pugscode.org/ | Brave souls needed to fix 'make Install'! Non-brave souls should avoid it for now
Set by moritz on 1 June 2007.
Caelum can you use perl5 modules transparently in pugs? 00:33
Tene Yes.
use perl5:DBI;
Caelum wow, cool 00:34
Tene you can also use java libraries in pugs
use java:System.Something.Whatever. 00:35
Aankhen`` O RLY?
Tene Yeah, for a while now. I thoguht audreyt blogged about it when she added it.
"thought"
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Aankhen`` Ah. 00:36
Caelum ?eval my Str $foo = "foo"; $foo = 42; $foo 00:59
ah evalbot is gone... 01:00
how come you can assign an int to a scalar declared as string?
Tene Caelum: because pugs doesn't check that yet. 01:26
Caelum ok :) 01:27
TimToady and arguably, it oughta autocoerce it to "42", given Perl's dwimminess around Str/Num 01:28
Tene my Num $x = "fourty two";
Aankhen`` Heh. 01:29
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pasteling "TimToady" at 71.139.8.243 pasted "Test.pm.yml damage; blows up on 1st test; removing .yml and rebuilding doesn't help; possible clue: just upgraded to Fedora 7" (6 lines, 448B) at sial.org/pbot/25340 01:48
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thoughtpolice from my logs I can tell this has been a very exciting day 04:00
Caelum heh 04:06
thoughtpolice :) 04:10
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TimToady well, it's not the fedora upgrade. my FC 6 machine also can't run its Test.pm.yml 04:28
amnesiac why FC? :( 04:33
nze299 heh, my machine is still FC2
perhaps I should just wipe it entirely, get one of those live cd things, and install it to the hard drive.
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dduncan fyi, I've pretty much thought through now that carrying on further with a purposefully-bad temp name for my DBMS project is a fool's errand, so I'll go straight to using my previously planned long-term name now ... Muldis::DB 05:47
if for some reason that doesn't work and another name needs picking, I'm not any worse off than the old plan, not really
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svnbot6 r16626 | gaal++ | * chase breakage from r16625, reported by TimToady++ 06:34
gaal sorry about that
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svnbot6 r16627 | gaal++ | * reintroduce the description field in CompUnit, and chase codeGens 08:06
r16627 | gaal++ | to use the filename where possible.
r16627 | gaal++ | You may need to "rm blib6/lib/*yml" with this revision.
r16627 | gaal++ | TODO: think about adding a parser revision number to the compunit
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gaal ?eval 42 08:15
?eval 43 08:17
lumi gaal: Did you knock the emitted code version number? 08:18
gaal yes
i think it's still building though
involved a P.A.Internals change after all :/ 08:19
lumi So oughtn't the *yml be rebuilt?
I might be mistaken
gaal I oughta, yes
but this being software
lumi Right 08:20
gaal and indeed it wasn't on audreyt's autopugs. fising 08:21
fixing to
o
?eval 44 08:39
Tene gaal: no evalbot
gaal why? 08:40
I mean, did someone take it down intentionally? 08:41
Tene hmm
looks like it might have been lost in a netsplit 08:42
gaal I'm finishing up a rebuild in audreyt's home dir. do you know if there's a preferred command to (re)start the bot? 08:43
Tene I'm not aware.
gaal okay, thanks 08:44
wow feather's loaded :(
Tene should just run examples/network/evalbot/evalbot-loop from the pugs root 08:45
gaal prolly nohupped or something, still checking 08:46
Tene make sure to nice it. ;)
Juerd_ gaal: Loaded? Its load is < 2
gaal then just slow :/ 08:47
Juerd_ Yes, something's wrong with it and I can't figure out what.
gaal possibly disk errors. 08:48
Juerd_ The least of activity makes its system load explode
Well, I thought that too, but SMART says everything's allright
And the disks in general work well.
Pure IO works perfectly and fast.
gaal how do i in sudo get an environment that's real close to another user's? I did -u audreyt and -s, but that looked at my svk dir and stuff. 08:49
ah, -i
Juerd_ I just sudo -s, and then su - audreyt 08:50
gaal "be yourself"
Tene 'sudo su - user' is my idiom
gaal sudo -i looks good. 08:52
meppl good morning 08:53
gaal hi meppl
meppl good morning gaal
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gaal so, evalbot should be up longly. 09:07
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gaal ?eval 45 09:46
evalbot_r16627 45
moritz gaal: I could have told you that as well ;) 09:47
gaal ?moritz-eval 45
lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
moritz 45
admittedly my response time is bit worse ;) 09:48
gaal ?moritz-eval $?VERSION
lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
moritz gaal: 1.0-RC2
Aankhen`` ?moritz-eval $*OS 09:50
lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
moritz BrainOS 1.0-RC2 (with proprietary extensions) build 1 09:51
gaal ?moritz-eval sub oo ($mse is copy) { $mse ~~ s:g/m/moo/; $mse } oo("mse")
lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
moritz moose 09:52
gaal yay
it works
Aankhen`` It needs a little optimization though. 09:53
I wonder if there are any profilers for BrainOS.
gaal Aankhen``: you're right. we should spec a language in which all programs that emit the output "moose" have a fast path and do it in O(1).
Aankhen`` Exactly.
moritz ;)
gaal for implementations to work, though, we have so solve the antler problem. 09:54
Aankhen`` Actually, that's fairly simple.
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gaal *to 09:54
Aankhen`` I think I can write an optimizer for that in Perl 5.
print "moose";
(Why would you ever write a program that *didn't* print "moose"?)
gaal well, no, it should still be able to emit other... ah, good point
Aankhen`` :-D
gaal your implementation works nicely for all but pathological cases. 09:55
even then, it has a nice failure mode.
Aankhen`` I'm not following you. :-(
gaal well, the program "1+1" is supposed to emit "2", but in your implementation it emits "moose". not the correct output, but not a *bad* output either. 09:56
Aankhen`` That's a very contrived example.
I can't imagine anyone wanting to print anything but "moose" in practice.
gaal I agree
moritz most programs aren't that complex
Aankhen`` One pathological case deserves another. ;-)
gaal and let's not forget that the language guarantees program that print "moose" run very quickly.
