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Set by lizmat on 25 August 2021.
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Voldenet Bscan: cool vscode support, as an improvement consider using nqp::getcomp('Raku').compile for massive performance boost and some additional checks 00:19
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Bscan🍺 Thanks voldenet! I'll take a look at getcomp. Additional checks (or symbol information) would certainly be nice. The Perl Navigator has Perl::Critic and inspects the symbol table for various features, so I'm certainly looking for additional sources of information for the Raku version. 00:51
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melezhik .tell patrickb sparkyci did see your new commits in DevelExecRunerGenerator, I restarted the daemon and new build succeded - sparrowhub.io:2222/report/346 , I am working on SparkyCI stability ... 01:47
tellable6 melezhik, I'll pass your message to patrickb
melezhik .tell SmokeMachine - thanks! I will think about badges , first I want to make SparkyCI works stable ... but yeah I agree badges would be convenient ... 01:48
tellable6 melezhik, I'll pass your message to SmokeMachine
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Nemokosch > <Voldenet> m: my @sth = <this>; given @sth { $_ = "this won't work" }; say @sth 08:15
well, why does this not work?
and what does this have to do with "immutable values" anyway 08:16
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MasterDuke weekly: marketplace.visualstudio.com/items...-navigator 08:19
notable6 MasterDuke, Noted! (weekly)
Nemokosch > <Voldenet> m: my @sth = <this>; given @sth { @_ = "it also works" }; say @sth
this also doesn't work as one can see by the input but I wouldn't have expected this to work anyway
there is no hint that @_ would exist as a topic variable so no surprise that it is indeed not a topic variable
aaah, yet another example that sigils were a mistake 08:24
if you assign the same arrays to a scalar container, it works flawlessly
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grondilu m: say 0x<aa ff> 09:01
camelia ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Confused
at <tmp>:1
------> say 0⏏x<aa ff>
grondilu m: say :16<aa ff>
camelia ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Malformed radix number
at <tmp>:1
------> say :16<aa⏏ ff>
expecting any of:
number in radix notation
grondilu thought one of these would work
m: say <aa ff>.map({:16($_)}) # feels verbose 09:03
camelia (170 255)
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grondilu m: say blob8.new: <aa ff>.map({:16($_)}) 09:04
camelia Blob[uint8]:0x<AA FF>
grondilu in the output here the 0x<.. .. ...> notation is used
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Nemokosch what is the goal? 09:05
grondilu to make list of integer from their hex representation
integer*s* 09:06
Nemokosch I don't think you can just pass a list instead of a number 🤔 09:07
tbh this feels just like passing a sequence of values instead of a value to any function 09:08
if you have two numbers, why not just write them? (0xaa, 0xff) 09:12
and if you have an indefinite number of values, resorting to some literal syntax isn't a good idea anyway 09:13
grondilu often blobs on the web are displayed as a sequence of bytes in hex. It would be convenient to be able to paste that and turn it into the relevant raku code easily. 09:53
like for test vectors in crypto
Nemokosch well you can stick to the "verbose" solution, although at that point I'd rather use a whatever curry 09:56
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Nemokosch m: dd <beef cab>.map(*.&parse-base: 16) 09:57
camelia (48879, 3243).Seq
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grondilu m: dd <beef cab>>>.&parse-base: 16 09:59
camelia (48879, 3243)
grondilu works, but still verbose IMHO 10:00
it is better than .map({:16($_)}), though
Nemokosch well if you want something shorter, define it for yourself, this is Raku after all 10:03
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Nemokosch m: sub hex(@nums) { @nums>>.&parse-base: 16 } dd hex <beef cab> 10:04
camelia ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Strange text after block (missing semicolon or comma?)
