pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs: [~] <m oo se> (or rakudo:, kp6:, smop: etc.) || We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/
Set by TimToady on 25 January 2008.
mncharity eg, you can't in general have functions pass arguments to other functions, and almost never 3 deep, because you have to quote/escape each level in a content dependent manner. 00:00
*shudder*
FurnaceBoy eek 00:01
mncharity that's why there's lots of <begin foo> do stuff <end foo> rather than <foo(stuff)>
FurnaceBoy: re twiki, yeah, I ran one for parrot development years ago. Never caught on, and went away when it was used as a security hole. But having a real language provided lots of opportunity for "domain specific" value-added, like wiki-based pod editing. 00:06
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mncharity what's something quick and simple to do... been thinking of a "sixcmd", which takes env vars PUGS_ROOT and PARROT_ROOT, so I can just say "sixcmd pugs ..." or "sixcmd rakudo..." or "sixcmd kp6...", anywhere, and not have to worry about what directory I have to be in for each one to run (they can't be installed). 00:11
FurnaceBoy twiki didn't go anywhere :) 00:13
but its security status is a little under a cloud.
prefer its markup to MediaWiki
i mean, it's still around. 00:14
mncharity at the time, there wasn't even a security mailing list. after lots of sites were compromised, there was "hmm, maybe we should start a list for admins".
re markup, what's really sad is they are all so similar, one could have a "I want to edit pages in X-like markup" as a preferences setting. 00:16
FurnaceBoy yes. 00:17
mncharity a feature request for the eventual 'wiki written in p6'. :) 00:18
FurnaceBoy similar - and every one is imperfect.
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FurnaceBoy switchable markups is a very good idea 00:18
because there is no sign that people are evolving "the perfect markup",
or if they are, it's very hard to tell.
mncharity lol
FurnaceBoy e.g. Redmine copied Trac, but made some things better and some things *worse*.
that was depressing.
mncharity /me googles redmine 00:19
FurnaceBoy redmine.org
lambdabot Title: Redmine - Overview - Redmine
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mncharity ooo, if that could grow into an alternative to gforge (the maintaining of which is apparently very scary), that would be quite valuable. 00:21
FurnaceBoy Trac is so reliable for us that I am loath to switch tools or even upgrade it. :-) 00:22
plus there are little things in redmine's wiki markup that are going to annoy me unbearably 00:24
mncharity re reliable/upgrade, :) 00:25
FurnaceBoy i guess that also implies that we don't find it *too* lacking. 00:26
we use the Svn hook to annotate tickets. awesome feature, combined with Trac mail notifications.
mncharity 'Svn hook to annotate tickets'?
FurnaceBoy commit messages get appended to tickets. 00:27
mncharity by mentioning a ticket number in the message?
FurnaceBoy we also have an svnbot in our jabber room inspired by the one here
yes.
'blah blah refs #333 and resolves #666' 00:28
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mncharity re svnbot, :) yes, nice infrastructure here. 00:29
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mncharity end of day. g'night all & 00:32
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pasteling "Klovn" at 77.46.173.220 pasted "I need help with last line. The thing is: can I put Value of POSTDATA between ""(double-quotes) instead of ''(single-quotes), cause I need to include variables?" (14 lines, 695B) at sial.org/pbot/30340 00:40
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JDlugosz Hello world! 04:16
Auzon Hi
JDlugosz I aim to learn Perl6. 04:17
This is my first time to use IRC.
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Auzon Perl 6 is a moving target somewhat 04:18
pmichaud although it's moving less than it once did :-)
spinclad you *will* like it.
JDlugosz Am I missing something? I figured this place is always hoppin, but I only see a couple lines of chat.
pmichaud certainly I don't expect the basics to change much more
JDlugosz Anyway... I installed Pugs on Windows Vista. I'm looking for some answers. 04:19
TimToady well, most of the daytime is spread over the Pacific Ocean at the moment :)
spinclad it's been pretty quiet today (typical weekend lately)
JDlugosz Daylight? Hackers come out at night.