Aankhen`` Yes. 09:57
moritz or rather 'say "moose";'
gaal It's a purely mooseful language.
Aankhen`` moritz++ # P6 version
LOL.
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Aankhen`` ==> bed() 09:59
moritz we could teach perl 5 to call the $SIG{__SYN__} handler if it encounteres a syntax error, and set $SIG{__SYN__} = sub { print "moose\n" }
Aankhen``: good night
Aankhen`` ROTFLMAO.
09:59 asksh is now known as dwave
Aankhen`` G'night. 09:59
gaal night 10:00
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mncharity anarchistic development ++ (having just tripped on its absence elsewhere) 13:13
hmm, re access control rather than project planning. ;)
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svnbot6 r16628 | fglock++ | kp6-roadmap.pod - refactored from kp6-Perl6-roadmap.txt 13:24
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svnbot6 r16629 | fglock++ | [v6] - added docs/kp6-Notes.txt 13:30
mncharity svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/docs/kp6-roadmap.pod 13:34
avar kp6 is bootstrapped? 13:43
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fglock avar: yes, kp6 is a superset of mp6 14:07
avar I thought you meant directly bootstrapped
fglock avar: the plan has changed a bit - supporting Perl-6.0.0-STD seems to be higher priority 14:08
svnbot6 r16630 | fglock++ | [v6] - kp6-roadmap.pod - finished phase III plan
fglock avar: comments are much welcome, this is not final 14:09
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fglock avar: direct bootstrap requires heavy optimization, which is scheduled for later 14:12
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avar fglock: I've been looking at some of your PCR code after I wrapped it in a re::engine, specifically wondering about the best way to make perl5 a runtime for rules. I saw that you had made an incomplete emitter for p5rx 14:13
If you're working on regexp emitters I'd love to help with the p5 one 14:14
fglock avar: sure, it would be nice to have the p5rx backend working
avar In the long run I want something that can be ripped out and run on p5. Which a Rules => p5 emitter could do 14:15
fglock hmm - how is that different from PCR+p5rx ? 14:17
avar It's not really
gaal @tell audreyt I'm puzzled by the differing treatment of parse results in op1Eval and op1EvalP6Y. 1. why doesn't op1EvalP6Y run INIT sections? 2. why does it do unionPads on two globs, where op1Eval makes do with mergeStmts? 14:20
lambdabot Consider it noted.
fglock mncharity: ping 14:23
mncharity fglock: pong :)
fglock mncharity: I just factored out the anarchistic part of the roadmap 14:24
it looks more like a plain project now
mncharity lol 14:26
:)
fglock the roadmap sets a "main track", but it doesn't tell people what they should not to do.
I hope it works better 14:27
mncharity reading... 14:28
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fglock btw, the old version was renamed to svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/docs/kp6-Notes.txt 14:32
mncharity avar: btw, I don't know the status of p5rx, but you might look at misc/pX/Common/yet_another_regex_engine/Regexp_ModuleA.pm. The runtime (top of file, "RMARE") is separate from ast-rmare glue ("RMARE_emit"), which is separate from from the ast def, w.i.s.f the ast prep passes. Crufty code (though the runtime is cleaner that some other parts of the file). So you could just snarf the runtime. Upsides: fast, well tested, featurful. 14:38
let me know if you have any questions at all
mncharity goes back to reading... 14:39
"HoH"? 14:40
(random thought: if anyone is looking for a random web service to create, a "paste the url of a pod file and I'll ->html it for you" might be nice. or not - user "remember where it is" overhead may be too high?) 14:42
daxim_ a hash of hashes, if you wanted to know what that means 14:43
mncharity ah, thank you 14:44
re Target speed is 1/200x Perl 5, what is the current speed? 14:45
fglock mncharity: there are no measurements yet; 1/200x was about the speed of the old PIL-RUN 14:47
pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "patch, broken, towards a precomp cache" (145 lines, 5.7K) at sial.org/pbot/25351 14:48
avar mncharity: Interesting, did you write that?
gaal @tell audreyt If you could give sial.org/pbot/25351 some cycles, that'd be awesome 14:49
lambdabot Consider it noted.
svnbot6 r16631 | fglock++ | [v6] - 'hash-of-hashes' instead of 'HoH', mncharity++
gaal darn, forgot to add implementation of SHA1 14:51
fglock mncharity: I wonder if rmare could be rewritten in (Mini)Perl 6?
for 6-in-6 reuse
lunch & 14:52
pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "patch, broken, towards a precomp cache. with sha1 this time" (319 lines, 12.2K) at sial.org/pbot/25352
mncharity Milestone 1 is "AST replaced with new OO version, and test suite still runs". I'm not entirely clear what Milestone 2 is? 14:54
I think of "milestones" as testable/falsifiable assertions about the state of the code/project. 14:56
gaal gotta go, moose all & 15:00
mncharity bye gaal
Can P3 Milestone 3 really be separated from P4? Ie, how do you test ast transforms if you don't have a runtime? Actually examine the graph structure? 15:01
fglock: re no measurements yet, if it wasn't too costly, it would be nice to have at least a factor of ten estimate. eg, 1/1000? 1/10000? ... 15:03
just for context
avar: re write that, yes
avar hrm, is it emitting p5? 15:04
p5rx
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veritos yo. 15:06
i got an idea.....subs are simply lists of statements.
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veritos so you can do something like { unshift &foo, { say 'testing' } } or the like 15:07
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veritos seem feasible or useful? 15:07
avar the {} Code block would be folded into &foo's block? 15:08
veritos yep! in that case, that line (or more than one) would be prepended to the function
avar sub foo { say "ook" }; push &foo, { say "eek" }; = sub foo { say "ook"; say "eek" }
veritos yep, that's right
full on line-by-line reflection 15:09
mncharity fglock: re rmare rewritten in mp6... not the right thing i think. while some bits of thought or architecture might be used, it's essence is wrestling with p5. eg, to get local() to work properly in embedded code. and running fast on p5. given a clean language, fewer nasty constraints, you can write something much cleaner. 15:10
avar if you generalized this to all code things you could implement a lisp-like macro system:) 15:11
veritos: I think you should write up on it and send it to perl6-language
mncharity avar: re p5rx emitting p5? dunno, sorry
veritos avar: so you like the idea?
avar veritos: yes
veritos what use would it have?
debugging ( say 'this function is called' ) is the only thing i can think of 15:12
rindolf Hi all.
