[00:17] now I remember, the only problem I got with RakuAST is the interpolation... [00:27] *** hankache_ joined [00:31] *** hankache left [01:55] m: class Expression { method Str { self } }; multi infix:<~>(Str() $left, Expression $right) { "SQL concat" }; say "prefix: { Expression.new }" [01:55] rakudo-moar e17a1d43b: OUTPUT: «SQL concat␤» [01:56] *** kylese left [01:57] in my machine it keeps breaking... could someone test that locally? [01:57] *** kylese joined [01:58] I keek getting this: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/iBQ6lXHD/image.png [02:02] *** lizmat left [02:15] *** kylese left [02:15] *** kylese joined [02:23] *** lizmat joined [03:18] *** stanrifkin_ joined [03:19] *** stanrifkin_ left [03:21] *** stanrifkin left [05:08] *** vrurg joined [05:09] *** vrurg_ left [06:29] *** Sgeo left [06:39] *** hankache_ left [07:06] *** stanrifkin joined [08:01] *** nine_ left [08:01] *** nine joined [08:04] c: HEAD class Expression { method Str { self } }; multi infix:<~>(Str() $left, Expression $right) { "SQL concat" }; say "prefix: { Expression.new }" [08:04] lizmat, ¦HEAD(50379ea): «This type cannot unbox to a native string: P6opaque, Expression␤ in block at /tmp/WrikKPnEPQ line 1␤␤ «exit code = 1»» [08:07] looks like the new infix is invisible in interpolation [08:09] c: HEAD class Expression { method Str { self } }; multi infix:<~>(Str() $left, Expression $right) { "SQL concat" }; say "prefix: " ~ Expression.new" [08:09] lizmat, ¦HEAD(50379ea): «===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/FlJuRdNEXR␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/FlJuRdNEXR:1␤------> ncat" }; say "prefix: " ~ Expression.new"␤ «exit code = 1»» [08:09] c: HEAD class Expression { method Str { self } }; multi infix:<~>(Str() $left, Expression $right) { "SQL concat" }; say "prefix: " ~ Expression.new [08:09] lizmat, ¦HEAD(50379ea): «SQL concat␤» [08:24] https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/6860 [08:33] W [09:35] >but at the same time it makes me feel like not being good/smart enough to finish my own work… [09:35] IMO mysql driver is the thing that llm should be good at and humans not necessarily [09:36] because humans would get assumptions from implementing previous drivers [09:37] while LLM wouldn't, and given any implementation of the previous driver, it should be able to translate technologies [09:37] s/should/might/ [09:37] Voldenet, rakudo-moar 50379ea28: OUTPUT: «Use of uninitialized value $_ of type Any in string context.␤Methods .^name, .raku, .gist, or .say can be used to stringify it to something meaningful.␤ in block at /tmp/UXtVCYFD74 line 1␤» [09:39] especially when driver in e.g. php exists [09:40] though still, with good instructions and well-thought architecture output would be better [10:07] LLM could also get those assumptions since it'll be trained on all the other drivers. [10:08] I don't feel the same way tbh because I know I'm defeated by time much more than ability. There's nothing in Selkie I couldn't write manually, I wrote notcurses applications for a decade but never had the time to put into making the framework I wanted. [10:09] I expect the same is true for both of you. If you had to do it without AI and you had infinite time you would be able to. [10:10] What AI does more than anything is compresses and offloads the time requirement. [11:11] *** samebchase joined [11:12] *** samebchase left [11:33] *** samebchase joined [11:59] *** fdp left [12:17] I mean, assumptions from mssql don't necessarily translate to mysql [12:17] example is how param bindings are positional in mysql, named in mssql [12:19] Oh right, yeah what I meant is the LLM will look for i.e. 'the mssql driver in Python' and copy assumptions from that, not from the adjacent raku mysql driver. [12:19] indeed, most coders don't do that [12:24] Thats how I would generally have approached the problem but I guess if you assume sql is sql you wouldn't think to. [12:25] "the mssql driver in Python' and copy assumptions from that," which potentially introduces licensing issues [12:26] Possibly, idea-expression distinction *should* cover most of it. [12:31] with the introduction of AI, we've abandoned the concept of software licenses [12:32] sadly it's the state of things [12:32] No I mean even historically, copyright protects your expression of an idea, not the idea itself. [12:33] The code is more protected than the general means by which you solved the problem. [12:33] I mean, agents get fed proprietary code every day [12:34] it's pretty obvious [12:34] If I allocate a 128 byte buffer, it doesn't obligate everyone who's read my code to solve the problem without allocating a 128 byte buffer. [12:35] *** lizmat left [12:36] Oh for sure. [12:36] My agents definitely do but they run locally or on ZDR endpoints. [12:37] on the other hand, if you allocate N 128 byte buffers for json deserialization, it could be considered novel [12:37] despite it being mostly just allocation, depending on the algorithm [12:37] Possibly yes. It could cross from being 'the idea' (deserialize JSON) to 'the expression' (novel method of deserializing JSON). [12:38] though people have patented pretty crazy things [12:38] I guess the difference is historically if I