🦋 Welcome to Raku! raku.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/raku
Set by ChanServ on 14 October 2019.
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[Coke] (TPF Grant requests) once the current period of submissions finishes (not sure it's been announced yet), they'll get posted on news.perlfoundation.org and you can comment and review during the comment period. 00:16
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[Coke] ... unless this is a special request trying to setup a fund? 00:16
ah, nope, regular submission. :) 00:17
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holyghost IF I find the time, I might do some guile bindings for raku 06:35
I've put it in my TODO.txt file 06:36
problem is, I don't know where to start
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holyghost binding the raku system has an enormous time load 06:37
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holyghost What I want to do is have some packages extended. So program scheme (in guile) for features 06:38
I still have to think twice about that
guile was made by GNU and rms to extend programs 06:39
I probably don't need nqp extensions, now that I think of it, but perl6 can be extended this way by guile, so you can write extra scheme code for your program 06:40
inlining does not make sense BTW
it probably be better coded in nqp and C, raku's implementation languages
I still have to figure that out, I've never written anything in nqp but as it's perl, I'll manage 06:41
Anyway, I have to have some kind of weekend, so, I'm off 06:42
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gfldex lolibloggedalittle: gfldex.wordpress.com/2020/07/24/aw...-a-bugfix/ 07:37
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kawaii Good morning I/ 08:35
moritz \o kawaii 08:37
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Geth advent: 67ef2c7c8e | (JJ Merelo)++ | 20th/README.md
Add some clarification, refs #48
 09:19
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antoniogamiz o/ 10:53
is there a way to eliminate the call stack when an exception is thrown?
tadzik probably, but I feel like there might be a better solution to what you're trying to do :) 10:57
what's your goal?
antoniogamiz My goal is to throw an exception when a user has specified a non-existent directory
I want to show a helpful message instead of the message + the backtrace 10:58
tadzik then you're probably better off catching the exception in the UI code and printing something more helpful than the entire stack 10:59
antoniogamiz hum, that makes sense, thanks :) 11:00
tadzik full exceptions are worth keeping for future debugging, even though they don't make the best UI :) It's worth to do some extra legwork in the UI so that you don't take the tools away from your future self ;)
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tadzik this also allows you to give the message more context and customize it to your domain 11:01
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Petr37 can i create uwp apps in Raku? 12:39
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sena_kun Petr37, the en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Wi...s_Platform one? Unrealistic for now, unless you can handle implementing of their API, I think, or can come up with some hacks. 12:43
Petr37 thanks 12:45
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Petr37 have Raku wxvidgets binding? 13:21
w
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Petr37 may be gui libri available? 13:58
library 13:59
sena_kun Petr37, there are gtk bindings available, also github.com/hankache/perl6-IUP 14:00
Petr37 i need webview component,but i can't find it in iup 14:01
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Petr37 what about gtk? can o find webview there? 14:04
sena_kun I saw demo of webkit IIRC. 14:06
Petr37, github.com/Xliff/p6-WebkitGTK <- maybe this can be relevant?
gist.github.com/Xliff/afed9c58e738...6645520c8f <- also this. 14:07
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Petr37 sena_kun, thank you very much!! ))) 14:10
sena_kun You can ping Xliff here or create a ticket if there is something unclear. 14:11
Petr37 understood 👍
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cpan-raku New module released to CPAN! Hash2Class (0.0.9) by 03ELIZABETH 14:15
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codesections Looking at the logs from the past couple of hours, I'm really struck by how nice/helpful everyone here is :) tadzik: I think your answer about exceptions was one of the most polite/tactful ways of addressing a potential XY problem I've seen 15:21
tadzik aw thanks :) 15:26
I learned from the best, this channel (and #perl6 before it) is how I learned a lot about being kind on the internet
codesections :) 15:31
kawaii I think in general the Raku community is probably the kindest and most inclusive I've been a part of 15:33
programming communities in general (looking at you, Rust) are well known for elitism and toxicity - none of that here :) 15:34
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kawaii and then there's this absolute gem from Perl monks usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/...AIhmlM.png 15:35
tadzik huh, I haven't noticed that from the Rust community
codesections Haha, that's funny – I was just about to say "I'm coming from Rust, which is *also* known as a kind & inclusive place, but Raku seems even better"
tadzik I guess I was lucky :)
kawaii codesections, tadzik: see; www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/63a..._the_rust/ 15:36
codesections so I'm surprised (/a bit sad) that you got that impression of Rustacians
kawaii codesections: I originally tried learning Rust a couple of years back, and was met by "ah well if you're asking basic questions like this you'll never be a Rust programmer _like me_" 15:37
codesections I'm really sorry to hear that. That sucks :( 15:38
guifa codesections: that’s one of the things I love about Raku too. I think part of it is the TIMTOWTDI mindset of raku invites more people and, from the very get-go, recognizes a diversity of solutions
So no one can just jump in and categorically say “this is the only solution why couldn’t you think of it?" 15:39
kawaii codesections: I moved on to Raku, didn't look back, and much happier I did on retrospect :)
guifa Instead, it’s more like, “Well, here’s one way you can do it, with X, Y, Z advantages/disadvantages, and here’s another one with A, B, and C, based on your situation, think aboutit and figure out what works best” 15:40
codesections I guess I also got lucky. When I got into Rust, the only language I knew was JavaScript (and I wasn't so great at that!). I asked a *lot* of dumb questions and always got helpful replies. Really sucks that you had the opposite experience
tadzik kawaii: I feel like the "circlejerking" there is perhaps the biggest takeaway, but I don't feel like that's unique to Rust – I see that in every echochamber, and I've seen it on this channel too, multiple times :) People struggle to be objective about topics they're deeply invested in 15:41
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tadzik then again, perhaps I lack your perspective. I've had nothing but positive experiences with Rust community, they were limited to #rust:matrix.org and the Warsaw irl user group 15:42
kawaii tadzik: my mistake might have been asking on StackOverflow :) 15:43
tadzik the zealotry and idolizing own tech I find more amusing than annoying :)
kawaii: possibly :)
not sure how the community is over there
codesections oh, interesting – I also didn't use SO much. I mostly asked my dumb questions on r/rust 15:44
maybe there is something about the SO rust culture. I have to say, I've never really gotten a good vibe from SO in general; folks seem oddly interested in earning Internet Points :) 15:45
(but maybe I just never got into it in the right way/early enough – I've heard it used to be better) 15:46
to be clear I *read* plenty of SO answers, I just don't ask many questions
kawaii ^ the best way of using SO, read, don't write. 15:47
I know that people in this IRC are keen on people asking more Raku questions on SO though, and you're likely to just get answers from people here anyway. 15:50
[Coke] .seen jjmerelo 15:58
tellable6 [Coke], I saw jjmerelo 2020-07-22T11:38:09Z in #raku-dev: <JJMerelo> Please propose yourself with a PR or directly if you've got the privs.
[Coke] .ask jjmerelo stackoverflow.com/questions/519478...pl-plugins - can you accept ugexe's answer there? 15:59
tellable6 [Coke], I'll pass your message to JJMerelo
Geth doc: coke self-assigned docs.raku.org/type/Str faq reference github.com/Raku/doc/issues/3530
42b7ac7c14 | Coke++ | doc/Type/Str.pod6

