6.2.10 released! xrl.us/hxnb | geoffb's column (/. ed): xrl.us/hxhk | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | www.geeksunite.net
Set by autrijus on 10 October 2005.
geoffb Added a paragraph at the end of the kwiki page WRT CC licensing. 00:00
luqui ?eval say $self 00:01
evalbot_7665 Error: Undeclared variable: "$self"
luqui ?eval my $self = 4 ; say $self
evalbot_7665 4 bool::true
geoffb Wow, that was a short stay
mrborisguy evalbot didn't want to stay around very log
coral blinks
that's not the usual behavior 00:02
luqui: the opengl firefox guy said he had no javascript bindings and isn't actively working on it
i didn't push for source code, pending your thoughts
luqui darn
evalbot will be back shortly 00:03
svnbot6 will tell you why he was absent shortly
?eval say "Hi! long time no see" 00:04
evalbot_7666 Hi! long time no see bool::true
stevan luqui: I think svnbot is down too 00:05
svnbot6 r7666 | luqui++ | Fixed a bug where $self was being interpreted as ${self}. That's the problem 00:06
r7666 | luqui++ | with bare syntactic synonyms. I have a feeling that it should be parsed like
r7666 | luqui++ | a nullary function and then folded in.
stevan horray !
Supaplex yippie 00:07
so what we cheering for? ;) 00:08
stevan svnbot is alive
Supaplex bear hugs svnbot6 *SQUISH*
geoffb Oh, I don't remember if I asked this before: Are the new ?eval :js and ?eval :p5 subject to safe mode just like normal ?eval ? 00:11
luqui has no idea 00:12
that's probably iblech's territory
If I recall that he wrote it correctly...
?eval :js say "booze" 00:13
evalbot_7666 *** Precompiled Prelude doesn't exist yet; precompiling... (You can safely ignore the 'useless use of constant' warnings.) pugs: *** No compatible subroutine found: "&use" at -e line 1, column 1 Use of uninitialized value in print at /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/perl5/PIL2JS/lib/PIL2JS.pm line 142. *** Reading input from "/tmp/YPbHrqflnf"... *** Compiling PIL to JavaScript... Can't bless non-reference value at /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-ba
geoffb iblech: OK, when you're back, my previous question is for you.
Supaplex nice hairball there evalbot_7666. 00:15
00:35 UnderDawg is now known as CaptFudd
nothingmuch good night 03:41
luqui good morning 03:46
?eval if 4 -> $x { say $x } 03:50
evalbot_7666 Error: unexpected ">" or "i" expecting program reserved word
luqui ?eval class Foo { has $.bar } Foo.new(bar => 42).bar 03:53
evalbot_7666 \42
luqui ?eval my ($x, $y) = (1,2); say "$x ; $y" 03:59
evalbot_7666 1 ; 2 bool::true
luqui ?eval min(1,2,3) 04:00
evalbot_7666 1
svnbot6 r7667 | luqui++ | Added a hand-written attribute grammar into examples. It worked perfectly. 04:17
r7667 | luqui++ | Pugs++ (crossing fingers hoping for little frustration).
mrborisguy luqui: do you expect $x to hold bool::true in 'if 4 -> $x { say $x }' ? 04:28
luqui maybe 04:30
couldn't remember
I was wanting it to hold 4, especially since we outlawed = in "if" 04:31
mrborisguy ?eval if ( $x = 4 ) { say $x } 04:38
evalbot_7667 Error: Undeclared variable: "$x" 04:39
mrborisguy ?eval my $x = 0; if ( $x = 4 ) { say $x }
evalbot_7667 4 bool::true
luqui I don't thunk pugs outlaws it
mrborisguy you're saying that will be illegal?
I guess I have never had to do that before, but is what you were trying going to be legal then? 04:42
wolverian luqui, boggle, outlaw = in if? that feels weird. 06:03
06:37 brother_ is now known as brother
jql hmm 06:55
autrijus greetings! 07:02
jql howdy
autrijus I finished 1 slide out of 3! ;)
obra autrijus! hi!
for what?
autrijus (due in 2 hours) 07:03
s/slide/talk/
obra heh
Juerd A three slide talk? Are those cinema screen slides on which you can put entire stories, or is it a lightening talk? :)
obra I should start my talk for npw
Juerd Oh, one talk :)
autrijus please sanity check. perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tmp/vb.xul
Juerd autrijus: I find the first slide rather scary. 07:04
Juerd clicks.
jql it rocketh?
autrijus (mock olde english)
Juerd
.oO( autrijus also began with basic. there's still hope for me! )
 07:05
jql I wonder if wikipedia.org has ever been entered into QBASIC before
autrijus jql: that pic is from wikipedia.
Juerd: larry just admitted thatyesterday at state of onion
jql it seemed odd
Juerd We're all a bunch of basic losers? This is upsetting news. 07:06
autrijus lol
no, it's just we are no longer denying our past :p
childhood trauma and therapy and all that
Juerd heh 07:07
jql one of my co-workers would be traumatized by this presentation
Juerd I've always _
hated that in vb
jql downloads
autrijus I hope the message is clear :)
(which is all I can hope for in a controversial talk) 07:08
Juerd What is the message?
That MS is evil? :)
They made basic un-basic.
autrijus no, that it's evolve or die :)
Juerd Oh
jql even old dogs can learn new tricks 07:09
autrijus (which is a point a certain Juerd raised +Inf times on p6l :))
Juerd I did? :)
autrijus iirc yes :)
Juerd I've never said it this clearly though :) 07:10
autrijus *nod*
Juerd What was the first basic dialect you used?
jql wants inline SQL and XML, now 07:11
Juerd I began with gwbasic, and did c64, c16, ibm a/c basic later (going backwards in time because I felt like it)
jql: Inline SQL is neat, inline XML... evil.
autrijus Juerd: GW or BASICA
around the same time
inline xml + query is very nifty. 07:12
as it's based on desugaring
not kludged in
Juerd jql: macro select is parsed /<SQL::select>/ { ... }
jql Juerd: inline xml is bad, DOM methods are worse
Juerd autrijus: basica is ibm a basic :)
"Advanced" basic :)
Which it was, compared to IBM "Cassette" BASIC, which was found mostly in PC roms 07:13
Remove harddrive, remove floppy, reboot, basic!
autrijus I... remember that 07:14
it's taught in our elementary school 2nd grade.
autrijus screams quietly
Juerd ...
Can't beat that :)
I got taught in school, 3rd class (age 14), that the "space bar is the long unlabeled key" 07:15
I tried to convince them that "property of Insula College" was in fact a label
But they never listened...
autrijus mariner.xul: perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tmp/mariner.xul
it's missing one stanza + one para. 07:16
help... welcome. but review of existing verse will help a lot too
Aankhen`` "\n+ and \w+" on slide 6 seems awkward... 07:17
Juerd autrijus: basic slides look sane
autrijus Aankhen``: reads: "lines and words" 07:18
Aankhen`` Ah.
Mi bad.
autrijus "comp.lang.perl" reads "CLP"
nah :)
(it's got a #comment in the pugs repo)
jql ponders the p6l graphics thread 07:21
geoffb autrijus, ping 07:39
gaal autrijus: s/that tarried/who tarried/ 07:41
autrijus geoffb: pong 07:42
gaal: original:
Eōæ½xE4rendil was a mariner
that tarried in Arvenien;
geoffb autrijus, in VB slides, 9 is not a prime number. :-)
autrijus blame amanda :)
gaal WELL TOLKEIN OBVISOULY DIDN'T KNOW ENGLISH. errr.
geoffb amanda?
autrijus geoffb: fixed 07:43
geoffb: the woman among the \ninjas
geoffb ah
coral |greetings
geoffb tease her. :-)
autrijus ;)
should I still change it to "who tarried" ?
probably a good idea
gaal I still don't like the tall / Camel rhyme, but can't think of anything better :(
geoffb greetings, coral 07:44
coral enamel
gaal yeah, considered that but it couldn't make it fit
coral a smile of enamel, depending on the purpose for the rhyme
autrijus (also, stanza 5 needs help :D)
gaal what language is the Camel transation there, Polish?
coral stanza 5 of
autrijus # docs/talks/larry_mariner.txt line 64
coral heh 07:45
autrijus hopefully I'll find allison after this keynote session and get it done
otherwise we'll be forced to drop that, which is sad, as I'd like to name lots of communities.