Auzon pssssh, daytime
pmichaud 05:18 here.
although I'll have a lot more daytime than usual today.
JDlugosz 10:18 PM here in Dallas. 04:20
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spinclad 23:19:15 04:20
pmichaud heh. 24 hours from now, my local time will be the same as JDlugosz'
JDlugosz So, Pugs on Vista. Anyone else here a Windows user?
Auzon Not here 04:21
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pmichaud I use Windows for Photoshop and TurboTax, but that's about it. 04:21
spinclad [particle1 is
pmichaud wonders if it's too early to find some breakfast here 04:22
JDlugosz My Vista-specific question concerns UTF-8. I set the Console to utf-8, but Pugs itself still acts wrong. For example, it chokes on the double angle quotes.
Auzon does it work fine in a separate file?
spinclad chokes how?
JDlugosz It works fine (assumes UTF-8) for reading files, but for the interactive mode...
pmichaud I wonder if Rakudo suffers the same issue. Actually, I'm not sure that Rakudo is even reading files as utf8 yet 04:23
Auzon I'd suggest trying it in Cygwin's bash or something
pmichaud maybe that'll be a project for the plane -- get the <<'s to work
spinclad i would wonder if the console is full unicode aware, but i'd be showing my bias
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Auzon spinclad: I wonder the same thing 04:24
You could try it by printing some Unicode (Perl 5 would be a good baseline)
JDlugosz For details, see <www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=669807>.
I'll be on a plane this weekend, but no power!! 18 hours with no Jolt Cola nor computer. I'll go insane. 04:25
pmichaud for the answer to your other question, it's "\x[00ab]"
JDlugosz Auzon: yes, a file only works in UTF-8.
pmichaud (square brackets instead of curlies)
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Auzon JDlugosz: does printing UTF8 work? 04:26
JDlugosz spinclad: I set the console to UTF8 using the proper command. I can paste characters and they look right.
pmichaud: many thanks. 04:27
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pmichaud 75degF in Dallas! Is winter over already...? 04:28
(tomorrow's high)
JDlugosz Well, Pugs writes the character as two unprintable control characters.
pmichaud: why did they change to square brackets? 04:29
pmichaud curlies in Perl 6 mean "closure"
thus: say "You have { $base + $extra / 2 } units."
for consistency, curlies in Perl 6 always mean "closure", which means we don't want to be using them for \x 04:30
JDlugosz Auzon: I just tried, and it did not print correctly. I got two unprintable characters.
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JDlugosz pmichaud: I see. I did notice the general use of curlies there, which is nice. 04:30
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JDlugosz In the console window, I used the command "chcp 65001" and set the suitable font. Perhaps there is something else that is needed? 04:31
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spinclad JDlugosz: (no idea. the windows i use are X.) 04:32
JDlugosz Hopefully someone will see this in the logs. If nobody knows, I can fiddle with the Windows console end of things, and meet up with someone who knows how the stdio streams in Pugs are set up.
OK, I have another question. 04:33
Is there a list of what works and what doesn't yet, in Pugs? 04:34
spinclad the tests it passes; you could check the smoke site.
JDlugosz For example, I tried a macro, and got an error. But I thought some things already were macros, so how can they not work? Is it my mistake or are macros unsupported?
pmichaud I don't know that there's a list of things that work/don't work in pugs 04:35
TimToady no macros yet
pmichaud the best way to find out is to often look at the tests and see if there's a test for it 04:36
if there's no test, it probably doesn't work
if there is a test, then you can see if the test works
spinclad t/macros/*.t: 6 files
TimToady macros were planned to be the last thing implemented in pugs
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TimToady after MO, which audreyt didn't get to quite 04:37
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JDlugosz Hmm, I found smoke.pugscode.org, but the reports are all quite old. 04:37
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Auzon feather.perl6.nl/syn/ 04:38
Try that
JDlugosz OK, where are these *.t files?
spinclad could likely use some love
pmichaud *.t is in the t/ directory
TimToady most of the active development is on other implementations than pugs these days 04:39
JDlugosz Tim: after what? M0?
