-Ofun: xrl.us/hxhk | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 or sial.org/pbot/perl6
Set by apple-gunkies on 11 November 2005.
svnbot6 r8179 | autrijus++ | * fixed threaded-ghc detection in Makefile.PL. 00:18
r8180 | autrijus++ | * During "make install", the build system will still warn for 00:24
r8180 | autrijus++ | "make register" even if Cabal has already registered for the user.
r8180 | autrijus++ | * If the user has a local perl directory but is not root (and hence
r8180 | autrijus++ | cannot write to the global GHC package configuration file), do not
r8180 | autrijus++ | attempt to register as it will trigger an obscure error.
r8180 | autrijus++ | (Both reported by Andrew Savige.)
dduncan r8158 has a 'make' failure when compiling Pugs.Run, citing Pugs/PreludePC.hs 00:29
trying later version ...
now trying r8172 00:31
audreyt hm, the Perldoc-Kwid and YAML-Syck situation is really bad. 00:37
ingy: will you have slices of time to fix either of them, or should I give it a go, or do you know other interested parties? 00:38
(for p5)
stevan audreyt: ping 00:44
stevan curses his shody IRC client 00:45
audreyt stevan: yo
stevan: the bridge makes sense.
stevan audreyt: cool
audreyt stevan: I think I need an ObjSpace minilang as well
Pugs.MM.Parser
stevan what is the first mini-lang for?
audreyt that has additional forms tailored to OO, such as "class {}"
the first one is just core native types. 00:46
the second minilang subsumes the first
stevan to describe them? or to use them?
audreyt and desugars to the first
to use them
they are the moral equiv to your s-exp
stevan ok
audreyt and the second MM lang will have signature forms
stevan so a mini-lang on top of a mini-lang :)
audreyt for which we'd need first-class types
stevan ok 00:47
audreyt so I'll go back and add it as a native type
stevan cool
I was mostly envisioning the module-signature type as being a hash of (Str -> Method)
audreyt PickAxe has two pages (or was it threE)
that lists the builtin types and methods 00:48
I think we need that as well
stevan ok
isn't that S29 actually?
audreyt it turns out asavige has written an entire book about Data/C++
no, S29 needs to be reformed into just a list of default imports 00:49
that's more like S30
and each class would need its own manpage
stevan ok
audreyt so "perldoc Int" would behave sensibly
stevan If we can get @larry to add doc strings to the language we can autogenerate it all :)
so wont the second mini-language essentially be a minimal Perl 6? 00:50
stevan is envisioning a PASM & PIR type relationship between the two mini-languages 00:51
is that what you are thinking?
audreyt stevan: yes, I think it will grow to be PIL2
yes.
stevan ok
audreyt but we may need more forms to get dependent types etc
but that's not for this milestone
stevan ok
audreyt it's a dynamic language in this milestone (with types as assertions)
stevan audreyt: so is the mini-lang documented anywhere? 00:54
in other words,.. can I mess around with it?
audreyt stevan: if you would like, please sprinkle haddocs around the source
just write in {-| ... -} blocks 00:55
stevan ok
audreyt the relevant haskell source is PIL.Native.Types line 41
the parser forms are all in P.N.Parser 00:56
pretty forms are in P.N.Pretty
you can experiement with "make pil"
between those three I hope you'd be able to figure out the syntax forms
and document it a bit -- feel free to muck around as well
I'll do the same for bootstrap itself in PIL.MM.Types
PIL.MM.Parser and PIL.MM.Pretty
exactly like you envisioned 00:57
stevan ok
excellent :)
audreyt stevan++ # excellent visionary for this coding monkey
stevan blushes 00:58
audreyt *smile*
dduncan 8172 has same failure ... returning to HEAD and trying a make realclean 01:01
now building 8180 following a make realclean 01:05
svnbot6 r8181 | autrijus++ | * More build system tweaks: 01:06
r8181 | autrijus++ | - Don't let the user continue if "Setup" cannot be built
r8181 | autrijus++ | (usually indicated a broken Cabal install)
r8181 | autrijus++ | - Prompt the user to install as root if it looks like
r8181 | autrijus++ | $Config{sitelib} is not writable.
clkao audreyt: 1.06 works alright? 01:10
stevan audreyt: I think I grok the mini-lang now
audreyt stevan: wow, like, in 10 minutes
stevan are "nil" and "true" literals?
audreyt clkao: it does, but provides: is broken
stevan: yes, and false
stevan Parsec is very readable :)
audreyt I mean yes, and "false" 01:11
stevan: yeah, isn't it :)
actually I left out "false"
please add it in
that will be your first haskell commit :)
stevan I still have trouble following actual Haskell code,.. but I can grok the "spirit" of the code
:)
I will add some Haddock too so that its more than a single line commit ;) 01:12
audreyt stevan: cool :) 01:13
rafl: my intention is to schedule 6.2.11 with next parrot
like, one or two days after next parrot 01:14
rafl audreyt: Great, thanks.
audreyt if we did get bootstrap hooked at that time (which is possible but don't count on it), we'll call it 6.28.0
but one way or another there will be a release that works with the parrot-with-nonbroken-lexical-pads
clkao audreyt so it's not indexed properly?
audreyt (we can't target this current parrot)
clkao: "provides" was typoed as "procides" in META.yml
clkao: I am deeply sorry (already fixed in M::I) 01:15
(M::I 0.41)
clkao oh !*(#@&$
audreyt yesterday I warned you in #svk... probably missed it 01:16
clkao can you ask konig to do proper manual index for me (or you can do so?)
audreyt you can release 1.07 and just rant against me in the changelog and rel announcement. you have been known to do so.
obra actually, you can do reindex by hand now 01:17
stevan audreyt: are closures represented as p6-ish pointy blocks?
obra and version re-indexing
clkao no, i don't want to release 1.07 01:18
audreyt stevan: yes. better syntax welcome
obra: oh really. how?
clkao i've only done that ranting about myself
obra audreyt: hang on
stevan audreyt: nah, I like pointy blocks :)
clkao konig did manual index for me before provides: is ever actually in use
audreyt clkao: you did that for 0.25. 01:19
obra pause.perl.org/pause/authenquery?A...et_version
clkao XD
stevan audreyt: how do I call a constructor? ::bit.new() ? 01:20
clkao right i shall get some sleep
audreyt stevan: you can only write literals 01:21
stevan: they are their own constructor
stevan ?
