Topic for #parrot is: Parrot 3.3.0 released | parrot.org | Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today
Set by moderator on 20 April 2011.
cotto_work whiteknight: you can look at the dir structure of previous version in docs.parrot.org 00:08
whiteknight yeah, that's what I'm doing 00:09
cotto_work can you get into parrotvm fine?
whiteknight if this were better documented, we wouldn't need any forensics
yes
thanks
cotto_work great
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cotto_work It's nice to not be the only one who can do that. 00:09
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whiteknight what kinds of permissions do I have on this box? 00:17
cotto_work You should have enough to update docs.parrot.org and not too much more 00:18
you can look at the trac config and probably lots of other stuff
whiteknight I don't have the ability to update the symlinks for latest and supported
it doesn't look like I'm a member of the parrot group 00:19
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cotto_work You should be able to do that. Can you delete and create the symlinks? 00:20
whiteknight yes, I can 00:21
and did
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cotto_work ok 00:25
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cotto_work goes home 00:42
soh_cah_toa what's the deal w/ the pbc_to_exe error? rohit_nsit08 had it before and so did i after a 'git pull'. what's causing this? 00:47
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whiteknight what pbc_to_exe error? 01:09
soh_cah_toa whiteknight: when building parrot 3.3.0 01:12
whiteknight: remember? you told him to 'make realclean' and rebuild 01:13
whiteknight oh, did you make realclean and reconfigure? 01:18
soh_cah_toa whiteknight: oh yeah, i got it to build. i'm just curious as to what's causing this b/c before it sounded like this error was happening quite often
whiteknight we can look at it later. I'm heading to bed now 01:25
soh_cah_toa whiteknight: sure, see you later
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dalek TT #2097 closed by jkeenan++: darwin/ppc build failure once gms is default GC 02:04
TT #2097: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/2097
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cotto ~ 03:04
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mikehh apport pkg is still failing 07:22
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mikehh bah - wrong channel 07:22
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dalek p/ctmo: 0fbd19a | moritz++ | src/ops/nqp.ops:
track a parrot function rename.

Enables building nqp on newer parrots		 09:40
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dalek p/ctmo: 8b1d3e1 | moritz++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
remove two Q:PIR blocks from NQP::Actions
 09:58
p/ctmo: f837f1c | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
Should have a $?PACKAGE in the initial scope. Fixes 09-var.t regression.
 10:09
p/ctmo: 42601fe | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
Fix a couple of bugs that broke 33-init.t.
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moritz nqp: say(1 // 2); 10:13
p6eval nqp: OUTPUTĀ«1ā¤Ā»
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dalek p/ctmo: 4d845cd | moritz++ | src/NQP/Grammar.pm:
be a bit more idiomatic in NQP::Grammar; no functional changes
 10:29
p/ctmo: 57fa673 | moritz++ | src/HLL/Compiler.pm:
rewrite version string initialization with less PIR
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dalek p/ctmo: 5a5392e | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
Install (what will be the) latest merged GLOBAL view. This unbreaks some uses of $GLOBAL::foo (and thus some of 43-package-var.t).
 10:43
p/ctmo: 51ea2f3 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/ (2 files):
Make sure we can always see the current $*GLOBALish.
bacek www.google.com/search?q=judgement+d...il+21+2011 10:51
good night, humans
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lucian aloha: tell whiteknight this is the level of granularity i was thinking of when we last talk about concurrency packages.python.org/greenlet/ 12:11
aloha lucian: Okay.
lucian waves hello
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dalek p/ctmo: 46e3495 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
A little refactor to the symbol lookup code to make it neater.
 12:37
p/ctmo: 3008506 | jonathan++ | src/ (2 files):
First cut of package auto-viv using the new package scheme. Enabled just for variable accesses in lexical packages for now.
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whiteknight good morning, #parrot 13:06
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dalek p/ctmo: c789496 | jonathan++ | src/ (3 files):
Install our-scoped classes at compile time, and make sure the installation is reinstated during deserialization. An our-scoped package inside a lexically scoped package now ends up installed in the right way. However, nothing does lookups of anything other than variables this way yet...
