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guifa2 I just found my new favorite ANSI codes lol, \x0101b#3 and \x0101b#4 01:40
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timotimo What do those do? 01:46
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guifa timotimo: double sized text 03:14
try this out
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melezhik .tell @demostanis - Sparrowdo is not paranoid about security at all, I'd be glad to consider your suggestion if you really _need_ to have Sparrowdo more secure 03:30
tellable6 melezhik, I cannot recognize this command. See wiki for some examples: github.com/Raku/whateverable/wiki/Tellable
melezhik so far it just works for me ...
tellable6 2020-07-31T17:40:47Z #raku <tony-o> melezhik thank you, i'll take a look
melezhik .tel demostanis: Sparrowdo is not paranoid about security at all, I'd be glad to consider your suggestions if you really _need_ to have Sparrowdo more secure. So far it works for me 03:34
.tell demostanis: Sparrowdo is not paranoid about security at all, I'd be glad to consider your suggestions if you really _need_ to have Sparrowdo more secure. So far it works for me 03:35
tellable6 melezhik, I'll pass your message to demostanis
melezhik yeah, that the way, hopefully tellable will tell )))
.tell demostanis: "In a docker container as root, sparrowdo tried to run sudo..." - sparrowdo has --no_sudo option 03:36
tellable6 melezhik, I'll pass your message to demostanis
melezhik .tell codesections "it seems like the vulnerability is exposing a local config-management tool to user input" that's right. anyway this level of paranoia could be easily achieved though 03:45
tellable6 melezhik, I'll pass your message to codesections
melezhik by just adding something like `Str :$ssh_user where /^^\w+/$$` 03:47
inside `main`
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melezhik I just never needed that, and probably this type of constraints should be done in the program that _uses_ a sparrowdo, not sparrowdo itself 03:48
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guifa raku -e 'say "This is little\n\x001b#3This is big\n\x001b#4This is big"' 05:03
^^ timotimo check that out :-)
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ab5tract .tell JJMerelo yeah that's the one! the Hilbert matrix does cute things to floats when it encounters it's inverse. 05:43
tellable6 ab5tract, I'll pass your message to JJMerelo
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Geth_ ecosystem: alabamenhu++ created pull request #522:
Add DateTime::Timezones		 07:11
ecosystem: 01194bb416 | L'Alabameñu++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list
Add DateTime::Timezones
 07:16
ecosystem: b9c37fc68e | (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list
Merge pull request #522 from alabamenhu/patch-8

Add DateTime::Timezones Thanks!
JJMerelo Well, we're down to the last article. We need more articles. 07:20
guifa2 noted. I'll work on one this afternoon
Just gotta decide which RFC
JJMerelo BTW, the article today by alabamenhu is excellent raku-advent.blog/2020/08/08/rfc-22...positions/
guifa2 ty! 07:21
JJMerelo Or guifa2
There are a couple posted at the repo, if bad comes to worse, I'll post those ones myself. I don't want to do it without permission, anyhow
.tell moritz you ready to post your article in WP or you want me to do it for you?
tellable6 JJMerelo, I'll pass your message to moritz
JJMerelo .tell p6steve you ready to post that in the blog or are you OK if I do it for you? 07:22
tellable6 JJMerelo, I'll pass your message to p6steve
raku-bridge <stu002> Are there any things to watch when creating a role with an infix operator method? Something like: role Addable { method infix:<⊕>(Int:D \x) of Int:D { self + x + 42 } } 07:24
<stu002> Then trying to use it like: my Int \value = 33 but Addable; say value ⊕ 23;
<stu002> Raku sees this as a syntax error I think. 07:25
JJMerelo stu002 infix are binary operators.
stu002 you probably need to add Addable:D: to the signature 07:26
guifa2 Also the infixes should be defined outside of the role, otherwise they can only be seen by the role 07:27
raku-bridge <stu002> Aha -- that's my misunderstanding. I Assumed they had the same scoping rules of a role method. 07:28
JJMerelo guifa2 but then they can't use self, which might be private... makes more sense to define them outside, anyway...