closes #3530		 16:07
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linkable6 Link: docs.raku.org/type/Str
DOC#3530 [closed]: github.com/Raku/doc/issues/3530 [RFE][docs] docs.raku.org/type/Str faq reference
Geth doc: coke assigned to codesections Issue Improvements to util/list-missing-methods.p6 [tracking issue] github.com/Raku/doc/issues/3529
coke self-assigned use v.6 github.com/Raku/doc/issues/3514

reduce emphasis of old 'use v6' usage
closes #3514		 16:10
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linkable6 Link: docs.raku.org/language/pragmas
DOC#3514 [closed]: github.com/Raku/doc/issues/3514 [docs] use v.6
Geth doc: 8d2fbaf37b | Coke++ | doc/Language/testing.pod6
Remove reference to v6.c

Closes #3512		 16:21
linkable6 Link: docs.raku.org/language/testing
DOC#3512 [closed]: github.com/Raku/doc/issues/3512 [RFE][docs] use v6.c mentioned not shown
guifa kawaii codesections exactly true. The most common people to answer on SO are me, raiph, lizmat, jnthn, bgills2, jjmerelo, etc. Probably the biggest decider on who answers (unless it’s a really deep question), is time of day ;-) 16:28
But the reason for SO is that here we canhelp you with the question — but for SO, we get you and others (I’ve also occasionally posted questions people have asked here and given a self-answer for that reason) 16:29
gfldex lolibloggedalittle: gfldex.wordpress.com/2020/07/24/mi...ng-quotes/
guifa gfldex: interesting, never thought about using the <> calling construct to mimic quoting (at least where white space is insignificant) 16:33
[Coke] where is the new rakudoc repo? 16:34
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codesections this? github.com/Raku/rakudoc 16:37
[Coke] thanks! 16:42
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Geth doc: d0d8fbcb50 | Coke++ | 4 files
Remove bin/p6doc, xt/ test.

Closes #3483		 17:35
doc: 9d2c27d808 | Coke++ | doc/Type/independent-routines.pod6
Fix typo
linkable6 DOC#3483 [closed]: github.com/Raku/doc/issues/3483 [docs][xt] xt/p6doc-blackbox.t failures
Geth doc: ba9f2f7f4d | Coke++ | 3 files
learn words/avoid neologism.
linkable6 Link: docs.raku.org/type/independent-routines
doc: b1c6df8540 | Coke++ | 3 files
Remove refs/reqs to unused modules

Move one to build-only dep
Most of #3480		 17:48
linkable6 DOC#3480 [open]: github.com/Raku/doc/issues/3480 [docs][meta] Re-check dependencies for META6.json and reevaluate its role
Geth doc: 653149a184 | Coke++ | 2 files
remove Pod::To::SectionFilter

closes #3531		 17:50
linkable6 DOC#3531 [closed]: github.com/Raku/doc/issues/3531 remove Pod::To::SectionFilter
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Geth doc: c65147ea03 | Coke++ | Makefile
Make 'help' the default make action

Hides some of the issues mentioned in #3035		 17:54
linkable6 DOC#3035 [open]: github.com/Raku/doc/issues/3035 [build][site] Some targets in the Makefile do not work any more
Geth doc: coke self-assigned many failures in xt/examples-compilation.t github.com/Raku/doc/issues/3532
d562572ded | Coke++ | doc/Language/glossary.pod6

