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Set by ChanServ on 14 October 2019.
raydiak codesections: if you have no objections, I'm going to report your conditional state in a loop bug which we discussed last week. I messed with it a bit, came up with some other related failures, and found one open and two closed issues which are related but neither appreciate the full array of failure cases, nor have any currenlty relevant example code 00:48
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moon-child ix.io/2W7Q/perl6 how to make a JIT in raku 01:06
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guifa moon-child: so my lower level stuff is a bit weak but lemme see if I’m getting that right 01:38
the $a[…] are just the series of opcodes yeah? 01:39
codesections raydiak: not only would I not mind, I'd appreciate it! I have writing that up as a task on my to-do list (well, actually in a todo comment in the related code), and getting to check it off without having to do anything is a nice surprise :)
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moon-child guifa: right 01:41
0xb8 is mov eax 01:42
0x15 00 00 00 is the little-endian representation of 21
and 0xc3 is ret
guifa Neat. The only machine code stuff I’ve really done was like any CS student — good old pep
moon-child pep? 01:43
guifa computersystemsbook.com/5th-edition/pep9/ <— fairly common textbook in CS departments, has its own CPU simulator 01:44
moon-child ah, cool
I know mips gets used a lot too...only ever bothered to properly learn x86, though
guifa is going back for an MS in CS because he’s a glutton for punishment haha 01:45
but I feel like doing some of this stuff at the lower level I might be able to help contribute outside of just making modules ha
moon-child thinking about going to uni 01:46
still not entirely sure what I want to do though
guifa I get go for free, so it’s a bit of a no-brainer for me
but still, just finished up a PhD so haha 01:47
codesections yeah, that would make it a lot easier. For those of us without that as a job perk, my impression is that CS MS degrees are pretty pricey -- is that right? 01:48
guifa It really depends. Stateside, at least, if you can go in state it’s probably not terrible 01:49
codesections In contrast to PhDs, where the (monetary) cost is probably the lowest barrier
guifa Although if you go fulltime, you should be getting an assistanceship, but that kind of negates the “do it while working $job” bit 01:50
codesections ha, yeah
guifa GaTech has an MS in CS that’s fully online for $7k
codesections hmm, interesting. 01:51
guifa And of course, GaTech is not a podunk school
codesections indeed
moon-child guifa: wait, you have a phd and you're going back for an ms? 01:52
why?
guifa moon-child: different fields.
moon-child ahh
what's the phd in?
guifa Spanish & Portuguese
moon-child oh wow, cool 01:53
guifa my dissertation had some uuuuuuuuuuuuuuugly Raku code
moon-child haha
guifa I’m hoping this summer to clean it up
codesections yeah, if I were to get a MS, I'd also be taking it after a terminal degree. Not a PhD, but we still got to wear the octagonal hats
guifa ’s university doesn’t do a special cap for PhD :-( 01:54
moon-child :/
codesections that _is_ :-( 01:55
guifa Oh don’t even get me started
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codesections do you own a set of robes now, though? 01:56
guifa Yeah. And after I ordered it my dad told me he actually had my grandpa’s old (high quality) ones in storage 01:57
I was like, thanks dad
codesections ha
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guifa But yeah, hopefully with the MS I can have better chances at attracting some grant money for my research, but also really would like to be able to contribute more to Raku 01:58
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guifa (especially for binary grammars…. those are basically beginning to be mega optimized) 02:01
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moon-child binary grammars? 02:03
codesections do you have a sense of what places like that would make of my (total lack of) formal CS background? I'm looking at the GaTech site (since you mentioned it)
and they say "Having a strong undergraduate background in computer science, including C programming, is highly recommended for applicants"
guifa codesections: they require letters of rec from people in the field. GaTech’s at that level where they can really demand it =/ 02:04
