svn switch --relocate svn.openfoundry.org/pugs svn.pugscode.org/pugs/ | run.pugscode.org | spec.pugscode.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com | dev.pugscode.org/
Set by putter on 11 February 2007.
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Coke_ (coke & pepsi) wot now? 00:34
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specbot6 r13588 | larry++ | Clarification of coercion declarations and semantics. 01:01
rhr Hi, I have a question about {} vs do{} in pugs/perl6
case 1: sub{ ... {warn "blah"; reutrn False; } unless something; ... }
case 2: sub{ ... something or do { warn "blah"; reutrn False; }; ... }
do blocks won't take modifiers so case1 can't take do
but a bare closure doesn't get run in case2 ({...}.() works also)
I find this confusing. Also, S06 doesn't mention do in its discussion of return afaics 01:02
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svnbot6 r15277 | lwall++ | postcircumfix methods distinguished 01:08
TimToady attempting to use a statment modifier on something that heavy almost certainly means you shouldn't be using a statement modifier there. 01:10
and why would do need to be mentioned in the discussion of return? 01:11
return is defined to go to the enclosing sub, skipping any non-sub blocks 01:12
a do block is not a sub declaration
is that what is bothering you? 01:13
rhr yeah ok :) 01:14
S06 says "explicit keyword", and do kind of fits that description
TimToady yes, I see how that can be misinterpreted. I'll glare at it... 01:15
rhr I still don't really understand why the closure is run with unless but not with or 01:16
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specbot6 r13589 | larry++ | Clarification on what may be returned from, requested by rhr++ 01:31
TimToady rhr: it could perhaps be construed as a bug. I can argue that both ways.
rhr what's the argument for not construing it as a bug, out of curiosity? 01:36
TimToady a bare block where a statement expected automatically calls itself
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TimToady the question is whether a bare block with something after it really qualifies as a bare block. 01:36
Limbic_Region wonders how many nudist perl hackers there are 01:37
rhr hmm, but isn't the one that's not being run the one without anything after it? 01:38
or do I misunderstand?
TimToady it depends on whether your ... is setting up the expectation of a statement. 01:39
rhr it should have been ...;
in perl5 one-liners I often sneak a return in using a comma 01:45
I'm just trying to update this sordid idiom :)
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nanonyme hey, can you define complex structures in perl6 and then call them again like you can in C? 01:57
TimToady I have no idea what you mean
nanonyme maybe i'm too drunk to think clearly, i'll ask again when i sober up 01:58
TimToady k 01:59
Limbic_Region TimToady - I believe nanonyme is referring to structs
IOW, defining your own datatype 02:00
TimToady in that case, certainly
nanonyme exactly, that was what a friend asked me to ask earlier, i'm just too drunk to word myself properly
thanks :)
rhr TimToady: I guess I was expecting perl to expect a statement for both of those blocks 02:01
TimToady the question is how picky we are on when to supply an implicit .() after the block. 02:02
for instance, we certainly should not supply a .() if there's already one there. 02:03
?eval { say "hi $_" }.("there") 02:04
02:04 evalbot_r15265 is now known as evalbot_r15277
evalbot_r15277 OUTPUT[hi thereā¤] Bool::True 02:04
TimToady ?eval { say "hi" } 02:05
evalbot_r15277 OUTPUT[hiā¤] Bool::True
rhr in what way is the context different in {} if ... vs ... or {}?
I guess that's my main question
TimToady or does not expect a statement after it
so or {} will never supply an implicit .() for you. 02:06
the implicit .() is only for a block used as a statement.
and statement modifiers are kind of on the boundary.
rhr oh, it just wnats to return the closure right?
TimToady yes 02:07
arguably a statement modifier is both a statement as a whole and contains a statement on its left.
Limbic_Region TimToady - you are gainfully employed outside of working on Perl 6 right? And you use pugs/perl 6 in that job correct?
rhr I guess I expected differently because I don't usually use it to return a value
TimToady I work for a company called Netlogic Microsystems 02:08
whether that's "gainful" is of course subject to interpretation
Limbic_Region ok
Limbic_Region is just having a friendly disagreement with merlyn on the matter
TimToady I've been known to use pugs here
jdv79 :)
Limbic_Region he said no one is using perl 6 for real
and so I jokingly said he was calling you no one 02:09
TimToady it was for real at the time, though I ended up translating it back to Perl 5 so it'd run faster.
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TimToady but it's certainly a good language for at least thinking in 02:10
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allbery_b has the minor problem that he needs to support solaris boxen as well, and, well, ghc doesn't like solaris any more 02:10
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TimToady I guess it depends on what the definition of "is" is... 02:10
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TimToady speaking of cigars... 02:11
Limbic_Region has never enjoyed cigars or wine 02:12
TimToady I've never tried a cigar. Tried a cigaret once when I was in junior high... 02:13
allbery_b neither
TimToady I don't mind a good wine, but I'm not allowed to imbibe at the moment because I'm taking some pills that are already hard on my liver, and we don't need two people here with bad livers... :( 02:14
Limbic_Region any news on her hepatitis? 02:15
you seem to be in the know
allbery_b likes good single-malts
TimToady only what I know from her popping in here occasionally. 02:16
Limbic_Region oh
Limbic_Region searches the logs then
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TimToady my guess is she's gonna still be very much out of it for at least a week and subpar for considerably thereafter. 02:17
Limbic_Region oh, but "small chance I can leave the hospital tomorrow" is in itself good news 02:18
rhr wishes he could donate an extra liver to the cause 02:19
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TimToady well, I understand people can donate half livers these days. 02:20
and it may yet come to that.