(oh boy, on air in 90 mins)
gaal rather minor, but the fixed-width and proportional fonts aren't exactly lined up (eg "blessed" is a little higher on the line) 07:46
autrijus gaal: it worksforme here and I think it's going to be ok :) 07:47
gaal "at least he came to Version Five" -> "at last", no?
geoffb gaal, I was thinking the same thing
autrijus "at last" is correct
gaal "the comp.lang.perl"... would "and" work better than "the"? 07:48
autrijus gaal++ 07:49
svnbot6 r7668 | autrijus++ | * Finished the missing para in the last stanza
r7668 | autrijus++ | * contribs from #perl6
gaal "of a fresh Community Rewrite", perhaps the "a" can be dropped for better scanning
"a-glimmer" can be spelled simply "aglimmer", I think 07:50
geoffb
.oO( Global Thermonuclear Talk Editing )
autrijus gaal: done. a-glimmer is original, probably not going to change
gaal I love the "tallied the RFCs" slide :) 07:51
OK
"till Code should fade, **an** gliding star"? 07:53
is it in the meaning of "and"? because archaic "an" means "if", not "and". 07:54
autrijus fixed
gaal if it's "and" then it oughta be spelled "an'"
autrijus no, simply was "an orbed star"
gaal is there mention of "we" in the original? 07:55
svnbot6 r7669 | autrijus++ | * s/the/and/ in CPAN stanza
r7669 | autrijus++ | * s/messy mess/noisy mess/
r7670 | autrijus++ | * s/of a fresh/of fresh/ in #7 to scan better.
r7671 | autrijus++ | * more grammos picked out by gaal
autrijus nope.
gaal Stanza 5 is good, but what's Tarmenel? 07:57
autrijus it's this high heaven thing in Vanilor 07:58
gaal (Tolkein reference? I don't remember that well enough)
autrijus #5 is unadapted!
(it's not in .xlu)
gaal hahaha!
maybe leave it verbatim, but add images dickh style? 07:59
hard to do in xul though.
autrijus not hard at all 08:00
gaal i mean simultaneously with the text
so you don't break your pace
autrijus sure, easily 08:01
I'll try that.
gaal++ # foundatin of good ideas
gaal it's striking how well the original fits, but well, that's kind of the point :)
autrijus :D 08:02
gaal #8: "and OO tricks were sought from him." sought *from* him or *for* him?
autrijus both works
geoffb . . . thank $deity, just when I thought the new perl 5 build would *never* make it into testing . . . it just did, carrying a wave behind it
autrijus I'd like a better word than "tricks" too 08:03
gaal spells? let's see
autrijus gaal: I'll go with "sought for"
gaal: er no, something more "frames" "class tree"
gaal k 08:04
"Classic trees" would not be understandable enough. 08:05
autrijus nope.
gaal If we keep "OO" we only have one syllable to work with. Golf.
(no, i 08:06
'm not suggesting "OO Golf" :-)
autrijus "tricks" is good enough 08:07
gaal yeah 08:08
"we'll land at last on far-away shores" -> s/far-away/distant/ # scans better
the "we" sounds funny though. But ACK why it's there. 08:09
autrijus distant is better. 08:10
I adapted stanza 5. 08:12
gaal "But on him mighty fate was laid"... "mighty boon" perhaps? to ring better with the original, but i'm not sure it's "correct" in context.
autrijus investingating into flashpic
gaal pulling
autrijus boon is good. 08:13
(commit is slow) 08:14
geoffb gaal++ # excellent editing
autrijus xul reuploaded
gaal thanks :)
autrijus, when you come here i hope you'll get to visit one of our word game nights. 08:15
autrijus sure!
gaal Stanza 5 is showing up all as one block of text on my browser 08:16
in ghci, can't i make a data declaration? 08:17
autrijus no, need separate compilation unit for that
svnbot6 r7672 | autrijus++ | * stanza 5 and more gaal fixes
gaal yeah, i can understand why. but too bad :) 08:18
autrijus I fixed the xul.
scp'ed up
gaal rafl: ping payload{ "can you do something about bug #319812 ?" } 08:19
s/otherworlds/other worlds/ 08:20
autrijus whew, it's looking good now
#perl6++
gaal hmm, syntax error. should be ping{ payload = .... } 08:21
autrijus++ :)
geoffb autrijus, does OpenFoundry have a way to send an email to the staff of a project? 08:22
(presumeably open to admins only or perhaps project team members only)
autrijus geoffb: yes, creating a new ticket should do that
you can also make a mailing list and subscribe [email@hidden.address] 08:23
gaal funny how we never made use of a ticket system. # "t/pugsbugs is our ticket system!"
geoffb autrijus, I think I may do the former. I don't want to ever have to manually remember to add someone to the list, just know that it will get to everyone. 08:24
autrijus nodnod. 08:25
gaal: indeed... it's a much more tightly integrated ticketing system
battery low... about to switch off in a bit
and this Alan Cox talk is nice
gaal see you later. I'm looking for improvements to s10 08:27
("So cunning its assembly", cunning yes, scanning no) 08:28
autrijus "assembly" pronounced as 4syl. 08:29
as-sem-ble-ly
gaal yeah, but after the previous line which also cheats a bit... 08:30
autrijus ...makes it a piers contribution. yes.
(he insisted we need to fit in "Continuation" at some point.)
gaal "piers contribution"? ah :)
autrijus suggestions welcome :) 08:31
gaal if this were slightly less constraints, we could simply use enjambment:
Continuations! What subtle / art! So cunning its assembly
but that won't work here i'm afraid.
s/constraints/constrained/ 08:32
autrijus aye.
brb& 08:33
gaal hexasyllabic words tend to throw off tetrameter :)
s/hexa/penta/
geoffb autrijus, how do you create a new version for a project in OF, so it will appear in the RT ticket dropdowns?
gaal geoffb: login, then do "New Project" 08:35
i think. but what is a new version of a project? 08:36
geoffb gaal, I don't want a new project, I just want a new version, so that when I create an RT ticket, I can say that it is for version 1.20.6, for example.
Right now, the dropdowns are empty, and the "Version" blurb in the left gutter says "No Releases" 08:37
gaal ah, that kind of version :)
geoffb AH! Found it!
It's under "Release Plans" in the left gutter menu
gaal geoffb: Release Plans 08:38
oh
heh.
geoffb It's taking me a while to get used to the new UI
Aside from not having admin'ed a project in RT before . . . :-) 08:39
gaal autrijus: I think the "What" can simply be omitted, and punctuation changed.
Continuations, subtle art
So cunning its assembly! 08:40
thought the "so" wants to be strengthened still.
oh, and s/its/in/ 08:41
or 09:05
Assembled $padding cunningly
"the Ī»-powered Pugs did fly" - this sounds like a line out of Jabberwocky 09:11
shower& 09:12
autrijus Continuations -- subtle art, 09:20
so cunning in its assembly!
what about that?
or 09:21
Continuations -- subtle art!
So cunning in its assembly!
lukhnos Must it be in plural? 09:22
autrijus nope
singular works fine
lukhnos So cunning art thou, subtle techne 09:23
Ye continuations in your assembly 09:24
s/art thou/ye disclose/
autrijus lukhnos: that scaneth not 09:25
svnbot6 r7673 | autrijus++ | * Continuation is now even more subtle, thanks to gaal and lukhnos
autrijus lukhnos: # perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tmp/mariner.xul
lukhnos ah 09:26
autrijus: actually techne and assembly rhyme in English 09:27
autrijus yeah, it rhymes, just not scans 09:28
lukhnos autrijus: which meter are you using 09:29
clkao lukhnos! 09:31
autrijus lukhnos: 7-8 syl each sentence
lukhnos mr. kao :) 09:32
autrijus yours have 9
lukhnos autrijus: so qudrameter ?
autrijus aye
gaal rehi 09:34
lukhnos continuations alone takes 5 09:35
gaal Maybe s/So cunning/cunning so/ 09:36
svnbot6 r7674 | autrijus++ | * last-second checkin from
gaal and normalize capitalizations of first words... 09:37
it's going live? good luck! :)
lukhnos gaal: "Cunning so are ye" ? 09:38
gaal i hope there's a vid capture.
lukhnos: he hasn't been using apostrophe in the rest of the poem, so i think not.
autrijus going live now 09:45
last-second allison checkin is sane I hope
gaal Monger crew, no? 09:46
autrijus gaal: fixed, please fix in the repo 09:52
gaal k 09:53
committed
autrijus gaal++ 09:54
svnbot6 r7675 | gaal++ | s/Mongers/Monger/
autrijus the vb one went very well! 10:02
gaal yay! a good vb implies a bright future for clr pugs :) 10:05
acme__ was nice 10:09
gaal is the vb talk online? 10:45
GeJ I think autrijus posted it... hum... 10:48
there it is: perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tmp/vb.xul
gaal cheers :) 10:50
who can identify the \-ninjas? 10:53
I think until I met autrijus I thought "Woot" was a syntax error in Basic. 10:54
what does the underscore mean? "select p _ from p in primes _" 10:55
GeJ One of them is actually a kunoichi. Amanda is the name. <autrijus> blame amanda :) [...] <autrijus> geoffb: the woman among the \ninjas 10:56
gaal #perl6 increasing wikipedia traffic.. thanks :) 10:57
GeJ Well, if only wikipedia knew about this GADT guy you're all talking about. :) 11:01
gaal haskell.org/hawiki/QuotesPage?actio...value=gadt ;-) 11:05
GeJ #perl6 increasing haskell.org's logfile since 2005... Thanks :) 11:06
autrijus gaal: the _ means "continued at next line" 12:17
it's what you get instead of semicolons.
(the pugs talk just concluded -- it went pretty well.)
theorbtwo Cool!
