pugs.blogs.com | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | <stevan> Moose... it's the new Camel ":P | .pmc == PPI source filters!
Set by Alias_ on 16 March 2006.
webmind clkao, good luck 00:06
00:11 weinig joined
azuroth oh, space before postfixes has been scrapped... cool 00:12
00:12 Khisanth joined 00:14 weinig is now known as weinig|out
TimToady azuroth: see "Another dotty idea" in p6l for yet another simplification of postfix syntax that also gives us start/stop comments 00:18
In short $x.#( your ad here ).foo treats .#() as comment and reduces to $x.foo 00:19
unlike # line ending comments, would not count as whitespace.
And we can stop people from asking about nestable comments by providing them. 00:20
00:22 stevan_ joined
azuroth interesting... 00:23
TimToady any delimiter allowed after the .#, by the way, for those readers without access to p6l... 00:25
00:26 marmic_ joined
TreyHarris I'm right about the expected behavior of INIT return, right? sial.org/pbot/16660 returns nothing, but sial.org/pbot/16661 returns 72... they should both return 72, yes? 00:28
azuroth it looks like it 00:31
TimToady don't think so
the pseudo-assignment of a declarator happens at a time determined by the declarator
TreyHarris TimToady: I was following your example of localtime() and mktempfile() in S04... I thought... 00:32
TimToady just happens that "my $x = " happens at execution time, and the first example reduces at INIT time to my $foo = 72;
those just calculate the value at BEGIN or FIRST time, but the assignment is still at execution time. If you want it to happen earlier, 00:34
you have to use "state $foo = " or "constant $foo ="
azuroth S04: s/would require travel back in time/would require traveling back in time/ ?
TimToady which imply FIRST and BEGIN time.
TreyHarris ahh. and in this example, with a lexically hidden counter, I would want 'state'? or would I want "my $counter; BEGIN { $counter =..."? either would work 00:35
TimToady traveling and travel are both nouns, technically
TreyHarris TimToady: you tagmemic. traveling is an N-bar :-) 00:36
TimToady you can also use "my $counter is begin(...)"
I outtagmemificated... 00:37
azuroth "I'm traveling".. hmm, ok. "would require to travel back in time"?
I guess it makes sense as it is. it sounded weird to me at first though
TimToady that one is just a progressive verb. but "require travelling" is a gerund according to the high-school English teacher. 00:38
azuroth yarrg, ok I won't argue! 00:39
TimToady you can't argue with high-school English teachers...
TreyHarris you can tell that travelling is a "gerund" because it takes the genitive for a subject: "require my travelling back in time".
TimToady the travelling is what gets to me... 00:40
the doubling of 'l' in travelling also gets to me...
but then, so does the non-doubling...
neither way looks right to me anymore. 00:41
the perils of being intercultural.
another one ^^^^^
s/ / /
azuroth maybe we should rename traveling to travelere or something 00:42
TreyHarris TimToady: me too. I see too much commonwealth English, and "whilst" and "fulfil" and such creep into my writing
TimToady or we could just pronounce it with the emphasis on the last syllable, which would justify doubling the 'l'.
unless we also lengthen the 'e', in which case it would be one 'l'. 00:43
azuroth yeah, but when was the last time anyone renamed a word? we've gotta have _some_ fun
TreyHarris ok, so "state $x = localtime", $x gets localtime at BEGIN time? but "constant $y = localtime", $y gets localtime at start of first block entry?
TimToady no state happens at FIRST time.
constant happens at BEGIN time. 00:44
we don't really have an INIT time declarator.
TreyHarris ah, got them reversed.
TimToady arguably our could do that, but people are used to assignment semantics there from P5. 00:45
TreyHarris TimToady: I discovered last week that if I teach my Perl class labeled blocks on the same day I mention the named special code blocks (that's what they were called in P5, right?), they are liable to get confused and write "BEGIN: { $lib_args = ... }; use Foo $lib_args" and wonder why it doesn't work 00:47
TimToady some speculation in p6l that we should write labels as Lines: instead of LINES: to prevent that confusion.
audreyt @ osdc... currently projecting #perl6 on the big screen 00:48
TimToady hi everyone!
audreyt (the talk is due to start in 12mins)
azuroth hi perlers!
audreyt :D
TreyHarris TimToady: yeah, I started that, I think... 00:49
audreyt wonders how many in the room knows that TimToady = Larry Wall
TimToady I just proposed .#() as embedded comment and as replacement for "long dot", which seems like a simplification.
