svn switch --relocate svn.openfoundry.org/pugs svn.pugscode.org/pugs/ | run.pugscode.org | spec.pugscode.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com
Set by avar on 16 November 2006.
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jrockway ?uptime 01:30
lambdabot uptime: 54m 24s, longest uptime: 9d 2h 23m 6s
svnbot6 Running for 1083673 seconds.
jrockway > let f = (* 2); f 2 01:31
lambdabot Parse error
jrockway so you can do haskell in #perl6 :)
> 1 + 1 01:32
lambdabot 2
allbery_b > let f = (* 2) in f 2 01:36
hrm 01:37
?seen
sad bot
@bot
lambdabot 4 01:38
Lately, I have seen allbery_b, dcoutts__, glguy, jrockway, mgsloan, ndm, sorear, svnbot6 and tizoc.
:)
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allbery_b lambdabot's even slower than I am tonight, it seems 01:38
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jrockway @botsnack 01:44
lambdabot :)
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dduncan question: I recall that the Perl 6 epoch is the year 2000, however, is it specifically 2000-1-1T0:0:0 , or some other second of the year 2000? 06:15
or is it some other when? 06:16
allbery_b I think that's right 06:21
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dmq runs around being chased by a swarm of very small parrots 08:18
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gaal could be worse. they might be giants. 09:11
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Schwern Can someone explain to me the difference between fail and die? Or point me to the appropriate docs? 11:38
broquaint I think fail returns a Failure object where as die properly throws an exception. 11:42
See. Exceptions and Definition of Success in S04: dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S04.html 11:43
lambdabot Title: Synopsis 4: Blocks and Statements - perl6:
Schwern That seems to say that fail returns an undef unless "use fatal" is in effect in which case it throws an exception.
ayrnieu S29 in my Perl6::Bible has "die\nfail\n TODO: Research the exception handling system."
broquaint I think it's an undef with relevant Failure info. 11:44
e.g "A list is of undefined length only if it contains an undefined generator, which, happily, is what is returned by the fail function when used in list context."
Schwern Ahh, here it is. 11:45
The advantage of using fail is that it allows the callers of get_data to decide how that subroutine should signal failure. As explained above, normally fail fails by returning undef. But if a use fatal pragma is in effect, any invocation of fail instead throws the corresponding exception.
ayrnieu well, ... calls fail; S03 says: If no arguments are given, the operator calls "fail" (returning "undef", or throwing an exception if "use fatal" is in effect).
Schwern Boy that's handy
broquaint Larry, you've done it again! 11:46
Schwern Zounds!
Juerd fail is the configurable error thingy :) 11:48
Extremely useful. You can easily make it warn and return undef. Finally the user of your module gets to choose in a consistent way :)
ayrnieu how can you make it warn? 11:49
Schwern use just::a::flesh::wound ? 11:51
ayrnieu Schwern - the other idea was that you can have 'open or die' or else just an 'open' that throws an exception. Clearly, warnings would reduce the former's utility. 11:54
Schwern Would the caller's "use fatal" change the behavior of an open() inside a subroutine? 11:55
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ayrnieu doesn't know. 11:56
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broquaint use fatal :scope('dynamic'); # Mwhaha! 11:57
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avar fail should be the canonical example you should hit people with when they misunderstand TMTOWTDI 12:33
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gaal Schwern: gaal.livejournal.com/170284.html 12:53
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Schwern How is anyone installing Test::TAP::Model? 15:48
Its not using any of the analyze methods correctly 15:49
Ahh, they changed. 15:54
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rgs Juerd: fwiw, I won't post on that trollesque thread on hate-software, but I'll have to mention that I *love* the Perl 6 whitespace rules :) even if I'm quite involved in Perl 5. 17:35
Juerd I love that mailing list, even if it is indeed a troll nest. 17:42
rgs not unsubscribed yet :) 17:44
Juerd It's aggregated at we.hates-software.net/ 17:45
s/net/com/ 17:46
rgs yes: rgarciasuarez.hates-software.com/
lambdabot Title: rgarciasuarez hates software
Juerd Ah :) 17:47
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TimToady rgs: what about the whitespace rules do you like in particular? 17:56
rgs TimToady: it removes ambiguities 17:57
at least for my definition of "intuition" 17:58
TimToady k, I just wasn't sure how I'd answer if someone asked me. :)
rgs more specifically, there was a thread on how hateful "print (3+4)" is.
TimToady ah, yes. that's something we intentionally killed very dead. 17:59
Juerd I like that it removes the horrible special casing for ().
rgs Abigail, for example, likes to write that, and patches his perls to remove the warning "print (...) interpreted as a function"
Juerd rgs: That patch should be default imo :)
rgs to remove the warning ? 18:00
Juerd Yes, absolutely. I hate that warning.
If this is how Perl 5 works, then the warning shouldn't be there.
Besides that, the warning appears very inconsistently. Not for every function, not for every amount of whitespace.
rgs I hate it too. But I still think it helps.
TimToady Warnings are for when your intuition is violated.
Juerd And it doesn't respond to no warnings... 18:01
rgs also, this warning is emitted by heuristics
Juerd TimToady: Warnings are okay if you can disable them. :)
rgs which is, as you know, a fancy way to say it doesn't work :)
TimToady Perl 5 tries to change your intuition. Perl 6 goes with the intuition of 90% of the people.
