»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend! 🦋
Set by Zoffix on 25 July 2018.
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AlexDaniel moritz: ah… right. But I still can't add other people to the perl6-community-modules org. Please add zoffix: github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-buggab...-457791888 02:17
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SmokeMachine Guys, I’m moving to uk... is there something I should know other then brexit? 05:00
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AlexDaniel SmokeMachine: from where? :) 05:46
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SmokeMachine AlexDaniel: from Brazil... 06:02
AlexDaniel SmokeMachine: good news! docs.perl6.org will be opening up faster! 06:04
by, like, a few milliseconds? maybe even tens of milliseconds!
SmokeMachine :)
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SmokeMachine AlexDaniel: something that I saw is more technical meeting on London then in Brazil... 06:06
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SmokeMachine AlexDaniel: are you going to the next one? 06:07
AlexDaniel: usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/...482906.JPG 06:08
AlexDaniel SmokeMachine: no. I'm not in UK, and honestly can't afford to travel right now :) 06:09
SmokeMachine That’s not right now... that’s in 1 month... 06:10
AlexDaniel I mean, during this period of my life :)
SmokeMachine I’d like to know you...
AlexDaniel I haven't been to *any* conference yet, actually. I was thinking maybe fosdem, but now… maybe fosdem 2020 :) 06:11
SmokeMachine I’d like to know you, jjmerelo, lizmat, jnhtn, and zoffix...
AlexDaniel yeah, I'd love to meet people 06:12
SmokeMachine And a lot of people of this channel (I know zoffix isn’t on this channel anymore...)
AlexDaniel .tell moritz colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...-01-26#l29 06:13
yoleaux AlexDaniel: I'll pass your message to moritz.
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SmokeMachine But zoffix has a very important place on my history on perl6 (imho) 06:14
Please add zoffix!!!
Imho zoffix is extremely important on perl6 history, I know I’m now aware of all of it, but on everything I saw, he was important! 06:17
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AlexDaniel I know… I think most people know, actually 06:17
SmokeMachine And I hope he will be back some day... 06:18
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SmokeMachine AlexDaniel: (where should moritz add zoffix?) 06:20
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AlexDaniel SmokeMachine: it's a technical issue. Zoffix no longer wants to maintain their modules, so we are trying to transfer them to perl6-community-modules, but they can't do that without being in perl6-community-modules org, which is something moritz can fix… 06:22
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SmokeMachine AlexDaniel: wouldn’t be a way to solve that try to make zoffix change his mind? 06:27
AlexDaniel SmokeMachine: yes, but 06:28
.seen Zoffix
yoleaux I saw Zoffix 6 Jan 2019 17:41Z in #perl6: <Zoffix> moritz: the project's direction and management style doesn't match my goals and I'll be happier elsewhere.
AlexDaniel the problem is that for most of the things Zoffix *was* our management, except we never explicitly declared it 06:29
and this created all sorts of problems, e.g. Zoffix having their hands tied for some things unnecessarily 06:30
and then some people dismissing their efforts and bullying them for no good reason
SmokeMachine I agree... 06:31
AlexDaniel anyway, my point is that there's no point asking Zoffix to come back right now because we didn't fix anything 06:32
SmokeMachine And some people blaming him to something that this people thought was wrong...
AlexDaniel however… afaik lizmat, jnthn and TimToady are discussing things 06:33
SmokeMachine I think that if he saw that was people on his side... that wouldn’t happen...
lucs . 06:38
yoleaux 25 Jan 2019 22:28Z <moritz> lucs: I've answered in a gist comment. You might also want to check out www.apress.com/us/book/9781484232279 :D
lucs moritz: Oh! Nice. Thanks. 06:40
lucs ashamedly admits that he has not carefully read the relevant chapters of his recently acquired eBook version of moritz's book, 06:42
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SmokeMachine lucs: what do you think about that ^^? 06:44
lucs What that is that? 06:45
The book?
If so, it's excellent! 06:46
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lucs .tell moritz Thanks for the solution. I got your book recently, I need to reread some chapters carefully :) 06:59
yoleaux lucs: I'll pass your message to moritz.