I'm not sure even TimToady realizes that all the time...
TreyHarris he's TimToady, he's the real TimToady, all the other... nevermind. 00:50
TimToady audreyt: which talk are you giving now?
and have you finished writing it?
(obviously not...) 00:51
Hmm, actually, wouldn't that be TimToady =:= Larry Wall? 00:53
TreyHarris TimToady: depends. maybe "TimToady" is an IRC handle object that is getting assigned certain aspects of Larry Wall through a coercion? 00:54
arcady probably TimToady ~~ Larry Wall 00:55
can't go wrong with that one, I hope
TimToady I certainly don't feel like a readonly alias...
maybe I just delegate to myself.
Nah, I'm so bad at delegation that I even delegate my delegating to other people.
audreyt rehi
TimToady: this is supposedly 3hr talk on pugs 00:56
but I only have 50min of it
TimToady never stopped you before.
audreyt the next half Ihave no idea
maybe I'll simply plagiar^Wadapt your talk
TimToady just give 'em a little break in the middle...
audreyt may I do that?
TimToady sure
audreyt :D
TimToady++
TimToady: actually... your israel talk may work better
you have the .ppt somewhere?
TimToady er, good question. they have it up somewhere in .il 00:57
hang on...
audreyt thanks :)
TimToady wall.org/~larry/StumpIL.ppt 00:58
audreyt prays that OOo can handle it
TimToady that's what I used in .il
so should work, if you're recent enough
audreyt 2.0-rel here 00:59
stevan_ audreyt: if you need me to, I can convert it to PDF for you :)
audreyt works
TimToady OOo++
audreyt stevan_: what format is yours in?
stevan_ audreyt: I have M$ office and can "print to PDF" 01:00
audreyt stevan_: cool, url please -- I'll probably have the audience pick the slide to use in the second half of the talk
stevan_: nah, .ppt is just dine
s/dine/fine/
stevan_ ok
audreyt ok, the talk is starting... I'm switching you off the big screen :)
bbiab &
TimToady bye
TreyHarris bye bye
stevan_ bye bye
TimToady we've been de-takahashied... 01:01
stevan_ goes to read TimToady 's ppt
TreyHarris where were we being ogled from? Taipei?
stevan_ poor substitute for actually having gone to .il
TimToady yup
but the takahashified version of my stump speech is even more cryptic. 01:02
Juerd wonders if takahashification fits on a Scrabble board 01:03
obra google: Results 1 - 1 of 1 for takahashification. (0.48 seconds)
Juerd 10:49:06 <autrijus> 01:04
TimToady please tell me it's not a reference back to #perl6...
Juerd TimToady: Almost :)
obra nope #haskell
and hahhahahahaha. audrey.
Wow. so meta
TimToady figgers
TreyHarris ah, this slide show begins the same as the talk you gave at LISA in... 2002?
obra 10:49:06 <autrijus> it's the takahashification process that's hard... it's just 45min, can't go into anything detail
Juerd obra: /me is rotflol :)
TimToady yep. One of these centuries I'll have to come up with a new talk. 01:05
Actually it keeps mutating over time.
obra TimToady: Right around Perl 7.
Juerd Good night, folks
obra "Perl 7000"
TimToady Actually, I come up with a new talk every OSCON. It's everyone else gets the same talk.
'nite Juerd.
Though arguably all my OSCON talks are the same talk too... 01:06
stevan_ is pondering a talk this year for YAPC::NA, but is getting brain block on the abstract
TimToady Basically I never sign up for talks I have to write the abstract of in advance. 01:07
TreyHarris en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Takahashi_method
stevan_ yeah but your TimToady :P
01:07 stevan_ is now known as stevan
TimToady there's got to be some advantaget to it somewhere... 01:08
stevan suspects its the throngs of female groupies, but can't say for sure
TimToady my throng of female groupies I can count on the fingers of one hand, and that's about all I'm allowed to do with 'em. :) 01:09
stevan :)
merlyn at least you *have* female groupies 01:10
mine are all psychotic
obra One would think you'd be allowed to take Gloria out to a movie or for an ice cream sundae occasionally.