Hi avar
avar If it was general enough it would be an API to modify the AST
veritos yo 'dolf
avar: hmm.
maybe if everything was a list: $foo = 'hi'; unshift $foo, 'bar'; $foo == 'barhi' 15:13
moritz that reminds me of stack based languages
like forth and postscript 15:14
rindolf moritz: what's up?
veritos moritz: what do you mean?
moritz rindolf: had my third master exam today... don't want to talk about it ;)
rindolf moritz: OK. :-( 15:15
moritz: anything else?
moritz: do you know #perlcafe or #lispcafe ?
moritz: or #linguistics
moritz veritos: it looks a bit like '2; 3; +; print' which would push 2 and 3 onto a stack, + would take two args from the stack, prints takes one from the stack etc
rindolf: no, no, no and no ;-)
veritos moritz: you don't need to do that ;) 15:16
rindolf moritz: OK.
:-P
avar moritz: like perl, only it has syntax sugar around that:)
moritz rindolf: but now I know of their existance ;)
rindolf moritz: I'm here to serve.
moritz avar: exactly ;)
mncharity fglock: maybe fold P3M3 into P4? So P3 becomes 'bootstrap on new ast'. P4 'run STD'. P5 'bootstrap on STD'. ?
rindolf "Are you being served?"
moritz rindolf: and I'm here to enerve... and to code ;)
rindolf moritz: code by chatting on the IRC? 15:17
Maybe I'll work on XML-Grammar-Screenplay.
Drop the P::RD parser and convert it to use a quick-and-dirty one-pass parser I have in mind.
moritz rindolf: yes... I pipe IRC messages through a random filter, and sometimes the output is valid perl code ;)
mncharity fglock: was that the kind of feedback you were looking for? /me scrolls back... hmm... err, _were_ you looking for feedback?? ;) 15:25
Actually, P3 "regex compiler refactoring" is fine, it's P3 M1 which could be "Bootstrap on new OO AST". though I'm still not sure what P3 M2 is, so I may be missing the point. 15:27
avar: well, let me know if you have any questions about y.a.r.e or the runtime. 15:28
bbl
fglock: re creating roadmap, yay! nifty! great! :) 15:31
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fglock avar: re p5rx - yes, it builds a plain Perl 5 regex 16:00
avar r5rx = the stuff in PCR? 16:01
fglock mncharity: re P3/P4 - it does have a small runtime
avar: yes
avar Yes, I saw that emitter
fglock: What I'd like to do with PCR is the ability to map perl6 rules to perl5 packages, writing grammars in a mix of token/rule/regex and p5 subs. Ideally something that makes generated code (zero deps) 16:03
fglock mncharity: re feedback - thanks!
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moritz just found an inaccuracy in the blead perlsyn 16:03
avar Something like Rule.pmc{0,1}. Just a little cleaned up:)
moritz line 558 and 559 are outdated
fglock avar: did you see svn.pugscode.org/pugs/perl5/Pugs-Co...Rule/util/ ? 16:04
lambdabot Title: Revision 16631: /perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/util 16:05
fglock it's a grammar-to-perl5 compiler
though it's a bit old
avar oh, cool
fglock I guess this compiler, combined with PCR-plain-regex might give interesting results 16:07
"compile_p6grammar.pl" was obsoleted by v6.pm
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rindolf ingy: here? 16:14
avar fglock: I want to be able to write something like this essentially: nopaste.snit.ch:8001/10304 16:20
Then I'd run a compiler on that file that would generate a .pmc file with the same name. I could then ship the code on CPAN with zero-deps 16:21
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fglock avar: I think compile_p6grammar.pl can be modified to do that; you can use Text::Delimited to isolate perl 5 code 16:22
avar Yup, looks like it 16:23
I'm mainly thinking about the API that perl6 uses for subs in a grammar to inform the rest of the grammar whether they failed, where they should continue matching etc. 16:24
but synopsis 5 doesn't spec out all the needed parts at all, for instance it just says that perl6 has match objects but doesn't go into what methods it should have and how it should all operate 16:25
fglock avar: yes - PCR was mostly made based on irc discussions 16:26
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avar $ perl5.9.5 -E 'my $_ = "foofoofoo"; $_ =~ /foo/g; pos($_) = 6; /foo/g; say pos' 16:27
9
fglock a known bug is that PCR expects the string as a parameter, instead of using $_
avar I'm guessing you can do most of this with just a pos method on the passed match object 16:28
$ perl5.9.5 -E 'my $_ = "foofoofoo"; /foo/g; pos($_) = undef; /foo/g; say pos'
3
fglock avar: re pos() et al, see svn.pugscode.org/pugs/perl5/Pugs-Co...exPerl5.pm 16:29
lambdabot tinyurl.com/2d3mqm
avar But a lot of this isn't clear at all in s5 or in test cases I've seen, like how do I set up captures such a sub?
fglock this module compiles a PCR wrapper for perl5 regexes 16:30
avar s/such/in such/
obra fglock: Got your mail. Will try to review and comment today
fglock avar: not sure if it answers this question
obra++ - thanks! 16:31
avar sort of, at least how I can write a very simple sub that updates a position. But other details on match objects aren't clear:)
but I might try implementing some of this later-ish:) 16:32
obra thanks for doing all the actual work ;) 16:33
TimToady ext/Perl6-Grammar/t/basic.t seems to be looping...
avar prods TimToady with the above discussion:)
TimToady I've been watching it go by and .oO(but that's the part the implementors are supposed to spec...)Oo. :) 16:34
fglock avar: the other details are mostly hidden in P::C::Runtime::Match.pm
:)
avar yeah, I saw that:) 16:35
TimToady anyway, ext/Perl6-Grammar/t/basic.t already has 18 minutes of runtime... :/
and my fedora 7 testing still isn't getting off the ground... 16:36
ext/Algorithm-TokenBucket/t/test.t 16:37
Can't locate object method "new" via package "Test::Harness::Results" (perhaps you forgot to load "Test::Harness::Results"?) at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Test/TAP/Model.pm line 174, <FILE> line 2.
probably f7 "upgraded" me to an older p5 package somewhere... 16:38
fglock re ext/Perl6-Grammar - how about replace is with Perl-6.0.0-STD
TimToady 'cuz it's not "ext"? 16:39
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TimToady it's kinda core if you ask me... :) 16:39
veritos TimToady: eh? 16:40
TimToady I think the Perl grammar is not "external" or "extra"... :) 16:41
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TimToady but you'll have to backlog to see why I said that... 16:42
veritos TimToady: you see the subs-as-lists thing?
