November -- doing stuff in Perl 6 in the months before Christmas. <november-wiki.org> <github.com/viklund/november> <irclog.perlgeek.de/november-wiki> <nopaste.snit.ch>
Set by moderator on 5 December 2008.
12:55 masak joined 13:08 ihrd joined
ihrd HAI masak! 13:08
what abot server update? 13:09
I catch and fix my stupid bug with index
so, I think we are ready
our server really deprecate
masak HAI ihrd 13:12
viklund has the keys to the server update.
I have to do it in his presence. 13:13
and I'd like to port the new p5w skin first.
(which is a few day's work)
viklund and I will probably meet on Tuesday.
let's preliminarily set that as our server update date. 13:14
ihrd hm. I think we should do skins changable 13:17
frankly speaking I like our now works skin 13:18
I do something to it (do you see I add right side?), and will do more
when new html template have done 13:19
so, please, do not just remove old skin from the master 13:21
masak right 13:22
I was going to talk to you about some of the new additions
I've not really looked closely at them
but I feel some of them may noe remain as fixed components
I've been thinking about a system of pluggable UI components on the page, for easier design of skins 13:23
ihrd: it's very important to me that the default skin of November (and on the web page) looks good. our current skin doesn't look good enough.
ihrd so. I will do simple skin turner, because I like old skin :) 13:26
about plugins -- yes we need it. 13:27
masak ihrd: viklund is working on that.
ihrd and what about my changes, what you exactly unlike? 13:28
Recent changed?
masak ihrd: yes. not exactly 'dislike', but I haven't gotten used to it yet. 13:31
ihrd please, install p6w November on you local server and look at! 13:32
masak I will.
ihrd by the way I think it is really should be plug able 13:33
masak ihrd: we agree, then.
ihrd: it's just that I'd like a 'standard' edition of November to be clutter-free 13:34
both tags and the little recent-changes view add clutter.
I very much like those two features as optional plugins.
ihrd I can understand that 13:35
oh, tags is noise for you too?
masak and also, were I to be your boss (which I'm not) I would tell you to work on the more basic features of the wiki, like page history and diffs :)
ihrd: yes, tags is noise for me.
ihrd :(
masak ihrd: but I appreciate your effort.
ihrd: you are the project's most productive programmer, without contest. 13:36
ihrd I like to see who create and edit page
masak ihrd: I'm sometimes thinking about what you could acheive if you attacked the _real_ problems :)
ihrd I like to see related pages 13:37
masak ihrd: yes, that's all good too.
especially the first one.
ihrd for my It should be by default
masak "related pages" should probably be its own page, just like history and diffs
ihrd argh, If you look on the my commits you find many tests and bugfixes too. I attaked real problems. First time I just think I should do additional things, because core do you and viklund. 13:40
I start from fix cookies and other CGI.pm stuff
masak ihrd: yes, I know your fixed bugs. I'm not trying to belittle that either. I'm talking about work on new features. 13:43
ihrd: but I realize this is all just a question of different priorities and goals. and we haven't talked very much about that so far. 13:44
ihrd so I do Tags next because find it in todo and think it is cloase from other stuff, so I can`t disturb you in core part
masak s/your/you've/
ihrd: indeed.
it was in the file LOOKINTO, I noticed that a couple of days ago. 13:45
ihrd Dispatch and URI i take for the same resons
masak yes. I'm 100% positive about those two additions, btw. 13:46
it's mostly the graphical aspects of some additions that I think we need to consider.
(and whether to have them turned on by default)
I'll be afk for half an hour. 13:51
afk &
ihrd lh5.ggpht.com/_p10BUDfS_eU/STqEnrXY...vember.png 13:58
zarah ihrd's link is also tinyurl.com/6m7l7o
ihrd this is how november looks on my server
thank you zarah
masak: another question, answer plz when you are return 14:02
masak: I think when we have one class in one file we should use `class Foo;` instead of `class Foo {}` 14:03
masak: are you agree?
masak is back 14:30
ihrd: yes, I agree.
the question is what to do with files that also have grammars in them.
IIRC, currently the bahaviour for a class with a grammar inside is undefined. 14:31
re the earlier question about new features: I think there are two forces at work here. I thought about this during my walk to the sushi place.
