»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:, or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz on 22 December 2015.
brokenchicken 4 + log($n)/log(10) < 1 + log($n)/log(16) 00:00
timotimo but we will. make. it. work.
brokenchicken 3 < log($n)/log(16) - log($n)/log(10)
log(16)*log(10)*3 < log(10)*log($n) - log(16)*log($n)
log(16)*log(10)*3 < log($n**log(10)) - log($n**log(16))
log(16)*log(10)*3 < log($n**log(10) / $n**log(16))
log(16)*log(10)*3 < log(log(10) / log(16))
m: say so log(16)*log(10)*3 < log(log(10) / log(16))
camelia rakudo-moar 703799: OUTPUT«False␤»
brokenchicken Therefore, there are no numbers that are 3 chars shorter in base 16 than in base 10
samcv ok it's 600K 00:01
so i'm guessing it must be packing them
as strings it's 2.9M, in this it is only 601K 00:03
:)
timotimo that's fantastic news! 00:04
samcv err wait nvm. hold on. i was looking at the wrong binary
i know it's smaller. need to find the super long string binary
ok it's from 1.8M to 600K
:) 00:05
timotimo that's still pretty darn good
samcv ye
timotimo a third, as you predicted
samcv well i predicted it would be 1/3 LESS not 1/3 the size :P
but then again we don't have to store pointers
timotimo oh! 00:06
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brokenchicken hm, my math is wrong above 00:42
TEttinger what's this compression thing? is it compressing the standard lib, or am I on the wrong track entirely? 00:43
that's pretty impressive in general 00:44
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samcv me? 00:45
uh it just compresses the text using base 40
so basically we have 40 "characters" A-Z + '-' + ' ' plus two left over
TEttinger so like base64, but case-insensitive? 00:46
samcv so we can encode 3 characters into 1 16bit int
well atm it's case-insensitive. but if we need other case we can add it
because we have 2 left over characters, we can use those as 'shift' values. to shift to get more symbols
so we get another 39 more
TEttinger ah, clever
well
samcv so it stores text in 1/3 the size, and we seem to get another 1/3 less size savings because not having to store all these char * pointers 00:47
to all the unicode strings
s/less/more
TEttinger hm 00:48
samcv we can't access each name without going through the table, but we go through all the names anyway whenever we need to get a unicode name => cp
like with "\c[ ]"
and make a hash for future use
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samcv but 1.8M to 600K is a huge improvement 00:49
well the savings may be more, these tests did not include any NULL pointers. which currently are in some of the unicode name tables. and instead of storing a 8bit null pointer we can store a 16bit "0" there instead
so all the names end up an array of type unsigned short uninames[30000] = { 2, 31041, 5000...} 00:50
2, 31041, 5000 encodes 'SPACE' if you were wondering
TEttinger neat 00:51
have you seen lz-string?
samcv we can store the 2 (number of base 40 numbers after it), in 1/2 the width of a null byte that would be at the end of a string
TEttinger not sure if it's relevant here
samcv plus we get the savings from storing 6 characters in 2 16bit ints
does it work for compressing small strings?
timotimo there's still a lot of win to be had from compiling a list of common prefixes, i'd assume 00:52
samcv true
TEttinger main site seems down, but the repo is up github.com/pieroxy/lz-string
samcv compressing with lz4, i get 25% of the size
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timotimo like, we already have that shift mechanism 00:53
TEttinger lz-string has some interesting options for encoding as either 16-it unsigned ints or valid UTF-16
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samcv but we already get 1/3 the size as before. 00:53
TEttinger or base64 chars
samcv and compressing with lz4 we get 25% the size, so
TEttinger wooo
may not stack
samcv may as well do it this way? idk
which TEttinger ? 00:54
lz4 compressed?
TEttinger encoding as 16-bit and then lz4 may not give 1/4 of 1/3
samcv yeah no it will not at all
but 1/3 and 1/4 are pretty close
TEttinger :)
samcv and it's easy to have the strings be separated as units 00:55
timotimo make one ANATOLIAN HIEROGLYPH, one APL FUNCTIONAL SYMBOL, one ARABIC, ARABIC LETTER or maybe just LETTER to go after ARABIC, ARABIC LIGATURE (or maybe just LIGATURE), BALINESE LETTER, BAMUM LETTER PHASE-, BOX DRAWINGS, BRAILLE PATTERN DOTS-, CANADIAN SYLLABICS, CIRCLED
samcv though i guess we could just parse it and have some item between each name, but. still doesn't seem to be that much of an improvement. plus we'd have to implement some decoding
i would assume lz4 compression would do something similar? 00:56
TEttinger not sure what lz4 does differently from lzw
samcv xz compresses into 89K compared to 601K
TEttinger or lz-string, which is different again
wow
timotimo COMBINING, CUNEIFORM (SIGN and NUMERIC SIGN), EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPH, ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE, ... 00:57
probably want to build a dictionary of common substrings manually
er
automatically, *not* manually 00:58
samcv i mean we could even do that with base 40
timotimo VAI SYLLABLE, YI SYLLABLE
samcv we have 2 left over things, so we can have one be shift, and then have 40 prefixes that are most common
timotimo yeah, that's what i was thinking
BenGoldberg .u 🏳
yoleaux No characters found
samcv so could store a prefx in only two 16bit ints
yeah that would be cool 00:59
timotimo would still be massive savings
samcv yeah
probably get it down to how lz4 compressed it
BenGoldberg unicodable6, '🏳'
unicodable6 BenGoldberg, U+1F3F3 WAVING WHITE FLAG [So] (🏳)
BenGoldberg, U+0027 APOSTROPHE [Po] (')
samcv should i try a different compression other than lz4?
lz4 is just known to be faster and require less of a lookup table i *think* but i could be confusing it with something else
yeah lz4 is what i meant 01:00
timotimo we have the benefit of not having to do any streaming encoding/decoding 01:02
and also we decompress a million times more often than we compress, so our compression is allowed to be slow as molasses
samcv yeah
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samcv i need to look into the naming of the CJK ideographs. 01:06
they are derived from their properties
timotimo if we decide that the majority of codepoint names start with a prefix that's in our table, we can assume the first entry in the list is always shifted and just make up a "forget it" value for shifted, so you can skip it in case we don't have a common prefix after all. that's a valid trade-off, too.
do they have names officially?
samcv yes 01:07
well. they're not in Unidata.txt
they have names though
timotimo oof 01:08
so right after we shrink our database a whole lot, it's gonna grow again
anyway, i'll head to bed
good luck with our compression scheme! :)
we're definitely smart enough to build our own compression and decompression!
samcv err maybe it's not CJK
BenGoldberg If you're searching for common substrings, does that mean that some strings will start as ropes?
samcv maybe i'm thinking hangul. idk one of them is derived
yeah it's Hangul 01:09
timotimo btw, how do we reach exactly 40? that doesn't seem like a power-of-two number to me
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samcv it isn't 01:09
TEttinger 40 * 40 * 40 fits in 2^16 01:10
samcv but base 40 numbers fit into 16bits
that's the reason
TEttinger 64000 vs. 65536
41^3 is too big
samcv ^
TEttinger I've done this math too, for hilbert curves
timotimo ah, of course
thank you
that's enough dumb from my end for tonight :)
samcv here's my perl 6 code to generate the base40 github.com/samcv/UCD/blob/master/l...Base40.pm6
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samcv here is some sample code to do the decoding github.com/samcv/UCD/blob/master/base40decode.c 01:11
TEttinger I made a 5x5x5 space-filling curve that can be used to construct a 40x40x40 hilbert curve that's s optimal as a cube gets in 3D
somewhat interestingly, I did it visually, dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/119146..._Curve.png 01:12
timotimo pretty output 01:13
samcv base 40 is sorta simple, mostly you just have to remember it packs character triplets into base40, and the first character is the most significant place in the base 40
TEttinger heh, that was... the input 01:14
timotimo what did you export that as? did it land in blender?
waitwhat :)
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timotimo hm, if i had to output something very pretty from a script, i'd probably write a povray script 01:14
(or what those are called)
TEttinger I made it in the 3d editor (magicavoxel) so I could tell what was going to work, then went through once i had a working 5x5x5 cube and plugged it through by hand to arrays of vertices
timotimo when i was little i had a lot of fun with Moray 01:15
ah, i see
TEttinger there are many, many possible 5x5x5 layouts, only some are "good"
timotimo i won't let this distract me from going to bed, though
TEttinger heh ok
timotimo seeya!
TEttinger (this one is bad because of a 4length straight line, dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/119146...ve_old.png )
timotimo maybe tomorrow i'll have to generate a povray scene or two from perl6 01:16
TEttinger cool
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timotimo i haven't written povray script by hand ever 01:16
no promises at all.
lucs Why is the code shown in the Advent calendar only _twice_ as small as the surrounding text? 01:23
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lucs Why not smaller. How much smaller can it be. Really. 01:24
lucs eyes aren't getting better as he ages. 01:25
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brokenchicken My grant proposal to TPF is now online for community feedback: news.perlfoundation.org/2017/01/gra...ation.html 01:45
brokenchicken drops to bed.
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samcv nice brokenchicken what time did you email it? i emailed mine this weekend, haven't gotten an email back yet. hope it was received 01:50
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samcv who did you email? 01:50
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brokenchicken samcv: O 01:53
samcv: I've used the online form: www.perlfoundation.org/how_to_write_a_proposal
samcv: and it says you get reply within 24 hours, which I did 01:54
samcv hmm
brokenchicken samcv: you can email Makoto and ask tpf-grants-secretary@perl-foundation.org 01:55
samcv it has a dash in the name?
brokenchicken yup
That's where the confirmation email came from at least and the name is Makoto 01:56
And that's the address listed on www.perlfoundation.org/contact_us 01:57
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samcv perl-foundation.org? tho the site says it's perlfoundation.org 01:57
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samcv ah i see 01:58
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brokenchicken samcv: I sent my on the 12th around 5pm EST 01:59
samcv ok i sent it to that
well I sent him a message
hopefully it can still be posted this month, sometime 02:02
i think my mail client is screwing up. argh 02:07
don't even know if it sent anything. i have nothing in my sent folder
mostly sure. it's in the sent folder at least 02:08
ok got an email back. they will get back to me in a few days. yay 02:17
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cale2 Hey quick question 02:34
Does the compiler do any optimizations yet?
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cale2 For example, would it make the code faster to write in types or to write a proto method for your multis? 02:37
MasterDuke cale2: frequently using native types is faster (e.g., int vs Int, str vs Str) 02:43
samcv timotimo, in the first 10,000 unicode codepoints, there are 3990 occurrences of the word letter 02:44
so we should be able to compress pretty well. going to generate a report for all the unicode names and see what the 40 most common are 02:45
so we'll have A..Z, '-', ' ', \shift
and there could be one more, or we could leave 0 as null, which is convenient in generating the strings but not really required
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cale2 Does anyone else find emoji to be a pretty absurd concept? When they introduced the skin tones, I think that's when they jumped the shark for me 02:49
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ttt they made sense to introduce to support the encodings that already had them 02:53
samcv so i think we may be able to save 204kb if these calculations are correct. well we can save more since i'm not weighting words for length 02:54
cale2, idk it evolved out of a need for standardization of text 02:55
which is what Unicode does. but. it is a bit interesting
ttt yeah that's a good way to put it, heh.
samcv adding egyptian is just as absurd tbh
but in a diff way
but unicode does say that the eventual goal should be able to embed actual pictures or svg 02:56
instead
not gonna happen anytime soon. but even if i don't use emoji very much, some people do, which i think is good to take into account. just how unicode supports all these languages and odd scripts
but the main reason they entered unicode was the japanese phone companies started having their own separate encodings for these emojis, and so unicode adopted them as standardized codepoints, and then it just took off from there 02:57
i think codifying them in Unicode standard is what caused emoji to be adopted by the world outside of japan
and one of unicode's big goals is to try and be able to take other encodings or take manuscripts possibly quite old, and be able to correctly transcribe them. which is why we have a slashed 0 character 02:58
that is a different codepoint than '0'
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ttt it *is* kindof nice to have interoperability with various chat systems, instead of them each having their own implementation 02:59
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ttt when people text me emojis and I receive it in google hangouts or on android or on ios, they just show up regardless 02:59
samcv yeah. though i also think using actual pictures defeats the purpose of plain text
characters have a semantic meaning, which emoji qualify for 03:00
also like the country flags, are also kind of cool even though they are shitty to implement.
if you see 3 regional characters, that's one flag. if you see 2, that's one flag. if you see three + two, then you have 2 flags
next to each other
ttt I've been seeing people attempt to use the country flags 03:01
aren't the explicitly legacy/deprecated at the time they were introduced?
samcv i first thought that it was insane not to use a ZWJ between the regional indicators
but i forget the reason, eventually figured out that would actually make things worse. forget the specifics
Unicode is pretty damn purposeful with anything they do
no ttt
m: "\c[United States]".say 03:02
camelia rakudo-moar 703799: OUTPUT«🇺🇸␤»
samcv idk if you saw, but i added support for unicode sequences, to MoarVM
so that ^ just got added like a few days ago
m: "\c[United States]".uninames.perl.say
camelia rakudo-moar 703799: OUTPUT«("REGIONAL INDICATOR SYMBOL LETTER U", "REGIONAL INDICATOR SYMBOL LETTER S").Seq␤»
cale2 I just remember reading an article after the skin tones and the poop were released. The author's native language had yet to be implemented by unicode. He had some brilliant quote 03:04
samcv heh
what script did they use?/ language
cale2 "I can't write my own name, but I can let you know that I was specifically thinking about race when I sent you that smiley" 03:05
samcv some languages have multiple scripts so there is a distincion
XD
emoji are a lot easier to add than full scripts though
cale2 i'd have to look back to find it
samcv requires so much more planning and thought regarding properties and such
cale2 Have you guys been reading these comments? www.reddit.com/r/programming/comme...?limit=500 03:06
good reading material
samcv nope 03:08
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samcv ok yeah so we can save at least 212.108 KB if we have 29 words be values in our "shift" for the base 40 encoding 03:33
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samcv need to tweak the weighting a little more, and maybe we could have double shift, and so that would still only take up two bytes, instead of about 2/3 * 2 bytes 03:36
ttt samcv: I didn't say so earlier, but \c[United States] is pretty cool. 03:38
samcv :)
yeah all the emoji sequences and emoji zwj work. and soonish will also do all the non-emoji unicode sequences. but before I do that i need to make it case insensitive and some other things 03:39
also all 400+ Name Alias's have been added as well. as of this commit github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/commit/81...49264335bf 03:40
list of aliases is here ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UCD/latest/ucd/NameAliases.txt
the alias names also include corrections, since unicode names never change
u: U+FE18
unicodable6 samcv, U+FE18 PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL RIGHT WHITE LENTICULAR BRAKCET [Pe] (︘)
samcv see how this one is misspelled :P
u: 0x2B7A
unicodable6 samcv, U+2B7A LEFTWARDS TRIANGLE-HEADED ARROW WITH DOUBLE HORIZONTAL STROKE [So] (⭺)
ttt I think a few have changed. That rule was introduced in some version after 1.0 iirc.