TimToady who says mine aren't?
merlyn sending me samples of their cut hair, etc.
stevan decides to not send that "package" to merlyn now
TimToady Gloria tends to transcend groupiehood in various ways.
obra Fair enough. *grin* 01:11
TreyHarris merlyn: where'd you come from? you *are* merlyn--you can just pop in from nowhere
merlyn it's true
TreyHarris waves
merlyn particulates 01:12
TimToady fields tagmemically
TreyHarris i've seen Lessig speak. it's impressive, but I imagine he has interns or grad students to help him with his slides 01:15
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azuroth by the way... what's the deal with the bugs manifesto? 01:20
01:22 xern joined
TimToady have you seen the Pugs Manifest from Audrey? 01:30
stevan azuroth: check the date on its release ;)
TimToady we shoulda put a link to it...
azuroth ahh, ok. I haven't seen it 01:31
xinming TimToady: You've mentioned that .#() will become multi-line comments, hmm, I wonder, will it be implemented as a macro or postfix operator? 01:32
stevan wouldnt it be a circumfix instead of a postfix actually? 01:33
xinming oops. circumfix... :-/ 01:34
arcady well, it'd have to be a macro 01:36
since you don't want it looking at what's inside the ()
(other than to figure out where the right ) is
or actually. it's a quotelike operator 01:37
quotelike noop 01:38
xinming hmm, how about using .#(bla bla bla) to comment a line instead of #? (I mean begin of a line)
will it be parsed as a . operator, and then, comment begin? 01:39
arcady why would it do that? 01:40
it would be a .# operator
xinming ok, IMHO, perl 6 will confuse more people than perl 5. :-P 01:41
arcady more and less
azuroth $x.#(blah blah).foo will be a . operator though, of course 01:42
arcady .#() is grammatically a little weird, because it is like nothing at all 01:50
as opposed to regular comments, which are like whitespace
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TimToady I'm busy revising S02 again, and it looks like it's working out very nicely. 02:04
Particularly since we still get a shorthand . . that is taken to be equivalent to .#. . 02:05
The other comments are naturally defined to make the "extra" newline into the whitespace. 02:08
So #... only extends *to* the newline at the end.
and =begin doesn't hide the newline before it.
or actually, ". ." is equivalent to ".#. .." so it still does the "long dot" trick visually. 02:15
have just checked in new S02. 02:16
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TimToady pmichaud: see newest S02? 02:30
pmichaud TimToady: as of ...? 02:31
the one you just committed, with C< .# > ?
TimToady 'bout 15 minutes ago
yes.
pmichaud I looked briefly through it. You didn't like (or didn't see) the alternative C< #. > proposal?
TimToady also have a response to the #. proposal queued, but my mailer is not sending right now.
pmichaud ah
okay :-)
I just sent a second response about 5 minutes ago 02:32
TimToady I prefer the "shape" of .#() as a pseudo-method call.
pmichaud I buy that
TimToady looks more distinctive too in isolation
pmichaud I was thinking that #.( ) itself looked like a comment method call :-)
TimToady #. is too square on the front, and easily confused with plain #
pmichaud I agree with squareness on the front. I don't think it's too confusing -- I don't think people will commonly use #. except as a whitespace eater 02:33
or as a delimited comment
TimToady also, I think $x# looks too much like the # is part of the $x. it really need the dot in between. 02:34
pmichaud I agree there as well
TimToady And I just like the it looks like # is the name of the method in .#()
*that 02:35
pmichaud yup, I have to agree
could we use the "whitespace after #" trick here as well, so that we get $x.# .foo() ?
or does S02 already say that
?
TimToady you just write that $x. .foo() now. ". ." is short for ".#. .." 02:36
azuroth maybe . isn't obtrusive enough
TimToady is there. when it's not, use .#[] 02:37
you almost always use "long dot" for lining things up, so there's redundant dots all up and down.
azuroth $x##(foo is great).foo(); 02:38
pmichaud TimToady: okay, I like it -- especially when you put it that way
the redundant dots is a very good point 02:39
TimToady azuroth: no, that would destroy ###################### blocks.
pmichaud I'm much happier with this than with the gappy dot that we had previously
TimToady me too.
pmichaud and I like this much better than the lengthy dots ('......')
