-Ofun: xrl.us/hxhk | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 or sial.org/pbot/perl6
Set by apple-gunkies on 11 November 2005.
cognominal_ ?eval "" ~~ rx ( qw( a b ) ) 04:49
svnbot6 r8015 | Darren_Duncan++ | r977@Darren-Duncans-Computer: darrenduncan | 2005-11-28 22:01:50 -0800 06:03
r8015 | Darren_Duncan++ | /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : added new file /docs/Plan which gives a roadmap for when different pieces will be made, and implementation detail for some
dduncan Now committed /docs/Plan to both Rosetta repositories; as with /docs/Overview, any feedback is appreciated. 06:13
06:42 autrijus_ is now known as autrijus
autrijus ?eval "vanilla for now until someone revives version-specif one" 06:44
evalbot6 "vanilla for now until someone revives version-specif one"
gaal meows 06:52
what had happened to it?
dduncan I like cats myself 06:53
svnbot6 r8016 | luqui++ | r1098@jabberwock: luqui | 2005-11-29 01:14:48 +0000 08:15
r8016 | luqui++ | Did a little editing on A20.
r8017 | luqui++ | Editing on S28. 08:33
gaal luqui: ping 09:12
luqui pong 09:17
gaal, pong.
gaal hey. evelbot was borked 09:18
luqui ?eval foo
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&foo"
gaal autrijus fixed it temporarily, but this is a non-versioned version.
luqui hmm
looking into it 09:19
gaal cheers
luqui ?eval say "hi" 09:21
evalbot6 OUTPUT[hi ] bool::true
evalbot_8017 OUTPUT[hi ] bool::true
luqui don't know what the problem was. It started up smoothly.
?quit
evalbot_8017 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
svnbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
evalbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
svnbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
evalbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
evalbot_8017 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
evalbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
svnbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
evalbot_8017 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
svnbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
evalbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
evalbot_8017 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
svnbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
luqui woah
evalbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
evalbot_8017 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
luqui oh shit
svnbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
evalbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
evalbot_8017 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
svnbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
evalbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
svnbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
evalbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
svnbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
evalbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
svnbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well. 09:22
evalbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
svnbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
evalbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
svnbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
evalbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
svnbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
luqui whew
that was, um... interesting
let's fix that. 09:23
nothingmuch would like to see the URL shortening bots recursively shortening each other's shorts 09:25
luqui Except, they only shorten when the url is above a certain length, right? 09:26
svnbot6 r8018 | luqui++ | When evalbot tells you that you shouldn't ?quit in public channels,
r8018 | luqui++ | the first word is "?quit", causing other bots to respond with the same
r8018 | luqui++ | message and causing an infinite loop. Changed the message not to do that.
luqui crosses fingers 09:27
?quit
svnbot6 ?quit only available per private message so other bots don't quit as well.
evalbot_8018 you should only do ?quit in a private message so other bots don't quit as well.
Khisanth it shouldn't be so noisy 09:30
luqui hmm?
Khisanth how about no response instead of that message?
luqui then people might wonder why it's not quitting 09:31
obra luqui: what about putting that reply in a private message?
luqui that's a pretty good idea
obra :)
luqui hmm, but then if an infinite loop accidentally happens, we can't see why 09:34
it would be a privmsg infinite loop
I think it's best to keep it noisy. We can deal with it. 09:35
Khisanth how about ignoring *bot*? 09:36
or a more specific pattern 09:37
luqui Does it annoy you that much?
For example, purl is a bot, and there's certainly no way to tell that from the name. (In one of my first IRC experiences, I tried to start a conversation with purl after he replied to one of my comments :-) 09:38
Khisanth well there is always /ignore :)
devin purl is a she, not a he 09:39
luqui oh, sorry
devin (see pound.perl.org/ )
Khisanth luqui: my next suggestion was having the bots communicate with each other so they can better ignore each other :) 09:41
luqui heh
gaal evalbot was just making up for the time he was away. 10:06
luqui ?eval "hi" 11:34
evalbot_8018 "hi"
luqui ?eval "hello" 11:42
evalbot_8018 "hello"
luqui ugh, what I would give for real IPC 11:43
I mean, without actually putting it in pugs myself :-) 11:44
?eval "yo" 11:49
evalbot_8018 "yo"
luqui ?eval "mornin'" 12:37
evalbot_8018 "mornin\'"
svnbot6 r8019 | luqui++ | Added my evalbot looper. 12:40
luqui ?eval "whatup" 12:49
12:50 evalbot_8018 is now known as evalbot_8019
evalbot_8019 "whatup" 12:50
r0nny yo 13:08
got some problems with a complex multifile thing and inheritance
luqui mkay, splain 13:10
r0nny DARN
such a stupid error
forget to check if a member var is defined, but called a method of its object 13:11
so it compleined about being unable to modify Vundef
luqui hmm.. it'd be nice to have a better error message for that
did it give you a line number at least?
r0nny yeah
luqui that's good 13:12
r0nny but still i had no idea
method call on undef isnt a valid action would be much nicer
luqui I'll see if I can do that
r0nny nice 13:13
luqui hmm, I get the error "no compatible subroutine found"
do you think you can reduce your code to a simple test case?
r0nny im going to try 13:14
i got something seems to create a endless loop 13:23
luqui: may i dcc it to u - atm im in no position for a propper nopaste
luqui uh, can you email?