samcv wow that's uh 03:41
that's a bad error
ttt It's been a while since I last dove deep into Unicode though.
samcv the correction name for 2B7A: LEFTWARDS TRIANGLE-HEADED ARROW WITH DOUBLE VERTICAL STROKE
ttt it's a fun source of rabbit holes when you're wanting to find one to fall down.
samcv so the canonical name says horizontal, but the correction is that it's actually vertical
wow
sucks when you are the person who misspelled bracket. wonder if that person got fired ;) 03:42
ttt I haven't successfully used Perl6 for much real/productive work yet, but I suspect I'm going to get a lot of mileage out of it on some various Unicode-centric/Unicode-heavy tools I have been meaning to make. 03:43
samcv nice
ttt It's very nice, in that context, how quickly it integrates new Unicode versions. 03:44
so congrats all on that, I guess :)
samcv :)
i have submitted a grant proposal to continue working on the Unicode, so i hope that gets accepted after they publish it.
will be able to make all the big changes i've been toying around with
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samcv 1.8MB => 600K and may be able to save another 250K off that. so should reduce the size of the library a lot 03:46
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ttt samcv: do you have a blog or any articles about your Perl6 work? 03:56
samcv i have a blog. cry.nu is the site. i need to get it syndicated on pl6net.org tho
and really need to do one about all the Unicode work i've done thus far 03:57
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ttt I look forward to it :) 03:57
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diakopter samcv: you should compare to the on-disk and in-memory size of libicu too :p 04:13
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Vijay_ JOIN 04:16
samcv it's 26MB diakopter
on disk
libicudata.so.58.2
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diakopter samcv: well, presumably it has tons of stuff precomputed, right? 04:18
samcv probably
idk
i think they do localization stuff too maybe? 04:19
no clue
i think they may tho
diakopter .u :laughing:
yoleaux U+003A COLON [Po] (:)
U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A [Ll] (a)
U+0067 LATIN SMALL LETTER G [Ll] (g)
diakopter *headdesk*
what document defines those emoji :ascii:
samcv none 04:20
diakopter surely they are somewhat standardized
samcv i don't think they're the full names
well. i only know abuot the official unicode ones :\
diakopter, i'm sure some of them are just the names of those characters 04:21
diakopter I see those shortcut ones lots of places
yes, it's mostly "replace spaces with underscores, and sometimes drop some redundant suffixes" 04:23
such as "last quarter moon symbol" becomes :last_quarter_moon: 04:24
well, there's plenty of much shorter abbreviations too. 04:26
samcv: yeesh, there's an emoji 5.0 beta 04:27
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samcv yeah 04:43
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Geth cosystem: b5cf76b2a8 | faraco++ | META.list
removed WebService::Gitter
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Geth cosystem: 5770aba212 | MasterDuke17++ | META.list
Removing List::Combinations

The built-in functions are now fast enough that this module is no longer needed and it has been marked as deprecated for the past four months.		 05:09
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samcv I think I almost have the hang of setting up a shift level which contains strings. at least from the perl 6 side 05:56
for now only splitting words based on spaces, i will have to compare the two and see what yields the best compression. though technically could be the biggest compression if we compare substrings too, that makes it somewhat complicated 05:59
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samcv the top 40 words award goes to "SYLLABLE","HIEROGLYPH","MATHEMATICAL","COMPATIBILITY","CAPITAL","CUNEIFORM","SMALL","SIGN","EGYPTIAN","WITH","SIGNWRITING","ARABIC","LATIN","SYLLABICS","SYMBOL","CANADIAN","ANATOLIAN","TANGUT","LIGATURE","COMBINING","SANS-SERIF","ETHIOPIC","CYRILLIC","MUSICAL","DIGIT","HANGUL","LINEAR","VOWEL","TIMES","BAMUM","RADICAL","FORM","CIRCLED","ARROW","CJK","VARIATION","ITALIC","GREEK","BYZANTINE","NUMBER" 06:00
ttt is that in order 06:03
geekosaur looks not unlikely 06:04
ttt how come "LETTER" isn't in there? 06:05
I guess my impressions are skewed because the parts of unicode I use and refer to a lot are really a small subset of the total.
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BenGoldberg .u Z 06:07
yoleaux U+005A LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Z [Lu] (Z)
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ttt hrm... anyone else having problems accessing doc.perl6.org ? 06:12
er, docs.perl6.org
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ttt looks like it needs a poke. 06:13
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samcv ttt, that is in order 06:18
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samcv so it goes from 2.2MB to 2.6MB in source (source also has comments of the names in text next to the data structure) 06:20
compiled it goes from 601K to 470K 06:21
so i guess it saved half the amount it estimated it would. need to tweak that estimation function. but manually decoding it seems to indicate it's working properly 06:27
need to add a p6 decode function so i can write some tests for it 06:28
hmm may save more space if like it uses "SYLLABLE " instead of "SYLLABLE" as the word. still not sure the best way to have it compute it for all possible combinations 06:29
and 'LETTER' is in all but 2 cases only found with spaces on either side. so could save space there 06:30
i think the spaces case may be most likely and probably the easiest to program and check. compare estimates of byte saved with spaces before/after/both/neither 06:31
but then what if you get like CAPITAL LETTER, then if LETTER encodes on both sides then can't do "CAPITAL ", ahh 06:32
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samcv oh wait ttt that's not actually the most seen list 06:33
that's in order of bytes saved if we encode the whole word as 4/3 a byte
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samcv i think the estimation method i'm using is flawed. because i do .chars - 2/3 * 2. but we're now saving it compared to encoding as a string, we should compare to as encoded in base 40. let me see if the order/words change if i do that 06:36
should be (.chars * 2/3) - 2/3 * 2
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geekosaur do you get anything by pulling the top 160 words and encoding those as bytes in 0..31 + 128..255? 06:39
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samcv hmm I don't understand what you mean 06:42
new 40 is: "SYLLABLE","HIEROGLYPH","MATHEMATICAL","COMPATIBILITY","CAPITAL","CUNEIFORM","SMALL","EGYPTIAN","SIGN","SIGNWRITING","WITH","ARABIC","SYLLABICS","SYMBOL","LATIN","CANADIAN","ANATOLIAN","LIGATURE","COMBINING","SANS-SERIF","TANGUT","ETHIOPIC","CYRILLIC","MUSICAL","DIGIT","HANGUL","LINEAR","VOWEL","TIMES","BAMUM","RADICAL","CIRCLED","VARIATION","BYZANTINE","ARROW","ITALIC","NUMBER","FORM","GREEK","PARENTHESIZED" 06:44
geekosaur find the top 160 words across all descriptions, map each to a single byte with a value in the two non-graphic ranges. so \x00 might map to LETTER, \x01 to SYLLABLE, etc. --- this assumes that descriptions only use bytes in the range 0x20 .. 0x7f (which is likely a little too large but you gain from needing fewer tests for in-range) 06:45
samcv so it's a little altered, it saved 8 bytes in the final compiled file
well i will have a 2nd level shift as well. so that's the top 80 words + compressing all the rest of the text into 2/3 the size 06:46
geekosaur if it's guaranteed to not use anything in 0x60 .. 0x7e (0x7f is DEL so not used) then you get another 32 codes to replace words; that range is ` a-z { | } ~
samcv idk if that would store better. but it's maybe possible 06:47
i get what you mean though
i guess I could compute that. so should assume that 160 number values we will have?
to encode the words that is 06:48
geekosaur well, I did say top 160. I suspect you won't even reach that though as it may not be worth applying to words of length < 4 (I mean, they'd still compress but the gain might not be worth it unless they're *really* common) 06:49
06:49 bjz left
timotimo samcv: i recommend not storing an actual null byte since we're already storing the amount of base-40-pieces at the beginning 06:50
samcv well we store the number of null bytes, not the number of characters it encodes
timotimo how many occurences of the 41th most common string are there?
samcv well timotimo we only encode a null byte for the base level, that encodes characters 06:51
the shift level has no null byte
since it's assumed after a shift character there will always be something after
timotimo right, but you only ever have a null byte at the end of a string and we already exactly know where that is, so ...?
samcv and not just have a shift hanging off the end
but we can encode a space and a word into 2 bytes
but i guess we could do the same with the proposed method. give me a sec to compile some numbers 06:52
timotimo i don't understand what you mean by "a space and a word"?
samcv well timotimo, if we have 2 base 40 numbers, it could encode 6 chareacters or 5
shift + word + space fits into one base 40 number
which is 2 bytes 06:53
timotimo oh
i'd still say we should keep a space at the end of our short-cutted words (and not at the beginning)
samcv but we could check the range
timotimo the range? 06:54
samcv the highest place of the base 40 number
which encodes the 3rd character
well we could encode a null at the end of the numbers in case there's not already a null there implicitly due to that place being 0
timotimo by character do you mean shift, word, space?
samcv that could save bytes
character as in uhm. one thing 06:55
1 charecter, or 1 shift + thingy(which would become a word)
timotimo we could call one third-twobyte a codeme
samcv well i mean two characters would be one word
codeme? k 06:56
timotimo i don't understand how encoding a 0 would be able to save storage space
samcv well a 0 is implicit if the length of the codeme's is not divisible by 3
so you have XXX|XXX|XX 06:57
there's an implicit 0 at the end
timotimo ah, right
so basically what base64 has == for
samcv so we could save room by explicitly adding a 0
which would result in the same thing for codeme divisible by 3
err. wait. it would not be the same thing
but it would be the same for if they were like 9 + 1, or 9+ 2 06:58
so assuming random distribution of number of codeme's that would save us about 2/3 of 2 bytes for each unicode name
on average 06:59
timotimo i'm still confused, i think 07:00
samcv just think of it as each base 40 number encodes 3 characters max
timotimo you mean each two-byte sequence, right? 07:01
samcv yeah they're two bytes. but yeach base 40 number is two bytes
07:01 faraco left
timotimo ok, number rather than digit 07:01
samcv the base 40 number has 3 significant digits. the most significant one encodes the 1st character, middle one encodes third
and least significant encodes the 3rd character 07:02
07:02 bjz joined
timotimo that was at least one source of confusion 07:02
samcv yeah. it was confusing for me for a while
07:02 domidumont joined
samcv no worries :P 07:02
07:03 holli_ left
timotimo i still don't know how we save space by encoding an explicit 0 that's not already enforced to be encoding some sort of padding anyway 07:03
btw, all unicode names are less than 40 characters long, aren't they?
m: say (^10000).map(&uniname).map(*.chars).minmax 07:04
camelia rakudo-moar 703799: OUTPUT«3..75␤»
timotimo oh, are not ... by far!
m: say (^10000).map(&uniname).map(* => *.chars).minmax(:by(*.value))
camelia rakudo-moar 703799: OUTPUT«"<control-0000>" => 14.."ZERO WIDTH NON-JOINER" => 17␤»
timotimo wat :)
samcv hah 07:05
timotimo oooh 07:06
of course, the whatever code takes two arguments
at first i thought "yeah, i want two arguments!"
nope, i really, really don't
samcv we save space because we don't have to encode a number of following base 40 numbers
so now we have like: 2,4999,39999
timotimo ARABIC LETTER BEH WITH THREE DOTS POINTING UPWARDS BELOW AND TWO DOTS ABOVE => 75
samcv would encode one unicode name
sorry typo, 07:07
so now we have like: 2,4999,3999
and if that actually is made up of 5 or 4 codeme's, then we can remove the leading 2
07:07 domidumont left
samcv since those empty significant base 40 digits 0 07:08
timotimo but how do we know that the first one was elided?
samcv and for the ones where it is multiples of 3 codeme's, we just add another to the end that is a 0
hmm?
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timotimo well, if we remove a leading 2, how do we know to put it back when decoding? 07:09
samcv the leading 2 only encodes the number of numbers coming after it which are part of one unicode name
it doesn't hold any other data, except the number of integers following it
timotimo ah, now i get it!
samcv ok!
:)
timotimo it's because we'll never have a unicode name that's like a few hundred characters long 07:10
samcv if we wanted to go hard mode i guess we could even have them cross 16bit integer bounderies
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samcv so X0X may be stored in one integer but the unicode names start and begin in the same integer. but that sounds a pair 07:10
timotimo, not really. it would work fine if it were really long
timotimo we might then need to encode indices into that table as bigger numbers 07:11
samcv but that may be faster for processing though
if we had really long strings
Geth cosystem: 02aa8bdda4 | (Stefan Seifert)++ | META.list
Inline::Python now uses META6.json instead of META.info
timotimo like, our indices will now have to be divided by 3 to get the right 2-byte-offset 07:12
samcv if we had bigger numbers?
timotimo well, i mean, if we want to have names overlap at beginning and end 07:13
geekosaur just histogrammed uniname... bah, that's not as amenable to word compression as I hoped 07:14
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geekosaur tot 120240 cpr 70027 sing 9571 chr 4133 07:36
taking the corpus as .uniname over ^0x10fff + the second column in NameAliases.txt, there are 9571 singletons, 4133 single-character "words" (all letters A-Z), 120240 words overall of which 70027 are compressed to a single byte with the 160 top words encoding (ignoring aforementioned letters as not worth wasting a slot) 07:38
07:38 kyan left
samcv yeah that's what I expected :\ 07:40
the most common 40 names have most of the values, but after that it kind of drops off
timotimo oh, is 40 the sweet spot? 07:41
geekosaur but actually I confirmed I can steal another 32, so :)
samcv hah
geekosaur which raises it to 72165 compressible, haven't computed space savings. note though that this encoding means many spaces go away too 07:42
samcv spaces?
oh
geekosaur because I'm not bothering with prefix/suffix (too much complexity for too little gain)
samcv wait you're not doing by word? can i see a gist? 07:43
geekosaur that is, I suspect I gain far more by being able to elide spaces around/between encoded words than I would by supporting prefixes or suffixes
?
samcv can I see how you're generating the top 130 or however many substrings?
timotimo hm .. we could totally encode only the words themselves and then have a little bit of tracking (like an actual bit) to control whether we have to emit a space or not 07:44
especially for cases where one compressed word follows another compressed word
samcv about 60 may be the sweet spot
moritz are you two inventing a custom compression algorithm?
samcv but i found that, for the second shift level
gains were less than 10% of the first shift level 07:45
timotimo moritz: yes! :D
moritz couldn't you use zlib or lzma or something, build a dictionary from the complete corpus of Unicode names, and then compress each name individually?
timotimo 020733 timotimo │ we're definitely smart enough to build our own compression and decompression!
