a rename without much difference
Zoffix Looking at some reactions, people are blowing an elephant out of a fly. 22:47
El_Che Will I break someone's heart if I use "raku" as a name within my workplace?
people that don't like will still use perl 6
I don't see the drama here
Zoffix lizmat: so will I have to get a new license plate for my coup d'etat? 22:48
El_Che and no coup (a would expect more in the line of a succesful fork for that)
tony-o not very graceful in victory are we zoffix?
El_Che tony-o: is this a victory/defeat thing?
tony-o it's obviously a polarizing topic and the marketeers for renaming perl6 are on the better end of the "discussion", don't act naïve 22:50
El_Che Oh, I would have prefered a renaming altogether. An alias is a compromise that for me doesn't solve the issues with Perl 5. I don't feel naive on that matter 22:51
b2gills The only way the war will be won, is when the battles stop happening.
El_Che For me, an alias is a good enough solution that allows everyone to win a little.
b2gills There have been many battles over the Perl 6 name (often started by the Perl 5 camp, but sometimes from the Perl 6 camp). 22:52
Zoffix tony-o: it was never a battle for me. As I've stated elsewhere, I worked in Marketing for over a decated and in the past 3 years have committed to the language 1,800 commits more than any other person. I have the best interests of the language in mind and I strive to achieve them. So far, in exchange for my efforts, a small group of people called me mentally unstable and accused me of coup d'etating. It's not
a you-win/I-win. We can all win, if we start presenting cogent arguments instead of calling each other names.
22:52 Zoffix left
b2gills The battles will not stop until the name changes. 22:53
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Juerd No, they won't stop, period. 22:53
b2gills Perhaps.
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b2gills I'd settle for them being less frequent, and less hostile. 22:54
Zoffix++ was just the first person to have the gumption to actually get something to happen.
Juerd This will go on forever, as it has for a decade and a half already. The grave potential consequences of either solution have been predicted, and it seems having an alias is making people from both sides unhappy and as such is not much of an end to it either.
22:54 ryn1x left
pmurias "Raku is an alternative name for Perl 6 language and can be used interchangeably. 22:54
" - from the glossary 22:55
El_Che well
b2gills I see both being used over the years with Perl 6 slowly being overtaken by Raku
El_Che a "positive" consequence is that the infighting is Perl 6 only. No battle with perl5 people this time beside a lost meme.
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tony-o a lot of us are also perl5 people. 22:55
Juerd Some people are invested (emotionally, financially, practically, socially) in the name Perl. Some see the name Perl as the main reason for Perl 6 to probably fail. 22:56
b2gills I see myself as a Perl* person
pyrimidine me too
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Juerd And it's been a battle for a long time. I don't see this ending. 22:56
b2gills At least we can have different battles now. 22:57
tony-o zoffix i don't care about your credentials, this isn't a pissing contest. it's alienated half the community and to act ignorant of that fact is disingenuous at best
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pyrimidine this happens for any language. See: mail.python.org/pipermail/python-c...05664.html 22:57
tony-o then to dance on the feelings of someone who most obviously feels alienated by it is a pretty flagrant flaw in character 22:58
pmurias b2gills: if the plan is to gradually make the alias more and more official it will cause aton of resentment
Kaiepi honestly i don't understand why this caused such a rigt
s/rigt/rift/
b2gills pmurias: Who said anything about a plan?
dduncan I've decided that I like the fully spelled out "Raku Perl 6" best as the name to go by, or the one I will use. I think it is important to show the connection to Perl. The main reason I support the Raku word is not about hiding a relation to Perl, but rather about making it easier to see at a glance that the language isn’t simply an enhanced version of the original Perl, that it has big differences. 22:59
b2gills dduncan: Sounds good.
pyrimidine dduncan++
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pyrimidine agreed 22:59
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pmurias b2gills: individual plans of people 23:00
El_Che dduncan: if the audience if a Perl audience, sure. If not, ymmv.
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tony-o pmurias++ 23:00
El_Che s/if/is/
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El_Che But the thing about an alias is that everyone can do as (s)he pleases. 23:01
b2gills pmurias: I don't care about the plans of people. I only care about what the end result will be.
dduncan Both Perl and non-Perl audiences would see that it is something different than the original Perl even if it draws heritage.
Juerd dduncan: Keeping "Perl 6" in the name means you can just as well not have something in front of it. It will still look like a version number, make p5 people feel claustrophobic, and it will cause people to avoid (Raku) Perl 6 because it's called Perl and their friends said that Perl sucks.