I don't know how dcc works in irc... 13:24
r0nny atm im also in no position to mail 13:25
luqui so, how do I do this? 13:26
r0nny well - your client is cappable
im going to send it now
luqui okay cool 13:27
r0nny in my machine it seemed to loop endless
luqui yeah, here too 13:28
r0nny hmm
odd
luqui It might be a scoping issue
let me diag it a bit
yeah, it does the same thing if you say doit($.bar) instead of $.bar.doit($.bar) 13:29
r0nny still i wasnt cappable of reprotoducing the other problem
luqui it's okay, I'm working on good error messages for those kinds of errors in general 13:30
r0nny hmm
well - im going to continue on my normal project
want to get it build simple apps 13:31
luqui okay. that problem is an infinite recursion (it calls doit() again and again)
if you can write a test for it, that'd be great
(to keep it from looping forever, keep a counter and abort if the counter gets too high)
r0nny hmm 13:32
a test helping class only counts up till a special value, and then exits might be nice
luqui but the definition of "exits" is going to depend on the problem at hand 13:34
really a lexical variable should do.
r0nny hmm
Juerd_ HELLO
:)
Eh
But without caps
luqui my $counter = 0; if $counter++ < 10 { recursive test case }
r0nny i wonder how it could possibly be stuck at this loop
luqui oh, it's quite simple 13:35
it thinks that doit() is a regular sub, so $.bar.doit looks like doit($.bar) to it
and it just calls itself over and over
the fix is to keep doit() from entering the regular sub symbol table... but that probably has ramifications.
r0nny but there is no doit() sub matches
luqui yeah, uh, that's another problem 13:36
r0nny but still it calls
luqui yep. it's obviously not doing multi dispatch on it.
r0nny odd
hmm 13:37
time to read the docs about the testing modules
luqui or just look at examples. not like there's a shortage. 13:39
r0nny luqui: got a problem with the recursion - dont know what it calls, but my exit-condition it complete ignored 13:52
luqui what does it look like? 13:53
just sketch
r0nny hmm 13:55
luqui I was saying: my $counter = 0; class foo { has $.baz; method doit() { if $counter++ < 10 { $.baz.doit } } } 13:57
I have a hard time believe that it could ignore that counter...
r0nny this way it told undefined var
luqui what?! 13:58
something very screwy is going on...
works for me 13:59
r0nny Undeclared variable: "$counter" 14:00
at t.p6 line 8, column 43-59
t.p6 line 12, column 1-9
luqui did you declare it above where you used it? 14:01
r0nny yeah
luqui send
r0nny its in the 2nd line
luqui send the code. this must be fixed.
r0nny DARN 14:02
luqui (if it is, in fact, broken)
r0nny use Test # then no semicolon, and my $counter=0;
luqui d'oh!
r0nny not it works like expected 14:03
eh now
luqui woah, so it must have been interpreting that variable declaration as an argument to "use Test"
r0nny yeah
scarry
luqui which means... inline declarations are working???!!!
luqui goes and tries
nope
:-)
r0nny i hate these kinds of bugs 14:04
luqui annoying, aren't they...
r0nny yeah 14:05
luqui but they are quickly reducing in number
r0nny wich is generally a good sign
luqui five months ago I couldn't code anything because there were so many weird bugs
now I can predict what's going to happen most of the time
r0nny well - now im going to try continuing my build system 14:06
luqui good luck 14:07
r0nny yeah
with the actual state of tools i might need more then just luck
luqui :-) anyway, thanks for being ambitious 14:08
you're finding lots of bugs for us
r0nny i only helped to find about 4 or 5 - isnt this much 14:09
well - need to go for some time 14:10
later
nothingmuch morning 14:12
luqui morning 14:14
svnbot6 r8020 | luqui++ | Well, maybe the error messages haven't improved, but at least the 15:08
r8020 | luqui++ | architecture for better error messages when subs are not found is there.
fglock is it ok for Prelude.pm to include other files? (src/perl6/Prelude/*.pm) 15:41
or is it intentionally one big file
luqui I'm pretty sure that it's okay to include other files 15:44
fglock luqui: I'm thinking about moving some things that are under ext/Perl6-* into Prelude 15:48
luqui hmmm.. like what? 15:50
(we must be careful so that we don't use up *all* the computer's memory and swap compiling the precompiled prelude) 15:51
fglock like Range, List, and maybe Array (later) - it would be nice to make a separate compilation and link later 15:54
does Prelude compile to Haskell? 16:03
luqui fglock, yes, Prelude is compiled to Haskell so we don't have to parse it every time. 16:09
I do wonder if it is possible to separate out the precompilations using hs-plugins. 16:10
then we could precompile eg. Test, which would speed up make test quite a lot
r0nny re 16:27
pmurias a python-like duality (py and pyo in python) system for perl6 modules would be handy 16:35
gaal luqui: vi config.yml, you can already precompile Test.
albeit not separately.
there was a reason why Prelude could not be broken up easily, but I don't remember what it was :/ 16:37
maybe just @INC matters.
luqui oh, yeah, I know 16:47
I tried that once, left to go get food, came back and it was still compiling
so I decided not to do that again
integral pmurias: perl5 supports .pm and .pmc files
r0nny how to compile perl5 module ? 16:48
luqui .pmc? really?
using ByteLoader?
integral luqui: yep; it wastes masses of stat calls on it
luqui Perl 6 better change the extension; .pmc means something else now :-) 16:49
r0nny what does it mean ?
luqui Parrot Magic Cookie
r0nny and wich tool generates the compiled perl5 modules ?
luqui We could follow python and make it .pmo, or follow Haskell and make it .pmi 16:50
I think it's ByteLoader
Ahh, B::Bytecode
but it doesn't buy you anything 16:51
it takes about as much time to parse a perl 5 source file as to read in a bytecode file
and you can deparse a bytecode file to see approximate source
that's why nobody uses it
pmurias it would propably make more sense to precompile perl6 to backend specific stuff then 16:54
luqui um, yes
oh, so the extension would be .pbc then, I guess
integral hmm, since pugs' parser is so slow, serialised PIL2 might be useful though, like for the Prelude :)
luqui (or whatever other extension that is commonly used with whatever other backend we might target)
integral but then we'd use .pil2 I suppose 16:55
(and it'd be compiled in)
luqui see, that's what makes me worry about compiling perl 6 with perl 6 rules
perl 6 rules are top down...
and top down parsers are slow
not only that, they're really stupid about being top down. they're always backtracking, never predictive. 16:56
unless we can optimize to predictive without breaking any of the overdefined semantics 16:57
integral umm, isn't this a pretty big flaw in the whole perl6 plan?
luqui yes!
integral luqui: actually how much backtracking is really going to happen?