The unicode abuse one?
autrijus yeah
gaal ah, so it's like \ 12:18
but they wanted to save that to mean lambda in version 10
autrijus no, lambda has no sigil there 12:19
they are too smart
\x -> x + 1
in vb is just
x => x+1
fglock__ autrijus: porting basic lazy array operations to pugs looks easy - now I'm trying to find out how to implement slices 12:20
autrijus fglock__: ooooh
"\x y -> x + y" becomes "x y => x + y"
theorbtwo Wait... the joke about the VB team being taken over by crazy lambadites was ha-ha-only-serious?
gaal yepsters.
autrijus it is serious -- Erik Meijer is responsible (among other things) for HaskellDB, Parsec, HSP 12:21
fglock__ it would be nice if there were function names for slice operations
autrijus fglock__: &circumfix:<[ ]>
gaal theorbtwo: lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/view/967
theorbtwo Wow.
autrijus either amanda or paul is also a long time academician 12:22
fglock__ I'll try it - thanks
autrijus fglock__: prolly won't work -- it's a Syn form in haskell runtime
but that may work for PIL
but we can fix the haskell runtime so it works
fglock__ it does work in PIL - we use it in pilrun 12:23
autrijus I'll brb though, need to proc mudane things I ignored for ages
nodnod
gaal wonders what "!!" (as opposed to "!") means in ghc --show-iface output for Strictness. 12:35
autrijus unboxed and strict?
(wild gues)
gaal autrijus: could well be, since so far I'm only seeing it for Int fields. 12:38
autrijus cool 12:39
gaal um, I need a p5 re idiom, that splits but honors parens. 12:41
a b (c d e) (f (g h)) => 4 elements
can i get away with not using a modules for that?
s/a modules/Text::Balanced/ 12:42
then again, T:B is core. nice. 12:43
fglock__ autrijus: re array slice - it looks like postcircumfix:[] is not redefinable - I tried: "multi postcircumfix:<[ ]> ( *@a ) { warn "SLICE" }" 12:45
autrijus fglock__: ok, can you write a pugsbug for that 12:46
fglock__ sorry - you mean a test or a bug report? 12:47
autrijus test
fglock__ k
autrijus a test _is_ a bug report :) 12:48
fglock__ :)
gaal hee
surely there is a better way to do what i want than this: 12:53
# map { /^\(/ ? $_ : split } Text::Balanced::extract_multiple($string_to_parse, [ sub { Text::Balanced::extract_bracketed($_[0],"()") }, ] )
autrijus you can import and stop using fully qualified functions :) 12:54
gaal just looking at this makes me want to join a haskell monastery and grok Parsec already
autrijus sure, you can take the baskell or harrorth code and run with it
gaal it's kinda funny that i started out by thinking perl's just the tool to help hoogle get its lib data, and now i'm hankering for haskell. 12:56
maybe i should code this in Perl 6 instead?
autrijus that can work too
gaal we need Parlsec.pm 12:57
autrijus then you can "import Pugs" and use it in hoogle ;)
yeah, iblech has a small one in p5
he used it to parse PIL2JS
look at some back versions
it's a partial clone of parsec
gaal well, as soon as ghc-cvs gets fixed in debian i'm adding pugs to lambdabot :) 12:58
fglock__ does the name "t/data_types/array_multisub.t" makes sense?
autrijus :D
fglock__: sure thing
fglock__: array_slice ?
array_mmd?
your works too
fglock__ array_mmd is ok 12:59
redefining Array broke Test.pm - so I'm using plain say("ok") instead 13:14
svnbot6 r7676 | fglock++ | * added tests for Array method redefinitions: t/data_types/array_mmd.t 13:16
jp-autark I'm playing around a bit with the embeded perl5 stuff, with hashes I can call both .keys and .values but not .kv - which files in the source tree should I be looking at to fix this? 13:24
fglock__ jp-autark: src/perl5/ - but I'm not familiar with these files, sorry 13:33
svnbot6 r7677 | fglock++ | * fixed t/data_types/array_mmd.t - uses Test.pm
jp-autark fglock__: thanks, I was stuck in Pugs/Embed/Perl5.hs -- I'll have a look at the perl5/ dir and see if I can grook anything. 13:40
eric256 shouldn't passing named parameteres that arn't in the signature be an error? 14:43
i mean otherwise if you pass something with a name that overlaps an actual namein the sub would that break it? 14:54
?eval sub x () { my $self = 5; return $self; }; x(self=>2);
evalbot_7677 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&x"
eric256 ?eval sub x ( @a ) { my $self = 5; return $self; }; x(self=>2); 14:55
evalbot_7677 Error: Insufficient number of required parameters: 0 actual, 1 expected
eric256 ?eval sub x ( @a ) { my $self = 5; return $self; }; x(2);
evalbot_7677 \5
eric256 ?eval sub x ( Pair *@a ) { my $self = 5; return $self; }; x(self => 5);
evalbot_7677 \5
eric256 okay so it doesn't over right...but it doesn't exactly DWIM either...i dunno.
iblech eric256: Yep, that's a bug (already tested for in t/subroutines/sub_named_params.t and partly in t/syntax/pairs.t) 15:04
geoffb: -BJS doesn't need a special safemode, as -BJS can't do *any* IO (except print, of course) 15:05
brother ?eval sub x ( @a ) { my $self = 5; return $self; }; x (self=>2);
evalbot_7677 Error: Undeclared variable: "$?SELF"
brother ?eval sub x ( @a ) { my $self = 5; return $self; }; x(self=>2); 15:06
evalbot_7677 Error: Insufficient number of required parameters: 0 actual, 1 expected
iblech ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
evalbot_7677 \"Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.10, October 10, 2005 (r7677)"
iblech ?eval my $self = 5; $self 15:07
evalbot_7677 \5
iblech ?eval (self => 3)
evalbot_7677 Error: Undeclared variable: "$?SELF"
brother besides the $?SELF-thingy. is the difference with og without a space between the functioname and the start parens intentional?
xerox Yow! 15:09
iblech Yep. foo (1,2) passes the array (1,2) to &foo, while foo(1,2) passes the two args 1 and 2 to &foo (see docs/quickref/control)
xerox Where could I look for finding something unimplemented/to-be-fixed that a lambdafolk can implement/fix, without deep p6 knowlegde? 15:10
iblech xerox: Hm... t/pugsbugs/*.t? 15:11
xerox looks 15:12
elmex ??? 15:17
eric256 iblech..is it a bug or just a missing error? i guess a missing error could be considered a bug
iblech eric256: It's not yet implemented 15:18
which brings me to...:
eric256 would it be impossible for a (*@) signature to accept named args as pairs? so that trans could just be plain old .trans( [1..5]=>5); i'm still working on fitting a knowledge of pairs into programming since we didn't have them before.. but it seems ti would be nice to accept pairs right in the arg list
iblech xerox: sub foo (+$named_only_argument) {...}; foo() does work, while it should not. Want to fix? :) 15:19
xerox Compiling pugs now, the system is a bit off of resources during the process :D
iblech Not in the current proposal -- *@ only slurps up positional args. If you want to slurp nameds, you've to use *% (but I see that this a) stringifies the keys and b) mixes the ordering) 15:20
eric256 exactly
**@?? ;) 15:21
iblech xerox: Err, thinko -- sub foo (+$named_only_argument) {...}; foo($this_is_passed_positionally) does work, while it should not
;) 15:22
brother method trans (Str $self; **@??inpairs) -- yikes
eric256 why the ?? oohhh.. .lol i meant **@ ?? ;) 15:23
method trans (Str $self: **@inpairs) { }';
svnbot6 r7678 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props. 15:24
r7678 | iblech++ | * t/oo/magical_vars.t: "self", outside of a method, shouldn't work.
r7678 | iblech++ | * Pugs.Parser: Removed special parsing for "self" (broke (self => 42))...
r7678 | iblech++ | * Pugs.Prim: ...and added &self, like luqui++ suggested.
xerox iblech: what's the syntax for named arguments passing?
iblech xerox: foo(named => "argument")
xerox It doesn't work without names here.
iblech (And it should only succeed if &foo has a signature of (+$named) or (++$named))
xerox Oh, it does.
brother Well, better get home and find another project to hack on.
iblech ?eval sub foo (+$bar) {}; foo(42); # works while it should not 15:25
evalbot_7677 undef
nothingmuch wow, the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy movie absolutely sucks 15:33
eric256 nah. its just not the book
kolibrie decides not to go see it
nothingmuch regardless of the book
eric256 but if you ever go to a moive about a book don't expect much ;)
nothingmuch it's like "oh, that's cool, let's put it there, and then cut to another funny joke"
there is absolutely no plot line
eric256 that is kind of like the books ;)
nothingmuch the books have a nice way of progressing 15:34
the movie goes nowhere
theorbtwo Odd; Rozzalin liked it.
nothingmuch also, i think the acting is really lousy 15:35
eric256 from what i remember of the books they often had very little plot too, but its been a while. i still liked it. anyone who goes to a movie expecting much plot these days is going to be a bit dissapointed ;)
theorbtwo eric256, Rozallin.
nothingmuch heh
theorbtwo Grr.
er, Rozallin.
irssi has the habit, of late, of replacing things matching ^([^ ])+, with a username. 15:36
eric256 see i thought that bad acting and cheesy everything went well with it. didn't like some of the changes but they weren't that huge ;)
Eimi On the whole I liked it, but it felt just a little to aware of how cheesy it was. The books felt to me like most of the characters (aside from Arthur) didn't have any idea how silly it all was. Matter-of-fact presentation of the absurd. 15:39
svnbot6 r7679 | iblech++ | t/builtins/strings/trans.t: Fixed test (with pairs being demagicalized now), 15:44
r7679 | iblech++ | parens around the pairs are needed now. Also added a test for <== (suggested by
r7679 | iblech++ | Larry), which would allow dropping the parens.