codesections somehow, I don't think a Philosophy BA or a JD would really help all that much :D
guifa At my university, we have three leveling courses you have to take (and potentially three math courses as well, depending on your undergraduat ecourses)
codesections do y'all have a distance program? There's a non-zero chance that I'd be able to count as an in-state resident there within the next couple of years 02:07
guifa in TN? And yeah, it’s available entirely online. 02:08
The one nice thing, I suppose, about our program is we have strong links with Oak Ridge which …  02:10
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summit_(supercomputer)
codesections it's possible. NC is more likely, but somewhere in that general region is pretty likely
guifa I would imagine at this point most major and regional state schools have them all online. I’d be *extremely* surprised if UNCH doesn’t have one 02:11
err UNCCH
codesections yeah. I'm actually in a college town right now, and my plan had been to try to audit a class in person while I was here. But that obviously didn't happen in 2020 02:13
guifa moon-child: re binary grammar, I proposed two new grammar type systems, one would work on binary data (instead of strings) and the other on object sequences. Most of the work I’ve done is towards the former. Once RakuAST comes out I’ll go back to work on it to try to get it to a real usable state 02:20
moon-child 'object sequences' interesting
so something you would be able to use to make a general-purpose state machine? 02:21
guifa Exactly. I came towards it because of some work I was doing on NLP
being able to represent, say [noun, singular] [adjective, neuter AND ends in -o] 02:22
or perhaps 02:23
more concretely for what I was helping a friend search for: [noun, singular, feminine] .*? [verb, copular, singular] .*? [adjective, neuter AND ends in -o]
codesections is this for nlp without machine learning? 02:25
raydiak . 02:26
oops
moon-child .. 02:27
codesections ...
raydiak codesections: cool, consider it done. I'll have it reported within the next 24 hours
very funny y'all :) 02:28
codesections raydiak++
moon-child guifa: cool!
also reminds me of j, which has a state machine builtin www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/d332.htm
raydiak codesections: happy to help. I miss being more active here, so thanks for letting me do at least one little thing 02:30
codesections moon-child: wow, _that_ is something I hadn't heard of before. (And might be the first thing I've heard about J that would make even a modern APL programmer jealous!) 02:32
moon-child honestly I think apl and j are mostly at parity at this point. Dyalog stole most of j's innovations (as well as the primary implementor...), doing some of them better (like under), but j still seems to have the better ecosystem 02:34
and it's oss 02:35
codesections yeah, that's the big hangup with Dyalog for sure
not _just_ the license part of it, but also the whole ecosystem/mindset that goes with it. E.g., their docs talk a lot about generating output into Excel without saying anything about printing to stdout 02:37
moon-child yeah
I think the next version is _finally_ supposed to have support for running scripts
guifa codesections: yeah, mainly corpus searching / processing 02:43
Asturian has very little work done so far, so I’m going to basically build my NLP chops up with it, beginning with the most important (and easiest) tools and moving from there 02:44
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codesections very cool/interesting 02:57
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jmerelo m: my \ñ = 3; say ñ ≤ 05:21
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Missing required term after infix
at <tmp>:1
------> 3my \ñ = 3; say ñ ≤7⏏5<EOL>
expecting any of:
prefix
term
jmerelo 5️⃣
m: my \ñ = 3; say ñ ≤ 5️⃣ 05:22
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
'5️⃣' is not a valid number
at <tmp>:1
------> 3my \ñ = 3; say ñ ≤ 5️⃣7⏏5<EOL>
jmerelo releasable6: status 05:33
releasable6 jmerelo, Next release in ≈2 days and ≈13 hours. 2 blockers. 0 out of 175 commits logged (⚠ 1 warnings)
jmerelo, Details: gist.github.com/b743c098c0d3cb4bf2...85da37e546
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raydiak m: do say state $ = "foo" 07:31
camelia (Any)
raydiak bisectable6: do say state $ = "foo"
bisectable6 raydiak, Will bisect the whole range automagically because no endpoints were provided, hang tight
raydiak, ¦6c (52 commits): «(Any)␤»
raydiak, Nothing to bisect!