Isn't the bulk of the time spent in the operator parser?
luqui ahh, yes, right.
that's why we introduced the OP parser
however, it seems that Pugs's parser uses one of those, too 16:58
but I really don't know enough about Parsec to know if that's its problem or the approach's problem
integral hmm, I've been assuming that Strings have been Pugs' bottleneck
hmm, I wonder if parsec can be instrumented to measure backtracking
luqui you mean simply the fact that strings are lists?
well, sure, just define your own "try" 16:59
integral and wedge in a little unsafePerformIO or use the builtin state, hmm
luqui stick a trace in there, and then you can see how much each try backtracks
gaal luqui: yes it takes ages and there's a long way to go, but if you intend on running make smoke it pays off. 17:02
r0nny btw -will there be something to compile perl6 modules to native code ?
integral stares at try's code and wishes he'd payed more attention to the paper 17:03
luqui r0nny, yes
well
if the backend supports it
integral r0nny: several ways probably
r0nny hmm
luqui we intend on targeting parrot at least, which can compile to native cod
e
r0nny nice
gaal parrot can do that? cool!
luqui integral, implement your own try in terms of Parsec's try
r0nny hmm
gaal how, actually, can it?
integral luqui: hmm 17:04
luqui gaal, it could at some point, I don't know if it still can
integral actually I'm ok, I remember enough of the Consumed -> Empty thingie
luqui gaal, using the "exec" runcore, IIRC
integral it used the JIT for that I think
luqui yeps
integral actually in Jonathan's LPW talk he suggested it didn't work
(and that the JIT was unloved :-()
luqui awww :-(
the JIT is parrot's pride
r0nny jit is great! 17:05
luqui we can't abandon it
it produced faster benchmarks than any other VM out there
admittedly, for very specialized code :-/
integral and compilers need to not use PMCs...
luqui well, Perl 6 provides the lowercase types for optimized code when you need it 17:06
but the potential is dubious
pmurias PMC could be unboxed by the optimizer in theory
at least...
r0nny limimiting the posibilities allways gives more room for special optimizing
luqui er... I don't think the PIR level has enough information to do that well
integral I hope there's not going to be a need to type infer PIR, ie if you know what type of PMC is in a P register you can skip it's vtable :-/ 17:07
luqui you really need that kind of optimization to happen on a very high level
integral (and then you get a uncomputed jump if you're generated TIL)
luqui If Perl 6 targets C (which isn't such a crazy idea if we use boehm), then your optimized code could be generated as native object code and linked in to parrot 17:08
<leo> [exec is] untested and probably not working much 17:09
darn
r0nny bte - how long might it take, till perl6 is finally ready
leo well, we do more optimizations - later
integral ugh 17:10
luqui why does everybody ask that
gaal if someone ever does consider a c backend, please depend on glib instead of reinventing it :)
luqui r0nny, the more people who work on it the faster it becomes ready
leo but jit/x86 runs md5.pir at half of the speed of perl5/XS already now
luqui gaal, what is glib? 17:11
r0nny i think a c++ backend might be fine ;P
pmurias luqui: The general part of GTK
gaal luqui: gtk.org's underlying make-c-sane library.
integral leo: but how fast does jit/x86 run md5.pl compiled from perl5 to PIR by a compiler? that seems more relevant
PerlJam r0nny: perl6 will be ready by christmas
r0nny YAY
;P
leo that just depends on the compiler :-)
luqui r0nny, we don't need anything from c++ since we already have all the information that it provides as "convenience"
gaal it has objects, closures, reasonable data structures 17:12
luqui we get type information from Perl programs ourselves
gaal and very high-quality code.
pmurias c++ has clousures?
r0nny neet to go - back when im back at home
integral pmurias: c++ has objects.
luqui r0nny, we just don't tell you which christmas
gaal pmurias: glib does them in straight c; but they're tricky to use.
luqui pmurias, no. c++ has as much support for closures as c does, which was my point 17:13
PerlJam r0nny: seriously though, I understand that pmichaud is working on a perl6 interpreter and we've already got pugs and the myriad ways to get from source to source, so it shouldn't be too long now. I'm still betting on a "release" within 2 years.
luqui oh
you were responding to gaal
PerlJam But even if perl6 hits the street within 2 years, it'll take another 5 or so for it to mature. 17:14
integral PerlJam: but will it be usable? especially if "we"'ll do optimisation "later"
luqui hahaha pmichaud's interpreter
(I'm not laughing at him)
(I'm laughing at the idea of Perl 6 implemented in PIR)
(and I've been laughing at that for a long time, but the rest of @Larry doesn't seem to agree)
integral the rest of @Larry isn't writing code. 17:15
PerlJam luqui: Indeed. I thought him insane at first, but then I got a look at all of the things pm has done with PGE and suddenly is seems sane. :)
integral I'd have loved a "bootstrap perl6" something stripped down, simple grammar that could be written in PIR in an obvious way
luqui well, we can still create that 17:16
PerlJam Not sure if that's a dangerous kind of sanity though :)
luqui well, I fear that writing the compiler in PIR has all the disadvantages of writing it in Haskell
and none of the advantages
integral luqui: hmm, disadvantages? non-portability away from parrot, and too small a pool of developers who can cope with its code?
pmurias is pmichaud creating a full perl6 implementation or a proof-of-concept 17:17
luqui the precise disadvantage I was thinking of was the low accessibility of the code
proof-of-concept... for now
integral luqui: I think a lot of pugs' problem there is that the code isn't written as cleanly as it could
Juerd_ Aren't PoC's always "for now"? 17:18
pmurias what are PoC?
luqui most notably because *all* of the contributors (including the architect) have been *learning* Haskell while writing it
Juerd_ Proof of Concept
luqui rather than already being familiar
well, except maybe integral
Juerd_ integral: Is that a *problem*?
integral hmm? I did learn haskell while writing it
Juerd_ integral: Or an inconvenience?
geoffb OOC, why has noone tried to write a Perl 6 -> (something) compiler in Perl 5? Everyone got discouraged by Damian's Perl6::Rules problems? 17:19
luqui oh, I thought you were already a haskeller, integral
PerlJam geoffb: someone did.
geoffb PerlJam, ...?
integral Juerd_: I think it is. The precise problem I'm thinking of is that the code is way to interconnected so that you need to understand lots of stuff over lots of files to see what's happening
luqui Juerd_, well, PoCs are supposed to be thrown away. However, most of the time (as Larry points out), they end up evolving into the real thing instead.
integral, yeah, but I'm in a refactoring phase 17:20
so maybe after school settles down I'll clean stuff up
Juerd_ luqui: Sure, but I don't see that as a problem. The classical problem, as I see it happen, is that there are no tests, and once something is used in production, everyone's afraid to touch it to clean things up.
luqui I've been wanting to clean up findSub for a long time now
integral is going to try to hack parrot these holidays 17:21
PerlJam geoffb: I'm fairly sure there were the beginnings of a perl6 compiler (implemented in perl5) in languages/perl6 at one time.
