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weekly Rakudo status meetings with phase transitions: Tue 19:00 UTC | IR clogs at irclog.perlgeek.de/phasers/today Set by moderator on 5 December 2010. |
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| colomon | o/ | 19:00 | |
| TimToady | \\ö | ||
| Util | ~~ | ||
| TimToady | looks like Util is under water | 19:01 | |
| colomon | Perl 6: Now our line noise is Unicode friendly! | ||
| Util | Finished replacing badly leaking water heater 10 minutes ago | ||
| TimToady | ooh, I got it right! | 19:02 | |
| Util | :) | ||
| diakopter | my report: tons of progress on porting pm's regex engine; lots more stuff is functional. :) | 19:03 | |
| TimToady | .oO(a water heater that is leaking badly would not leak much at all...) |
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| Util | Doh! | 19:03 | |
| diakopter | *poorly | ||
| TimToady | "My water heater is leaking well today." | 19:04 | |
| colomon | stupid adverbs | ||
| TimToady apologizes if a pun war breaks out now | |||
| colomon | diakopter++ | 19:05 | |
| my report: Did Advent post on sequences. Feel like the spec is definitely nicer now, it seemed easy to explain. TimToady++ .eor | 19:07 | ||
| moritz_ also did some p6advent stuff. EOR. | 19:08 | ||
| colomon | moritz_++ also kept Rakudo up with the latest (?) Parrot | 19:09 | |
| moritz_ | a two-line patch, not really news worthy | 19:10 | |
| Util | My report. Attended PDS. Gathering thoughts for Advent cal. Q1q. EOR | 19:11 | |
| pmichaud | good afternoon, #phasers | 19:13 | |
| PerlJam | <report>doing nothing Perl 6 related except conversing on #parrot/#perl6. preparing for p6advent2010 posts</report> | ||
| pmichaud: greetings. how goes? | 19:14 | ||
| pmichaud | things are fine | ||
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| moritz_ | we still need a volunteer for the advent calendarm for Thursday | 19:15 | |
| masak catches up in the backlog | 19:16 | ||
| my report: did advent post about lexical variables. got non-mean comment on proggit about it. \\o/ still mulling over S24 draft (testing). eor | 19:18 | ||
| pmichaud | my report: mulling over lots of stuff :) | ||
| moritz_ | masak: feel free to share early | ||
| masak | nod. | ||
| as soon as I have something written down. | |||
| pmichaud | no! we want it before you write it down!!! | 19:19 | |
| diakopter | pmichaud: I'm in a cubemeeting but can you talk in 20min? | ||
| masak | ooh, speaking of sharing, some of my energy is currently diverted into preparing Big Announcement, due Friday. | ||
| pmichaud | diakopter: I'm actually about to depart in the next 10 min :( | 19:20 | |
| ...big announcement? Perl related? | |||
| masak | pmichaud: yes. Perl 6. | 19:21 | |
| I pre-announced it a month ago. | |||
| pmichaud | ummmm, I missed it then :| | 19:22 | |
| masak | been dropping clues at 10-day intervals since. | ||
| PerlJam | masak: "my employer has decided to fund Perl 6 development by paying both Patrick Michaud and Jonathan Worthington to work on it full time for the next year" ;) | ||
| masak | that *would* be kinda nice. | ||
| no, you'll just have to wait. three more days. | 19:23 | ||
| moritz_ | can we do anything to un-stall rakudo development? | 19:24 | |
| PerlJam | masak: "I've figured out how to make Rakudo go *fast* and here are the patches to prove it" :-) | ||
| masak | PerlJam: you overestimate me in flattering ways. | ||
| colomon | what moritz_ said. | 19:25 | |
| (Not that I'm not excited about the Big Announcement, mind you.) | |||
| masak | moritz_: set a time-based goal, like Rakudo Star? | ||
| moritz_ | masak: that allone doesn't help | 19:26 | |
| masak | I think the biggest reason it feels like Rakudo development has stalled is that the two core devs are busy doing other things. | 19:27 | |
| moritz_ | probably | ||
| colomon | There are several of us capable of doing "routine" development work, but there doesn't seem to be any goal to work toward at the moment. | ||
| moritz_ | except "implementing Perl 6", of course :-) | 19:28 | |
| pmichaud | we should probably see about addressing some of the rt queue | ||
| PerlJam | identifying the LHF and "challenging" people to pick it might be good | ||
| colomon | identifying LHF alone would be a great start. | 19:29 | |
| masak | moritz_: there are benefits to identifying "natural next step" features along that path. | ||
| PerlJam | it doesn't even have to be LHF ... it could be "fruit that needs a small step ladder to reach" | ||
| Util | This topic fits in with my earlier-queued question. | 19:30 | |
| I suspect that Rakudo Star would get more early adopters if pre-compiled packages were available for major platforms. | |||
| I think jnth did a Win32 .msi for the first R*, but nothing after. | |||