I dont understand 01:22
audreyt barewords are constructors
no other forms yet
stevan ah
so true or false
audreyt yup
stevan nice
audreyt which is a problem with composites
[1.add(2)] is currently illegal
as is [$v] 01:23
to support them though will need either new forms
stevan hm
audreyt or explicit .new method
and I'm not sure we really need them yet
as it can be done with [].append(1.add(2))
but we'll see.
stevan ok
audreyt maybe the parser should just desugar this to that.
feel free to implement it :) I'm going to give two talks 30 minutes from now 01:24
stevan no need for sugar at this point
stevan doubts he will implement any Haskell tonight :)
comments I can do
Juerd_ Good night everyone
stevan night Juerd_
audreyt stevan: fix the "false" too 01:25
bbiab
stevan audreyt: is there any form of assignment? Can I "name" things? 01:47
audreyt going to UNSW for the talk 01:55
stevan ok
I will keep digging
audreyt stevan: assignment is on the MM level since it works with containers
stevan ok
audreyt you can name things by saying
(->$x{...}).call(3)
which names $x to 3
we can have a "let" form as sugar as well
if you want
stevan oh I see
ok
audreyt I need to run now 01:56
stevan no,.. thats cool for now
enjoy
audreyt++
MacVince how do I get Perl 6 on my PC? Either with darcs or svn, the command's not on pugscode.org from what I can see. 02:05
stevan MacVince: svn co svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/
MacVince Thanks
dduncan so the head compiled fine 02:18
trying a smoke ...
on another matter ...
obra 'evening
dduncan I hear from 1-2 hours ago that there is a plan to release a 6.2.11, following the next parrot release 02:19
I assume that parrot would be 0.4.1 ... do you know when that is?
stevan dduncan: or 6.28.0 if we can get the metamodel bootstrapped
obra dduncan: parrot releases are monthly
tewk_ dduncan: yep, I would guess end of the month 02:20
dduncan I suppose in 3 weeks then
then I'll try to have my database stuff in some working form by then
I'm even putting aside another project and working on it today
so at 6:18 local I started a smoke of a cleanish-built r8180 02:21
after 4 mins, its at ext/File-Spec ... it may be too soon to tell, but the speed problem may have been a phantom and may be gone now 02:22
18 mins in, now on ext/URI 02:36
now at 6:40, on t/builtins/io 02:40
performance seems normal
stevan audreyt: I am getting errors about ghcconfig.h not being there when I try "make pil" 02:59
dduncan I was away from comp, but the smoke is now done 03:13
so it completed in under an hour
seems back to normal to me 03:14
I suspect the problem may have been a dirty build on my system, and not anything that was checked in ...
or if it was a bad checkin, that was fixed in the last 10 revisions
now uploading the smoke result 03:15
done 03:18
the official "repository snapshot / darwin" is now 51 minutes, much better than that 345 minutes yesterdayish
Alias_ seen audreyt? 05:17
Alias_ misses not having purl
gaal morning 05:25
Alias_ afternoon
gaal dduncan: so I take it it wasn't 8153 that caused the slowdown? whew :-) but I still wonder what it coulda been.
hey Alias_ 05:26
dduncan hello
gaal dduncan++; # thanks very very much for tracking this
dduncan gaal, I never tracked it down per se
I can guess that either the problem was on my machine, or it just came and went ... the former is more likely 05:27
gaal dduncan: at least we know that refactoring Exp wasn't responsible. it would have sucked if it were, because it'd mean forward maintainership would be hurt 05:28
dduncan one thing that I did notice is that the current version getting code doesn't work properly when one checks out an older revision and has a local repository ... while the files are rolled back, the current version reported by pugs is the latest revision ever committed
I think
one clue that the problem was just my machine is that the linux smokes seemed to be fast as ever, as reported 05:29
gaal you mean, svn co -r XX some/file ; make ; ./pugs -v says YY?
dduncan um ...
not sure
gaal that makes sense, if some/file isn't responsible for versions :)
dduncan but its a minor matter even if I did see a problem, since it doesn't affect the newest version by definition 05:30
gaal doesn't look like a problem to me, becuase I can't envision any sort of solution that makes sense. ./pugs -v => "all files are rX except for some/file and that/other/file which are rY, and oh, /that/one/there is rZ 05:33
nobody would ever look at versions anymore :-)
in a project that was massively forked maybe that could be useful though 05:34
dduncan so nothing needs to be done
with this matter
gaal I think I've seen c projects that take care to have symbols populated from CVS so that every file had this stamp. If you need that level of versioning, ok I guess, but I'd rather not need it! 05:35
(you know, you can't really stop there either. say I co rX, then hack on file f1 but don't check it in yet. f1 will report version X, but of course it isn't a pristine X any more. This actually *is* an issue for smoke tests, where careless hackers (*whistle*) forget to remove some experimental code they'd left in somewhere, run and submit a smoke, and in fact some of its results are bogus.) 05:37
gaal has been guilty of that one :/ 05:38
Alias_ CVS-based versioning is bad 05:39
gaal whatever, i'm not advocating that
Alias_ It makes it almost impossible to have someone else work on the code in their own repository 05:40
ack... feature that audreyt was supposed to implement in M:I isn't... :/ 06:07
aaaahhh... it got implemented, but apparently not added to the Manifest 06:10
svnbot6 r8182 | Darren_Duncan++ | r1246@Darren-Duncans-Computer: darrenduncan | 2005-12-11 22:22:00 -0800 06:25
r8182 | Darren_Duncan++ | /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : updated SQL/Routine.pm to add new (empty) classes ::Document and ::Node, updated Rosetta.pm to add ::Interface, ::Interface::fubar (a placeholder), ::Engine; in both files, added a template INTERFACE pod and expanded the VERSION pod
r8183 | Darren_Duncan++ | r1252@Darren-Duncans-Computer: darrenduncan | 2005-12-11 23:03:25 -0800 07:04
r8183 | Darren_Duncan++ | /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : minor README update; the pre-rewrite Rosetta svn depot has moved
dduncan g'night folks 07:06
ingy rafl: pong 08:51
rafl: msg me 08:52
audreyt: will I have slices of time to fix either of who?