Limbic_Region yeah, liver is one of the few organs that regrows
TimToady I would certainly donate half my liver to audreyt in a flash, but that would certainly be suboptimal from an age standpoint, not to mention I'm probably disqualified anyway for various reasons such as having had a transplant and various transfusions myself... 02:22
Limbic_Region is such a dolt as he hasn't been keeping her in his prayers 02:23
TimToady just pray once with a hyperoperator on it. :)
Limbic_Region well, I don't know how healthy my liver is but yeah 02:24
heh
presumably god transcends time so it shouldn't matter when the prayer happens - casuality is just something for us humans to maintain some semblance of sanity
TimToady also, not sure what the culture of transplants is in Taiwan. I know they're rather rare in Japan, though, because it's very hard to find donors. 02:25
rhr fascinating. Well, I'm young and have a perfectly good liver. Can they ship 'em halfway around the world on ice? :)
allbery_b mi she-beirach avoteinu... 02:26
TimToady well, from where you are, that's over the north pole, so that's pretty icy... 02:27
allbery_b for the moment, at least
TimToady maybe there will be a lot of spare polar bear livers available soon. :(
well, must decommute 02:31
bbl & 02:32
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westymatt Hey I need to test for the existence of a command, but not execute it any advice? 02:52
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allbery_b ?eval (any(%*ENV<PATH>.split(':')) ~ "/ping") ~~ :x 03:08
evalbot_r15277 Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
allbery_b hm, safemode
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audreyt short update: I'll be hospitalized for another 48 hours. my liver is gradually recovering, but still requires a lot of rest. TimToady is right; I'll still be easily tired for another month or so; but fortunately I've booked all $job away, so it's all pugstime for the month to come :) 03:44
audreyt faints some more &
allbery_b yay! 03:55
audreyt++ 03:56
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TimToady fg 04:08
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rhr is pipe expected to work like open e.g. my $xclip = pipe "xclip", :w; ? 04:16
[particle] westymatt: readdir over $PATH? 04:21
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allbery_b my ?eval tried to work here but my pugs is a bit old for :x 04:24
TimToady rhr: might be more like Pipe.open(:w, "xclip") 04:38
or Pipe.to("xclip") and Pipe.from("xclip") maybe 04:39
dduncan TimToady, did you see my question yesterday about the StrPos etc types? 04:40
TimToady yeah, just low on tuits 04:41
dduncan does a value of said type have meaning in isolation, and can be used with any Str, or does it only have meaning when used with a specific Str value?
TimToady only for a specific Str.
dduncan so then, its sort of like a reference type, I gather?
allbery_b IIRC different strings may have different interpretations (utf8, ascii, ...) and a StrPos needs to reflect that 04:42
TimToady though a StrLen could know n bytes, m codepoints, o graphemes, etc.
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TimToady StrPos doesn't care as long as it points between things at the abstraction level you're concerned about 04:42
passing a byte StrPos into a routine thinking in graphemes may have to adjust the pointer or be unhappy 04:43
I believe I speculated about all this in the original apocalypses
dduncan so, does it conceptually make sense to compare two unequal Str as to whether they are of the same length or not, without specifying "in codepoints" or "in graphemes", because StrPos or StrLen is supposed to be abstracted above which is used? 04:44
based on what I've heard, I would say no
TimToady considering there's no .length method...
how would you do it without specifying 04:45
$a.chars == $b.chars specifies chars in the current unicode level
nothingmuch Coke_ || [particle]: short update: the show was awesome. sleep now =) 04:46
TimToady $a.bytes == $b.bytes requires the byte count to be the same, and fails if either string doesn't care to support byte ops
nothingmuch (www.last.fm/event/143933)
lambdabot Title: Sex Mob at Tonic (New York) on 16 Feb 2007 &ndash; Last.fm
dduncan as I mentioned yesterday, if you have a value of a unit-inspecific such as a "velocity" or a "temperature", you can do things with multiple values of said such as compare if one is faster or hotter than another, without caring whether we're using Kelvins or Farenheight units 04:47
but I get the impression that StrPos etc can't be treated like those
TimToady a StrPos is a position in a particular string, so no
dduncan right, glad that's all cleared up for me 04:48
TimToady a StrLen is not related to a particular string if you force it to tell you a number
dduncan sure
TimToady but it might be lazy about that and keep two StrPos till it knows
in general we should be getting away from string lengths in the API as much as possible 04:49
dduncan sure ... and the current definition of StrPos|StrLen smacks of memory address offsets and such, which Perl generally abstracts us away from having to think about 04:50
TimToady there should be a substr variant that takes two StrPos, for instance.
or the lazy StrLen can see if its lazy beginning happens to be the same as the substr pos. 04:51
then it doesn't have to count anything.
allbery_b dduncan: there's really n good way t reconcile graphemes, codepoints, byte4s, etc.
TimToady you reconcile them by choosing a good abstraction level for the default and then providing clean ways to escape the default if you need to. 04:52
and to the extent that the data types themselves allow you to escape 04:53
dduncan presumably, then, if we use a rule to match something, the result of executing the rule could return something analagous to StrPos, in case we want to go back and say, get the string where that matched ... or maybe this is just something that rule executions to internally, and users of rules don't have to
TimToady StrPos is precisely what it returns 04:54
if you ask for the .beg or .end of any matched thing
.pos is a StrPos
dduncan so, I get the impression that for high level work, rules are the proper way to extract or work with substrings, and outside of rules, we generally treat strings as being atomic, that we just copy or compare for equality or before/after etc 04:55
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TimToady the age of fixed-width characters is largely past us, I think. 04:55
and of fixed-width strings. 04:56
you'll note that formats are now largely obsolete for the same reason
dduncan now, maybe this is explained, but with terms like codepoints and graphemes going about, is there such a thing as a "character" with is clearly defined?
or should we just say codepoints or graphemes instead of characters? 04:57
or is "character" a convenient fuzzyness over the other terms
when we want to fuzzy say what a string is composed of without going into detail 04:58
TimToady they're defined at the beginning of Functions.pod, of all places.
