| timotimo | good luck! | 00:10 | |
| i've had a bit too much success with my last attempt at sleep :D | |||
| samcv | sorry jnthn and lizmat | 01:21 | |
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| brrt | good hi, #moarvm | 08:07 | |
| samcv | good hi! | ||
| nwc10 | good *, #moarvm | 08:08 | |
| brrt | no worries, comments happen and stuff | ||
| even jit compilers ultimately happen if you wait long enough | 08:09 | ||
| nwc10 | but in that case are they Just In Time? Or rather late? :-) | 08:12 | |
| don't worry. I'm here all week, but tomorrow is a public holiday (at least Between Keyboard and Chair) | |||
| samcv | it's always on time, because it's right in the name | ||
| just in time | |||
| you cannot dispute this | |||
| nwc10 | aha | ||
| therefore clearly good UGT everyone | 08:13 | ||
| samcv | no it's good 'hi' | ||
| nwc10 | er, it's also "good morning" | ||
| I thought | |||
| I'm confused | |||
| samcv | no that's what brrt said | ||
| <brrt> good hi, #moarvm | |||
| <samcv> good hi! | |||
| nwc10 | yes, I realised that much | 08:14 | |
| but clearly I failed to read it the first time | |||
| is it bedtime yet? | |||
| nine | .tell jnthn Mandatory reviews are not only good for QA but also help distributing knowledge around the team and grooming new developers. They might help MoarVM becoming less dependent on you. | ||
| yoleaux2 | nine: I'll pass your message to jnthn. | ||
| samcv | it's a little after midnight here | ||
| brrt guesess samcv's timezone to be asiatic | 08:15 | ||
| not australian, that'd be even later | |||
| samcv | no i live in california | 08:16 | |
| brrt | then it … ought to be considerable past midnight? | ||
| oh | |||
| no, i'm wrong | |||
| samcv | but new Zealand is 4 hours off from me, but on a different day | ||
| brrt | my timezone mental calculations are off | ||
| arnsholt | US eastern seaboard is CET-6, western is CET-9 =) | 08:17 | |
| samcv | -9... what | 08:18 | |
| it's -8 | |||
| arnsholt | CET, not GMT/UTC | ||
| brrt | also known as 'the one true timezone' | ||
| :-P | |||
| arnsholt | Obviously =) | ||
| (I *think* that's brrt's timezone as well, which is why I phrased it like that =) | 08:19 | ||
| nwc10 | UGT±* | ||
| brrt suggests introducing stardates | |||
| by the way. | |||
| samcv | how are stardates measured | ||
| brrt | spilling is finicky | ||
| with clocks | 08:20 | ||
| :-P | |||
| samcv | bad definition of time | ||
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| brrt wonders if it's worthwhile to create a cons for a spill consisting of (live-range, spill-number) | 08:23 | ||
| nm, i can just stash that in the live range object, and stash the spilled live ranges in an array | 08:27 | ||
| not necessary to do that, but good for debugging | |||
| ohai renamed masak | 08:32 | ||
| with regards to macro's, i have written some truly fearful stuff now | |||
| arnsholt | C preprocessor macros, or less insane macros? =) | 08:40 | |
| brrt | C preprocessor macro's of course | 08:49 | |
| my greatest source of pride is the __COMMA__ macro | |||
| arnsholt | I assume it expands to something other than a comma? =) | 09:08 | |
| nwc10 hasn't even got halfway through news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13319904 yet | 09:09 | ||
| brrt | it expands to a comma if defined as a comma, can also expand to something else | 09:37 | |
| jnthn yawns | 09:38 | ||
| yoleaux2 | 08:14Z <nine> jnthn: Mandatory reviews are not only good for QA but also help distributing knowledge around the team and grooming new developers. They might help MoarVM becoming less dependent on you. | ||
| brrt | i defined it as a | ||
| '|' to create a bitmap from enums at compile time | |||
| nwc10: the other side is that clearly the python community are doing things right, if they can convince so many people to put so much effort into their language; and they're doing something wrong, because none of that ever goes anywhere / becomes mainstream | 09:39 | ||
| how many alternative python implementations have we seen | |||
| nwc10 | "viele" | 09:40 | |
| how many have stuck around? | |||
| not "lots" | |||
| brrt | pypy… barely | ||
| nwc10 | I question why "barely" because I thought that it was doing OK, but I am an outsider looking in | 09:41 | |
| brrt | the project is doing fine, but uptake is still very low | ||
| nwc10 | I do find grumpy interesting, because a comment of someone (I think I know who, but I don't want to attribute wrongly or leakily) was that Google stopped Unladen Swallow partly because their (other) investment in PyPy had delivered a lot of speed | ||
| (The other reason I suspect was because concurrency wasn't going to work out in Unladen Swallow) | 09:42 | ||
| anyway, yes, pypy still hanging in there | |||
| dropbox not yet using Pyston in production | |||
