TimToady though the whole conversion design was defective insofar as it forgot which was the real type and which was the cache 00:00
timotimo good night o/ 00:02
(maybe i'll write the weekly tomorrow ...)
TimToady o/
japhb o/
TimToady: I don't often care about that conversion design defect, but when it rears its head, it can be *very* strange. JSON serialization is one place I remember it being an issue, because whether the serializer output 42 or "42" for some value could depend on whether you had a debug print of that data. Which drives devs nuts. 00:05
TimToady ayup
p6 makes different mistakes
japhb
.oO( Add debugging, break program worse than it originally was ... )
00:19 jnap joined 01:14 jnap joined 01:26 FROGGS_ joined 01:47 ilbot3 joined 03:48 lue joined 08:17 FROGGS joined 08:26 brrt joined
jnthn brrt++ # blog post 08:29
brrt thanks :-) 08:30
timotimo++ for spotting a grammar error
ugh, people on the internet believe msvc doesn't have link-time optimization 08:31
people on the internet are wrong :-o 08:32
masak where's brrt++'s blog post? 08:34
jnthn They might have been right once upon a time :P
brrt brrt-to-the-future.blogspot.nl/20a14/08/names-and-labels.html
masak also, "someone is wrong on the internet". :)
brrt but they wrote it just today
masak btyler: thanks.
jnthn brrt: Then, they're wrong
masak er, brrt: thanks.
nwc10 brrt: s/20a14/2014/ 08:35
masak also, when '' is missing from the beginning, I have to copy+paste rather than just click ;) 08:36
(kthx)
moritz poor masak
masak :P
nwc10 blogspot is Google?
brrt yeah, sorry, usually chrome inserts the http for me
masak nwc10: aye.
brrt nods
masak brrt: and almost never inserts an 'a'? ;) 08:37
nwc10 shouldn't they start supporting gopher:// because, well, Go. :-)
brrt huh, that's weird
nwc10 I find firefox extremely annoying in that it show me the URL without http:// but if I copy paste I get http:// too
brrt brrt-to-the-future.blogspot.nl/2014...abels.html
brrt was just doing it wrong
nwc10 firefox-- # does not support gopher either 08:38
moritz brrt++ # blog, AND MOARVM JIT!!!!
masak brrt++ # !!!!! 08:39
brrt :-D
moritz sorry for shouting, but I feel it had to be said :-)
masak or shouted
brrt \o/ 08:40
yeah, i'm very happy about it too
jnthn It is awesome. :) 08:42
brrt also, don't forget that it wouldn't have happened without jnthn++ timotimo++ lizmat++ woolfy++ 08:44
FROGGS so now we've done this... everybody has to write about fifty modules until Christmas and we are done! 08:51
brrt uh, yeah :-) 08:53
FROGGS brrt: are you doing the SOAP stuff? :D
brrt fuuuu 08:54
i've done enough SOAP for a lifetime already
nwc10 how are the Perl 6 IRC bots coming along?