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Geth doc: 20258c2385 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/numerics.pod6
Reflow
 08:12
doc: 7a6387329b | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod6
Eliminates spurious . and reflow
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/numerics
Link: doc.perl6.org/language/operators
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tyil AlexDaniel, SmokeMachine: I'm going to FOSDEM every year, in case you want to meet up 08:43
if I know in advance I can take people into account for airbnb reservations
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moritz lucs: my pleasure 08:59
yoleaux 06:13Z <AlexDaniel> moritz: colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...-01-26#l29
06:59Z <lucs> moritz: Thanks for the solution. I got your book recently, I need to reread some chapters carefully :)
moritz lucs: if you liked the book, I'd very much appreciate a rating on Amazon (doesn't need to be a long review, a short sentence and 5 stars are awesome :D) 09:00
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AlexDaniel moritz: hmmm, I can't invite people 09:10
moritz: there should be a button screenshots.firefox.com/0GJ84Qevco...github.com 09:12
moritz I'm looking through the settings now
AlexDaniel “Only organization owners can invite users to join the organization” 09:13
unless they introduced some new setting 09:14
jmerelo AlexDaniel: you seem to be "member". You should have been listed as "owner" to do so, I guess. 09:15
moritz AlexDaniel: please try again (reload)
I've followed the instructions on help.github.com/articles/giving-te...on-member/ 09:16
I though I could give member management privs to a whole team, but it doesn't look like it
*thought
jmerelo moritz: probably that only allows to add people to that particular team
AlexDaniel moritz: no, nothing, and that's a different thing I think 09:17
it's about managing a team, not an organization 09:18
ah wait… hold on
yes, I'm correct :)
so I can add people to the team as long as they're already in the organization 09:19
otherwise it says “Not a member of this organization” if I attempt to add someone
moritz AlexDaniel: please try yet again :) 09:20
AlexDaniel yes, now I can do things! 09:21
moritz: thanks
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jmerelo We need some more ideas for the google summer of code: github.com/perl-gsoc-2019/ideas 09:27
And mentors
pls send them
AlexDaniel weekly: <jmerelo> We need some more ideas for the google summer of code: github.com/perl-gsoc-2019/ideas 09:28
notable6 AlexDaniel, Noted!
AlexDaniel weekly: And mentors
notable6 AlexDaniel, Noted! 09:29
AlexDaniel weekly: pls send them
notable6 AlexDaniel, Noted!
AlexDaniel :D
jmerelo AlexDaniel: you're going to turn notable6 crazy
AlexDaniel jmerelo: it's fiiine… if it starts dying there's a watchdog that will finish it 09:30
jmerelo AlexDaniel: other than that, did you think about some idea? 09:32
AlexDaniel jmerelo: colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...01-24#l664 09:33
that's all I have for now… just me asking others to be a mentor :)
jmerelo AlexDaniel: but the idea you mention would be worthwhile for the repo. 09:34
AlexDaniel yes
jmerelo AlexDaniel: could you please add it?
AlexDaniel I'm… I… 09:35
releasable6: status
releasable6 AlexDaniel, Next release will happen when it's ready. 7 blockers. 158 out of 257 commits logged
AlexDaniel, Details: gist.github.com/2449d2bb37d781be77...c9d7a8e75c
jmerelo AlexDaniel: OK
I'll do that
AlexDaniel jmerelo: thank you ♥
jmerelo But I'm all for credit where credit is due, so I'll say it's your idea.
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jmerelo BTW, 3 less, great job :-) 09:37
AlexDaniel mostly not my achievement :) 09:38
jmerelo: I think the way to come up with some good project ideas is to think what sucks in perl 6
jmerelo AlexDaniel: well, I'm not too happy about documentation tooling. That's one of the things I have inserted 09:39
AlexDaniel like argument parsing sucks, so that's what we're writing down now… unicode support used to suck, but then samcv got rid of any potential for a gsoc project ♥
jmerelo AlexDaniel: the ecosystem is also problematic. There's a lot of impedance between zef, modules.perl6.org, and specs.
AlexDaniel hmm 09:40
maybe ping ugexe?
jmerelo AlexDaniel: the simple fact that there's only one module manager (one-ish) also sucks. I'd like to see a new one.