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pmurias codesections: re devirtualisation Rakudo uses method caches, so most of the time it is not doing multidispatch but just a lookup in a method hash (like js does) 07:40
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pmurias codesections: my line of though is that Raku is a lot closer to JS than to C++ (which seems to be the main webassembly target) in terms of what the JIT needs to optimize 07:42
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PimDaniel \o 09:21
tellable6 2021-04-13T20:45:12Z #raku <El_Che> PimDaniel: rakudo-pkg can be installed next to rakudo supplied by the OS if you want to
PimDaniel .tell El_Che I could install rakudo-pkg and i do not have yet any problem. 09:23
tellable6 PimDaniel, I'll pass your message to El_Che
PimDaniel .tell El_Che Thank You for your help.
tellable6 PimDaniel, I'll pass your message to El_Che
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PimDaniel .tell lizmat The piece of my code that rised the crash and the error : pastebin.com/LLuC6XPE 10:07
tellable6 PimDaniel, I'll pass your message to lizmat
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PimDaniel .tell lizmat golf tentative did not reproduce but look at the comments at the end of the text : pastebin.com/8a1vCuuz 10:09
tellable6 PimDaniel, I'll pass your message to lizmat
lizmat PimDaniel: discussed this with nwc10 the other day, and have come to the conclusion that what you're doing is "naughty" :-)
but it can be easily fixed by:
for %vmis_pts.keys.eager -> $k 10:10
PimDaniel lizmat ok i know i'm a naughty boy.
lizmat problem is that the hash key iterator does not handle keys being added while it is not exhausted yet
El_Che ok, now itś getting weird :) 10:11
tellable6 2021-04-15T09:23:10Z #raku <PimDaniel> El_Che I could install rakudo-pkg and i do not have yet any problem.
2021-04-15T09:23:44Z #raku <PimDaniel> El_Che Thank You for your help.
lizmat it doesn't go wrong always
El_Che lizmat: I see you went the Parrot memory lane with chromatic on reddit :)
lizmat wasn't that HN ?
El_Che possible
PimDaniel lizmat i knew the code was naughty. I know it is a mistake and i'll not keep this code. But it NOT the subject. 10:12
El_Che weird how raku was mentioned while it's not really related to what happened on perl
lizmat PimDaniel: what is the subject then ? 10:13
PimDaniel The subject is it normal that it leads to a crash? I thought that's what we talked about. 10:14
lizmat being naughty that way *can* lead to a crash
it all depends on how the hash is randomized for that particular run 10:15
El_Che that sounds bad
PimDaniel: make sure to document it if you keep it
lizmat 6guts.wordpress.com/2021/04/15/rak...ispatcher/
El_Che it sound difficult to debug if you don't know about it
PimDaniel And nauthty code is sometimes good to discover bugs. 10:16
lizmat Well, I've been considering making .keys and friends eager by default
but that can have some serious consequences on performance
PimDaniel Once again: i dit yet explain that it was temporary not optimized code just to make tests. 10:19
And the self insertion was in fact a mistake.
You should respect Naughty programmers and bad programmers like me because they can find bugs. 10:21
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sam8 Hey 12:01
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ggoebel_ .tell guifa there is another option at Georgia Tech for old hackers... the university system of georgia's board of regents has a 62 and older program which waives tuition and fees for georgia residents. 12:34
tellable6 ggoebel_, I'll pass your message to guifa
ggoebel_ admission.gatech.edu/non-degree/62...er-program 12:35
demostanis[m] Saying this here as I can't write in #moarvm, it looks like MoarVM/libatomic_ops is outdated, it would be great to either use the original repo or to merge some PRs (such as github.com/ivmai/libatomic_ops/pull/32) 12:37
m6locks ggoebel_: very nice
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MasterDuke demostanis[m]: just took a look at their changelog, looks like 7.6.12 is not released yet (any idea when it will be?) and we're only at 7.6.2 12:41
i guess there's no reason we couldn't try going to 7.6.10 now, we update libuv pretty regularly 12:42
demostanis[m]: why can't you write in #moarvm? 12:44
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demostanis[m] You do not have permission to post to this room. I'm using matrix. 12:45
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jdv79 parrot stuff - blast from the past wow. dan & leo. was a fun read - hn back and forth on it 13:33
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guifa ggoebel_ indeed, that’s actually an option at most places. But… I’m only about half way there in age ;-) 15:33
tellable6 2021-04-15T12:34:35Z #raku <ggoebel_> guifa there is another option at Georgia Tech for old hackers... the university system of georgia's board of regents has a 62 and older program which waives tuition and fees for georgia residents.