Juerd_ It's no problem, imo, to put a PoC into production, iff you clean it up later.
geoffb PerlJam, hmmm.
integral nods at PJ
luqui Juerd_, I like the emphasis on tests in that interpretation
PerlJam, yes
and it was designed terribly
so it failed
Juerd_ integral: I've yet to see a big project without much interconnection. I don't know too many ways to avoid it.
pmurias a bit of source code documentation would help a lot for grasping the pugs source code (not voluntiring for anything)
luqui (it didn't use *any* compiler hourglasses) 17:22
PerlJam luqui: were you the author? I seem to remember that too.
luqui no, I wanted to work on it
but never got into it
I think it was mostly Allison's project.
PerlJam sean burke perhaps?
luqui and sburke
PerlJam ETOOMANYNAMES ;-)
integral Juerd_: well I'm thinking of stuff like the runtime and the compiler both needing to manage pads, but doing different things with them, but it's been coded to use the same data structure for both, so they're got a big connection that shouldn't be there
geoffb luqui, no hourglasses == no intermediate rep?
luqui right. 17:23
it just went straight from syntax to generated code
Juerd_ luqui: The emphasis is on tests because I think tests, not no-longer-using-PoCs-in-production, is the solution.
geoffb ah. Oops.
luqui now we know that compilers are easy if you use *lots* of intermediate representations
squeeze the information into fundamental forms often
geoffb Still, now that PIL2 exists, there's nothing to stop someone writing a Perl 5 frontend to it . . .
integral "exists"? 17:24
geoffb integral, for some definition thereof.
Yes, I know it's not fully there, but I would think enough of it is, to get started on the frontend. 17:25
integral well that's the problem... how do you write a perl 5 frontend for it when it's not actually compiling?
oh, I'm out-of-date then
geoffb shrugs . . . but then, I'm currently writing an interpreter for a different language so I can learn how to write that sort of thing.
luqui recently wrote a toy language to experiment with type inference 17:26
luqui loves the three-node lambda calculus tree :-)
geoffb had a philosophical disagreement with his compilers prof in college, and thereby completely failed to learn anything about them.
luqui what was the disagreement
PerlJam geoffb: I had a disagreement with my compilers prof too ... but since I clearly knew more than he did, I too failed to learn anything. 17:27
geoffb He argued that the compilers class should be done entirely in Common Lisp, not because of any advantage of CL per se, but because *he didn't want to write a list-handling library for C*. I told him that's what grad students were for.
luqui and libraries also 17:28
geoffb I wouldn't have minded if he'd given me a real reason, but that was clearly bull.
PerlJam (well, I didn't learn anything *from the class*. I had my own outside reading and what not that I learned from)
geoffb So my "suspicion wall" went up like lightning.
luqui anyway, I think C is a pretty bad language for a compiler
geoffb I eventually dropped the course.
luqui as it is for anything
since you get too caught up in the bullshit details
and miss the big picture 17:29
When I first saw the Haskell representation of PIL, that's when I decided I needed to learn Haskell
that was it, the big picture, right there in 12 lines of haskell source
PerlJam haskell++
luqui and then I encoded it in Perl 6 for fun
and it was 30 lines of bullshit details 17:30
thus, I decided that Perl 6 must have tagged union types
geoffb luqui, :-) 17:31
integral tagged unions are a big thing that OO can't model :-( 17:32
well, unless you switch it all around to methods, but sometimes it's easier to work with data than methods; especially without multiple-dispatch
luqui well, you *can* model it using CPS style
and then you get *polymorphic* tagged unions, which are totally sweet
integral ugh, yes, but manual CPS is a big warning sign that you're using the wrong language 17:33
luqui yeah
gaal luqui: what are the current coordinates of those 12 lines?
luqui well, it's not that bad if you have a clean closure support
integral and in an OO language without closures, you end up passing the "continuation" as some kind of visitor-pattern thing
luqui /me looks 17:34
r0nny re
svnbot6 r8021 | bsmith++ | Silenced a unused variable warning in Pugs.Eval.Var by changing x to _.
luqui gaal, good question. 17:35
maybe they were factored away
(which is a good thing, because 11 node types is way out of the ball park)
(you need more like... 4)
geoffb sighs . . . I should have written this thing to be more debug-friendly
integral in Pugs.PIL1? but that's been moved from GADTs to sane, simple stuff
luqui ahh. it was the GADT 17:36
autrijus showed it to me at the hackathon
integral the problem there is that it was indexed with the wrong type
luqui sure. it didn't make a lot of sense in terms of a compiler 17:37
integral it could have been fixed imho just by using phantom types to index it
luqui but it definitely showed me the data structure in the essential detail and nothing more
phantom types?
integral I mean a type without any constructors
so it's just there at type-checking time
luqui ahh 17:38
how do you define such a type?
just, data Foo?
integral data Foo; IIRC
gaal I wish I could see that version, this is side^H^H^H^Hheart of pugs I'm not familiar with
integral hmm, it was in another file originally 17:39
gaal another from ...? :)
luqui I think it was in Compile.hs
in July?
integral hmm, probably
gaal PIL.Compile or Pugs.Compile? 17:40
luqui probably Pugs.Compile
integral mutters about compilation times 17:42
luqui there it is
svn cat -r "{2005-07-17}" svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/src/Pugs/Compile.hs
(on my birthday :-) 17:43
yikes, 17 nodes 17:44
that seemed small to me at the time
gaal sleep $then-$now ; happy birthday
luqui :-)
Juerd_ Hmmm... units :) 17:45
luqui mmmmh? 17:46
Juerd_ I keep hoping we'll have omni-compatible everything :)
Using unittabs and stuff like that :)
$then a date, $now a date, sleep knows durations in any unit...
s/date/datetime/g
gaal actually in DateTime.pm you can do that, but it doesn't produce a duration IIRC 17:47
Juerd_ Well, the point I'm hoping for is that sleep somehow can handle every kind of duration 17:48
Not just seconds.
gaal including negative ones, yeah :)
I gotta go, see you :-)
luqui well, using user-defined isomorphism in the new type calculus for Perl that I'm working on, that may be possible
I just need to make sure that the idea makes sense...