AlexDaniel NEW ONE?
jmerelo AlexDaniel: that has proved not very fruitful in the past.
AlexDaniel ok, first of all, we had panda…
then we said that panda sucks and switched to zef
jmerelo AlexDaniel: right. It's not working now.
AlexDaniel: there's a lot of potential in zef, actually. It's an impressive piece of work. Most of what you would like to be there, is there. 09:41
AlexDaniel jmerelo: I think it's a good topic in general, but I don't know what exactly needs to be improved. ugexe definitely knows, try talking to them
jmerelo AlexDaniel: as I said, not very fruitful in the past.
AlexDaniel ahhh, I see 09:42
nine?
jmerelo AlexDaniel: (also, niner is also involved)
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jmerelo AlexDaniel: see all my issues in zef github.com/ugexe/zef/issues/created_by/JJ. A very naïve, and hopeful, "Include more information on failure" was simply ignored. 09:42
AlexDaniel jnthn: gsoc project? Maybe something related to improving the startup time (which sucks), as long as there's a hardcore student interested in that… 09:43
jmerelo AlexDaniel: I think I'm going to include all those issues as a GSoC idea. "Do something that is just like zef, except for... "
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AlexDaniel I think zef itself can be improved, no need to reinvent 09:44
jmerelo AlexDaniel: as I said, most of the potential is there. I was thinking more along the lines of forking it, eliminating and adding stuff.
samcv AlexDaniel, <3
yoleaux 23 Jan 2019 21:21Z <MasterDuke> samcv: the code is a bit complicated, not entirely sure how to un-todo it
AlexDaniel samcv: but is there something else that can be improved? 09:45
samcv well.
i'm not sure i'm still working on my ideas for things i could be the mentor for
tyil the modules website, but I'm preparing for that already
jmerelo For instance, isomorphismes was talking yesterday about searching in the "description" field using zef search. It so happens you can't do that, but just because the user-facing function can't. The library function is actually prepared for it.
samcv nice
jmerelo tyil: modules.perl6.org you mean? 09:46
Anyway, you two are going to be mentors, right?
tyil jmerelo: yes
AlexDaniel oo that's nice
samcv yeah i'm planning on it. i must come up with some ideas though
AlexDaniel tyil++ samcv++
samcv been very busy as i moved to amsterdam. and now have to move again into my actual apartment
after finding a place etc so many things :) 09:47
tyil samcv: same
samcv eventually it will all get done though
AlexDaniel jmerelo: btw they recommend having an up-to-date list of things to work on
jmerelo who?
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AlexDaniel jmerelo: like, so that we're not writing down projects for gsoc, but that we have these projects all year round
samcv at minimum i would put down decoding some of the chinese encodings
jmerelo AlexDaniel: we do have the issues.
samcv that's the largest thing i haven't implemented yet 09:48
AlexDaniel jmerelo: I don't remember, somewhere in mentor guides
tyil documentation is all year round :D
jmerelo AlexDaniel: project ideas will point at issues, actually.
samcv as far as encoding/decoding. also. they could work at refactoring the encode/decode code
so that decode and decodestream use the same decoding paths
jmerelo samcv: can you please add that to the ideas repo?
samcv yeah i will now while you have my mind :)
link to the repo just for my ease? 09:49
AlexDaniel jmerelo: it's fine to point at issues, as long as you have a separate project description… but generally I think it's a good idea to have that list and maintain in
tyil samcv: github.com/perl-gsoc-2019/ideas/tr...ster/perl6
AlexDaniel jmerelo: i.e. “if you want to help, here's a list of big-ish things you can do and these are the people you need to contact”
samcv so one file per idea?
tyil seems like it
jmerelo samcv: right
samcv and by the date we submit we should have at least one mentor who is able to take the project on. though we can add ideas before then and find mentor in the mean time 09:50
jmerelo samcv: we need to list one mentor per idea. I'm kind of dodging that by saying "One of the Perl 6 mentors"
tyil I like the improvement for TLS (OpenSSL module) project, client certs would be neat to have 09:51
jmerelo tyil: we'll add you as a mentor :-)
tyil woah
I wouldn't mind being a mentor, but I don't know if I have what it takes
jmerelo I think we all have what it takes. 09:52
tyil I'm not that great (cpan-p6 still has memory issues, for instance)
I'm more than willing to try and help out, though :)
jmerelo What we have is the will to enlarge the community and get some coders into the Perl 6 pool, and get Google to pay the organization so that we can continue to fund development.