Char is defined as the maximum abstraction level supported in the current lexical scope.
so with "use bytes" a Char is a byte 04:59
with "use codepoints" it's a code point
dduncan okay
TimToady by default it's a grapheme
if you say "use Arabic" it's an Arabic letter, whatever that is...
dduncan I see the document now 05:00
TimToady I believe audreyt was attempting to push this view into the Haskell community at one point, with mixed success. 05:01
ah well, Perl has to be better at something than Haskell. :)
allbery_b haskell has to figure out its unicode support first :) 05:02
and then there's problems with languages like arabic and hebrew because of haskell's case significance
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allbery_b (e.g. how do you write an uppercase letter to name a type in Arabic?) 05:03
TimToady which is why these distinctions should only ever be conventions, not mandates
dduncan As I work on designing my DBMS, I'm liking to be both modern while being able to map to older concepts ... I am trying to make my Text type as alike to Perl 6's Str type as possible, but part of what I have to support is users declaring a Text subtype that is constrained to being within a certain length, to help with data validation ... since the DBMS spec already says that Text has the latest Unicode repertoire as its character set ... 05:05
I'm trying to make it as Perl 6 like as reasonable, given that a lot of Perl 6 features won't be in it as it is more domain specific. 05:06
Mainly I'm focusing on features that can represent any data type, any constraint on a data type, and any common operation with such a data type ... assignment and equality comparison if nothing else.
TimToady and what do they mean when they say "length"?
dduncan I would say in practice that it is context specific 05:07
eg, a SIN is of a certain format or length
or maybe bad example ...
I'm trying to think of things that are practically a certain length, and are not simply a number 05:08
Since what I'm making is intended to be abstract, I will definitely not make it possible to generically ask for the length of a character string in bytes ... unless said function also specifies "when expressed as which encoding" 05:10
TimToady well, maybe we can help drag database technology into the age of no arbitrary limitations.
dduncan there is no "current encoding"
I'm trying to do that
help always appreciated
avar TimToady: Regarding lexical scopes and such values, I've been implementing a plug-in for the regex engine in p5. When you have lexical pragmas they're defined as C<use bytes; #{ byte semantics } [ byte-using code ]; use characters; #{ character semantics } [ characters-using code]). I.e. you have to split your code/delclarations into sections but then each variable gets a "tag" saying it's in byte-mode, char-mode or in my case bound to the default regex engine o 05:11
Does p6 offer a more comportable syntax to tell a value not the block/section it's delcared in that a pragma applies to it
*comfortable
dduncan in regards to constraints on a database, they exist because users want them to model a particular reality that they define, and refuse to accept input that doesn't fit ... the constraints are generally not there just to help the DBMS implement what users ask for ... 05:12
avar I guess that's done with the type system...
allbery_b sounds like a job for has()
er, no parens
avar my ByteStr $foo; my CharStr $bar; #{ pseoudcode }
TimToady every string has a minimum and maximum abstraction level it will deal with, so you can easily declare a codepoint string within a grapheme section, for instance. 05:13
yes
avar TimToady: Ah, that answers it;)
dduncan until I reread what you said about users usually thinking about text in terms of graphemes, I was intending to have one level of representation, which is simply codepoints 05:15
but I may be thinking differently now, or support both
TimToady bearing in mind also that U+10ffff is a single codepoint represented with two surrogates. 05:16
it's cheating to say that a Plane 1 character is two codepoints.
?eval "\x[10ffff]".chars 05:17
evalbot_r15277 1
TimToady ?eval "\x[10ffff]".codepoints 05:18
evalbot_r15277 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&codepoints"
TimToady ?eval "\x[10ffff]".codes
evalbot_r15277 1
TimToady :)
?eval "\x[10ffff]".bytes
evalbot_r15277 4
dduncan ?eval "a".bytes
evalbot_r15277 1
dduncan so, UTF-8 ? 05:19
TimToady ?eval "\x[256]".bytes
evalbot_r15277 2
TimToady yes
apparently
allbery_b more complex than that, though. ōæ½xD7ōæ½x91ōæ½xD6ōæ½xBCōæ½xD6ōæ½xBBōæ½xD6ōæ½x93 :) 05:20
dduncan in any event, the first releases of my DBMS will be pure Perl and won't have to map to anything else, so I can largely ignore internals issues, and map my operators to the Perl ones directly
then come back to some of these worries later
allbery_b (bet w/dagesh, qubutz, and shalshelet) 05:21
TimToady ?eval "בבּōæ½xD7ōæ½x91ōæ½xD6ōæ½xBCōæ½xD6ōæ½xBBōæ½xD6ōæ½x93".chars
evalbot_r15277 7
TimToady ?eval "בבּōæ½xD7ōæ½x91ōæ½xD6ōæ½xBCōæ½xD6ōæ½xBBōæ½xD6ōæ½x93".codes
evalbot_r15277 7
allbery_b one grapheme (although most renderers don't handle trope markings)
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allbery_b ?eval "בבּōæ½xD7ōæ½x91ōæ½xD6ōæ½xBCōæ½xD6ōæ½xBBōæ½xD6ōæ½x93".graphemes 05:22
lumi_ What's a shalshelet, then?