guifa2 class A { has $.x }; multi sub infix:<⊕> ($i, $j) { $i.x + $j.x + 42 }; say A.new(:100x) ⊕ A.new(:10x) 07:30
evalable6 152
guifa2 Granted, I used a class, but works the same for a role
raku-bridge <stu002> JJMerelo, guifa2: Good advice -- thanks. 07:31
guifa2 If you're extending any of the built ins like + - etc, it's absolutely essential to use multi sub (instead of just sub) and to type your signature, e.g.
multi sub infix:<⊕> (A $i, A $j)
raku-bridge <stu002> Do these infix sub's have the same package visibility rules as "regular" sub's? 07:37
<stu002> Using one of them with an "is export" trait from a package actually make Raku (rakudo-star 20.01) segfault. 07:38
guifa2 yikes, they shouldn't be doing that
but "is export" is what you'd want to do
Any chance you're using them in a BEGIN phaser? 07:39
raku-bridge <stu002> No -- but it may have been fixed in Rakudo star since 20.01 (which is the latest on MacOS)
<stu002> Very, very new to Raku so probably doing something completely silly. 07:40
guifa2 Eh, regardless you shouldn't be causing a segmentation fault :-)
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guifa2 Hold onto that code or post it up somewhere if you don't mind and maybe I can golf it tomorrow to figure out the cause 07:40
guifa2 is about to pass out since it's almost 4am lol 07:41
raku-bridge <stu002> Will do. BTW, removing the "multi" from the "multi sub" stopped the segfault.
<stu002> Sleep tight. 07:42
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moritz JJMerelo: I can schedule the article, you just need to tell me for which day :-) 08:02
tellable6 2020-08-08T07:21:57Z #raku <JJMerelo> moritz you ready to post your article in WP or you want me to do it for you?
JJMerelo Monday AM 08:03
And thanks
moritz that's the 10th, right? 08:04
scheduled. 08:12
JJMerelo moritz all good! Thanks a lot. 08:13
With that one, we're halfway through the 20th anniversary calendar :-)
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moritz slightly chuckles at raku.org/archive/rfc/288.html 08:44
JJMerelo moritz yep, CGI... 08:47
well, those were our worries back then...
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tbrowder er, guys don't laff, i'm still using cgi with raku 09:48
moritz tbrowder: and there's nothing wrong with that, if it works for you 09:49
it's just not as central to web development as it once was, and so the idea of including it into the language proper seems a bit... old fashioned 09:50
JJMerelo tbrowder it's a quick and dirty way of getting stuff done... 09:59
IIRC, it's been phased out of the Perl core too.
m: say Version.new("v0.0.1") 10:00
camelia vv.0.0.1
moritz CGI was first released with perl 5.004, deprecated (will be CPAN-only) in v5.19.7 and removed from v5.21.0
JJMerelo m: say Version.new("0.0.1")
camelia v0.0.1
JJMerelo m: say Version.new("v.0.0.1")
camelia vv.0.0.1
tbrowder yes, i know. at heart though the cgi is really easy to deal with using raku. 10:01
JJMerelo tbrowder the problem is that you upload and compile every single time.
tbrowder but i only came to that understanding when converting from perl 10:02
JJMerelo You use CGI directly, interpreting URL and standard input or whatever? Or some library of yours? 10:04
tbrowder yes, but it's not a sig factor in my usage. i do mean to use reverse proxy some day but i'm still collecting howtos for tls handling and multiple virtual hosts with apache macros. 10:05
JJMerelo Wow, awesome. 10:07
I've just seen PAUSE keeps using Perl6 for the upload directory 10:08
The repo is in GitHub, but does not seem exceptionally well maintained... Also, I don't know the master-to-deployment ratio... 10:09
tbrowder i'm not exactly sure how it works but for most of my handling i have the server side includes call my raku handler which then has access to the standard cgi vars plus all the tls vars. then i can get info from my users. 10:10
JJMerelo So I don't know if it's worth the while to dig into it and change the default directory at all. It might be much more difficult than just changing a string, I guess...