TimToady but it was very useful for developing tests
spinclad purl: MO?
TimToady Metaobjects 04:40
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JDlugosz Auzon: that just has specifications. Can you be more specific re feather? 04:40
Auzon look in them 04:41
JDlugosz Tim: then is there some implementation you'd suggest over Pugs?
Auzon they have the test code crossrefed
TimToady depends on what your interests are
perl6: say 42+1 04:42
exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[43ā¤]
..pugs: OUTPUT[43ā¤]
..rakudo: OUTPUT[43ā¤]
spinclad purl, MO is meta-objects, the self-descriptive aspect of a class and object system 04:43
TimToady no purl here
JDlugosz pmichaud: I guess they didn't include that in the binary windows distribution. I got tons of junk, but no t directory.
Auzon I like the perl6 mode :
spinclad i knew that, and i still had no idea.
Auzon :)
JDlugosz Tim: rakudo is parrot's version? 04:44
TimToady nod
spinclad so you don't have an svn checkout then
TimToady (sorry, a bit distracted at the moment...)
svn co is the easiest
pmichaud JDlugosz: ah, that's possible. You can also see the tests at svn.pugscode.org/pugs/t
JDlugosz My interest is in learning, which includes interactive trying, and writing programs for my own use. 04:45
Auzon perl6: {use v5; print "{1+1} # not 2";}
TimToady at the moment that depends on whether you're more interested in low-level stuff or high-levle
exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[{1+1} # not 2]
..pugs: RESULT[1.0]
..rakudo: OUTPUT[Error: file cannot be read: v5.pmā¤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT::HLLCompiler;panic' pc 158 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:103)ā¤called from Sub 'require' pc 5728 (src/gen_builtins.pir:4051)ā¤called from Sub 'use' pc 5694 (src/gen_builtins.pir:4032)ā¤called from Sub '_block15' pc 57
..(EVAL_10:31)ā¤called from Sub '_block10' pc 27 (EVAL_10:15)ā¤called fr...
TimToady pugs does more of the abstract stuff, rakudo more of the low-level
Auzon kp6 got it right at least :) 04:46
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JDlugosz For real programs, interoperability is good. I need system functions, not just examining its own navel. I saw in Audrey Tang's slides that pugs had that? 04:46
spinclad not entirely right...
TimToady another week or so there may be something based on STD as well :)
at least, I can currently parse 42+1 with STD...
JDlugosz pmichaud: thanks, I see that. 04:47
TimToady pugs's system interactions are only adequate for simple tasks
spinclad oh, wait
TimToady but I doubt rakudo is much further along there
pmichaud correct, rakudo doesn't have much in the way of system functions yet
TimToady most of the implementations are treating that as peripheral to their primary boostrap route 04:48
pmichaud just needs someone to write the appropriate objects and classes
TimToady pugs lets you get at most of Perl across a bridge
*Perl 5
though I've found that's a little to flakey to run a parser with :) 04:49
*too
JDlugosz If it handles Perl5 modules, no problem. There is lots of Windows stuff in CPAN, and the Win32 calling class.
What is STD?
