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Set by lizmat on 22 May 2021.
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raydiak tonyo: I find your lack of compromise distrubing. You implied that I knew nothing about the meta files beyond the search I linked, for no apparent reason. Now you're telling me that I'm changing the argument to win, which appears to be what you just did prior, while I am simply trying to address your stated concerns. Understand this VERY clearly: I am not having an argument, I'm actually trying actively to 09:43
avoid such a thing. My ego has no need for your validation or anybody elses. If I just wanted to feel right regardless of actual fact, I simply wouldn't bother to talk about it. I am exploring an idea space, not having a flashback to debate class. If I misunderstood what you were saying then I am sorry, maybe we are simply communicating on very different levels. But I am trying the very best I know how, to 09:44
address both my concerns and the opposite concerns of others including yourself, all simultaneously, which is an enormous task. I wish you had more respect for that position. From this point forward, I would appreciate it if we could keep this discussion pointed at the facts instead of the individuals. I'm not here to posture and sabre-rattle and if these dicussions have to be made into arguments which
culminate in personal attacks, I will drop the whole thing entirely and keep my ideas to myself and my own compiler work outside of Raku in the future.
The rest I will review and respond to tomorrow depending on the content of the backlog between now and then. Goodnight.
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Geth rakudo: 2efe4302c5 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core.c/Any-iterable-methods.pm6
IterateOneWithPhasers handles empty iterators 20% faster

By letting .new return the Empty iterator if the first pull fails.
Example code: my @a; for @a { NEXT Nil }		 10:29
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Geth rakudo: 7f5f60e851 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core.c/Any-iterable-methods.pm6
Remove Slip thinko

The source iterator may produce Slips, but they will be passed as such to the block, so we shouldn't be checking for this here.		 10:46
nqp/new-disp: 32e2ad0262 | (Jonathan Worthington)++ | 2 files
Replace use of smart-intify with a dispatcher

And along the way, tweak the smart-strify dispatcher to use some new more efficient ops for checking for unboxability.		 11:03
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Geth nqp/new-disp: 1d632aea49 | (Jonathan Worthington)++ | 2 files
Replace use of smart-numify with a dispatcher
 12:18
rakudo/new-disp: 305d2708a4 | (Jonathan Worthington)++ | t/02-rakudo/99-misc.t
Correct a test relying on a changed impl detail

Prior to new-disp, mutliple dispatch worked by doing a trial bind of the signature of a multi candidate containing a `where` clause. If it passed then the candidate would be invoked "for real". This means that `where` clauess would get evaluated twice on a successful candidate.
... (10 more lines)		 12:19
rakudo/new-disp: ffede8cc0b | (Jonathan Worthington)++ | src/vm/moar/dispatchers.nqp
Fix multi dispatch of a Proxy to an `is rw` param
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Geth nqp/new-disp: 0d7f899d37 | (Jonathan Worthington)++ | src/vm/moar/QAST/QASTRegexCompilerMAST.nqp
Fix compilation of regex Unicode property tests
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rakudo/new-disp: 9cd6395f80 | (Jonathan Worthington)++ | src/vm/moar/dispatchers.nqp
Add a missing type guard installation

When we do a multiple dispatch on a native reference, make sure to add a type guard. If not, future dispatches will incorrectly end up using that candidate.
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Geth rakudo/new-disp: 0a563aaeff | (Jonathan Worthington)++ | src/core.c/Metamodel/Primitives.pm6
Mark types created by MOP primitives as Raku types

So that method dispatch on the will work out.		 14:32
rakudo/new-disp: 7152630f93 | (Jonathan Worthington)++ | src/vm/moar/dispatchers.nqp
Fix X::Method::InvalidQualifier reporting
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[Tux] Rakudo v2021.06-72-g7f5f60e85 (v6.d) on MoarVM 2021.06-17-g736154d29
csv-ip5xs0.844 - 0.904
csv-ip5xs-208.782 - 8.896
csv-parser28.295 - 29.037
csv-test-xs-200.385 - 0.395
test7.873 - 8.303
test-t1.986 - 2.111
test-t --race0.901 - 0.931
test-t-2035.512 - 35.764
test-t-20 --race10.815 - 11.373
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Geth rakudo/new-disp: ded9a56141 | (Jonathan Worthington)++ | src/vm/moar/dispatchers.nqp
Ensure proxy readers are marked as thunks