brrt although i think perl6-for-async-io should be beginning to be awesome by now
masak I definitely want to do Perl 6 IRC bots. in my copious spare time. 09:05
my YAPC::EU talk this year is partly about that. 09:06
moritz hopes that Sofia doesn't plunge into a similar chaos as Kiev did after the last YAPC::EU 09:07
autopun of the day: t.co/pFMF4tfm6V 09:10
brrt lol 09:14
much sad
last YAPC::EU was in kiev? 09:16
nwc10 YAPC::Europe 2013 was in Kiev. First YAPC::Europe ouside of the EU 09:17
act.yapc.eu/ye2013/
brrt o
well, let's hope bulgaria wil be a bit more stable
brrt bbiab 09:23
09:23 brrt left
jnthn Hm, wasn't there a YAPC in Oslo? 09:24
That'd count of outside of EU too. 09:25
*as
masak makes a mental note to collect autopuns in the backlog of #moarvm, too 09:26
09:34 brrt joined
brrt thinks we should have a mojo6 09:35
nwc10 jnthn: no. other conferences are available 09:37
specifically, I think that there have been QA hackathons and Scandinavian Perl Workshops there 09:38
and the whatever-it-was hackathon in 2012
jnthn Yes, very much so
I somehow thought one of the YAPCs before I started going to them had been there. But no, you're right 09:39
moritz would love to got a YAPC in Oslo, but probably couldn't afford it
s/got/go to/
moritz likes Oslo
nwc10 has not been to Oslo
10:06 Ven joined 10:32 colomon joined 12:39 jnap joined
[Coke] moar-jit failed 2 more tests than moar. 13:21
(still have to finish parrot & jvm before I can push)
14:12 colomon joined 14:42 ggoebel1111115 joined
carlin [Coke]: are they flappy tests? 14:54
15:07 brrt joined
brrt [Coke] - with moar-jit, i assume you mean master with jit enabled? 15:08
also.... what modules are breaking? i kind of like to know about all breaking code :-) 15:19
rurban Sofia looks like the least stable european country nowadays, right after Kosovo. I wont go 15:35
Well, Bulgaria, the country
odc rurban, www.passportandatoothbrush.com/sofi...rn-europe/ 16:07
a different perspective
16:31 brrt joined
[Coke] (flappy) I don't have any previous runs to compare it against. :) 17:30
jnthn evevning, #moarvm 17:39
[Coke] I misread. moar-jit is the best moar. fails 2 less tests thanm oar.
nwc10 [Coke]: I'm suspicious that the differences are flapping. But, obviously I can't prove this 17:40
lizmat a good evevning to you too, jnap
[Coke] brrt++ # et al.
lizmat jnthn
:-)
nwc10 jnthn: what is with this heresy? :-)
jnthn nwc10: I dunno, maybe the beer on the way home? :)
[Coke] nwc10: well, we'll have a better idea in a few days.
in the meantime, I think the fact moar-jit isn't failing anything moar isn't in spec tests is pretty good. 17:41
jnthn [Coke]: Indeed.
[Coke] need to get around to adding timings for configure+build and spectests.
japhb jnthn: Are you thinking of having the JIT default-off or default-on for 2014.08? 17:44
jnthn japhb: Default off
japhb: I think we'll switch to default-on in the repo just after 2014.08 goes out 17:45
japhb And then on for 2014.09? Or is there some threshold you need to feel like it hit first?
Ah, OK
jnthn Then we'll just do it data-driven.
japhb Yeah, makes sense
jnthn We have enough people pulling/using HEAD to give us a good idea.
japhb right 17:46
[Coke] I should update my moar-non-jit build to pass in -disable-jit so i don't have to change anything when you switch the default, aye?
jnthn [Coke]: If such a flag exists :)
(If it doesn't we can make it do so)
japhb --no-enable-jit? --enable-jit=0?
jnthn Whatever fits best with what we have so far... 17:47
Maybe we should just make it --jit=0 and --jit=1
[Coke] perl Configure.pl --help in MoarVM doesn't mention jit.
japhb jnthn: While I like the terseness and clear boolean sense, it does have the problem of making it seem like it forces the jit on or off, rather than enabling it or disabling it. 17:49
jnthn japhb: How do you distinguish the two?)
(Genuinely curious; you're seeing a nuance I totally am missing... :))
japhb It's the difference between on/off where it is forced into one or the other state regardless of other factors, versus not-off/not-on when some other factor (an env var, or some automated tuning, or what have you) may make a late-bound decision. I fully admit that my thinking this way may be obtuse and/or unusual. 17:52
And it's not an overriding concern. Somewhat like the level at which it bugs TimToady when he can't find just the right name for something. 17:53
jnthn --jit-available=1|0 may do it? 17:54
But longer again :P
japhb jnthn: I'm really OK with --jit=0/1 or --jit/--no-jit, slightly prefer --enable-jit=0/1 or --enable-jit/--disable-jit, and don't really like the length of --jit-available=0/1. 17:56
rurban --with{,out}-jit wouild be the standard option. parrot also switch to --with{,out}-jit
jnthn (backlog) I note I'd feel rather safer in Sofia or Kosovo than in the gun-loving bit of the world rurban lives :P
rurban well, I'm privileged (white and rich). But basically your are right 17:57
That's why I'm moving back to a democracy in 2 months
jnthn
.oO( There's more than one way to democracy it... )
 17:59
japhb resists making about a dozen America jokes 18:00
rurban At least it gave me a refreshing perspective to the times my grandfather lived in
japhb rurban: Where exactly are you?