at <tmp>:1
------> b hex(@nums) { @nums>>.&parse-base: 16 }⏏ dd hex <beef cab>
expecting any of:
infix
infix…
Nemokosch oh okay
m: sub hex(@nums) { @nums>>.&parse-base: 16 }; dd hex <beef cab>
camelia (48879, 3243)
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Nemokosch you could define an operator as well ofc but that may not work in REPL 10:07
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Geth doc: a6177bce97 | (Peter du Marchie van Voorthuysen)++ | 3 files
Document X::Cannot::Empty
 10:55
doc: 159c26ca3e | (Peter du Marchie van Voorthuysen)++ | doc/Type/X/Cannot/Empty.pod6
Add example of failing with X::Cannot::Empty
doc: 199e96b00c | Altai-man++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | 3 files
Merge pull request #4070 from dumarchie/master

Document X::Cannot::Empty
linkable6 Link: docs.raku.org/type/X::Cannot::Empty
problem-solving: e5b8cbf16d | (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | .github/CODEOWNERS
Remove self as owner of that section

I can no longer claim responsibility for the documentation repo *de facto*. It's only sensible to remove myself from here too.		 11:08
problem-solving: 894e41f708 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | .github/CODEOWNERS
Fix formatting in CODEOWNERS
 11:09
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El_Che what does JJ's commit mean? 12:02
lizmat It means he's relinquishing final responsibility for the Raku documentation 12:07
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lizmat and that we need someone else to take that responsibility :-) 12:21
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El_Che oh, sad 12:45
lizmat afk for a few hours, the sun is shining :-) & 12:59
Nemokosch 😂 13:00
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[Coke] ... trying to use raku to run the equiv of "start google.com" from a raku script. I suspect I might need to actually launch 'cmd' and pass args; anyone done this? (windows, obvs.) 13:17
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japhb Oh there has *got* to be a more direct way than indirecting via cmd ... but if I ever knew it, it has faded from my memory 13:18
[Coke] eh. I can make this a shell script (it's small and dumb and start works there.) 13:20
Nemokosch the windows nerds 13:26
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[Coke] (windows nerds) it's probably worse that I wrote something intended to be used under 'git bash' only on windows. 13:59
but at least now I have my "open this list of ticket numbers in bug tracking that's listed in someone's excel file". which I was working on the script instead of looking at the tickets, because... yak shaving.
this 30 minutes will definitely save me 10m later. 14:00
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melezhik SmokeMachine: patrickb sparkyci won't trigger new builds in few hours, I will fix this once I get an access to my laptop ... 14:01
japhb Time well spent
tellable6 hey melezhik, you have a message: gist.github.com/7580851da811ceb7b0...09facb849d
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Nemokosch at the end of the day, it's good to know that Raku stuff actually works on Windows 🙂 14:13
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[Coke] Use it every day for devops/scripty things. 14:29
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Nemokosch Does map put its argument(s) into Scalar containers? 15:30
[Coke] m: my \a = 3; my @a=[\a,3]; @a.map({$_.VAR.say}) 15:35
camelia \(3)
3
Nemokosch from all I see, @two-dimensional-array.map(* Z <1 2 3>) doesn't work as intended
and @two-dimensional-array.map(*.List Z <1 2 3>) does 15:36
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Nemokosch m: [[1,2], [3,4]].map(*.raku.say); 15:39
camelia $[1, 2]
$[3, 4]
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[Coke] m: my @a=(1,2;3,4); @a.map({dd $_, @$_}) 15:40
camelia List @a = $(1, 2)
(1, 2)
List @a = $(3, 4)
(3, 4)
Nemokosch what I particularly don't get is... what is this, if it's apparently not a List/Array? 15:42
because *.List or *.Array fixes it
[Coke] dd: ($(1,2)).WHAT 15:44
m: dd: ($(1,2)).WHAT
camelia ( no output )
[Coke] m: ($(1,2)).WHAT.say
camelia (List)
[Coke] m: say $(1,2).elems; say (1,2).elems
camelia 2
2
[Coke] m: my $a = $(1,2); my @a = $(1,2); dd $a, @a 15:46
camelia List $a = $(1, 2)
Array @a = [(1, 2),]
[Coke] Sorry, I should have tested more of those "off screen" first. 15:48
Nemokosch The difference between types and containers is fuzzy at times 15:51
Like okay, map treats the argument as a scalar 15:52
but then what do .Array and .List do that turns this scalar into a positional container, whatever the name is 15:53
it's even inconsistent at times: Z and X do pay attention to this "scalarness", hyper and even reduce don't 16:00
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Geth ¦ problem-solving: lizmat assigned to codesections Issue Taking responsibility for Raku Documentation issues github.com/Raku/problem-solving/issues/324 16:38
¦ problem-solving: lizmat unassigned from codesections Issue Taking responsibility for Raku Documentation issues github.com/Raku/problem-solving/issues/324
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lizmat and yet another Rakudo Weekly News hits the Net: rakudoweekly.blog/2022/05/02/2022-18-period/ 16:59
CIAvash I think that's happening because `map` is capturing everything. And those are items. 17:16
m: my (|c) := [[1,2],[3,4]]; dd c
camelia \($[1, 2], $[3, 4])
CIAvash so, if they are items, they need to be decontainerized: 17:17
gfldex lizmat: I did not know that I can start the REPL like that. Are there any spec tests? :->
CIAvash m: say [[1,2],[3,4]].map: *<> Z <1 2 3>
camelia (((1 1) (2 2)) ((3 1) (4 2)))
lizmat gfldex: I don't think so...