 13:28
p/ctmo: 9708e54 | jonathan++ | src/Regex (2 files):
Set up a fake GLOBALish in the PIR Regex library.
p/ctmo: 7756ef8 | jonathan++ | src/stage0/ (7 files):
Update the bootstrap with the new package installation logic. Seems to work out OK.
lucian whiteknight: aloha seems to have amnesia. packages.python.org/greenlet/ 13:30
this is the sort of granularity i think is necessary (from an API p.o.v.) to simulate mostly any concurrency 13:31
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whiteknight good morning lucian 13:38
lucian_ 'morning 13:39
well, good afternoon
lucian is my ghost since my ISP kicked me in the teeth
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whiteknight ISPs are the best, aren't they? 13:41
lucian_ the best at kicking people in the teeth? sure
whiteknight right, that thing you said 13:42
tadzik or not delivering their services for 3 months and threatening you with courts for not paying .30 PLN another 3 months after breaking the agreement? Hell yeah
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whiteknight I don't understand how firefox can be eating up so much of my RAM and CPI 13:44
CPU
lucian whiteknight: don't worry, it's normal 13:45
whiteknight it's absurd that simply being open for any length of time slowly eats up all resources
lucian its GCs are very leaky, for one
and it caches things it really shouldn't
XPCOM and XUL are to blame for much of it 13:46
whiteknight I don't know much about either of them
I use chatzilla, so eventually if I want to use my computer again for real productivity stuff, i'm going to have to close that too
lucian i know much more than i'd like too about both ... 13:47
(Browse, Sugar's browser, embeds xulrunner with pyxpcom & hulahop. dreadful)
whiteknight actually, that's happening now. brb
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atrodo whiteknight> I solved that problem: chatzilla.rdmsoft.com/xulrunner/ 13:49
whiteknight ah, so this is what it feels like with an extra gig of free RAM, and 25% of my CPU not tied up
atrodo well, i found a solution to that problem
whiteknight it's like I've never breathed before 13:50
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atrodo Then again, I use App::Bondage to always be on 13:51
lucian atrodo: how intensive is chatzilla on its own for an IRC client? 13:52
atrodo lucian> Not at all. It's at about 75M right now, really doesn't bloat a whole lot 13:53
I think i've only seen it get really large once or twice, but those seemed like odd cases 13:54
lucian i see 13:58
whiteknight I only use chatzilla at work because it's easy to install 14:05
and I only use one chatroom, don't do any DCC crap, etc
lucian whiteknight: you might try pidgin portable or something 14:07
bubaflub on Mac I prefer Colloquy 14:08
lucian uses LimeChat on osx 14:09
oh, this too portableapps.com/apps/internet/pchat_portable 14:10
whiteknight lucian: I don't have any problem with Chatzilla, I'm just going to stick with that here
lucian well, your problem is resource munching 14:11
atrodo likes using telnet for irc and im and http and ssh
that last one gets tricky somedays 14:12
whiteknight I have to keep firefox open for very long periods of time for it to eat that many resources 14:13
I've had it open since Monday morning
lucian heh. are you in a position to switch browsers? 14:14
atrodo I usually have to restart it about every day, but then again, I do web dev, so I stress it a little more than most
whiteknight I'm annoyed that it grows without bounds, though the rate of growth is not prohibitive
atrodo: I do web dev too
atrodo Oh, neat, didn't know that
whiteknight although I open other instances of firefox for intensive testing
lucian i tend to use chrome pretty much exclusively these days 14:15
rarely do i need firefox
whiteknight lucian: I'm not interested in switching browsers, not yet anyway
atrodo I have come to the conclusion that firefox doens't like javascript that misbehaves. Those expiremental days seem to make it grow more than normal
lucian atrodo: its JS gc is among the crappier, yes 14:16
atrodo Chrome has some weird bugs, plus it's tools are not as good as firebug
although, i think i saw firebug has a chrome version now
lucian> The problems don't seem to be GC so much as bad javascript (exceptions) 14:17
lucian atrodo: hmm. exceptions objects need to be collected too, i guess 14:24
well, i just know its various GCs are bad, from being bitten by them
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cotto ~~ 14:49
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dukeleto ~~ 15:21
bubaflub morning dukeleto 15:22
dukeleto bubaflub: how goes it?