El_Che dduncan: many people stop listering after hearing Perl, sadly enough
they mentally replace it with stereotypes 23:02
(or cobol)
pmurias El_Che: just like before the official alias
Juerd But to be honest, I feel like I'm repeating things from 2004
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El_Che Juerd: I vaguely remember an old post you wrote 23:02
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pmurias El_Che: there are a bunch of shared resources 23:02
El_Che pmurias: it still be Perl. Everyone will see that after 5 minutes. My hope is that they would try it instead of dismissing off hand 23:03
Juerd Some things have changed since 2004 though, which made me more accepting of the name Perl 6
tony-o Juerd lol, because you are
El_Che Juerd: like a release? 23:04
donaldh I think if we focus on showing the world the amazing things you can do with Raku / Perl 6 then it doesn't really matter what it is called.
Juerd Mostly, that "Perl 5 is dead" seems to have become more true than before :(
El_Che donaldh: a killing app or a niche market would kill, yes.
donaldh: sadly, that's what all the small languages communities dream about.
dduncan I totally agree that having the number in the name is poor, but I’m not so concerned to get rid of it now because it has been around for such a long time. 23:05
El_Che Juerd: that's harsh!
Juerd I'm surrounded by geeks, nerds, hackers, and the like, all day, every day. Internationally too. It's hard to "sell" Perl 6 because it's Perl, but unfortunately the best selling point seems to be that it's not like Perl 5.
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woolfy Zoffix: I have been doing marketing for 30+ years and my company (companies) earned millions with it. Sort of "pissing contest" against your decade of marketing. I have spent a lot of money and time on marketing Perl, "pissing contest" against your loads of contributions to Perl 6. 23:05
dduncan I also like “Raku” by itself, but we do have all these books coming out titled “Perl 6”.
Juerd It makes me sad and I die inside when this is received with cheers, because I'm still very much in love with Perl 5 myself.
El_Che Juerd: yes, that's my experience as well.
donaldh I sell the features - Unicode, grammars, concurrency, etc.
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dduncan I also love Perl 5 still and would not say it was dying off. I don’t believe it and the community doesn’t need that antagonism. 23:06
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El_Che "I wrote this small piece of our CI infra in Rakudo" -> "ah cool, nice!" 23:06
"I wrtoe this small piece of our CI infre in Perl 6" -> <rolling eyes> 23:07
true story
tony-o seems like hyperbole El_Che
woolfy If we are doing pissing contests, I will not win... because not a coder, just doing marketing. Bad marketing, because I have lost. But I do know that your proposal got a lot of negative remarks, from a lot of people, as in "we are very much against it", and you still did it, knowing that this day would come and people would be angry.
Juerd woolfy: You've heard people debate in favour and against changing Perl 6's name for over a decade too. This risk of this happening has always been there...
El_Che tony-o: happened last month
tony-o sure did
El_Che "Oh I don't mind doing that in Python or Ruby, but not in Perl, however I have never written Ruby or Perl" 23:08
that's the kind of things I hear
woolfy And now I am angry, and Liz is, and Andrew Shitov is, and dozens of other people are angry.
El_Che stupid as hell
Juerd Although the concept of an alias instead of a rename is relatively new, many are discussing this as if it is, or is eventually going to become, a name change.
El_Che but nevertheless, it happens
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patrickas woolfy you are right it got negative remarks form people. But every single other solution including doing nothing and changing the name got a lot of negative remarks from lots of more people too. No? 23:09
dduncan What does “stage name” actually mean though? For many performers or authors, the stage name is the only thing audiences/readers know them as, so it is effectively a rename.
woolfy And since you, Zoffix, walked away from the Facebook group Perl6, you don't see all the angry stuff there. But it is.
lizmat dduncan: let's assume we have a large group of people who dislike Germans 23:10
Juerd woolfy: Note there's a huge selection bias in any Perl 6 community :)
woolfy patricas: we did not need an alias. We already got one. A perfectly fine one: Rakudo Perl 6. If you didn;'t want to use "perl 6", you could use "Rakudo", as demonstrated by Claudio Ramirez , and people would not roll their eyes.
lizmat and you are an artists named Robert Zimmerman
tony-o patrickas: so we'll replace a lot of negative remarks with a lot of different negative remarks is your accepted solution?
lizmat dduncan: and you use the stage name "Bob Dylan"
you get successful because most people don't know that that's not his real name 23:11
dduncan Yes, so that’s how a lot of hollywood stage names come about.
lizmat suppose he would have called himself "Bob "Dylan" Zimmerman?
would not have worked
Juerd woolfy: When it comes to marketing, the Perl 6 community is not the target audience. They're already convinced Camelia is sweet and the language is awesome. :)
lizmat that's why "Raku Perl 6" will never work
woolfy So, when we have a community of less than a thousand people, and many of those are very much against a new alias, is it wise to push through and through and go on and on and on and make a new alias despite all those people who really really really do not want that alias? 23:12
lizmat "raku" but itself in isolation could
woolfy The result is anger. Tatdaaa...