  ... it's not used anywhere in the repo anymore and is obsolete.
closes #3287		 17:55
Voldenet gfldex: I'm not sure if that's still relevant, but having custom operators used to massively slow down parsing 17:56
m: my $s = BEGIN now; sub x { $^a }; x 4; say now - $s
camelia 0.02101044
Voldenet m: my $s = BEGIN now; sub prefix:<x> { $^a }; x 4; say now - $s
camelia 0.3397623
Voldenet yep, still the case
timotimo it's true
Voldenet it's a nice feature for long-running code, but I don't use it for scripting 17:57
timotimo i would assume it's still among a few other things optimizing the NFA again for the whole operator category 17:58
when you have the operator in a module, you get it loaded super fast
after precompilation is done, of course
Voldenet oh
gfldex There was no work done on making that area of Rakudo fast. So I have hopes the problem will be solved by somebody who is not me.
linkable6 Link: docs.raku.org/language/glossary
DOC#3287 [closed]: github.com/Raku/doc/issues/3287 [docs][meta] p6y to rakuy
timotimo you're refering to custom operators, right? 18:01
gfldex aye
timotimo ah, i misread, you said "no work done"
yeah that's accurate
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gfldex time raku -Ilib example/basic.raku 18:04
user 0m0.784s
thatäs with spawning 2 processes and a 2 worker threads for processing
Voldenet actually, after precompilation is done, the base cost is still around 300ms, however it doesn't increase with every operator added 18:05
timotimo ah, dang
perhaps in that case it can properly mix in all of the operators at once
instead of recomputing and re-optimizing the nfas after each one in turn
gfldex I'm quite happy to trade that overhead for good error handling and much easier debugging over any bash script. 18:06
timotimo mhm 18:07
Voldenet I'm not sure if it's valid to even mix all operators at once 18:11
m: sub a { "sub $^a" }; sub prefix:<x> { ":x $^a" }; sub prefix:<a> { ":a $^a" }; say x 4 18:13
camelia :x 4
Voldenet m: sub a { "sub $^a" }; sub prefix:<x> { ":x " ~ a $^a }; sub prefix:<a> { ":a $^a" }; say x 4
camelia :x sub 4
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Voldenet this works, but if a in prefix:x was interpreted as prefix:a it wouldn't ;P 18:13
not that I'd expect anyone using this for anything 18:14
gfldex well …
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timotimo prefix operators don't allow space 18:18
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Voldenet m: sub prefix:<a> { ":a $^a" }; say a4 18:24
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Undeclared routine:
a4 used at line 1
Voldenet m: sub prefix:<a> { ":a $^a" }; say a 4
camelia :a 4
Voldenet m: sub prefix:<!> { ":a $^a" }; say !4
camelia :a 4
Voldenet most puzzling 18:25
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codesections `a4` is a valid identifier, but `!4` isn't 18:27
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Voldenet so prefix operators actually require space on usage if they'd be interpreted as identifier with its arguments… 18:32
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oddp And the fancy 3d8 infix op isn't possible either. :( 18:38
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guifa timotimo: the lack of spaces is my biggest issue with making a custom prefix :-( 18:45
timotimo you can only unspace 18:46
sub names aren't broad enough for your needs? 18:47
guifa was just about to say that doing a sub would probably be a decent alternative
lol
It’s just noas clean looking to name a sub after a non-idenifier 18:48
codesections My biggest issue with custom operators right now is that they basically don't work in the REPL (but I'm sure that'll be fixed at some point) 18:49
Unrelatedly, I just realized/learned that Raku allows you to recurse in an anonymous block with &?BLOCK. That's really nice! 18:51
guifa and, fwiw, you can do the same with regexen, by using <~~>
(although &?BLOCK is compile time, not sure if <~~> is) 18:52
codesections (APL has anon recursion with ∇ and it's amazing. I kind of want to make that a Raku operator now …)