evalbot_r15277 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&graphemes"
allbery_b hm
dduncan graphs
lumi_ "graphs" I think
allbery_b ?eval "בבּōæ½xD7ōæ½x91ōæ½xD6ōæ½xBCōæ½xD6ōæ½xBBōæ½xD6ōæ½x93".graphs 05:23
evalbot_r15277 7
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allbery_b um, 3. 05:23
TimToady I think pugs is at codepoint level currently
allbery_b trope markings like shalshelet ("chains") indicate how to chant a passage
it's actually more of a syllabic than a character mark, but also indicates if and how a word associates with the next word 05:24
...but some of them do attach to characters, not words or syllables
TimToady does Unicode consider them combining characters? 05:25
tene ?eval "unicode".syllables
evalbot_r15277 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&syllables"
allbery_b combining accents
TimToady certainly that sort of thing can change when you throw in a "use Hebrew"
which presumably changes the abstraction level from language-independent graphemes to hebrew characters 05:26
allbery_b on the one hand, you're not going to have to deal with trope too often; on the other hand, I already have perl5 scripts which handle trope :)
TimToady I only parse ę—„ęœ¬čŖž 05:27
rhr so regex is a keyword now... how do you pronounce it? both hard and soft g sound wrong to me 05:30
TimToady I use the j sound
consider it encouragement to write a token or a rule instead. :)
allbery_b soft j sounds too close to "rejects" :)
rhr yeah, I thought of "rejects" too. But the alternative is a reggae expression :) 05:31
TimToady the whole point of regex is to reject most things. :) 05:32
allbery_b "pattern" :)
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dduncan FYI, I just updated my DBMS documentation's terminology section to specify that the term "character" specifically means "grapheme" in general, and that I would generally work in those terms, though codepoints are possibly an alternative if doing that seems necessary. 05:43
That said, is it possible for multiple sequences of codepoints to equal the same grapheme in Unicode?
If so, that could give me some trouble.
If not, then great! 05:44
TimToady depends on which canonicalization you've used
dduncan I'm just talking about within the same Unicode version ... 05:46
TimToady in general as long as all your data uses the same canonicalization, you don't have to worry
dduncan or are there multiple canonicalizations within the same version?
TimToady yes
dduncan in that case, I should make a point of learning about canonicalizations, then declaring 1 to be the one used everywhere ... 05:47
TimToady see unicode.org/reports/tr15/
lambdabot Title: UAX #15: Unicode Normalization Forms
dduncan assuming you can still represent everything when using 1 canonicalization
TimToady people argue about whether NFC or NFD is better. the answer is that they're better for different things 05:50
NFC is more compact, and NFD is more future proof.
dduncan certainly, everything will use the same single encoding, or as far as users are concerned it is as if that were true ... in fact, for users, there is no such thing as an encoding, except when a Text value is explicitly mapped to/from a Blob value 05:51
TimToady but NFD compresses down about as well as NFC does, since the information content is the same. 05:55
NFC is likelier to give you something close to one codepoint per grapheme for most national character sets. 05:56
NFD will split out accents and such to combining characters, so you're very much in the realm of a variable width encoding in terms of codepoints per grapheme 05:57
the default Perl approach is to simply claim that the abstraction will be maintained, even if you have to do normalization on the fly internally. 05:59
given that Perl may be pulling in both NFC and NFD data, there's something to be said for the lazy approach. 06:00
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TimToady it does mean that $a eq $b may be doing more than just memcmp() though 06:01
but yes, to the user there is no encoding, at least until they have to send it to an API that needs to know. 06:02
dduncan indeed 06:11
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Aankhen`` I asked this last night, but I guess I had to head for bed before the answer came. :-( Are there any provisions to facilitate event-driven programming in Perl 6? 06:22
TimToady probably. we're looking at doing something like in www.seas.upenn.edu/~lipeng/homepage/unify.html 06:31
lambdabot Title: Unifying events and threads
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Aankhen`` TimToady: Ah, I think that was linked to in the discussion I saw. Thanks. 06:38
It had me salivating, despite my limited understanding of Haskell. 06:39
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dec greetings 10:18
audreyt dec: greetings 10:19
dec I kept reading "visit #perl6" in the topic of #perl and decided to take up the offer, finally. 10:21
Aankhen`` There goes the neighbourhood. :-(
dmq morning 10:28
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svnbot6 r15278 | lwall++ | Rework categories to just be a category of their own. 16:20
r15278 | lwall++ | Swap #= and #+ just 'cuz I like 'em better that way. #+ "adds" a definition.
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smash debian virtual server is up&running 16:43
ups, wrong channnel
sorry 16:44
alas, wrong server even 16:45
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diakopter sorry to be off topic, but #perl wasn't much help - I'm looking for a module to manage application deployments and their database schema upgrades/downgrades/rollbacks/patches. Any tips? 16:58
nothingmuch DBIC has some schema management 16:59
including versioned schemas (though I think that's still in development)
westymatt Does perl6 have a release date?
nothingmuch go to #dbix-cplass on irc.perl.org and find out more
westymatt: chrstimas (year unspecified)
westymatt lol thank you 17:00
allbery_b "when it's ready" :)
westymatt I heard its going to have strongly typed support
does this mean its optional?
nothingmuch yes, fully optional
westymatt I take it no release date yet for parrot? 17:01
revdiablo No no, the correct answer is to start a ferocious debate about what "strong typing" really means
moritz revdiablo: right. Anything less strongly typed then Eiffel is "weakly typed" </rant> ;)) 17:02
revdiablo westymatt: Even if there was a release date, I wouldn't trust it
westymatt yeah your probably right
revdiablo-debate on what strongly typed means? 17:03
moritz when is The Hurd's release date? duke nukem forever? Debian Etch?