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demostanis[m] Can `zef` create a META6.json file for me? 17:48
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demostanis[m] I hate writing JSON 17:52
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raydiak demostanis[m]: zef doesn't, but there is a META6 module for working with meta files from raku, and META6::bin for doing it from the command line, which can also provide a complete skeleton for a new module 18:00
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demostanis[m] Thanks for the answer. Why doesn't zef do this? 18:09
raydiak you're welcome. zef is just a module installer, creating/editing modules and their meta files is outside of its intended scope 18:10
there is a more recent tool called fez, intended to facilitate uploading to the ecosystem, but I don't know if it provides the kind of functionality that META6/META6::bin does. I haven't tried it, personally 18:12
demostanis[m] it would be much helpful. Most language package installers do this, such as npm creating a package.json 18:13
META6::bin seems to have lots of bugs, such as when credentials.username is unset in .gitconfig or when some directory I never heaard about doesn't exist 18:16
codesections we could also do it with a zef plugin -- which is similar to how some languages handle it (e.g., for rust, `cargo add` uses a cargo plugin)
demostanis[m] does one already exist?
codesections not that I know of. But adapting mi6 doesn't seem like a huge lift 18:18
(in theory)
demostanis[m] < matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/downlo...essage.txt >
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raydiak in general, much of the raku ecosystem follows a linux-like philosophy of having a specialized tool for a specific task, rather than monolithic solutions to large problem spaces. many other languages (including perl's cpan and cpanm, last time I used it) are also this way. that said, I'm sure any contributions you care to make in pursuit of your prefered paradigm would be more than welcome, whether that's 18:21
writing a zef plugin or contributing patches to META6::bin
that's right, I forgot about App::MI6 18:23
App::Mi6, I mean
how old is your raku? 18:27
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demostanis[m] <raydiak "in general, much of the raku eco"> That's UNIX philosophy :) 18:52
Implementing the Raku(tm) programming language v6.d. 18:53
Built on MoarVM version 2021.03.
<raydiak "how old is your raku?"> ^
raydiak Thank you for the correction. Not everything in my memory maintains perfect cohesion over the decades of my life. 18:57
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raydiak I'm installing star right now to see if I can reproduce your issue 18:57
demostanis[m] I will read about creating a zef plugin 18:59
Is there any documentation about ti? 19:00
it
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raydiak not that I see right off the bat 19:03
tonyo: ping
.seen tonyo 19:04
tellable6 raydiak, I saw tonyo 2021-04-14T20:17:26Z in #raku: <tonyo> they want to go to a new version and they're going with p7
raydiak oops, where did I see his name? 19:06
tonyo: sorry, wrong person
.seen ugexe
tellable6 raydiak, I saw ugexe 2021-04-14T23:34:07Z in #raku: <ugexe> need to implement^
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dpk guifa: hi, on 31 March we discussed :ignoremark's potentially broken semantics w/r/t graphemes which aren't just a base character + mark (like hangul and emoji flags). you said you'd write up an issue — did you? because if not, i have some time now and could investigate more thoroughly and write up an issue myself 19:12
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raydiak demostanis[m]: multitasking beyond my comfort. forgot to deactivate rakubrew before installing and using star, had to start all over. almost there 19:25
guifa dpk: I did. I’ve been discussing it with samcv as well (she’s the maintainer for basically all of the unicode stuff). We’ve got some ideas, but the main thing is if we’re going to make a change now, we want to make sure it’s the right one 19:26
it’s much better to say “in Raku(do) v. X and below, :ignoremark used only the base character. As of v. Y, ignoremark ignores a, b, c, which are defined by i, j, k.” than to try to fiddle with it over multiple versions 19:28
dpk yep, agreed
good to hear! is there a GitHub issue i can subscribe to or something or is this discussion happening in camera?