bubaflub dukeleto: not bad; just workin' and what not. how are you?
dukeleto bubaflub: just woke up to a sunny day in Portland 15:24
davidfetter dukeleto, wow! 15:26
davidfetter woke up to a sunny day in oakland, but this is not so unusual ;)
dukeleto davidfetter: indeed
davidfetter well, it wasn't quite sunny when i woke up, but it is now
dukeleto davidfetter: i hope to learn about PGXN later today and do some PL/Parrot hacking with theory 15:29
davidfetter dukeleto, PGXN and EXTENSIONs in general, are pretty awesome 15:30
PGXN took some important lessons from CPAN :)
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dukeleto interesting language based on ruby-llvm : github.com/rferraz/spell 15:32
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theory dukeleto: Right on. 15:57
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dalek p/ctmo: cc282da | jonathan++ | src/ (3 files):
Move symbol installation code into the grammar; needs to happen earlier than it's currently doing, but also this'll help to better parse without doing the actions too.
 16:14
p/ctmo: de0e355 | jonathan++ | src/metamodel/how/NQPClassHOW.pm:
Add a way to set the default parent class in NQPClassHOW, to try and help resolve a circular dependency.
p/ctmo: 4371629 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
Use set_default_parent from actions.
p/ctmo: 7e325a4 | jonathan++ | src/Regex/Cursor.pir:
Cursor calls set_default_parent.
p/ctmo: dc42c1e | jonathan++ | src/stage0/ (7 files):
Update bootstrap.
p/ctmo: a4e9240 | jonathan++ | src/Regex/Cursor.pir:
Cursor locates NQPMu lexically in the setting.
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jnthn__ Anyway know what happens if you supply multiple --library= arguments to Parrot? 16:26
Will it use the order that they were passed as its search order?
dukeleto jnthn__: good question 16:27
jnthn__: i doubt we have a test for that
whiteknight I suspect they stack
moritz is there an easy way to print the library search path? 16:28
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jnthn__ My situation is that I have a bootstrapping compiler. At the start of each stage it compiles a "setting" (standard library, essentially) 16:30
cotto_work ~~ 16:31
jnthn__ From that point on I want it to use the previous stage in the bootstrap for most things, but find the "setting" from a different place
whiteknight moritz: There probably is a way to get the array of search paths from the interp. I would need to look at it 16:33
jnthn__ Maybe stacking library paths ain't really the way to do it though, now I think more about it.
whiteknight they are definitely stored in the iglobals array
jnthn__ Hmm
jnthn__ takes a little break from the hacking to work out what he really needs
dalek p/ctmo: e65afd7 | jonathan++ | src/HLL/Actions.pm:
Make actual values of symbols in the setting available to the compiler. Will be useful for all sorts of stuff. :-)
whiteknight look in frontends/parrot/main.c:parseflags or whatever it's called to see, but I suspect it's stacked 16:40
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cotto_work php-- 17:14
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whiteknight what's wrong with it? 17:17
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whiteknight VisualBasic-- 17:22
cotto_work its nature
dukeleto cotto_work: no comment ;) 17:23
cotto_work a self-hosted php compiler will be an interesting endeavor
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dukeleto interesting is a word 17:30
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whiteknight I don't think a self-hosted PHP compiler would be too big a problem. 18:02
bubaflub whiteknight: are most of the PHP functions written in PHP or are they C? i think fleshing out the core library might be difficult 18:05
cotto_work The compiler doesn't scare me too much. The massive mess of builtin functions will be a lot of work. 18:11
bubaflub cotto_work: precisely my point - the language and syntax are fairly straightforward, but the thousand of global functions might not be so easy to handle 18:12
whiteknight yeah, that's definitely the hard part 18:13
but then again, if we have PHP syntax we can avoid the huge mess of builtins and provide our own awesome runtime
with double awesome
or we can have a "compatability mode" to add in a more familar runtime instead 18:14
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dukeleto whiteknight: blarg. Org admins have to make hard decisions. 18:58
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dukeleto jrt4__: welcome 19:08
whiteknight dukeleto: he's been trying extremely hard to find a mentor, apparently 19:14
dukeleto whiteknight: i just asked in #gsoc, too 19:18
whiteknight: i am conflicted
whiteknight: i don't want to set up a student to fail, and not having a mentor is kind of like that.