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revdiablo westymatt: Yes, "strong typing" does not have a clear definition, but... I was just being silly. I hope I haven't started the debate unitentionally =) 17:04
westymatt no
I always looked at perl 5 as being a bit strongly typed, with having @ % $ as opposed to php where everything is $ 17:05
revdiablo westymatt: Yeah, I agree with that. But a lot of people think "strong typing" means C-style static typing. So it's probably best to avoid the term altogether when in mixed company
westymatt personally the perl approach is much better, because type doesn't have to be a guessing game where running through others code
yeah that makes sense 17:06
revdiablo Perl 6's typing system looks nice, though
nothingmuch part of the reason perl 6 will support type annotation is just to improve readability
westymatt yeah that is a real advantage something you lose entirely with python
is parrot functional yet? 17:07
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Limbic_Region westymatt - #parrot is on irc.perl.org - why don't you join over there 17:10
in addition to hanging out here of course
westymatt well thank you
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svnbot6 r15279 | lwall++ | subst and trans replacement parsing 17:16
TimToady westymatt: would you like a commit bit? 17:21
nothingmuch d'oh, why didn't I think of that ;-) 17:22
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nothingmuch is not used to people actually not having them yet ;-) 17:23
Limbic_Region forgets too 17:25
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specbot6 r13590 | larry++ | inconsistency spotted by Smylers++ 17:26
rindolf Hi all.
moritz hi rindolf
rafl: ping
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rindolf Hi moritz, what's up? 17:39
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moritz rindolf: not much, (debian) build system still fucked up and I don't understand it ;) 17:42
rindolf moritz: Debian Build system of what? 17:45
moritz rindolf: of pugs
rindolf moritz: I see.
moritz: you mean the one that creates a .deb package?
moritz rindolf: exactly
rindolf moritz: ah.
moritz: well, I don't know anything about .deb generation.
Albeit I am familiar with hacking .rpm's. 17:46
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moritz rindolf: the problem is, I don't know that much as well... 17:46
rindolf moritz: I see.
moritz: one can install from source on Debian, right?
moritz rindolf: do you mean source packages? 17:47
rindolf: or plain make && make install?
rindolf moritz: no I mean, using svn co ; perl Makefile.PL ; make ; etc.
moritz rindolf: yes, but that's ugly... 17:48
rindolf: partly it's ugly becaues 'make install' as root still compiles stuff...
rindolf: which leads to a poisoned source tree
I'm currently trying to build .debs that don't include support for parrot... 17:49
since I use testing and libparrot-dev is not in testing due to RC-Bugs :(
rindolf moritz: what RC-bugs? 17:50
And what are RC-bugs?
moritz rindolf: "Release Critical"
rindolf moritz: I see.
moritz rindolf: bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.c...t=unstable <-- especiall a >190 days old "can't build" bug ;) 17:51
lambdabot Title: Debian Bug report logs: package parrot in unstable (versions 0.4.1-1, 0.4.4-1, 0 ..., tinyurl.com/yvg2uo
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svnbot6 r15280 | lwall++ | some notes on linkage 18:40
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Victor_ hello 20:58
www.fourmigration.com/link.php?pid=15&cont=5
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moritz stares at CGI.pm's smoke results... 21:24
the failures in params.t all originate from the fact that CGI.pm does not preserve the order of the params... 21:25
but is that order really important? does it _have_ to be preserved?
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dduncan HTTP GET and POST parameter order is not significant 21:26
since all fields are identified by their name 21:27
moritz ok
so the tests basically produces false-positives?
dduncan that said, there is a fuzzy area where sometimes groups of form elements are all given the same name, and some people consider the order of returned results to be significant 21:28
PerlJam dduncan: foo=a&foo=b What is the value of param('foo')? I think order does matter.
dduncan the value of foo is a junction of a and b 21:29
moritz PerlJam: in that case CGI.pm stores a list associated with 'foo'
dduncan or a set containing a and b
moritz which is, IMHO, the correct way to do it
dduncan as far as I'm concerned, if multiple fields have the same name, they denote a set
where order is significant, the fields should have different names, or any significance can be attributed to sorting the values on the values, but then we don't need to preserve order info anyway 21:30
personally, I think some aspects of the CGI.pm interface are flawed 21:31
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moritz dduncan: which aspects? 21:31
dduncan for example, it discards GET parameters in an HTTP POST request
moritz shouldn't they be accessible via url_param? 21:32
dduncan often in practice it is useful to transmit parameters using both places at the same time, but in order to do so with CGI.pm, I have to redo some of CGI.pm's work
huh?
Khisanth PerlJam: I don't think anyone is going to be foolish enough to rely on the order :)
dduncan looking ...
moritz dduncan: at least in P6 it did... 21:33
dduncan I'm judging CGI.pm on its Perl 5 incarnation
PerlJam Khisanth: clearly you must live on some other planet than the one I'm on. Mine is *full* of foolish people.
dduncan which AFAIK is being emulated as close as possible by the Perl 6 one, because its only reason to exist in Perl 6 is to help people migrate Perl 5 code
of course, if the P6 one can be improved without losing significant backwards compatibility, I'm all for that 21:34
moritz so should we implement url_param as well? 21:35
dduncan in general, I prefer what many other tools do which is to treat GET and POST params as 2 distinct namespaces, which they are, and have separate functions to fetch either, rather than a combined function for both
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dduncan GET and POST are no more ideally combinable than either is for COOKIE or PATH_INFO etc 21:35
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dduncan s/for/with/ 21:36
moritz so offer get_param and post_param, and param() and url_param() for backwards compatiblity?