and it's going to be pretty tricky perhaps to write tests for that? 17:18
hmmm... I guess it could be part of the normal repl tests.... hmmm
gfldex :-> ← that's my "I'm-being-cheeky-face"
CIAvash And that's happening because Arrays have containers. Lists don't 17:22
m: say ((1,2),(3,4)).map: * Z <1 2 3>
camelia (((1 1) (2 2)) ((3 1) (4 2)))
Nemokosch Okay but then why does even *.Array fix the containerisation? 17:24
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CIAvash Because the `item` becomes an `Array`? 17:31
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Nemokosch it was an Array though? 17:33
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Nemokosch m: dd [[1, 2], [3,4]].map({ .WHAT }) 17:34
camelia (Array, Array).Seq
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Nemokosch m: dd  [[1, 2], [3,4]].map({ $_ Z [5, 6] }) #doesn't work 17:35
camelia ((($[1, 2], 5),).Seq, (($[3, 4], 5),).Seq).Seq
Nemokosch dd: [[1, 2], [3,4]].map({ .Array Z [5, 6] }) #does work
m dd: [[1, 2], [3,4]].map({ .Array Z [5, 6] }) #does work
almost, damn
m: dd [[1, 2], [3,4]].map({ .Array Z [5, 6] }) #does work 17:36
camelia (((1, 5), (2, 6)).Seq, ((3, 5), (4, 6)).Seq).Seq
CIAvash actually it's not related to map, it's just Arrays having containers
m: my @a = [[1,2], [3,4]]; say @a[0].raku
camelia $[1, 2]
CIAvash it's itemized Array 17:37
Nemokosch anyway, it's not often desirable and rather confusing
some stuff cares about type, including the reduce and hyper meta-operators 17:38
some stuff cares about containers, like foreach and zip
CIAvash m: say [1,2] Z [3,4]; say $[1,2] Z [3,4] # like this
camelia ((1 3) (2 4))
(([1 2] 3))
Nemokosch and it feels very quirky that I take an array that is itemized for some reason, convert it to an Array and suddenly it is containerized properly 17:40
this takes me back to yesterday
if you set a @-sigilled variable to the topic variable, you cannot assign to it because Rakudo will claim it's "immutable"
I've spent like half a year with Raku scripts, I've watched lizmat's presentation about sigils and still, most WAT's I come across are with sigil-dependent stuff and containerisation 17:42
I saw in your examples that zen-slicing changed the behavior, I would say that's a clear-looking solution; I don't know what it did or where this is described but it seems like the cleanest solution 17:44
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CIAvash maybe those functions you used that don't care about containers, are probably not `nodal`? docs.raku.org/routine/is%20nodal 17:46
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Nemokosch I would also really like a working example of `nodal` with some non-method 17:48
with an infix hyper, even
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but I don't think this is related to that map-zip example I've given 17:50
Anyway, I'm reaching the point where I should probably collect my concerns about the whole containerisation stuff and make a post to Reddit
This map-zip stuff is something that I think we can sort out and I will eventually understand 17:51
CIAvash no, I mentioned nodal because you mentioned hyper-operators
Nemokosch but @variables as topic being immutable is an annoyance and the infamous (@a, @b) = (@b, @a) is plain satanic in my opinion 17:52
CIAvash m: say [[1,2],[3,4]].map: -> @a { @a Z <1 2 3> } # another way to change containers
camelia (((1 1) (2 2)) ((3 1) (4 2)))
CIAvash m: say [[1,2],[3,4]].map: -> $a { $a Z <1 2 3> } # same thing happening to $_ 17:53
camelia ((([1 2] 1)) (([3 4] 1)))