audreyt: I may have slices of time if you feed me slices of cake... 08:55
xinming where to get the irc log message for this channel please? 08:56
Alias_ She'll be busy until 2-3 hours 08:57
Giving a talk at Sydney.pm tonight...
blm ?
xinming hmm, I mean the log bot 09:00
Alias_ google? 09:01
in fact, the pugs website has a link 09:02
xinming No, I can't get the channel log through the link provided in www.pugscode.org
Alias_ colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/...2005-12-12
xinming thanks
Alias_ That's where the link takes me...
xinming the redirect procedure seems to be a problem here, ISP is broken. :-/ 09:06
PJF Ahoy there, m'hearties! Is it reasonably for me to alter the pugs makefile to also remove 'tempfile.*.*' and 'temp-test.*.*-out' as part of a 'make clean'? 10:22
Given their names I presume they are temporary, and hence prime candidates for sweeping during a clean operation.
Good. I was hoping nobody would object. ;) 10:24
svnbot6 r8184 | pjf++ | Remove temp-test.*.*-out and tempfile.*.* during make clean 10:27
Alias_ GODDAM FUCKING PUZZLE PIRATES 10:35
PJF Arrr? 10:38
Everything okay, Alias?
Alias_ WASTING TIME 10:45
blm I must try this puzzle pirates :-) 10:49
PJF I'm not sure if it was a good idea showing it to Alias...
blm PJF: Dont we need distractions now and then 10:55
PJF: ?
PJF Oh aye. Although Puzzle Pirates can be very distracting. ;) 10:56
www.puzzlepirates.com
We're on the Sage ocean. Alias here is "Peucebeard", and all the Python/Twisted people hang out in crew "The Squishy Few".
blm :-) 10:57
Cool
No luck 11:22
PJF No luck?
blm Firewall problems
PJF Arr.... 11:23
blm Shiver me timbers!
I need a good name
PJF Pugsbeard. ;) 11:24
blm Firewall has been beaten :-)
danke :-) 11:25
PJF That didn't take you long.
If it's your first login, you may wish to exit off the character creation screen, and pick "Sage" as your ocean on the login screen.
Otherwise you won't have the joy of beating Alias at swordfighting for hours on end. ;)
blm So just hit cancel without creating a pirate? 11:26
PJF Yup!
It picks a random ocean (aka server) when you first start, for load balancing reasons. 11:27
blm Already on Sage :-)
PJF Good good.
Alias_ NO! 11:33
Don't do it!
Having fully evaluated the wonder and hilarity that is Puzzle Pirates, I have decided I must allow it to dominate my life, of vanquish it, and send it to the briney bottom 11:34
I have chosen the latter
PJF Most wise.
kane-xs_ pff... chicken ;)
Alias_ AR!
So now I'll just have to stick to CPAN the Gathering
PJF laughs. 11:35
Alias_ IT IS DONE 11:39
blm Need more pirate sayings :-)
Alias_ Now I can be the only person to say I have "Defeated" Puzzle Pirates
PJF www.talklikeapirate.com/howto.html 11:40
gaal PJF: Arr! It's obvious you are on windows because those are cleaned automatically on other platrorms 11:41
but PJF++ nonetheless!
(I used to be on Midnight for a while, but haven't logged in in a while) 11:42
blm I know a few people I can make completely ineffective with Puzzle Pirates ;-)
PJF laughs
gaal haha
Alias_ waves 11:43
nobody shows audreyt
:)
blm Yes that could be bad :-)
PJF Aye, I agree there. Audrey should definitely be kept away.
Alias_ She's apparently only barely recovered from the Nethack addiction
grr... I really dislike that XML::SAX::Writer->new doesn't return a XML::SAX::Writer object 11:45
But then the SAX toolkit of modules is amazing enough I'm willing to overlook it
PJF Nethack was glorious. I spent a goodly amount of my student life playing that game.
Alias_ Team Fortress for me
in retrospect, I'm glad my addiction was a multiplayer game 11:46
Because no single player game can hold me for more than a few days now
Becoming a programmer also helps, because your disgust at the crappy AI translates into innoculation 11:47
PJF I loved team fortress, but my P90 and 36.6k modem didn't.
wolverian subspace!
Alias_ Did I mention I administered the residential college LAN? So I had 100meg ethernet to fibre in my bedroom
Which has kind of innoculated me from getting shitty about low connection speeds :) 11:48
blm Alias_: hmmph spoilt on campus students ;-)
Alias_ Since nothing I will ever have will compare to it
blm I used to work at a games place with 20 computers that the public could rent time on to play netgames 11:49
It innoculated me from spending too much time playing multiplayer games on the net as Broadband < LAN 11:50
Alias_ yeah... still, CPAN the Gathering is the ultimate game
blm I haven't got that game yet :-) 11:51
PJF taps Alias and cats Summon Acme::Everything.