tbrowder it if works for you... great
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demostanis Hello people! I'm still fixing bugs, and I have a new one: How can I handle broken promises which were `await`ed? .then() doesn't seem to be a solution as it's running inside of a loop and waiting for last promise to end before 10:53
tellable6 2020-08-08T03:35:14Z #raku <melezhik> demostanis: Sparrowdo is not paranoid about security at all, I'd be glad to consider your suggestions if you really _need_ to have Sparrowdo more secure. So far it works for me
2020-08-08T03:36:48Z #raku <melezhik> demostanis: "In a docker container as root, sparrowdo tried to run sudo..." - sparrowdo has --no_sudo option
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demostanis ... before calling next promise* 10:54
melezhik: I was just checking some existing projects written in Raku, but I don't plan on using Sparrowdo. Also security doesn't seem to be that important as it's supposed to be running locally. 10:56
tellable6 demostanis, I'll pass your message to melezhik
demostanis Oh I found randomly X::Await::Died 11:08
But it isn't documented
CATCH { when X::Await::Died { say .message; last } } 11:10
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timotimo guifa2: out of the terminals i tried, only Konsole seems to implement that :( 11:56
ab5tract hmm, there seems to be an exegesis missing (E07): raku.org/archive/doc/design/exe/E07.html 11:57
tellable6 2020-08-07T16:44:19Z #raku <JJMerelo> ab5tract you mean this one? gist.github.com/ab5tract/3e25e4a2c...01a85b6993
ab5tract also curious whether anyone has further back story for this sentence from synopsis 9? raw.githubusercontent.com/perl6/sp...-data.pod: "This synopsis summarizes the non-existent Apocalypse 9, which 11:59
discussed in detail the design of Perl 6 data structures. It was
primarily a discussion of how the existing features of Perl 6 combine
to make it easier for the PDL folks to write numeric Perl."
cpan-raku New module released to CPAN! Opt::Handler (0.0.3) by 03TBROWDER 12:01
ab5tract so the content of the synopsis is the result of this discussion. That's a cool detail! But if anyone has any links or memories from that discussion I can put them into my post on rationals"
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guifa timotimo: hmm, I guess I shouldn’t assume that this stuff works in all. Its implementation is so old school (print it twice) I figured it’d have better support lol 15:29
I wonder if there’s a way to detect if the feature is available and output accordingly
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timotimo well, there's termcap i guess? 15:32
rypervenche If I have a token named <valid-chars> and I want to remove '-' from what it matches, is that possible? I'm trying to find the correct syntax. <valid-chars - [-]> somethiing like this? 15:37
timotimo may have to put a + in front of valid-chars 15:38
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guifa2 timotimo: + is implied for the first item 15:43
timotimo i thought it might sometimes be required for syntax disambiguation 15:44
rypervenche Oh, that seems to have fixed it. 15:45
What would it be ambiguous with?
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timotimo calling of subrules or something 15:47
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timotimo i'm a bit fuzzy on this exact part 15:47
guifa2 are you writing literally <valid-chars -[-]> or is it more like <[abcd]-[-]> ? 15:48
timotimo i expect literally "valid-chars"
as in, there'd be a regex valid-chars already 15:49
guifa2 if the former works my guess is what prevents the ambiguitiy is a method/subrule would require a colon like <valid-chars: …>
I don't think when I made fuzzytoken I could just do <fuzzy foo> and had to always calli t as <fuzzy: foo> or <fuzzy(foo)> 15:50
timotimo: oddly I can't in terminfo/termcap anything relating to the double sized letters. Hrm.... more investigation required 15:51
timotimo same :( 15:52
JJMerelo So I guess it's that time of the year when we do user surveys, right? 15:56
guifa2 www.asciiart.eu/animals/insects/butterflies I've got some ideas with this 16:04
timotimo that doesn't really clearly state anything about licensing 16:05
guifa2 timotimo: fair, although I was more looking at using some of the smaller ones where I could easily make my own variations 16:10
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guifa2 there's one that uses q 9 p 6 for the wing designs and I'd just need to switch them to align the p 6 with Camelia 16:11
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timotimo it's too bad that raku grammars don't easily allow us to put multi-line operators in code 16:11
guifa2 is there a reason that operators have to be explicit text, and can't use regex? (I mean, I'm sure there is, but it seems an odd restriction) 16:12
timotimo hmm.
if a line that contains a multi-line operator must not have regular code in it, it could be easier to slang it 16:13
if lines can overlap, on the other hand ... oh lord ...