TimToady veritos: on the list of statements idea, it has some wrinkles
it would either have to violate lexical scoping, or it would be equivalent to the existing "wrap" mechanism. 16:43
it pretty much prevents the optimizer from doing any code movement.
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fglock TimToady: 'backlog' related to ext/ ? 16:44
I guess 'ext' just means 'modules' to me
TimToady and the overhead of keeping each statement in its own structure would be hard to deal with
considering the inside of every .{} subscript is considered a statement
and these days, the inside of every () and [] as well.
(at least syntactically) 16:45
so maybe that part doesn't matter
gaal rehi
veritos so in other words it's essentially too slow and hard to implement and/or optimize to be of any use ?
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TimToady but the killer is, are lexicals going to leak out of {...}? If so, it's a non-starter 16:45
the others can potentially be worked around, but we're trying to keep to the rule that "my never, ever leaks out of {...}" 16:47
veritos might be a better idea in e.g. Tcl, where everything's a string and adding more code is just concatenation?
TimToady and it would be nice for closures to close when they get to the end...
Tcl has always preferred the "everything is a string" metaphor to the exclusion of optimizability 16:48
veritos TimToady: actually in more recent ones it does parse the code in such constructs.
rindolf Hi gaal
Hi T
Hi TimToady 16:49
TimToady: how was your weekend?
gaal: I went biking yesterday.
gaal: not too many foxen during a weekday.
TimToady veritos: yes, they were pretty much forced into that by real world considerations. :)
rindolf not too many people period.
veritos TimToady: one beauty of Tcl is that i can write an interpreter in Perl in like 100 lines b/c it's so simple. 16:50
basically just recursively call an eval-equivalent for every block
TimToady yes, I call it a "delagational" language 16:51
it shares that with Lisp, which can have an even simpler eval loop :)
*delegational
veritos TimToady: heh! 16:52
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TimToady however, Lisp has a slightly more powerful semantic model underneath. :) 16:52
veritos i still like the idea of a parser being built into the language core tho
TimToady well, er, yes...
avar And lisp shows that you can have very powerful intospection but still have speed 16:53
TimToady yes, which is why I didn't push the optimizability issue, but the scoping issue.
you can always play tricks like conditional optimization and run-time pessimization, but you can't unbreak broken scoping. 16:54
veritos what i thought about the scope was that if a statement was being pushed, it wouldn't be a self-contained unit, it would actually be a part of the function. 16:55
if you wanted to push a do {} block on top, then it could have its own scope 16:56
but if you added a single statement with a my declaration, that wouldn't really affect the rest of the function anyway
(usually)
moritz veritos: I don't see how we could gain from such a system... 16:57
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moritz veritos: do you have a simple example? 16:57
16:57 karhu is now known as veritos
veritos sub foo { implementation here }; 16:57
unshift &foo, { say 'calling foo' } 16:58
real time debugging support maybe?
TimToady &foo.wrap: { say 'calling foo'; callsame; }
moritz you can get that with wrap
right
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TimToady basically, a block is immutable, but a sub (a container of a block) is mutable. 16:59
the optimizer can know at the end of the block all the uses of the "my" variables in that block and make assumptions
fglock btw, a wrap can't see the lexical variables inside the sub, right? 17:00
moritz I think that's the point about lexical variables, isn't it?
TimToady not easily, nor can it modify the pad after it's done 17:01
it's actually easier to see a parent's pad than a child's
there's CALLER::<$x> but not CALLEE::<$x> 17:02
and in fact, the child's pad might not even be created yet...
there's probably a way to cheat by appending a LEAVE to the block though. 17:03
rindolf avar: who is this biker?
avar: is that .is?
avar rindolf: wrong channel:) 17:04
rindolf avar: oh.
TimToady shawaa shimasu & 17:07
veritos eh? 17:09
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fglock is there a place where I can access Pugs 'pod' documents, formatted as html? 17:34
I want to link from a blog 17:35
moritz which document?
fglock moritz: svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/docs/kp6-roadmap.pod 17:36
moritz fglock: I can quickly setup this one, and let others follow if you want to 17:37
fglock moritz: sure :)
moritz moritz.faui2k3.org/pugs_pod/kp6-roadmap 17:38
lambdabot Title: kp6-roadmap - The "KindaPerl6" Project Roadmap
mncharity avar: was your pasted ipv4 code intended to be p5 or p6?
avar p5 17:39
fglock moritz++ # that was fast :)
avar but obviously 'token' and such would need preprocessing
moritz fglock: single documents _are_ fast ;) 17:40
avar *ipv4 = Pugs::Compiler::Rule->compile($str)->code;
TimToady hmm, t/regex/from_perl6_rules/propcharset.t has 30 minutes of runtime today...
mncharity sure. it just had ~~ and say() too, so I wondered.
moritz mncharity: no problem in 5.10 ;)
avar mncharity: I write perl 5.10 style these days:)
TimToady fglock: something in regexen is looping, I think...
mncharity ??? huh ???
mncharity wonders if he missed a memo...
fglock TimToady: looking
mncharity 5.10 has say and ~~ ?? 17:41
moritz mncharity: yes ;)
mncharity wowwwwww
avar given ("foo") { when ($_ ~~ %hash) { say $_ } } # valid 5.10 :) 17:43
moritz TimToady: my smoke (r16631) didn't loop
avar mncharity: also: search.cpan.org/~avar/re-engine-PCR..._01/PCR.pm :)
lambdabot Title: re::engine::PCR - Pugs::Compiler::Rule regex engine - search.cpan.org
TimToady I did do a yum update on the FC 6 box, so it could conceivably have replaced something Unicodey 17:44
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TimToady but it seems a completely different failure mode than my F7 laptop... 17:44
hmm, t/regex/from_perl6_rules/properties.t seems to be hung too. could be test harness related, I suppose. I'll have to run those directly and see if they hang on their own. 17:47
nope, it started progressing again 17:48
maybe I was fooled by a contiguous set of successes, since I'm waching undefs go by... 17:49
fglock TimToady: it works here with latest PCR and old Pugs (r14504); it takes just 29s
TimToady *watching
well, it usually take 5-10 minutes on my machines, but 30 minutes seems excessive
17:50 iblechbot joined
TimToady something has been pessimized... 17:50
fglock I tested propcharset.t only
gaal I don't think it's in my stuff... 18:01
TimToady not looping, just excruciatingly slow here for some reason 18:04
properties now up to 20 minutes...
with nothing else running
moritz is there a "mkdir -p" equivalent in perl5?