got ideas from Django I'd know I got ideas from Django and probably put in the readme 'This bit of code is inspired by Django (XYZ license)' whereas now I have no idea where that inspiration came from. [12:39] or the comments [12:39] like one-click purchase in amazon [12:39] Even with very permissive licenses that allow derivative work, I'd know 'this license allows derivative work' because I had to go find the work I was deriving from. [12:40] ah, this actually happened with lzw in gif iirc [12:41] Like Selkie derives a *lot* from re-frame. [12:41] Not so much the code but the API [12:41] is heavily inspired [12:43] re-frame itself is MIT [12:43] so I doubt it'd be a problem if it's even copied 1:1 [12:43] I do wonder if one could copy the api from the MIT without mentioning it at all [12:44] though it'd be practical to say that it's reused from X, so people could look for design patterns in that other library too [12:44] It is mentioned in the as-yet unreleased 0.99 readme, cant remember if its mentioned in the 0.16 one (which is far less close to it). [12:52] That was part of the aim in 0.99, get much closer to re-frame's API instead of being similar enough to be confusing where different (also useful with LLMs which are accustomed to re-frame patterns). [13:04] Though obviously web framework doesn't translate 1:1 to TUI framework. [13:05] *** ShimmerFairy left [13:22] *** acidsys joined [13:22] *** lizmat joined [13:35] *** ShimmerFairy joined [13:42] *** kylese left [13:42] *** scott2 left [13:42] *** Pixi left [13:42] *** coleman left [13:42] *** kjp left [13:42] *** cm left [13:48] *** kylese joined [13:48] *** scott2 joined [13:48] *** Pixi joined [13:48] *** coleman joined [13:48] *** kjp joined [13:48] *** cm joined [13:51] For experienced programmers LLMs / AI-agents are amplifiers and/or "force multipliers". For anything "protocolish" or repetitive AI-agents would be always faster and better (on average.) [14:12] *** acidsys left [14:32] nope, not better [14:32] I don't avoid assembly because compilers make great code, it's because I'm lazy ;p [14:37] *** ShimmerFairy left [14:39] *** ShimmerFairy joined [15:10] Hm... do you think you can write faster a better Raku package for using, say, OpenAIs API than, say, Codex or Gemini AI-agents with their OpenAI's or Google's newest LLMs? [15:19] Compilers do generally optimize well though. I occasionally manually write assembly (definitely don't get agents to do that, they tend to be very bad at it) but it's rare. [15:30] SmokeMachine: have you considered having Expression.Str return something stringy ? [15:30] cause that would(also) solve the issue [15:31] I need that to not return a Str, but an Red::AST... I use that to create my SQL query... [15:31] or is there a deeper reason why you want to handle that through the infix? [15:31] ah, ok [15:31] understood [15:33] would you infix be able to handle more than 2 args ? [15:33] *your [15:33] *** Sgeo joined [15:39] lizmat: it receives 2 by 2... https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/LjMLuJJT/image.png [15:40] *** ilogger2 left [15:48] *** ShimmerFairy left [15:50] *** ilogger2 joined [15:50] *** ShimmerFairy joined [16:16] *** vrurg_ joined [16:18] *** vrurg left [16:27] *** Sgeo left [16:38] <.landyacht.> Has anyone noticed a bug where stack traces are flat out wrong when the code in question is run via a code object? I have my own threadpool implementation and I'm getting useless stack traces even when the exception is thrown and caught within the code submitted to the threadpool [16:39] do you also see that with the own-up functionality ? [16:39] <.landyacht.> own-up meaning what? Sorry, not familiar with that term yet [16:42] <.landyacht.> I more or less have CATCH { default { say .gist } } within the code submitted to the threadpool and the .gist points (roughly, some line numbers are weird) to where the threadpool calls into the submitted code object [16:43] <.landyacht.> but then the order of the stack trace is weird too, so I think it's just getting confused [16:44] <.landyacht.> oh sorry, you were probably responding to someone else there :^) [16:44] ah, not documented :-( [16:44] sorry, what's own-up? [16:45] https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/main/lib/own-up.rakumod [16:46] also more directly, by calling VM.own-up [16:48] lizmat: was that question for me? Sorry, I'm still lost... [16:48] SmokeMachine: working on a fix :-) [16:48] thanks! :) [16:58] *** pierrot left [17:01] SmokeMachine: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/6868 [17:01] *** Sgeo joined [17:02] \o/ thanks! [17:07] *** pierrot joined [17:12] *** tgt joined [17:56] *** tgt left [17:59] *** tgt joined [18:16] *** tgt left [20:05] *** lizmat left [20:05] *** lizmat_ joined [20:36] *** hankache_ joined [20:36] *** stanrifkin left [20:56] *** stanrifkin joined [21:18] *** jjido joined [21:30] *** hankache_ left [21:31] *** hankache joined [21:32] *** vasko453558616 left [21:33] *** vasko453558616 joined [21:51] RakuIRCLogger [21:51] *** lizmat_ left [21:52] *** lizmat joined [21:57] *** hankache left [22:02] *** stanrifkin left [22:24] *** jjido left [23:23] *** rir joined [23:25] Where to make an issue about https://raku.org/ content?