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TimToady the standard Perl 6 grammar written in Perl 6 04:49
under pugs repo
in src/perl6/STD.pm
pmichaud svn.pugscode.org/pugs/src/perl6/STD.pm
TimToady I'm currently working on a chewing gum and bailing wire approach to translating that to Perl 5 and running it 04:50
pmichaud it's a good idea to put on sunglasses before looking at it
TimToady it's Perl, but it's not your father's Perl :)
JDlugosz OK, so what did you mean by "something based on STD", when discussing versions to run? 04:51
TimToady it will look a lot more like yacc to you
well, it's just a parser, so it would need a back end
kp6 and STD are both retargetable on the back end
sort of the inside out approach of parrot
which is one target for many languages 04:52
complementary approaches, we all hope
spinclad both kp6 and rakudo are aiming their grammars towards STD
TimToady yes, everyone is aiming there, but STD is aiming there faster :)
JDlugosz What do you mean by rakudo is better at "low level" stuff? 04:53
TimToady it can do that because it sets all its other sights very low
parrot is about VM development
so it has primarily been a bottom-up approach
pmichaud well, I'm hoping that I can liberally steal from the STD parser for PGE :-)
TimToady they had OO assembly language before they had higher level languages
and the parts of HLL they implement so far tend to be the less abstract ones 04:54
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JDlugosz So what kind of things work in rakudo that don't work in pugs? I assume that arithmetic and such were all in there! 04:54
TimToady if parrot comes to grief with respect to Perl 6, it'll be because it was originally designed just to run a better Perl 5
JDlugosz What is PGE?
TimToady Parrot Grammar Engine 04:55
pmichaud PGE is the regex engine (parser engine) for Parrot
TimToady pmichaud's baby
pmichaud one of them, at any rate.
TimToady that's one thing that parrot has had a better one of than pugs
pugs never did manage to write its own regex engine
and all of the ones it borrowed were flakey
pmichaud pugs had the advantage of already having a parser library. I didn't really have that for Parrot :-)
JDlugosz So rakudo will be better at getting the grammar correct, for complex or baroke statements?
TimToady well, the basic problem with pugs's grammar is that it was written in Haskell 04:56
pmichaud rakudo doesn't really have hashes yet, and it still has a bit to do on list context
TimToady which most perlfolx don't grok
pmichaud many of the basic operators work, yes
TimToady and the parser library isn't really something that was designed to parse Perl 6 the way it wants to be
JDlugosz doesn't have hashes? I don't follow. I tried some simple examples. 04:57
pmichaud rakudo doesn't understand my %a = ( foo => 'bar' );
it does understand %a<foo> = 'bar';
TimToady pugs understands a lot of things, but it runs very slowly
JDlugosz Oh, I thought you said pugs. 04:58
TimToady and some of the things it understand wrong
but it gets hashes
JDlugosz It reminds me of C++ when I started.
TimToady JDlugosz: btw, I just added .end .elems and .shape to S29 for you :)
but haven't had a chance to respond on PM 04:59
JDlugosz Thanks Tim.
spinclad pugs also hasn't been tracking Perl 6 changes for the last year
pmichaud well, I think I'm going to see if the breakfast buffet here is worthwhile. If not, then I'll head off to the airport
TimToady have a good flight back 05:00
JDlugosz With all the talk contrasting pugs and parrot, and not any mention of the others, it seems like I should be using those two.
I'm flying to Shanghi this weekend. Coach, no laptop power.
pmichaud well, you may be seeing the biases of the people present now
spinclad those are the two solidest
TimToady kp6 is also an interesting effort, much on par with parrot's nqp (not quite perl)
JDlugosz What is kp6?
pmichaud I don't know how far along kp6 is as far as Perl 6 execution
TimToady kinda perl 6
fglocks bootstrap on p5, basically 05:01
pmichaud www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....mentations
JDlugosz is pqp what you call parrot's implementation, or is that different from rakudo?
TimToady recently one call smop was started that is looking to be bare metal in C
spinclad npq?
TimToady and hopes to be a back end for kp6 and STD
not quite perl
what rakudo is being bootstrapped in 05:02
pmichaud nqp is a parrot tool for building stuff in parrot
but it's name says it all -- it's really "not quite perl" :-)
JDlugosz So... if people keep trying different approaches, will anyone ever finish one?
TimToady smop
smop's strength
Auzon The idea is that we'll finish enough of them to have diversity :)
TimToady is that it is trying to build in some fundamental OO abstractions
JDlugosz Why does perl5 bootstrapping easier now that it was originally?