TimToady cost me a nap worrying it though...
audreyt stevan: url to your talk? 02:40
pmichaud perhaps a small price to pay? Or are you still recovering from .jp?
azuroth TimToady: are you polyphasic? or just like naps?
TimToady mostly residual jetlag, probably. have to get up at 5am tomorrow to go down to San Diego and give a talk...
azuroth ahh
TimToady I do have many phases though. :) 02:41
azuroth when are you coming to Australia to give a talk? ;-) 02:42
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TimToady dunno. haven't scheduled an Australia phase yet. I think I was supposed to come during my mid-life crisis, but my mid-life crisis turned out to be a rather pitifully small thing, as mid-life crises go... 02:46
all I did was scrap my life's work and start over... 02:47
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kattana_ Refactored hmm? 02:49
TimToady Maybe with a quantum computer refactoring can be sped up... 02:53
Just call any(=io("*.rfc")) and see what pops out. 02:55
Limbic_Region was our channel just attacked? 03:04
pmichaud Limbic_Region: I didn't notice anything 03:05
Limbic_Region: (other than the message from lilo asking if we were attacked) 03:06
Limbic_Region ok - it appeared to be a targeted message though as #perl didn't receive it
TreyHarris Limbic_Region: no channel received it... it was a global mesg, so each user should have received it once 03:10
FurnaceBoy_ "Australia phase" ? 03:15
lots of Perl fans there :) 03:16
rabid ones
azuroth hmm. use cases and scenarios just don't do it for me 03:20
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azuroth hmm 05:06
arcady hmm? 05:08
azuroth I just realised, when you're buying something with cash it's the change that's rounded, not the amount to pay. don't know why I never realised that before
TreyHarris i.e., if it's $1.01, you have to pay at least $1.05, and you get nothing back? 05:42
azuroth s/.01/.04/
yes, which carries over to paying by EFTPOS nicely 05:43
TreyHarris ah, but if it's $1.01, you get it for a dollar?
azuroth humm, good point. unless you paid $1.00 and the change was -0.01, which would round down to 0 :-p 05:44
err, up
so both cash in and cash out need to be rounded-ish 05:45
arcady well, that's nice and clever
in the US nothing is rounded
well, the sales tax is rounded to the nearest cent
(and sometimes it's something like 8.625%) 05:46
azuroth so you buy something for $0.99 and you get one cent change? gee 05:47
arcady better yet
the 99 cent store sells everything for 99 cents
so you need $1.07 to actually buy anything
azuroth argh 05:48
arcady so you get 93 cents change
there's actually a clever fast food chain that includes sales tax and pre-rounds everything to 5 cents
azuroth hmm. I guess 10% GST _is_ a good thing, compared to alternatives 05:51
arcady oh, and then there's the fact that the 1 cent coin is bigger than the 10 cent coin
yeah
here sales tax is pretty arbitrary, varying by state, county, city, and often special tax districts on top of that
and then there's alaska... no sales tax, no state tax, and they actually pay you to live there 05:54
azuroth ...what?
arcady they put all the money they collected off the oil industry in the Alaska Permanent Fund 05:55
ayrnieu azuroth - yes.
arcady and everyone gets an annual share of the interest
presumably this somehow makes up for not seeing the sun for half the year
ayrnieu Two thousand dollars or so, last I heard.
arcady - makes up for? Added bonus! 05:56
azuroth what a crazy place...
ayrnieu Alaskans refer to summer as 'road-building season'. All construction starts then, and is fast, because it absolutely stops in winter.
azuroth - extreme environments can be fun.