Juerd_ Either by having a type Time::Seconds for its argument, which other stuff coerces to, or by requiring specific unit specification :)
luqui (unlike theory.pod v1 ;-) 17:49
Juerd_ sleep 5`s;
sleep 5; # warning
integral umm, isn't it basically exponential time to find a route from type A to type B given a bunch of isomorphisms? :-/
luqui you mean dijkstra's algorithm? 17:50
cubic.
IIRC
integral ah
well that's still pretty darn long :)
luqui only if you have large sets of isomorphisms
Juerd_ use units qw(time);
Eh, <time> :)
r0nny btw - how is the claa tells me the mtime of a file ?? 17:51
Juerd_ Many can just be hard coded, pre-calced.
luqui r0nny, claa?
if it's going in the type calculus, it would all be done at compile time 17:52
and sure, you could give it hints
r0nny ops call
integral ugh, and so even longer compilers. Please, please, please remember that perl is a dynamic language
luqui yeah, I know
integral for little scripts that open a text file, then run through a while(<>){} building some objects for each line, then frobbing the objects, and then dumping them. that's how simple lots of stuff is :) 17:53
I'd love to see some features design to make perl really fast to compile
luqui and you're not using a set of 100 units to do that
don't worry, I at least have that in mind. Pretty sure that's high on Larry's list too.
integral but the module I loaded does
luqui but modules are precompiled :-)
integral but then installing modules takes ages :-( 17:54
r0nny binary dist
luqui for some definition of ages, yes.
integral oh well, better trade off :)
r0nny rafl and kane are allways working on a binary distribution system
luqui I think the thing we really need to keep in mind is that it should always be possible to trade compile time for runtime
perhaps trading type safety also in the process
because Pugs is really annoying to work on because it takes so long to compile 17:55
r0nny yeah
luqui fast compile cycle is one of the anchors of XP
r0nny i got just a few simple modules
integral but type safety is really handy when hacking
luqui well, you can speed it up by putting in explicit annotations
r0nny type-savety is important 17:56
integral (like I'm trying to build an email message, so I set the email address to $domain accidentally rather than the address object)
r0nny u can use it to optimize more for the speial cases
luqui yeah, but type inference is slow, we know that
Juerd_ integral: No, installing a module would be much faster than we're used to.
luqui so we have to trade :-)
Juerd_, why?
Juerd_ The module is compiled once, in total, instead of once, per test script. 17:57
integral ooh, that's a good one
Juerd_ It's compiled anyway. It takes very little extra to save it.
luqui I guess if you consider asymptotic bounds
integral but maybe we'll also have a sane way to not run billions of tests
luqui but also remember that perl 5's parser/compiler is extremely fast
and we probably can't get perl 6's that fast 17:58
Juerd_ luqui: And so will Perl 6's *have to be*
Or it will not find acceptance.
Except amongst python and java coders, perhaps.
luqui no, we're making other trades to compensate
like precompiled modules
Juerd_ Having a slower compiler is THE way to loose all ground on the web side of things.
luqui okay. well, like I said, there need to be trade-offs available to the user 17:59
Juerd_ I think there should be a fast immediate-run compiler. A compiler that stores things for later can be slower.
integral has had the case of the CGI script that took *seconds* to start up
Juerd_ The web thing is different because the web user typically has no write access anywhere, to store the compiled versions, and compiling manually SUCKS.
integral ok, "say 'hello'" to the pugs prompt prints about two pages of "backtracking" assuming I stuck the trace in the right place :) 18:00
s/pages/screenfuls/
luqui hmm
integral oops, dinner, see you all later
luqui but I'm convinced that perl 6's compiler can't be as fast as perl 5's, even in the no-static-analysis case 18:01
Juerd_ It'll still have to be very, very fast
r0nny but the overall time might be shorter, since all the precompiled modules save time 18:02
Juerd_ Maybe not exactly as fast, but the average user mustn't notice a difference in compile+execution speed
luqui Well, I think the bound is a little more lenient than that
geoffb And the fact that Perl 6 source can be considerably shorter may help the overall experience v. P5
luqui that is, you have to be able to compile 5,000 lines in about a second. 18:03
Juerd_ Of course, if execution is so much faster that it compensates for slower compilation, that's okay too.
luqui you have to be able to compile 1 line in a quarter of a second
because those are bounds that the average user can handle 18:04
once you go over 5,000 lines then people will start precompiling
Juerd_ geoffb: Don't forget that numerous people choose Perl not for its expressibility and conciseness, but because it's the only dynamic language that has good enough speed for today's demanding computer use.
luqui er. 18:05
geoffb Juerd_, no argument at all with that. I simply meant, if the P6 compiler chews source half as fast as P5, but the source is only half as long . . .
Juerd_ luqui: A second for 4 lines is totally unacceptable, even in the slowest of cases. We have to be at least 20 times as fast as tcl to be taken seriously :)
geoffb of course, that depends on skilled use of P6
xinming Juerd_: No, Why I choose perl is because of its expressibility. :-)
luqui Juerd_, I was assuming an approximately linear interpolation between the two bounds :-)
geoffb xinming, "numerous people", not all 18:06
xinming and have a c-like style grammar. :-)
luqui basically, a small script: 1/4 second. A medium program: 1 second. A large program: people are precompiling.
r0nny hmm
Juerd_ xinming: So do I. Many do not. 18:07
r0nny my small stuff allready needs about 3 seconds :/
and it does allmost mothing
luqui pugs is no example :-) 18:08
as far as speed goes
which I think is completely fine
it wasn't written to be fast
r0nny still its paine
luqui well, you can make it faster if you like 18:09
Juerd_ luqui: It's an example of bad speed ;)
luqui heh
r0nny btw - can pugs compile perl modulse tho hakell modules, and later use them ?