TimToady right at the runloop level
captures and signatures and such 05:03
pmichaud (perl5 bootstrap) well, one of the reasons is that it has other implementations (pugs, parrot) to borrow from
TimToady that's an excellent question
pmichaud also, the language specification has evolved quite a bit since the last time a perl6-on-perl5 implementation was attempted 05:04
and the newer language specs simplify a number of items
TimToady mncharity is also working on a translation of STD to ruby
pmichaud (while simultaneously making them more powerful)
TimToady but basically we understand the semantics much better than we did a couple of years ago
and which ones have an impedance match with Perl 5
the STD to perl 5 translator hardly uses p5 regexen at all 05:05
except for very low level matching
pmichaud oooh, that sounds interesting
TimToady attempts to use the built-in p5 regex to do parsing have come to grief
pmichaud I'm eager to look at that
JDlugosz So it is really a matter of implementing semantics, in whatever language, and you understand those semantics better. 05:06
TimToady cd src/perl6; cheat STD.pm | gimme5 >STD5.pm
spinclad thinks he hears the sound of STD to nqp
TimToady to bootstrap the parser, yes 05:07
but there's a lot more to a complete implementation than a parser
it's just the part I'm most interested in
pmichaud however, a parser is a necessary requirement :-)
JDlugosz perl6: say "test evalbot"
exp_evalbot kp6: OUTPUT[test evalbotā¤]
..pugs: OUTPUT[test evalbotā¤]
..rakudo: OUTPUT[test evalbotā¤]
TimToady which is why the system functions and such are in such sad shape :)
pmichaud TimToady: does gimme5 do the bulk of "creating the parser"? cheat just fills in the {*} stubs? 05:08
JDlugosz Are "system functions" standardized already? I assume file I/O is pretty well defined.
TimToady cheat mostly just treats roles as macros
and also
undoes the multis into straight calls
using name mangling
pmichaud okay, got it 05:09
TimToady it's also originally used by metholate
pmichaud JDlugosz: actually, I don't know that file I/O is pretty well defined yet
TimToady originally cheat was enough to get pugs to parse STD
but I've started moving some of the functionality into gimme5
and likely cheat will go away at some point
pmichaud excellent
TimToady gimme5 is a complete hack, of course 05:10
but all it has to do is spit out really good Perl 5 :0
:) rahter
JDlugosz Strangly enough, system stuff is something I have an interest in.
TimToady it's low hanging fruit, for some definition
pmichaud (gimme5 as hack) that's okay, I just need something that gives the general idea of adding in the longest token matcher
TimToady and if you have an interest in it, go for it
that part is mostly does right now
JDlugosz Right now, simply doing file I/O will go a long way. 05:11
TimToady though a* b still doesn't add a's and b's tokens together right
pmichaud file I/O in perl 6 was also a topic of a hallway conversation yesterday
so it's not only low hanging fruit, but it may also be ripe
JDlugosz I must go. Thanks for the pointers.
TimToady sure
Auzon See you, JDlugosz
TimToady if you want to change anything in the pugs repo 05:12
just ask for a commit bit here
ewilhelm wonders where this hallway was
TimToady fix tests, etc
pmichaud ewilhelm: fosdem 2008
JDlugosz Since I've never used svn, that will be a while et.