codesections (I'm not really following this discussion, but dpk++ for the use of the phrase 'in camera' :D ) 19:30
guifa sure. github.com/Raku/problem-solving/issues/276
one thing I’m thinking about right (and it’s not in that thread) is restricting :ignoremark to use the Unicode-defined diacritics. But that *will* ignore some Mn and *does* include some non-M 19:31
and so then perhaps we could do anything classed as both Mark *and* Diacritic. But that’s just a current idea and there may still be other better avenues for handling it intelligently 19:34
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raydiak demostanis[m]: yes, I do encounter the same issue, in both star and a rakubrew installation 19:38
brtastic What are all those happy faces in Raku docs? :D 19:53
guifa :D means “defined"
brtastic aah :D thanks
guifa sub foo (Str:D $a) { … } <— have to pass a defiend string 19:54
sub foo (Str:U $a) { … } <— have to pass an undefined string (basically, a type object for Str or a subclass)
sub foo (Str:_ $a) { … } <— explicitly don’t care (but that’s the default so there’s no real reason to ever use it, except maybe to indicate that you *really* do accept both if you’re strongly typing) 19:55
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moon-child what's the difference between :D and :D:? 19:55
codesections and, since they _do_ look so much like happy faces, they're known as "type smileys" in the docs 19:56
guifa :D: is actually two separate things
[:D][:] == [defined][previous entry is invocant]
moon-child right 19:57
guifa sometimes it can just make code clearer to use something other than self, so 19:58
method foo(\this:D :) { … } # java style instant method
method foo(\this:U :) { … } # java style static method 19:59
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guifa the *really* cool thing about this though is … 19:59
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brtastic I don't really get Str:U, an undefined string? 20:00
guifa brtastic: correct.
For instance, if you type an array, and request an item out of bounds, you get an undefined Str
moon-child m: multi foo(Str:D $a) { say "You passed me $a" }; multi foo(Str:U) { say "WTF man" }; my Str $x; foo $x 20:01
camelia WTF man
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brtastic ah okay, that makes sense 20:02
codesections m: my Str $s; dd $s.WHAT # Anything typed will be an undefined of that type before it's assigned
camelia Str
guifa You can also sometiems pass just a type for other reasons
parv m: multi foo(Str:D $a) { say "You passed me $a" }; multi foo(Str:U) { say "WTF man" }; my $x; foo $x
camelia Cannot resolve caller foo(Any:U); none of these signatures match:
(Str:D $a)
(Str:U)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
guifa Imagine you have a converter class that reads in several files in one format and dumps them in another. 20:03
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guifa sub convert(Format:U $in, Format:U $out, IO::Path @files) { … } 20:04
brtastic m: my Str $test; say $test.defined
camelia False
brtastic that's pretty cool 20:05
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guifa m: class X { method replace(X:D $self is rw:) { $self = "X is gone" } }; my $x = X.new; say $x; $x.replace; say $x; 20:09
camelia X.new
X is gone
guifa ^^ you can actually wholesale replace and object if it’s in a writable container
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brtastic I'd like to have a keyword like 'has', that would change a bit how a class works by changing its static state. What should I look at? 20:44
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lizmat m: role A[$foo] { method foo() { $foo} }; class B does A[42] { }; dd B.foo 20:46
camelia 42
lizmat m: role A[$foo] { method foo() { $foo} }; class B does A[666] { }; dd B.foo
camelia 666
lizmat brtastic ^^ something like that ? 20:47
docs.raku.org/language/objects#ind...ized_Roles
brtastic lizmat: That would do, but I'd like to have much more than just a single parameter, so not the best place to put the parameters I think 20:49
lizmat you can haz any number of positional or named parameters 20:50
it follows signature rules
m: role A[:$foo] { method foo() { $foo} }; class B does A[foo => 666] { }; dd B.foo
camelia 666
brtastic I'm a bit worried about it being unreadable though
what I want is really to try to reimplement my form parsing perl module in raku as a learning excercise 20:51
codesections I'm not sure what precisely you have in mind by 'static state' brtastic, but classes can have `my` variables that are static 20:52