oh no, not another 3rd party dependency! ;)
samcv heh
moritz oh, I'm not doubting your smarts
just that using a well-tested, externally developed library might be much more maintainable 07:46
timotimo i'm not sure how easy it is to share one dictionary across multiple compression runs
moritz me neither, but I think that's what HTTP/2 does for its header compression 07:47
timotimo right, but that's also a custom solution :)
moritz so you're not the only ones having that particular problem
samcv Can save: 142.424667 KB with first shift level
Can save: 24.078 KB with the second shift level
timotimo like, they have their own pre-defined dictionary that's shared between all HTTP/2 implementations
moritz and there are many HTTP/2 implementations, so there should be some libraries that support that 07:48
samcv i'm going to generate it all with explicit encoding of null at the end. and see. that should probably save quite a bit of space… 07:50
2 bytes * 2/3 * number of unicode names
geekosaur gist.github.com/geekosaur/1c44e854...1bfdf31575
moritz blog.cloudflare.com/improving-comp...ictionary/ "The utility to make a dictionary for deflate can be found at github.com/vkrasnov/dictator. 07:51
The optimized version of zlib used by CloudFlare can be found at github.com/cloudflare/zlib"
timotimo "dictator" <3
samcv: i just thought about something else
moritz sorry, I shouldn't be ruining your fun engineering project :-)
timotimo samcv: the size of a unicode name is implicitly stored in the table that gives us codepoint-to-name offsets
because offset[cp + 1] - offset[cp] equals the length 07:52
samcv which table are we talking about
timotimo that could save us 16 bit per name
(how much is that?)
moritz has a very old blog post on how to create huffman trees with Perl 6
ttt question: is this largely an exercise undertaken because it's fun and you can, or are there strong reasons to want this data to be as small as possible on-disk and/or in-mem ? 07:55
geekosaur suspects he's not using the full corpus since 27M was tossed around earlier and this is nowhere near that 07:56
timotimo isn't 27M libicu? 07:57
which has a lot more stuff in it
geekosaur ah
samcv ok so i have it down to 430K 07:58
from 470K after explicitly adding a null
and removing the leading numbers that denote how long each unicode name is 07:59
timotimo neat.
ttt and I wasn't trying to snark or anything, just legitimately curious about the motivations. 08:00
timotimo ttt: well, libmoar.so is about 5.8 megabytes big (after stripping debug info out), and we're saving on the order of three quarters of a megabyte all in all
samcv: is 3/4 megabyte saving about right?
samcv uhm. it is 1.7MB now
just the names
08:00 shayan_ left
samcv nothing else, like indexes or any code. but just an array of all the names which is what we do now, that comes in at 1.7MB 08:01
so i have that down to 430K
timotimo oooh, so 1 1/3rd megabyte
samcv also that is not including any null pointers or characters with no values to make comparison easier
yea
m: say 1.7 - .430
camelia rakudo-moar 703799: OUTPUT«1.27␤»
timotimo scrolls through a hexdump of libmoar.so 08:03
ttt ok, so significant savings for sure. what makes the size of libmoar.so matter, though? is it that people will criticise it as bloated? or could it instead be statically linked at some point in the future when there's a p6-to-exe? or are you thinking of support for embedded/SoC platforms?
timotimo so many zero bytes
ttt again just curious, might sound snarky but it's not.
08:03 domidumont left
timotimo rakudo's memory footprint is ... pretty hefty at the moment 08:03
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ttt ah ok, so looking for ways to trim that by whatever means, and this is low-hanging fruit? 08:04
timotimo well, samcv is working on our unicode stuff in general
samcv ^
timotimo and as a mostly volunteer-driven project, perl6 depends on people doing things that'll keep them happy. -Ofun and all that
08:05 avuserow left
samcv right now unicode.o is uhm 08:05
08:05 bpmedley left
samcv 4.1MB 08:05
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jast -Ofun is not a valid option for perl6 nor moar :( 08:05
samcv it should be :D 08:06
Grouped options '-Ofun' contain 'O', which is not a valid option
timotimo 001e8b90: 488b 45d0 488b 4008 4889 45e8 488b 45d0 H.E.H.@.H.E.H.E.
^- libmoar seems fun
samcv HEHEHE
08:06 avuserow joined
timotimo seriously, check out that general area in the binary, it's full of H.E.H.E. and such 08:06
also some P and some M, and also U
but so much HEHEHE in there 08:07
jast the linker has an odd sense of humour
actually I guess linking isn't the right word for this
timotimo *shrug* 08:08
have we actually checked out if our compilers put the unicode database into the shared memory segment?
08:09 Ven left, bpmedley joined
samcv no 08:10
how do i inspect that timotimo
timotimo well, there's that blog post from yesterday where there was a tool
randomascii.wordpress.com/2017/01/...nst-there/ 08:11
seems windows only?
samcv yeah i saw that
08:12 Ven joined
abraxxa how can I debug when no panda command does anything and simply hangs? 08:12
samcv did you install any modules? 08:13
or has it always been like this
ttt let me take this moment to ask a FAQ: should I use panda or zef? 08:14
samcv i use zef. because it allows updating of modules
zef upgrade
which is nice
timotimo zef is cool 08:15
08:17 xinming joined 08:20 nowan left
andrzeju_ :) 08:22
hello perl6
samcv wow there really are a ton of null in libmoar.so
timotimo columns of zeroes 08:23
samcv ^
timotimo i'm not entirely sure how to figure out what some random address in a .so file corresponds to
sammers hello 08:24
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samcv hello! 08:26
08:26 xtreak joined 08:29 nowan left 08:31 nowan joined
samcv u: movement-floorplane 08:33
unicodable6 samcv, U+1D929 SIGNWRITING MOVEMENT-FLOORPLANE FINGER CONTACT [So] (𝤩)
samcv, U+1D965 SIGNWRITING MOVEMENT-FLOORPLANE SINGLE STRAIGHT SMALL [So] (𝥥)
samcv, gist.github.com/4f0750381ab74f53e7...0fb9981260
samcv timotimo, i guess there's not an unsmall number of them 08:34
for how long they are
timotimo interesting. those could grow SIGNWRITING at the start, too, apparently
for even more savings
it's like black friday!
samcv wonders if splitting on '-' in addition to ' ' would improve compression. but it is really easy for me to check
timotimo, signwriting is one of the 1st level shifts fyi
timotimo ah
we could go through all words in the dictionary and see what percentage every other word has for coming before or after it 08:35
and if we find something with ~75% we can put the combinaiton in, too
(and the not-combined part would get demoted a little bit)
samcv if you want to see all of them gist.github.com/samcv/5ff9fe04cbea...2de8202290
timotimo i was about to ask :) 08:36
samcv the lower numbers indicate more savings
timotimo could you sort those by value? :)
samcv heh
k
i just .perl'd them i think
timotimo right, it sorts by key by default
how come smaller numbers are better? i could imagine "number of bytes saved" as a metric, but that'd go the other way 08:37
samcv well. if you want to see the bytes saved table i will dump that out too 08:38
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timotimo oh! those are actually the value that you put into the table! 08:38
that makes sense now
i didn't realize it was actually a numbering, rather than a scoring 08:39
u: triangle-headed
unicodable6 timotimo, U+279D TRIANGLE-HEADED RIGHTWARDS ARROW [So] (➝)
timotimo, U+279E HEAVY TRIANGLE-HEADED RIGHTWARDS ARROW [So] (➞)
timotimo, gist.github.com/5396500e5f66a1210e...5a974e250f
timotimo oh wow, those are a lot actually
08:39 Ven left
timotimo it's interesting that horizontal and vertical get put in so far apart 08:40
i suppose there's a bunch of codepoints where the "normal" version is horizontal, and there's an extra version that's vertical ... or something
samcv well it's scoring and numbering
the lower numbers were scored higher 08:41
timotimo right
samcv sometimes timotimo but often not
timotimo what i mean is that vertical gets 13th place in second shift, but horizontal gets 30th place
in second shift, that is.
08:42 Ven joined
samcv ah 08:42
timotimo, i'm going to set the cutoff at 10 bytes savings 08:45
this is cumulative savings over all of the unicode names btw
generating that list now
08:45 g4 joined, g4 left, g4 joined
samcv tried dumping it all and it spit out loads of ones that save like half a byte :P or ones that lose us bytes 08:46
timotimo hah, right
hey you could encode an A as 16 bits! 08:47
samcv gist.github.com/e28ad27879439a5e06...ecc23f3e04
if it was second shift level it'd be 16bits yeah
timotimo i find this fascinating in general 08:48
even 10 bytes saved is a pretty low cut-off
samcv true
timotimo how do you feel about adding a shift three? ;) 08:49
samcv that's fine. do you want me to only print out the ones it CHOOSES for shift one or shift two?
that would prolly be more useful. since there is overlap in this
timotimo oh! there is?
samcv yeah.
if you scroll down to shift two section
it's the exact same things
but the calculation is if the letter was shift two 08:50
timotimo then i'll just have to look at the first 40 of shift one, and the second 40 of shift two, right?
hm, not necessarily
samcv ^
let me generate again 08:51
timotimo remember the HEHEHEHEHE? that's the .text section
aha, here's the unicode names now 08:52
inside the .rodata section, which is where we want them
i found the place where we store all our money, it's right next to the place we store all our food!
i.imgur.com/qqBEsN0.png 08:53
abraxxa samcv: I installed 2016.12 + panda using rakudobrew yesterday and wanted to install DBIish now
timotimo aha, here's armor, ammunition, and also gemstones, too. and a whole storage full of doors!
wait ... what the frickin hell is this place 08:54
geekosaur if I parse it as dcss, there's a small army of panlords guarding the food and money :p
timotimo i.imgur.com/IN6hYzp.png - www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue3yvxckQbA
abraxxa after ages it printed out some lines: paste.scsys.co.uk/540751
timotimo the bunch of eights goes on for multiple screenpages 08:55
geekosaur lot ogf d838 with the occasional d738
timotimo yes
pages upon pages upon pages of that over and over
samcv so many 8's 08:56
so so many 8's!
timotimo eight. eight. eight. eight.
samcv ah
08:56 zakharyas joined
geekosaur pity you can't really store object files compressed on disk because you'd lose all the advantages of being able to demand page directly from shared objects 08:57
timotimo see how it even has a fullstop after each eight.
geekosaur statue maze :p
samcv here you go timotimo gist.github.com/samcv/1d391efb2707...5fe0d35140
geekosaur looks like the lair hell ending writ huge
timotimo is anybody actually watching that youtube video i shared %) 08:58
it's highly relevant
the actual libmoar.so also has TANGUT COMPONENT-\d\d\d\d 08:59
"
samcv timotimo, i'm sure we could easily add like unlimited shift levels
heh
timotimo i imagine since it has a - there, it won't get into your script at all
because, after all, those are all different words!
samcv yeah
let me split on space and -
timotimo and the CJK COMPATIBILITY IDEOGRAPH-\x\x\x\x\x are also in there 09:00
i imagine they are not much more than the offset from some position in hexadecimal?
and all 255 variation selector-\d\d
samcv ok splitting at the - now 09:01
will let you know when it's complete
abraxxa zef update hangs as well, what connection does it use?
timotimo we could put in the split and non-split variants both and maybe one of the two wins :)
samcv well we will have losses depending on the thing
some will have gains some losses 09:02
idk maybe there's a clever way, because sometimes there's some this-that, and also exists this that
09:02 dakkar joined
samcv ok we save 174KB on both levels now versus 166.502667 KB 09:02
09:02 ihab left
timotimo have a special character in the middle and a "variation selector" that tells it whether it should put in a space or a dash 09:03
samcv what
timotimo hey! i found all the hexadecimal numbers!
samcv lolll
timotimo, here's the updated list gist.github.com/samcv/11a9c817512a...fe08524885 09:04
timotimo well, we store THIS%THAT and we either put shift-2 99 0 or shift-2 99 1
shift-2 99 0 will give THIS THAT, shift-2 99 1 gives THIS-THAT
samcv well shift two takes up 4/3 of a byte 09:05
er.
no
2/3
so we're down to 422KB compiled size
timotimo we might want to give alias names the same treatment
samcv there aren't that many alias names
like 150
timotimo like, "skin tone" alone could save a kilobyte or two 09:06
samcv XD
you mean the sequence names?
timotimo oh, yeah
maybe i'm being fooled by how narrow the column is in xxd
samcv adds in shift three
timotimo 4cae70 004d6f7a 616d6269 71756500 4d72732e .Mozambique.Mrs.
4cae80 20436c61 75733a20 6461726b 20736b69 Claus: dark ski
4cae90 6e20746f 6e65004d 72732e20 436c6175 n tone.Mrs. Clau 09:07
samcv lets have unlimited shifts!
timotimo 4d42a0 6469756d 2d6c6967 68742073 6b696e20 dium-light skin
samcv as long as it saves bytes :P
timotimo 4d42b0 746f6e65 00c3856c 616e6420 49736c61 tone...land Isla
4d42c0 6e647300 00000000 02000000 e6f10100 nds.............
samcv i wonder how many shifts we'd have
timotimo m: say 0x4d42c0 - 0x4cae7
camelia rakudo-moar 703799: OUTPUT«4749273␤»
samcv since we'd get diminishing returns
timotimo m: say (0x4d42c0 - 0x4cae7) / 1024
camelia rakudo-moar 703799: OUTPUT«4637.961914␤»
timotimo wait, if that's kilobytes ... we have 4 megs of sequence names?
i must have made a big mistake
oh yeah 09:08
m: say (0x4d42c0 - 0x4cae70) / 1024
camelia rakudo-moar 703799: OUTPUT«37.078125␤»
timotimo should have copy-pasted instead of typing it in
samcv yeah that's not possible :P 09:09
timotimo "and the remaining 2400% are in this section over here" 09:10
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timotimo we're not measuring how much space it'll take to actually store the dictionary, but it ought to be less than a kilobyte or two 09:11
samcv yeah 09:12
true
haha
this is assuming you're saving more than like the number of bytes in the string
maybe should factor that in
ok i can get 185.505333 KB of saving with three shifts 09:13
saves 11KB with the 3rd level
timotimo u: times
unicodable6 timotimo, U+2062 INVISIBLE TIMES [Cf] (⁢)
timotimo, U+2297 CIRCLED TIMES [Sm] (⊗)
timotimo, gist.github.com/91b8e85a1df515ae60...8168b9c7a9
timotimo aha, cuneiform again
samcv gist.github.com/samcv/a5a8bc715d39...8e8483597c here's the 3 levels 09:14
timotimo okay, returns start diminishing pretty strongly here
samcv idk we could even be fancier and have one of the characters on the first shift level be a different shift
timotimo we could, yeah
samcv but the third level only saves 11KB 09:15
timotimo yup, might not be worth it at all
samcv oh forgot to factor in
timotimo oh wow 09:16
samcv the second level can't have a 40th thing if we use two shifts
timotimo www.p6c.org seems ... kind of dead
100% of time spent in "wait" state
timotimo power cycles the vm 09:17
moritz timotimo++
timotimo we should set up alerts in our monitoring
moritz would like to withdraw a bit more from sysadminning those systems 09:18
timotimo bombch.us/CX23
samcv timotimo, that's projected earnings right? 09:19
timotimo totally
samcv i would buy stock in that
timotimo yep
it's a company that deals in cat pictures
we have determined there's a niche in that area 09:20
there's literally not nearly enough cat pictures to satisfy demand
samcv i wonder if making 4 shift levels would be worth it
moritz wow. I *hope* that load is because perl6.org is on the hn or reddit frontpage or something :-)
timotimo if we dedicate two codemes to shifting, we can have four levels with two levels costing one codeme extra and the other 2 costing 2 09:21
samcv yeah that's what i thought
wait what
timotimo moritz: no, it looks like the virtual disk hung
samcv but what letter would we use
moritz timotimo: that's much less fun of an explanation :(
timotimo i thought we have two left over?