TimToady it's pretty easy
JDlugosz I'll be mostly off-line during my China trip.
pmichaud JDlugosz: so, have we met? I live in the Dallas area also (Plano) 05:13
TimToady download a bunch of stuff to look at
but don't expect it to look the same when you get back :)
JDlugosz pmichaud: I don't know. I used to live in Plano, now Allen. Maybe some Perlmongers meeting once.
pmichaud possibly. DFW.pm hasn't been very active lately. :-|
TimToady anyway, appreciate your interest 05:14
pmichaud okay, time for me to check on breakfast -- bbiab
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pmichaud looks like I'll take my chances at the airport 05:19
see you all later (possibly _much_ later)
Auzon bye 05:20
obra hello from texas, #perl6 05:30
TimToady howdy doo
obra grins. I'm working to implement 'conservation of perl6-related people in texas' 05:32
Tene I was also just considering looking into adding file IO stuff to rakudo. 05:33
I was in texas a month ago. 05:34
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obra I'm here for all of 36 hours 05:37
TimToady good luck in your conservation efforts 05:39
obra Thanks much :)
TimToady sounds a bit...euphamistic...
Auzon Are Perl 6 people a scarce resource in Texas? 05:40
TimToady is there somewhere they aren't scarce?
Auzon Touche. Maybe I can find something to hack on someday... 05:41
TimToady *euphemistic
jjore Isn't the internet in Texas? You've got all the Perl 6 people in your living room already? 05:42
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ruoso @tell mncharity I'm not sure I understood what you've said... SMOP still doesn't have anything related to AST, it will need a limited compiler that translates the code in src-s1p to C 09:49
ops, no lambdabot...
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ruoso mncharity, hi 12:43
lambdabot would have messages for you
mncharity I just saw. :) 12:46
the idea is, 12:48
hmm, maybe I should look at smop first... bbiam
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ruoso later & 12:50
mncharity, I'll backlog when I get back
12:51 ruoso left
mncharity interesting. basically, when you would find it useful to have the parse p6 and compile to s1p/sm0p, i'd be happy to collaborate. 12:56
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pugs_svnbot r19998 | putter++ | [redsix] Separate "done and put to bed" Spring 2006 work, from current development. 13:12
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19998
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pugs_svnbot r19999 | putter++ | [redsix] Removed r19948's recent for() loop kludge. for() loops simply aren't working at the moment. 13:25
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19999
mncharity Who wants the rollover commit? :) 13:26
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mncharity $ svn log -r1 15:21
r1 | autrijus | 2005-02-06 11:52:06 -0500 (Sun, 06 Feb 2005) | 1 line
* Initial checkin.
pasteling "putter" at 76.24.29.201 pasted "svn log -v -r1" (29 lines, 722B) at sial.org/pbot/30343 15:22
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pugs_svnbot r20000 | putter++ | README: Updated copyright line. 15:29
r20000 | putter++ | Pugs is Copyright 2005-2008, The Pugs Contributors.
r20000 | putter++ | Celebrating 3 years and 20,000 commits of pugs.
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20000
lambdabot Title: Changeset 20000 - Pugs - Trac
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ruoso mncharity, I think it may already be usefull to experiment on the conversion from s1p to C 15:32
mncharity I was thinking of the conversion from p6 to s1p. :) 15:33
ruoso s1p is already p6
mncharity ooo, missed that.
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mncharity www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....mop_oo_api "transversal to Perl 6" *universal (not sure where my pf.org password is:/) 15:39
lambdabot Title: SMOP OO API / Perl 6
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mncharity hmm. i'm still fuzzy. there sm0p is running and has tests. s1p is currently just spec? and the need is for a s1p-dialect p6 to sm0p compiler? 15:46
cognominal_ slp? 15:47
rakudo_svn r26057 | jonathan++ | [rakudo] Implement indirect method calls of forms $x.'foo'() and $x.$foo().
15:50 [particle1 is now known as [particle]
pugs_svnbot r20001 | particle++ | [spec] migrate some S12 methods tests 15:50
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20001
lambdabot Title: Changeset 20001 - Pugs - Trac
mncharity cognominal_: www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....p_language 15:52
lambdabot Title: SMOP s1p Language / Perl 6
pugs_svnbot r20002 | putter++ | misc/winter_jig/rx/sixrx: Created. Script for easy command-line access to regex engines. Currently only Pugs::Compiler::Rule.