cotto_work Sometimes it just doesn't work. 19:22
jnthn__ gist.github.com/935285 # this patch appears to be a simplification. In theory it should be a tiny bit faster, and break nothing. It also removes a blocker that's in my way with nqp... 19:23
theory Everything is faster in me. 19:24
jnthn__ :P 19:25
benabik jnthn__: I haven't (yet) dug into the guts of PAST::Compiler, but it seems like that would completely change what PAST::Block does if given a namespace. Is the current behavior wrong? 19:32
jnthn__ benabik: I'd argue that it is. 19:33
dukeleto in theory, practice and theory are the same, but in practice, they are different. 19:34
dukeleto just wanted to bother theory
benabik dukeleto: Don't you mean practice?
theory kicks dukeleto
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dukeleto jnthn__: does the parrot test suite pass with that patch? what behavior does it change? 19:35
whiteknight suspects "theory" only picked that username for the lulz 19:36
dukeleto jnthn__: we can apply it, as long as it doesn't subtley break other HLL's
theory whiteknight: No, that was a pleasant side-effect.
jnthn__ dukeleto: testing at the moment... 19:37
dukeleto jnthn__: coolio
jnthn__: i would recommend "make fulltest" to make sure
jnthn__ *nod* 19:38
tbh it looks like it was some kind of workaround.
Maybe for another issue that is long gone.
whiteknight if the patch provides behavior which is more correctish than what we have now, and causes few failures, I'm for it 19:39
what's the blocker?
jnthn__ whiteknight: The inconsistency the patch fixes is that it normally lets you identify a sub outside of a namespace by subid, which is going to be unique. 19:40
But inside of a namespace it doesn't look it up by subid.
whiteknight oh. I wonder why it wouldn't use subid inside the ns? That seems weird
jnthn__ Right, to me too.
I mean, imagine you wanted to use this to identify a multi candidate uniquely. 19:41
It's odd that if the multi lived in a namespace, this'd break.
PerlJam maybe there was a time when subids weren't globally unique?
moritz fulltests and rakudo tests
jnthn__ PerlJam: But that could equally apply to things outside of a namespace too... 19:42
whiteknight okay, I'm sold. Apply the damn patch already!
full speed ahead and damn the torpedos!
PerlJam is still waiting for rakudo to finish compiling. 19:43
jnthn__ Same ;)
It fixes my nqp issue and passes make test in Parrot.
PerlJam src/gen/core.pm compilation seems to be taking even longer than normal
jnthn__ :/
It completed here. 19:44
I think it just...takes a long time.
PerlJam aye, but I just compiled it for the release and it didn't seem to take this long
oh! there it finished
maybe my subjective time is off because I'm watching it too closely :) 19:45
whiteknight it's like mother always said: a watched rakudo never builds
PerlJam exactly 19:46
moritz # Failed test 'Parrot_PMC_delete_keyed_str'
# at t/src/extend_vtable.t line 343.
# Exited with error code: [SIGNAL 11]
whiteknight blah, that test always fails
cotto_work lta
benabik whiteknight: It stopped failing for a couple of days for me... But then it started again.
whiteknight we should put in an assertion to prove that extend_vtable.t fails. Otherwise, something might be wrong 19:47
moritz recently fixed that one spectest that often failed
cotto_work I don't see the failure.
whiteknight cotto_work: maybe your setup is borked 19:48
moritz cotto_work: do you configure with --gc=gms ?
cotto_work I'm running on a make-believe computer.
benabik jnthn__: It's adding a reference to the sub being built to an enclosing sub? And you're changing it from searching for a global to using the constant table? (Trying to understand the code for GSoC.)
jnthn__ benabik: Yes
cotto_work moritz: it should be running gms. that's the default post 3.3 19:49
moritz \\o/
cotto_work cute hack in that test 19:52
whiteknight moritz: yeah, changing the default GC was the first thing we did post-release 19:53
benabik jnthn__: The old way seems to ignore subid, but now it seems to ignore namespace... Arg, maybe I should leave trying to understand this for when I don't have school projects.