| I am looking into .dmg or .pkg for OS X, but welcome anyone to wants to get it done faster than I can. | |||
| Of course, we need a commitment from someone for each platform to build a package the day of each release | |||
| (or provide the release manager with a fool-proof procedure). | 19:31 | ||
| Any thoughts? | |||
| PerlJam | Util: I like it. Fool-proof procedures + access to the major platforms could lower the barrier to entry for building the packages and spread the work load. | 19:33 | |
| Util: can we get access to the major platforms? | |||
| colomon | I'd sure love to have a Win32 .msi available, because I'm hopeless at making Rakudo work under Windows. And I guess I could research what it would take to create a .dmg for OS X -- I certainly can build Rakudo there. | ||
| pmichaud | I think that .msi / win32 possibly should have a separate release manager | 19:34 | |
| Util | PerlJam: Several of us have OS X, and you can built .dmg or .pkg with native tools. | ||
| pmichaud | since it requires different platform and skills | ||
| PerlJam | Util: I have access to a macbook, but have no idea how to build a .dmg or .pkg on it. | 19:35 | |
| Util | I can do .zip on Win32 from MinGW, but I only have the free version of the MS compiler, and I think jnth said that only the paid version can generate .msi. | 19:36 | |
| pmichaud | anyway, +1 to identifying person/process for releasing R* prebuilds | ||
| Util | PerlJam: When I am done with my research, I should be able to write a process that you can follow for OS X, at least for .dmg. | 19:37 | |
| pmichaud | I think it's entirely possible/plausible to consider windows-distros as related/separate from the unix distro. | ||
| anyway, I have to run some errands again -- bbl (probably tomorrow sometime | |||
| ) | |||
| colomon | Util: are you on the problem for OS X, then, and I shouldn't worry about it? | 19:38 | |
| Util | pmichaud: certainly possible, in fact possible to consider *any* binary dist to be beyond R* scope, but I hope that it can all be done under R*'s roof. | ||
| pmichaud | Util: I fear that might overtask a release manager. | 19:39 | |
| Util | colomon: For the figure-it-out part, for OS X, yes, I am on it. | ||
| pmichaud | and drastically limit the scope of candidates. | ||
| PerlJam | Util++ | ||
| pmichaud | I'm fine with it being under R* roof; I just think delegation wins | ||
| Util | pmichaud: point well taken. Volenteer binary packagers for day-after, then. | 19:40 | |
| pmichaud | right | ||
| colomon | Util: if you can figure out the how, I can probably do the actual work for some/many/all the R* releases. | ||
| Util | colomon++ ; great! | ||
| pmichaud | anyway, gotta run -- bbl | ||
| moritz_ | me too, if somebody sends me a mac :-) | ||
| colomon | afk # errands | 19:42 | |
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| diakopter | what'd I miss | 19:49 | |
| ok, nothing | 19:51 | ||
| Util | diakopter: irclog.perlgeek.de/phasers/2010-12-07 | ||
| diakopter | yeah, um, thanks for nothing; I've been here the whole time | ||
| Util | discussion of pre-packaged R* binaries for Win32 and OS X | ||
| diakopter: then I am confused, but that is fine. | 19:52 | ||
| diakopter | I was at first making light conversation, then I made light of the conversation | ||
| Util | Thx, confusion resolved. | 19:53 | |
| afk, bbl | 19:59 | ||
| jnthn | hi - sorry I missed #phasers | 20:00 | |
| sorear | hi - this is what I get for not preposting | ||
| diakopter | me too. I had plenty of questions for the 10 min of pmichaud | 20:01 | |
| jnthn | I meant to preport, but got dragged off to $onsite... | ||
| masak | preportuous! | 20:02 | |
| TimToady | y'all can postreport instead | ||
| jnthn | masak: :P | ||
| Well, this wake I mostly slept badly, refactored stuff in nqpclr, watched diakopter++ do good stuff, refactored opcode bits to help towards native type handling later, but also getting some code-gen wins now. | 20:03 | ||
| er, this week. | |||
| ...appropriate typo was appropriate... | 20:04 | ||
| sorear | DID: | ||
| - more random optimizations: STD-on-niecza is now 4x faster than the viv version, but I'm hitting dimishing returns *hard* | |||
| masak | sorear++ | ||
.oO( dwimmish returns ) |
20:05 | ||
| sorear | - Cleaned out the bug queue except for "no submethods" | ||
| TimToady | are there places we can be more type-specific in STD that would result in better optimizations? | ||
| masak | sorear: as things settle down after Friday, I'll get back to trying out niecza and submitting bug tickets. | 20:06 | |
| TimToady | .oO(he didn't say *how* he cleans out the bug queue...) |
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| sorear | - Now using an actual binder, rather than open-coding - junctions are within reach | ||
| - Started playing with use :from<dotnet> technology. | 20:07 | ||
| EOR | |||
| masak | \\o/ | ||