| (Clearly their goal is C API compatibility) | |||
| arnsholt | nwc10: There's a link in that HN discussion to a YouTube video with Armin Ronacher talking about how CPython internals leak into Python user-space | ||
| Very interesting | |||
| nwc10 | whilst IronPython and Jython appear to have stuck around long enough for firms to use them | 09:43 | |
| and now cause problems beacuse they're on historical versions with now escape path | |||
| arnsholt: thanks, not spotted that | |||
| will find it and watch it | |||
| (later, when not at work) | |||
| brrt | not spotted either, will watch as well | ||
| jnthn ran into Jython in the wild at $big-company, for whatever that data point is worth | 09:44 | ||
| nwc10 | well, it means I can ask you | ||
| 1) so they're code is stuck on 2.5 compatibliity? | |||
| 2) what are they using now/next? | 09:45 | ||
| oh, sorry, I forgot. jython 2.7.0 did ship. About 18 months ago | |||
| brrt | the other, other hand | 09:47 | |
| nwc10 | a.k.a "The Gripping Hand" - context en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mote_in_God's_Eye | 09:48 | |
| jnthn | nwc10: This was a couple of years ago, so I don't know what happened now/next. | 09:50 | |
| Probably "nothing" though. | |||
| iirc they were using jython to get at Java libs | 09:52 | ||
| So no particularly easy escape | |||
| *sigh* So I got another night of LTA sleep. | 09:53 | ||
| jnthn will attempt not to be too grumpy today... | 09:54 | ||
| nwc10 | :-( | ||
| I had those the night before last and the night before that, but last night was OK | |||
| does this affect your coffee bootstrapping? | |||
| jnthn | No, coffee was produced fine today | 09:56 | |
| However | |||
| I normally drink a 5 | |||
| At Christmas somebody sent me a collection on different coffees. And a few days ago I ran out of the one I normally drink so figured I'd crack on with the collection. | 09:57 | ||
| I didn't expect a 3 to seem so much weaker. I've no idea what I'll make of the 1s in the pack. :) | |||
| *a collection of | 09:58 | ||
| brrt can agree with taht | |||
| anyway: the wider issue is | |||
| nwc10 | line them up like shots of spirits and just neck the entire row? :-) | ||
| brrt | lots of people have the problem of 'python doesn't perform' | ||
| which has a bunch of aspects; one of which is the global interpreter lock | 09:59 | ||
| another aspect - which i think is even more relevant - is memory usage and startup times | |||
| unfortunately, pypy helps with neither | 10:00 | ||
| the thing is, it generalizes to ruby and perl as well | |||
| lots of memory usage, lots of disk IO on startup, lot's of magic and intermediate layers | |||
| jnthn | I expect different people have problems with different ones of those | 10:01 | |
| nwc10 | sorry to seemingly sound a bit glib, but "me too" | 10:02 | |
| and I am arm waving | |||
| and I'm probably biased | |||
| brrt | in my experience it's really, really common | ||
| (PHP also has this problem, obviously) | |||
| jnthn | (So the set of people for who the GIL is the blocker may be a different set from whom startup/memory is the blocker) | ||
| nwc10 | but the thing I notice about language syntax or similar encancement requests is "I'd like X" and folks thinking "hence everyone would like X" | 10:03 | |
| brrt | i think both inhibit 'scale' in a way | 10:04 | |
| the effect of having a GIL is that if you want to do *anything* asynchronously, you need to resort to 'a solution' or 'a framework' or IPC or whatever | 10:05 | ||
| you can't just start a new thread in your uWSGI handler, for instance, and think that things will be fine, because they won't | |||
| the fact that you use so much memory limits the amount of process handlers you can have | 10:06 | ||
| so now, we need autoscaling, and so we need a cloud, and so we need containers, and a distributed container management, and… | |||
| i'm oversimplifying, of course | |||
| arnsholt | nwc10: On gem from that talk: "Until pickle dies, we will never have versioned submodules" =) | 10:07 | |
| s/On/One | |||
| nwc10 | does he explain why in the talk? | ||
| arnsholt | Yeah | ||
| nwc10 | good. then I won't ask here :-) | ||
| jnthn | brrt: If you're scaling sufficiently you'll hit the need to go multi-node whatever the thing is written in, I suspect. | 10:08 | |
| brrt | hmmm | 10:09 | |
| i guess my point is | |||
| google's move to go, at their scale, is the wisest thing they could've done, and patching up python to make it do what go can do has proven unreasonable in the past | 10:10 | ||
| nwc10 | yes, that's a good summary (and I agree) | ||
| jnthn | For sure, if you can run half the number of nodes then you save a lot at that scale. | ||