r7680 | iblech++ | PIL2JS: PIL, PIL::PVal: Implemented pre-generating constants, as described in 15:50
r7680 | iblech++ | www.sidhe.org/~dan/blog/archives/000433.html. Unfortunately, this
r7680 | iblech++ | optimization technique doesn't make a difference, so I'll revert this commit
r7680 | iblech++ | (just want to have it in the VCS).
r7681 | iblech++ | PIL2JS: PIL, PIL::PVal: Reverted r7680 as promised. 15:53
eric256 posted his proposal to p6l which will probably be shot down, but like autrijus said, a commited and revert is better than a noop ;) 16:02
cjb Hello. Does anyone happen to know if/where video of EuroOSCON talks is being published? 16:05
rafl That would be great. 16:09
fglock__ cjb: this is from the YAPC: use.perl.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/2...p;from=rss - re OSCON, I only know of this: whytheluckystiff.net/starry/ 16:12
eric256 wonders what rafl was refering too ;) 16:13
cjb fglock__: I'm talking about EuroOSCON, which is happening now and which autrijus is speaking at, and not US OSCON. 16:14
autrijus aye. 16:15
cjb: I don't know of a video
cjb autrijus: Aww. Oh well. Was really curious how the talk that went with your xul slides went. 16:16
autrijus maybe you can convince claes and other NPW folks to take recording
cjb Have you given the talk yet? :) 16:17
autrijus yup
and hence much less stressed
svn/svk/darcs/git/arch BOF going on in 13 mins
after that the whole tomorrow is free
cjb Heh. Then there's not much point me convincing them now, is there? :)
eric256 ?eval qx/date/
evalbot_7681 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
autrijus ...except _then_ I'd need to finish my haskell talk
eric256 ?eval my $x = qx/date/;
evalbot_7681 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
autrijus cjb: no, euroscon happened but I'll redeliver the talk at NPW
and again at osdc
cjb oh! I see. 16:18
rafl eric256: To cjb's question.
xerox Haskell talk! Haskell talk video!
autrijus xerox: I still have to _write_ the talk...
xerox continues singing 16:20
brother Hmmm, registraion for npw is still open 16:22
theorbtwo Hm, could it be that evalbot doesn't support qx because it doesn't have parrot embedding? 16:23
chip good day 16:25
eric256 theorbtwo i expected a saftey error of some sort...just reading S02 and thought i'd give it a shot 16:26
autrijus isn't qx about system()? 16:27
wolverian eric256, hmm, wouldn't *%pairs is shape(...) work?
theorbtwo Oh, right, nevermind...
eric256 wolverian that would still loose order
theorbtwo qx certianly won't work, then, though I wouldn't expect it to get that error.
Oh...
wolverian eric256, hm, right. *%pairs is Hash::Ordered is shape(...) is getting long.
theorbtwo ?eval sub qx ($a) {return 5}; qx(date); 16:28
evalbot_7681 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&date"
eric256 well as a signature its probably okay to be long. just neesd to be doable
theorbtwo ?eval sub qx ($a) {return 5}; qx("date");
evalbot_7681 5
theorbtwo It can't even parse it.
chip autrijus: is %MY or %OUTER::MY intended to allow key insertion at runtime?
theorbtwo ?eval this((does ((not ((parse
evalbot_7681 Error: unexpected "t" expecting program
theorbtwo ?eval asdf/foo/
evalbot_7681 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
theorbtwo Right.
?eval 1+
evalbot_7681 Error: unexpected end of input expecting end of input or term
theorbtwo Hm. 16:29
eric256 oddly theorbtwo that gives a different error in the pugs command line than the eval bot
iblech chip: IIRC, %MY (and thus %OUTER::MY) is frozen at compile-time. Only %OUR can be changed at runtime 16:30
autrijus chip: no and no 16:33
nothingmuch www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Wrong.html 16:39
this article has me thinking
it's an adhoc type system, based on variable names 16:40
there are two problems with it:
the user maintains it
and it's not inferred
this is really better done with tainting 16:41
compile time tainting, if possible
does anybody have any additional thoughts?
chip iblech, autrijus: figured as much. Parrot has to allow for mutable %MY for some HLLs though (e.g. tcl) 16:42
nothingmuch chip: perl 6 itself has made some interesting decisions in that respect 16:43
for example, sub params are readonly by default
it seems very balanced
iblech and only vars declared "is env" are visible via %CALLER::
sub foo { say $CALLER::abc }; my $abc = 42; foo() # dies
chip nothingmuch: indeed, I really don't see the point of mutable %MY ... Tcl should never have done that. If you need a mutable hash, just declare one. Duh 16:44
iblech sub foo { say $CALLER::abc }; my $abc is env = 42; foo() # ok
nothingmuch eep! since when does 'is env' apply?
chip 'is env'? *This* is new.
iblech IIRC it came with an update to S02, approx. 1 month ago 16:45
nothingmuch that is an odd change
that really breaks the hack-fu of CALLER:: 16:46
iblech ($_, $! and $/ are always implicitly declared "is env")
chip iblech: Oh wait, you may be missing something 16:47
nothingmuch i always thought it's only purpose was subverting good behavior
chip iblech: n/m, in p6 $_ does require declaration. grr
Soudns like Parrot can't implement CALLER any more 16:48
at least, not in a generic way that will work for p6
iblech chip: Hm? $_ is implicitly declared (as a lexical)
chip iblech: oh, please just ignore that, it was a braino
nothingmuch wonders if you can do CALLER:: by force
chip nothingmuch: &Perl6::caller_impl (or is that &Perl6.caller_impl?) could walk up through activation frames, find the appropriate %MY, and return the value iff the given variable is found to be 'is env' 16:50
nothingmuch err, i don't mean implementation wise
i mean as a language feature 16:51
chip I think all Parrot _needs_ to provide is a non-recursive $activation_record.lexical_lookup($name) 16:52
"by force"?
%CALLER::MY{'$no_i_really_mean_it'} could be what you want
nothingmuch erm, i mean $CALLER::foo; # $foo in caller's lexical scope even if it's not 'is env'
hmm, that makes sense
chip so %MY is env 16:53
nothingmuch i hope ;-)
chip heh. Actually I think that's an interesting point
What is %MY{'%MY'}?
More to the point, what is exists %MY{'%MY'}? 16:54
PerlJam I would guess false 16:55
nothingmuch how come false?
iblech I would guess %MY<%MY> eqv %MY
eric256 worries as he hears a commercial for doggy camp/daycare....thats just scary
nothingmuch ?eval my %hash; %hash<hash> = \%hash; \%hash;
evalbot_7681 {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash"
nothingmuch see? that almost makes sense
chip heh. Garbage collection doesn't scare me, becuase I don't have to write it
PerlJam nothingmuch: I've never thought of %MY as "living" in the same space as lexicals. 16:56
nothingmuch how come? it's in the lexical scope
iblech Hm, then maybe %MY should be named %?MY?
PerlJam iblech: That's what I think
chip what's with the '?'?
nothingmuch yet, it should
chip oh, right. "Compiler feature"
nothingmuch chip: special vars are e.g. $*OS and $?SUB - you know where they are by the prefix (global vs lexical)
PerlJam chip: ? indicates stuff you can get at with static analysis. 16:57
iblech Yep, Larry explicitly said that $? vars don't have to be accessible by $::("...") or %MY:: etc.
nothingmuch hmm 16:58
chip %?CALLER::?MY<> ... too many ?s
iblech sorry, dinner & 16:59
PerlJam not sure, but I think the ? can be omitted. It's only required for disambiguation. (but I could be completely off base here)
so %MY == %?MY
or is that %MY eqv %?MY ?
Whatever the right equivalence operator is :) 17:00
eric256 i don't think so PerlJam...that doesn't make sense. why have the ? at all then?
PerlJam eric256: it's a similar thing to the ^ in $^vars. When you say $^foo it actually makes a $foo. 17:02
but, like I said, I could be way off base.
eric256 dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S02.html
doesn't mention either of those...might not be up to date, or might be mentioned somewhere else.dunno 17:03
nothingmuch PerlJam: there are several right equivalence operators ;-)
nothingmuch wonders if that mess will ever be resolved
eric256 it mentions them, it doesn't mention droping the ^ or ? ;)
nothingmuch: you don't think we need twelve equivalence operators? 17:04
nothingmuch =)
PerlJam eric256: but I know that $^foo implies $foo to be true however.
chip WTF ... that says it's MY, not %MY
So the whole conversation is moot
eric256 PerlJam.....how do you know that? 17:05
PerlJam eric256: because I was puzzled by that implementation decision in pugs until autrijus pointed me at something that larry said. 17:06
eric256 hmmm. then it doesn't seem to have been folded into the docs. ...if you could find that agian it should probably be fixed in the docs../me contiues to search the docs 17:07
chip there's no ? ... you can't have a twigil without a sigil, and MY has no sigil 17:08
PerlJam Given the mutability of the language though, what I knew last week may not be valid this week :)
eric256 stupid google doesn't like to search on puncuation 17:09
PerlJam chip: see the thread you started on p6l at groups.google.com/group/perl.perl6....a1a3372569 17:11
:-)
geoffb iblech, fglock__, OK, so Haskell backend has a safemode, and JS backend doesn't need one. What about P5 backend?
chip PerlJam: gee whiz, I completely forgot that 17:12
Great thing about ADD is you can enjoy the same conversation many times
PerlJam Seeing how it was 3 years ago, I'm not surprised.