Alias_ Fortunately, I don't even know what that means
I only lived with game players, I managed to resist their smelly ways 11:52
PJF Well, avoid the cardboard crack as well. ;)
Alias_ But some culture leached into my skin
gaal audreyt: bug report re: search.cpan.org/~autrijus/Acme-emcA...me/emcA.pm 12:06
"This document describes version 0.04 of Acme::ComeFrom, released November 8, 2002."
Alias_ snickers... bug reports for Acme modulkes 12:07
Just submit it to RT
audreyt gaal: fixed 12:09
svnbot6 r8185 | autrijus++ | * convenience function "eval" for work in the "make pili" interactive shell.
Alias_ ah, you're back 12:10
audreyt skud++ # volunteering to help the p6doc/pugsdoc effort
Alias_ audreyt: You forgot to add M:I:Share to the dist
Or at least, it didn't make it to the version that went to CPAN
PJF Evening Skud! 12:12
Skud evening
fancy seeing you here 12:13
gaal rehi all
bug reports for Acme modules are very important! :) we must bring silliness to perfection. 12:14
Skud audreyt: got your invitation, thanks. doing the necessary now.
PJF Funny that. ;) We seem to keep bumping into each other. ;)
audreyt Skud: yo! :)
Skud pjf: was just thinking of you today, actually, as i updated my resume and tried to figure out what to say about the training notes 12:15
Alias_ gaal: Perfect Chaos? Is that even a concept?
gaal It's an imperative! 12:18
PJF Skud: I think you should say very good things about the training notes. ;) Is my memory correct that you were looking at working at a nice non-IT centered place, like a museum?
gaal like "time flies when you're having fun". 12:19
Alias_ You are leaving IT during the Great Perl Drought?
kane-xs_ who's actually droughting right now? 12:20
audreyt gaal: won NAPC no si 01.0 Acme::emcA 0.10 is on CPAN now :laag
gaal audreyt: ×Ŗודה ×Øבה 12:21
audreyt :)
gaal hahahaaa! irssi screws up the timestamp for that line 12:22
Alias_ kane-xs_: It's not quite 2000 all over again, but it's heading that way
Skud pjf: yes, my ideal job would be to do the sort of stuff i'm doing (LAMP plus kinda broader ranging generalist stuff) in a museum setting.
Alias_ ooohhh... still coding, but somewhere nicer :)
Skud pjf: there's a good looking opening at hte national library of australia that i'm going to apply for.
kane-xs_ alias: jobs.perl seems rather slow for that in .eu at least 12:23
in general, not many perl'ers asked for here
gaal would love to live in the kind of city that had a full time job for a museum techie who did LAMP stuff.
Skud gaal: well, this is library information systems
and it's the australian equivalent of the LoC
gaal ah!
Alias_ Wouldn't the National Library mean Canberra?...
Skud alias: yes, it would. but i survived ottawa, which is like canberra only less pretty and 30 degrees colder. 12:24
Alias_ hahahah, right, forgot about that
gaal 30 degrees in what scale?
svnbot6 r8186 | autrijus++ | * PIL.Native: introduce the idea of slurpy primitives (primX) --
r8186 | autrijus++ | [].push(1,1.add(1)) for example. Was going to desugar [1, 1.add(1)]
r8186 | autrijus++ | into that form, but then was distracted to give four talks in a row.
PJF Skud: Sounds fantastic. Good luck with the application.
Skud i mean, canberra's not my idea of a great place to live, but it's an OKish place, and i've had a stint of "real city" so i'm kind of refreshed and ready to face the vicissitudes of whatever my career demands next.
thanks pjg
Alias_ Skud: Sure
Skud pjf even
alias: also, sydney is too humid for my tastes :) 12:25
Alias_ Compared to Melbourne?
PJF What confuses me with Canberra is it's so seasonal. I have to keep checking if parliment is going to be in season before travelling there.
svnbot6 r8187 | autrijus++ | * add the missing "false" literal to PIL.Native.Parser
r8187 | autrijus++ | as it seems Stevan didn't get around to that yet :)
PJF And Canberra is filled with people who can't tell me what they do for a job, except that it must involve Perl. 12:27
audreyt Skud: feel free to poke around docs/* and try to make sense of it -- asavige and I will try to type out the doc tree reorg braindump tomorrow and post it into the tree
Skud pjf: why does parliament affect you?
audrey: i'm probably not even going to do a checkout for a few days yet, i'm afraid.
audreyt but my brain's fried after giving five talks today, and so I'll have to sleep and check back tomorrow :)
Skud: oh, cool, that's fine
Alias_ audreyt: Can you release M:I 0.43 before you go? 12:28
Skud life's kind of crazy right now. too much bloody seasonal crap, plus i'm kind of braindead with hayfever at this time of year.
Alias_ Just make sure ::Share is in the dist this time, otherwise no change
PJF Skud: Parliament means more expensive airfares and accomodation. So if we're going to organise training courses in Canberra, we try to do it in the "off season".
Skud oh, right.
i never did training in canberra
mostly did melb/syd with the odd jaunt elsewhere mostly for corporate stuff
audreyt Alias_: k 12:29
Alias_ thans
thanks
Skud pjf: this is the job ad: www.nla.gov.au/jobs/1707aps5-6.html
PJF Skud: We were surprised at how popular Canberra has been. A few departments are jumping into Perl in a big way.
Alias_ audreyt++ # Still catching up
PJF: Unlike in the corporate world, government has to be more accountable on costs
audreyt Alias_: also author_from form is in
and all_from will use it
Alias_ ok
Skud audreyt: mind you, i may well check it out at work instead/as well ... i'm moving desks and will be closer under my boss's eye, but perl looks like work ;)
audreyt also if you've explicit set stuff before, all_from won't try to guess those
Skud: cool :D 12:30
PJF Skud: Nice that Duty #1 mentions open source explicitly.