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timotimo since it would require alignment to fit. you better not also have wide characters in your code lines 16:14
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guifa2 o.O wait what unholy thing are you trying to do? 16:15
timotimo here's an ugly and terrible sketch
/ \
my $foo = | 5 + 3 | 16:16
\ /
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timotimo multi-line operators :) 16:16
guifa2 ahhhhhh
I thought you mean doing like
my $foo = 5 start-of-operator\n\n\n\n\-end-of-operator 6; 16:17
I think the most proper way to do something like that is a slang, and a complicated one at that.
sjn multi-line operators like sums or integrals or limits? 16:18
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guifa2 actually, you could probably fake sums/integrals by using my $sum = [end value] \nl [summation operator] [formula] \nl [start value] 16:21
oh wait, you can't make NL an operator ha 16:22
tbrowder guifa2: do you know how to define a new slang in core grammar? 16:24
guifa2 tbrowder: I've been having a lot of trouble doing that with binex
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tbrowder binex?? 16:24
guifa2 binary regex
tbrowder ah 16:25
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guifa2 basically, to make binary pattern matching easy 16:25
timotimo begex
tbrowder is yr work on a public branch in rakudo?
timotimo sjn: and butterflies! 16:26
guifa2 I have all the elements basically ready … except being able to shoehorn things in to be able to use inline code blocks, etc. It may be that jnhtn++ 's RakuAST might help there so I've held off on doing it
But there are some good examples of simpler ones where you can fairly easy piece together control sequences to allow Perl-style control-word block block block without needing a comma like Raku would 16:27
the inline SQL is an example of it 16:28
and the for-else
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tbrowder ok. i've been looking for a good cookbook for doing it. ShimmerFairy had a project that demoed a rewrite of pod handling but afaik it never got incorporated in core, so that "little" howto hook is missing. i think it would aid core pod work immensely. 16:30
the slang that is. some features she had were way beyond what i would ever dream of needing, but cool nevertheless. 16:32
guifa2 I'm going to try getting a Rakudo set up so I can test integrating Binex into core. I think it would be an awesome addition there, but I need to really work out every kink before I start thinking about that. Maybe 6.f or 6.g ha 16:33
But I think you can follow the inline-sql or for-else models for POD because you're just modifying the pod language 16:37
and that's better supported that putting in a new language entirely
tbrowder are those models in core or in module grammars that hook into core? 16:40
guifa2 They're module grammars that hook into it 16:42
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guifa2 tbrowder: github.com/tony-o/perl6-slang-sql 16:44
and p6weekly.wordpress.com/2019/09/23/...else-itch/
err
blogs.perl.org/users/damian_conway/...ratch.html
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tbrowder thnx! 17:07
guifa2 timotimo: more investigating shows that the double height is one of those specs that xterm has and one or two other terminal emulators but sadly a lot don't. Gnome's libvte has maintainer that's virulently against putting it in 17:25
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timotimo well, that sounds like we won't be getting it :( 17:31
guifa2 It's sad, I have such pretty output from my updater script 17:34
timotimo are the vte devs also against putting in sixel support? 17:36
guifa2 It looks like there's only an experimental fork 17:37
imgur.com/erR1eFC <-- output from my updater script
demostanis HubToDate's first release!!!! github.com/demostanis/hubtodate/re...s/tag/v0.4 17:40
It's still in BETA tho 17:41
There are many bugs
guifa2 weekly: github.com/demostanis/hubtodate/re...s/tag/v0.4 17:42
notable6 guifa2, Noted! (weekly)
demostanis What does weekly do?
moritz it adds the message to a list, which lizmat usually evaluates when she writes the Raku weekly blog/newsletter/whatever 17:47
demostanis Oh ok that's cool
Thanks for adding me to the list
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guifa2 If you haven't read the rakudo weekly, you definitely should 17:53
It's a great way to keep up to date on the work that people re doing
demostanis I've read some article already, it's interesting
guifa2 I wonder 17:57
Is there a niec way a module could self update?
Even better, if during the installation process it yells at the user and says "Hey, you want me to self update?"