Still it might do for a rehash on p6l just to make sure the current version of perl6 reality meshes properly 17:13
Limbic_Region wonders if chip was making a general comment about ADD or his personal experience
chip Limbic_Region: I'm sorry, what were we talking about? 17:14
Limbic_Region you said the great thing about ADD is you can enjoy the same conversation many times
eric256 lol
chip rolls his eyes
eric256 watches L~R fall for the olds trick ;) 17:15
chip Importing is a bitch
Limbic_Region was being serious
chip sub import { caller(1).MY{'&foo'} = sub { ... } }
fglock__ geoffb: if safemode is a runtime thing it should be easy to add 17:17
geoffb I don't know where it happens. I just note that now that evalbot can call an arbitrary backend, we need to make sure they are as locked down as the haskell one is. :-) 17:18
eric256 ?eval:p5 system('date'); 17:19
evalbot_7681 Can't locate Scriptalicious.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/perl5/PIL-Run/lib /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/perl5/PIL-Run/.. /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/perl5/PIL-Run/../Perl6-Value/lib /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/perl5/PIL-Run/../Perl6-Container/lib /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/perl5/PIL-Run/../Perl6-MetaModel /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/perl5/PIL-Run/../Perl6-MetaModel/lib /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.8.7
eric256 well it doesn't work. ;)
i never see fibonaci around...it seems he is compiling pugs constantly too. figured we could just use the auto build on feather... 17:20
fglock__ most file operations are not implemented in p5 yet - so it's fine to add safemode to the TODO
eric256 ?eval:p5 print "hello";
evalbot_7681 Can't locate Scriptalicious.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/perl5/PIL-Run/lib /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/perl5/PIL-Run/.. /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/perl5/PIL-Run/../Perl6-Value/lib /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/perl5/PIL-Run/../Perl6-Container/lib /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/perl5/PIL-Run/../Perl6-MetaModel /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/perl5/PIL-Run/../Perl6-MetaModel/lib /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.8.7
eric256 lol. nm
geoffb fglock__, fair enough. Please do, since you know where it should go. :-) 17:21
fglock__ ok 17:22
PerlJam Limbic_Region: all of us computer-types suffer from some form of ADD I bet.
geoffb PerlJam, or OCD
PerlJam or RSI
or OCR
or ... wait, what were we talking about?
geoffb heh
PerlJam (I guess that one won't work twice ;-)
Limbic_Region PerlJam - that wasn't the question I was asking though 17:23
eric256 or we suffer from laziness ;)
Limbic_Region I was interested in faulty memory being associated with ADD
PerlJam Limbic_Region: you actually didn't ask anything. You wondered if chip were speaking from personal experience or just making a general comment. I'd be willing to bet both : 17:24
er :)
Limbic_Region *shrug* 17:25
chip LR: In my experience, splitting my attention leads to difficulty with forming long-term memories of experiences
Limbic_Region chip - ok, that makes a lot of sense
geoffb Anyone know how to enter arbitrary unicode characters into xchat?
chip On the other hand, hyperfocus is another part of the experience, and that leads to really good memory. I still remember for example that "JMP 06CCH" is how you simulate hitting the reset button on a TRS-80 Model I with Level II BASIC 17:26
It's not so much ADD as ACD - attention control disorder. But I digress. (Ironically) 17:27
Limbic_Region right - I tend to hyperfocus when speaking/writing and can remember things almost verbatim but if you asked me anything else that was going on around me at the time I would be a total blank
chip heh. I resemble that remark
PerlJam memory is a strange thing. 17:28
Limbic_Region sure is - did a highschool science fair experiment on it 17:29
all the research was real - all the data was cooked
PerlJam Once, after my parents moved, I tried to remember their new phone number. I couldn't for the life of me do it no matter what tricks I tried.
eric256 can't remember phone numbers but can easily recal ip addresses and the password to his parents dialup account from 10+ years ago ;)
Limbic_Region Kevin Trudeau's Mega Memory system - I did a statistical analysis on its effectiveness
PerlJam Then one day several months after I'd given up, I wanted to call them and bam! the number was at the tip of my brain ready to be accessed.
Limbic_Region: how did it fare? 17:30
Limbic_Region people often swap memory and recall interchangeabbly but they are really 2 different things
1st prize local, 1st prize state - opted not to go to nationals
geoffb Limbic_Region, there's some of that in anyone . . . there was a great experiment where the researches recorded basketball players (IIRC) practicing, and then asked subjects to count how many times the ball was held by players from each team. Then at the end, they asked if the subject saw anything else of interest -- most said no. Then the researcher rewound the tape to point out the man in an ape costume walk onto the court, pa
use, wave at the camera, and walk off.
Limbic_Region figured I had pressed my luck far enough 17:31
In any case, chip's statements make perfect sense after clarification and are in alignment with my own personal experiences 17:32
PerlJam sends away for eidetic-memory-in-a-bottle and hopes it works 17:34
svnbot6 r7682 | fglock++ | * PIL-Run - emits a warning if the environment var PUGS_SAFEMODE is enabled 17:36
chip geoffb: That's really funny ... if you could find a link to that I'd be obliged 17:44
geoffb chip, wow, been a while. I'd just be googling myself. 17:45
Limbic_Region mind hacks chip 17:46
geoffb OK, that came out wrong. You know what I meant.
Limbic_Region if you haven't seen the book, you might want to
chip "Did you google her?" "I'm pretty sure she's too young."
Limbic_Region: thanks
Limbic_Region www.mindhacks.com/
I haven't read the whole thing but some of the experiments are definately fun
I have a problem reading any book that I can't hyperfocus on 17:48
but if I do - it is usually consumed in a day or two
I am sure everyone by now has seen the email instructing you to lift your right leg and start doing clockwise circles 17:51
then, while continuing the circles, try and draw the number 6 without having your leg change directions
geoffb Limbic_Region, hadn't seen that email (thankfully), but it's an interesting experiment 17:54
Limbic_Region I have had moderate success in "beating" it - it involves timing the circles such that they intersect at the top and bottom
chip coordinated mirror action 18:02
like mirror writing. clever 18:03
geoffb testing: āœ“ 18:23
ah, ok, that seemed to work
autrijus mm? 18:27
geoffb Didn't know how to get unicode into xchat. Finally just used Gnome's charmap utility. But first I had to learn how to use *that*. :-) 18:28
oh, autrijus, how was the version control BOF? 18:29
autrijus it's going on
lots of svn weaknesses being identified out 18:30
mostly O(n) problems
like finding which files in which branches and tags
obra what other systems were represented? 18:31
geoffb autrijus, Are these things that other systems do better, or just that the talk has been very SVN-centered? 18:32
Oh, nothingmuch, if you haven't seen it yet, a kind soul pointed me to: www.zenetics.com/camel/docs.html. It's a series of articles about how to write a Forth interpreter, and apparently the resulting Forth is actually in use for various microcontrollers. 18:35
fglock__ autrijus: re lazy lists: can I use "if %ENV{PUGS_LAZY} { use xxx_test_implementation }" in Prelude, in order to not break existing programs? 18:37
19:26 ods15_ is now known as ods15
chip somebody point me to the implementation of 'is export'? 19:31
iblech chip: It's somewhere in src/Pugs/Parser.hs 19:35
PerlJam can't help but read src/Bugs/Parser.hs for some reason 19:36
iblech fglock__: Problem would be, of course, that changes to $PUGS_LAZY would not be effective, as the Prelude is precompiled...
eric256 looks like line 436 of Parser...
PerlJam iblech: he could, of course, provide an alternate Prelude. 19:37
fglock__ iblech: defining "multi infix:<..>" in Prelude didn't work - I must be doing something wrong
PerlJam - I'll try that
eric256 multi *infix:<..> 19:38
i think you need the star, but thast just a nagging memory of some fight with prelude.pm i had way back
spinclad autrijus: "its syntax wrought with utmost care" maybe? 19:39
iblech fglock__: That might be the old problem that exporting happens at parse time (i.e., prelude precompilation time) instead of use() time -- see autrijus's comment in t/pugsbugs/attribute_hash.t 19:40
spinclad (s/its/the/, natuerlich) 19:41
fglock__ I guess I just forgot "is export" - testing 19:43
spinclad .oO ( a Came'l -- interesting wordstress) 19:44
autrijus: "_One_ starless night in '94" perhaps? 19:46
.oO ( flared through' mirrors' of Eff-You-net -- scans oddly ) 19:48
autrijus spinclad: please commit ahead :) 19:53
"one" is good
I got dconway signed on as pugs committer just so he can fix larry_mariner.txt 19:54
(we'll be presenting that at osdc)
spinclad ah... kin i have a token too?
autrijus sure! mail?