One: the TODO file for me is docs/FEATURES, which outlines what I consider to be a wiki, in three layers of decreasing importance. I consider that our equivalent to a time line. I don't think I've mentioned that enough. 14:33
right now, p5w does everything in the first and second layers. p6w does everything in the first and some things in the second.
when p6w does everything in all three layers, I'll be willing to consider it "1.0" or whatever. 14:34
I really should be more clear on this goal.
Two: it's a psychological thing: when I look at the HTML output from p6w and notice that something has changed (as I did with the recent-changes change), I instinctively go "oh now, what has happened now?" 14:35
it's not a question about whether the change is good or bad, it's a question about which new dependencies it creates to the core and to the data model, and how that affects my half-formulated thoughts about the future of the wiki. 14:37
it's really not a good idea to be thinking like I do in an open-source project, and I think the cure is communication and agreement.
it would be nice if you'd turn up on IRC more often, for examlpe, ihrd
mail is a bit too slow for design talk.
EORAMBLE
14:38 p6eval joined
ihrd masak: ok, I commited changes for ::Storage and ::Storage::File 14:38
that about class Foo; and class Foo { ... }
masak aye.
goodie.
I think the former way of writing it is preferable, because one saves one level of indentation. 14:39
ihrd I learning English, today I understand English better then when we start to work
masak ihrd++
I should focus more on my Russian.
ihrd by the way it is still a complicated to my fast answer and fast (and right) understand some ome in IRC 14:40
masak ihrd: I understand that. 14:41
if it's writing that is the problem, please consider replying in Russian.
(but today, you seem to have had no problem at all, from my perspective.) 14:42
ihrd o, I just use dictionary :)
masak yes, that seems wise.
I will try to use words that can only mean one thing. 14:43
:)
ihrd but you are right :) I do not use google translate, this is progress :)))
masak 哈哈
ihrd ok, that`s just about why I dose not used IRC offen. 14:44
masak ihrd: re "her" in the tests, I understand the joke after your explanation. I think it's alright this time, but I would advise you to avoid strong words in code in the future. someone might get offended. :)
ihrd o, no, хŠµŃ€ is not so strong word in Russian 14:46
masak ihrd: it means what, 'fuck'?
14:47 p6eval joined
ihrd hm... хуŠ¹ -- fuck 14:47
but хŠµŃ€ is old word
masak I think even a mild variant of 'fuck' might be offensive to some people.
I would not hesitate to edit away bad words in English, even mild ones. 14:48
ihrd may be. Dictionary only know хŠµŃ€ is old name for letter х
and game in another definition 14:49
game with X and 0
a think you no it
masak aye
tic-tac-toe
ihrd woow 14:50
masak or maybe 'five in a row', depends
ihrd be the way peoples use хŠµŃ€ im phrase look like хŠµŃ€ тŠµŠ±Šµ it means
...
something like "I do not do what you want" 14:51
with very strong position, and a offence 14:52
ok, I thing this is all about хŠµŃ€
excuse my if Insult you be using 14:53
another November-related question
I start to create save_page test
because I fix bug in it, and found we have no test for that 14:54
and I nedd all /data structure for that test
masak ihrd: you haven't insulted me. but I think my job is to care for the 'integrity' of the source code. all aspects of it.
ihrd: um. I don't think that tests should modify data/ 14:55
that sounds wrong to me.
ihrd but as you now with index
masak um. that sounds wrong, too. :)
ihrd oh, of course, it use it`s own data
:)
masak ah. 14:56
oki, good.
just don't commit tempfiles to git, but ignore them instead.
ihrd you remove t/storage/data for index
masak s/ignore/git-ignore/
ihrd: yes, it kept showing up in my `git status` 14:57
ihrd yes, I just try to say exatcly this
masak nod.
ihrd brrr
masak cold? :)
ihrd we need dirs structure data
masak how so? 14:58
ihrd cold too
so, we need empty data dir, with empty articlse dir etc 14:59
but we cant do that in the git
so, we can create it, but it is platform-depended
mb we should just but blnk files in thet dirs? and do not remove it? 15:00
masak aye
ihrd but if we do so, we will in trouble if test falls without clean it
masak ihrd: that's why we should git-ignore the file too 15:01
ihrd we can do both?