Juerd_ A very good example, even. It outperforms tcl in slowness! ;)
luqui r0nny, do you mean, can you use perl 6 modules from haskell?
or can you use haskell modules from perl 6? 18:10
Juerd_ I think he means: precompile Perl 6 modules, for Perl 6 re-use.
r0nny luqui: i want to precompile modules are loaded depending on a variable
Juerd_ But with some vague notion of how things happen :)
luqui isn't sure, to be honest
r0nny else i need to hack it, to use all modules are there 18:11
luqui r0nny, oh wait... 18:12
you want to control whether or not to use a module based on some flag?
r0nny i want to compile tha app, but depending on a varialbe it uses different modules
the variable isnt known at compile time
but it resolves to a class name 18:13
luqui oh, well I know that's impossible
in fact, it's really impossible, not just unimplemented
r0nny well
it would be possilbe, if i had all the modules put in at compile-time
luqui but you may want to look at "require"
r0nny, of course
r0nny is there a way to check if i compile, or not ? 18:14
luqui but then you're not really "selectively using" them, are you?
r0nny, I don't quite know what you mean
r0nny i am
i read what class is needed, then i use the moduile for it, and create a instance 18:15
luqui okay, you want "require"
r0nny maybe
luqui ./pugs -e 'if 0 { require Test } ok(1)' 18:16
*** No such method: "&ok"
./pugs -e 'if 1 { require Test } ok(1)'
ok 1
?eval require Test; ok(1) 18:17
18:17 evalbot_8019 is now known as evalbot_8021
evalbot_8021 Error: No such method: "&require" 18:17
luqui okay, fine
r0nny takes some time
luqui of course. you're compiling a module. 18:18
and no, I don't know of a way to precompile
r0nny btw why not use ?
luqui use runs at compile time
require runs at runtime
r0nny hmm 18:19
eval "use foo" was my actual doing
luqui it's basically the same thing. 18:20
r0nny now the prog is broken
it just wont find the file any more 18:22
all i di was changing from eval use to require
luqui just a sec 18:23
just like in perl 5, require needs a full path
if you don't hard-code the name
require "blib6/lib/Test.pm"
is equivalent to 18:24
require Test
but not to
require "Test"
r0nny is there a way to supply class names the eval use way ?
luqui what do you mean "supply class names"?
r0nny the pkg name is created by prepending a namespace prefix to the variable wich is only allowed to contain [a-zA-Z:] 18:25
luqui oh, you're asking if you can make "require" behave like "eval use" 18:26
r0nny yeah
luqui the answer is no. use "eval use".
but it's probably better to supply explicit paths anyway 18:27
so that you don't get people including standard modules
xinming is there a way to dynamically generate a class which class is the same as file name exclude the extension? ;-)
luqui which may have insecurities
xinming the class name is the same as file name exclude the extension.
luqui xinming, I'm not sure how the answer could possibly be "no" 18:28
maybe you need to clarify the question a bit
r0nny luqui: i have allways a special prefix, and the module name isnt allowed to contain suspicious stuff
hmm
luqui r0nny, would Test::More be considered suspicious?
because it could introduce an insecurity for sure.
r0nny im speaking of stuff might change the module path 18:30
darn need to go again
xinming hmm, for example, I have role defined. and we wish to write class. But we make a file contain a class. So, It's a bit like template. and we only need to make a file which only contains `class $file_name does role;`
and a new class is generated. :-/ 18:31
luqui xinming, well, perl has file I/O.
my $fh = open "$file_name", :w; $fh.print("class $file_name does role \{\}\n") 18:32
oh, and $fh.close, of course, since we don't have GC of those things yet 18:33
xinming hmm, I think we can find the files, and eval this string in that to dynamically generate the class. But we might wish to get a file list, and use require to load them.
luqui I don't understand
xinming we might prefer use require instead of eval "class $class_name does Role;" 18:34
luqui well, that preference is keeping you from getting your job done then
eval is more powerful than require. if you can't do it with require, you should be using eval. 18:35
maybe I'm still misunderstanding 18:36
if my answer doesn't make any sense, then I probably am
xinming hmm I have 2 solutions, my @files = get_pm_list; for @files -> $f { eval "require $f" } 18:37
another is, my @files = ("A", "B", "C"); for @files -> $f { eval "class $f does Role;" } 18:39
luqui if the only thing you're using the files for is to create the classes
then I don't see any reason that the first one is better 18:40
you have to create files only to immediately read them and evaluate the code
xinming I prefer the previous.
luqui but why?
xinming as we can extend the class by your preference. 18:41
luqui hmm, I see
so you want to generate the file only if it doesn't already exist?
?paste 18:42
@pate
@paste
hmm..
geoffb lisppaste3, url?
lisppaste3 To use the lisppaste bot, visit paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 and enter your paste.
luqui thanks
geoffb np
geoffb wonders
pasteling, url?
perlbot nopaste
perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: sial.org/pbot/<channel>
xinming luqui: hmm, IMHO, This is good for you to do a program which can specify module by a config file. If the module doesn't exist, then you can still get the default behaviour. 18:43
luqui okay, I see where you're going
one sec
xinming So, What I exactly want is... If there is a better way instead of using eval. :-) 18:44
luqui what's wrong with eval?