"&?BLOCK is compile time" what do you mean by that? I know it's a compile-time variable, but I thought it was just giving the runtime a "name" for the unnamed block it's in? 18:53
so you could still do anything runtime-related you want to, right? Or am I confused? 18:54
(also, I didn't know about <~~> – thanks for the tip!)
guifa codesections: it means it can be linked through at compile time (e.g. not having to look it up, like if you used ::BLOCK or something) 18:59
codesections Oh, you mean "no runtime perf penalty", basically? 19:00
guifa And possibly better optimization
codesections Also, I can't find any docs on `<~~>`. Do you know where it it/should be?
(If it's not documented, I can open an issue)
guifa Compare with using, say, ::OUTER::OUTER (which I actually do), the scopes have to get looked up 19:01
<~~> is not documented for some very strange reason
codesections right, I'm with you now. I thought you were saying it was less powerful by virtue of being a compile time construct (because it couldn't access run time info) and I couldn't figure that out. But being lower cost/free makes sense 19:02
guifa If you need match on it, you need to save it to a named capture, btw. E.g. / pre $<inner>=<~~> post /
but take all perfomance questions from me with a grain of salt, that’s not my area of expertise at all 19:03
guifa motions at <local-alpha> token’s current glacial performance
codesections Thanks. Can you show an example of `<~~>` in use? I'm having trouble figuring out the syntax in my REPL 19:04
timotimo m: say "(((()))(()))" ~~ / ['(' $<inner>=<~~>? ')']+ / 19:05
camelia ｢(((()))(()))｣
inner => ｢((()))(())｣
inner => ｢(())｣
inner => ｢()｣
inner => ｢()｣
guifa m: say “[[[][]][]]” ~~ / ‘[‘ ~ ‘]’ <~~> /
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Unable to parse expression in curly single quotes; couldn't find final "’" (corresponding starter was at line 1)
at <tmp>:1
------> 3say “[[[][]][]]” ~~ / ‘[‘ ~ ‘]’ <~~> /7⏏5<E…
guifa ugh timotimo’s computer didn’t do stupid smart quotes like mine did
but… jinx ;-)
codesections Thanks to you both :) 19:06
guifa . O O ( also mine needed a * modifier)
oh! timotimo just thought of how subs aren’t a great substitute for prefixes 19:07
subs have a fixed precedence
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timotimo indeed they do 19:08
list prefix
they gobble up basically everything to the end of command
guifa so if I say my @a = pfx-as-sub 5, 6, 7; it will always eat up the 6 and 7, whereas with prefixes, I could give it a tighter precedence than the comma operator to only work on 5
timotimo true 19:09
you could 5.&pfx-as-sub
but then it'll be a suffix :D
guifa I feel like .&foo and method $invocant: $arg are the two most underused features 19:10
Comma still doesn’t support code highlighting for the latter *coughcoughjnthnsenakuncoughcough*
timotimo .&bleh is a way to do a sub call that gets curried for WhateverCode 19:11
which is perhaps where i use it most often?
guifa I’ve used it for some custom coercesions
just to align better with code that has .Str or .Num etc 19:12
coercions*
codesections guifa: really? I'm surprised to hear that – I use .&foo *all* the time
I'm sure you're right – I haven't looked at enough other people's code to know. But I'm surprised
guifa codesections: it probably depends on the type of code you’re writing. I’m working almost always in my modules’ spaces, so if I need a method, I can just write it :-) 19:13
Although I’m abotu to do very bad naughty things to DateTime
guifa grins evily
codesections "If I need a method, I can just write it" Fair enough. One place I use it *all* the time, though, is in tests: `my-fn('input').&is(42)` just reads so much better to me 19:16
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guifa hmm; I never thought about using it like that in tests 19:16
I kind of like it, tbh
thundergnat m: sub infix:<d> ($a, $b) { (1..$b).roll($a) }; say 4 d 6; sub term:<3d8> { 3 d 8 }; say 3d8; # Roll the dice! 19:17
camelia (5 3 4 6)
(2 1 7)
guifa someone’s about to start DnDing
thundergnat in response to oddp abut 45 minutes ago... 19:18
guifa aah