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20002
lambdabot Title: Changeset 20002 - Pugs - Trac
mncharity main page www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?smop 15:53
lambdabot Title: SMOP / Perl 6
rakudo_svn r26058 | particle++ | [rakudo] remove deprecated compiler directives replaced by t/spec/fudge 16:07
mncharity bbl. ruoso: it looks quite interesting. :) I'll have to look at it more carefully. 16:22
alc :mncharity!n=jobsearc@c-76-24-29-201.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #perl6 :+bbl. ruoso: it looks quite interesting. :) I'll have to look at it more carefully.
mncharity wonders what the bleep that was. 16:23
alc :mncharity!n=jobsearc@c-76-24-29-201.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #perl6 :+ACTION wonders what the bleep that was.
TimToady weird 16:25
alc :TimToady!n=larry@host01a.appflux.net PRIVMSG #perl6 :+weird
16:25 alc was kicked by TimToady (TimToady))
TimToady hopefully that fixed it 16:26
Tene looks like a bot with a bug.
mncharity :)
16:26 Tene sets mode: +o [particle]
[particle] ty 16:26
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pugs_svnbot r20003 | putter++ | misc/winter_jig/sixen/sixcmd: Created - A script making it easier to call pugs/kp6/rakudo/redsix. Hides what directory you need to be in, and the executable invocation. The variation in command-line arguments is _not_ normalized - that's another project. 19:26
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20003
lambdabot Title: Changeset 20003 - Pugs - Trac
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pugs_svnbot r20004 | putter++ | [redsix] dusting (first half). Move redsix to redsix.rb. The suffix makes emacs ruby-mode syntax colorizing happier, which on the redsix code, makes a big difference. 19:41
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20004
lambdabot Title: Changeset 20004 - Pugs - Trac
pugs_svnbot r20005 | putter++ | [redsix] dusting (second half). Add symlink so .../redsix still works. 19:44
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20005
lambdabot Title: Changeset 20005 - Pugs - Trac
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pugs_svnbot r20006 | putter++ | [redsix] Add a -v verbose argument. Change default behavior to non-verbose. 19:51
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/20006
lambdabot Title: Changeset 20006 - Pugs - Trac
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mncharity /me wonders whether to add pil2js to sixcmd. ./runjs.pl -e 'say(3);' fails with InternalError: too much recursion . And it's inactive. and doesn't seem on a critical path... so I guess not for now. 20:18
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mncharity hmm. the misc/old_pugs_perl5_backend/ is also off the air. perhaps pugs -C PIL changed in the intervening 2+ years? 20:31
hmm, or rather since 2006-10. 20:32
ok, that's depressing. all for the want of oo declarations in an ast yaml dump. :/ 20:37
back to work.
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mncharity obra: apropos my claim we've been blocked since late 2005 for want of a parser willing to provide a parse tree with oo info, consider svn.pugscode.org/pugs/perl5/PIL2JS/...relude/JS/ svn.pugscode.org/pugs/perl5/PIL2JS/libjs/Perl6/ and svn.pugscode.org/pugs/misc/old_pugs.../PrimP6.pm . 21:14
lambdabot Title: Revision 20006: /perl5/PIL2JS/lib6/Prelude/JS
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mncharity We're still trying to recreate those capabilities. To do the same thing, just this time without pugs and audreyt. Lots of assorted progress has certainly been made since. And we can look forward to moving rather more rapidly than we could have back then. Once we catch back up to where we were. 21:16
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ludan hi 22:46
diakopter TimToady: what do you want to name your prog that can parse 42+1, for moritz' evalbot 22:48
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TimToady given that the output of that is currently 454 lines of yaml, I don't think you want evalbot to do anything with it yet 23:13
likely what you're going to end up with is names of both a frontend and backend 23:14
STD-smop, STD-parrot, etc. 23:15
or STD5-whatever
Limbic_Region TimToady - did you see the PM /msg I left you?