Nemokosch yes, I know this one; once I started suspecting that map takes scalar items, I expected this to work 17:54
or @$_ to work (also does)
but I wondered if there is a clean way to change it within a whatever curry 17:55
CIAvash Can you give an example for "but @variables as topic being immutable"
the clean way is either using `List`s or using `<>`. 17:56
Nemokosch *.List and *.Array work but I find them confusing - in fact I still don't really know why they change the containerisation and how this fits into the big picture
so yeah, so far I like *<> the most
or *[]
perhaps I could have used lists, I think it seemed easier to generate the data as an array 17:57
anyway, you know 17:58
so apparently it works as expected if the outer dimension is a List
perhaps there can be a logical framework around this
but I ask myself the question - who will remember nuances like that, among mortal users? 17:59
CIAvash I think Arrays have containers so you can modify them, unlike Lists. Then there is flattening, iterating, ... docs.raku.org/language/containers 18:00
Nemokosch Lists still aren't immutable enough to be hashable, for example
okay, so this is the implication of (shallow) immutability 18:02
(personally I also don't think the type hierarchy helps here, i.e Arrays descending from Lists)
I'll have to study this part thoroughly 18:03
CIAvash If I'm not mistaken codesections is working on the immutability issue 18:04
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Nemokosch Anyway, let me show you the two increasingly annoying things 18:04
And there are ValueLists that are hashable (or some related implication of deep immutability); they will be built in from 6.e from what I know 18:05
That's good news for sure
Nemokosch so here's one:
m: my @array = <1 2 3>; $_ = <4 5 6> given @array; 18:06
camelia Cannot assign to an immutable value
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
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Nemokosch of course if I type out @array, it will work 18:06
I don't know of an easy workaround for the left handside though 18:07
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Nemokosch m: my $item-array = <1 2 3>; $_ = <4 5 6> given $item-array; 18:08
camelia ( no output )
Nemokosch dang, works with the scalar sigil
I can't help but think that the so-called "item assignment" is more reliable overall 18:09
Nemokosch And now let's perform the summoning ceremony of Raku 18:10
m: my @a = <1>; my @b = <2>; (@a, @b ) = (@b, @a); dd @a; dd @b; 18:11
camelia Array @a = ((my @Array_5770288009536) = [[], @Array_5770288009536])
Array @b = []
Nemokosch again, this would work as intended, had you used $ 18:13
And yes, I asked about this, I think Jonathan Worthington explained the behavior (list assignment, STORE is called, it pushes all the values to the emptied @a variable so nothing is left for @b) but I still think this is too horrifying to be acceptable... 18:15
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CIAvash yes, again it's because of containers, I know why it's immutable but not sure about `@a` being a value and `$a` being a container/variable 18:23
m: my @a = 1,2,3; given @a -> $a is raw { $a = [4,5,6] }; dd @a; 18:24
camelia Cannot assign to an immutable value
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
CIAvash m: my @a = 1,2,3; given @a -> @b { @b = [4,5,6] }; dd @a; 18:25
camelia Array @a = [4, 5, 6]
CIAvash m: my @a = 1,2,3; given @a <-> $a { $a = [4,5,6] }; dd @a;
camelia Parameter '$a' expects a writable container (variable) as an argument,
but got '[1 2 3]' (Array) as a value without a container.