arcady yep. pepole there fly to work. on their own airplanes 05:59
azuroth ... you americans are all crazy
06:00 TimToady is now known as aTimToady
aTimToady I see only people whose nics start with "a" are allowed now... 06:01
06:01 azuroth is now known as TimToady
TimToady not any more 06:01
06:01 TimToady is now known as azuroth, aTimToady is now known as TimToady
ayrnieu always the there being more than one way to do it! 06:02
azuroth only places starting with 'a' can be talked about, also
TimToady all places start with 'a'
azuroth exactly 06:03
hmm. credit vouchers. 06:06
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gaal "quotelike nooperator" 06:55
azuroth goatlike goat goat 07:00
07:08 Barry joined
arcady clearly, perl needs more goatlike operators 07:15
gaal beeeh. 07:17
audreyt did pugs_intro + stumpjp + parrot(why,where,when) today 07:18
tomorrow will do haskell + peek
(stumpjp = larry's closing keynote to yapc::asia; parrot(www) is jonathan's)
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azuroth three hours of talking? well done 07:28
audreyt thanks... I very much miss resuming hacking+journaling though :/
wireless is crappy here
(as with most conferences)
at least food is good 07:29
audreyt is watching a demo of XCode class browser/model builder and is reminded again of how good OO could be
(though to be fair, Eclipse seems to be getting there) 07:30
azuroth is there a video stream? ;-p 07:31
gaal randomly took a look at the new stuff in Eclipse 3.2 - pretty amazing work they're doing there 07:32
of course half of it is only needed because, uh, the bureaucracy
audreyt . o O (vogons with their interplanatary bulldozers) 07:33
arcady eclipse makes java almost bearable
a feature of eclipse? or a bug of java? 07:34
audreyt both...
"the culture can fix the language"
gaal I feel like giving more than one talk in yapc, but I'm out of ideas. (audrey, not sure about the ghc thing) 07:35
hmmm, maybe "the pugs test system and how you can use it for your perl5 projects"? 07:36
azuroth "creating FORTRAN macro-laden perl6" 07:37
gaal "The ASM backend" 07:38
not.
audreyt gaal: HTMLMatrix is at most a lightning talk
+smokeserv, maybe 20mins
gaal i wasn thinking, yeah.
+cataloger
audreyt mmm hmm 07:39
gaal catalogger
analoger, hylologer...
zygologer, paraloger... 07:41
audreyt metalogger, monologger
gaal antiquasilogger
see? enough for a 20 minute talk. :-) 07:42
audreyt it's all greek to me
gaal don't worry, it's all equivalent to monads
audreyt you mean symmetric premonoidal categories with algebraic structures 07:43
gaal \x -> take (1+(2*x)) $ concat $ repeat "~Y" 07:44
what I mean of course is analytic and algebraic topology of locally Euclidean metrization 07:45
of infinitely differentiable Riemannian manifold
(Bozhe moi!)
audreyt bozhe moi
gaal heh heh
I know! I know! I'll give a talk on "Type Inference in Brainfuck" 07:47
arcady hm. I wonder if there can exist such a thing as Objective Brainfuck 07:48
gaal Subjective Brainfuck
or is that Surjective?
azuroth hmm. I think it already is subjective 07:49
ayrnieu a language capable of N-dimensional time-travel with backtracking and a versatile array of feral and tame extensions is surely not a language powerful enough for OO and type inference. 07:50
audreyt hm, objc distinguishes between
"buffer"
and
@"string"
I wonder if we need somehow a buffer object constructor literal
probably not something to worry about right now 07:51
azuroth interesting... better yet would be compile-time constructors, if I'm not going crazy?
macro MakeBuf(String $a){ turn literal $a into a linked-list or whatever }; $a = MakeBuf("foo"); ? 07:54
gaal audreyt: url on what the distinction entails? 07:55
audreyt gaal: www.carbondev.com/site/?page=Cocoa 07:57
azuroth: that would do, yeah
gaal scary sentences: 08:00
"You can print almost any object out using NSLog"
"Almost everything in Cocoa is an object"
Is there a word in English analogous to "contrarian", where the force of the difference is in saying "but" in the sense of a qualification and not opposition? 08:02
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ayrnieu gaal - pedant. 08:02
gaal lol
azuroth scary syntax...
ayrnieu qualitarian.
gaal cocoalitarian 08:03
ayrnieu contraqualitarian.
gaal ha! turns out that _e_qualitarian is a word: it's a synonym for egalitarian
in the noun sense. 08:04
ayrnieu yes.
