pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs: [~] <m oo se> (or rakudo:, kp6:, smop: etc.) || We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/
Set by TimToady on 25 January 2008.
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garo I went to the talk at fosdem about perl6 a couple of hours ago and i just have to say 2 words: WOW, THANKS !!! 00:43
Juerd What impresses you most? 00:46
There's so much neat stuff.
garo the amount of new stuff impressed me the most, it makes perl almost another language 00:47
TimToady You're welcome! 00:50
garo Aren't you afraid that most people will miss a big a part of all the new features ? You guys experience all the changes gradually, but most users will make the step to perl 6 in very short amount of time.
TimToady the idea is for people to discover them as they go along when they need them 00:51
much like people don't discover closures in Perl 5 until they need them
if the initial experience is pretty much the same, people will not have too much future shock 00:52
Juerd garo: Well, that will go as with every new language that you learn.
garo: In many ways, Perl 6 really is a new language. It certianly looks like Perl though :) 00:53
TimToady in other words, we make it easy to write more-or-less correct cargo cult code, which usually works even if the user doesn't really know everything that's going on underneath
in that sense it is still very like Perl 5 00:54
garo I'm a bit afraid that it's going to be like my first experience with regexps. I programmed in C, never heard of the concept of regexps, so never missed it. But now that i know it, i couldn't live without it
TimToady on the other end, we're trying very hard to make Perl 6 a language that doesn't run out of gas just when you need it to go another mile down the road 00:55
basically, we've set ourselves almost impossible design goals, and are coming very close to implementing them. :) 00:56
garo :)
TimToady and we've always felt (well, since 2000) that Perl culture was strong enough to take the shock. 00:57
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TimToady but that's partly because we've stretched it all out like a bungee cord. 00:58
everyone can take as much time as they like to get used to it, because we're not shutting down Perl 5 01:00
Juerd garo: I alreday have a hard time living without Perl 6, and I haven't even used it much yet!
(What's with my fingers swapping letters?) 01:01
TimToady whoops, gotta drive to San Francisco now...
Juerd TimToady: Drive safely!
TimToady: Et bon voyage
TimToady my kid left his wallet at the con :(
later &
give garo a commit bit if desired 01:02
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Limbic_Region garo - do you want a commitbit ? 01:13
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meppl good night 01:29
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pugs_svnbot r19994 | lwall++ | ordered disjunctions were relying on p6 meaning of (...)|| 06:02
r19994 | lwall++ | missing some grouping logic for foreign rules
r19994 | lwall++ | various buglets
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19994
lambdabot Title: Changeset 19994 - Pugs - Trac
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rakudo_svn r26038 | jonathan++ | [rakudo] First cut of smart-match for Lists; doesn't respect Whatever and so forth yet, or differences between various list types. 09:52
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mncharity What would be a good one-line summary of the focus of current rakudo development? 13:29
pmichaud functionality. 13:33
personally, I'm focused on getting the basic features of Perl (6) to work 13:34
ruoso pmichaud, that being? 13:37
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pmichaud lists, hashes, subroutines -- the basic things that one would need for writing a Perl program 13:38
ruoso hmmm... I see... 13:40
it's just that the "basic things" may be very diverse ;)
depending on the eye
pmichaud correct
Most Perl (5 or 6) programmers would expect hashes and lists to be available when writing a Perl program, so I think of those as being basic 13:41
multimethod dispatch is somewhat unique to Perl 6, so it's not "basic" 13:42
regexes are basic, named rules and grammars aren't basic
etc.
ruoso otoh, depending on the area of work, the basic might be perl 6 oo features...
I don't mean to say you're wrong at all
pmichaud i.e., my focus is to get enough of rakudo working that Perl (5) programmers can start playing with it and have most of the things they're used to working
ruoso ah... that's a pretty more defined focus ;) 13:43
pmichaud yes, oo can also be considered "basic" from a "what do I need next to build Perl 6" perspective
thus rakudo has enough oo to get started 13:44
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mncharity re "get enough of rakudo working that Perl (5) programmers can start playing with it and have most of the things they're used to working", thanks! /me finishing up a really long README. 15:07
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mncharity ruoso: I have to leave, but later, 16:17
pugs_svnbot r19995 | putter++ | [misc/winter_jig] Initial checkin. README; STATUS; kp6 ast tools; start of a kp6 ast to bare p5 backend.