when i logged into the terminal it had the same output that we usually get on hack when that happens
"task apache hung for more than 120 seconds" etc
samcv uh we have null and we have shift + A..Z, '-', ' '
oh and all the numbers 09:22
timotimo ah! that was before we decided to encode null
samcv i mean i guess we could put the numbers on a different level. but that would be weird
no we always encoded null
there has to be some way to end the string
timotimo right, right
samcv but it'd be weird to have strings AND letters on an upper level
idk i guess we could do it fine 09:23
09:23 Actualeyes left
samcv idk maybe encode LETTER on the 1st level? 09:24
or have two shift levels on the base level and like Z on the second level
timotimo oh, have you already measured what letter is there most often? 09:25
samcv m: my $i = 0; for 0..0x1FFFF { $i++ if .uniname.contains('LETTER')}; say $i
camelia rakudo-moar fd8df7: OUTPUT«9222␤»
samcv oh not for letters
i mean the literal word letter
timotimo i know
samcv we save like 4x more for that one
timotimo but you wanted to put Z on the second level
samcv yeah no clue but it could be. maybe X
timotimo say [(+)] do for 0..0x1FFFF { .uniname.comb )}; 09:26
m: say [(+)] do for 0..0x1FFFF { .uniname.comb )};
camelia rakudo-moar fd8df7: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Missing block␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3[(+)] do for 0..0x1FFFF { .uniname.comb 7⏏5)};␤ expecting any of:␤ statement end␤ statement modifier␤ statement modifier loop␤»
timotimo m: say [(+)] do for 0..0x1FFFF { .uniname.comb };
samcv so we'd save 1/3 bytes * 9222 if we put LETTER on the 1st level
camelia rakudo-moar fd8df7: OUTPUT«Too many arguments in flattening array.␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
timotimo oops
samcv m: say 9222 * 1/3
camelia rakudo-moar fd8df7: OUTPUT«3074␤»
samcv 3KB is still not that much :\
timotimo m: my @names = do for 0..0x1FFFF { .uniname.comb }; @names.join("").Bag.say
camelia rakudo-moar fd8df7: OUTPUT«bag(< c o n t r o l - 0 0 0 0 >< c o n t r o l - 0 0 0 1 >< c o n t r o l - 0 0 0 2 >< c o n t r o l - 0 0 0 3 >< c o n t r o l - 0 0 0 4 >< c o n t r o l - 0 0 0 5 >< c o n t r o l - 0 0 0 6 >< c o n t r o l - 0 0 0 7 >< c o n t r o l - 0 0 0 8 >< c o n t…»
timotimo oops
m: my @names = do for 0..0x1FFFF { .uniname.comb }; @names.join("").comb.Bag.say
samcv yeah make sure you leave out any names with '<' in them 09:27
timotimo this is just a very rough estimate
camelia rakudo-moar fd8df7: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
samcv it will be incorrect becuase there's so many CJK ideographs
timotimo oh, ok
samcv will really skew it
also i'm thinking. maybe we should make words cross bounderies 09:28
of each 16bit int i mean
then we don't have to keep an index
we could skip over 3 codepoints using 1 16-bit int
could be useful
only save an offset for some ranges like CJK ideographs and resereved and such
timotimo wait what? 09:29
samcv 3 codeme's are per 16-bit int. so every time we see \0 we skip to the next CP
and so we can store three \0 in one 16-bit int
so that would save us from having to make an index
timotimo but we need random access 09:30
here's my results (when skipping anything containing < or CJK)
gist.github.com/timo/f5f2f9cb7c456...6387a4444d
9 is most rare out of all
Q is most rare out of letters
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timotimo Z would have been a good choice, too, though 09:31
samcv i don't see how that causes any more problems than what we have now. i mean we load a hash to go from codepoint names to codepoints
ttt has sudden flashbacks to memorizing Q-no-U words for Scrabble
samcv so can we not just do the same for getting codepoint's names?
09:31 bjz left
timotimo you're proposing to build a hash from number to index rather than an array? 09:31
samcv well we don't have an array now
well i mean in my proof of concept 09:32
timotimo huh? how does uniname(0x100) work then?
samcv the more common case is going from codepoint names to codepoints not the other way around
it loads the hash the same way as it does for \c[ ]
09:33 FROGGS left
samcv though i mean i guess we could store the codeme length for each codepoint's name 09:33
and store that in some array
not sure what the longest name is
but then we'd still have to scan and start from 0 to find where the cp is hm. idk 09:34
saving a huge number of indexs is pretty wasteful
i mean i guess we could store pointers to each one, but that would make it 1/3 bigger 09:36
on 64-bit
timotimo was afk for a bit 09:38
i would accept a table that gives you offsets to every 16th or 32th codepoint's name and then we can linearly scan for the exact one we need from there
that'd be fine
samcv ah. yeah that could work 09:39
timotimo reduction to a 32th or 16th of the total size ought to be good enough, eh?
samcv you mean a table of 32 indexs? 09:40
timotimo no 09:41
a table of indices for every 32nd codepoint
so if you want number 68, you'll skip directly to 64 and look for a sting-terminating 0 four times 09:42
er, three times
gist.github.com/timo/f5f2f9cb7c456.../revisions - this is what happens to letter distribution when i throw out LETTER, SYLLABLE, and HIEROGLYPH 09:43
samcv ah kk 09:45
timotimo i should probably feed it the whole first shift
samcv yeah 09:46
09:46 kaare__ joined, thayne joined, kaare_ left, thayne left 09:48 cdc joined
cdc Hello, modules.perl6.org/ -> "Service Unavailable" :-( 09:49
samcv yeah 9 is the least common one
timotimo cdc: oh crap!
samcv we could replace that with a second shift
09:50 kaare__ left
timotimo cdc: having a look now 09:50
cdc timotimo: I still hit the same error.
09:50 kaare__ joined
cdc (from 2 different networks) 09:51
samcv try 10!
panic! run in circles! shout loudly!
timotimo yeah, the server process didn't start 09:53
moritz still hopes that one day brokenchicken writes a proper systemd service file for that
timotimo moritz: we're using journal for this stuff, right? but the journal travels to another server or something? 09:54
because with journalctl i get absolutely nothing at all
moritz timotimo: that's because it's not a proper systemd service
timotimo no, i mean, journalctl gives me nothing for the whole system
moritz timotimo: iirc it's a cron job that both updates the data and (re)starts the server otherwise
timotimo: uhm.
timotimo hack also doesn't seem to have any journal 09:55
moritz that... shouldn't be like that
timotimo thought so
systemd-journald.service loaded active running
moritz bartolin: do you happen to know anything about that? 09:56
timotimo agh 09:57
i'm a dummy
i didn't run it as a privileged user
Jan 18 09:17:38 www modules.perl6.org-init.d[486]: Can't load application from file "/etc/init.d/modules.perl6.org-init.d": Can't locate Toadfarm.pm in @INC (you may need to install the Toadfarm module) (@INC contains: /etc/perl /usr/loca 09:58
jast journalctl isn't very helpful when it's a permissions issue
timotimo /usr/local/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl/5.20.2 /usr/local/share/perl/5.20.2 /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl5/5.20 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl/5.20 /usr/share/perl/5.20 /usr/local/lib/site_perl /usr/local/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl/5/usr/local/share/perl/5.20.1 . ) 09:59
jast: i didn't even think of that because on my desktop my regular user has permissions and it's always been that way
jast yeah, it's happened to me before, though
timotimo so where did Toadfarm use to be installed, and why is it gone now? 10:00
/home/modules.perl6.org/perl5/perlbrew/perls/perl-5.22.0/lib/site_perl/5.22.0/Toadfarm.pm
moritz timotimo: it's probably in a perlbrew env that the init script fails to activate
timotimo this exists
so wrong perl version
10:01 wamba left
timotimo it could be that the eval in the init script doesn't run, it's supposed to exec into the correct perl5 if it's accidentally running in a shell or something 10:02
it's definitely running the 5.22 perl, but why is it trying to use the folders for 5.20?! 10:06
samcv how do i add items to a BagHash 10:07
timotimo use hash assignment
alternatively put it in with (+)
(but that's not mutation, that's clone-and-mutate)
samcv yeah 10:08
timotimo i have no idea about perl5, i haven't a clue how to make modules.perl6.org start up correctly
except just copy-paste the module over ...
samcv timotimo, there's no easier way? 10:10
10:10 holyghost left
samcv there should be a .add or something idk 10:10
timotimo hash assignment is like .add
well, you really want += rather than just = 10:11
samcv yeah
timotimo so do that?
samcv it seemed weird to not have it. would be cool if we could add that. $b.add(3, 4) etc
so you can easily add an array or something to it
any list like thing
timotimo you already can
samcv can you show me ? 10:12
timotimo $my_bag{@the_array}>>++
samcv kk thanks
timotimo (yes, it's that magical)
even Z+= should work 10:13
er, X+= really
samcv i still it would be a nice thing to have, since we have .grab
it seems odd not to have the other direction
timotimo grab is really inconvenient to do otherwise
10:14 kaare__ left 10:15 kaare__ joined 10:19 CIAvash left, astj left, astj joined 10:21 astj left, astj joined 10:38 labster left 10:41 kaare__ is now known as kaare_ 10:42 xtreak left 10:44 xtreak joined 10:55 Ven left, xtreak left 10:57 Ven joined, xtreak joined 10:58 user9 left 11:01 wamba joined 11:07 exp-innit joined
exp-innit any recommendations on SSH modules? there's nothing on modules.perl6 but there is one on github marked as WIP 11:07
brokenchicken find something on metacpan.org and use it via Inline::Perl5 11:09
exp-innit that works i guess, but isn't very exciting :)
brokenchicken Write one and release it to ecosystem? Help out that WIP? 11:11
moritz build one yourself. From scratch!
DrForr Well, it'll get you to your goal faster than waiting for someone to write one :)
11:16 user9 joined
exp-innit :) 11:16
just wondered if anyone had tried using the one on github despite its warnings
i'll haev a play
11:19 araraloren joined 11:23 azawawi joined
azawawi hi 11:23
moritz: ping
moritz: Can you update github.com/moritz/perl6-all-modules? I want to check github.com/bbkr/jsonrpc/issues/27 11:24
11:29 raschipi joined
moritz azawawi: I'm afraid I can't until github.com/ingydotnet/git-subrepo/issues/225 is fixed 11:30
azawawi moritz: not a big deal. thx. i am working on updating json::rpc
github.com/azawawi/jsonrpc 11:31
since im using it in my Odoo::Client (github.com/azawawi/perl6-odoo-client) :)
brokenchicken .tell samcv RE .add on Setties and Baggies; there's a ticket for it: rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id...et-history 11:36
yoleaux brokenchicken: I'll pass your message to samcv.
samcv oh nice thanks brokenchicken
yoleaux 11:36Z <brokenchicken> samcv: RE .add on Setties and Baggies; there's a ticket for it: rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id...et-history
11:41 telex left 11:42 xtreak left, telex joined
azawawi Quick question, the new standard for naming base exceptions/errors is lib/MyModule/X.pm6 or lib/MyModule/X/SomeBase.pm6? 11:42
which is better?
brokenchicken haven't heard of any standards, new or otherwise. 11:43
X::MyModule::Blah reads better tho
azawawi scrap standard to convention and naming safety 11:44
brokenchicken If I were writing a custom exception, I'd definitely follow the X::* naming convention we have in core 11:46
azawawi so X::MyModule::XYZ
brokenchicken Yeah 11:47
I don't know why brrk says "best practice" is Module::X::Something
You can barelly see the
You can barelly see the ::X:: in that proposed name
azawawi X marks the spot :) 11:48
brokenchicken m: class X::AdHoc is Exception {method message {'meows'}}; try {die "x"; CATCH {when X::AdHoc { say "hi"}} 11:49
camelia rakudo-moar 82a614: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Missing block␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3e "x"; CATCH {when X::AdHoc { say "hi"}}7⏏5<EOL>␤»
brokenchicken m: class X::AdHoc is Exception {method message {'meows'}}; try {die "x"; CATCH {when X::AdHoc { say "hi"}}}
camelia rakudo-moar 82a614: OUTPUT«x␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
brokenchicken m: class X::AdHoc is Exception {method message {'meows'}}; try {die "x"; CATCH {when CORE::X::AdHoc { say "hi"}}} 11:50
camelia rakudo-moar 82a614: OUTPUT«x␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
azawawi takes a look at X:: in doc.perl6.org
brokenchicken it ain't got a full list 11:51
this is a full-ish list: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/517#is...-226804067
IIRC we figured documenting all the exceptions was a waste of time. 11:52
or rather... adds a lot of noise for little gain
azawawi a quick ack on perl6-all-modules shows only one hit "App::Kains::X" 11:53
11:53 wamba left
brokenchicken Well, I can see the point that Module::X won't ever clash with core exceptions.... but for the same reason it doesn't look like any of the typical exceptions a user would be used to. 11:54
11:54 Ven left
brokenchicken m: class X::AdHoc is Exception {method message {'meows'}}; try {die "x"; CATCH {when ::CORE::('X::AdHoc') { say "hi"}}} 11:55
camelia rakudo-moar 82a614: OUTPUT«x␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
11:55 TEttinger left
brokenchicken
.oO( X'Module::Blah )
 11:56
^_^
azawawi brokenchicken: updated github.com/bbkr/jsonrpc/issues/27. Thanks for your feedback. 11:57
11:57 Ven joined
brokenchicken m: class X'AdHoc is Exception {method message {'meows'}}; try {die "x"; CATCH {when X::AdHoc { say "hi"}}} 11:58
camelia rakudo-moar 82a614: OUTPUT«hi␤»
brokenchicken m: class X'AdHoc is Exception {method message {'meows'}}; try {die X'AdHoc; CATCH {when X::AdHoc { say "hi"}; when X'AdHoc { say "meows"}}}
camelia rakudo-moar 82a614: OUTPUT«hi␤»
brokenchicken wat
m: class X'AdHoc is Exception {method message {'meows'}}; try { X'AdHoc.new.throw; CATCH {when X::AdHoc { say "hi"}; when X'AdHoc { say "meows"}}}
camelia rakudo-moar 82a614: OUTPUT«meows␤»
brokenchicken ehehe
12:01 gregf_ left, araraloren left
brokenchicken hmmm 12:06
u: FULL-WIDTH LETTER X
unicodable6 brokenchicken, Found nothing!