Where by 'real' you mean 'used'. If you start using 'contraqualitarian' now, you'll either have a real and decent word for your subject or someone will send you an angry email telling you to use some other, superior term. 08:05
gaal a rabbi, a priest, and equalitarian step into a bar...
except I didn't say "real" :) 08:06
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ayrnieu sorry, I translated something you said with structure into an idiomatic noun: 'real word'. 08:08
gaal I am teh tricksy
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azuroth I'm speed racer and I drive real fast 08:35
ayrnieu I'm a big pirate and I like to steal
azuroth I'm your doctor and here's the bill! 08:36
Barry I'm Perl 6 and I take my time. 08:37
audreyt Barry++ 08:38
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azuroth party time 08:41
gaal audreyt, ISTR you had an alias to open the .hs source of GHC modules (eg IORef) from the shell. can I have it? 08:45
audreyt I really don't
gaal you grep -r 'module Foo' ?
audreyt locate IORef.hs | grep ghc/libraries | xargs vim
gaal ah, better 08:46
thanks :)
08:46 nothing_pasta joined
gaal the docs for (++) mention here 08:48
# haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/li...v%3A%2B%2B
that a ++ b is a if a is infinite
now, of course that's effectively true
but the compiler has no way of knowing it in the general case. so why mention it? 08:49
ayrnieu (documentation?)
gaal well, I'm sorta applying the pragmatics take on grice's maxims here 08:50
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audreyt gaal: 08:51
gaal if something's obvious but somebody bothered to mention it in otherwise terse documentation, there's presumably something subtle going on
audreyt (++) [] ys = ys
(++) (x:xs) ys = x : xs ++ ys
gaal: the compiler doesn't have to know
lazy eval takes care of that
azuroth !
gaal well, sure, okay 08:52
pasteling "masak" at 130.238.83.176 pasted "Why don't the subroutines &a and &b return the same results?" (32 lines, 1K) at sial.org/pbot/16665
masak this confused me greatly last night
help appreciated
audreyt masak: try s/&&/and/ 08:54
masak i will 08:55
audreyt otherwise (4,5) associates to &&
masak ah 08:56
audreyt && is tighter than listop
masak yes, "and" works
ayrnieu why use grep on (4,5) instead of 4|5 ?
masak ayrnieu: (4,5) is a special case of an array I have
I was trying to understand the phenomenon
08:57 GeJ joined
masak audreyt: thx, the thing about priority explains everything 08:57
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nothingmuch audreyt++ 09:02
audreyt JSR 292 makes targetting JVM finally possible (err, sane): 09:05
www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=292
finally approved, coming to Java 7
"invokedynamic" opcode 09:06
nothingmuch i need a volunteer that can do Getopt and Perl 5
i can't write proper CLIs
or rather, i've never tried/learned
and I haven't the time
this is for the smokeserver upload script
it should be able to upload a serialized report
or upload a t/ dir
or serialize a t/ dir
by t/ dir 09:07
i mean: run the tests
it should be able to say '-t "this is a single tag" -t foo -t bar'
audreyt nothingmuch: App::CLI ?
Getopt::Long and use "t=s@" 09:08
that's all
09:08 p5evalbot joined
nothingmuch i'll keep that in mind 09:10
anyway, i'm working on the server
if anyone wants to volunteer before I get around to the client
feel free
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_meppl guten morgen 11:02
11:03 _meppl is now known as _meppl_, _meppl_ is now known as meppl
nothingmuch hi ho 11:04
meppl good morning nothingmuch 11:05
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lichtkind hello, is it possible to wirte in perl6 $arrayref = (1,); ? 16:10
wolverian yeah. 16:13
lichtkind thanks 16:14
im witing some perl6 tut in german 16:17
and in this sample the array will have only one item? 16:19
wolverian yeah. although you could as well say [1] 16:27
16:31 penk left
lichtkind yes that also stand in synopsis 16:36
thx :9
17:03 rindolf joined
rindolf gaal: here? 17:03
nothingmuch: here?
lichtkind seem so:) but people here are frienly
nothingmuch rindolf: yes 17:05
rindolf nothingmuch: hi! Happy Passover. 17:15
nothingmuch it's passover?
rindolf nothingmuch: on Wednesday. 17:17
nothingmuch: I unleashed 6 modules on CPAN this weekend. Three of them were different versions of Error.pm, though. 17:19
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rindolf Hi all! 20:10
TimToady: here?
nothingmuch yawns 20:15
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