TimToady system "mkdir -p $dir" :P 18:05
gaal moritz: File::Path
mkpath there
moritz gaal: thanks
gaal TimToady: long shot, but does strace say anything fishy? 18:06
moritz: sure
TimToady was about to try it--I suspect it'll indicate it's reloading my unicode swashes repeatedly...
seems to be getting a lot of repeated stat failures: 18:10
stat64("/usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.6/unicore/lib/gc_sc/InTagalo.pl", 0xbfee9f3c) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
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TimToady ooh finally completed after 1825 seconds 18:12
gaal I CAN HAS TAGALOG?
TimToady also does a lot of repeated stat64("/home/larry/pugs/perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/lib", {st_mode=S_IFDIR|0775, st_size=4096, ...}) = 0 18:13
but maybe that's PCR cache related
hmm, why is it looking in vendor_perl/5.8.6? 18:14
my vendor perl is 5.8.8 18:15
moritz perhaps it wants to sell you another perl version ;)
fglock hmm - maybe a broken Cache::Cache - I've seen something like this before, but I don't know how to fix it
it worked right as root, but didn't cache as a normal user 18:16
TimToady Actually, it's searching backwards 5.8.8, 5.8.7, 5.8.6, 5.8.5
so I think my vendor has clobbered the unicode database :(
moritz TimToady: did you do a "make realclean" after your upgrade? 18:17
TimToady yes
I think fedora has borken Perl 5.8.8...
at least on FC 6, and possibly on F7 18:18
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amnesiac TimToady, don't use FC :( 18:23
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moritz moritz.faui2k3.org/pugs/ # index of HTMLized pod files from the pugs repository 18:42
lambdabot Title: Index of POD files in pugs repository
moritz I intend to build a cron job that updates them regularly 18:43
18:44 obvio171_ is now known as obvio171
moritz fglock: you seem to have quite a few .pod files under v6/ that don't contain any pod... would you object to rename them to .txt? or creating real .pod? 18:46
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mncharity avar: ping? 19:03
remind me where the "official pastebot of #p6" is? (it's not in the topic, snif)
moritz nopaste 19:04
paste?
?paste
lambdabot Haskell pastebin: hpaste.org/new
moritz perlbot: paste?
perlbot Paste your code to sial.org/pbot/perl or erxz.com/pb and #perl will be able to view it.
lambdabot Title: sial.org Pastebot - pasteling
moritz mncharity: sial.org is the "official" one 19:05
fglock moritz: those files need a revision; I'll create real pod 19:06
mncharity pugscode.org/ | Brave souls needed to fix 'make Install'! Non-brave souls should avoid it for now | sial.org/pbot/perl6 19:06
mncharity ahhhh 19:06
moritz fglock: ok
mncharity++ # you were faster ;)
mncharity lol
gaal the /topic always runs over. I propose compressing it to "moose". 19:07
you kinda knew I'd say that, but somehow the only reponse you can make to that is moose 19:08
moritz moose
*SCNR*
pasteling "mncharity" at 24.128.48.3 pasted "avar: a modified version of your code" (59 lines, 1.1K) at sial.org/pbot/25355 19:13
svnbot6 r16632 | putter++ | Regexp_ModuleA.pm - repaired recognition of token x {\n...\n}. avar++
pasteling "mncharity" at 24.128.48.3 pasted "avar: the Hack it uses" (53 lines, 1.4K) at sial.org/pbot/25356 19:14
"mncharity" at 24.128.48.3 pasted "avar: output" (21 lines, 439B) at sial.org/pbot/25357 19:15
moritz now I'm confused... mncharity eq putter? 19:16
mncharity avar: re changes to your code: some were to 19:17
moritz: t
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|Bernhar| hi all, hi bernhard ! 19:18
mncharity avar: re changes to your code: some were to run it on my p5.8, others seemed obvious bugs, some I'm not sure about (ie, the capture semantics), the $noop is a kludge (I handn't gotten around to api
daxim_ annocpan is down, meh 19:19
mncharity to api'ing it yet; the sub { sub { is there for inheritance to work, and to permit Foo::ipv4->("target string"), though here you obviously don't get that (another thing not wrapped up). let's see...
<Mumble::ipv4> -> <ipv4> because I never told the grammar about <pkg::name>. But I believe al the infrastructure is there for it to work. 19:22
$c is the continuation. so local() is properly scoped.
bernhard Hi Bernhar
mncharity BacktrackMacros for FAIL 19:23
19:23 silug joined
mncharity I think that's just about it. 19:23
Let me know if you have any questions.
|Bernhar| Bernhard, you use my nick and i thought it would be ok, to tell you that, bevor ghost you ;-) 19:24
mncharity Hack is just a, err, hacked version of PugsRegexTestA.pm
19:24 jubao joined
mncharity moritz: sorry for the confusion ;) 19:25
gaal: groan 19:26
(long delayed)
bernhard Sorry, I also ran across 'Bernhard' in cia.vc/stats/author/Bernhard 19:27
lambdabot Title: Bernhard - CIA.vc
gaal mncharity: moose
bernhard I suppose I need to think of a new nick
|Bernhar| want to bet ?