(If I remember correctly, Google pays 50K to the organization, 5K per student) 09:53
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tyil neat 09:53
jmerelo tyil++
tyil it's about time I write up a blog post again as well 09:54
to let reddit know Perl 6 is actively being used for cool stuff :p
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samcv i met the guy who made perlito yesterday at my workplace. talked to him a bit about perl 6 stuff. he was much before my time though 10:00
but was cool meeting someone who knew what MoarVM was :)
El_Che Flávio? A very nice guy 10:01
samcv yeah
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El_Che saw him last at yapce amsterdam. He has always interesting stuff to say 10:01
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samcv jmerelo, is there someone handling the perl5 ones? or is it you 10:02
because. i may be able to find some poeple willing to be a mentor at my work. i'll try to put out an APB to possible people
El_Che SmokeMachine: good news!
samcv jmerelo, pushed my writeup there 10:04
github.com/perl-gsoc-2019/ideas/bl...ecoding.md 10:05
Skarsnik Hello 10:07
El_Che lo 10:10
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jmerelo samcv: great! 10:11
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jmerelo samcv: they are in the same repo. Mark Keating is kinda the Perl 5 head, but for the time being there's nothing in that area. 10:12
I'll post something to the Perl programmers Facebook group to whip up some support
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jmerelo Updated links from the front page: perl-gsoc-2019.github.io/ideas/ 10:15
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samcv ok great 10:20
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samcv jmerelo, pm me your email you'd like me to send them to you. in addition i can mention irc as well probably? 10:22
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pmurias jmerelo: I'm not sure the 50k$ is payed to the organisation (I think that ~5k is paid to students directly) 10:23
jmerelo pmurias: Probably. Maybe the thing was that a max of 10 students per organization, to the tune of 5k, were accepted. 10:25
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jmerelo pmurias: I'll check anyway. 10:25
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jmerelo pmurias: apparently yes, it's paid according to the number of mentors and students it gets: developers.google.com/open-source/...g-payments 10:27
pmurias: the FAQ also states 500€ per student. So yes, maybe not 50k, but still good dinero. 10:28
pmurias well the money handed to students also sort of counts as going into Perl 6 development 10:30
jmerelo pmurias: that's right. It's win-win.
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jmerelo samcv: it's jjmerelo at gmail. Also jjmerelo in Twitter, you can dm me. Or in Telegram. 10:31
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jmerelo It's win-win if your organization is chosen. 10:31
pmurias samcv: colaborating with Flavio (fglock) on the Perl6-to-Perl5 stuff was fun back in the day, he kid of drifted from the community radar as he is not on irc anymore 10:32
samcv ++ for perl foundation getting more money 10:34
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samcv pmurias, nice 10:57
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pmurias samcv: the ideas look good, you might want to use the idea template for them tho 11:10
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quad_ hi 11:25
moritz ho
quad_ how can I see what moar does?
print the generated code
different stages of compilation
to follow it
well? 11:27
moritz so, rakudo is the compiler, not MoarVM
moar doesn't have traditional compilation stages
it works on bytecode, and can do things like specializations, inlining and JIT on the fly, but not in stages
you can get a whole lot of debugging output out of MoarVM by doing a debug build, with Configure.pl --debug 11:28
quad_: does that answer your question? 11:29
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quad_ yes 11:29
how can I print the byte code?