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demostanis HubToDate auto updates when you run it 18:03
tbrowder demostanis: good job. 18:10
++
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timotimo and that at the bottom is double-width-single-height text? 18:23
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timotimo so, you know how programs nowadays(tm) ship a whole browser with their code ... 18:23
why not have a terminal emulator that has a few silly extra features, like support for in-line images, or "proper" GUI widgets mixed into the buffer, and ship that with your program 18:24
guifa2 timotimo: indeed. 18:26
I actually have seen some neat techniques for showing images in terminals by manipulating the old greyscale-esque text displays and combining with fore/background color switches
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timotimo have you seen sixel? 18:27
guifa2 Not until you had mentioned it earlier today 18:28
I was only aware of, e.g, github.com/atanunq/viu
timotimo libsixel has some impressive examples
i know there's a program somewhere that uses more than just upper half block to display images in the terminal 18:29
like there's also triangle-halves and such
guifa2 Yeah, I've seen the triangle one I just can't remember what it's called 18:30
timotimo and of course in xterm you can get the windowid and use the X protocol with that 18:32
also, you can do it like nnn and have an xembed hoster (forgot the name, it's linked from there) do display-stuff fr you
guifa2 I want to get more into terminal programming. But only so much time in a day lol 18:38
timotimo true 18:40
and it can be quite fiddly
hey do you want to build a simple module that gives you a whole-screen-except-input-line scrollable thingie?
you probably already know of codes for making regions of the screen scrollable and such 18:41
guifa2 Eh I literally look them up as I feel like I need them hahahaha
scrolling via up/down arrows shouldn't be too hard 18:42
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timotimo but probably also wants line editing with histry recall 18:52
guifa2 Hmm, that might be tougher 18:53
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timotimo you know how linenoise wanted to be a "readline but not as huge" and ended up very big anyway because turns out terminals are terrible? 18:59
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guifa2 Terminal stuff is where I feel like the world is really in need of a reboot. 19:03
But it would just inevitably become one standard in a sea of thousands
codesections xkcd.com/927/ 19:04
tellable6 2020-08-08T03:45:41Z #raku <melezhik> codesections "it seems like the vulnerability is exposing a local config-management tool to user input" that's right. anyway this level of paranoia could be easily achieved though
guifa2 codesections: that's exatly what I had in mind (I even quoted that in my dissertation) 19:22
codesections :)
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guifa2 wow 19:29
By using my timezones I was able to make a world clock in less than a dozen lines of code 19:30
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guifa2 gist.github.com/alabamenhu/70f7538...2d56b9603e 19:34
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tbrowder guifa2: i rember reading Damian's blog. But I didn't see the direct applicability, except references to the nqp and qast chunks which i think are very useful. the problem as i see it is the actual pod grammar serializes child some pod objects prematurely and it's difficult (and likely inefficent) to reverse that to properly assemble the whole class. 19:40
*some child pod objects
one glaring example: the first line in a defn block is sucked into the whole block when it shouldn't be. some valid cases are ok, but some are not. 19:43
codesections tbrowder: I'm not sure if this is related, but also: the Pod Declarator block for a sub isn't serializable 19:45
at least not in a round-trip way
because it has a WHEREFORE block referencing the Sub's memory location 19:46
tbrowder yes, that's kind of a mixed bag. it's lately been realized it's not attaching properly to all definitions as s26 seems to say. aside from that, the original implementation normalized the decl block text that was captured when it shouldn't have. i have a branch in work that i believe tests well so far on the leading decl blocks, but not trailing. 19:51
i think you pointed out the other day a good clue about trailing decls being attached to signatures and i don't think i've followed that yet. 19:52
codesections Yeah, I remember all that (I opened the issue you mentioned) 19:54
I was raising a separate point (which isn't really related, I guess, but your use of the word "serializable" prompted me to bring it up 19:55
tbrowder all along i've read s26 as being associated with user classes and functions but you i think said they should work with all objects including built-ins.
