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[04:28] <disbot4> <melezhik.> Yeah

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[12:05] <lizmat> weekly: https://github.com/Raku/problem-solving/issues/519

[12:05] <notable6> lizmat, Noted! (weekly)

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[16:10] <librasteve_> SmokeMachine: a dumb question … is Grammar::Editor available in both web and TUI? If so can you explain how you apply the web “skin”? Also I am keen to add it formally to the https:raku.org/tools, but I am waiting for it to be released. Any plans on that?

[16:10] <tellable6> 2026-05-15T09:30:54Z #raku <apogee_ntv> librasteve: imo we should try to work out when most people are on and do HN posts in that time window, could give us a good shot of hitting front page more often?

[16:11] <librasteve_> apogee_ntv: good idea … probably afternoon in Europe and morning in CA, USA

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[17:52] <SmokeMachine> librasteve_: no, the TUI one is inside the Selkie::UI distro.

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[18:03] <SmokeMachine> At some point I’ll probably remove the grammar playground (TUI) from the Selkie::UI, and create a separate distro for that. And also update it to use Grammar::Extractor…

[18:03] <SmokeMachine> But I haven’t done that yet…

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[18:36] <librasteve_> SmokeMachine: ok … I will make a mental note to put Grammar::Editor on raku.org when you release it. (please jog my memory when that happens)

[18:38] <librasteve_> apogee_ntv: I would like to see Selkie (and Selkie::UI) on the raku.org/tools page … personally I am not too worried if they are pre-production provided that is clear on the repo / raku.land entry … please let me know if you feel they are ready for that level of attention

[18:39] <librasteve_> PS. even better would be a PR on https://github.com/Raku/raku.org (very easy - just markdown skills needed)

[18:40] <apogee_ntv> librasteve_: Would be nice yeah, I consider Selkie in beta but I don't think the user-facing API will change much before v1 unless I find a serious oversight. Most of what I'm doing now is consistency/perf tweaks.

[18:40] <apogee_ntv> I've been building a C shim in notcurses::native to allow more batching to pay the FFI tax less often, that kind of thing.

[18:41] <SmokeMachine> Sorry, what do you mean by grammar editor release? GrammarEditor (https://github.com/FCO/GrammarEditor) is the web version and because you put something like that on your server, I am planing on removing that from my VPS and I don’t plan to release that… on the other hand, the TUI grammar playground is already released inside the Selkie::UI distro…

[18:46] <SmokeMachine> Selkie::UI in other hand might still change a lot… but I think that’s already pretty useful the way it currently is.

[18:54] <librasteve_> OK, here’s my understanding - tell me if I have misunderstood. There may be some common parts between web and Selkie::UI versions of GrammarEditor, but to the consumer (me) they are two things.

[18:55] <SmokeMachine> Yes, they are 2 different things… at least for now…

[18:57] <librasteve_> Selkie and Selkie::UI are both on raku.land. They are not production status, but are already useful and can be shared. Grammar::Editor (TUI) is currently an example in Selkie::UI. I would like to see Grammar::Editor (TUI) as a new module on raku.land since I think Selkie and Selkie::UI are great things for raku “make a TUI” use case, but G::E is more of a “great way to have your users write and check input for you Raku 

[18:57] <librasteve_> Parser”

[18:59] <librasteve_> On the web side, that is a repo that makes a Dockerfile. I have forked (and adjusted) and I use it on slangify.org playground to illustrate Raku as a DSL solution. Your repo is upstream of mine and I can sync mine to consume any improvements.

[18:59] <librasteve_> I am not relying on your VPS - I am happy to maintain the Slangify instance.

[18:59] <SmokeMachine> Currently (what you are calling) Grammar::Editor (TUI) lives here as a bin on Selkie::UI: https://github.com/FCO/Selkie-UI/tree/main/bin

[19:02] <librasteve_> yep - that’s fine … but unless it is distributed as a new module, i can’t say “here is a great editor tool for your Raku Grammar”, all I can say is “there is a Selkie::UI example that you can use”

[19:03] <librasteve_> and I think having a standalone Grammar Editor tool is an important tool for folks making and sharing a DSL to non technical users

[19:04] <SmokeMachine> librasteve_: I think the version you are relying on has a problem on trace. I have created Grammar::Extractor (https://github.com/FCO/Grammar-Extractor) and updated my web version to use that… maybe it would worth you taking a look at it and maybe updating yours.