mbv 11:30
mbc
moritz perl6 --target=mbc ... # iirc
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quad_ I cannot read it that 11:30
moritz but you want the byte code, no? :D 11:31
quad_ In a viewable format
understandable
moritz you can get an intermediate view with --target=mast 11:32
I don't know if there's a bytecode dumper for moar -- maybe the folks in #moarvm know more
quad_ I get an error I cannot stringify this 11:33
moritz I cannot stringify this either :( 11:35
quad_ have you tried the command you recommended me? 11:36
moritz yes, worked for me with -e 'say 1' 11:40
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quad_ I use perl6 --target=mast --output=test.txt -e "say 1;" 11:41
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quad_ in Windows 11:41
moritz have you tried without --output ? 11:42
quad_ yes, it works now 11:43
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quad_ can I see the code produced by moar? jit? 11:45
timotimo moar --dump can give you what's in a .moarvm file, but only the bytecode
you'll need to use --target=mbc for that 11:46
setting the env var MVM_SPESH_LOG to a filename will also give you bytecode from functions that are deemed hot enough for optimization 11:47
that will give you functions in a SSA form, which is a bit nicer to read, too
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quad_ Is perl6 fast now? 11:59
MasterDuke quad_: here's a blog post discussing that very question rakudo.party/post/Perl-6-Is-Slower...Fat-Momma. things have only gotten better since then 12:10
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timotimo reading jnthn's blog is always a good source for performance improvements 12:17
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MasterDuke and the weekly 12:19
timotimo indeed 12:23
i'm sure many modules still have a lot of untapped optimization potential, like we very recently saw with DBIish 12:24
MasterDuke timotimo: you could have a whole timotimo-branded line of modules. JSON-Fast, DBIish-Fast, etc 12:26
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moritz Timo::Fast :D 12:56
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timotimo Timo::JSON, Timo::DBIish, Timo::CodeGenerators::... 13:11
Skarsnik xD
Timo::Core
MasterDuke Timo::Timo
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moritz "Er hat 'nen Doppelnamen, er heisst Timo Timo" www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q54VeAvd0Y :D 13:17
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araraloren Hi 14:17
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araraloren Can someone help me check is my code using lock/unlock of IO::Handle in right way ? 14:27
gist.github.com/araraloren/cfb7d7b...le-test-p6
It's a simple plug-in framework 14:28
Currently the test code sometimes hang on or segmentfault
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sena_kun araraloren, $!lock.lock is likely to not be atomic. 14:38
I think you want make your class a monitor.
araraloren oh, it's not thead safe ? 14:39
sena_kun I am not an expert tho, but I'd opt to monitor usage in this case to avoid races by replacing a single keyword. :)
why should it be?
timotimo i'm confused by your assessment 14:40
but i'd recommend Lock::protect over Lock::lock and Lock::unlock
sena_kun timotimo, filehandle lock is used instead of Lock. 14:41
that's why it might be confusing, I think.
and lock/unlock on a file doesn't do anything related to threads.
timotimo oh
that makes a big difference, yes
sena_kun so either use a global Lock or a monitor. 14:42
araraloren I thought it would like flock in C
Anything can work in serval process ? 14:43
sena_kun this is where I cannot help. :S
araraloren or thread
sena_kun araraloren, "anything" is?
araraloren such as the IO::Hanle.lock/unlock 14:44
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sena_kun hmm, I might be wrong. 14:44
>otherwise will block until the lock can be placed 14:45
from docs
araraloren Oh, actually I want the module work in mulitple Process or Thread
yeah, I think it would work here 14:46
but it's not
sena_kun then we want someone with more experience to explain why it doesn't. sorry. 14:47
araraloren okay 14:48
thanks
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sjn jnthn++ # Happy birthday :) 15:13
timotimo oh! happy birthday verily! 15:17
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araraloren Happy birthday! jnthn++ 15:21
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moritz jnthn++ indeed :D 16:01
El_Che the ++ is funny in this case :) 16:05
araraloren haha 16:09
hahainternet yeah surely it's ++jnthn, you don't turn 31 on your 32nd birthday: p 16:12
and also, happy birthday jnthn, if i can buy you a pint or something ☺ 16:13
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Altreus where do compiled modules get cached? 16:52
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sena_kun you mean installed by zef or local ones? 17:00
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sena_kun results of precompilation for local modules stored in `.precomp` directories. 17:00
Altreus ok I deleted that, and ran it again, and now I don't have one 17:02
which is why I asked :)
uh unless there are many
ah it's in lib
I wonder why I had one at the top level 17:03
didn't help anyway ;_; 17:05
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Altreus help :D gist.github.com/Altreus/144c114d3e...4456562762 17:15
Geth ecosystem: zoffixznet++ created pull request #426:
Move Zoffix Modules to Community		 17:18
sena_kun m: my @role-ids = 537710338498363393; say [537710338498363393] ~~ @role-ids; 17:19
camelia True
sena_kun Altreus, ^
Altreus but the string version :x
sena_kun m: say [537710338498363393] ~~ "537710338498363393"; 17:20
camelia True
Altreus also, is this not a commutative operator? I thought it was
sena_kun m: say [13] ~~ "13"; 17:21
camelia True
Altreus m: say "13" ~~ [13];
camelia False
Altreus why
D:
sena_kun it doesn't look like a bug to me, I mean, too obvious. but I am not sure what's the semantics here and where to look it up.