| nwc10 | and also have spotted some comments somewhere in the discussions that I have read, that they don't use the dynamic features (that are expensive to implement) that they aren't putting in | 10:11 | |
| brrt | they do allow for introspection, though | 10:21 | |
| nwc10 reaches " Although Grumpy is compiled, it is just as dynamic as Python, in that method dispatch involves dictionary lookups, etc." | 11:02 | ||
| which is interesting. It suggests that their use case is going to be "whatever we can do ahead of time" | |||
| samcv | also jnthn it looks like all we need from the canonical combining class is to check whether it's 0 or whether one is greater than the other, and also whether they are equal. yey | 11:06 | |
| can get the int value for the enum since they are all in order always | |||
| jnthn | Yeah, the non-zero values are primarily used in canonical ordering | 11:12 | |
| Perhaps even exclusively, thinking about it. | |||
| samcv | yeah | ||
| jnthn | Or at least, if I used them elsewhere I forget | ||
| A little bit of history by the way | |||
| samcv | well. also used in unicode_normalizer_process_codepoint_full | ||
| which can probably be taken out (maybe) | |||
| jnthn | But only for non-zeroness? | 11:13 | |
| samcv | hmm? | ||
| jnthn | Originally we didn't use TR29's definition of grapheme-break at all | ||
| And just combined things with a non-zero CCC | |||
| (In a very early cut of the code) | |||
| samcv | i believe the GCB property should be different for ones we care about | ||
| but as i said. may not be true | |||
| but i believe it is | 11:14 | ||
| jnthn | So it's very possible that the uses of CCC outside of the canonical ordering can be replaced by soemthing else. | ||
| samcv | so hopefully we can check the GCB proprety to decide what to do, and if it's not 0, er or whatever the default value is | ||
| yeah | |||
| jnthn | The main thing is that we still need to make sure we are getting to NFC form *and* doing NFG | ||
| samcv | yep | 11:15 | |
| jnthn | NFG is kinda an NFC++ in that sense. | ||
| And NFC is formed from NFD | |||
| The code at present does a quite literal 3-step process on that. | |||
| samcv | m: say 0x304.uniprop('GCB') | ||
| camelia | rakudo-moar 8568dd: OUTPUT«Extend» | ||
| jnthn | (Guarded by the quick check to avoid it in many cases) | ||
| samcv | m: say 0x304.uniprop('Canonical_Combining_Class') | ||
| camelia | rakudo-moar 8568dd: OUTPUT«230» | ||
| jnthn | There are things that are extends with a CCC of 0 | 11:16 | |
| samcv | do we care about those though? | ||
| jnthn | Well | ||
| We do for forming NFG correctly, yes | |||
| samcv | i think we care more about extends in that case | ||
| than ccc being 0 | |||
| jnthn | That's why the NFG algo switched away from caring about CCC | 11:17 | |
| samcv | ah | ||
| yeah. exactly my point | |||
| jnthn | All I'm saying really is: be careful that in simplifying it, we don't somehow break forming NFC along the way. | ||
| samcv | yeah. exactly | ||
| we may even be able to remove NFG_QC and only do GCB | 11:23 | ||
| but we will see as i start trying to simplify some things. that is much further down the list | 11:24 | ||
| jnthn | That...doesn't sound likely | ||
| samcv | since it's not too expensive | ||
| jnthn | Singleton decompositions are the first counter-example that come to mind. | ||
| samcv | well for some parts | ||
| i mean we still need it. but for breaking up the graphemes i think we don't. for other things yes | 11:25 | ||
| i.e. can call it further down the process codepoint full function | |||
| jnthn | Ah, OK. | ||
| Yes, I don't doubt there's better/faster ways to achieve the smae thing at all ;) | 11:26 | ||
| *same | |||
| I'd rather like there to be. :-) | |||
| samcv | we use nfg_qc on things that decompose and such right? | 11:27 | |
| jnthn | Yes | ||
| nfg_qc is nfc_qc | |||
| And then we zero more things | |||
| So it fully covers all the things NFC does | |||
| You added some I missed (or maybe new in Unicode 9) recently to that set of "more things", I think. :) | 11:28 | ||
| samcv | yep | ||
| jnthn, does anything that have extend or some weird GCB property have NFG_QC =No? | 11:30 | ||
| i don't think they do | |||
| well can't. it just breaks things in how we do things currently. | |||
| jnthn | If they do then it'd be a bug, surely. | 11:31 | |
| samcv | yeah | ||
| so maybe just rely on nfg_qc initially. and if it passes, ok fine, if it doesn't then look up the gcb and check decompostion and stuff | 11:32 | ||
| and we can even look up the ccc just once and pass it to canonical_composition and canonical sort. so will not have to look it up again | 11:33 | ||
| jnthn | *nod* | 11:34 | |
| Though canonical sort waits until it has the things it needs to sort | |||
| But we can probably keep a parallel buffer of CCCs | |||
| samcv | oh true | ||