PerlJam eval has a negative stigma attached to it. It's like using goto ;-) 18:45
luqui but require doesn't?
require just reads in a file and then evals it
(I guess while just generates a few gotos in the same respect)
PerlJam If you hide the thing that makes people cringe, then , well ... they don't cringe. 18:46
xinming how about when $f = "A {}; qx:rm ~ -rf:; class B" ? 18:47
SamB comes up with a scheme to coat monads in chocolate
lisppaste3 luqui pasted "Possible solutions" at paste.lisp.org/display/14117
luqui xinming, that's why you have to filter your input
you always have to filter your input
xinming why I don't like eval is because of these, eval has too much power. 18:48
luqui make sure it matches rx:P5/^[A-Za-z_:]+$/ and you don't have that problem
xinming, so does require
require My::Cpan::Module::That::Deletes::Your::Hard::Disk
xinming ... 18:49
thanks for your solution. :-)
luqui In fact, here's the implementation of require:
sub require($file) { eval(slurp $file) }
now is require better than eval?
xinming thinks so. 18:50
oops. the same as eval. :-/ 18:51
luqui when $file = "/tmp/rmrf"; /tmp/rmrf is qx:rm -rf /:
xinming thinks perl 6 is much easier to learn than haskell. 18:52
luqui thinks so too
r0nny re
luqui haskell is about the most difficult language to learn on the planet
luqui has to go to school
xinming I still didn't catch the many ideas in haskell. 18:53
luqui: good good study. day day up. :-P
luqui it took me two months to learn, and another two months to get comfortable with
luqui &
r0nny re
xinming I just started. that's the pain.
r0nny found a nice solution 18:54
Juerd_ 19:54 < luqui> haskell is about the most difficult language to learn on the
planet
I think Russian is.
luqui heh.
r0nny are there any modules dealing with other modules ?
xinming Juerd_: why not say Chinese. :-/
luqui programming language. :-p
yeah, Chinese beats Russian by a long shot.
oh wait, I'm supposed to be gone
r0nny i think im going to write a module creates insstances of special classes in special namespaces
luqui &
Juerd_ No, Russian wins. 18:55
It looks easier, by looking logical
But underneath, it is not.
It's a hell of a lot easier to learn lots and lots of unrelated things
Than to learn lots and lots of rules, with many exceptions each.
PHP is Chinese, Perl is Russian :) 18:56
PHP's easier.
Amnesiac hey Juerd_
Juerd_ It has more stuff to learn, but you know beforehand there's no logic to it :)
luqui then what's Haskell?
Juerd_ Perl has less to learn, but what's there is harder to grok, because it looks logical, and then an irregularity will painfully bite. :)
luqui I'd say Japanese, but Haskell is harder conceptually than Japanese.
Juerd_ luqui: Esperanto, perhaps.
luqui doesn't know much about Esperanto... so, it's possible 18:57
xinming Juerd_: well, PHP has so many functions which are not uniformed. But Chinese not. :-/
luqui Chinese has so many characters!!
I don't expect the grammar is all that difficult
Juerd_ luqui: I've compared Esperanto to almost every programming language in existence, and funnily, it's always true in some way :)
r0nny are there modules help with dealing with dynamic loading of other modules ??
luqui in perl 6? 18:58
because there are plenty in perl 5
r0nny in perl6
luqui I don't think so
r0nny then im going to hack one 18:59
xinming luqui: But every characters has it's own meaning. And most used characters are only about 3000, which will composed with related base things. ;-) well, maybe I am a Chinese for I say this. :-/
luqui cool
only about 3000 huh?
gee, that's not that many
I mean, I know 26
3000 isn't that much more than 26
xinming r0nny: just specify a dir, and then paste the code luqui show. :-P
Juerd_ luqui: You very probably already know many more than 3000 symbols 19:00
r0nny xinming: im going to write a submodule loader
Juerd_ Think about traffic signs, warning signs, icons, all the character sets you know
luqui sure, but I'd have to know 3000-26 more of them to learn chinese
xinming luqui: But for express the meanings. Chinese is shorter. :-P
luqui more concise. Like perl :-)
r0nny is the namespace Loader::Submodule ok ?
xinming though Chinese sucks in Computing world. :-/
r0nny or should i use something else 19:01
luqui r0nny, maybe you should take the perl 5 module as a template?
I think it's called DynLoader or something
xinming goes to sleep
bye all for now.
luqui r0nny, search.cpan.org/~vipul/Class-Loader.../Loader.pm 19:02
is that what you're trying to make?
r0nny luqui: yeah
kinda 19:03
luqui then Class::Loader seems like a good name ;-)
r0nny mm
luqui & 19:04
r0nny it should load subclasses of different kinds
i think i can do 19:05
but it might be a bit special from the beginning
Class::Loader is using cpan to install missing stuff 19:10
i can do it- there is no sixpan
ingy_ seen autrijus 19:13
jabbot ingy_: autrijus was seen 3 days 10 hours 10 minutes 34 seconds ago
ingy_ hmm
anyone know autrijus home address?
obra ingy_: do you have the email they sent us about where we were staying for yapc? 19:14
Jooon ingy_: a_coach@somewhere_in_the_world 19:16
or maybe not yet :)
Aankhen`` goes to sleep. 19:21
G'night.
ingy_ obra: looking 19:22
Juerd_ ingy_: If he has one, I doubt you'll be able to reach him there often ;) 19:25
ingy_ I need it for visa application Juerd_
Juerd_ Ah
leo ingy_: autrijus is currently heading towards .au AFAIK (osdc::au that is) 19:26
ingy_ I really need gugod
oooo whois! 19:28
Registrant Name:Autrijus Tang 19:30
Registrant Street1:4f #8 way 1 lane 24 section 3 djr-nan road
Registrant Street2:
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Taipei City
Registrant State/Province:
Registrant Postal Code:116
Registrant Country:TW
Registrant Phone:+886.222345961
:p
ingy_ rocks
Amnesiac ingy brianson 19:33
r0nny darn 19:34
doesnt a class usually have a default new func ? 19:36
Juerd_ r0nny: Method, and yes. 19:39
DesreveR re 19:46
anything after the "any idea ..."
?