| sorear | TimToady: my attempts at profiling so far have mostly blamed Regex.ACCEPTS and the various list-assignment helpers | ||
| TimToady: so I think the biggest important thing I can do is to find a faster way to implement $foo ~~ /^\\w/ | 20:08 | ||
| and related constructs | |||
| right now, Regex.ACCEPTS tries every possible start position until one succeeds | 20:09 | ||
| diakopter | ? | ||
| sorear | and then the regex autofails if pos != 0 | ||
| TimToady | you mean it doesn't even anchor on ^? | ||
| sorear | TimToady: ^ is treated as a zero-width assertion | ||
| (I'm getting horrible lag to host02 atm, is it just me?) | 20:10 | ||
| TimToady | should probably turn into a call that knows it shouldn't scan | ||
| I seem fine | |||
| diakopter | (me too) in pm's regex engine, it pushes a backtrack that fails when returned to, then passes if po==0 | 20:11 | |
| TimToady | maybe San Diego is being routed through China :) | 20:12 | |
| diakopter | (and that pushed backtrack point is on top of scan's backtrack points) | ||
| TimToady | the default in the STD engine is that everything is anchored to the current position | 20:13 | |
| so scanning has to be done outside the .parse, as it were | |||
| diakopter | I haz teh lag too | 20:14 | |
| TimToady | echo lag or message lag? | ||
| diakopter | irssi-reported lag | ||
| [Lag: 5.43] | 20:15 | ||
| TimToady | prolly just a DDOS from the Pythonistas... | ||
| diakopter | but my connection to host02 from our 30Gb/s network is quite fine | ||
| diakopter imagines sorear fixing .parse to know about a separate stack of anchor cutpoints | 20:17 | ||
| sorear | TimToady: echo lag for me | 20:18 | |
| TimToady | I'm getting a pretty consistent ping time of about 1/2 second to host02 | ||
| which is odd | |||
| sorear | TimToady: niecza is the same way - regex functions always anchor to the curret position, so ACCEPTS has to scan | 20:19 | |
| and ACCEPTS doesn't know anything about the regex - they're opaque subs - so it has to scan in the worst way | |||
| diakopter | Reply from 209.9.237.164: bytes=32 time=77ms TTL=48 | ||
| TimToady | Oh, wait, it's not 1/2 sec, it's 0.500 ms | 20:21 | |
| diakopter | heh | ||
| that's even odder | |||
| TimToady | well ~.5 | ||
| diakopter | that's faster than the speed of light | 20:22 | |
| TimToady | ms, not µs | ||
| sorear | ping is being very odd | 20:25 | |
| 64 bytes from 209.9.237.164: icmp_seq=6 ttl=55 time=115 ms | 20:26 | ||
| 64 bytes from 209.9.237.164: icmp_seq=7 ttl=55 time=106 ms | |||
| there was a 3 second pause between these lines | |||
| TimToady | you aren't doing a compile in the background are you? | 20:27 | |
| you could get that from demand paging | |||
| diakopter | c is 186 miles/millisecond? so .. | ||
| TimToady | that's pinging host02 from 209.9.237.164 | 20:28 | |
| sorear | that just means TimToady is within 40 miles of the central US | ||
| diakopter | the server's in Virginia | ||
| TimToady | I was checking for internal network clogging | 20:29 | |
| traceroute gives me 9 hops to apflux | 20:31 | ||
| *pp | |||
| diakopter | o_O actually, interestingly (perhaps), the server is rather near Ft. Meade; maybe their Internet goes faster than c | 20:32 | |
| TimToady | but does it go faster than c++? | 20:33 | |
| diakopter | bah-dum | ||
| TimToady | ooh, after noon already, I should go and get dressed, so I can be clothed and in my right mind...or at least...clothed... | 20:34 | |
| sorear | anyways what I need is for ACCEPTS to somehow know what's in the regex | 20:37 | |
| so it can be scanned better | |||
| moritz_ | uhm | ||
| diakopter | a regex compiler | ||
| moritz_ | you're doing an ACCEPTS for every subrule call in the regex? | ||
| sorear | moritz_: no | 20:38 | |
| only for stuff like STD.pm6:5182 | 20:39 | ||
| that's one of the most expensive lines in STD, even after rewriting it to use a character class | |||
| moritz_ | sorear: it's only used to generate warnings, and can probably be left out as a start | 20:42 | |
| sorear: you could also move it further down, below all the other 'next if' lines | |||
| std: my $ | |||
| sorear | ENOP6EVAL | 20:43 | |
| moritz_ | just noticed :-) | ||
| oh, and you can anchor the regex, I believe | |||
| or is there a case where the sigil doesn't come at the start? | 20:44 | ||
| like OUTER::$x ? | |||
| sorear | OUTER::<$x> tends not to appear in lexpads | 20:45 | |
| TimToady | I suspect the lack of ^ there is an oversight | 20:48 | |
| but I did not suspect such code would be on the hot path | 20:49 | ||
| sorear | It wouldn't be if my implementation of freestanding regexes didn't suck ;) | 20:55 | |
| TimToady | well, I can understand that completely--P5 goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid calling into regexec | 21:13 | |
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