patrickas my accepted solution is whatever Larry deems appropriate after having considered this debate for over a decade. :-)
lizmat *by
Juerd lizmat: Agreed
lizmat so what's happening now is that Larry said "ok, you can use Bob Dylan" as a stage name
patrickas but I totally agree that the anger of core people in the community is legitimate and should be addressed
Juerd woolfy: There has been anger from many people, for a long time, already. It's just different people who are angry now, and lots of discussion (which I hope will increase the chances of a good outcome)
woolfy Juerd: as you very well know, I have done a lot of marketing outside the echo chamber. I have stood up against hundreds of people saying "Perl is dead".
tony-o after being asked the same question for 10 years ^
lizmat and now some people are spreading "Bob "Dylan" Zimmerman" everywhere 23:13
Juerd woolfy: Yes, but mostly with the selection bias of people at least approaching a Perl branded thing.
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tony-o "we can't handle the people that are angry so we'll just upset different people and try to sort them out" 23:13
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lizmat which is damaging for both the "Bob Dylan" stagename, and "Robert Zimmerman" the real name 23:14
but more on that tomorrow... I will grab woolfy now for some Expanse
b2gills dduncan: The exact details about Raku are probably going to stay in flux for years.
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tony-o the language formerly known as perl6 23:15
woolfy Juerd : well, it would hardly be useful if I would go to a zoo and try to convince people to stop looking at elephants and start using the butterfly language.
Juerd woolfy: No, but instead of the zoo, I might suggest asking people at a huge congress like the CCC congress 23:16
woolfy Liz tells me to back off. To go to bed. I am going to bed with the thought "we had a perfectly fine nickname alias extra-name whatever "Rakudo". No need to make an official alias. No need to add an official name that would piss people off.
patrickas lizmat: if you are bothered about my adding the raku to stack overflow questions then as soon as people ( or just Larry) agree that it was a bad idea to use it as an alias I will go back and delete everything myself.
tony-o she's probably right woolfy :-p
Juerd The CCC, you know, where a room full of a few thousand (really) hackers cheered for a slide saying "STOP USING PERL" 23:17
It seemed many were happy they could finally say this out loud.
tony-o why wasn't that your yard stick for adding it to the questions in the first place patrickas ?
woolfy Juerd : I am all in favor for that and I have been discussing that with some people, and they will meet me tomorrow and I will give them swag to bring to the next CCC and they will hand it out and talk about the wonders of Perl.
El_Che woolfy: rakudo was my preferred name for an alias (als Zoffix's iirc). TimToady picked something else, so be it.
Juerd I'll never forget this experience. I was there.
patrickas lizmat: it was not done in bad faith. Just as a quick and dirty solution to Andrew's concern: How will people looking for Raku find answers on stack overflow
El_Che Juerd: I saw the video. GRr 23:18
Juerd woolfy: Many will avoid anything called Perl. Often for awful reasons. :(
patrickas tony-o: my yard stick was whatever Larry says... as far as I understand it he said Raku is an alias. So I did not deleted perl6 tags I added raku as an alias
n0tjack Do I now have to install zef separately from Rakudo?
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woolfy Claudio Ramirez: the point that I disliked is that even though many people did not want to have an "official alias" at all, Zoffix proceeded and tried and tried and tried again and again to get it done. And now got it. 23:18
tony-o n0tjack: `rakudobrew build zef` 23:19
b2gills patrickas: Don't change it yourself. If you want the tags removed just flag one of the posts and ask for a moderator to remove the tags
woolfy And now eradicating the name "Perl 6" gradually.
El_Che n0tjack: it's part of mu linux pkgs if you're using those
Juerd El_Che: I was in the audience, both times. The first time I almost cried.
patrickas b2gills: I don't mind doing the work... If only to show people that there is no bad faith at all.
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cygx patrickas: adding raku tags would mean you have to double-tag everything or fracture the community 23:19
n0tjack tony-o: yeah, that's what I did, but it entails a lot of complexity, and my understanding from perl6.org was zef & p6doc came with Rakudo
cygx that's just not a good idea
Juerd El_Che: It was a perfect summary of what I had seen and heard many times already.
timotimo n0tjack: i'm having trouble following everything on the channel right now, but what did you download?
cygx an alias sounds good to me
n0tjack I'm on a Mac. I downloaded the .dmg for MacOS. 23:20
dduncan If the name Raku takes over, I hope that compensation will be made to those who have gone to the expense of making product such as books etc named “Perl 6” for losses they would take as a result, such as the expense of issuing re-branded editions or whatever else.
tony-o n0tjack: there used to be a rakudo package you could install that did install the package manager, i haven't ever used it so i can't speak to it
Juerd lizmat, woolfy: Good night, hope you won't lose too much sleep over this
woolfy Juerd: I know. I have seen the video. I was at FOSDEM, where often, people would come up to the Perl-booth, and said stuff to my face as "perl is dead", Perl is dying", "Perl should be dead", "You should not be here", and sometimes even "please fuck off with your fucking Perl".