<- surprised spinclad is not yet
spinclad [email@hidden.address]
autrijus welcome aboard! add yourself to AUTHORS please 19:55
fglock__ autrijus: I can't find out how to make "multi infix:<..> ( $a, $b ){}" work in Prelude.pm - it works if I use it in a program.
autrijus fglock__: ok, it works iff we change Eval.hs so that instead of Syn "..", it uses the real infix:<..>
spinclad thankee kindly good sir -- i shall take most special care of it
autrijus have fun :)
fglock__ will have to actually learn haskell some day
autrijus fglock__: I hope to turn my talk thursday into something that, when finished, one can get hacking at pugs internals 19:56
fglock__ will look at Eval.hs
autrijus: great!
brother t/builtins/list/*.t has a couple of :todo<bug> along the lines of ".min should not work on scalars" but min is also tested for a subroutine form. 19:57
autrijus fglock__: hmm, sec
brother It can be fixed by movin min into List::min in Prims.hs and define sub min(*@elems) { @elems.min } in Prelude.pm 19:58
Would that be the right way?
autrijus ?eval multi *infix:<..> (Int $x, Int $y) { die 3 }; 1..10
evalbot_7682 Error: 3
autrijus brother: sure, that worksforme
brother: you a committer yet?
brother yup
gaal aloha
autrijus yo gaal
spinclad brother can you paradigm?
eric256 why do you need the sub in prelude? 19:59
to handl the min @x form?
autrijus actually min @x also works if @x has a method of min
it's the
min(1,2,3,4,5)
form
that is the problem
gaal say, did the rubish juggler stop by since he was first here?
eric256 has never heard anyone say "can you paradigm", can you dance, can you sing..sure..but paradigm?
brother spinclad: parse error? 20:00
autrijus it's like "can you zeitgeist?"
eric256 ahh autrijus thanks
gaal can you noun?
autrijus gaal: mm?
eric256 ?eval my @x = (1..5); print shift @x, 'hello', @x;
evalbot_7682 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&shift"
brother gaal: no bu I can verb a noun
eric256 shoudl that realy work? there is a test for it, but it seems wrong to me.
?eval my @x = (1..5); print shift(@x), 'hello', @x;
evalbot_7682 1hello2345bool::true
gaal autrijus: the Juggler fellow who met you in some con! who does ruby, who did the PoPoPo[..] thing
brother: that was already a verbed noun! 20:01
autrijus anyway, I sent committer bits to illustrious hackers like artur bergman (sky), elizabeth mattijsen, damian, et al
gaal whoor!
spinclad brother: it also recalls 'brother, can you spare a dime?'
gaal s/or/t/
theorbtwo Brother: You can't verb zeitgeist or paradgim very well.
autrijus oh schuyler too 20:02
"If you don't zeitgeist your code, I'll paradigm you from our team!"
spinclad from an earlier ... 'recession' 20:03
eric256 any thoughts on the shift question? ;) 20:04
theorbtwo schuyler? Towns in nebraska and virgina, and three notable people? 20:05
autrijus theorbtwo: search.cpan.org/~sderle/ 20:07
gaal wow, liz is prolific
autrijus and she is pleasantly surprised by the idea of STM 20:09
which happily renders most of her modules obsolete (in a good way)
gaal that happened to me once!
i blame yuval for that :) (Class::Accessor::Ref)
theorbtwo Oh, is she still active outside the monistary?
(Sniffle.)
gaal (in a good way) 20:10
she's a memcached user, cool :) 20:11
Juerd Who here is going to euroscon (I'm not)? 20:22
obra liz of forks fame, autrijus? 20:44
nothingmuch gaal: why am I to blame for C::A::R? 20:47
Juerd obra: Assuming there is no other liz with that name, it must be
autrijus obra: aye 20:48
obra autrijus: neat
. o O { Can we get STM in perl5? }
obra wants perl5 to be perl6 before perl6 is
autrijus yeah
it's just internal hacking is prone to break things.
as all porters are painfully aware. 20:49
so, yes, possible, but I doubt anyone is going to have the huge tuits to do it.
geoffb obra, I'm betting some of ponie's massive internals refactoring might help that
Juerd search.cpan.org/~elizabeth/ # If even only a quarter of it would ever reach Perl 6, it would be great.
obra bites his tongue
geoffb obra, what? Do you work on ponie?
xerox autrijus: any news from the xul side? 20:50
obra <- junior parrot/pge/etc project manager
geoffb obra, heh
Juerd, wow, that is a pretty impressive list 20:51
Juerd By the way, I asked for a prototype t-shirt and hope to have it by tomorrow or thursday
("s:g/5/6/;")
autrijus yeah, liz mentioned she'd like to port some of them to perl6 -- but I mentioned she really want to talk with chip/leo -- but she doesn't seem to think parrot's threading stuff is healthy now -- so maybe the haskell runcore for now? not sure 20:52
gaal nothingmuch: you're to blame for my realizing it's no longer needed 21:05
nothingmuch forgot how
gaal fields
though i gotta admit, i never use 'em in perl 5 :)
cognominal_ BooK is speaking of porting Acme::Meta::Syntactic to Perl6! 21:12
21:26 r0nny_ is now known as r0nny
brother ?eval sub foo (*@list) { say "ping" } ; 42.foo 21:28
evalbot_7682 ping bool::true
stevan autrijus: I am commiting the explicit eigenclass/class methods are inheritable fix right now 21:51
autrijus ooooh. 21:52
stevan it for sure still needs some refactoring
its about a 400% slowdown :)
class creation is much more expenisive
autrijus mmmhm 21:53
linear slowdown doesn't sound so bad :)
stevan but this is the non-optimal version
this is the "it finally works without endless recursion" version :)
it has one very ugly "magic number" in it too 21:54
brother I can't find any excuse for foo being used as a method in that eval
autrijus brother: if meth lookup fails it tries to revert into bindings in scope. 21:55
it's one of the less-specced corners.
stevan autrijus: I will clean this up a little more tomorrow, hopefully it will help the speed a bit
xerox autrijus: could you repaste the pugs slides url? 21:56
stevan but time for dinner now :) &
svnbot6 r7683 | stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - 21:57
r7683 | stevan++ | * class methods are now inheritable
r7683 | stevan++ | - altered all tests to account for this
r7683 | stevan++ | NOTE: this has caused approx a 400% slow-*down*, this is because
r7683 | stevan++ | every class now has explicit eigenclasses, and that is expensive.
r7683 | stevan++ | This should be though of as the "make it work" phase, the "make it right"
chip autrijus: I wonder if you'd be willing to recreate your SVK::Commands::List hack from Herrnbaumgarten
svnbot6 r7683 | stevan++ | and "make it fast" phases are still TODO :)
geoffb autrijus, would you mind journaling the info from the SCM BOF at some point
geoffb is interested in that sort of thing
chip autrijus: a version of 'svk list' that prints relative path of local file rather than an indented basename
autrijus chip: I sent patch to clk some time ago, not sure 22:01
geoffb: you may better ask clkao as I joined them at the final 20 mins 22:02
so maybe they talked about a lot of other things first
stevan: cool! I'll check it out
xerox: see my journal.
blog.pugscode.org/
ok, I gotta sleep.
another long day ahead tomorrow :)
autrijus waves &
geoffb clkao: same question I just sent to autrijus, namely, can you (or does someone) have notes on what came up in the SCM BOF? Inquiring minds want to know. 22:03
clkao geoffb: ya, kfogel promised to take notes 22:15
geoffb clkao, thanks. 22:16
Where would his notes be? (no ~kfogel on use.perl.org)
gaal the "arrow length" axis makes me giggle every time i see it 22:17
Shillo Woof.
gaal autr*: s/Parrotfolks/Parrotfolk/
justatheory meow
Shillo :)
gaal (in pugs slides) (mm, too late actually, now) 22:18
Juerd_ Does it make sense to have @array.chars, @array.graphs, etc?
Doesn't that feel wrong without @array.uc, @array.int, @array.sprintf, etc?
Shouldn't we explicitly mention we want a sum of individual values, rather than having these methods?
gaal Juerd_: what do they do? ([~] @array).chars?
Juerd_ Yes 22:19
Though sum(@array>>.chars) is probably more efficient
It makes no sense to me to have these methods on arrays
geoffb clkao (sorry forgot to use your nick earlier), where would I look for kfogel's notes?
Juerd_ We have hypers to make it easy, and I don't think anyone will be using this more than a few times.
clkao geoffb: i don't know, but i will let you know once it's available 22:20
gaal wait didn't the .chars-returns-list proposal go in?
geoffb clkao, thanks.
Juerd_ gaal: No... Larry's awfully quiet about that... Or I missed it.
gaal: Still, I think the point is valid regardless of chars semantics in list context
Shillo Juerd_: Don't you need something like that for print @array? 22:21
Juerd_ Shillo: Why?
gaal Yes, I see they are orthogonal.
Juerd_ Shillo: There's always sum(@array>>.chars) if you NEED the data. That is clear: what is wanted is explicitly written
Shillo Hmm... Good question. Why did I say that.
Juerd_ @array.chars only raises questions
Shillo I know I use flatten to string a lot in LISP. 22:22
Juerd_ Is it a sum? A list? A histogram?
An average, perhaps? Unlikely, but possible.
