Documentation Channel for #raku | This channel is logged | Roadmap: github.com/raku/doc/wiki
Set by [Coke] on 23 May 2022.
[Coke] getting many bounces in email thread from liz@dijkmat.nl 01:30
or, delays, technically
looks like getting this working on windows is not a great option atm. 02:05
I'll fix some of the easy issues I opened if I get a working checkout on mac. 02:10
working as in "usable clone", not "buildable project"
08:44 sena_kun joined 15:16 NemokoschKiwi joined
[Coke] added a go live milestone to help set priority for doc-website 15:17
NemokoschKiwi Something changed again under the hood... 15:20
so, what will be the new doc site, after all? 15:21
[Coke] github.com/Raku/doc-website 15:23
added a "cleanup" milestone for things that can be done after go live; categorized most open issues. 15:24
NemokoschKiwi so this is not Oleksandr's site, after all? 15:25
[Coke] nope. I am as surpised as anyone else. 15:26
NemokoschKiwi Who pulls out these decisions, really?
[Coke] it's very similar UI (needs some work to finalize) and a different tech stack to process the raw POD into the site. (module called Collection) 15:27
NemokoschKiwi I mean, I don't really have an opinion on the decision itself - other than we have apparently wasted precious time and effort on it, including the expectations and all
But that these decisions are made by god-knows-whom, behind three curtains, is VERY disheartening
[Coke] this was basically Altai-man and finanalyst
I hear your concern. This discussion happened across an email chain with several interested parties, and several Raku github repos issues. 15:29
but all contributing parties were involved by the time the decision was made.
If you want to help, we can get you access to the WIP site and you can open issues on the git repo. 15:30
NemokoschKiwi These concerns bring us back to, you know, acting on someone's own behalf, like an owner 15:31
Hearing about the templating created by Moritz... well, other than CIAvash creating a whole independent site, I'm working on *moving away* from mowyw, at least 15:32
because somebody (I don't know who) says "we are used to it" - to the contrary, from what I can see, nobody bothered to do anything with that site, including basic maintenance of content 15:33
I swear I wouldn't bother with this "rant format" - if decisions weren't made the way they apparently are 15:34
[Coke] maybe you can find a way to contribute that isn't ranting about it. 15:38
There are a concrete list of issues for getting the new site in place now, we have infra people working on it. all forward progress. 15:43
both main contributors to the new site are engaged, which is a positive I wasn't expecting. 15:44
NemokoschKiwi I always find ways to contribute, for what I can tell, the problem is rather that some problems are never addressed 16:14
and because of obfuscated management and communication, there is no other choice than to either rant about it, or accept it for good
for me, these are things I cannot accept for good
[Coke] if all you're going to do is rant, it's definitely not helping or inspiring me to do a better job. So, maybe consider how to improve your messaging to encourage people to address the issues you're seeing. 16:37
esp. when your timingis immediately upon finding out that progress is being made.
I definitely feel your frustration, having had similiar issues with others previously. 16:38
Geth doc: jmaslak++ created pull request #4185:
throws-like does not work correctly a string for the exception name		 17:44
NemokoschKiwi again, I don't think all I have been doing is rant, and there is this saying "facts are stubborn things"... 17:59
they don't care who says them or if anybody says them at all 18:01
I'm also happy that Oleksandr and Richard returned, and I would also be really happy if there were proper and actually used channels for communication. I don't think anybody could say I haven't been trying in this regard - anyway, why should this be about me anyway. 18:05
lizmat indeed 18:06
NemokoschKiwi Let's just recognize for the time being that it's nearly impossible to achieve anything with invisible management from behind the scenes, to the point that even the volunteering lead of a work group has no knowledge of the decisions being made
this is an issue of utmost priority, regardless who says it or if anybody says it out loud at all 18:07
lizmat FWIW, if we would have had invisible management, we would have had a new doc site over a year ago
NemokoschKiwi as opposed to no management, yes 18:25
but you also cannot say that some bikeshedding stopped the progress, there were simply no discussions that could have mattered in any regard
also, as much as it is visible, we are still in the same position as we were months ago. There are some apparent decisions being made, they are not put into action. We used to think the website had been decided fair and square and we were just waiting for it to be deployed. As long as the new site doesn't manifest, I wouldn't trust these decisions 18:31
to last anymore.