Somewhat unfortunately this means we have to get rid of the blocks we prepare ahead of time because there's no way to get those marked as thunks. More unfortunately, this breaks the reproducible builds test
  (although in a sense this is good, since less trivial programs would
have had problems with build reproducibility and we'd not have known about it so soon).
This is needed so that they get skipped when walking the call chain.		 15:29
raydiak tonyo: While I still see valid concerns in my assessment a few hours ago, my statement was more pointed and less tactful than it could have been. I should have slept on it. I have frustrations with the state of raku and its community, which are making me more sensitive than I ought to be. Please accept my apologies. I should probably just take a good long break. 15:31
ugexe i hope you are able to funnel your frustrations into the change you wish to see. frustration fueled the start of my larger involvement in raku and contributing to it 15:42
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Geth nqp/new-disp: a0a1aad66f | (Jonathan Worthington)++ | src/HLL/sprintf.nqp
Fix the sprintf fix

It's meant to pass the array value along to the panic. Not doing so means there's a string instead of an array in the hash Rakudo gets, and then it fails when trying to construct an exception object.		 16:19
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raydiak It would be good to put a positive spin on it, I agree. It's just that if I'm starting to point that frustration at other people, I hesitate to further involve myself here. There isn't anything that matters to me more than people and their feelings. And some things I really don't see myself as having much control over. Community policies and attitudes, things like that. Then I circle back and ask myself if 16:45
it's really just my own attitude which needs adjustment.
ugexe its unfortunate you would need the backing and knowledge of individuals whojaded to this specific area 17:16
over the all the years
but i will help however i can
tonyo raydiak: you're fine, we both want to make it better and i'm fine with the tone of the conversation - i didn't take any offense 17:27
differing ideas and discussion, be it sometimes heated, are how you make things better 17:29
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raydiak tonyo: thank you very much for your grace. I try very hard to be gentle to people and don't easily forgive myself when I fail at that, so you being so cool does my heart good 17:33
ugexe: I really appreciate that. One of my complaints has been that I've floated a few of these test ballons over the past several months, looking at things which seem like they really obviously ought to change, and it has felt like I just can't get the backing or concensus for any change to be effected even if I were to do the work. So your support means a great deal to me 17:34
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raydiak anyway, I will circle this back around to the technical discussion we were having originally at some point today. my attention is a bit divided atm 17:51
bartolin raydiak: probably not something that could help with the things that frustrate you, but I'd like to mention that a couple of weeks (?) ago I was happy to see you being more active here. For me the friendly and inspiring people around #perl6 (back in the day) were (and are) even more important than the language itself. And you were one of those ;) 17:52
tonyo raydiak: not a big deal. i've been told i'm kind of prickly anyway. in my mind the next step for fez is doing test matrices and making those data available with the modules 17:54
the difficult part in that is making sure from native can grab the correct packages 17:55
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MasterDuke i haven't followed the details of the discussions very closely because it's a part of the codebase i have no experience with, but is this the sort of thing where a PR showing more concretely what's intended would help? 18:00
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Geth rakudo/new-disp: 43c8b3a4bc | (Stefan Seifert)++ | src/vm/moar/dispatchers.nqp
Fix wrappers of protos not getting called

The optimization to not call an onlystar proto did not take into account that the proto may be wrapped. In that case we must not just call the candidate directly.		 18:38
raydiak bartolin: that's very kind of you, thank you. if you're saying my presence is generally a good thing, it at least gives me something to consider before distancing myself. that's all I'm really aiming for is to make my presence constructive 18:51
timo i haven't been active in here for a long while, but i was always happy to see raydiak in here 18:55
raydiak tonyo: so do you see any way to accomplish that in a way which is agnostic from any one tool or ecosystem? forget all my previous speculation, maybe the final solution is nothing like what I started out imagining. but how can we have a formal and tested meta spec under the control of the community as a whole?
Geth roast: 94857d4fda | (Christian Bartolomäus)++ | integration/gather-with-loops.t
[JVM] Unfudge tests for gather/last and for loop