Shillo (meaning, flatten list of lists of lists... into string)
Juerd_ Characters as a property of an array makes no sense, so the answer isn't safely guessable.
dduncan hello
Juerd_ Shillo: That's unrelated 22:23
Shillo: If you want to flatten, and then count, you can still do @array.concat.chars
Shillo Mostly because it allows me to do sloppy functional programming - I do bunch of maps, conses, lists etc, then just pancake everything on output. Well, it's a useful thing for array to be able to do
Esp. if you implement it correctly.
Juerd_ Shillo: As gaal's ([~] @array).chars, which is semantically equal, it's a bit inefficient in many cases :)
dduncan question: is dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html the most up to date version of the synopsis, or is there a more up to date versions elsewhere? 22:24
Shillo That is, determine the size, prealloc, fill with chars.
Juerd_ Shillo: @array.chars can never be lvalue for pre-allocation.
It can't know how to distribute.
And some of its elements may not even be strings (another reason for not having the method at all)
Shillo Uh, why are you talking about lvalue?
dduncan that one says last updated december 2004 for synopsis 12, for example 22:25
Juerd_ Pre-allocation in Perl is usually done by assigning to an lvalue that usually returns a count.
Shillo I'd think array.chars would be implemented as low as necessary to make it fast.
Er, at as low a level as necessary.
gaal d'oh, the fib example in the pugs talk is wrong
Juerd_ Shillo: It can't be much lower than summing the individual .chars values 22:26
Shillo: As that will be required.
Shillo So the implementation would be @tmp = @array>>.chars; $str = " " x [+] @tmp>>.count; copy the individual strings 22:27
I assume strings are immutable, so this wouldn't really work - which is why lower level implementation (i.e. parrot level) would be necessary. 22:28
But concatenate-array-quickly -is- useful. 22:29
Hmm... reading above, did you mean that by @array.concat?
Juerd_ Yes. 22:30
@array.chars does not concatenate. It returns the sum of the numbers of characters in all the elements.
Shillo conveniently explains his thickness by sleep deprivation. :) 22:31
Juerd_ What does weight have to do with this?
Shillo Hmm?
Juerd_ thickness? 22:32
Shillo Oh, thick is another word for stupid. Took me a bit to catch on.
Juerd_ Oh.
Shillo I get slow when I don't sleep. :)
Juerd_ Does this imply that fat people are perceived as stupid, where you live? 22:33
Shillo now whines. You killed my joke.
Er, no.
That's thick-headed.
Purely English idiom.
Juerd_ Even if the rest of the body is fat too?
Shillo Unrelated to body fat.
Juerd_ English is SO hard to grok.
Shillo Refers to skull... er, thickness. :)
Yer telling me. It's not my first language, either. 22:34
Juerd_ What is yours?
Shillo Croatian.
Juerd_ I know absolutely nothing about croatian :) 22:35
Not even what script it uses
Shillo And a friend of mine was telling me how difficult was for him to learn... umm, Netherlandish? :)
Juerd_ Dutch
Nederlands.
Shillo Right.
Dutch. I know that. Usually. When I've slept. And stuff.
Croatian... Er, ISO-8859-2. That's Latin, with Eastern Europian extensions.
Juerd_ German (Deutsch, not Dutch) for Dutch is Niederlandisch
Shillo No, I know it's called Dutch in English. Just had a brain-fart. :) 22:36
Juerd_ Okay :)
geoffb Juerd_, thick-headed is I think directly related to "Can't you get that through your think skull?!?", as Shillo pointed out
Shillo And only speak a few words of German. I understand a lot more, mostly from all the trips to Austria.
geoffb er, thick skull, bah 22:37
Juerd_ geoffb: A thick skull could indicate extra brain mass, though :)
Shillo :)
Juerd_: Actually, it kinda refers to not enough space for the actual brain. :)
geoffb Juerd_, in the same overall displacement, thicker skull == less room for brain. :-)
Juerd_ Why would less brain require more protection? :)
Juerd_ concludes that both English AND biology make no sense. 22:38
Shillo groans and gives up. :)
geoffb cro-magnons -- thicker fore-bones, less forebrain.
Shillo Mind ya, I've been trying to learn Japanese for 5 years now. Keyword being -trying-. Now /that's/ a weird language.
coral Juerd: too much room and it sloshes around
Juerd_ Aspie meets idioms... Always interesting.
coral bangs up against the sides and all 22:39
Juerd_ coral: Heh
I think I have that. I can feel my brain mass moving when I shake my head :)
Shillo Although, some Croatian idioms tend to weird out foreigners, too.
Juerd_ Or at least it feels like what I think moving brain mass would feel like. 22:40
Shillo edges away from Juerd slowly.
Juerd_ Shillo: Can you give funny examples of croation idioms?
Shillo Hmm... Lemme think. :)
Most foreigners have really -bad- problem with... uh... I think the English name for those is incomplete verbs. 22:41
Er, complete verbs. 22:42
In Croatian, all verbs come in two forms. One is incomplete, it denotes an action that goes on, but doesn't refer to its termination. The complete verbs denote actions that finished in some way. 22:43
Now complete verbs are formed by prefixing the verb with preposition. Problem is, this changes the meaning of the verb.
English has something similar. Hold vs behold vs withhold.
In Croatian, it's completely pervasive, and you're actually allowed to use non-dictionary combinations - most people will intuitively understand what you meant. 22:44
The resulting combinations tend to be very funny, but in ways I can't even begin to translate. :) 22:45
eric256 isn't german sort of like that too?
big-red-bar-on-the-corner type words ;) 22:46
Shillo No, German abuses compound words instead. :)
This is modified words. Not quite the same thing.
Oh, did I mention 42 adjective forms (7 cases, 3 genders, 2 numbers)?
And you can't even just avoid adjectives, because past tense is formed by turning verb into one? :) 22:47
One consequence is that unlike in English, you can't talk at any length without referring to your own gender, and it's not allowed to be neuter. That kinda sucks if you're an SF writer. 22:48
juerd My home line is out 22:49
Can someone please nopaste me what I've missed?
(I'm on good old reliable radio waves now)
(Through feather, because in practice, reliable it is not) 22:50
Shillo juerd: What kind? I use GPRS as my primary net link :) )
juerd edge
misc juerd: since when ?
juerd misc: Since I typed something like "My connection is dead again :(", but I reckon that's something you never saw 22:51
pasteling "wolverian" at 80.221.10.245 pasted "what juerd missed" (21 lines, 1.9K) at sial.org/pbot/13775
juerd misc: More useful will probably be the point where I asked shillo to give some funny examples
Thank you, wolverian
wolverian you're welcome
Shillo juerd: And I went through some weird bits of Croatian grammar instead. I'm too down to think of good funny examples right now. :)
misc groumph, i was just scping to a website :/ 22:52
juerd Are these 7 cases like the cases in other languages? 22:53
Shillo Yes. Like 4 cases in German.
Only, Croatian has a lot more declinations, and those it has are a lot less regular. 22:54
juerd (nom, voc, gen, dat, acc, abl)
Shillo nom, gen, dat, acu, voc, loc, instr
Er, acu=acc
juerd What are loc and instr?
Shillo So no ablative, but it has locative and instrumental.
juerd instrumental: is that like "by train"? 22:55
"with a screw driver"?
Shillo Yep.
juerd And is locative to do with location?
Shillo Also 'going out with my girlfriend' - and yes, this goes under silly idioms. 22:56
Yep.
juerd This sounds doable :)
Shillo Problem is that adjectives have to match their nouns on gender.
juerd Though prepositions are easier to learn, because they are always more consistent (no change per declination)
Shillo So you have a small combinatorial explosion with adjectives.
juerd I myself prefer Esperanto. :) 22:57
Shillo Well, I've heard some horror stories about Dutch, too. :)
chip jeepers, I'm glad my ancestors decided to head for the New World
juerd It has nominative, accusative, prepositions and adverbs :) 22:58
Shillo Mostly to do with r, g, and throaty g appearing next to each other in some words. :)
juerd What's "throaty g"? Q)
Is that our standard g?
s.Q.:.
Shillo No idea. :)
That's second hand.
Er, second hand info. 22:59
juerd At least we have stable grammar
*cough* 14Not quite
Shillo Yeah.
I went through a grammar book on Croatian and counted about 30 declinations, once it listed all the unusual and exceptional types.
juerd Dutch has very weird and indiscribable word order
Shillo Croatian has free word order (mostly) 23:00
juerd in het huis: in the hous
het huis in: into the house
s/hous$/house/
And lots of ambiguity
Shillo In Croatian. it's 'u kuchi' and 'u kuchu' (ch is printed using C with ' on top of it) 23:01
locative vs accusative
juerd accusative for movement, I assume? 23:02
That's quite common among languages
Shillo But problem is that in Croatian, 'Jedem crvenu jabuku', 'Crvenu jabuku jedem' and 'Jedem jabuku crvenu' are all allowed and mean the same thing (I'm eating a red apple) 23:03
juerd I wish Dutch still had cases.
Shillo Actually for near objects.
Er, direct objects.
juerd Yes, that's the main function of any accusative
But combined with a location, it indicates movement, right?
(into) 23:04
Shillo You can also use dative instead of accusative, with without 'u'.
Er, but without
Yep.