rurban Houston, TX 18:01
japhb Wow, that changes the meaning of your last several statements
rurban The town with the highest corruption (e.g. major elected for 2 years only) and executions, ... 18:02
japhb Hey, think positive: You could be in Florida. 18:03
rurban exactly
Mark Prather (peregrin's brother) is moving from Orlando to Houston, I heard. 18:04
tadzik hey, I felt safe in Florida 18:05
japhb tadzik: Orlando is for tourists. Well, mostly.
That and conventioneers
tadzik yeah, I barely stepped outside of Disneyworld :P
BinGOs that's like the Vatican, a different country. 18:06
tadzik heheh
japhb Years ago I lived in Rhode Island, a state that gave all its legislators a pittance of a salary (well below the poverty level) based on the belief that they should be doing it for the public good. It came as no surprise to basically anyone that public works projects were unbelievably corrupt. 18:07
TimToady I haven't noticed that legislators with large paychecks are any less corrupt. 18:33
pmichaud Texas legislators make $600/month. 18:35
japhb TimToady: There's the background level, then there's engineering the system to promote it.
pmichaud plus $150/day when the legislature is in session (140 days every two years)
japhb That's ... a very short legislative cycle. 18:36
pmichaud It is.
anyway, I don't think corruption here is at all linked to legislative pay.
all it means is that all of the legislators are independently wealthy
japhb
.oO( Maybe if we don't let them in the building, they can't make any laws! Tea Party Win! )
pmichaud Or, put another way... I don't think that changing Texas legislators' pay would have any effect on the politics or corruption here. 18:39
japhb That's perhaps just a special case of "once the damage is done, it takes a long time to undo it, even if you change conditions immediately" 18:42
pmichaud maybe. But one of our best paid politicians (the governor) is also one of the most "corrupt" (in the sense of acting contrary to the public good) 18:43
japhb Texas Governor, as with counterparts in California and New York, tends to attract people who see upward mobility as including a shot at the presidency. I'm not sure the failure case there bears on the legislator case. Then again, perhaps you are correct. 18:47
How did we get on this topic again?
Oh, right, walking in Sofia.
pmichaud I'm hoping we don't have another president from Texas for quite a while. 18:48
I can think of one thing much scarier than "President Rick Perry", though.
"President Ted Cruz". 18:49
japhb NODNOD 18:52
jnthn On the upside, you're both making MoarVM's deopt.c seem comparatively unscary by this point :P 19:00
jnthn figures he should work on something :) 19:04
Grr. Updating stage0 still doesn't quite get me a 30s build of nqp-m 19:06
(31.14s)
rakudo-m is darn close to under a minute too (62.09s) 19:09
FROGGS hehe
japhb has studiously avoided accomplishing much at all, but that's mostly because existing API in $work-codebase is has a large impedence mismatch with $new-feature, and it's going to take Some Thinking. 19:16
nwc10 jnthn: you are allowed to have a night off 19:24
dalek arVM: 63e039b | jnthn++ | src/mast/compiler.c:
Try to guess MAST output buffer sizes.