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19995
lambdabot Title: Changeset 19995 - Pugs - Trac
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mncharity ruoso: Please tell me of your smop-ish needs for ast supporting infrastructure. We aim to provide. 16:18
hmm, really need something between big-picture README and 'insufficient discussion of objectives and approach' low-level STATUS tasks. ah, well. todo. 16:22
Perl 6 development has a cultural tradition of avoiding conflict. "At least he's doing something. I won't criticize or question, because that might chase him away, and after all, he may in future do something I *don't* think is completely misguided". We've had years of that. 16:24
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mncharity I'd like to change my own feedback setting to 'ruby community like' friendly but blunt. If you thing something is a mistake, say so. Silence will be taken as quiet but wholehearted agreement. ;) 16:25
bbl (late) &
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pugs_svnbot r19996 | putter++ | [misc/winter_jig] Added a Talk file for Wikipedia-like very-low-barrier-to-entry discussion. Noted some other project management needs. 16:47
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19996
lambdabot Title: Changeset 19996 - Pugs - Trac
mncharity sigh. OPLC doesn't have a usable collaborative code repository like pugs does; pugs doesn't have a usable wiki (mediawiki) like OLPC does. maze of twisty little passages. /me ->door 16:55
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cmarcelo mncharity: well, there is the wiki in Trac dev.pugscode.org/wiki 17:01
lambdabot Title: Pugs - Trac
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alester pmichaud++ perlbuzz.com/2008/02/patrick-michau...osdem.html 23:15
lambdabot Title: Patrick Michaud spreads the word at FOSDEM - Perl Buzz, tinyurl.com/2fshds
pugs_svnbot r19997 | lwall++ | missing some array methods 23:19
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/19997
lambdabot Title: Changeset 19997 - Pugs - Trac
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mncharity cmarcelo: re dev.pugscode.org/wiki , yeah, and www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi . but after using mediawiki a lot, the lack of a Talk page associated with each content page, really hits as a major loss. It's like asking someone for comments on a paper, but requiring them to wordsmith their comments, and blend them into the article people are reading. 23:40
lambdabot Title: Perl 6 / Perl 6
mncharity rather than scribbling in the margins, sending you an email, or telling you verbally. a *much* higher barrier to entry. and a practically absolute barrier to several useful forms of collaboration on the document. 23:41
eg, I went to add something to the pf.org wiki, but was unsure of why the author was doing something in what seemed a suboptimal way. instead of being able to leave a note in Talk describing the intent/question/issue, the only choices were smash the author's existing content while not understanding it, or greatly uglyify the document by inlining commentary and questions. 23:44
one could certainly have Talk pages on a trac wiki. But the absence of a tiny bit of "make it easy to see if a Talk doc exists, and to link to it without hand maintaining a link", and of the social convention, makes it not happen. 23:46
meppl good night 23:47
FurnaceBoy Trac tickets won't cut it?
then u can have a semblance of conversation
mncharity g'night meppl.
meppl ;)
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mncharity FurnaceBoy: I started to say "kidding, yes?", but there are indeed similarities. but it's sort of like comparing those comment hacks at the bottom of blogs, with using Talk on wikipedia. kind of similar, but the differences make for a different style of use. trac ticket comment chains are like using email. "regards your third point, mumble, well, frotz". 23:53
FurnaceBoy or bugzilla issues. 23:54
not perfect, granted.
but i never used mediawiki talk ... prefer TWiki, myself.
we use Trac + Jabber
cmarcelo mncharity: I see, I like the Talk pages idea too. easy solution would be adding them as needed (you add a Talk link for the page and put the talk there). people will learn the convention after you use it sometimes..
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cmarcelo or, you could contact pf.org/perl6 people to migrate to a different wiki... ;-) 23:55
mncharity cmarcelo: yeah, the technical side is basically a one line hack. "every page Foo gets a link to FooTalk on top". 23:56
FurnaceBoy cmarcelo: neat idea
mncharity re migrate, they are already migrating _off_ a mediawiki (well, migrating some content off of someone elses) perl.net.au/wiki/ .
lambdabot Title: Main Page - PerlNet
loer anyone has an idea about AI- datamining? 23:57
FurnaceBoy 's pet hate is the proliferation of wiki markups. and that people keep designing bad ones.
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mncharity in the case of mediawiki's template language, really really horrifically bad ones. even using PHP as a standard of good. 23:58
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FurnaceBoy :) 23:58

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