mncharity avar: inheritance of rules should work properly. then again, it's unclear anyone other than me has ever run the thing, and I don't remember if I ever banged on it. But it does use inheritance internally (p6 grammar is modified p5+rules grammar is modifed p5 grammar). 19:28
bernhard is trying to be creative
pasteling "infamy" at 189.10.158.31 pasted "inf" (1 line, 57B) at sial.org/pbot/25358
|Bernhar| owns the nick password 19:29
fglock kp6 blog - pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2007/06/kindaperl6_proj.html 19:30
lambdabot Title: Pugs: "KindaPerl6" project roadmap
avar returns
mncharity: going through those links:)
mncharity :) 19:31
gaal dinner & 19:32
mncharity oooo, a shiny new pugs blog post. fglock++
moose?
fglock mncharity: I think I lost your previous comment on: how about reusing your regex engine for kp6?
|Bernhar| bernhard : german-bash.org/2921 19:33
lambdabot Title: German-bash.org - Krasse Chat-Zitate/Quotes (IRC + IM) - Zitat #2921
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avar urgh, is sial.org down? 19:33
pbotutil.pl hasn't worked for sial for me in some time, and I can't reach it in a regular browser either.. 19:34
hrm, works on another Ip
maybe they banned me because I past so much there:)
mncharity fglock: previous comment? 19:36
19:37 schmalb joined
fglock mncharity: ah, found it: moritz.faui2k3.org/irclog/out.pl?ch...04#id_l280 19:37
lambdabot Title: IRC log for #perl6, 2007-06-04, tinyurl.com/29z5fh
19:37 |Bernhar| is now known as Bernhard 19:38 Bernhard left
mncharity ah :) 19:38
fglock mncharity: is there an architecture overview? I'm specially interested in backtracking 19:40
avar mncharity: I'll try to make sense of those later:)
mncharity fglock: of y a r e?
avar mncharity: But generally that's what I'm thinking about, except I want to generate code at module::install time not with a source filter, but it can obviously be done either way:) 19:41
fglock mncharity: yes
mncharity avar: re later, :/ :) well, just let me know if you have any questions. 19:42
re source filter, DEBUG_Hack=1 perl ... will give you a copy of the code. ;) My fuzzy recollection is audreyt did a hack to .pmc-ify source filter output, but I could well be wrong. 19:43
avar mncharity: have you looked at the re::engine stuff I've been making?:)
Would be nice to have your engine via re::engine::Plugin :)
search.cpan.org/src/AVAR/re-engine-..._01/PCR.pm # it's easy!:)
mncharity fglock: re architecture... (pause)
avar mncharity: Ya, source filtering would be nice for prototyping:) 19:44
mncharity avar: re looked at, no, I haven't been following it since the first prototype, and some of audreyt's re-override mods.
Has it been run with an identity plugin against the p5 test suite? 19:45
avar But mainly I want to get a Rules implementation that feels native on p5 that doesn't scare the hell out of perl 5 people, and is fast
and PCR => generated code that mostly runs on the p5 rx engine could do that:)
identity stuff?
mncharity I saw all sorts of fun affects like subst() mangling the op tree before calling exec, so, for example, accessing a lexical would cause later segfaults. 19:46
re identity, a plugin which simply calls the usual p5 regex engine.
avar hrm, I'm not familiar with that. Haven't seen any odd segfaults
is it on cpan? what does it do? 19:47
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mncharity failures of indentity plugin - failures of normal p5 = problems with re::override (well, with respect to hairy p5 core) 19:47
avar oh you mean re::override changing? 19:48
or screwing up?
mncharity um, it's not (that I know of, may well be) an actual pluggin module on cpan. it's something you write for testing.
avar that was a super-hackish way to replace the engine by overriding symbols that audrey made, before the plugin interface in blead
mncharity re super hackish, yes. but, at least months ago when I was paying attention, it didn't seem the blead interface was really being tested. that may well have changed. but at the time, it appeared they had only done the easy part (the override), and not the pain (the p5 vm fixes). 19:50
and specifically, had not yet tried to pour the p5 test suite through the override.
mncharity wonders whether to try saying that all again, for clarity 19:51
normally one has -> engine. now we have -> override -> something. one can test how well override works by setting up -> override -> engine, and checking that the p5 test suite doesn't have regressions. 19:53
avar Yeah, it was super untested, but that changed when I started working on it:)
mncharity :)
avar re::engine::Plan9 for example is very well tested
and after my latest blead patch which makes named captures overridable I'm going to finish the wrapper around ::PCRE and run it through the perl testsuite 19:54
mncharity s/// is well tested too? with embedded code regexes and all?
avar Plan9 doesn't support embedded code:) 19:55
but no, I haven't tested anything that uses (?{}). But the debug engine uses that so I guess it works
in any case I like "str" =~ sub {} better :)
"str" =~ \@AoC; :)
mncharity "specific cases working" ne "test suite passes", no? 19:56
avar Well, there are things that work and then things I'm pretty sure work:) 19:57
But generally this stuff is very well tested by now. But some edge cases remain probably
mncharity ok
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avar search.cpan.org/src/AVAR/re-engine-...7/Plan9.xs # writing engines is simple too 19:58
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riffraff ciao 19:58
avar The stuff in Plan9_exec is sufficient to get s/// working correctly
avar loathes rx->nparens in that function 19:59
mncharity would it be trivial to do a 'just call the regular p5 regex engine' pluggin?
avar unix done right my ass:)
mncharity lol
riffraff plan9? we're starting to port pugs to alternative OSes?
mncharity (a long lol - indeed)
avar riffraff: No, perl 5.10 will support plan9 regexes:)
(via cpan)
mncharity: Yeah, that's the really cool thing too:)
mncharity: I'm going to make re::engine::Perl::* stuff that uses the perl engine but provides alternative interfaces 20:00
for instance by making captures be match objects
me => me or someone else:)
mncharity nifty. 20:01
avar Of course that might be somewhat hacky at times do to the code structuring of the perl engine itself, some things are probably easier by just forking it
riffraff plan9 regexes.. url where I can learn something?