masak sure.
ihrd: I just sent you a Christmas gift: it's a board game called Druid, implemented in Perl 6.
ihrd ( ) 15:02
8( ) i mean
masak what does that mean?
ihrd Woooow! 15:04
masak :)
ihrd that is smile
masak I thought you'd like it :)
the game rules are copyrighted, otherwise I would have put it in the Pugs repo. 15:05
it's fun to play
ihrd you can see my eyes and how mach go down my jaw 15:06
masak aha.
ihrd hm... but how to play?
masak hold on.
ihrd I do not see help
masak www.gamerz.net/pbmserv/druid.html
zarah masak's link is also tinyurl.com/4apdb
masak ihrd: the game is not exactly "done" yet.
for example, it doesn't check for winning conditions.
ihrd o, i reading manual 15:10
masak I've been trying to reach the game inventor and ask him if I can release the game under a free licence. so far, no reply.
ihrd it is bad, I hope he is answered 15:12
masak ihrd: I will find him somehow. maybe I just have old email addresses.
ihrd ok 15:14
I found in manual I can put three roks on two 15:15
masak aye, in some situations
ihrd does it implemented?
masak aye.
ihrd I need to put center last?
masak check out the method input_valid_move for details. 15:16
it contains a trick I inted to blog about.
ihrd: no, the syntax is 'b2-b4'
ihrd a!
yep, it is works 15:17
that is cool!
masak ihrd: I can reacomment reading through the whole source. I much enjoyed writing that, and found a few idioms along the way. 15:18
moritz_ in case you haven't followed p5p: chip proposed named params on subroutines for Perl 5.12
masak moritz_: ooh, 5.12.
moritz_: did anyone propose junctions and metaclasses? :)
moritz_ lol no, not seriously 15:19
ihrd we have junction in p5 as module 15:22
moritz_ which isn't maintained anymore
ihrd and meta in Moose :)
masak ihrd: da, ya znayu. 15:23
ihrd it is just works, when I try it
masak ihrd: what just works? Moose?
moritz_ Junctions are very nice, but they are low on my "Perl 6 features that I want to see ported to Perl 5" list
ihrd masak: хŠ¾Ń€Š¾ŃˆŠ¾
masak moritz_: I don't use Perl 5 very much in my daily work. I think I use Perl 6 more nowadays. 15:24
ihrd named param in p5 -- that is cool
I thing full signature too? 15:25
I see something like that in news, but I do not followed p5p
moritz_ they propose something similar to Method::Signatures in core 15:26
ihrd yes, I see that module. So that is cool 15:29
masak moritz_: I started in on S12 yesterday. I believe I can do much good there, both in the Perl 6 test suite and in the RT system. 15:32
my only real enemy right now is Lack of Time. 15:33
moritz_ masak: YaY
masak for example, I have to go in 20 minutes. :/ 15:35
moritz_ :( 15:37
masak I'll be back before midnight, though. 15:43
ihrd, moritz_: in the meantime, ponder this idea. I've been thinking about turning the druid game into a distributed client. do you think it'd be a good idea to identify moves using a git-like system, e.g. SHA-1 hashkeys? 15:45
ihrd I thinking about using git for store data in my game 15:46
I think it is good idea
masak all the ongoing games'd be stored in a ~/.druid file, and starting the client with an SHA-1 key received, say, by mail, would be recognized as making a move in one of the games.
ihrd yes
moritz_ masak: nice idea. That way you can easily build a distributed database that collects all possible moves, and thus if you have enough players, they'll solve the game for you ;-)
masak moritz_: well, that is given that you don't factor in user details into the haskeys to make them truly unique :) 15:47
moritz_ aye ;) 15:48
masak (which I'd probably want to do, otherwise two identical games cannot be played at the same time)
masak has to go 15:50
nice to talk to you both.
see you around.
16:19 ihrd left 19:35 Hellow joined 19:36 Hellow left 20:51 masak joined
masak is back 20:52
jhorwitz++ 20:59
moritz_ indeed 22:07
masak stevey: "I've found that JavaScript is a language that smart people like. It's weird, but I keep meeting really really smart people, folks who (unlike me) are actually intelligent, and they like JavaScript." 22:31
the same could be said for Perl 6, I sometimes feel.

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