| oh actually looks like ccc is _not_ in order right now. but i made it in order. so that is nice | 11:39 | ||
| jnthn | :) | ||
| samcv | we need to borrow a really fast utf-8 decoding function though | 11:40 | |
| jnthn | When I implemented this stuff I was in many places quite literally translating Unicode spec into code that looked quite a lot like the spec. So if you're uncovering easy performance wins I'll hardly be surprised. :-) | ||
| I tought the one we had got was meant to be decent (in that we did actually borrow it, not write it ourselves :-)) | 11:41 | ||
| *thought | |||
| But I'm +100 to replacing it with something faster (provided licensing stuff is OK) | |||
| nwc10 | One insight from Perl 5 land (that others had and I thought "why didn't I think of it?") | ||
| samcv | idk if the qt one could work | ||
| it's simd optimized for a bunch of processors and arm as well | |||
| nwc10 | is that you can support all the non-standard stuff | ||
| samcv | since qt runs on phones | ||
| and they have fast latin-1 and other format conversion as well | 11:42 | ||
| nwc10 | just make sure that the fast one flags if it finds "bad" input | ||
| and redo it with slow code that handles the exceptional stuff you want to do | |||
| because the common case is (or should be) well formed input | |||
| samcv | OK much better! now the nf* tests don't fail anymore now that the ccc is in order :) | 11:43 | |
| well when replacing with int based function | |||
| jnthn | Nice :) | 11:44 | |
| samcv++ | |||
| nwc10: Yeah, that's reasonable. One slight challenge is in streaming decoding where you might not have the data to hand any more to look back at | |||
| nwc10 | are there any cases that require more than 1 previous character to be held? | 11:46 | |
| jnthn | When decoding UTF-8? All the 2-3 byte sequences :) | ||
| nwc10 | specific one I can think of is one valid low surrogate comes in, and it's not followed by a high surrogate | ||
| yes. BUT | |||
| samcv | define character | ||
| jnthn | Oh, you're thinking ofthose | ||
| samcv | codepoint? | ||
| nwc10 | you can't let the start of the UTF-8 sequence go past | ||
| jnthn | That too | ||
| nwc10 | because you don't know that it's valid until you find enough continuation characters | 11:47 | |
| jnthn | Oh, I thought you were talking about tracking stuff to report line/column where the error in the input was. | ||
| nwc10 | also, surrogates in UTF-8 aren't valid, IIRC, if you're being strict | ||
| no, just at the code point level | |||
| jnthn | Ah, OK. Then my comment makes less sense :) | ||
| arnsholt | samcv: For answering questions like "are there characters with property A and property B at the same time" it might make sense to shove the whole shebang into an sqlite database, or similar? | 12:11 | |
| In fact, looks like someone's already put together tools to do that: github.com/Codepoints/unicodeinfo | |||
| samcv | why sqlite database... that would be loads slower | 12:16 | |
| or you mean for my purposes? | |||
| NFG_QC is an internal property not unicode spec tho | 12:19 | ||
| i can just survey all the codepoints using perl6 and check things | |||
| i'm going to bed. night night everybody | 12:28 | ||
| jnthn | 'night, samcv++ | 12:29 | |
| samcv | arnsholt, there's also this unicode.org/cldr/utility/properties.html | ||
| which is *most* accurate | |||
| mostly | |||
| also haven't figured out how to add and subtract properties yet but i think there is a way | |||
| arnsholt | Yeah, I meant for your purposes, not for MoarVM | 12:30 | |
| Because using SQL to get answers to questions is awesome (IMO, anyways =) | |||
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| timotimo | i got another day of sleep %) | 18:09 | |
| dogbert17 | o/ timotimo, how are the hiccups today? | 18:11 | |
| timotimo | well, i haven't been up for long, but so far they haven't appeared | 18:24 | |
| yesterday they were gone for most of my day-equivalent-timespan, but towards the time i wanted to go to sleep they came back | |||
| dogbert17 | so, how much have you slept recently? | 18:28 | |
| timotimo | well, from yesterday to today and from the day before yesterday to yesterday it was ~10 hours each maybe? before that it was scattered attempts of few hours | 18:31 | |
| dogbert17 | 10 hours, sounds like a record :-) | 18:42 | |
| timotimo | i'm not saying it's good :P | ||
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| samcv | .ask jnthn so I am trying to get certain emoji working, and so i made this change here github.com/samcv/MoarVM/commit/a29...bc21b3R579 | 23:45 | |
| yoleaux2 | samcv: I'll pass your message to jnthn. | ||
| samcv | .ask jnthn and oh oops i made a mistake. sorta nvm | 23:47 | |
| yoleaux2 | samcv: I'll pass your message to jnthn. | ||
| samcv | nice. ok i fixed it 👍 | 23:48 | |