avar swtch.com/plan9port/unix/man/regexp97.html 20:02
lambdabot Title: regexp9(7) - Ported from Plan 9
avar oh, and swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html :)
lambdabot Title: Regular Expression Matching Can Be Simple And Fast
avar search.cpan.org/search?query=re%3A%...p;mode=all # but mostly this
lambdabot Title: The CPAN Search Site - search.cpan.org
avar it's not just plan9, you can have posix, pcre, whatever
I've yet to finish ::TRE and I haven't started on ::Rx yet, if anyone's interested:)
20:03 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
mncharity looks over shoulder, wondering of whom avar speaks :) 20:03
avar Anyone that's interested:) 20:04
It would also be easy-ish to do C<use re::engine::Perl ':5.5'> and such:) 20:05
riffraff avar, thanks
avar It would be useful to have a generalized test suite for different regex implementations that could be included at make dist time 20:07
search.cpan.org/src/AVAR/re-engine-...t/re_tests # I ripped these out of blead and cut out all the stuff that didn't work on plan9
mncharity anyway, I'll silence for now my longstanding (year?) pitch "that the way you need to test re overrides, is by running them against the p5 test suite. and if that is not trivial to do, then something is wrong. and if it isn't tested, then, as always, it doesn't work.". ;)
avar use Regexp::Test::Plan9; ...
fglock heh - I got a recruiting mail from google, I thought it was spam 20:08
avar Yeah, that's what I've been doing sort of, like this: search.cpan.org/src/AVAR/re-engine-.../t/subst.t
20:08 SubStack joined
avar But if you compare those with the core tests they're changed because the engine underneath isn't the same, so you have to edit them somewhat 20:08
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mncharity avar: every time my irc client renders Test:: Plan9, I see Test:<face with tongue hanging out the side>lan9. :) 20:09
avar hehe
mncharity fglock: :)
riffraff avar, now I see. Non-backtracking regexen a-la awk, right? 20:10
avar yup 20:11
mncharity re "because the engine underneath isn't the same, so you have to edit them somewhat", umm... I... can't... resist... "and that's the reason for trying it with the engine underneath the same". ;)
avar mncharity: hrm, I don't understand
riffraff: search.cpan.org/src/AVAR/re-engine-...ological.t :) 20:12
lambdabot tinyurl.com/ywddmh
riffraff but IIRC non-backtracking are not as powerful as perl5 regexen, so you're telling me that perl5.10 uses a different engine depending on input?
avar no, you can write cpan modules to replace the engine
riffraff ah ok now everything makes sense :) 20:13
thanks for taking time to explain
mncharity if the plugin uses the usual p5 regex engine, then the tests don't need to be edited.
avar so you can do package my::module; sub { use re::engine::POSIX; if "str" =~ /\(.*\)/ { ... :)
and that'll be just as fast as the perl engine since it's resolved at parse time
mncharity fglock: let's see, re architecture... 20:14
no docs. the backtracking api is all in the few BacktrackMacros. basically it's 20:16
fglock I read there is a "stream model" and a "two-continuation model" for backtracking (among others) 20:19
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mncharity it's a one continuation model 20:21
success is returned up the stack
as is failure (reserved return values) 20:22
oh, except for the sequence/group/rule/match non-local failures, which are exceptions 20:23
single argument passed down, the continuation. the str/pos/etc/etc/etc are all local() vars.
pasteling "mncharity" at 24.128.48.3 pasted "engine foundation" (32 lines, 1.2K) at sial.org/pbot/25360 20:26
mncharity $noop is just because the if !defined($c) test has non-trivial performance cost, and code can be simpler if it can assume $c is always callable, rather than always doing defined($c) ? $c->(whatever) : mumble;. I'm actually not sure what the current level of support for $c->() is (ie, giving it an undefined continuation). I first tried avar's code without the $noop. Went boom. It's a corner which needs to be cleaned up. 20:31
avar if (ref $c eq "CODE") ? 20:32
mncharity perhaps faster? could be 20:33
basically calling $c->($noop) is saying "let's see if the rest of the regex can succeed now". 20:34
one uses $cfoo->($cbar) when one wants the $cfoo to run, using $cbar as the "rest of the regex". 20:35
so given an arbitrary sub which follows this convention, and calling $f->($g), if g calls FAIL(), backtracking happens in f. if g returns a value for which FAILED($value) is false, the regex is done and f has succeeded. FAILED is (!defined($1)||(!ref($1)&&($1<=0))) so undef and negative numbers. the neg nums are just in case exceptions (for FAIL_GROUP, etc) turn out to be too expensive 20:39
s/case exceptions/case using exceptions to implement FAIL_GROUP, etc, turns out to... 20:40
if g calls FAIL_GROUP etc, an exception is thrown. particular flavors of f subs may catch some of them. eg, sub's which do groups will catch FAIL_GROUP and convert it to a simple FAIL. 20:42
rephrase: one uses $cfoo->($cbar) when one wants the $cfoo to run, with it considering $cbar as the "rest of the regex". 20:44
fglock: how are you doing? 20:45
anyone: just how unclear am I being? 20:46
ingy hola
mncharity hi ingy :)
ingy hello mr charity
mncharity looks like the n lost a descender there ;) 20:47
ingy just trimmed it up a bit
fglock mncharity: sorry - meeting (on perl6) - will backlog 21:02
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mncharity fglock: np. I got distracted too 21:24
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gaal ouch, comment spam on the blog :( 21:35
21:40 [particle] joined 21:41 weinigLap_ joined 21:54 Limbic_Region joined 21:56 Aankhen`` is now known as Aankhen 21:57 Aankhen is now known as Aankhen``
Limbic_Region fglock++ # roadmaps are always nice 22:15
22:27 ron__ joined
ron__ ?eval class Chozzle {has $a; method set_a { $::a = 1 }} $c.set_a; 22:29
gaal you need $.a there, I believe 22:30
ron__ ?eval class Chozzle {has $a; method set_a { $::a = 1 }} my $c = Chozzle.new; $c.set_a;
Limbic_Region evalbot has been dead for sometime
gaal I wonder why it's dying; I revived it earlier today 22:31
ron__ I am trying to submit some bug reports and [email@hidden.address] does not seem to be reachable.