brokenchicken stupid robot
m: class Ｘ::AdHoc is Exception {method message {'meows'}}; try { Ｘ::AdHoc.new.throw; CATCH {when X::AdHoc { say "hi"}; when Ｘ::AdHoc { say "meows"}}} 12:07
camelia rakudo-moar 82a614: OUTPUT«meows␤»
brokenchicken m: class Ｘ::AdHoc is Exception {method message {'meows'}}; try { die "meows"; CATCH {when X::AdHoc { say "hi"}; when Ｘ::AdHoc { say "meows"}}}
camelia rakudo-moar 82a614: OUTPUT«hi␤»
brokenchicken Now THAT'S a good standard :P
timotimo Ｘ_Ｘ 12:09
12:10 Ven left 12:11 bjz joined 12:12 Ven joined 12:13 bjz_ left 12:22 dmaestro left 12:26 Ven left 12:27 Ven joined
DrForr .seen moritz 12:34
yoleaux I saw moritz 11:30Z in #perl6: <moritz> azawawi: I'm afraid I can't until github.com/ingydotnet/git-subrepo/issues/225 is fixed
timotimo he's here
(gasp)
DrForr *boggle*
*scrabble*
... *bananagram* 12:35
sjn hands DrForr a banana 12:36
🍌 12:37
DrForr Crap, gotta update my terminal font.
sjn yay! banana motivation ftw 12:38
timotimo i should probably go from using terminal to using glowing-bear for irc
lizmat timotimo: 👍 :-) 12:39
sjn .u 🍌
yoleaux U+1F34C BANANA [So] (🍌)
lizmat 🙀 12:40
.u 🙀
yoleaux U+1F640 WEARY CAT FACE [So] (🙀)
sjn hehehe
weary of bananas, eh? :)
lizmat the joys of a touchbar full of emojis :-)
sjn fancy apples 12:41
lizmat .u 👩🏽‍🚀
yoleaux U+200D ZERO WIDTH JOINER [Cf] (<control>)
U+1F469 WOMAN [So] (👩)
U+1F680 ROCKET [So] (🚀)
lizmat hmmm... it didn't do the skintone
m: say "👩🏽‍🚀".chars 12:42
camelia rakudo-moar 82a614: OUTPUT«2␤»
lizmat 2?
hmmm...
moritz DrForr: I'm around, fwiw
sjn zero-width = 0?
lizmat m: "👩🏽‍🚀".chars 12:43
camelia ( no output )
lizmat m: "👩🏽‍🚀".chars.say
camelia rakudo-moar 82a614: OUTPUT«2␤»
samcv yeah i think that one is one of the nonworking ones?
lizmat could be a copy-pasto
samcv that too
idk check the emoji test file lizmat
and see if that one passes
lizmat where does that live ?
samcv in roast 12:44
timotimo samcv: how long are you going to stay on line and how can i see what you're up to with the unicode database compression stuff?
samcv uhm
my repo
lizmat samcv: ack
samcv i won't be online in the next hour, and may be gone for the next like 12+ hours
timotimo the UCD repo, yeah? 12:45
samcv maybe 24 so if you have anything to ask, ask it soon
yeah github.com/samcv/UCD
DrForr moritz: Howdy. I was just thinking that it might be nice to see the number of unique nicks on-channel over time, and wondered if that would be straightforward to extract.
moritz DrForr: it isn't
DrForr: the information isn't present in the logs
timotimo right, only joins and parts 12:46
so you can only get differential information
and when ilbot goes offline you're in trouble
moritz mostly because in IRC, a /quit isn't accompanied by the information which channels the user was in
timotimo ooooh, statefulness!
moritz so you'd need to keep state to know which channels the users left
which ilbot doesn't do
timotimo samcv: nah, nothing to ask, just curious 12:47
moritz what you could extract pretty easily is the list of active nicks during a day
samcv ah ok
timotimo the stuff we've been doing today hasn't landed in the repo at all yet?
or just not pushed from local to github?
samcv it ha-
has
let me do one push
jast you can actually get the current user count fairly easily, using /list #perl6
timotimo jast: OK, how do you execute that command for every day in the past year? :) 12:48
jast well, you can *start* tracking it
it's not quite the same as #unique users, of course
DrForr Oh. I'd be happy with just the number unique nicks speaking per day. Just interested to see if the number of new users is growing, remaining flat or just changing over time. 12:49
*number of
samcv timotimo, but if you run ./UCD-gen.p6 --names-only it will generate the name table
and you can run "make names"
and it will compile it
will push as soon as i double check i haven't messed anything up since last commit
timotimo ok, cool :)
i'll have a look later. for now i'll be AFK 12:50
moritz DrForr: when you send an Accept: application/json header to the regular IRC log URLs, you'll get a json response
ilmari samcv: are these constant arrays you're generating directly usable, or do they have to be converted at runtime?
12:50 wamba joined
samcv uhm and if you want to get a printout of all the number of bytes saved potentially, use --debug 12:50
they are ilmari
generate once
moritz DrForr: so you could write a small program that simply iterates over the days for #perl6 and do some stats
ilmari samcv: ah good. you might be interested in what karl williamson is doing for unicode property inversion lists in perl5
12:50 araraloren joined
samcv ok pushing now. i gotta go for a sec. may be back in an hour for like an hour. maybe 12:51
ah? i would be very
very very much
timotimo the amount of data transferred for this task could be drastically cut down if the logs program can just aggregate what nicks have been active (speaking, not joins/parts) in each day
ilmari similarly moving them all to be constant data that's demand paged
12:52 kalkin- left
DrForr moritz: Okay, I'll check that out tonight. I'm just curious. 12:52
ilmari samcv: perl5.git.perl.org/perl.git/blob/H...nvlists.pl is the code that generates them 12:53
samcv timotimo, atm the c code doesn't print out names properly anymore since we changed things tho 12:54
to not having a leading number and also to have a shift level. but it does generate the tables
timotimo neato 12:55
samcv uhm and the code is in snippets
timotimo maybe i'll find the motivation to implement that while you're away, would you be interested in that at all?
samcv yeah :)
timotimo cool
time for that AFK i mentioned
samcv if you want to disable shift 1 (only one implemented atm) set-shift-levels(%shift-one);
comment out the set-shift-levels part. and it'll only do base level 12:56
timotimo i'm interested in shift, though :)
samcv BBL? or maybe not for 24 hours. you will know in an hour tho
heh
well for testing.
timotimo that's fair
does it spit out the compression table for C yet?
samcv yes
that is all done
timotimo good good
samcv it was fully working before i removed the leading numbers 12:57
so if you added those back in, the code would compile and when ran print out every unicode name
timotimo is the shift table in 8bit per character or is it also base40?
samcv 8bit per char
timotimo that's probably fine
samcv well it's just strings
you can change it if you want
timotimo i see no need actually
samcv but possibly be back later 12:58
o/
timotimo o/
12:58 rurban joined, rurban left 13:00 holli_ joined
azawawi how can one solve the long Travis CI tests ? Anyone working on having a ready perl6 distro for travis ci? Most of the test time is wasted on building/testing rakudo 13:02
13:04 lukaramu joined 13:05 bjz left
brokenchicken wasted? Seems a good arrangement :) Free rakudo tests! 13:07
Just sudo apt-get install rakudo or whatever instead of building from sauce?
azawawi brokenchicken: any repo for 2016.12? 13:08
brokenchicken huggable: deb
huggable brokenchicken, CentOS and Debian Rakudo packages: github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg/releases
brokenchicken close nuf
azawawi brokenchicken++ # thanks
13:11 buggable joined, ChanServ sets mode: +v buggable 13:14 sufrostico joined
azawawi brokenchicken: github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg/issues/7 # done :) 13:14
brokenchicken it should really be automated 13:15
azawawi productive day... updated some of my Swift and Perl 6 projects :)
brokenchicken: yup
brokenchicken considering 2017.01 compiler release is days away... 2016.12 is stale :P 13:17
azawawi well it is the stable release :) 13:19
i test on stable and latest. Also on Linux, macOS (travis ci) and windows (appveyor ci) 13:20
raschipi likes stale software better.
azawawi stale is more tested :)
brokenchicken What makes it stable? :) 13:21
13:21 wamba left
brokenchicken Considering it's missing lexical loading branch, I'd say it's outdated./ 13:21
raschipi brokenchicken: It's older.
brokenchicken By that logic 2016.07 release is even more stable, yet it's broken. 13:22
azawawi brokenchicken: it is tagged and has been actually tested
13:22 geekosaur left
sammers hi #perl6 13:22
13:22 sufrostico left
azawawi sammers: hey 13:22
raschipi When I read this: "it's missing lexical loading branch", I understand this: "I can postpone rewriting my scripts a little more". 13:23
brokenchicken And I read it as "your scripts are broken" 13:24
raschipi Works for me.
sammers I am messing around with typed hash, something like this:
13:24 sufrostico joined
sammers m: my Int %h = a => 1, b => 2; say %h; 13:25
camelia rakudo-moar 4a78be: OUTPUT«{a => 1, b => 2}␤»
13:25 geekosaur joined
raschipi sufrostico is now an object hash. 13:25
timotimo raschipi: you're confusing it with my %h{Int}, i believe
raschipi I am?
sammers I have no immediate need for this, but I was wondering if it is possible to explicitly use multiple types on a hash?
moritz sammers: what do you mean by "multiple types"? 13:26
sammers like this, Int, Str %h = a => 1, b => "this is a string";
moritz sammers: you can use a common parent type, like Cool
brokenchicken m: my IntStr %h = a => 1, b => "this is a string"; say %h;
camelia rakudo-moar 4a78be: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to %h; expected IntStr but got Int (1)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
azawawi brokenchicken: so where is the proof that rakudo "latest" works for most of the modules in the Perl 6 ecosystem (vs 2016.12 for example)?
brokenchicken right
raschipi Cool %h accapts both numbers and strings
moritz sammers: or you can create your own type, like subset IntOrStr of Any where Int|Str;
azawawi brokenchicken: what's the point of testing against latest if latest is changing?
sammers ok, but what if I want to be strict about what each pair can contain? 13:27
moritz sammers: and then use that as a type constriant
sammers ah
ok, gotcha
brokenchicken m: subtest ZIntStr where Int|Str; my ZIntStr %h = a => 1, b => "this is a string"; say %h;
camelia rakudo-moar 4a78be: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Type 'ZIntStr' is not declared. Did you mean 'IntStr'?␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3ubtest ZIntStr where Int|Str; my ZIntStr7⏏5 %h = a => 1, b => "this is a string"; s␤Malformed my␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3subtest ZIntStr where Int|…»
brokenchicken m: subset ZIntStr where Int|Str; my ZIntStr %h = a => 1, b => "this is a string"; say %h;
camelia rakudo-moar 4a78be: OUTPUT«{a => 1, b => this is a string}␤»
moritz m: subset ZIntStr where Int|Str; my ZIntStr %h = a => 1.0
camelia rakudo-moar 4a78be: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to %h; expected ZIntStr but got Rat (1.0)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
brokenchicken azawawi: where's the proof that rakudo 2016.12 works with most of the modules in the Perl 6 ecosystem? 13:28
sammers moritz, thanks
moritz sammers: you're welcome 13:29
azawawi brokenchicken: Travis CI logs for 2016.12?
raschipi brokenchicken: older bugs are better than younger ones.
Sorry, Camelia. 13:30
brokenchicken azawawi: which are available for how many modules?
azawawi checks
brokenchicken azawawi: travis doesn't automagically retest all the ecosystem modules when a new release happens.
azawawi: and 2016.12 *is* latest. I don't know why you chose to arbitrarily assign "stable" label to it. 13:31
raschipi brokenchicken: because it's older.
brokenchicken There isn't even a Rakudo Star release for it. So few users actually have used it.
raschipi: older than what?
raschipi Older than HEAD. 13:32
brokenchicken heh
sammers moritz, is there a way to make sure that a is always Int and b is always Str?
azawawi brokenchicken: so 2016.12 is not stable? what's stable now?
moritz sammers: no. If you want that, use a class 13:33
sammers ok
brokenchicken azawawi: oh, we're still playing the random label game? Fine, Rakudo Star 2016.11. That's the only deliverable produced by Perl 6 team that's meant for regular users. 13:34
That's the only thing that's currently tested against a subset of ecosytem modules as part of its release cycle 13:35
And "because it's 30 days older than a random commit in github repo" is an inane argument for stability.
azawawi brokenchicken: you're right in that regard. I just checked perl6-all-modules (which is stale since Sept 2016). The latest label is 2016.08 13:36
mst brokenchicken: please stop sniping
azawawi brokenchicken: but it feels more stable lol
brokenchicken mst: OK
mst: "sniping"?
mst azawawi: what, actually, is your point here?
[Coke] we don't have a stable tag, is the short answer.
azawawi cool 13:37
mst brokenchicken: at the point at which you're saying 'random label game' and 'inane argument' we're at the point where you're too cranky to actually get anywhere useful. *I* can, sometimes, manage to be that cranky and still constructive at the same time, but (a) I'm special (b) I should still usually shut up and let somebody less cranky take over even so :P
brokenchicken mst: OK 13:38
azawawi mst: well it began here... irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2017-01-18#i_13942805 :) 13:39
brokenchicken mst++ # telling me to stfu
mst salutes the people who've done it to me over the years (rather more often than it needs saying to you, at that ;) 13:40
hrm 13:41
azawawi: can't you basically do a rakudo build, shove it ... somewhere on the web ... and wget+tar xzf it during travis startup?
I mean, it'd be a colossal hack
but if it works well enough to make your CI more useful, who cares
raschipi m: my Class H {has Int $.a is rw;has Str $.b is rw}; my $h = H.new; $h.a=6; $h.b="P6"; #sammers 13:42
camelia rakudo-moar 6ad9e0: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Type 'Class' is not declared␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3my Class7⏏5 H {has Int $.a is rw;has Str $.b is rw}␤Malformed my␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3my7⏏5 Class H {has Int $.a is rw;has Str $.b ␤␤»
mst the stable/stale thing seems to me to basically be a black hole from which neither clue nor sense was escaping ;)
raschipi m: my class H {has Int $.a is rw;has Str $.b is rw}; my $h = H.new; $h.a=6; $h.b="P6"; #sammers
camelia ( no output )
azawawi I just wanted my CI tests to be faster. That's it :)
mst yes. so I've just suggested something you could try yourself
if it works, then come and make a fuss in here and we can see if we can do a less-unofficial version of the same approach 13:43
but somebody's going to have to TIAS and you apparently already care so :D
sammers raschipi, I was just messing with hash to see if this was possible.
raschipi sammers: It's not, by design.
sammers and knowing is half the battle 13:44
azawawi mst: :)
raschipi sammers: Have you read these two: docs.perl6.org/type/Signature docs.perl6.org/type/Capture ? It's required reading. 13:48
sammers yes
unless they were updated in the last couple of months 13:49
azawawi brokenchicken: My bad regarding 2016.12. I missed that the latest rakudo star announcement is 2016.11. :) 13:50
raschipi You could match a hash against a signature to know if it complies with some expectations. 13:51
Do I have to say "smartmatch" or can it be just "match"? Do we have a non-smart way to match? 13:52
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raschipi m: my $s = :(Int :$a, Str :$b); say %(a => 1, b => "s") ~~ $s; say %(a => "a", b => "s") ~~ $s 13:58
camelia rakudo-moar 6ad9e0: OUTPUT«True␤False␤»
sammers hmm, ok, that is intersting
I was looking for somewhere in the docs that says something like "if you assign as type to a hash then all values in the hash require the same type, otherwise each value can be of different types" 14:01
something like that
but wasn't able to find it
raschipi docs.perl6.org/type/Hash#Object_ha...onstraints -> "If you would like to accept any object whatsoever in your hash, you can use Any!" 14:02
sammers yeah, close enough I guess 14:03
moritz sammers: note that even if you supply a type constraint, the values can still be of different types 14:08
as long as they are all subtypes of the type constraint you specified
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sammers ok 14:10
brokenchicken though you can make a subset that restricts that too 14:11
sammers is the where clause on subset the same as where that is used in sub guard clause? do they support the same functionality?