Skud pjf: yes. it's all OSS by the looks of it. looks like lots of glue and XML.
PJF And Duty #3 is to hang out with Audrey.
Skud yes!
Alias_ PJF: Also, my spies tell me that the anti-microsoft rubmlings in government grow louder, so I imagine when you start moving more things to linux, there's a rise in Getting Stuff Done work involved in that
audreyt: An explicit after all_from will overwrite though? 12:31
audreyt Alias_: sure
Alias_ ok, just double checking
audreyt Alias_: but you'd more likely to put stuff for all_from fails to guess 12:32
PJF Alias: Canberra is still around 50/50 between training on Windows and *nix. If anything the percentage of training on Windows has been increasing rapidly. I think that's because Perl is becoming much more popular, rather than *nix becoming less popular.
audreyt so still makes sense for all_from not overwrite
Alias_ Oh, and I want 10 minutes at some point to resolve a clash between module-level and dist-level share
But no hurry there
PJF Skud: The mention of FOSS throughout the position sounds very nice. Good luck with the application, it looks like a great job.
audreyt ok... tomorrow at earliest... I can't think right now
Alias_ sure sure 12:33
audreyt Alias_: 0.43 is on CPAN
Alias_ My code works, so I can wait weeks
Skud what's the url for RSS of a use.perl journal?
never mind. *views source*
PJF Skud: There's also use.perl.org/~skud/journal/friends/rss to get a feed of all of your friends. 12:34
Skud pjf: hrm.
PJF Replace 'skud' with a different login if you want to get a feed off someone else's friends.
Skud i should probably do that. but i mostly read my friends list via LJ.
pjf: do you blog regularly anywhere? 12:35
PJF I found that my journal had snuck onto LJ at the other day.
Skud i read a few use.perl journals via lj
Alias_ You can do that?
Skud yes. livejournal.com/syn/
PJF Skud: pjf.id.au/blog or use.perl.org/~pjf/journal or advogato.net/person/pjf or www.livejournal.com/users/paul_fenwick/
Skud add syndicated feeds to LJ, and then you can friend them like a person or a community
pjf: which do you post to regularly? 12:36
Alias_ oh, you need a lj login
Skud alias: *nod*
gaal i can add syns to lj
PJF Skud: They're all the same. I post to pjf.id.au and it pushes it out to everything else.
Skud ok. i'll friend your lj then. costs me less syn points :)
gaal note that if you do, it's a good idea to use _rss or _feed suffix, so that if the person opens a real lj some time later their name is still available. 12:37
Skud or if you're syndicating from use.perl do something like foo_useperl
gaal oh, but i see www.livejournal.com/users/paul_fenwick/ already exists.
PJF Gaal: I have enthusiastic friends.
Gaal: I don't mind. I was wondering how to push it out to LJ for a while. ;) 12:38
Skud pjf: did you ever have one of those vi reference mugs back in teh day? 12:39
PJF Skud: Unfortunately not, although I had a friend who did. They're one of the big reasons we decided to make regular expression mugs.
Skud: I should put a photograph of them online. They've been pretty popular so far. Audrey's got a few, if I recall correctly. 12:40
Skud are you giving them away as promotional wossnames?
PJF Skud: We certainly are. Everyone at OSDc received a mug. We're handing out a few to regular clients, and the rest will probably go to user group meetings. 12:41
Skud PJF: well, put one aside for me?
PJF Skud: Gladly! If you're going to be at LCA I can even deliver it to you in Dunedin (spel?). 12:42
Skud nope
i have no budget for travel at hte moment
alas
tell you what i do have, though... i have new perfume that smells of pencil shavings!
PJF Skud: Pencil Shavings? You're going for smart-smelling perfumes? Perhaps one that smells like solder? 12:43
Skud hee! yes, in fact! 12:44
one of my other favourites from this mob is called "brimstone" and it's kind of ashy and metallic
PJF You have one that smells like solder?
PJF laughs! 12:45
That's fantastic!
Skud they're from Black Phoenix Alchemy Labs, who make these essential oil blends that are kind of notorious for interacting oddly with people's body chemistry
the brimstone one smells like beetroot on my best friend
PJF That's not altogether bad. Beetroot is a wonderful vegetable.
Skud smells awful on marna though
PJF Do I know Marna? 12:46
Skud on me... smells like a cross between a campfire and iron filings
doubt it. she lives in ottawa.
the pencil shavings one is called "lear" and contains white cedar, bay, and sage.
PJF Sounds like good stuff. You've got me thinking of other "smart smells" now. 12:47
Skud i've got one called "lightning" that i haven't tried yet
it's meant to be ozoney, but it smells like cheap disinfectant in the sample bottle
PJF Skud: From what you've said, it could smell like just about anything once you wear it. 12:48
Skud mind you, with BPAL that could be a good thing
yeah
PJF Do I dare ask who/what BPAL is? Or should I wikipedia for it? 12:49
Skud black phoenix alchemy labs
PJF Ah!
Skud www.blackphoenixalchemylab.com/
PJF Goodness me, that's quite a navigation menu. 12:50
Skud they have this system where you can order 6 sample bottles for a fairly small price, and then everyone kind of shares and swaps them. there's a whole market in bpal samples.
yeah, it's a bit of a PITA to navigate. the search is handy.
i started by searching for "masculine" scents, since anything floral or fruity smells like puke on me
PJF Now I really should be getting to sleep, before I start investigating perfumes that smell like freshly washed neoprene...
Skud heee! 12:51
and yes, it's past my bedtime too. i suck at this whole early-to-bed-early-to-rise thing.
PJF Actually, Alias probably had to put up with that smell last week. I hope he didn't mind too much.
Alias_ with what now?
Skud the smell of pjf's new latex fetish outfit
PJF Alias: You were in the room in which we normally store our scuba equipment.