Limbic_Region gaal - out of curiosity, does the config.yml for it have Test.pm in precompiled list? 22:32
gaal - I ask, because I think I have found the reason why Win32/MinGW was failing after the pad refactor went in
gaal checking
(I wasn't aware that it was failing there.) 22:33
Limbic_Region gaal - it isn't now
gaal - basically I started doing rmdir /s everywhere
and one of the files I removed was config.yml and magically it started working
gaal feather isn't responding to ssh :( 22:34
Limbic_Region but I just recently added in Test.pm to config.yml again and now it is apparently b0rk again
doing a realclean now
gaal nor to ping for that matter
Limbic_Region if it still fails I will remove it and try yet again
if it works after removing it, I will know for sure
yes, feather appears to be offline 22:35
22:35 REPLeffect joined
gaal ron__: in the meanwhile please write to p6-compiler -- or just mention them here. 22:35
ron__ thx - I will try back in a bit and if feather is still down I will probably write to p6-compiler. thx again for checking 22:37
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thoughtpolice grr. blogger's compose mode is seriously starting to get on my nerves. :( 22:42
22:42 Qjimbo joined
Qjimbo Hi 22:42
I've been trying to install ilbot on my server but the svn link doesn't appear to be working
Tene Qjimbo: svn.pugscode.org ? 22:44
Qjimbo yeah 22:45
b03s45le irclog # svn co svn.pugscode.org/pugs/misc/irclog/
svn: PROPFIND request failed on '/pugs/misc/irclog'
svn: PROPFIND of '/pugs/misc/irclog': could not connect to server (svn.pugscode.org)
Limbic_Region is svn.pugscode.org hosted on feather?
we just went through that
Tene Yes.
Limbic_Region feather is apparently offline ATM
Qjimbo aah I see
any idea when it will be back? 22:46
Tene We don't know why it's down, so no. ;)
Limbic_Region gaal - so far, everything is pointing to an attempt at precompiling Test.pm 22:51
doing last recompile now
gaal Limbic_Region: okay, any further hints would be appreciated. i'm off to bed (and don't have a windows buid system handy) but please do keep us posted 22:52
Limbic_Region gaal - sure, but I have previously nopasted the error 22:53
gaal - I guess I will just repost that
22:57 wolverian joined 22:58 PerlJam joined 22:59 Juerd joined, diakopter joined
Limbic_Region hey Juerd, feather was offline for a while 23:02
23:03 ron___ joined
ron___ ?eval say 'running' 23:03
23:04 ron___ left 23:06 pbuetow joined
Limbic_Region @tell gaal it certainly was the precompiled Test.yml - see sial.org/pbot/24983 23:07
lambdabot Consider it noted.
Limbic_Region @tell audreyt the problem I encountered after the pad refactor on Win32/MinGW sial.org/pbot/24983 that magically went away when I indiscriminently deleted files and directories and did an svn up came back again as soon as I added Test.pm to the list of precompiled modules in config.yml - don't know why, but that's the problem 23:08
lambdabot Consider it noted.
Qjimbo haha cool bot 23:09
Limbic_Region could anyone who has a current pugs build check to see if Test.pm is in their list of precompiled modules in config.yml ?
Limbic_Region assumes it is a Win32/MinGW problem but perhaps not 23:10
Qjimbo aaah pugscode is back 23:16
"Install all dependencies, among them are Config::File, CGI, DBI, Net::IRC, CGI::Carp, Encode::Guess, HTML::Entities, HTML::Template and Regexp::Common" how would I go about doing this? 23:22
I'm using gentoo
moritz Qjimbo: as root, cpan -i Config::File 23:23
etc
Qjimbo: what are you about to install?
in debian, some of the modules are prepacked, libconfig-file-perl for Config::File etc. 23:24
Qjimbo ooh just the irclogbot that mortiz made
aah I see 23:25
thoughtpolice is there a general way to specify a function which takes a variable number of blocks? basically 'variadic-closure' parameters.
moritz Qjimbo: atm you shouldn't use ilbot2.pl 23:26
thoughtpolice what would also work is a way to specify how to execute a given block; i.e. something like '$b.exec'
moritz ilbot.pl will do just fine 23:27
Qjimbo oh ok =)
it'll be cool if you decide to support more than one channel
I'd love to use this on my whole irc net (only 2 channels at the moment so I should just be able to run 2, but you never know about future growth =) 23:28
moritz Qjimbo: you can use two instances of ilbot, the cgi scripts support multiple channels 23:29
avar thoughtpolice: $b() ?
Qjimbo ooh right, so I can use the same database? 23:30
moritz Qjimbo: yes
Qjimbo cool ^^
moritz Qjimbo: call ilbot as perl ilbot.pl <nick> <server> <channel>
Qjimbo right 23:31
thoughtpolice avar: oh, yes. :)
ty
avar: I must have had a quick brain fart. :p 23:32
moritz Qjimbo: I think the databease def is not up date.. give me 15 more minutes and I'll upload a new one 23:34
Qjimbo ooh ok
you mean the .sql file?
moritz yes
Qjimbo right
avar who maintains the irc log thingy again? 23:35
moritz if you run both ilbot.sql and add_id.sql in that order everything should be fine
avar: /me
Qjimbo oh right ok 23:36
moritz I didn't knew I'd ever get that many users ;)
Qjimbo I like the way it uses mysql =) 23:37
very handy for what I plan to do eventually, which is scan the logs for links to topics on my forum and have the chat that followed displayed on the forum
if that makes any sense 23:38
moritz you can basically achive that by changing revision_linkify and synopsis_linkify in IrcLog.pm
and chaining more functions like that 23:39
Qjimbo well I was thinking of just using a LIKE %topiclinkhere% command on the database
moritz so you don't want to display them in the normal links? 23:40
Qjimbo oooh
you mean have it so there's a link from the topic to the irc log, yeah that'd be nifty
might be easier to just rewrite the linkgenerating routine in php though if it's based off an id in the database or something 23:41
moritz Qjimbo: s/php/perl/ ;-)
avar moritz: ew net::irc :)
moritz that's what out.pl does
Qjimbo lol
meppl good night
moritz avar: you can use the Bot::BasicBot based version if you don't like Net::IRC ;) 23:43
Qjimbo: now an up to date version of ilbot.sql is in the svn, no need for add_id.sql any more 23:46
Tene Is that the one that crashes on nick changes?
moritz Tene: that's the one that formerly crashed on nick changes... for now it just 'return undef' before the crashing line... 23:48
Tene 'kay
moritz Tene: I need to figure out how to do that properly, but currently I don't have the time 23:49
if I'm bored tomorrow... ;)
anyway, sleep& 23:51

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