[19:06] <SmokeMachine> I think I’ll extract the grammar playground from Selkie::UI distro and create a Grammar::Playground distro.

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[19:10] <librasteve_> ok - I will consume that fix (but right now there are ~0 visitors to the site, so driving traffic is more urgent)

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[19:12] <librasteve_> I have one suggestion for the name (if I may) - for me a playground is a good name (like a sandbox) for non project work (ie exploring and so on) … like this https://langium.org/playground/

[19:15] <librasteve_> BUT for a team at a company to tell their management that they want to have a set of users to install a TUI so that they can develop their skills in a new custom DSL (eg Invoice DSL needs to be read and written by accountants and their LLMs) then playground is a bad name - better a serious name like “Grammar Editor tool” that they get via `zef install Grammar::Editor`

[19:17] <jjido> live editor

[19:18] <librasteve_> so it is imo excellent to have your “playground” as the service on slangify.org, but i propose use the name Grammar Editor for the TUI tool … and I guess should write a piece on how to implement your own hosted version on your intranet for those that prefer that with custom branding

[19:18] <librasteve_> yeah “live editor” even better!

[19:19] <apogee_ntv> imo the answer to TUI uptake (and this may not apply to dev tools) is partly not having to zef install anything, you want brew tap, deb PPA, AUR etc. End users shouldn't have to touch dev tooling for a lang they dont write.

[19:21] <librasteve_> okaay - any idea how we do that (and don’t say electron)

[19:22] <apogee_ntv> Yeah its essentially make .deb, .rpm for the main Linux distros and add them to private repositories, brew is similar, winget is similar but harder to get into. depends-on rakudo.

[19:23] <librasteve_> Selkie::Packager ?

[19:25] <apogee_ntv> Yeah something along those lines, I've been building packages manually which is a pain but not difficult.

[19:30] <librasteve_> not sure that you will get truly non tech folk even going `brew install GrammarEditor` but that’s definitely a step into the mainstream

[19:31] <librasteve_> Selkie::PWA ?

[19:32] <apogee_ntv> Yeah I mean truly non-tech folk is a different kettle of fish but most people who use TUIs are familiar with terminal-based package managers

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[19:32] <apogee_ntv> I'm more thinking tech but not raku folks

[19:33] <librasteve_> yeah - I agree

[19:35] <apogee_ntv> Then "this TUI I use every day" becomes "oh it's written in what?"

[19:44] <SmokeMachine> librasteve_: I called that playground because that’s “based” on swift playground (as Selkie::UI is “based” on Swift::UI)

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[20:10] <librasteve_> yeah, but Swift is a PL aimed at full on developers - whereas, a Grammar Editor tool is something that _could_ be used by “non-technical” users (eg Invoice DSL is used by accountants) … so imagine at your company, you said to senior management “I have this great idea for using LLM - we can read all the historic invoice documents (which are stored on 17 different document management systems, old pdf and scans in files, 

[20:10] <librasteve_> etc) and then use an LLM to check for any accounting fraud”

[20:12] <librasteve_> - but we need a couple of guys in accounting to train this LLM using this DSL - and they need to do this with a “playground” or they need to do this with a “grammar editor”

[20:13] <librasteve_> my argument is that this is an easier path if the name is more serious

[20:29] <SmokeMachine> I don't really agree with that argument... many "serious" things have "playful" names (and I think that should be encouraged)... otherwise we shouldn't use Camelia, go would not use their log, python projects names would not start with py, etc... But I'll think about that

[20:38] <librasteve_> quote from Martin Fowler (https://slangify.org/where) https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/g7ZPhNB4

[20:39] <librasteve_> ^^ I chose to use this quote on slangify since I think it is a great summary of the business value of DSLs

[20:43] <librasteve_> I think that Raku Grammars can become the best, most serious, most modern technology choice for businesses to build and employ DSLs - they have the USP that Grammar is a first class language construct - to achieve that we need a family of tools that can be used by the business users and a TUI is a much more limited tool to learn than a full IDE

[20:45] <librasteve_> so - please do consider that ;-) [on the other hand, while I hope I have explained what I see as the application for your code, it is of course your code and your name ;-) and I do not intend this to apply pressure, merely to convince you]

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