tony-o but with rakudobrew you definitely need to install zef separately n0tjack
b2gills patrickas: The moderators have tools that do the work for them
n0tjack tony-o: Yeah, I believe that was Task::Star, which is gone now. I guess I'll install rakudobrew, but to get that to work to even install zef, I have to ask it to build perl6/moar, and then I have two installs. 23:21
tony-o n0tjack: you got a .dmg of rakudobrew ?
n0tjack tony-o: No, the front-page "install Perl6 now [with Rakudo]" The .dmg is Rakudo.
woolfy And that namecalling and dead-wishing happened too at OSCON and T-DOSE and NLUUG and FrosCON and other open source events where Liz and I promoted Perl. And year after year, I stood up against those people, and year after year it got less.
n0tjack But it doesn't come with zef, which I was under the impression it did, maybe mistaken
Juerd dduncan: If the language ever takes off, the first books will become collector's items regardless of the name :) 23:22
b2gills dduncan: Programming books tend to drop in sales very quickly
woolfy And now I can brace myself for laughter that those idiots of Perl decided to rename Perl 6 to Raku. We lost.
tony-o n0tjack: i haven't used it but you can install zef using zef if you check it out from the repo
patrickas cygx: it is only a temporary solution on the long run the tags can become synonyms so searching for one automatically finds the other. ( which is what I wanted to do in the first place but could not because perl6 contains a digit in the name )
woolfy Bed. Bye.
Juerd woolfy: Ciao
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El_Che woolfy: you missed Juerd's CCC testimonial 23:22
timotimo n0tjack: the rakudo star download is supposed to come with zef. maybe it's just not in your path?
Juerd El_Che: Even if she didn't see it here, we've discussed this in person several times. She knows. 23:23
n0tjack timotimo: that's what I thought too, and no it's not on $PATH, but I can't find . -iname 'zef' in the perl6 directory either
timotimo i wonder if it installs a zef-m instead
contains*
b2gills patrickas: The ability to ask for a synonym is newer than the synonym feature. Befor the ability to ask was added it all happened on meta.stackoverflow.com 23:24
timotimo did i see correctly that what you want is a 2018.10, though?
tony-o n0tjack: you can always try: git clone [email@hidden.address] cd zef; perl6 bin/zef install .
n0tjack Well, that's the recommended version on perl6.org
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dduncan To be clear, my “Raku Perl 6” preference was more of a short-term thing, so that people searching for or knowing about “Raku” or “Perl 6” will find it. Later on I expect I would shorten it after things start to settle. 23:24
timotimo i don't know how to unpack a .dmg to find out what's inside it 23:25
oh, it's literally a "disk image"
like, with a partition table and everything
n0tjack timotimo: I'll figure it out. EIther I'll blow away the .dmg installed platform and install from source, or I'll find out where the .dmg stuffed away zef and stick it on my path
thanks everyone 23:26
dduncan @timotimo yes, that’s one of the great things about the Mac disk image tech.
b2gills No one knows what the future holds.
donaldh n0tjack: I prefer to "brew install perl6"
n0tjack I'm aiming to minimize complexity; rather focus on learning the language than a bunch of infra stuff.
tony-o n0tjack: that command above will install zef from source (there are no depends so it can install itself) and it will tell you where the bin is
timotimo i wonder how much the appimage people stole from dmg 23:27
n0tjack tony-o++
donaldh n0tjack: I've just installed from the .dmg to /Applications 23:28
n0tjack Is zef on your path? I just found it in /Applications/Rakudo/share/perl6/site/bin
I'm gonna stick that on my $PATH
donaldh n0tjack: the readme says export PATH=$PATH:/Applications/Rakudo/bin:/Applications/Rakudo/share/perl6/site/bin and indeed zef is in /Applications/Rakudo/share/perl6/site/bin
n0tjack argh, now I feel like a dunce 23:29
(well, I am, but I feel like one too)
donaldh I did wonder if the .dmg installer did something more clever, but alas no. 23:30
I guess that, in general, is why I prefer to use homebrew to install stuff on my mac, when a homebrew install is available. 23:31
El_Che Angry people on facebook. A good reminder why I never bothered with it ;)
It's probably like angry people on twitter but with long posts ;) 23:32
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Geth rakudo.org: jstuder-gh++ created pull request #23:
Make torii image more responsive		 23:34
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dduncan There is no .dmg installer for Rakudo, its just drag and drop file copy. 23:44
This being The Mac Way to install apps.
Since 1984. 23:46
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tony-o dduncan: there is a different type of installer that behaves more like the windows style installers 23:50
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dduncan tony-o: Fair enough, all the Mac .dmgs I looked at for Rakudo Star were drag and drop. 23:57
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