18:33 NemokoschKiwi left
sena_kun well, the decision we had was done "over the head" of finanalyst and his work. there was like 2 years long argument, originating from him working on his backend generator and using it to re-create the old website looking like a potato. Not being aware of this I "fixed" Documentable/Pod::To::HTML and suggested my UI which was not so potato. 18:38
this, of course, put a lot of pressure on finanalyst, because he felt like his work is not appreciated if it's not used to generate the docs website htmls 18:39
I did not want the website to look potato but with a new better(tm) backend cause users don't give a damn about it, but about bugs 18:40
I also don't believe his views of presenting the website like a bunch of HTML files on the disk (if I understand is correctly ofc) will lead us into a better future, because you loose things like easy to define and understand redirects. 18:42
the situation also put some pressure of me, because my work was also "indirectly" thrown away in case his work will be used
but over the years I just stopped caring about the sunk cost of me spending my time on improving Documentable/Pod::To::HTML, really 18:44
18:45 Nemokosch joined
sena_kun so when he came and said "Ok, so I put up your non-potato UI on my backend, here is the demo". I thought it's a perfect compromise for everyone: finanalyst doesn't feel betrayed by the community (well, I hope), the users got the new UI, and things about dynamic rendering of pages - c'mon, it's childish to care about tech-y things like that. I also don't feel any remorse about Documentable or what I did 18:46
patrickb I do acknowledge that Altai-man and finanalyst are the people that have the authority to decide how to go forward, given each of these two implemented a new docs website. I am happy to see both of them on board going forward.
Nemokosch well, this is not so optimistic when we are making progress, you know :kappa:
sena_kun Nemokosch, sorry, you just missed some explanatory bits, so you'll need to go to the logs website if you want to know more. : )
Nemokosch I don't think I did 18:47
sena_kun and believe me, the absolutely sudden "oh, so here is the demo, I started to integrate the UI into collection" was a 100% surprise to me too, given we had discussions about doing so last summer
Nemokosch the big "explanatory bits" were lost somewhere else, namely who made this decision, when, where and how, under what considerations and all this jazz 18:48
sena_kun aha, I see
well, give me a minute
Nemokosch inb4 not because "I want to know it" but because these would be of common interest, at least within the people involved in the documentation in any way 18:49
sena_kun I did the decision, on 18th Jan (when Richard posted the "OgdenWebb / Altai-man site now working with Collection" email). It has happened in the documentation mailing list. How - swiftly, it took some days to mention the big change in the direction to everyone involved 18:51
Nemokosch that much I can see, lol
sena_kun and the reasons for the decision to be so is because it effectively resolved the absolute shitshow (sorry) we had with two websites none working. 18:52
Nemokosch Fair enough
I'd even say assuming that it does actually work, it was the right decision 18:53
sena_kun yes, absolutely 18:54
I hope Richard will be quick to resolve all the problems, I see some were already resolved
Nemokosch I mean, motivation is definitely a key factor for these things 18:55
sena_kun yes
Nemokosch it's just there can be different conclusions we can draw from this recognition 18:56
let's say, we are happy that there is progress with the doc site, you feel no sorrow, Richard is back on track, so far so good 18:57
say, 5 people know and acknowledge this
sena_kun yup
Nemokosch after some hassle on IRC (and mailing lists, idk)
sena_kun yup
well, that's the problem with information, it spreads quickly, but has no reliable delivery 18:58
Nemokosch what I fail to see is how this is a sustainable way of getting things done. We are only a few all added up, there are kind of in-fights, and we often have no knowledge about each other's work or responsibilites 18:59
sena_kun I don't want to distract the talk writing how it's impossible to just "automatically update" all the people who are related to all the decisions and details behind them. god I wish we had this, the world would be a completely different place
Nemokosch And this is when I ask: is this were we are *steered* to?