dduncan in fact, one should be able to have a GET and POST var with the same key, and have them be distinct
sure
PerlJam dduncan: separating GET and POST is good, but so is having a sane combiner
dduncan as long as we fundamentally consider them distinct, and that the combiner is conceptually a convenience wrapper 21:37
PerlJam precisely
moritz PerlJam: the current approach in perl5's CGI is to look if POST-data is available, if yes, use that, if no, use GET
dduncan CGI.pm in Perl 5 fundamentally considers them combined, or more specifically, ignore GET if we're a POST query 21:38
you can see it clearly in he code
personally, I'd like this to be fixed in the Perl 5 version 21:39
ironically, I haven't yet talked to Lincoln Stein about this, so perhaps I should
moritz well, do that before I try to fix P6's CGI 21:40
it would be a bad idea to fix it in an incompatible way ;)
dduncan fyi, the internals can be fixed without changing the api 21:41
moritz maybe, but it's easier to fix if you know what the API's going to be
dduncan that's one big reason why we have encapsulation in the first place
moritz or at least then you can do it all in one rush 21:42
PerlJam I think it would be just fine to fix p6's CGI.pm in a way that's incompatible with p5's CGI.pm 21:46
moritz why should we do that? 21:48
dduncan so would I, actually
as long as its mostly the same, so migration is easy
PerlJam moritz: to fix the original CGI.pm's mistakes
dduncan users can adapt to the fixes the same way they adapt to Perl 6's fixes of Perl 5 21:49
if the design is similar enough, it would still be a thematic p5CGI descendent
moritz allright 21:50
dduncan eg, the API can be 90% the same while being 300% better
also, despite what I said, I'm not sure it is practical to try and improve the Perl 5 version now ... what I suggested is just 1 of many P5CGI.pm issues that I have to work around ... almost to the point that I don't use CGI.pm at all 21:51
or when I do use it, it is wrapped in a different class
so I won't be writing LS today 21:52
PerlJam dduncan: you sound like me (but for different reasons)
moritz why don't you like it?
I mean it's not pretty, but it's not that bad either...
dduncan the API of CGI.pm is too different from the conceptual processes that it wraps, and I want to work more in the underlying terms 21:53
it loses information, as I previously mentioned 21:54
its API is rather kitchen-sink in design 21:55
or should I say, inconsistent and hard to understand in places just looking at it 21:56
but I understand a lot of that is due to legacy issues, so I can't fault it that badly
Juerd If you haven't already, please read my Perl 6 CGI-related posts in perl6-users
dduncan if you mean last year, I participated in that discussion
dmq the funny thing with CGI is that everybody thinks it sucks, yet it hasnt really been replaced by anything so drammatically better that people stop recommending CGI.
dduncan people recommend CGI because it is bundled with Perl 21:57
and there is legacy code examples to look at
dmq but if there was something that the community overwhelmingly thought was better it would end up being bundled as well.
Juerd groups.google.com/group/perl.perl6....ddfadad19b
lambdabot Title: perl.perl6.users | Google Groups, tinyurl.com/2yefua
PerlJam dmq: I don't use CGI.pm because it sucks. I use my own home-grown thingy. The problem is, I suspect, that all of the people who think CGI.pm sucks either do as I do or just suck it up and use CGI.pm.
Juerd groups.google.com/group/perl.perl6....513fb847ff
lambdabot Title: perl.perl6.users | Google Groups, tinyurl.com/ypjn4x
dmq my point exactly PerlJam. :-)
btw, it does suck. :-) 21:58
Juerd Those posts outline my thoughts on the matter
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dmq those are long. ill have to read them when my brain has some power. 21:59
dduncan CGI.pm's main advantage is that it is a low barrier for entry to people that want to do a quick form ... kind of like PHP's advantage actually ... but it falls down when scaling up in complexity ... or it falls down if you want expressivity
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Juerd dduncan: Yes, but there's no reason that such a low barrier could not be made without making the same mistakes. 21:59
dmq or it falls down because when you read the code you want to puke. :-)
dduncan indeed
Juerd I think the interface should be made more perlish, and more modular. 22:00
Modular also involving tearing apart unrelated functionality.
PerlJam Juerd: indeed!
Juerd Perlish involving, among other things, using Perl data types instead of methods, where it can be made to make sense.
dduncan so I'm all for making a better replacement for CGI.pm replacement in Perl 6 that is targeted at the same user base, which is low barrier of entry for doing simple things, but at the same time lacks all the bad stuff 22:01
Juerd This requires, for example, ordered hashes, and Items that are both String and Array. But in Perl 6, all of this *can be done*!
Though we don't know how yet :(
PerlJam dduncan: people can still use perl5's CGI.pm in perl6 if they like the old way
dduncan yes
Juerd This is what I miss in the current Perl 6 implementation (Pugs). 22:02
PerlJam: Exactly
dduncan fyi, my first significant CPAN modules, in 2001, were created partially as a replacement for CGI.pm
but then, I recall, that was a popular thing to do
Juerd would love to write (parts of, or all of) the new CGI.pm replacement, but the infrastructure isn't ready.
PerlJam Juerd: that hasn't stopped Larry from writing perl 6 in perl 6 :-) 22:03
Juerd In fact, I'm afraid that once Perl 6 is implemented enough to do this stuff, it's already too late because someone will have implemented some more limited and less designed toolkit, which will already be the de facto standard.
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Juerd PerlJam: I don't know how to write some of the things. 22:03
PerlJam: Mostly the data types. Those are the basis of my thoughts.
dduncan well, you say infrastructure isn't there, but you could still write the Perl 6 version the proper way even lacking the infrastructure, then let the infrastructure fill out behind it 22:04
Juerd PerlJam: $GET<foo> should be both 'bar' and ['foo', 'bar'] given a QUERY_STRING of foo=foo&foo=bar
dduncan: Infrastructure includes syntax.
dduncan: How do you create an ordered hash? Your own array? 22:05
dduncan why do you need an ordered hash?
Juerd dduncan: Because in CGI parameters, order *does* matter.
dduncan why?
Juerd dduncan: Two form elements can have the same name.
dduncan: They then commonly form an array in the implementation.
dduncan and why does order matter, vs the 2 elements forming a 2 element set? 22:06
so they form a set|junction in implementation
Juerd dduncan: This is just one of the two reasons.
dduncan: I was still typing, and will now start over. Please be patient :)
dduncan ...
more importantly is whether the HTTP standard says that order is significant, I think 22:07
Juerd dduncan: Form elements must be submitted in the order they were in the HTML document, and that makes a lot of tasks very simple without resolving to code duplication. For example, a mail form.