cotto_work That test shouldn't work. It uses an uninitialized string.
whiteknight now that we have GMS as the default and everybody is using it, we can get down to improving and optimizing it
jnthn__ benabik: subid is more specific than namespace+subname.
benabik: That is, at least as unique 19:54
benabik jnthn__: POST actually deals with the namespace and such, this is just a reference... Okay, I think I get it. Thanks. 19:56
whiteknight cotto_work: I want to get together sometime soon and start seriously talking about concurrency
cotto_work: I've got some ideas on what the system could look like that I'm writing up, and want to start seriously bouncing them off people
cotto_work whiteknight: excellent 19:58
Things bounce off of me all the time.
meeting time 19:59
whiteknight what, right now?
dukeleto moritz: you can ignore the extend_vtable tests for now 20:02
it doesn't "always fail", it fails on some combinations of OS's and compilers right now because I merged after the 3.3.0 release and haven't made it pass everywhere yet 20:03
benabik: because I added more tests :)
benabik dukeleto: More tests good. Failing tests bad. I'm torn. ;-)
dukeleto benabik: they are tests which compile C programs, so they are sensitive to OS and compiler. They all pass on my machine :) 20:04
benabik: merging to master is the quickest way to shake out the bugs
and I like breaking master 20:05
dukeleto is a bad bad boy
moritz jnthn__: all rakudo spectests pass with your patch 20:08
jnthn__ zo/
moritz++, PerlJam++
whiteknight commit already! 20:09
dalek rrot: 3c7fb39 | jonathan++ | compilers/pct/src/PAST/Compiler.pir:
Make block references have consistent semantics (always use subid), whether they live in a package or not.
 20:10
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Caelum anyone seen alester? 20:24
Andy_ Yup
Andy_ waves
Caelum hi :)
I'm writing a patch for vim-perl
Andy_ ok
please write a ticket first 20:25
so we can tie the patch or pull request to a ticket.
Caelum the issue is that "sub foo # comment \\n {" does not highlight "# comment" properly
Andy_ That's fine. Just need a ticket.
So I can track history.
Caelum where should the ticket go, github issue? 20:26
Andy_ yes, please
Caelum ok, got it
dalek p/ctmo: c46e9f1 | jonathan++ | src/ (2 files):
Make it possible to specify a path to load the setting from, so we can make sure we get the correct one during the bootstrap procedure.
p/ctmo: 2d19edc | jonathan++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
Bump to latest Parrot to get PCT block ref fix.
p/ctmo: 35c39f0 | jonathan++ | build/Makefile.in:
Use --setting-path flag to make sure we get the correct version of the setting during the bootstrap process.
Caelum Andy_: how would I write a test for this? At first glance, I don't really understand how t/ works in vim-perl
Andy_ We don't have anything that tests the highlighting. 20:27
I'd love if ew did.
Caelum ok, I see
davidfetter upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...on_map.svg ? 20:29
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dalek p/ctmo: 2944b43 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
Add a way to find a lexical that is known at compile time. Use this mechanism for setting the default parent NQPMu. (This is the first use of the mechanism that will let us be able to deal with all of these bits at compile - or in Perlier terms BUILD - time).
 20:40
p/ctmo: 820c806 | jonathan++ | src/metamodel/how/NQPClassHOW.pm:
Remove a workaround.
p/ctmo: 2cab3bf | jonathan++ | / (8 files):
Update the bootstrap with latest changes. Also incorporates a Makefile update, since now the --setting-path is available (and needed) in stage1.
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dalek p/ctmo: 1d737e4 | jonathan++ | src/core/NQPMu.pm:
NQPMu is in the setting and should be lexical (and now all blockers to it being are gone, so it can be).