Altreus, ~~ is not commutative.
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Altreus well 17:21
m: say [13] ~~ 13;
camelia False
sena_kun m: say 'a' ~~ /a/
camelia ｢a｣
sena_kun say /a/ ~~ 'a' 17:22
evalable6 Regex object coerced to string (please use .gist or .perl to do that)
False
in block <unit> at /tmp/1uW8zDpEae line 1
sena_kun m: say /a/ ~~ 'a';
camelia Regex object coerced to string (please use .gist or .perl to do that)
False
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Altreus oh that makes sense
sena_kun ~~ is a hidden call to ACCEPTS method of left side iirc.
Altreus Seems wrong to differentiate int and string like this - especially since the wrong one works!
sena_kun m: "13".ACCEPTS([13]).say 17:23
camelia True
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sena_kun docs are incomplete... 17:23
I think, it's that Array is being stringified and then being compared with.
m: [13].Str.say; 17:24
camelia 13
sena_kun and then `13` Str is surely accepted by `13` Str.
I hope this makes sense. :)
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sena_kun it is a bit of "trap" piece of language, cause number of methods stringify an array and may not do what user thinks. 17:28
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sena_kun like: 17:28
m: ['ab', 'cd'].index('ab').say; 17:29
camelia 0
sena_kun but:
m: ['ab', 'cd'].index('cd').say 17:30
camelia 3
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moritz m: say ['ab', 'cd'].Str 18:00
camelia ab cd
moritz m: say ['ab', 'cd'].Str.index('cd')
camelia 3
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Geth ecosystem: d7bae39aab | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list
Move Zoffix Modules to Community
 18:33
ecosystem: f6105ad74d | (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list
Merge pull request #426 from zoffixznet/patch-2

Move Zoffix Modules to Community
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quad_ hello 18:34
is anybody using Perl6 in the commercial world?
sjn knows of a company that uses Perl 6 to write some of it's backend tooling 18:35
quad_: are you thinking of something specific? 18:36
timotimo edument is using perl6 for something related to agriculture, there were one or two talks about it at a recent-ish perl conference/workshop 18:37
nine's team has been using perl6 at their workplace for a while and if i remember correctly they've been transitioning more and more tools/daemons/scripts to perl6 18:38
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quad_ there is too much competition 18:46
a lot of languages 18:47
El_Che The time of dominant languages is gone
quad_ Java?
El_Che is popular, but far from dominant 18:48
quad_ Javascirpt
El_Che maybe on on the frontend, but not on the backend 18:49
quad_ where do you get you information from?
sjn quad_: What are you specifically competing on? Adoption? Fitfulness for a specific purpose? Execution speed? Development speed? Code->run->error->code feedback loop tightness? Hype?