Can avoid a decent number of reallocs in large compilation units.		 19:25
19:28 rurban joined 19:39 brrt joined
nwc10 jnthn: PASS, but the usual sin, including the new increased sin 19:45
timotimo oh interesting 20:00
does that make stage mast fast?
jnthn timotimo: mbc, and that was already rather fast.
timotimo oh
d'oh ;)
jnthn It's not really perceptible on my box, but reallocs often mean copying, which needlessly hurts systems with lower memory bandwidth 20:01
timotimo aye
like an embedded device for example ... like the raspberry pi or tadziks phone 20:02
carlin re: length of jit option... GetOpt lets you pass the option as short is as needed to disambiguate it. So if the option was --jit-enable --jit would do the same thing (unless there was also a --jit-disable in which case you'd need to do at least --jit-e ...) 20:05
FROGGS that's "clever" 20:06
though that sounds a bit strange...
carlin perldoc.perl.org/Getopt/Long.html#C...reviations 20:09
dalek arVM: 2ea5a9d | (Bart Wiegmans)++ | src/jit/ (2 files):
Add unless_n and if_n

Note that NaN is regarded as truthy		 20:12
jnthn JIT moar things \o/
brrt is only writing in ASM from now on
nwc10 brrt: what do you mean by that? previously you were also writing in what? 20:13
brrt oh btw, jnthn, it looks like i'll be going to YAPC::EU after all :-)
in other languages, meant for mortals
jnthn brrt: Oh? Cool!
brrt :-P
yes, lizmat++ has sponsored me yet again
jnthn lizmat++
nwc10 woolfy++ # not stopping lizmat 20:14
lizmat++
brrt also that
:-)
jnthn woolfy++ indeed :)
brrt woolfy++ :-) 20:15
anyway, i'm really excited
nwc10 what's the last steps needed for GSoC? Some sort of final report, with a deadline when?
rurban www.google-melange.com/gsoc/events...e/gsoc2014
and www.google-melange.com/gsoc/docume...guidelines
for the code samples. we do it with a simple git log -p --author= 20:16
jnthn brrt: Yes, it'll be great to see you :)
nwc10 rurban: thanks
OK, fun, final deadline is the first day of YAPC::Europe. 20:17
brrt you too :-)
is that the final final deadline? i thought the soft deadline was yesterday and the hard deadline today?
eh not today
next week
nwc10 report deadline
don't screw up
brrt oh i see 20:18
i'll be dilligent
nwc10 aye. we'll steal all your beer at the pre-conference meetup if you haven't done it by then
[Coke] lizmat++ woolfy++ ! 20:19
nwc10 brrt: pass. except for the usual sin, including the new sin 20:37
brrt all our sins
dalek arVM: cd7d175 | (Bart Wiegmans)++ | src/jit/graph.c:
Add clone as a reprconv function

This is /slightly/ less efficient than the interpreted version, since that version can store the allocated object directly to a register, and the function cannot.		 20:39
arVM: 629fd54 | (Bart Wiegmans)++ | Configure.pl:
Mention --enable-jit as a Configure.pl option
 20:40
diakopter brrt: could dasc's format be translated to llvm's tblgen format? 20:48
brrt uhm
i've no idea really, because i have no idea what tblgen looks like
diakopter intro: llvm.org/docs/TableGen/index.html 20:49
it's good enough for llvm, as far as metacircular instructionset definition languages go 20:50
tadzik diakopter! \o/ 20:51
brrt basically, not natively, no
or easily 20:52
diakopter ok
brrt it seems designed for a different use case :-) 20:53
dalek arVM: a4c6eec | jnthn++ | src/io/procops.c:
Implement killing an async process.
 20:55
timotimo brrt: i'm still kinda wishing for a way to tell moar to open the jitlog for appending instead of just writing
jnthn my $proc_done = $proc.start;
await Promise.anyof($proc_done, Promise.in(2));
$proc.kill unless $proc_done;
Such cute :)
diakopter So kill
timotimo definitely cute :) 20:56
diakopter optimizer should try to determine if/when stuff will halt...