and i agree. 19:56
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guifa2 oh nice, if you only have one whenever block in a react block 19:58
you can just say "react whenever foo { … }"
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codesections Well, I don't know about "all" objects – jnthn++ made the point that there'd be an issue documenting e.g., `Blocks`, which seems fair enough 20:00
But Roast says they should work for variables and constants: github.com/Raku/roast/blob/master/...#L283-L299
tbrowder yeah, my words are usually a bit fuzzy 20:04
*randomly fuzzy 20:10
since you have some interest in pod, i would aappreciate some feedback on an idea i have for a different approach for handling pod grammar. 20:12
codesections Sure thing 20:13
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tbrowder during parsing as pod blocks are recognized assemble them into nqp classes without serializing until they are complete. this first step would be done without too much, if any, grammar change, but it should clean up a lot of the Actions and Pod code. the primary improvement for step one should be clarity and a bit more progress on NYI bits. 20:21
there are several examples of problem pod like the defn block including... 20:24
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tbrowder block types with and without config info, # alias for numbering, recursive paras, pod tables and formatted text, etc. 20:26
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codesections Is that the full idea you'd like my thoughts on? (Just want to confirm) 20:36
tbrowder well, it's not a formal proposal, but a direction i want to take but not if the big dogs don't like it. so far i've floated the idea a time or two but got nada feedback. 20:45
i guess i should make it more formal but haven't had the energy...i'm pretty much in linear mode with not much multiprocessing. 20:50
codesections haha, fair enough! I don't have a *ton* of useful, thoughts, unfortunately, but since you asked …: 20:53
That seems fine, as far as I know – but I haven't yet dug into nqp or Rakudo's internals. Basically, that seems like an implimentation detail that *could* be cleaner or faster, but I don't know enough to have an informed opinion 20:54
If I'm understanding your proposal, that wouldn't have any impact for the module author using Pod, would it? 20:55
tbrowder no, except hopefully improve the situation by checking off some nyi items. it would not be moving backward at all. roast will be maintained (except where it is known to be incorrect in the decl block format situation). 20:58
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codesections yeah, that's what I thought. In that case, it seems like I'm the wrong person to respond – you don't need thoughts from someone who is interested in Pod, you need thoughts from someone who knows about nqp/Rakudo internals. And that'd not (yet) me :) From first principles, your suggestion makes sense, but I don't trust that 21:00
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tbrowder thnx anyway, nice to chat today. take care. 21:36
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codesections Is there a way to lazily assign to a variable? something like `lazy my $a = expensive-calculation()` ? 23:02
(with the goal of having `expensive-calculation` called 0 or 1 times – 0 times if $a is never used and 1 time if $a is used, potentially many times) 23:07
stu002 How are macOS Raku users installing rakudo? rakudo-star is at 20.01 on Homebrew. Should I compile my own version or use rakubrew? 23:08
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codesections I don't use Raku on a mac, sorry 23:18
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codesections m: sub slow() { sleep 1; 42}; my $a = lazy gather { take slow }; say $a[0]; say $a[0]; 23:20
camelia 42
42
codesections that ^^^^ achieves the effect I'm looking for, but is really clunky
rypervenche stu002: I think a lot of people use rakubrew on Mac. 23:22
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rypervenche For the grammar gurus out there, what's the best way to know/figure out the structure of your grammar tree. For example, when creating my actions, what's the best way to know if the method I'm creating will be acting on a single item or an array-like item? 23:25
Up until now I've been doing it rather visually, but as my grammar gets more complex, it's a bit hard to follow sometimes.
tbrowder proposal for any raku/apache experts: have you used raku with cro or bailador or any other http raku server behind an apache reverse proxy server USING TLS? if so, i would pay real money for the apache https conf code that works with apache macro for virtual hosts. (this offer is transferable to any other if interested, make 23:35
if interested contact me by private msg
jnthn tbrowder: Do you want TLS between apache and cro, or to use apache to do the TLS setup? 23:42
Well, or both :)
tbrowder if anyone is interested in running the latest and greatest apache 2.4.43 with openssl 1.1.1g you can see my detailed build from source (debian 10) instructions at github.com/tbrowder/config-scripts 23:47
rypervenche I think it would be cool to see examples of all of those cases, perhaps somewhere where everyone could benefit from them. 23:48
tbrowder jnthn, i have apache running very securely (A+) and with some managed domains (moving slowly). i use apache macros to define virtual host configuratios. i would like to move to reverse proxy sites while continuing using the macros. 23:51
so the main block is getting the apache reverse proxy right along with the tls certs from lets encrypt. i think the 23:53
so i would like to plug in cro, with tls, behind the proxy, with one or more instances of cro running i guess is what would be required. 23:55
excuse the ff pls 23:56
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tbrowder one per vhost, different port per each. easy if the macro syntax is right. that seems to be close hold. 23:59

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