 20:42
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cotto_work dukeleto: the Parrot_PMC_delete_keyed_str test uses an uninitialized string. That might have something to do with the failures. 20:52
in t/src/extend_vtable.t 20:53
Andy_ Caelum: Got it, thanks. 20:56
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soh_cah_toa cotto_work: hey 21:18
cotto_work soh_cah_toa: hio 21:21
soh_cah_toa cotto_work: is there anything else in the release process that needs to be automated
cotto_work: i'll nopaste what i have so far 21:22
nopaste "soh_cah_toa" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "Automated Release Manager (So Far...)" (240 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/41370 21:23
cotto_work I didn't know we had release_check 21:28
soh_cah_toa cotto_work: it checks that the tarball builds on its own. whiteknight says it also runs 'make fulltest' 21:29
cotto_work nice
that right there takes out a good chunk of the annoyance of a release 21:30
soh_cah_toa yay
what else could i add? i want to automate as much as possible
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cotto_work it doesn't run fulltest though, just test 21:31
soh_cah_toa sure it does
cotto_work soh_cah_toa: have you read through the release manager guide looking for automatable pieces?
soh_cah_toa good idea
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cotto_work thanks for working on this 21:32
soh_cah_toa++
soh_cah_toa sure
tcurtis soh_cah_toa++
moritz one thing I noticed is that you need to update the version in more than one place
that could surely be automated somehow
soh_cah_toa moritz: where else?
cotto_work It's really nice to have a gsoc student who's not focused exclusively on his project, but is actually looking for other ways to improve parrot.
(though I'm sure that'll change once the program starts in earnest) 21:33
soh_cah_toa cotto_work: well, i'd like to stick around afterwards so i got to learn this stuff sometime
moritz soh_cah_toa: on re-skimming the guide it seems it's only one location, and once 'make release VERSION=$version' 21:34
tcurtis soh_cah_toa: which project(s) did you submit a proposal for? I've probably heard it mentioned before but I've since forgotten. 21:35
moritz I remembered either wrong, or a much older version
soh_cah_toa tcurits: the debugger
tcurits: okay, VERSION should be of the form RELEASE_n_n_n? just like git? 21:36
i mean moritz, whoops
cotto_work x.y.z
soh_cah_toa cotto_work: okay
cotto_work make release VERSION=a.b.c (in the release manager guide) 21:37
tcurtis soh_cah_toa: very nice.
soh_cah_toa cotto_work: yeah, it's time i look at that
cotto_work indeed
whiteknight found a piece that needed rewriting while he was cutting the release 21:38
soh_cah_toa cotto_work: i'll ask him. maybe i can take care of it 21:39
bubaflub soh_cah_toa++
cotto_work soh_cah_toa: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/2011-04-19#i_3545579
soh_cah_toa there it is, okay 21:42
soh_cah_toa must go make some coffee now
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dalek p/ctmo: acf33e3 | jonathan++ | / (69 files):
A little reorganization. Move the (NQP-specific) meta-objects out of the metamodel directory, and rename it to 6model, to start to better indicate what is in the 6model core and what is using it. No functional changes.
 22:01
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cotto_work jnthn__: what does 'ctmo' stand for? 22:11
jnthn__ cotto_work: compile time meta-objects 22:15
cotto_work: It's easiest to describe as "the set of enabling refactors for gradual typing". 22:16
cotto_work ok. That makes sense from what you've posted in your blog. 22:18
jnthn__ Yes, finally getting around to actually implementing this stuff. 22:20
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dalek p/ctmo: 3404565 | jonathan++ | src/HLL/Se (2 files):
Start to rename SettingManager to ModuleLoader, and move the current (very minimalistic) module loading to there, in anticipation of expanding it with extra pieces soon.
 23:20
p/ctmo: b5bf667 | jonathan++ | / (3 files):
Start renaming of SettingManager => ModuleManager.
p/ctmo: e3209ee | jonathan++ | src/Regex.pir:
Update a HLL::SettingManager reference in the REgex library.
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dalek p/ctmo: c179b99 | jonathan++ | src/stage0/ (7 files):
Update bootstrap to eliminate HLL::SettingManager usage.
 23:35
p/ctmo: 9863370 | jonathan++ | src/ModuleLoader.pm:
Rip out HLL::SettingManager compat.
p/ctmo: 11717b0 | jonathan++ | build/Makefile.in:
Build SettingManager.pbc as ModuleLoader.pbc as well, so we can transition.
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whiteknight good evening, #parrot 23:48
23:52 kid51 is now known as kid51_at_dinner
dalek p/ctmo: 6201d0d | jonathan++ | / (12 files):
Final cleanup after SettingManager => ModuleLoader changes.
 23:54

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