El_Che most languages in the backend are interchangeable, certainly in a time of microservices and containers
quad_ Execution speed. Development speed. Code->run->error->code feedback loop tightness. 18:50
El_Che quad_: own experience, colleagues, people I know, ecosystems, conferences, the yearly polls and garner-line (grain of salt) market research
sjn quad_: tell us what you think is important, and we'll give you our honest answer on how we think Perl 6 measures up there :) 18:51
El_Che Depends which one you want, e.g. python has a tighter dev loop, but go is *way* faster
so, it's all very relative
timotimo go is only *way* faster if you're using CPython, fwiw :)
El_Che timotimo: there is a reasons the alternatives in the python families haven't broken trough in the Python world 18:52
s/is a/are/
sjn quad_: Perl 6 isn't really good on the execution speed part, but if you have a fast C library, the foreign function interface is quite good so you can still make use of a fast library from Perl 6 18:53
El_Che pretty much like python and ruby people have to use when they need speed
sjn quad_: As for development speed, Perl 6 is doing pretty good, IMO. Upside it's a *very* high level language with fantastic error messages and quite decent tracing tools, but the learning curve is quite steep as the language is very large (although this is partially remedied by good reuse of some programming patterns) 18:55
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quad_ yes 18:57
sjn quad_: the code-run-error-code feedback loop is pretty decent, but kinda dependant on the environment you're running in. others here may be better than me to give details, but I've seen very fast development from basic proof-of-concept to well structured OO+Roles in very short time
Perl 6 has some really neat features when it comes to growing a project over time 18:58
quad_ I also like to be able to producr executables 19:00
and good development environemtn
sjn personally, I'd give the speed of Perl 6 (at the moment) maybe 4/10. There's still lots that can be improved, and fortunately a bunch of people are actively working on this as we speak
quad_ good debugging facilities
biggest competitor is Perl 5 for me
sjn quad_: starting a Perl 6 project in 2019 is a pretty safe thing, I think, especially if execution speed isn't very important. Over time, expect that your code will go faster just because of improvements in the VM 19:02
quad_: if you need to produce executables, Perl 6 (or Perl 5, really) isn't your thing.
quad_ yes 19:03
sjn in fact, a VM with a well-tuned JIT outperforms compiled code these days (although Perl6 isn't there yet, other languages with more mature VM's are)
we'll get there eventually :)
timotimo yeah, i think that's been the case for a couple of years now 19:04
maybe even ten?
quad_ what language has the best jit nowadays?
sjn as for development environment, you may want to take a look at Comma, a Perl 6 IDE that Edument are making. That one has refactoring support even, but while still being in beta, I hear good things of it (haven't tried it myself though) 19:05
quad_: Java's JRE is veery mature, and with some careful crafting can produce lightningly fast code 19:06
quad_ then,,,,oerl6 having java output was good 19:07
timotimo i'm not sure if luajit is ahead of or behind java right now, but i seem to recall it was incredibly fast as well
and then there's the javascript VM that more and more work is being poured into every day 19:08
quad_ sjn: what crafting?
timotimo but since people are still super excited about wasm and such, it's probably not at the same level as java JRE
sjn quad_: careful use of typing, for example
quad_ what happened to Perl 6 java backend?
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timotimo lack of volunteers to keep it fresh 19:09
moritz bitrot
sjn quad_: a problem with the "execution speed" thing is that if you want things to go really fast you have to "go native" and depend on some pretty crazy CPU and caching features 19:11
if your problem domain doesn't mind this, then go ahead :) 19:12
it helps to be honest about how important execution speed actually is. if you're doing large-scale simulations, you may want to pick another language/toolchain 19:14
if you're making public-facing network services that can't be cached, then pick something else than Perl 6
quad_ simulation it is 19:15
sjn For CPU-heavy (or CUDA/etc hardware) simulations, I would probably pick another language at the moment 19:17
Haven't heard of anyone working on making those things faster, though I can't claim to know everything that's going on here :) 19:18
quad_: if speed is important, there's another Perl 6 option though :) 19:19
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sjn quad_: Implement what you need in Perl 6, make sure to report your findings here, and help make Perl 6 faster :-D 19:20
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timotimo yeah, it's not totally uncommon that specific speed deficiencies get patched up in half a day 19:21
sjn it's all volunteer work (like most Open Source projects), so taking charge of improving a featureset is something lots of people will appreciate :)
timotimo well, it's like 80% volunteer work
quad_ yes, I know 19:22
sjn so in some ways, asking "what is popular" or "best" isn't the best question to ask in #perl6 – it's better to ask "what features/qualities do I need, and how can I help improve these"