Alias_ ooohh... 12:52
Didn't notice a thing
Except I kept wondering if the homebrew bottles were going to explode in the night
PJF Good! The fan was a worthwhile investment then.
Skud death by homebrew!
ok, bedtime.
gnite, folks
PJF Not the ones in your room. We had a few explosions from ones in the laundry during your stay.
Night Skud!
Great catching up with you again.
And yes, past my bedtime too. 12:53
Night all. Happy documenting!
audreyt g'nite PJF, Skud
audreyt waves &
Alias_ night 12:57
blm Goodnight
fglock audreyt: is the new mini language going to replace PIL2? 12:59
rafl fglock: He said something like that yesterday evening, yes. 13:01
meppl guten morgen 13:03
svnbot6 r8188 | fglock++ | * set svn properties
kane-xs_ hi rafl
i seem to have a fubared svk checkout currently.. waiting for clkao to come back to help me sort it
rafl Hello kane-xs_ 13:05
Why not simply make a new checkout? :-)
kane-xs_ because i have a /lot/ of changes in that checkout.. some commited and not pushed 13:06
rafl kane-xs_: Sorry that I can't hack on JIB currently. I'm quite busy with setting up an MMTA.
Oh, OK.
kane-xs_ and i dont want allt hat history to go away in one big diff
rafl: that's ok.. we're on no timeline here ;)
Alias_ Can I ask why "jib"?
kane-xs_ no
rafl kane-xs_: Just wanted to inform you. 13:07
Alias_: jib is brilliant.
Alias_ rafl: Not the funtionality, the actual three letters
I can't find a decryption of it
kane-xs_ hands alias GNU
Alias_ blinks
rafl :-( 13:08
kane-xs_ Gnu's not unix
Alias_ JIB isn't...
rafl Err, :-)
Alias_ Broken?
kane-xs_ <rafl> Alias_: jib is brilliant.
Alias_ ooohh
Alias_ smacks head
kane-xs_ ucfirst()
Alias_ *handsfaceheaddesk*
audreyt fglock: no... the minilang is just for the basic runtime. The next layer of PIL.MM.* will probably evolve into PIL2 though 13:09
kane-xs_ helps
audreyt fglock: there is currently no difference with PIL1 and PIL2 in src/Pugs/*
fglock: PIL.* is my way of approximating the PIL2 design from the object space
fglock: so what you are working with now is essentially still PIL1
you can run a diff to see it 13:10
sorry if I did not make it clear... I will try to document it tomorrow after I wake up
fglock audreyt: I'm experimenting with a 'PIL API'
audreyt I've seen the mini parser work
fglock in order to ease generating code using p6 itself
audreyt oh?
yeah, it's cool
Alias_ Don't forget the SAX driver... 13:11
audreyt I'll give it a more thorough look tomorrow and try to coordinate
Alias_ YOUR LANGUAGE WILL BE XMLIFIED!
Assembly Markup Language
ASSML
audreyt but I shall not procrastinate on sleeping anymore :) & 13:12
fglock Alias_: I've only read about SAX, but I didn't try to use it 13:13
Alias_ Ever used POE?
Or Twisted in Python
Or Haskell :)
fglock no
Alias_ Similar... great idea, but you have to turn you brain sideways 13:14
On the other hand, it makes doing quite sophisticated XML stuff pretty easy
fglock btw, I was thinking about emitting Python code - but I'll have to learn a little of Python first 13:17
geoffb *yawn* 13:18
Morning, all
Haven't been keeping up for like a month ... what's new in pugstown? 13:19
Wow, don't everyone talk at once. :-) 13:23
fglock geoffb: sorry, I was trying to find out how to explain these things 13:24
geoffb ?
fglock the current work is on making pugs capable to emit enough info to the runtime to build classes, roles, etc 13:25
geoffb fglock, OK, go on ... sounds like PIL2 actually in progress? 13:26
fglock yes, but it is being rethinked into a new mini-language
following stavan's work with the metamodel 13:27
stevan's
geoffb interesting
Last I heard, stevan had been playing around with doing the MM in S-expressions. Is that what happened?
fglock yes, it is actually still happening 13:28
audreyt and stevan are implementing and documenting it 13:29
geoffb audreyt is a new nick to me ... new alias for autrijus? Or different person?
Alias_ ...
same person, different gender 13:30
Autrijus is now Audrey
geoffb I was wondering how that would turn out. Happier now, I hope?
Alias_ It's been a week... I guess we'll find out later
geoffb Fair enough.
(Good luck, Audrey!) 13:31
Odd thought -- did he change his handle at use.perl.org as well? 13:32
fglock I'm playing with the idea of implementing parts of pugs in p6
Alias_ fglock: Isn't that what Alison et al is doing?
geoffb damn English pronouns
Alias_ Like, the actual creation of Perl 6...
fglock Alias_: not exactly - I'm just playing with moving the implementation of some modules to p6, and then make p6/haskell call each other to finish the job 13:37
geoffb fglock, cool
fglock audreyt: it would be cool if the mini-language would be valid perl 6, like "featherweight perl" 14:07
then we could just execute it using an older pugs 14:08
Alias_ ugh... writing PITA is a PITA :) 14:37
XML is great and all, but gets tiresome to code
Alias_ takes a break and moves onto other works 14:38
stevan_ fglock: I think the new mini-lang is actually close to a featherweight perl6 14:41
at least from what I can grok out of PIL.* sources
audreyt: I added "false" but never managed to get "make pili" to work (problems with ghcconfig.h) so I didnt commit 14:42
fglock stevan: cool - emitting code from a featherweight p6 using pugs would be fun 14:52
of course Haskell can do that easily, but pushing the limits of pugs is nice 14:54
15:49 khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth
tewk_ stevan_: I had the same problem and had to add include paths to the Makefile for ghcconfig.h and EXTERN.h 16:10
16:15 ntgrl is now known as integral
svnbot6 r8189 | fglock++ | * misc/Parser-Mini/pil2_json_emit_io.p6 - a simple emitter for the "IO" language; 16:18
r8189 | fglock++ | only 'say 1+1' works
16:41 integral is now known as ntgrl
Andy pugs: www.livejournal.com/users/substitut...65155.html 18:00
gaal too true! 18:01
can a pad have a scope!? data Exp .... | Pad !Scope !Pad !Exp 18:03
stevan_ gaal: a Pad is scope..... isnt it? 18:04
gaal Pad is the binding structure
ah, I think I get it:
there are pads for Mys, pads for States, etc.