oddp Yeah, but I was refering to the obligatory whitespace that you had to use. 19:19
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oddp Oh wait. Damn. 19:19
timotimo m: sub postcircumfix:<.should-be( )>($a, $b) { if $a !== $b { say "oh no" }; $a }; 99.should-be(5).say
camelia oh no
99
thundergnat obligatory whitespace? in the last command? 19:20
timotimo screw the rules
oddp Sweet, good to know, thanks, thundergnat!
codesections hmm, I'm still confused by <~~> 19:21
m: say "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" ~~ /\w+ $<inner>=<~~> \w+/
camelia Nil
codesections why is that Nil?
oddp Now I just need to sprinkle some metaprogramming on top of that to generate all possbile combinations. ;)
thundergnat theres (almost always) some way to break the rules
timotimo no whitespace allowed
oh 19:22
there is no termination condition
only infinitely long texts have any hope of matching
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codesections m: say "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" ~~ /\w+ <ws> $<inner>=<~~>? <ws> \w+/ 19:25
camelia ｢The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy｣
ws => ｢ ｣
inner => ｢quick brown fox jumps over the｣
ws => ｢ ｣
inner => ｢brown fox jumps over｣
ws => ｢ ｣
inner => ｢fox jumps｣
ws => ｢ ｣
ws => …
timotimo i recommend using <.ws> so it doesn't show up in the result 19:27
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codesections thanks, I'd forgotten about that. That does clean it up quite a bit :) 19:30
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Petr37 rakudo.js is still development? 20:26
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Petr37 if yes,ehere i can find documentation? 20:27
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pmurias Petr37: it's not really developed at this moment 21:01
tellable6 2020-07-20T17:42:09Z #raku <[Coke]> pmurias do you have directions on how to generate an updated npm module? Want to make sure we keep up to date on the rakudo.js versions if possible.
Petr37 pmurias, ok, understood 21:02
pmurias Petr37: got a new job at Google so kind of focused on that, before was affected by all the social distancing bullshit pretty bad (and a bit hearbroken) so couldn't get myself to work on it much 21:04
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moritz pmurias: congrats on the new job! 21:05
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pmurias moritz: thank you 21:06
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cpan-raku New module released to CPAN! Hash2Class (0.1.0) by 03ELIZABETH 21:29
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zacts hello 21:43
is the raku language and syntax implemented in raku on-top of MoarVM or is a bunch of it implemented in C? 21:44
like if I wanted to add a new operator to the language would I just need to know raku, or would I also need to know C?
El_Che raku should be enough 21:46
zacts cool, thanks
El_Che there is moarvm, nqp (subset of raku closer to the metal) and raku
zacts ok 21:47
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rypervenche zacts: Creating a new operator is very easy to do. andrewshitov.com/2018/10/31/assign...in-perl-6/ 21:56
Hmm, I feel like docs.raku.org/language/optut is rather cluttered. 21:57
zacts oh awesome thanks :-) 21:59
timotimo pretty much all classes, subs, operators are implemented in raku 22:01
the grammar that is used to parse raku code in rakudo is also implemented in nqp 22:02
soon, thanks to the rakuast project, it'll be much more accessible from raku code without having to deal with the idiosyncracies of nqp
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oddp Might just be due to my inexperience with it and the way nqp usually is formatted, but some of it really reads like the most horrible c++ template metaprogramming code. :( 22:11
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timotimo some places have been put through a little optimization process 22:12
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Geth doc: 372f5467cb | (V. N)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Type/Proc/Async.pod6
update method start for Proc::Async