So you can say 'Idem u kuchu' and 'Idem kuchi', both mean 'I'm going into the house'
The first stresses the actual entering, while the other stresses movement.
juerd Esperanto has the forms 'mi iras en domon' and 'mi iras domen' 23:05
Shillo If you want to say 'I'm going home', it'd always be 'Idem kuchi'
juerd "en domon" is literally: into the house. Here, domon is accusative of domo
"domen" on the other hand is "dome", the adverb form of domo, also modified to look like an accusative *(n) 23:06
Shillo And you can also say 'Kuchi idem' when you want to say that you're actually going home and not somewhere else.
(free word order rules :) )
juerd "domen" would be: to the place that is at home 23:07
s/at home/the house/
at home is hejme,^H, not dome
Shillo 'At home' is 'doma' in Croatian slang.
juerd Shillo: The first word gets implicit stress?
Shillo And yes, 'Idem doma' is accepted dialectism.
Yep. 23:08
juerd You probably don't find Yoda funny, if you're used to free word order :)
Shillo Well, it's not /quite/ free.
Some combinations are more weird than others.
juerd (if used to free word order, you are, then find Yoda funny, you probably do not) 23:09
Shillo Japanese word order (Which is what Yoda is using) is right out. :)
:)
For example, nouns commonly come after the adjectives. Switch is archaic, poetic, or for special stress.
juerd I remember a fortune that goes like: If so strong in Yoda, the force is, then why construct proper sentences, he cannot? 23:10
Shillo Heee!
juerd Or something like it
01:09 < Shillo> For example, nouns commonly come after the adjectives. Switch is archaic, poetic, or for special stress. 23:11
Shillo BTW, I heard they actually translated English to Japanese, then back (but with preserving the word order). What I know of Japanese tends to corroborate this.
juerd The same in Esperanto
Shillo (for Yoda)
juerd In Dutch, however, nouns have to be after their adjectives
Shillo Well, in English, too.
The weirdest word order I've ever seen is in Gaelic, though. 23:13
juerd Shillo: Too consistenty structured, the sentences are, so hard to believe that mangled through Japanese, the sentences are, it is for me
Shillo Nouns are always -before- the adjectives, and the sentence starts with a verb.
juerd But it could be that Japanese has such consitency. I don't know.
Shillo Japanese is almost perfectly consistent, yep.
juerd Shillo: That must read like RPN :)
Shillo And yes, it's almost purely RPN. Japanese, that is. Irish is its mirror image. :) 23:14
Japanese word order is Adverbs Topic Subject Objects (optionally more Adverbs) Predicate 23:15
Topic doesn't have to match subject, for extra fun. :)
English is Adverbs Subject Predicate Direct object Other objects More adverbs. 23:16
juerd That seems hard
In English, adverbs can come almost everywhere :)
Shillo Well, one aspect of it sucks even for native speakers.
wolverian Finnish is random.
juerd wolverian: I KNEW IT!
wolverian ;)
Shillo In Japanese, kanji pronounciation can depend on the context. If that context is given by the predicate, and the kanji happens to be topic, you have to look at the end of the sentence to know how to pronounce the beginning. 23:17
:)
juerd So finnish people too have no idea what other finnish say?
wolverian not quite that random. :) 23:18
juerd Shillo: Strict word order, but still not optimized for single pass parsing
Shillo: Who the hell designed that? :)
Shillo :)
wolverian in fact, it's not random at all (it's a lot more structured than English, for an example), but word order is relatively free. that's nothing special, though.
Shillo It kinda grew.
juerd It's like positional arguments that do require names.
Shillo You don't want to know what Japanese do with imported words (and it's a good bet that if something has been invented after 1800, Japanese will use the English name for it) 23:19
wolverian: Yep, like Croatian.
wolverian: Guess it goes with having a lot of cases.
wolverian Shillo, yeah, seems like so. do the rarer word orders seem more poetic in Croatian?
Shillo Yep
juerd cases in general make a language much less dependent on word order.
wolverian same here.
Shillo I read a bit on Finnish grammar. Only 2 declinations. Wusses. ;) 23:20
geoffb Shillo, OK, I'll bite, what *does* Japanese do with imported words?
juerd Ahh... Yoda is a poet!
geoffb: (Thanks)
Shillo geoffb: First, they spell them with their syllably.
geoffb: Then if they end up with more than 3 syllables, they chop of the rest. 23:21
geoffb woah
Shillo geoffb: Or rather, drop a few syllables at random.
geoffb ouch
Shillo Japanese only has 47 (I think) valid syllables, so the words can be unrecognisable even after the first stem.
Er, step
juerd A friend witnessed this when he was in Japan 23:22
geoffb Shillo, nod
Shillo And Japanese native speaker will expect you to recognise the English words without explanation.
wolverian Shillo, I'm sorry, what's a declination? I've forgotten all my language skills in the two years between high school and university :)
juerd His Japanese friend needed to translate the real English into Japanese English before the local population understood.
Shillo Words like shatsu, suripa, terebi.
geoffb Shillo, which are? I've got guesses, but . .. 23:23
juerd It now occurs to me that know what a declination is, but wolud have a hard time explaining it.
Shillo wolverian: Set of case suffixes. Noun belongs to one declination, if you know which, you know all its cases. In Finnish, there are only 2, one for clear wovels, the other for umlauts.
geoffb: Shirt, slippers, television.
juerd Shillo: LOL
geoffb Shillo, OK, I was completely wrong
wolverian Shillo, ah, right. yes. 23:24
Shillo, logical++
Swedish has four (or five?) declinations. horrible to learn even that few.
juerd Shillo: So the first step is to pronounce the r as l?
When trying to understand thes ewords?
Shillo doraiba is also funny. 23:25
juerd Latin has 3, IIRC
Shillo Screwdriver.
Croatian has... bloody LOTS.
juerd Shillo: Hard to order, I guess :)
Shillo 3 genders, and each comes with several declinations.
juerd Shillo: It's time for a language revolution. 23:26
You need a dictator obsessed with efficiency.
wolverian Shillo, does Croation have future tense?
Shillo wolverian: Well, Finnish has 16 cases. Kinda tall vs wide division. :)
wolverian erm, Croatian
Shillo, right. :) 23:27
Shillo wolverian: Yeah. Two of them.
juerd Shillo: tentative and decided? :)
Shillo juerd: You can tell Esperanto was designed by a Slavic, eh? ;)
wolverian Shillo, two? why?
Shillo wolverian: What Juerd said. 23:28
wolverian ah, okay.
Shillo 4 past tenses, 2 archaic.
Except that these 2 archaic are becoming mainstream thanks to SMS messages. They're short. :)
wolverian Finnish has tentative and decided but no future tense. it just relies on context telicity.
erm, contact _and_ telicity 23:29
ERM
sorry but: asdhakjsdhakjsdhajkdasd
time to sleep.
Shillo Well, in Croatian they're both future tenses.
juerd Shillo: In some respects, yes
Shillo You can also cheat and use present instead of the future tense (like in most other languages I know)
juerd Shillo: But it's greekish in the word stem, and said to be japaneseish in its isolation 23:30
Shillo juerd: Er, I meant, Crotian has 4 past tenses, 2 of which were, till recently, archaic. :)
juerd 4 past tenses... 23:31
Shillo Well, yeah, those 2 are redundant. :) 23:32
juerd Well, there are always many ways to describe things past
(did, have done, have been doing, was doing, ...)
Shillo Also, 2 verbal adjectives and 2 verbal adverbs.
And yes, verbal adjectives suffer from cases. Like all other adjectives :) 23:33
juerd Verbal adjectives... It sounds so wrong.
Shillo Active and passive.
Active is used for past tense.
And passive is... passive.
juerd The latter makes sense. :) 23:34
Shillo If somebody was subjected to an action, you just attach the action as an adjective.
Simoultaneity in past and present is expressed with past and present verbal adverbs.
Er, simultaneity.
juerd Like: the robbed man?
Shillo Yep.
juerd Would that be considered a correct *sentence*, were it croatian? 23:35
Shillo Yes.
juerd Weird :)
Shillo Er, full sentence? No.
You'd have to say 'The man is robbed' 23:36
juerd Oh, okay
Still some sanity.
I'm going to bed
Shillo Chovjek (man) je opljachkan. Zhena (woman) je opljachkana. Dijete (child, neuter gender) je opljachkano. 23:37
juerd Thanks for the conversation. I always like to learn superficial language trivia :)
Shillo Not as much sanity as you'd like. :)
juerd Children are considered gender neutral? :)
Shillo Yep.
juerd That must be interesting in school.
Shillo Unless you specify (boy or girl)
juerd Good night :)
Shillo Nah, boys and girls get the proper grammar treatment. :) 23:38
Laters!
Gotta go to sleep soon myself.
Same timezone.
juerd (Hm. Same applies to Dutch and German too: het kind, das Kind, both neuter)
afk
Shillo :)
Night, all!
juerd Dijete 23:39
Is that pronounced much like deity? ;)
Shillo Nope.
juerd afk now :)
Shillo :)
svnbot6 r7684 | Darren_Duncan++ | /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : officially converted all lib/*/L/en.pm files and lib/Rosetta/Validator.pm to modules; they are not supposed to be classes 23:45

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