Juerd_ What "any idea ..."? 19:47
DesreveR *** cannot cast from VType (mkType "Class::Loader::new") to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode) <- i get this, if i call NAMESPACE::new(:attr<val>) 19:48
darn - everything is just broken 19:54
some time ago it still worked fine :/
RangerNS Hi all.. If I wanted to develop a compiler/interperter/somethingorother for an existing language, eventualy with parrot as its vm, what would be a reasonable route? P6 on pugs? 19:55
robkinyon RangerNS: You'll need the parser/lexer for that language 19:56
Then, you'll need to learn either PIL or PIR 19:57
RangerNS well, thats what Im thinking of writing in P6.. Its now implemented in S/SL, so conversion from one recdescent to another should be more timeconsuming then hard. 19:58
robkinyon AFAIK, Allison is developing a set of compiler tools for use with Parrot 19:59
Allison Randal, that is
Autrijus developed PIL, but it's really for Perl6 -> other language (like JS)
RangerNS When I was previously inspired, I was thinking of more or less cloning languages/perl6 - at least the structure - but thats gone now. 20:00
robkinyon though, there is a PIL <-> PIR converter already written, so you can go Your language -> PIL -> PIR
if PIL is easier for you to work towards
RangerNS I think parsing would be first on the list :)
leo RangerNS: have a look at compilers/{pge,tge} inside the parrot tree 20:02
especially the grammar parser, also used by tge 20:03
RangerNS the language is zmsh (part of ZMailer), which started as a clone of sh, but with lispy things and perly things too 20:04
chip seen autrijus 20:11
jabbot chip: autrijus was seen 3 days 11 hours 8 minutes 43 seconds ago
chip that can't be right
he was here yesterday
PerlJam seen autrijus_ 20:14
jabbot PerlJam: autrijus_ was seen 96 days 41 minutes 10 seconds ago
PerlJam the bot is clearly broken 20:15
Limbic_Region seen autrijus 20:26
jabbot Limbic_Region: autrijus was seen 3 days 11 hours 23 minutes 55 seconds ago
Limbic_Region depends on how you spell the name I guess
oh, nevermind me I see chip already did that
pmurias RangerNSL: Alternativly you could try to do it using Parsec, PIL, and something else for Tre Transformation (maybe Atribiute Grammars see UUAG) 20:30
RangerNSL: You would learn haskell that way
At least that's what I'm trying to do... 20:32
i'am at the parsec^Hr Stage 20:34
gaal DesreveR: .new, not ::new 20:38
DesreveR bangs his head on the table 20:42
*multiple times* 20:43
am i correct with the folowing : asigment of objects just copyes their "pointer", pushing/poping them, from a array, too 20:46
darn 20:50
i got a problem with some inheritance
i got a class got a special new submethod, but for some reason it wont call -_- 20:55
pmurias ?eval class A {};A.new(); 20:57
evalbot_8021 A.new();
pmurias ?eval class A {method h {"hello world"};A.new().h;
evalbot_8021 Error: unexpected end of input expecting end of input, ";", statements or "}"
pmurias ?eval class A {method h {"hello world"}};A.new().h; 20:58
evalbot_8021 "hello world"
pmurias ?eval class A {my $.a;method h {"hello world"}};A.new().a;
evalbot_8021 Error: No such method: "&a"
pmurias ?eval class A {has $.a;method h {"hello world"}};A.new().a;
evalbot_8021 \undef
pmurias ?eval class A {has $.a;method h {"hello world"}};A.new(a=>1).a;
evalbot_8021 \1
DesreveR um 20:59
my problem is, that a custom new isnt executed like it should
wolverian DesreveR, you don't generally define a custom new, but a custom BUILD. I don't know if pugs implements this. 21:12
DesreveR hmm 21:13
darn - all i want, is that this damn class sets a object to one of its attributes at startup 21:23
anyone got a hint, where changing the default ctors is described ? 21:28
wolverian S12 21:34
dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S12.html 21:35
DesreveR found it 21:36
wolverian DesreveR, note that if you need it to be initialised at class construction time, you can just write 'has $.foo = "bar";' if you need it initialised at _object_ creation time, you can just say 'has $.foo = { bar() };' 21:37
DesreveR does this work, if the atribute is inherited ? 21:41
wolverian it certainly should. I don't know if Pugs implements it.
DesreveR well - atm i got another problem - File::Find wont work like described 21:42
wolverian well, fix it. :) 21:43
DesreveR in my actual state im not cappable of such thing
wolverian well, pugs is certainly not ready for production yet. 21:44
DesreveR why does $foo=`prog`; not work ? 21:48
and is there a alternative ? 21:49
wolverian: found the error - it uses the module keyword, where it should use the class keyword 21:55
wolverian qx(prog) works, I think.l 21:56
s,\.l,.,
DesreveR can someone fix the error in File::Find 21:58
its just making a class of the module, so it works like expected again
Khisanth ?eval if(1){ my $foo = 1 } say $foo 22:13
evalbot_8021 Error: Undeclared variable: "$foo"
Khisanth phew
luqui stevan, ping 23:13
buu hrm 23:20
Does the p6evalbot respond to join commands?
luqui I think so 23:21
buu er, how? 23:22
evalbot_8021: join
luqui ?join #channel
buu evalbot_8021: join #buubot
?join #buubot
Er
luqui I don't think it responds to name, and it might only respond to privmsg
buu No that worked
But I got the svnbot as well
luqui heh
wolverian heh
luqui so privmsg is a good idea
buu Not quite what I had in mind
oh
heh
Ah right. 23:23
Khisanth luqui: what happened to the message spamming? :)
luqui I don't think it spams for ?join, just for ?quit 23:24
buu Heh, now how do you make them leave?
luqui look
s
integral do you want it out of #perl, buu?
Khisanth ?part ?
luqui heh... you don't
Khisanth leave? reconnect?
SamB luqui: maybe you kick them 23:25
luqui that would work
... if you can
integral if it's #perl, buu, I can kick easily
luqui ?eval "someone is committing" 23:27
23:27 evalbot_8021 is now known as evalbot_8023
evalbot_8023 "someone is committing" 23:27
SamB ?eval "hello"
evalbot_8023 "hello"
SamB ?eval "hello" "hello"
evalbot_8023 Error: unexpected "\"" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
SamB ?eval "hello"("hello")
evalbot_8023 Error: cannot cast from VStr "hello" to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
luqui ?eval ::("say")("hello") 23:28
evalbot_8023 Error: cannot cast from VType (mkType "say") to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
SamB hmm, I guess that is something like a type error
luqui ?eval &::("say")("hello")
evalbot_8023 OUTPUT[hello ] bool::true

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