Pad is just a map 18:05
stevan_ with a pointer to the previous (OUTER::) pad 18:06
I always saw it as a linked list, where the Map was node value
gaal I hope I got this right. Anyway this means each scope actually has several Pad strcutres associated with it
stevan_ eak
why?
gaal the SMy (S for Scope) pad, the SState pad, etc. 18:07
stevan_ Andy: nice Pugs :) .. my friends have a similar pair
stevan_ is not familiar enough with the workings of "state" to really comment
gaal data Scope = SState | SLet | STemp | SMy etc.
18:07 stevan_ is now known as stevan
gaal hello stevan! 18:07
stevan hello gaal 18:08
gaal I was just telling stevan_ about pads
stevan is trying to convience his wife to let him to the Hackathon::IL
gaal whoooah!
stevan gaal: dont talk to that asshole stevan_,.. he is nothing but trouble
gaal Hey stevan's wife! We'll treat him well, promise! 18:09
stevan :)
gaal eeeeek! I just noticed Scope types derive Ord, and that fact is actualy used. How funky! 18:11
18:17 Amnesiac_ is now known as Amnesiac
gaal whee, mpj has a picture of Crater Lake in his homepage 18:24
svnbot6 r8190 | fglock++ | * misc/Parser-Mini/pil2_json_emit_php.p6 19:12
stevan fglock: emit PHP!!! 19:23
hullo Ovid
Ovid Hi Stevan. 19:24
svnbot6 r8191 | fglock++ | * Parser-Mini/pil2_json_emit_php.p6 - more ops 19:32
fglock stevan: :) 19:33
stevan is experimenting with Seaside (smalltalk++) 19:34
fglock: so Forth, P6, P5, PHP... now what :)
fglock I'm lacking ideas - maybe 6502 19:35
I loved Apple ][ assembler
stevan :D 19:36
did you already do PIR?
fglock yes
stevan maybe Ruby
fglock ah, ok - and Python
obra fglock: scheme? 19:37
stevan FORTRAN!
obra fglock: VB?
stevan PIL->COBOL would be useful :P
fglock hey, I'll need some help
:) 19:38
stevan you should build a Lego Robot which writes the PIL to punch cards :)
fglock looks on google for what language Lego Robots use 19:39
stevan you can write them in FORTH 19:40
pbforth
there is also a C dialect for them
and Ada
p6->Ada then we can control missles with P6 :)
tewk_ make pili gives this error /tmp/ghc16716.hc:9:22: fpstring.h: No such file or directory 19:47
I found fpstring.h in src/cbits, and added -isrc/cbits to the ghc cmdline, but couldn't get it to work. Ideas? 19:48
fglock goes read about Ada 19:52
archive.adaic.com/pol-hist/history/holwg-93/ 19:55
stevan fglock: they have links to the other Ada design docs on Lambda the Ultimate too : lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/view/3 20:04
fglock stevan: how about PEARL - www.irt.uni-hannover.de/pearl/pearlein-gb.html :) 20:10
thanks for the link 20:13
eric256 hates to admint that sudoku is addictive ;) 21:01
r0nny yo 21:49
audreyt: ping ? howz the undefined instance prob ? 21:50
stevan r0nny: I think audreyt is concentrating on the object-space which will eventually give us the metamodel which will solve most (if not all) of your OO issues 21:56
the current object model in Pugs is incomplete and will be deprecated once the metamodel is in place 21:57
r0nny stevan: atm my problem is, they do it in the normal branch, and this broke my code since some objects are virtually undefined now
stevan r0nny: I understand that, but what I am saying is that with a little patience, you will have all you need :) 21:58
s/have/get/
r0nny hmm 21:59
stevan remember, pugs is -Ofun, which means sometimes things won't work right
r0nny yeah
i wish i knew the revision number i need to make it work again
stevan especially when audreyt is basically re-writing the guts with the object-space work
r0nny: is your code in Pugs? 22:00
the code which is not working currently
r0nny no
atm its external
its a depency solving system
stevan ok, I was thinking maybe you could track down the revision that way
r0nny maybe date-based 22:01
stevan openfoundry has a nice interface to SVN, you can browse backwards through the commit logs
that might help in your search
r0nny but first i need to check, if there is a way to enter the wanted revision sonewhere in my pkg manager wich installs pugs from svn for me 22:02
stevan I have no idea,.. I dont use a pkg manager , I pull direct from svn :) 22:03
22:18 PerlJam is now known as ParodyBit, ParodyBit is now known as PerlJam
trym where can I read about the status of perl6 ? 23:21
ive browsed through the urls in the topic, not finding exactly what Im looking for
mlh pugscode.org perhaps 23:22
integral dev.perl.org/perl6/ perhaps?
trym pugs is a implementation of the perl6 implementation?
is it official ?
mlh yes
audreyt greetings 23:23
trym: yes, we are fixing the state of the documentation
mlh audreyt: thanks for the talk last night -- it was great
integral not official, surely?
audreyt want a committer bit to our subversion repository so you can help? :)
mlh trym: also see planetsix.perl-foundation.org/
trym just roughly.. when do you think perl6 will be ready to be used in production ?