TimToady if you count the gimme5-translated version of STD to be a different thing
yes, he was on here last night 23:16
several of us were trying to help him along
I also added .end, .elems etc to S29 23:17
Limbic_Region I didn't triage it
just noticed it was up your alley
TimToady well, he had a good point, I just didn't repsond directly, but like I do respond half the time, just with a spec update :) 23:18
and to give other people a chance to respond :)
if all I do is answer questions directly, nothing ever actually gets done. :) 23:19
though I enjoy doing that...
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Limbic_Region regarding LTM, is it the greatest thing since sliced bread or is it still a work in progress (the idea - not the implementation) 23:32
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TimToady the idea is pretty much nailed down 23:48
Limbic_Region ok - something you are happy with then
good
TimToady I don't know if it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it's a necessity for mutable grammars
it's a form of reducing footprint of damage
much as you want to restrict a declaration to its smallest lexical scope 23:49
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Limbic_Region well, I guess what I was getting at is that I knew you knew what you wanted to achieve but were struggling with the way to accomplish it. I was wondering if you conceded a comprimise for forward progress or if you actually were pleased with the result 23:49
TimToady the other extreme, illustrated in p5, is source filtering
well, the implementation still doesn't quite match the idea, in spots
at the moment the implementation treats each named rule as an alternation 23:50
but the granularity of LTM is the (a|b|c) level
and a given named rule can have several of those
each of those has to do its LTM separately
but it has to take into account any (|) from the top of any subrules too 23:51
Limbic_Region that's what the cache thingy is for?
TimToady the interesting questions come at the point where you decide what to propagate upward as visible alternatives
yes, but the cache is currently based on the name of the rule
I've got it to where it gives each (|) its own name now 23:52
but I have to convert the caching to that granularity
or maybe not, since you can't get at the lower ones without entering the top one
Limbic_Region now is that a matter of fiddling with the implementation 23:53
or is that a matter of further thinking
TimToady but the lower ones have to sometimes participate in the higher ones, depending on where they come in a sequence and how they are quantified
it's certainly an interesting problem
Limbic_Region well, yes - at least for me from afar
TimToady if you have /a* b/ then the initial LTM depends on whether a is itself pure 23:54
if so, you just treat it as part of the rule, since something like / \w* \d / can be done in DFA 23:55
if not, you have to treat a as its own alternative, and your list of initial tokens ends up being the union of a's LTM and b's
Limbic_Region do you remember the thread a while back on perl regexes and how performance wise, things could be made much faster if a few features were dropped (greatly paraphrased on my part)?
TimToady and there are interesting questions such as, suppose a is only partly pure? 23:56
Limbic_Region at perlmonks that is
rakudo_svn r26062 | jonathan++ | [rakudo] Make $.x used away from declaration with has do something closer to the right thing.
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TimToady certainly, considering this will fix that once and for all 23:56
my response to that thread was .oO(grr, working on it...) 23:57
Limbic_Region that's the reason this is so interesting to me
TimToady this is not just about rules at the parsing level
all regex in p6 will be smart about doing those parts in DFA that they can
jnthn TimToady: In STD.pm, I'm trying to work out how a method call on $_ (as in, just .foo()) gets parsed.
Limbic_Region exactly
TimToady and then transparently (more or less) switching to backtracking where necessary
Limbic_Region that's what I was thinking in that thread - for p5 that is - only rather than expect perl and the regex engine to figure it out 23:58
a special syntax to allow the user to specify - safe to DFA
TimToady jnthn: it's possible it's simply missing :)
jnthn TimToady: Aha, OK. Was trying to work out the Right Way to add that to Rakudo.
TimToady I know there's been work in p5 to inflict tries on the regex engine where possible 23:59
a trie is just a DFA extended only over the constant strings
(to the first approx)
Limbic_Region yes, demerphq (Yves) did a lot of work on the p5 regex engine
as did others (now re-entrant safe)
TimToady but I'm going for all the marbles :)

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