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moritz subset ReallyInt of Int where { .WHAT === Int } 14:11
sammers: yes
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brokenchicken m: my Int %h; %h<foo> = <42> 14:12
camelia ( no output )
brokenchicken m: subset IntOnly of Int where .WHAT =:= Int; my IntOnly %h; %h<foo> = <42>
camelia rakudo-moar 4ae08e: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to %h; expected IntOnly but got IntStr (IntStr.new(42, "42"))␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
raschipi sammers: 'where' does matching. 14:13
sammers ok, so in the case of hash subset and its where clause are applied to a single pair value. 14:14
and in the case of a sub signature, the where clause has access to all of the params in the signature.
moritz only to those declared before, I think 14:15
brokenchicken "all the params"... I think onlky the one before it
sammers ok
brokenchicken *ones
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sammers ok, so pairs. How do we specify a type on a pair? 14:50
m: my Int $p1 = :age<90>;
camelia rakudo-moar 4ae08e: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to $p1; expected Int but got Pair (:age(IntStr.new(90, "...)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
sammers m: my Pair $p1 = :age<90>;
camelia ( no output )
sammers m: my Pair $p1 = :age<90>; say $p1.age.WHAT; 14:51
camelia rakudo-moar dca05c: OUTPUT«No such method 'age' for invocant of type 'Pair'␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
sammers m: my Pair $p1 = :age<90>; say $p1<age>.WHAT; 14:52
camelia rakudo-moar dca05c: OUTPUT«(IntStr)␤»
sammers m: my IntStr $p1 = :age<90>; say $p1<age>.WHAT;
camelia rakudo-moar dca05c: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to $p1; expected IntStr but got Pair (:age(IntStr.new(90, "...)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
sammers m: my Int %h = :age<90>; say %h<age>.WHAT; 14:53
camelia rakudo-moar dca05c: OUTPUT«(IntStr)␤»
raschipi You need the interface only an assossiative variable (%sigil) has. 14:54
sammers ok, that makes sense now
brokenchicken m: my (Num :age($p)) := \(:age<90>); dd $p 14:55
camelia rakudo-moar dca05c: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding to $p; expected Num but got IntStr (IntStr.new(90, "90"))␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
brokenchicken m: my (Int :age($p)) := \(:age<90>); dd $p
camelia rakudo-moar dca05c: OUTPUT«IntStr $p = IntStr.new(90, "90")␤»
brokenchicken Oh :(
m: my Pair $p where .value ~~ Int = :age<90> 14:56
camelia ( no output )
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brokenchicken m: my Pair $p where .value ~~ Num = :age<90> 14:56
camelia rakudo-moar dca05c: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to $p; expected <anon> but got Pair (:age(IntStr.new(90, "...)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
brokenchicken there prolly a shorter way to write that
sammers m: my Pair $p where Int = :age<90>; 14:57
camelia rakudo-moar dca05c: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to $p; expected <anon> but got Pair (:age(IntStr.new(90, "...)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
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hchienjo Hello everyone. 15:00
raschipi oi
brokenchicken \o
bstamour` hi :-)
hchienjo Has anyone experienced Function 'BEFORE' needs parens to avoid gobbling block when using zef? 15:01
brokenchicken not me
buggable: eco zef
buggable brokenchicken, zef 'It's like [cpanm] wearing high heels with a tracksuit': github.com/ugexe/zef
AlexDaniel .u 👩🏽‍🚀
yoleaux U+200D ZERO WIDTH JOINER [Cf] (<control>)
U+1F469 WOMAN [So] (👩)
U+1F680 ROCKET [So] (🚀)
AlexDaniel u: 👩🏽‍🚀
unicodable6 AlexDaniel, U+1F469 WOMAN [So] (👩)
AlexDaniel, U+1F3FD EMOJI MODIFIER FITZPATRICK TYPE-4 [Sk] (🏽)
AlexDaniel, gist.github.com/ca8f990bee2631a1c9...e08166aa68
timotimo hchienjo: your version of rakudo could be too old. what does perl6 --version give you?
AlexDaniel yoleaux: 🖕 15:02
hchienjo timotimo: This is Rakudo version 2016.12-375-gdca05c2 built on MoarVM version 2016.12-113-gd1da1ba
implementing Perl 6.c
brokenchicken :o
timotimo that's recent enougn, i'd say
AlexDaniel hchienjo: yes
hchienjo: you have to update zef I think 15:03
brokenchicken Also, how do so many people end up using bleed dev versions of Rakudo :/
timotimo ... it's the best version ...
melezhik HI!
sammers m: subset PairInt where .value ~~ Int; my PairInt $p = :age<90>; say $p<age>.WHAT;
camelia rakudo-moar dca05c: OUTPUT«(IntStr)␤»
hchienjo AlexDaniel: Let me try.
AlexDaniel hchienjo: github.com/ugexe/zef/commit/1d8079...2506ae941d
raschipi o/ 15:04
brokenchicken m: enum PHASE is export <BEFORE START LIVE STOP AFTER>; when BEFORE { say "===> meow" }
camelia ( no output )
brokenchicken Ah
melezhik say I bumped a version at my module meta file and made commit, how can I see that this version is accessible at modules.perl6.org ? 15:05
raschipi Gosh, there's a book about Perl6 that recommends Atom as a text editor.
brokenchicken melezhik: the site doesn't really use any versions.
melezhik: and module installers don't use same file for versions
huggable: eco
huggable brokenchicken, nothing found
melezhik ok, let me reshape my question 15:06
AlexDaniel raschipi: it's not that unreasonable. I think its highlighting is mostly right nowadays
brokenchicken melezhik: you can look in this file. This is what panda uses when `panda update` is run: ecosystem-api.p6c.org/projects.json
raschipi It has Chrome embedded.
melezhik I bumped my version at meta file for my module, when user will be able to get new version of my module?
brokenchicken Atom rocks
AlexDaniel raschipi: what else? There's emacs and perl6-mode, it's not bad too
and that's about it 15:07
melezhik brokenchicken: thanks
brokenchicken melezhik: depends on the package manager the use and whether they run `update`
melezhik: note that both panda and zef support `install .` run in a cloned repo
melezhik brokenchicken: you answered my question
sammers night #perl6, thanks for you input 15:08
brokenchicken I guess "within a couple of hours" is a reasonable expectation; providing the user runs the update command
melezhik I don't care about `install .` , only about install/update <module-name>
yeah, I just needed a way to estimate this ...
that's ok
brokenchicken: so, ecosystem-api.p6c.org/projects.json is a source to watch at ? 15:09
brokenchicken melezhik: yeah. There's also an acompanying ecosystem-api.p6c.org/errors.json
melezhik brokenchicken: good, thank you 15:10
btw, no alerts to modules maintainers get sent in case of errors ? :)
I mean errors here - ecosystem-api.p6c.org/errors.json 15:11
it would be handy ...
hchienjo AlexDaniel: Welp! I get this when trying to install zef from source zef:ver<*>:auth<github:ugexe>:api<> already installed -->followed by a long stracktrace here 15:12
AlexDaniel hchienjo: I don't know what it means 15:13
hchienjo: all I know is that “Function 'BEFORE' needs parens” problem will go away if you manage to update zef :)
gfldex melezhik: you could write your own meta package and asked travis to build it once a week. If there are problems for zef to fetch and build your modules, travis sends you a mail. 15:14
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Geth cosystem: 2883f05c81 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | META.list
s/META.info/META6.json/
 15:15
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hchienjo Well, weird thing is, panda uninstall zef throws an exception of its own Type check failed in binding to $repo-id; expected Str but got Nil (Nil) 15:17
AlexDaniel: I highly suspect these problems are the price for living on the bleeding edge :(
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AlexDaniel hchienjo: I use rakudobrew for that, usually it works fine 15:17
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AlexDaniel if it doesn't, I throw it all out and start from scratch :) 15:18
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brokenchicken hchienjo: zef --force install zef 15:18
melezhik: that's a bit out of scope of the current ecosystem. Considering the majority of errors are due to GitHub connectivity and are temporary.
hmmm
Wonder what happened with geth not announcing ecosystem commit :/
Ah "Lag: 271" I see :(
hchienjo AlexDaniel: That's what I use too. Let me give it a try.
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brokenchicken weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 15:19
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hchienjo brokenchicken: The installed zef can't even run, it croaks with this error. Function 'BEFORE' needs parens to avoid gobbling block 15:19
brokenchicken hchienjo: oh, right 15:20
timotimo what was my last message before i dropped out?
oh i can just irclog
brokenchicken timotimo: "timotimo │ ... it's the best version ..."
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hchienjo timotimo: 'It's the best version' 15:21
timotimo 161745 timotimo │ wait a minute ... panda has an uninstall command?!
161755 timotimo │ AlexDaniel: i believe rakudobrew has a "nuke" command
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timotimo 161222 timotimo │ yeah you just need to put --force after zef 15:22
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timotimo that seems to somehow have dropped too 15:22
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brokenchicken hchienjo: cd $(mktemp -d); git clone github.com/ugexe/zef.git .; perl6 -Ilib bin/zef install . 15:22
unless you already nuked something :) 15:23
timotimo yo uprobably also need --force
brokenchicken A yeah, and --force
ugexe `rakudobrew self-upgrade && rakudobrew build zef` should also work (it will use --force now)
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brokenchicken hchienjo: cd $(mktemp -d); git clone github.com/ugexe/zef.git .; perl6 -Ilib bin/zef --force install . 15:23
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ugexe see: github.com/tadzik/rakudobrew/commi...f2c1b1c602 15:23
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hchienjo ugexe: Thanks. Let me take a look. 15:24
timotimo: I'll give it a shot.
timotimo good luck!
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hchienjo brokenchicken: Hovering over the .rakudobrew folder... 15:25
brokenchicken hchienjo: people who use packages meant for users and not core hackers (rakudo.org/downloads/star/) usually don't have these problems ;) 15:26
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ugexe hchienjo: and I suspect most core hackers that use it also don't upgrade existing rakudo installations but merely add new ones (or nuke whatever they want to replace/update and then re-add it fresh) 15:28
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[Coke] That's how I use rakudobrew; just create a new moar and reinstall all the modules I need. 15:29
brokenchicken has update-perl6 is aliased to `rm -fr ~/.zef; rm -fr ~/.perl6; rm -fr ~/.rakudobrew/; git clone github.com/tadzik/rakudobrew ~/.rakudobrew; rakudobrew build moar; rakudobrew build zef; \
[Coke] s/moar/rakudo-moar/
brokenchicken zef --/test install Inline::Perl5 DBIish Test::When Test::Notice Test::META Pretty::Topic File::Find IO::Socket::SSL HTTP::UserAgent URI::Escape HTTP::Tinyish \
Grammar::Tracer Config::From HTML::Entity Lingua::Conjunction Data::Dump IRC::TextColor JSON::Tiny HTTP::Server::Tiny URI::Encode'
oops
damn, and I accidentally ran it just long enough right now that it nuked .zef and prolly parts of .rakudobrew :( 15:30
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brokenchicken cries and adds a timer... 15:30
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jdv79 nine: gist.github.com/anonymous/3a766c44...df73a2b9f5 15:38
I'm gonna guess its something about 5.24.1
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nine jdv79: did you re-install Inline::Perl5 after upgrading perl? 15:40
jdv79 i was in the process 15:41
thats what broke
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jdv79 building a 5.24.0 now to test 15:42
brokenchicken I got 5.24.0 on my server and Inline::Perl5 installed fine
(like 3 minutes ago; on HEAD rakudo) 15:43
nine I'd bet it tries to load the wrong libperl
jdv79 i had 5.24.0 and it was working but all of the sudden i got the error about -Dusemultiplicity
so i uninstalled 5.24.0 and installed 5.14.1 as such
*24
hmm
brokenchicken I perlbrewed mine with -Duseshrplib and -Dusemultiplicity 15:44
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jdv79 i'm gonna guess running time was never a consideration in the p5 test suite;) 15:54
brokenchicken :)
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nine jdv79: perlbrew install has a --notest switch :) 15:56
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jdv79 i guess its a habbit to let testsuites run in perl land 16:00
finally finished
ilmari jdv79: my 5yo workstation runs all the perl5 tests in 4min
jdv79 my 4yo laptop does not 16:03
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ilmari my new laptop does the whole build/test/install in about 5min 16:03
jdv79 ok, i'm at about 15m
abraxxa sorry I have been in meetings, did someone fix a backend services required by panda and zef because boths' update command works now
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moritz at least for panda, yes 16:04
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jdv79 aw c'mon. same error. 16:06
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abraxxa timotimo: thanks for fixing modules.perl6.org (read the backlog) 16:10
brokenchicken What was wrong with it BTW?
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jdv79 nine: installed fine manually but failed unde zef 16:12
weird ^H
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holli_ sometimes i put a slice of cheese on my head and pretend i am a sandwich 16:21
hchienjo ugexe: I manually ran [Coke]'s bash alias and things are working fine now. Thanks everyone who has helped. Really appreciated.
holli_ oops. wrong channel 16:22
brokenchicken holli_: you still do that? I'd figured you'd get bored of doing that by now. 16:23
Try a slice of ham instead. Mix it up a bit.
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pmurias brokenchicken: rakudo.org/downloads tells users that the simples way of building rakudo from source is to use rakudobrew 16:25
[Coke] I had a bash alias?
:)
holli_ i tried mixing. turns out it's super hard to get peanut butter out of rasta curls 16:26
brokenchicken pmurias: yup. And we have a ticket for it: rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id...et-history 16:27
holli_: hah :D
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raschipi Did you guys see the new Mozilla brand? 17:08
Almost as good as Perl6, I think.
pmurias camelia seems vastly superior to the ugly Mozilla pinkness 17:10
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holli_ no brand (in a tech context) can possibly be worse than this childish overly colorful butterfly 17:12
brokenchicken holli_: what about Go's gopher?
holli_ googles 17:13
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holli_ i stand corrected 17:13
brokenchicken raschipi: so what is it?
holli_: :)
raschipi blog.mozilla.org/opendesign/arrival/ 17:14
holli_: What about a Camel and an Onion?
brokenchicken cringes at that type clash >_< 17:15
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brokenchicken raschipi: I'd say it's worse than Perl 6. While we fail with colour, the logo itself isn't bad. 17:16
While mozilla's one is the result of an hour long marketing meeting and someone going "hey, you know how fedex logo got an arrow in it! Let's do something like that.. wait! the "ill" could be like ://" 17:18
raschipi We should ask the folks at opensourcedesign.net/ if they would give us some help.
brokenchicken And then someone's kid typed it up in Photoshop and changed the :// part to Italics :)
s/changed.+//
heh
raschipi: do we need help? 17:19
raschipi Withg the colors.
gfldex Many years ago TimToady asked to be stopped … err … asked for help with the Perl 6 mascot. None of you raised any hands. Now stop whining.
brokenchicken I thought we embraced the logo as a cultural hack
raschipi s/Withg/With/
I do, I like the logo and I like the colors.