guifa ^^ I was just aobut to suggest that
El_Che raku's OO is a lot reacher than core perl and the many CPAN modules implementing OO. Maybe a 1 to 1 conversion is not the best approach 20:53
brtastic I'd like to be able to say something like: form-has and follow with a definition of a form field 20:54
guifa m: class A { my $instances = 0; method reset { $instances = 0 }; method new { $instances++; self.bless }; method instances { $instances } }; my @a = A.new xx 10; say A.instances; A.reset; say A.instances;
camelia 10
0
brtastic I understand static variables in classes with 'my', I guess what I'm really asking is how to create this kind of syntactic sugar in raku. I can just make a method that will be defining the fields and force to reimplement it, but in perl I was able to create a helper that would make it possible to create fields much like class attributes. It was done by messing with the symbol table though 20:59
here: metacpan.org/source/BRTASTIC/Form-...iny.pm#L96 21:00
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demostanis[m] <raydiak "demostanis: yes, I do encounter "> Sorry for the late answer. What can be done? 21:05
MasterDuke brtastic: maybe create a slang that adds a new scope_declarator? 21:07
guifa MasterDuke: could probably even avoid that with a simple sub that’s used in composing the class too 21:08
and just using a little bit of .^add_method and ^.add_attribute perhaps
brtastic I'm really a beginner, so if you could point me to documentation pages that I should read that would be great 21:12
guifa brtastic: I guess what would be most helpful for us (to help you) is if you give us a mock up of both the class and how you’re intended to add the fields. I never did much OO perl so I admit looking at the code you linked to I didn’t entirely follow your end-goal. While I did a lot of non-OO perl, there are some others on here who can help who don’t have the same perl background but are excellent with Raku 21:16
docs.raku.org/type/Metamodel::ClassHOW <— docs on making classes through code 21:18
It’s not a tutorial fashion, though, but as a quick tip, all of those methods can be shortened to .^foo (which is short for .HOW.foo) 21:19
brtastic would that help? metacpan.org/pod/release/BRTASTIC/...d#SYNOPSIS form_field declares a new form field, as opposed to Moose's 'has', which declares a class attribute just like in raku
so I can mix has and form_field to have both form fields and attributes in classes
what I want to achieve is pretty much what's in SYNOPSIS, but in Raku's class 21:20
guifa Aaah, okay. So there’s a couple of different approaches.
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guifa lemme do a quick mock up of a few 21:21
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[Coke] I think jnthn released a module with that sort of syntactic sugar. 21:30
github.com/jnthn/oo-monitors
that's using 'monitor' to replace 'class', but it'll get you started, I think. 21:31
guifa ^^ that’s probably the long term best way to do it, although EXPORTHOW IIRC isn’t fully specced yet? 21:33
codesections EXPORTHOW is what Red uses, right? 21:35
guifa Yeah 21:36
TBH despite not being fully documented, given that both Red, OO::Monitors and Cro use it…
If you don’t want to deal with EXPORTHOW, here’s a “poor man’s” version of doing it: tio.run/##rZCxDoJADIZ3nqIYFUiQ0eFQ...PyvUNiXd8A 21:37
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brtastic [Coke]: guifa: Okay I'll take a look at this, thanks a lot 21:42
guifa (FWIW when I mention those modules using the EXPORTHOW, Red and Cro are both stand-out modules that will have long-term influence on other modules and how people use Raku. So you can feel safe to use what they’re doing for the most part and not worry) 21:43
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brtastic Yes I've seen Cro and heard about Red, so I'll look at their source code for the reference if the EXPORTHOW documentation won't be enough :P 21:45
lizmat guifa: why CALLER:: ?
or is that cargo culted ?
guifa lizmat: because $?CLASS won’t be available in the sub. There’s not a $*CLASS is there? 21:47
lizmat hmmm...
feels to me it should be able to run that at compile time...
hmm
nm me
codesections odd, that tio.run link isn't working for me 21:51
guifa codesections: maybe IRC cut it off somehow
bit.ly/3uRaTqI
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codesections ty that works 21:52
guifa (although I suppose in this case, you’d want to store the form fields into a hash or something instead of directly creating methods) 21:54
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