sena_kun Nemokosch, hmmmm 19:00
Nemokosch I stopped opening problem solving issues simply because it seems nobody reads them anyway, or at least wouldn't give even a reat
react
but my ultimate issue would be: "the steering council is not steering" 19:01
sena_kun how do you see a development model then, as a cathedral?
coleman Nemokosch: all you do is rant philosophically. Stop it. 19:02
Participate on concrete issues or just be quiet, please
Nemokosch This is not philosophical whatsoever
You are welcome to take a look around on github
read and respond to issues
sena_kun Nemokosch, so? 19:04
sorry if you're typing, hate irc for that 19:05
Nemokosch what do you mean?
sena_kun I asked the question regarding how do you see a development model of the project
Nemokosch I wanted to say that I sent coleman a letter with at least 10 governing questions about infra, said it was all reasonable and pretty much only that. Now the same person says that I only rant philosophically. Like come on... 19:06
coleman You only sent that email after I asked you to stop ranting on irc
You have have good ideas AND still be a jerk 19:07
sena_kun Nemokosch, are you avoiding the question?
coleman So stop being a jerk and maybe we'll take you more seiously
Nemokosch sena_kun: I think the steering council *could* work, it just doesn't live up to its potential
the problem doesn't lie within the model
coleman: I would have thought that when you DO see that I am actually doing stuff, you would stop with this narrative. At the end of the day, you didn't provide much of an answer. 19:08
sena_kun Nemokosch, no, it's about the model. when a small number of high motivated people is, in a managed manner, develops things, it's one model. raku is and I believe historically was ( lizmat? ) developed as bazaar, where people just come, implement something, go and the cycle continues (it includes the chaotic alignment) 19:09
Nemokosch sena_kun: the Problem-solving repo itself used to work - at least to some extent. Then, from what I can tell - you probably know it better - people with the knowledge and the influence decided that it's just not worth it, and sent it to the trash bin 19:10
now the de-facto steering council is only lizmat
and I'd say lizmat is also more gladly a developer than a manager
sena_kun I don't want to, erm, defend what's happening by saying "it's just the model we're in", but it's a slightly different talk then 19:11
Nemokosch the manager role basically died down 1. after the removal of AlexDaniel 2. eventually by JJ gradually stepping down
> where people just come, implement something, go and the cycle continues (it includes the chaotic alignment) 19:13
this is a different discussion indeed but I have no idea how this could even work, the way things are currently
also, it just genuinely doesn't account for non-technical manners
... like documentation also is, partially
sena_kun the approach worked for decades for different projects, no? 19:14
Nemokosch I honestly have no idea. If you do have good examples, please bring them up 19:15
coleman [Coke]: who had Op on this channel? 19:16
sena_kun Nemokosch, gnu software?
Nemokosch Do you think Raku as a topic/goal/macroverse is similar to pieces of gnu? 19:18
sena_kun we have so many tickets now I cannot find the one with voting for the Run button
coleman Please take this into a DM folks
Nemokosch it was under Raku/doc, no? 19:19
sena_kun coleman, sorry to bother you
Nemokosch github.com/Raku/doc/issues/4182
if this was valid? 19:20
coleman I share your concerns; I'm going to find a way to containerize whatever are on Raku/doc Raku/doc-website etc 19:21
sena_kun yup, that's it, thanks
19:35 Nemokosch left 19:37 ChanServ sets mode: +o coleman
lizmat coleman ^^ 19:37
coleman We won't know whether content will need to be restructured until several people can build the new site. I'll open a new issue if I find anything. 19:49
Thanks, liz 19:51
20:29 coleman sets mode: +o [Coke] 20:58 sena_kun left 21:07 Geth left, Geth joined, Geth left 21:08 Geth joined 22:07 Geth left 22:08 Geth joined 22:12 Geth left, Geth joined

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