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
CIAvash m: my $a = [1,2,3]; given $a <-> $b { $b = [4,5,6] }; dd $a; 18:26
camelia Array $a = $[4, 5, 6]
Nemokosch hmmm 18:27
does this mean that "item assignments" are literally impossible to list containered variables? 18:28
maybe all you have is this STORE method hidden behind "list assignments"? 18:29
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CIAvash apparently, I try to avoid mutability as much as I can and don't do these kind of things. 18:31
Nemokosch I mean that's not a bad idea but that doesn't mean it should be a can of worms, right? 😄 18:32
and especially this (@a, @b) = (@b, @a) 18:33
turns out it's not even easy to swap two variables if they happen to have this sigil
I mean, other than using a temporary third variable like back in the days
and for me, stuff like this definitely ruins my confidence with anything that seems like pattern matching 18:34
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SmokeMachine I've been reading about Erlang's way of doing RPC and that seemed interesting. Then I've started writing this (github.com/FCO/Supervisor), do you think something like this would make sense? 19:48
tellable6 2022-05-02T01:48:51Z #raku <melezhik> SmokeMachine - thanks! I will think about badges , first I want to make SparkyCI works stable ... but yeah I agree badges would be convenient ...
p6steve smokemachine: heck yes 20:00
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SmokeMachine p6steve: thanks! I think I’ll continue trying it… 20:30
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Voldenet Nekomosch: Whenever I actually need to manage references (so, change instance of objects and so on), I use `$`, but when I care about collections, I use @ and % 22:30
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Voldenet erm, typo Nemokosch ^ 22:41
it's not true perl way, but I strongly prefer storing everything in $ even in perl5, because it makes passing arguments more predictable IMO 22:47
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jujo hello people, what is the idiomatic way to read stdin until eof? 23:07
Voldenet m: for lines() { .say }
camelia »Wann treffen wir drei wieder zusamm?«
»Um die siebente Stund‘, am Brückendamm.«
»Am Mittelpfeiler.«
»Ich lösche die Flamm.«
»Ich mit«

»Ich komme vom Norden her.«
»Und ich vom Süden.…
Voldenet m: $*IN.slurp.say 23:08
camelia »Wann treffen wir drei wieder zusamm?«
»Um die siebente Stund‘, am Brückendamm.«
»Am Mittelpfeiler.«
»Ich lösche die Flamm.«
»Ich mit«

»Ich komme vom Norden her.«
»Und ich vom Süden.…
jujo thanks, why use a label? 23:10
also where can I read about the methods of the dynamic $*IN
Voldenet docs.raku.org/language/variables#i...entry-$*IN 23:11
jujo thankyou again :)
Voldenet (the `m:` is a bot command for evaluation, not a label) 23:12
m: invalid-code
camelia ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Undeclared routine:
invalid-code used at line 1
jujo oooooooohhhhhh
23:17 TempIRCLogger left
perryprog m: valid-code 23:18
camelia ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Undeclared routine:
valid-code used at line 1
perryprog :(
Voldenet it's not perl, you can't just type in random things and expect it to work! :> 23:19
perryprog haha 23:21
m: P == NP 23:22
camelia ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Preceding context expects a term, but found infix == instead.
at <tmp>:1
------> P ==⏏ NP
perryprog that works in Perl 5, dangit!
jujo if I want my program to behave differently depending on if I pass it files or I pipe a stream to it, how should I do it 23:26
nvm 23:28
just found out
Voldenet probably just use "-" as argument, it's standard way to do it 23:29
eh, apparently .slurp won't do what you want 23:32
because slurp returns available content for $*IN
jujo I'm declaring main with a slurpy array as argument 23:33
Voldenet $*IN.slurp-rest is the method
jujo and if it is empty I just treat it as input from stdin
(I could do some parsing before deciding)
is it too hacky? 23:34
Voldenet makes sense 23:36
> sub MAIN(IO() :$file = "-") { $file.open.slurp-rest.chars.say } 23:38
that's how I'd do it
jujo oh I see, I was just reading about the builtin arg parsing, very interesting 23:45
what if I want to have rest args after some flags?
Voldenet > sub MAIN(IO() $in, :$out = "out") { $in.say; $out.say; } 23:48
if you want multiple unnamed arguments, you can use *@whatever as args, so 23:50
> sub MAIN(*@c, :$out = "out") { @c.join(";").say; $out.say; } 23:51
keep in mind that in that case, named arguments must appear before unnamed ones
jujo ok I understand
thanks again!
you can declare MAIN as multi right? 23:52
Voldenet Yes
docs.raku.org/language/create-cli#___top 23:53
jujo Thanks again, I will read it 23:56

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