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sjn there's still enough to improve that this way of thinking can give lots of benefits 19:23
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sjn but it assumes that the other things (dev speed, feedback/debug/dev loop, language features) are good enough for your needs 19:24
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sjn (personally, I think Perl 6 is doing quite well in these regards) 19:25
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sjn quad_: ...but this decision is very much depending on you, and your $company's needs 19:26
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sjn quad_: does this help you in any way? 19:28
quad_ it could 19:29
just exploring
sjn well, feel free to ask away if you have more specific questions
we're glad to share opinions, but if you want to make a more informed decision it helps to be specific :) 19:30
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quad_ other question 19:44
is the bytecode of moar is just mast encoded? 19:45
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sjn quad_: not sure what you mean about "mast encoded"? 20:02
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sjn are you talking about Moar's abstrat syntax tree, or about an encoding? (I'm not enough into the guts of MoarVM, but I'm pretty sure "encoding" isn't the right word to use here. I might be wrong though) 20:03
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meuirkat any good reads on nativecall? 20:07
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moritz docs.perl6.org/language/nativecall 20:10
maybe not a Grisham level read 20:11
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meuirkat conan doyle? 20:16
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Skarsnik modules, App::GPTrixie 20:17
or whatever bot is that xD 20:18
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timotimo i'm slightly surprised we even still have the mast output stage, i thought we trnaslate QAST directly to mbc now 20:20
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cpan-p6 New module released to CPAN! Getopt-Long (0.0.3) by 03LEONT 20:25
New module released to CPAN! Path-Finder (0.1.0) by 03LEONT
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Geth ecosystem: b99405587c | (Leon Timmermans)++ | META.list
Moved several leont modules to CPAN
 20:31
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moritz leont++ 20:36
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cpan-p6 New module released to CPAN! App-Prove6 (0.0.8) by 03LEONT 20:40
New module released to CPAN! TAP (0.0.8) by 03LEONT
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leont Who does the next rakudo star? 21:52
El_Che github.com/rakudo/star/issues/124 21:53
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leont Thanks 21:58
Though it 22:02
's still unclear who of the two will do it :-p
El_Che it looks like a commitee
maybe it's a good thing, bus factor and so on 22:03
leont .tell clarkema I split up App::Prove6 from TAP::Harness, so the former should also be added to Rakudo Star 22:04
yoleaux leont: I'll pass your message to clarkema.
leont .tell hankache I split up App::Prove6 from TAP::Harness, so the former should also be added to Rakudo Star
yoleaux leont: I'll pass your message to hankache.
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TreyHarris What's my best bet for a library if I just want to get latitude and longitude of major cities for doing astronomical calculations? The ones in ecosystem appear to all be either deprecated or for for-pay services without a (non-trial) free tier. (There's a weather module that can return coordinates for cities, but it's quite old and this seems like a silly way to go about it.) I'm fine using an Inline or a 23:03
simple JSON API if that's the best way to go about it
I don't need anything fancy in terms of the Perl 5 Geo::Coder::... modules' capabilities 23:04
timotimo have you considered openstreetmap?
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TreyHarris timotimo: I was considering using either it or Geo::Coder::Free using inline perl5, but I've never had this need before so I don't know how to assess one over another 23:05
timotimo i haven't needed something like this before either
TreyHarris I'll give openstreetmap a try
hahainternet i've used geonames for this, just a downloadable database
not sure how their webservice fares 23:06
TreyHarris hahainternet: ah? let me take a look.
OpenCage has a free tier and there's a native Perl6 library, but it doesn't work 23:07
hahainternet TreyHarris: yeah, although i don't know of any useful modules to help i'm afraid 23:08
TreyHarris (Seems like an issue for a lot of these in Perl 5, too: the module doesn't work with the current API.)
hahainternet (always add a version path or use http facilities to version your APIs :p) 23:09
TreyHarris hahainternet: do you have a link? I'm clicking around but not finding the downloadable database
Oh, nm, I'm blind. download.geonames.org/export/dump/ 23:10
hahainternet there are some collections too with different levels of detail 23:11
if you want the top 50,000 cities for example
ah, lower on that same page in fact :) 23:12
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