This started to pass with commit d8281722db.
I'd guess the return (which was removed with said commit) led to the UnwindException.		 18:56
bartolin meh, d8281722db was a commit for Rakudo -- I should have used a link :( 18:57
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raydiak timo! I haven't ran in to you since I came back, only noticed you once or twice in the backlog. thank you for you kindness :) I miss seeing you around here 18:58
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timo that is pleasant to hear :) 18:59
raydiak MasterDuke: yes I agree an implementation would help. ugexe suggested the same thing yesterday. I guess I just thought we should settle a little more on what it might look like before I actually write it because as we discuss, my idea of what "it" would exactly be and where it might live has shifted quite a bit 19:01
Xliff I miss timo, too! 19:17
MasterDuke
.oO(i miss timo, two == timotimo)
 19:21
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Geth rakudo: patrickbkr++ created pull request #4453:
Build: Tidy and improve cleanup rules		 19:30
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ugexe no need for an actual implementation really. just mocking out the interface and commenting/documenting it would do the trick 19:35
github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/7f5f...pm6#L1-L18
github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/mast...pm6#L1-L59
these are good examples
raydiak got it. I'm just uncertain at this point if we can actually agree on a fully functional implementation along the lines of what I originally envisioned, or if we should be looking more at writing a collection of META files to test parsers and an official validator to test serializers and aim to put all that in some repo in the raku org, or if there is some other option that might be more to everyones liking 19:43
that we haven't conceived of yet
but I suppose you're right, we have somewhat talked in circles about it for long enough that some code of some sort would be helpful at this point 19:44
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ugexe something on master seems to have broken zen 20:29
zef
labeled next without loop construct
Geth roast: 4389ed40d0 | (Christian Bartolomäus)++ | integration/gather-with-loops.t
Remove no longer needed canary test

Should have been removed with the previous commit 94857d4fda.
ugexe github.com/ugexe/zef/blob/ef2157c7...umod#L1174 20:47
thats the only labeled loop zef uses
gist.github.com/ugexe/874293a9aa20...831eacf7e5 here is the --ll-exception output 20:48
bartolin ugexe: I'd suspect github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d8281722db. (It changed the behaviour for gather + for + take + last on the JVM backend -- and you have gather + for + take + next there.) 20:50
ugexe ill check 20:51
bartolin ugexe: at what point does zef explode? (I just tried to clone and install zef with Rakudo's current HEAD (7f5f60e851) and that seemed to work.)
ugexe its definitely a specific scenario... 90% of zefs CI tests pass
it blows up trying to find a dependency 20:52
that or resolving the dependency graph
bartolin I see. so more than a plain 'bin/zef install . && bin/zef help' ... 20:53
ugexe yeah appears to be anything that has dependencies it blows up after it finds them 20:54
reverting d8281722db fixes the regression 20:57
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Geth rakudo: 271b64f0d9 | (Nick Logan)++ | src/core.c/Any-iterable-methods.pm6
Revert "Rework IterateOneWithoutPhaser.push-all a bit"

This reverts commit d8281722dbf86c3e58378579ca076b8fe3a89fa3.
The reverted commit causes a regression in zef		 22:32
ugexe strange though i cant figure out how to golf it 23:08
m: my $foo := eager gather DEPSPEC: for ^5 -> $e { for ^5 -> $f { take $f; take $_ for |(0 .. $f); next DEPSPEC; } }; say $foo
camelia (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0)
ugexe i figured that would have tripped it but it doesnt 23:10
ah it goes away with MVM_SPESH_DISABLE=1 23:38
so that probably explains why i cannot golf it 23:39
ah can golf it now 23:41
loop { my $includes := eager gather DEPSPEC: for ^5 -> $e { for ^5 -> $f { if 1 { take $f; take $_ for |(0 .. $f); next DEPSPEC; } } }; } 23:42
(just shove it in a loop)
loop { MYLABEL: eager gather for ^5 { for ^5 { next MYLABEL } } } 23:44
that one works even without disabling spesh heh
cause its not correct 🤦 23:45
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ugexe MVM_SPESH_DISABLE=1 raku -e 'loop { eager gather MYLABEL: for ^5 { for ^5 { next MYLABEL } } }' # works 23:47
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ugexe raku -e 'loop { eager gather MYLABEL: for ^5 { for ^5 { next MYLABEL } } }' # does not work 23:47
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