mlh heh, i'm not sure you want me. then again i might be able to do docs 23:24
audreyt integral: pugs is officially a perl6 implementation... not sure if s/a/the/, but "a" certainly
mlh: that is currently one of the most dire focus :)
integral ah! I didn't quite realise that either
obra It is "a", not "the"
There is currently no "compliance test" for perl6 implementations. 23:25
audreyt unless it is the pugs tests ;)
obra It's not ;P
Also, there is no 100% specification for Perl 6.0.0 yet
audreyt trym: we are targetting productively use of pugs as a dynamic language targetting both parrot and perl5 on next february-march. 23:26
obra but now, I must run
trym won't several perl6 implementations become confusing?
obra trym: no more so than C, Java or Python
audreyt trym: not anymore than several python, C++ or Java implementations
trym point taken
obra *5* audreyt
audreyt *5*
obra It'll actually help make sure we've got an ironclad spec
trym just very used to relating to only one... _the perl_ 23:27
mlh audreyt: ok, [email@hidden.address] key if you want it is on major keyservers :-) 23:28
Andy audreyt: Do you have a URL somewhere that explains the name change? I want to let people know, but also anticipate the immediate followup question.
audreyt mlh: welcome aboard! 23:29
q[Skud] morning.
audreyt Andy: I'll post it as a journal entry some time today or tomorrow.
Andy audreyt: OK, thanks.
mlh audreyt: thakns 23:30
audreyt trym: interested in trying out pugs and maybe helping out tests/documentations/examples/code? I'd send you a committer bit if you would let me know your email address :)
trym sent by notice 23:31
my spam filter has its hands full as it is ;)
audreyt welcome aboard :)
trym hehe thanks :) 23:32
audreyt mlh, trym: be sure to add yourself to the AUTHORS file; that will ensure that the svn commit works
trym do you guys need hosting of some sort?
Im in the process of setting up a hosting center
mlh k 23:33
trym i already have a few boxes here and there.. but Ill have much more resources to myself as the center comes up
audreyt trym: oh cool - interested in running a smoke test server? 23:34
see util/smoke_loop.sh on the pugs subversion tree for how
trym probably :) that should be a box that is not in production I guess ? ;) 23:35
audreyt or if you can run user mode linux or some sort of jail/chroot/acl
gaal hi there :)
audreyt gaal: yo
gaal I was looking earlier tonight at how pads were created 23:36
didn't understand it very well yet; but I did see the responsibility was partly in Eval 23:37
audreyt gaal: *nod* 23:38
gaal how do these "pad transformations" work?
eg in enterWhile 23:39
audreyt very carefully
gaal enterLex [symLast, symNext] action
who are symLast and symNext anyway?
audreyt look at how enterLex is defined
it takes a list of (Pad -> Pad) 23:40
and apply them in turn to envLexical
gaal yes, so they are such funcitons
trym so smoke_loop.sh is sort of an error detection system.. for it to be useful, where should the results be reported?
gaal elsewhere I see genSymPrim "&next", but I don't see how that connects
trym: there's a util/smokeserv that posts results 23:41
audreyt trym: it should be uploaded... actually we should throw that into the loop
gaal well, a client under that dir that posts them
trym well you have the aftercmd thingie
gaal trym: that's deprecated, actually
trym maybe I wasnt looking at the newest revision 23:42
gaal you were, likely... the code you're looking at hasn't been hacked on in a while (I think)
err, did I say "elsewhere"? the line above, doh. 23:43
trym oh well time for bed I guess.. :)
sleep tight
gaal night 23:44
audreyt trym: I fixed it :) 23:45
svnbot6 r8192 | autrijus++ | * turn AFTER_CMD into uploading the smoke report to server
r8192 | autrijus++ | in the default util/smoke_loop.sh run. reported by: trym
gaal hmm, is fix a callCC thing?
audreyt trym: good night
gaal: fix is just the Y combinator
gaal fix :: (a -> a) -> a
I need to remelt my brain to remember what that is 23:46
audreyt fact = fix (\f x -> case x of { 0 -> 1; _ -> x * f (x-1) }) 23:47
gaal oh, cool!
unlambda, in a way?
audreyt it's inventing a recursive name out of thin air
yeah
gaal ok so taking a simple one: 23:48
enterGiven topic action = do { sym <- genSym "$_" topic ; enterLex [sym] action } 23:49
genSym gives a transformer that adds a symbol to a pad, yes?
audreyt yes.
gaal ooh, there's even a comment saying just that :)
audreyt :D 23:50
gaal so pads are populated during reduction, hence, in Eval 23:51
reduceSyn "given" eventually calls enterGiven
how does a pad know its outer pad? 'asks'? 23:52
audreyt yup.
yes. in any given time you can get the current lexical pad:
pad <- asks envLexical
Juerd_ Yet another day gone by without having done anything productive. Blah
Good night.
audreyt or the outer pad:
outer <- asks envOuter
which may be Nothing
gaal on top level
Juerd_ Oh, and for the record: I absolutely profoundly hate MS Windows.
audreyt Juerd_: good night, sleep well :)
Juerd_ audreyt: Thanks 23:53
gaal findVarRef has a good demo, ok
Juerd_: nighty night :)
stevan audreyt: hey!
Juerd_ gaal: ty
afk
gaal so, what's needed for lexical import? some note in the ast that, when reduced, gens a symbol; 23:54
stevan has to run, but will be back in 1 hour
audreyt stevan: cool
gaal also, errors if the symbol already exists, yes?
audreyt gaal: yes and yes.
gaal: I'd imagine that the note is just a normal Pad node 23:56
gaal on the parser end, ignoring the concrete syntax for a moment, the work is similar to ruleVarDeclaration
?
audreyt I mean, a Sym node 23:57
ys.
q[Skud] gah. moving desks *again*. 23:58
gaal hmmm, so there aren't big obstacles to doing this, are there? :)

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