You're the one that said we fail in the colors.
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raschipi I quite like what Mozilla came up with too. 17:20
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brokenchicken raschipi: yeah we do. That's why so many people say it sucks. But I didn't say we should change it. 17:20
raschipi I see. Embracing the ugly hacks, I see. 17:21
ugexe we need a perl6 logo roast that counts anything passing as a valid perl6 logo implementation
brokenchicken haha
IIRC the logo on perl6.org links to an archived email that actually does qualify as that 17:22
The main criterion is the new logo needs to make TimToady just as happy :P
dylanwh there are already three bugs filed to register moz:// as a protocol hanlder 17:23
and people asking if we submitted a proposal to IANA.
brokenchicken heh 17:24
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cale2 Anyone here tried Exercism.io ? 17:25
There's some perl6 challenges there, but I can't figure out how to solve them.
raschipi brokenchicken: I'm aware of the discussion you're referencing, but it isn't in the linked text in perl6.org.
cale2 It just gives you a challenge.t file
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brokenchicken raschipi: I've no idea of that discussion... I see the linked text states the requirementys in in "Highlights of the discussion": raw.githubusercontent.com/perl6/mu...amelia.txt 17:26
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brokenchicken cale2: that's the extension of test files; I'd guess the challenge is to make it pass all tests 17:27
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brokenchicken "There is a test script included with the exercise; a file with the extension .t. Run the test script for the exercise by running perl6 with the test file as an argument. e.g. perl6 example.t." 17:28
cale2 brokenchicken: where do you put your code to solve the challenge then? Inside the .t file?
Or you make a new file and somehow include it in the .t file?
raschipi The test file expects your code to be in a file with a specifi name in the same directory. Look at the test file to see what that name is. 17:29
brokenchicken cale2: which one are you doing? 17:30
cale2 the first one. bob
where does it specify what the name of the file should be? 17:31
brokenchicken It says "exercism fetch perl6 bob" what's that do? Does it fetdch all the fiels for you?
cale2 yes. it gets the .t file and the readme
brokenchicken It specifies my $module = %*ENV<EXERCISM> ?? 'Example' !! 'Bob';
use-ok $module;
require ::($module) <Bob>;
cale2 the .t file has two lines
brokenchicken So unless you got EXERCISM set, use Bob.pm6
cale2 my $module = %*ENV<EXERCISM> ?? 'Example' !! 'Bob'; 17:32
what does that do
brokenchicken cale2: if EXERCISM env var is set to a truthy value, it uses "Example" as module name and if it ain't, uses "Bob" as module name 17:33
And I see it's use lib expects the test file to be in a dir below the module
cale2: use Bob.pm6 create class Bob {} in it; and if the test file is in the same directory, you can run it with perl6 -I. test.t
or.... prove -e 'perl6 -I.' -vlr test.t 17:34
it's purtier
cale2 lordy lordy.... 17:35
brokenchicken heh
Submit a patch :)
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brokenchicken cale2: well, Option B: remove lines 7, 8, and 9 in the test file and instead stick class Bob {} there :) 17:36
And just use one file
perl6 test.t (or prove -e 'perl6' -vlr test.t for purty colours)
cale2 brokenchicken: The annoying thing is that in order to do any of the challenges, you have to learn a bunch of finicky tricks like you just said. Not very beginner friendly 17:38
ttt is that the challenge?
there doesn't seem to be much /more/ to it than that 17:39
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cale2 For example, I need to read about the difference between .pl6 and .pm6 files. Then I need to do a full tutorial in how .t files work 17:39
.t files are a world apart from common testing systems like you see with ruby/python/node
yoleaux cale2: Sorry, I don't know what timezone that is. If in doubt, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tz_d...time_zones for a list of options.
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raschipi "common testing systems" What? They all copied Perl's testing system. 17:41
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ttt Is there a certain person or couple of people who do the bulk of perl6 infrastructure sysadmin work? 17:42
cale2 raschipi: I've never seen a test file like that before.
17:42 ttt is now known as teatime 17:43 Ven joined
brokenchicken cale2: well, what would be the alternative? 17:43
cale2: other than the fact that it doesn't tell you what file to write the code in, the instructions are pretty basic.
Put code in file. Run perl6 test.t
Yes, I told you a bunch of tricks to make stuff easier/prettier, but they're not a necessity 17:44
teatime: like what
teatime like maintaining whatever is hosting perl6.org, for example
and I think you guys have at least one CI system setup, etc. 17:45
cale2 brokenchicken: Other languages fetch 3 files for you. The test file, the readme, and the actual module that the test file is linked to. The module has the basics sketched out for you. 17:46
brokenchicken "When you're logged in, you can say exercism fetch perl6 to get the next available exercise on the track." <-- I'd assume that actually fetches the proper files for you, so you don't even need to figure out stuff
cale2: what does perl6 version fetch?
cale2 test file and readme
brokenchicken :(
that's certainly LTA
cale2 So for a beginner, it's like, how do I go about even making the module
brokenchicken right
cale2 brokenchicken: the added bonus of including the module is that you can teach beginners some best practices about organization 17:47
brokenchicken cale2: make a file called Bob.pm6 in it write class Bob { } inside and then start adding methods to it
Maybe try to find whoever made those lessons and ask them to add more user-friendly files 17:48
cale2 exercism.io/languages/perl6/contribute
Ok, I'll look into that.
brokenchicken teatime: I got access to those systems. What did you need?
cale2: github.com/exercism/xperl6/issues/75 17:51
cale2 I just made an issue as well :D 17:54
brokenchicken heh
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cale2 didn't mean to double up on the issue. just both had the same idea 17:57
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haxmeister just perused the perl6 docs again .. I must say in the last couple years the docs have improved extensively and the language looks beautiful. Hats off to a job well done, I think I'll start learning it now.. it seems very ready 18:09
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gfldex tyvm 18:09
cale2 haxmeister: I'm waiting for some books to come out, which should be soon. There is a print one, but no ebooks yet 18:11
[Coke] haxmeister: thank you for the kind feedback. If you do find any issues, please feel free to let us know.
18:13 nightfrog is now known as culb
gfldex haxmeister: please asked if you believe there is a hole in the docs. Most of the holes I plugged started as questions in this channel. 18:13
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haxmeister and wow.. what nice responses.. the beautifully friendly perl community is definitely back strong.. I'll go through some tuts probably this weekend, just went through some lisp books and am surprised at how much perl6 takes from lisp.. all the best stuff! 18:15
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raschipi I like the FAQ answer about Perl6 being Lisp in disguise: (not (not Nil)) 18:19
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brokenchicken \o/ 18:27
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brokenchicken Hard to imagine them raising $2,500,000/year considering a giant like Wikipedia pulls $75m 18:37
Called it! www.generosity.com/community-fundr...-s-encrypt
51% of goal reached
I mean irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2016-11-01#i_13498808 called it :) 18:38
mst $100k is still a decent chunk of change towards making LE awesome
brokenchicken Yeah :) And on reddit they said this wasn't their primary funding source anyway 18:39
raschipi They have strong backing from the other CAs. The industry doesn't want to do the small stuff that's barely lucrative, but they need to make TLS pervasive to force the big clients to make use of it. LE is part of a plan to mark everything that doesn't use TLS as 'insecure', so that everything will need it. Big cash for the CAs, selling certs to everyone that can't for some reason use LE. 18:42
brokenchicken heh 18:44
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brokenchicken But they do do small stuff. We paid like $100/year for a cert 18:44
No point now, of course.
raschipi They do, but there's not much money on it. 18:45
mspo anvaka.github.io/common-words/#?lang=pl
raschipi When browsers change the padlock symbol to a broken red padlock on every connection that doesn't use TLS, then they'll be rolling in the dough. Backing LE was a requirement from browser vendors to do it. 18:47
mspo is ___ a perl5 thing? 18:49
hartenfels mspo: A triple underscore has no special meaning in Perl 5. 18:50
mspo weird
brokenchicken mspo: where do you see the ___ tho? I only see the _ in the list
heh nice list for ruby: anvaka.github.io/common-words/#?lang=rb 18:51
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brokenchicken oh, if you click on it, it shows code 18:53
Looks like someone likes to use ___ as a heredoc marker
mspo brokenchicken: scroll down a bit
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mspo oh that would actually look pretty nice 18:53
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perlpilot was mildly hoping that zooming in would reveal more of a fractal nature 18:57
brokenchicken m: say q:to/📝/␤Yey, Unicode!␤📝
camelia rakudo-moar 35a3c0: OUTPUT«Yey, Unicode!␤␤»
brokenchicken No _that's_ a nice heredoc marker :*
*Now 18:59
m: say q:to/🙆‍♀️/␤awesome␤🙆‍♀️ 19:00
camelia rakudo-moar 35a3c0: OUTPUT«awesome␤␤»
raschipi The most common thing after 'import' in python is 're'. 19:01
brokenchicken m: say q:to"\c[woman gesturing OK]"␤awesome␤🙆‍♀️ 19:02
camelia rakudo-moar 35a3c0: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Ending delimiter \c[woman gesturing OK] not found␤at <tmp>:3␤------> 3🙆‍♀️7⏏5<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ whitespace␤»
DrForr Grumble. I spent 3 hours fixing the here-doc test case in Perl6::Parser on Sunday, still have to get it to handle multiple heredocs per line.
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brokenchicken heh... multiple heredocs per line.. 19:02
.oO( multiple heredocs per line... interpolating multiple here docs per line! )
 19:03
DrForr say q:to[END],q:to[END]; # ...
brokenchicken Yeah, I know them; I'm still amused we support them :)= 19:04
omg... 19:05
what I said actually works...
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brokenchicken m: gist.github.com/zoffixznet/0c3c79b...b98e75b12b 19:08
camelia rakudo-moar 35a3c0: OUTPUT«Hey, dawg I heard you liked heredocs so here's a heredoc in a heredoc ␤»
brokenchicken hahaha. This is the most obscene thing I ever coded. 19:09
DrForr Mind if I use that as a test case? :)
brokenchicken Go for it :) 19:10
DrForr Dank u wel.
brokenchicken I'm not following why there are two spaces between "Hey," and "dawg"
m: gist.github.com/zoffixznet/f0eb8ee...b6904fe28b
camelia rakudo-moar 35a3c0: OUTPUT«("Hey,", " dawg I heard you", "liked heredocs so here's", "a heredoc in a", "heredoc", "", "", "").Seq␤»
brokenchicken hm, a trimming bug?
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brokenchicken .tell samcv I found an atom highlighter bug, the qq:// doesn't get highlighted right :P gist.github.com/zoffixznet/f0eb8ee...b6904fe28b 19:11
yoleaux brokenchicken: I'll pass your message to samcv.
DrForr Thanks. I'll use it later after I've buttoned down the rest of the stuff. 19:12
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brokenchicken Ah. No bugs. I'm giving it a 2-item list by accident 19:14
raschipi It's a bug in the programmer. 19:17
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perlpilot Most bugs are in programmers 19:21
brokenchicken OMG! You can use them all on the same indent if you use different deliomiter haha 19:25
m: gist.github.com/zoffixznet/4793f10...1cecf1c6aa 19:26
camelia rakudo-moar 35a3c0: OUTPUT«Hey, dawg! I heard you liked heredocs so here's a couple of heredocs interpolated in a couple of heredocs␤»
perlpilot Why would your choice of delimiter preclude using them on the same indent? 19:27
brokenchicken oh 19:29
I guess it doesn't
But for a second I thought I could have them out of order....
raschipi u: 📝
unicodable6 raschipi, U+1F4DD MEMO [So] (📝)
brokenchicken m: gist.github.com/zoffixznet/ef31bd7...bb64e222dd 19:31
camelia rakudo-moar 35a3c0: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5===␤Ending delimiter ♥ not found␤at <tmp>:10␤------> 3<BOL>7⏏5<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ whitespace␤Other potential difficulties:␤ Asked to remove 8 spaces, but the shortest indent is 0 spaces␤ at <tmp>…»
brokenchicken Like this would've printed "this is heredoc sort"
I guess I can't have it all..
.oO( but one day... maybe in Perl 7... )
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perlpilot brokenchicken: I think you'd need a new bit of syntax, but you could probably do it in Perl 6. something like: put .words given multi-here-doc(<😂 🙆‍♀️ ♥ 📝>); ... 19:39
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raschipi perlpilot, brokenchicken: Macros can't get here soon enough, then. Can't be without this. 19:41
cale2 Interesting to see the most starred perl6 github repos 19:43
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raschipi link? 19:43
cale2 github.com/search?l=&o=desc&am...=%E2%9C%93
perlpilot yeah, macros are the only "big piece" of Perl 6 still missing from Rakudo. But there's quite a bit you can do without them even still.
cale2 Plack was re-written in prl6?
perlpilot Besides ... there's always EVAL ;-)
brokenchicken m: say "\c[woman health worker: dark skin tone]\c[woman factory worker: medium-dark skin tone]\c[man technologist: medium-light skin tone]" 19:44
camelia rakudo-moar 35a3c0: OUTPUT«👩🏿‍⚕️👩🏾‍🏭👨🏼‍💻␤»
brokenchicken is impressed
m: say "\c[family: man, man, boy, boy]" 19:45
camelia rakudo-moar 35a3c0: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Unrecognized character name family: man␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3say "\c[family: man7⏏5, man, boy, boy]"␤»
brokenchicken hmmm
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brokenchicken m: say "\c[couple with heart]" 19:45
camelia rakudo-moar 35a3c0: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Unrecognized character name couple with heart␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3say "\c[couple with heart7⏏5]"␤»
brokenchicken guess those ain't part of it yet
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raschipi cale2: It's just the specs repo that is marked Perl6. It contains mostly pod. 19:47
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brokenchicken m: NFC.new("\c[man walking]".NFC).say 20:01
camelia rakudo-moar 35a3c0: OUTPUT«Cannot create an NFD directly␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
brokenchicken
.oO( NFD? )
How can I modify individual .NFC items and then put it back as a Str?
m: "\c[man walking]".NFC[0] = 42
camelia rakudo-moar 35a3c0: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable Int␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
brokenchicken like something like that
m: Uni.new("\c[man walking]".NFC).say
camelia rakudo-moar 35a3c0: OUTPUT«This representation (VMArray) cannot unbox to a native int (for type NFC)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
brokenchicken m: Uni.new(|"\c[man walking]".NFC).Str.say 20:02
camelia rakudo-moar 35a3c0: OUTPUT«🚶‍♂️␤»
brokenchicken Ah, k
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brokenchicken m: Uni.new("\c[man walking]".NFC.Array.&{.[2]:=.[2]-2;$_}).Str.say 20:12
camelia rakudo-moar ae050f: OUTPUT«🚶‍♀️␤»
brokenchicken neat
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brokenchicken m: say EVAL '\c[' ~ 'man bouncing ball' ~ ']': 20:17
camelia rakudo-moar ae050f: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /home/camelia/EVAL_0␤Undeclared routines:␤ ball used at line 1. Did you mean 'all'?␤ bouncing used at line 1␤ c used at line 1␤ man used at line 1. Did you mean 'max', 'tan', 'min', 'map'?␤␤»
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brokenchicken routine ball? what'sittalking aboot? 20:17
m: say EVAL ('\c[' ~ 'man bouncing ball' ~ ']'): 20:18
camelia rakudo-moar ae050f: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling /home/camelia/EVAL_0␤Undeclared routines:␤ ball used at line 1. Did you mean 'all'?␤ bouncing used at line 1␤ c used at line 1␤ man used at line 1. Did you mean 'max', 'tan', 'min', 'map'?␤␤»
hartenfels You don't have quotes around your \c[...].
brokenchicken weird
Ah. Thanks.