The HTTP standard explicitly says that order is significant.
dduncan well, okay then
Juerd Furthermore, the order of *headers* is *also* significant.
Consider the mail form example.
For the Dutch Perl Workshop, we use a (too) simple CGI script that sends the form as a YAML document, by email. 22:08
It is then handled by others for several purposes.
dduncan but in my experience, a hash of arrays suffices to preserve and recreate an ordered query string
one hash key per unique query key, and multiple values in the array in the order they were in the query
Juerd But because hashes are unordered, these messages suck for human beings.
And coding around this requires a lot more effort.
dduncan doesn't anything which wants the data just extract the expected values by name anyway? 22:09
Juerd dduncan: It's not about sufficiency!
Heck, Perl 5 suffices.
But if we're creating new tools, please let's work towards making *better* tools than we had before.
dduncan well, replace sufficient with ideal in my comment
Juerd I'm also not saying that all hashes should be ordered. I'm just saying that for a Perlish interface to HTTP and CGI stuff, you need them. 22:10
Otherwise you're stuck with OO interfaces. Which are nice, but cumbersome.
I don't *intuitively*, as a Perl programmer, know how to add a new param if the interface for getting one is $foo->param('bar')
Could be anything.
dduncan one generic tool by which to implement an ordered hash would be a ternary relation 22:11
the 3 attributes being index, key, and value 22:12
Juerd I want to be able to do "push $get<bar>, $string". This should work regardless of the number of "bar" elements in the query: 0, 1 or 2.
dduncan if you read values ordered by index, you interpret it as ordered
to add one to the end, you add a tuple with an index value 1 higher than the highest one in there
PerlJam dduncan: who does the bookkeeping there? 22:13
Juerd BTW, please refer to my post " Web development II: Code", which shows some (pseudo) code
dduncan what do you mean?
Juerd Ideally, all you need is:
class OrderedHash {
is Hash;
dduncan I mean, PerlJam, what do you mean?
Juerd make that: does Hash;
does Array;
# override some methods here 22:14
}
dduncan sure
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dduncan that would be useful 22:14
Juerd The actual implementation is less important to me. I'm sure all pieces will fall into place automatically.
Also important is the Str/Array hybrid. 22:15
In fact, I'd say it's more important even.
PerlJam dduncan: you were talking implementation detail and I was thinking in terms of interface. Ignore me.
dduncan fyi, a relation is conceptually like a hash, but that n values are related rather than 2 values, and you can have multiple keys
Juerd And then, there's the combination of both.
Does a "push" on the Array/Hash hybrid, also push onto the array that is the value?
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Juerd i.e. can "push %orderedhash, bar => 'baz';" push onto $orderedhash<bar>? 22:16
(iff $orderedhash<bar> does Array)
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dduncan Juerd, I like your " Web development II: Code" 22:19
Juerd dduncan: Thanks 22:20
moritz to me it sounds like a bit too much magic ;)
Juerd moritz: No magic at all... 22:21
To get this in Perl 5, you'd need lots of magic.
dduncan I still think you can prototype it in Perl 6, just substituting some prerequisites for others until the ones you want are present, then switch back ... but either way, having something out there, will give you a better chance of being the defacto standard instead of someone else
Juerd But in Perl 6, I think we can make it happen and intuitive, without relying on magic, or on awkward "looks like Perl, but doesn't behave as expected" interfaces.
dduncan I'm making a push along those lines myself, but for DBMSs
Juerd dduncan: I've tried, and threw it all away. It requires replication of all methods. 22:22
dduncan: And once you're doing both array and hash, or both array and str, that's a lot of methods.
I have little time.
PerlJam Juerd: sounds just like a Capture to me :-)
nothingmuch moose
dduncan fair enough
Juerd I'm convinced that the entire toolkit can be written in a few days, once Perl 6 is ready. 22:23
But I'm afraid that when Perl 6 is ready, it will already be too late, exactly *because* people will have been too impatient to wait.
Juerd rereads "will have been" and wonders if English even works like that :) 22:24
moritz Juerd: I think it does, but I'm not a native speaker as well
dduncan why don't you create an ext/ in Pugs now that is written the way you think it should be done, even if it doesn't compile yet
Larry is writing the Perl 6 parser in Perl 6 now, though some prereqs don't work yet, afaik 22:25
Juerd dduncan: Because I lack the creativity required to think of syntxa.
dduncan then it would still only take the few days
Juerd I've written this p6u post outlining a part of what I would want
I'm sure that it can be improved a lot. 22:26
And don't want to write everything now, and risk two horrible things:
1. that it will be used without the required improvement, because it's feature complete
1. that everything needs to be rewritten. As said, I have too little time.
s/1/2/
Some experimentation will be needed. For that, we need at least syntax. 22:27
dduncan alternately, maybe you are worried too much that someone else will become a fefacto standard
Juerd I am worried about that, yes.
PerlJam Hmm.
Juerd Well, I am worried that someone will not think it through enough.
dduncan considering your situation, maybe you should just wait until the syntax is in place, then write your thing in a few days
Juerd So far, EVERY SINGLE discussion about getting rid of CGI.pm has resulted in many people coming up with ideas that IMO are suboptimal. 22:28
dduncan: But then important namespace will be taken already.
I don't believe in MyProject::HTTP::Message.
dduncan then write a placeholder empty module in that namespace
PerlJam Juerd: this is perl6 ... CGI-1.2-Juerd is just fine.
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Juerd PerlJam: That's not the only issue. One issue is compatibility and de-facto objects. 22:28
PerlJam: I write things that can take standard LWP objects. 22:29
PerlJam: I can do this because LWP is the standard.