  github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/mast...c.pm6#L307		 22:58
doc: e9b7ac4221 | (Will Coleda)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Type/Proc/Async.pod6
Merge pull request #3508 from interlab/patch-3

update method start for Proc::Async
linkable6 Link: docs.raku.org/type/Proc::Async
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adu is there a grammar channel? 23:01
timotimo if you mean on IRC, then i'm not aware of one 23:02
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rypervenche adu: Do you have a question about grammars? 23:08
adu not really 23:09
Geth ¦ doc: coke assigned to JJ Issue Change from p6doc to rakudoc github.com/Raku/doc/issues/3203 23:10
adu I haven't used raku since it was called perl6, is there a new file extension? 23:11
timotimo the old ones keep working for quite a while
but we do have rakumod, and rakudoc as well as .raku
adu should new code use .raku? 23:12
timotimo i think i need a bit of confirmation on that
oh, you mean the method?
adu file extension 23:13
timotimo ok
rypervenche Yep, .raku should be used for Raku files. .rakumod for modules. 23:14
Assuming you're on any recent version of Rakudo.
adu looks like Feb 23:17
rakudo-0.2020.02-1.fc32.x86_64 23:18
timotimo modules already put the full filenames in their provides sections, so i can imagine .rakumod will also work properly in older versions
probably not with -Ilib and friends
kawaii Trying to make a method, using the name `user.id { }` and getting an error about a missing block? 23:19
github.com/shuppet/p6-api-discord/...b55ddf9fc1
not seen this before, ideas?
timotimo i don't think methods are allowed to have a . in their name just like that 23:25
kawaii ah that's a shame
timotimo so when it sees the . it knws your identifier is over and there ought to be a signature, or the block
kawaii I will git amend and force push so that no one thinks I am a fool
timotimo: `+ a06b4d7...e7106a3 master -> master (forced update)` 23:28
no one will ever know, thanks ;)
what does `\s*` in raku regex signify? one space? an infinite number of spaces? 23:29
[Coke] \s is space - * is a modifier that says "0 or more of the preceding thing" 23:38
m: dd "asdf" ~~ / \s* /
camelia Match.new(:orig("asdf"), :from(0), :pos(0))
[Coke] m: dd ? "asdf" ~~ / \s* /
camelia Match.new(:orig, :from(0), :pos(0))
[Coke] m: dd ?("asdf" ~~ / \s* /)
camelia Bool::True
kawaii ah, thanks :) 23:40
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kawaii so I have `~~` in my capture here, `when $message.content ~~ / '<@' '!'? <(\d+)> '>' \s* '++' / { ... }`, if I change that to `==` will it prevent matching when someone puts arbitrary text after the '++`? 23:56
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timotimo no 23:59
instead you will want to anchor the end with $

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