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SmokeMachine u: 😀 20:29
unicodable6 SmokeMachine, U+1F600 GRINNING FACE [So] (😀)
SmokeMachine u: 😊 20:30
unicodable6 SmokeMachine, U+1F60A SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES [So] (😊)
SmokeMachine u: 🙂 20:31
unicodable6 SmokeMachine, U+1F642 SLIGHTLY SMILING FACE [So] (🙂)
timotimo nobody told cale2 that github tends to think perl code is perl6 even when it's perl5? 20:34
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cale2 timotimo: I figured github went off of the file endings rather than trying to parse syntax 20:38
timotimo oh, you returned, good
the key to the mystery is called "linguist"
i think it lives under github.com/github/linguist
brokenchicken cale2: it can't really do that. Perl 6 and Perl 5 and something else all use .t files 20:43
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awwaiid cale2: maybe you already know, but there is some discussion at github.com/perl6/doc/issues/167 20:58
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mr_ron docs: In Perl 6 regexes, | does LTM, which decides which alternation wins an ambiguous match based off of a set of rules, rather than about which was written first. docs.perl6.org/language/5to6-nutsh...lternation 21:12
"set of rules"? is it just longest alternative match, Am I missing something or does rewriting belong as part of issue 1141 github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1141 ? 21:14
awwaiid cale2: also, github.com/github/linguist/blob/ma...cs.rb#L328
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SmokeMachine u: ⋃ 21:15
unicodable6 SmokeMachine, U+0020 SPACE [Zs] ( )
SmokeMachine, U+22C3 N-ARY UNION [Sm] (⋃)
RabidGravy I dunno, gh thinks that Term::ReadKey is C++ 21:16
awwaiid mr_ron: yes, afaict you are correct and it can be simplified
SmokeMachine c: ∪
u: ∪
unicodable6 SmokeMachine, U+222A UNION [Sm] (∪)
mr_ron awwaiid: thanks will add to issue soon ... 21:17
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agentzh p6: my $a = [1, 2]; my Array of Int $r = $a; 21:45
camelia rakudo-moar 93b0ff: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to $r; expected Array[Int] but got Array ($[1, 2])␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
agentzh could anyone help me with this "Array of Int" type constraint?
sorry if it's a FAQ. 21:46
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timotimo you have to assign into that array in order for it to work 21:48
m: my $a = [1, 2]; my Array of Int $r .= new(); @$r = $a; say $r
camelia rakudo-moar 93b0ff: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to ; expected Int but got Array ($[1, 2])␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
timotimo oh, there's a bug
(just the name being wrong)
m: my $a = [1, 2]; my Array of Int $r .= new(); @$r = @$a; say $r
camelia rakudo-moar 93b0ff: OUTPUT«[1 2]␤»
timotimo there we go, agentzh
agentzh timotimo: ah, thanks 21:49
timotimo: because i'm using it in a class attribute, really, can i avoid initializing an empty array to it? 21:50
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timotimo no, but you can just have "has Array of Int $.foo = Array[Int].new()" 21:51
and it'll initialize it for you
(but only if you don't have a custom BUILD submethod)
(but you can just use TWEAK in that case) 21:52
agentzh timotimo: i see. thanks!
timotimo the reason why you have to "@$r =" in the code above is because when there's a listy thing on the LHS of the =, it'll do list assignment, and otherwise it'll do item assignment 21:53
so if you just $r = something, it'll replace whatever was in $r before
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timotimo but if you @$r = something, it'll put stuff into the array that's in $r 21:53
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timotimo and the reason why you have to have "@$a" on the RHS is that otherwise you'll be trying to put a single item into the array of ints that's an array itself 21:54
so it'll complain that it wanted an Int, but it got Array instead
and the reason why you can assign an Array into an Array of Int variable is because assigning an array into an array will iterate over the RHS array and put individual items into the array on the LHS
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timotimo at that point the types will match up (wants Int, gets Int) 21:55
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agentzh timotimo: i hoped that it would work with Array references as well so that i can avoid array copying when constructing the object. 21:58
timotimo: i'm coming from the Moose/Type::Tiny world, so i've already got used to Array[...] type constraints on array refs ;) 21:59
timotimo you can't put an Array into a variable that's typed Array[Int] 22:00
agentzh can i have something like an ArrayRef[Int] here? *grin*
this limitation looks a little bit strange to me :) 22:01
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agentzh timotimo: anyway, thanks for your help. i'll live with has Array[MyStmt] @.stmts; for now. 22:02
timotimo you can just assign the array if you type it correctly
m: my Array of Int $foo; my Array of Int $bar = Array[Int].new(1, 2, 3, 4); $foo = $bar; dd $foo; $bar[2] = 99; dd $foo 22:03
camelia rakudo-moar 76f14a: OUTPUT«Array[Int] $foo = Array[Int].new(1, 2, 3, 4)␤Array[Int] $foo = Array[Int].new(1, 2, 99, 4)␤»
timotimo see?
but if you don't create an Array[Int], it won't let you assign to a variable or attribute that you've typed Array[Int]
ugexe gfldex: the problem your facing is essentially "why does `perl6 -I../my-dep/lib -e 'shell q|perl6 -Mmy-dep -e0|'` not find my-dep?" 22:04
the dependency is fulfilled by -I../some/path 22:05
timotimo so use PERL6LIB instead of -I
ugexe if someone is inclined to sure, but thats not the correct action for zef to take
timotimo oh 22:06
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timotimo agentzh: ack? 22:08
agentzh timotimo: i see. thanks! 22:09
ugexe the problem is in a Build.pm he is doing `run $has-dependency-from-meta6`. zef has supplied the dependencies to Build.pm (via -I) but the run statement needs to handle getting those into its new process itself (setting -I or PERL6LIB itself from my @include = $*REPO.repo-chain.map(*.path-spec))
timotimo btw, you don't have to spell out Array[Int].new if you just use a @-sigiled variable 22:10
gfldex ugexe: I use `'-I' «~« @include` instead of a map. Somehow more pleasing to the eyes. 22:20
There must be quite a few trivial .map that could be replaced by a «~«
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agentzh m: my Array[Int] @a; push @a, 32; 22:26
camelia rakudo-moar 99b186: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to @a; expected Array[Int] but got Int (32)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
agentzh timotimo: any ideas on this? ;) 22:27
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agentzh m: my Array[Int] @a; push @a, Int.new(32); 22:27
camelia rakudo-moar 99b186: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to @a; expected Array[Int] but got Int (32)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
timotimo m: my Array[Int] @a; @a.push(32)
camelia rakudo-moar 99b186: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to @a; expected Array[Int] but got Int (32)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
timotimo oh, of course
m: my Array[Int] @a .= new(); @a.push(32)
camelia rakudo-moar 99b186: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to @a; expected Array[Int] but got Int (32)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
timotimo um ... 22:28
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timotimo oh 22:28
sorry, i'm distracted by videos
"my Array[Int] @a" defines you want an array of arrays of int
then you give it an int instead of an array of ints
and so it complains
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timotimo m: my Int @a .= new(); @a.push(32) 22:28
camelia ( no output )
timotimo there you go
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moritz haxmeister: you said earlier there is no ebook about Perl 6 yet. Let me plug leanpub.com/perl6 where you can buy an ebook right now. It's work in progress, but you get updates for free once you purchased it 22:30
</plug>
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kalkin- hi #perl6 22:31
hartenfels Good * kalkin. 22:32
kalkin- I'm looking at IO::Socket::INET code right now and trying to figure out where the DNS stuff is happening
background: I'm need to resolve a specific SRV and I wanted to find out how Rakudo/MoarVM knows which local DNS server to use 22:33
s/I'm/I/g 22:34
timotimo it just uses libuv's resolver i believe
agentzh timotimo: awesome! appreciate it! 22:35
kalkin- timotimo: moarvm? (I don't see any code for it in rakudo)
timotimo yep, moarvm
kalkin- timotimo: thanks 22:36
agentzh timotimo: my code finally works. thanks! 22:37
timotimo: i was about to abandon type constraints ;)
timotimo: you saved my day.
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agentzh does anyone know if Perl 6 grammar parser supports automatic error reporting on parse failures? 22:39
like an error message saying "expecting token blah, but found xxxx"? 22:40
timotimo it does not
rakudo built that itself
agentzh timotimo: yeah, i noted that in the rakudo parser.
timotimo it's unfortunately not re-usable, i don't think
agentzh timotimo: does perl 6 grammar support line number and column number calculations out of the box?
or do i have to compute that info myself in perl 6?
timotimo it does not
however, you may be able to reuse the mechanism in HLL::Compiler 22:41
too distracted with stuff to write up something
but it's not so terribly hard to do, though. split on \n, calculate prefix sum, and presto
well, binary search through that prefix sum list
agentzh timotimo: is HLL::Compiler supposed to be used by perl 6 users? 22:42
timotimo hmm
perhaps not
agentzh timotimo: yeah, just wondering if perl 6 already provides such bells and whistles :) 22:43
hartenfels I had a similar problem recently, and got at the correct line number via $/.orig and $/.from.
agentzh they are common features in parsing frameworks like Parse::RecDescent and Pegex.
AlexDaniel yea, it's not too hard to do it yourself
hartenfels Where the former is the parsed text and the latter is the position it bailed out at.
agentzh hartenfels: aye, that's what i'll have to do.
timotimo sounds like there ought to be something in the ecosystem
agentzh *nod* 22:44
not hard, just tedious and not very beautiful.
hartenfels This being the code for it, and for putting a ⏏ between before() and after() github.com/hartenfels/LambdaDL/blo...m6#L13-L15 22:45
agentzh hartenfels: great! thanks!
agentzh looks at LambdaDL. 22:46
hartenfels I don't think it's anything interesting to look at, at least not in the larval stage it is in right now. 22:48
kalkin- doesn't windows have an equivalent of resolv.conf? I thought at some point they had some file with this name in different folder
kalkin- is thinking about just parsing resolv.conf to cheat around getting DNS server
hartenfels kalkin-: the HOSTS file?
kalkin- hartenfels: does HOSTS file do on windows the same as resolv.conf? Not the same what linux hosts does? 22:49
timotimo it's just called hosts 22:50
it lives in a folder called "etc"
(no-one knows why!"
kalkin- so there is an actual C://etc/hosts path on Windows? o_O
hartenfels kalkin-: that might be true, somehow that just came to mind as the place to mess up people's resolution.
timotimo not directly under C 22:51
it's buried rather deep under Windows
brokenchicken kalkin-: c:\windows\system32\drivers\etc\hosts
kalkin- brokenchicken: thanks!
timotimo "deep" 22:52
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kalkin- is guessing windows specifics over irc 22:52
or I will just let people who use windows make a PR if the want to use such a weird system :) 22:53
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brokenchicken kalkin-: or rather in %systemroot%\system32\drivers\etc\hosts 22:53
kalkin- or I could hardcode 8.8.8.8 for windows 22:54
brokenchicken heh
I recall MS provided a free dev version of windows; run it in a VM and do it right. 22:56
kalkin- brokenchicken: right good idea, thanks! 22:57
btw i figured on linux/unix i can just use NativeCall with resolv.h
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timotimo a google image search suggests that "footgun" is a move for inline skating 23:05
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brokenchicken lulz 23:05
xyz_ In Perl 6, do the keys of Hash or Map must be of Str type? If so is there an associative container which allows me to specify both the key type and the value type? 23:06
brokenchicken m: my %h{Any} = 42 => 72; %h.keys[0].^name.say
camelia rakudo-moar a5cac9: OUTPUT«Int␤»
brokenchicken You can use whatever you want instead of Any
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hartenfels xyz_: docs about that are here I think docs.perl6.org/type/Hash#Object_ha...onstraints 23:07
brokenchicken m: my Int %h{Int} = 42 => 72; dd %h
camelia rakudo-moar a5cac9: OUTPUT«Hash[Int,Int] %h = (my Int %{Int} = 42 => 72)␤»
gfldex m: my %h{*}; say %h.of
camelia rakudo-moar a5cac9: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
brokenchicken m: my Int %h{Int} = 42e0 => 72e-; dd %h
camelia rakudo-moar a5cac9: OUTPUT«5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Confused␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3my Int %h{Int} = 42e0 => 727⏏5e-; dd %h␤»
brokenchicken m: my Int %h{Int} = 42e0 => 72e0; dd %h
camelia rakudo-moar a5cac9: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding to key; expected Int but got Num (42e0)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
brokenchicken xyz_: ^ and this way you can specify types of both keys and values
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xyz_ It looks like without reading the documentation, just by looking at the class definition of Hash I wouldn't know I could sepcify two type parameters. 23:10
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brokenchicken That's why we have documentation ;) 23:11
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brokenchicken m: my $h = Hash[Int,Num].new; $h{42e0} = 42 23:13
camelia ( no output )
brokenchicken m: my $h = Hash[Int,Num].new; $h{42} = 42
camelia rakudo-moar a5cac9: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding to key; expected Num but got Int (42)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
xyz_ brokenchicken: I get that...is there a way to programatically extract the type parameter information of a class? For example how many type parameters you can speciy? 23:14
gfldex m: my Int %h{*}; say %h.keyof 23:15
camelia rakudo-moar a5cac9: OUTPUT«(Whatever)␤»
brokenchicken m: my Int %h{*}; say %h.of
camelia rakudo-moar a5cac9: OUTPUT«(Int)␤»
brokenchicken so yeah
xyz_: I dont think you can do this thing on just any class. IIRC this stuff is provided to Hash by roles... like Associative for .of 23:16
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xyz_ brokenchicken: Looking at Associative.pm, the role has only one type parameter, which I guess is the value type. Where does Hash get its key type parameter? 23:19
gfldex the role is TypedHash
github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/...sh.pm#L454
brokenchicken Thanks 23:21
xyz_ gfldex: That's highly magical, but thanks! :-)
gfldex xyz_: it's not. Look for method ^parameterize. It's just a mixin. 23:22
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xyz_ gfldex: I feel like ^parameterize is where the magic is... 23:37
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