timotimo diakopter: i'd like to see the perl5 interop finished first :) 20:57
but if you want to implement that right now, that'd be interesting, too :D
brrt: in all of nqp, paramnamesused is at 903 bails, 326 bails for param_rp_o and 171 getlexstatic_o 20:58
diakopter timotimo: it was a joke on Halting Problem
timotimo yeah. and it'd be interesting if you implemented something that solves it :)
jnthn It's hard to know when to stop making such jokes... :P 20:59
brrt looks appropriately guilty for paramnameused and the like
timotimo :P
diakopter jnthn: 'tis true
timotimo when you implement these, we'll likely see a big wide spread of ops getting +1'd or +2'd or something like that :)
rakudo looks similar: 832 paramnamesused, 402 param_rp_o, 309 getlexperinvtype_o, 240 param_sn, 213 param_sp and 194 getlexstatic_o 21:01
interestingly, 90 scwbdisable which seems like a simple thing to do
and assignunchecked is also kind of worthy as it is at 66 bails and should be simple
jnthn stroll; bbiab 21:02
brrt very well, i'll get to it in time :-) 21:05
FROGGS this song would fit nicely here: James Darren - Just in Time 21:10
(and it really is an awesome song)
like frank sinatra, just better
tadzik probably knows :o) 21:11
ohh, brrt even!
brrt hmm? 21:12
i'm not at my most-awake i've been this day
tadzik what what :)
FROGGS james darren is the jazz singer in quark's holodeck
holosuite*
tadzik ooh, what was his character name... 21:14
brrt is that so? i can recall something of a jazz suite on the holodeck 21:15
tadzik Vic Fontaine!
FROGGS aye
brrt doesn't know that yet
and, i'm going to sleep, too :-) 21:16
see you tomorrow!
21:16 brrt left
jnthn back 21:35
timotimo oh, deletekey is pretty high on the bail list for rakudo 21:41
i can implement that!
jnthn timotimo: Do we get a p6weekly today? :) 21:42
timotimo i'd like to 21:47
er ... what ... Error while compiling op ifnull (source text: "nqp::ifnull($!nominal, 0)"): This representation (MVMString) does not support associative access 21:48
jnthn fail
Arguments passed wrongly to deletekey?
timotimo i re-used the code for existskey 21:49
oh
hehe.
jnthn Yes, which isn't void :P 21:50
timotimo i'm kind of distracted by some pain in my jaw region :\ 21:51
jnthn :( 21:52
timotimo it's likely to do with the ear infection i was just treating on the other side of my head ... 21:54
seems like it's spread 21:55
it's not dangerous or anything. but it's very, very annoying and distracting
oh well. i didn't get a clean diff for rakudo, but nqp got 86 less deletekey bails and 34 more argconst_s 21:57
the diff data i'm getting here is pretty ... weird 22:03
why would i have less bails for a given op after implementing an unrelated op ?! 22:07
interestingly enough, the amount of different bailing ops went down by exactly one 22:08
dalek arVM: 64ddf94 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | src/jit/graph.c:
moarvm jit can deletekey now!
 22:12
timotimo i don't know why a frame with "loadlib" would get called often enough that it gets spes'd and then jitted on top of that, but it's responsible for 16 bails across all of the rakudo compilation process 22:14
37 BAIL: op <objprimspec> 22:19
and that's with a spesh optimization that turns objprimspec into a const if we know the type ...
cxreg j-j-j-jitterbug 22:25
jnthn Well, if you're asking that question you're probably not in monomorphic code... 22:27
timotimo probably 22:28
maybe no weekly just yet
japhb jnthn: Took a quick glance at my old spawn-all-the-things script. Turns out for some of them, I need to feed the subprocesses on stdin. So that's a blocker to refactoring in terms of the new API. (Which is *not* pressure, just information.) 22:36
jnthn japhb: Sure. I did killing today, stdin writing isn't too hard now. 22:37
Probably tomorrow or Thu :) 22:38
japhb Oh, cool beans!
22:43 cognome joined 22:57 cognome joined 22:58 daxim_ joined 23:08 _sri joined
jnthn Time for some rest... 'night 23:18
timotimo gnite jnthn!
23:21 _sri joined 23:43 d4l3k_ joined

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