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dmq (afaik "will have been" is ok) 22:29
Juerd PerlJam: But CGI.pm doesn't use the same objects, even though many would make a lot of sense.
dduncan add an ext/ entry now which declares all the namespaces you want to use, but doesn't fill them out, and make its test suite empty
if you change your mind later on the names, then update the ext/ accordingly
Juerd dduncan: Oh, but the test suite could be filled.
dduncan whatever works 22:30
Juerd I have a really clear vision of the API. All I need is (lots and lots) of tuits.
dduncan but simply declaring your namespace takes fairly little tuits
I'm sure you could do it in just an hour
Juerd dduncan: Sounds like domain squatting. I hate that.
PerlJam actually, that's the way to do it. Write the tests assuming things work the way you think they should. Modules will grow around the interface implied (specced?) by the tests
(maybe)
dduncan well, if you end up not using the name later, you can remove the ext/ entry 22:31
see, in the early days of Perl 6 when all Perl 6 code is in Pugs, its easy to be dynamic as to what names are in use or not
moritz dduncan: and charge 80$ for the next one to use it *duck*
dduncan by the time Perl 6 code breaks out of the Pugs distro, things should be in place for your solution to be opeating 22:32
operating
this is not really the same as domain squatting at all
and besides, I think you are well known enough, Juerd, that people would trust you if you reserve a name
Juerd PerlJam: Iff I'll make it to the hackathon, I'll spend some time there.
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dduncan so go and make your claim for the name! 22:33
and fyi, you can consolidate your existing comments and example code to date as a documentation file which you place under that ext/ entry in Pugs 22:34
Juerd $foo<bar> = 42; push $foo<bar>, 15; is($foo<bar>[0], 42); is($foo<bar>[1], 15); is($foo<bar>.join(":"), "42:15"); is($foo<bar>, 42);
dduncan rather than referring people to emails
Juerd dduncan: I know, I know. Tuits.
dduncan if you want, I'll do what I just said on your behalf 22:35
then you don't have to do anything now
Juerd dduncan: The (imo) important parts of the messages were warnocked. I would have liked some more discussion.
moritz from which directory are the tests called when `make smoke` is run?
Juerd dduncan: Please, that would be nice.
dduncan looking ...
Juerd One of the things that I don't know yet, how to handle, is the numeric value of things. 22:36
Here, it may *look* logical that $foo<bar> == 42, but why wouldn't it == 2, for containing two elements? 22:37
That probably means there's something fundamentally wrong with my ideas, but I don't yet know how to fix it.
moritz Juerd: shouldn't it be [42, 15]? 22:38
Juerd So perhaps it's just an Array that returns its last element when used in scalar context.
moritz: Both!
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moritz Juerd: why the heck should it return it's _last_ element? 22:39
dduncan Juerd, mind this channel ... I may have a few questions for you to guide my progress, which is starting immediately ...
Juerd dduncan: I'm sick and need to sleep soon.
moritz: To be compatible with current scripts.
dduncan oh 22:40
I'll be quick then, maybe just one question
Juerd moritz: Many existing sites depend on addition to the query string overriding previous values.
dduncan your example code seemed to fall into 2 main namespaces, HTTP and Web
Juerd moritz: When re-writing implementation, you don't also want to re-write all URLs, because there may be external links to them.
dduncan would you say that HTTP is standalone, and Web is an optional extension?
Juerd dduncan: Both stand alone, but Web depends on HTTP.
dduncan I'm inclined to make 2 ext/ entries from what I saw, one for each, if so 22:41
Juerd From my perspective, "HTTP" is just the "current protocol" that we use for the web.
But maybe one day someone makes xhttp, an XML 2.0 compliant protocol, that is meant to replace HTTP. 22:42
moritz Juerd: I don't get your point... why should a site use /?foo=bar;foo=baz instead of /?foo=baz ? in both cases external links would point to /?foo=bar...
Juerd: which is different from either...
Juerd moritz: "$currenturl&foo=baz"
dduncan well, I'll just do what I think will work, and people can change it later
moritz Juerd: or did I get something wrong?
dduncan and that is making HTTP/ and Web/
Juerd dduncan: Yes, that's good.
dduncan so get some sleep, then 22:43
oh, in case it wasn't obvious, as I'm doing this as your proxy, I will specifically say you are the author of these ext/ distros
Juerd Need to finish upgrading a server; I expect that to take 5 to 10 minutes 22:44
dduncan in the associated metadata
Juerd (Memo: never again do such stuff on production servers if you can't think clearly)
Thanks for proxying me
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Juerd Good night, all 22:52
moritz Juerd: good night
in which variable is the directory seperator ('/' for unix, '\' for win) stored? 22:53
dmq in what? 22:54
perl (and actually the win32 internal routines) normally handles both. 22:55
moritz perl6
so should I just use /?
dmq thats the tendency in the perl5 world.
moritz dmq: ok, thanks 22:57
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offby1 is there something like FindBin for pugs? 23:04
23:06 BooK joined
moritz offby1: I'm essentially searching for the same thing... 23:06
offby1 I see svn.pugscode.org/pugs/ext/FindBin/lib/FindBin.pm but I don't know how to use it. 23:07
"use FindBin" just yields an error.
moritz offby1: the testcases for Config::Tiny mostly fail because they are executed in the wrong directory
offby1 facepalsm
offby1 facepalms
moritz offby1: probably @*INC is wrong (or not filled sufficiently) 23:08
offby1 sure
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moritz but currently I'm lost as well 23:18
well, time for bed, good night * ;) 23:19
dduncan Juerd, you have multiple email addresses listed for yourself, but I will be using [email@hidden.address] in your metadata, following the example of at least 1 of your existing CPAN modules, unless you want a different one used 23:22
... or you're gone ... so just take that as an fyi and change it later if you want 23:23
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