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Juerd I forgot when you got this warning even with no warnings 'syntax'; 18:01
rgs I think that's fixed now 18:02
Juerd TimToady: Are there stats on that somewhere?
rgs but there's a warning that is even more hateful :
$ perl -we 'my $file; open my $x, $file;'
Parentheses missing around "my" list at -e line 1.
Juerd Oh, yes.
rgs If you remove the ";", the warning goes away.
Juerd I'm not arguing that this is the most hateful warning :)
rgs what is hateful is that the tokenizer looks for a ";" to emit the warning. Another heuristic. 18:03
TimToady Juerd: no, 90% is my intuition. :)
Juerd TimToady: As mutated by Perl 5, or ...? :)
rgs stats can be wrong 90% of the time, but not intuition :)
TimToady anyway, the main reason for the whitespace rules is to keep postfix distinct from infix. 18:04
this just falls out of it nicely.
we had to have a consistent rule or we can't really extend the grammar with new postfix or infix.
Juerd Uhhuh 18:05
It took a while for me to realise all this, but I've loved it for quite a while now.
I still don't like that you can't use whitespace with . (\ is too ugly for my taste), but understand that there's no fix for that. 18:06
TimToady not without breaking .foo meaning $_.foo
Juerd Yea 18:07
Well, there is the backtick of course ;)
s/.*//
TimToady and I think that's also in the same category of doing a small syntax tweak so you don't have to remember a bunch of exceptions.
likewise you don't have to remember which } to put ; after. 18:08
Juerd Personally I'd rather be forced to write ; after each }
But that's no issue at all for me
(It does mean that I have to be more careful about emitting code) 18:09
TimToady yeah
but I think the price is worth it in terms of visual clean-lookingness
Juerd In the past I have emitted code with only \n whitespace.
Just because I could ;) 18:10
TimToady which the lack of drives people away from Perl 5
Juerd I'm not sure what drives people away from Perl 5. The lack of Perl 6 seems to be a big factor too.
TimToady all the punctuation in Perl 6 has to do work, it can't sit around and loaf.
Juerd I'm driven away from Perl 5 AND 6 by lack of time to spend typing. :| 18:11
And the little time I do have, I enjoy discussion too much.
TimToady I never noticed. :P
Juerd :) 18:12
TimToady ah well, I agree that the handicap of being only one person is rather depressing at times.
Juerd I'm vastly wasting my time on this hates-software list now, defending Perl 6 to a bunch of people who have decided that they will hate it anyway... 18:13
TimToady There are lots of people in the world who are never happy unless they have something to be unhappy about. 18:14
rgs and they don't even send patches :) 18:16
TimToady on the other hand, it doesn't do to ignore them entirely either, because occasionally they'll tell you when the emperor isn't wearing any clothes. 18:17
Tene TimToady: can you remember any good examples of times that's happened? 18:18
TimToady well, the people who carped for years about too much gratuitous punctuation in Perl were basically correct. They were just mostly wrong about which punctuation was gratuitous. 18:27
Tene What were their claims? 18:28
TimToady basically, Perl should look like C. :)
usually in the form of "Perl just looks like line noise." 18:29
but they wanted mainly to lose the sigils, and the curlies around statements.
when we really needed to lose the punctuation variables and the parens around conditionals.
and change -> to . 18:30
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TimToady the sigils and the curlies have only grown in importance 18:31
curlies are now closures, which is something outside the ken of C programmers. 18:32
and the sigils turn out to be a good way to hide twigils as well as variable names.
so we can use various ascii characters for twigils without disqualifying them as unary prefixes, like happens in Ruby 18:33
cognominal Will people be allowed to use new sigils as a way to cheaply define their favorite and recurrent types? 18:36
TimToady in theory, yes. in practice we try to discourage it. 18:37
cognominal why?
TimToady 'cuz every time we've tried to do that ourselves, we've ended up deciding it's better to just use $. 18:38
¢ has been a sigil several times. 18:39
cognominal I would have offered a sigil to Capture for example
TimToady it had a sigil for a while
cognominal dutr, more sigils would not be easily accepted outside the Perl communauty 18:41
TimToady but it's basically bad Huffman coding
so currently the Capture sigil is |$, kind of. 18:42
and prefix | composes better with expressions than a ¢ sigil does
to use a sigil for a cast, you need parens usually. 18:43
whereas unary | can be used more places.
you'd have to day ¢(function()) instead of |function()
*say
sigils like to eat following identifiers. 18:44
cognominal Sure enough, even if I do not understand every single choice, I am sold to Perl 6 only thru regex and argument passing/capture. I can't understand people like Slomi who want to stick with Perl 5. 18:48
The introduction of references in Perl 5 had stretched the reasonnable syntactic limits 18:49
hum, Shlomi 18:51
In French, we say somthing like "Keep me from my friends, my ennemies, I deal with" 18:52
TimToady nah, Shlomi's fine these days, hangs out here frequently. 18:55
dmq notes there is a difference between "wants to make perl5 better" and "wants to stick with perl5" 19:01
cognominal dmq, I took a shot of you at lpw : www.flickr.com/photos/26619155@N00/...otostream/ 19:09
lambdabot Title: demerphq presents "regexen in perl 5.10" on Flickr - Photo Sharing!, tinyurl.com/y83aqk
dmq i look like im waiting for the judge to render verdict :-) 19:18
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dmq btw, i hope you enjoyed the talk cognomial. 19:29
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Schwern People who think foo () vs foo() is the end of the world confuse me. There's so much better things which herald the end of the world in Perl 6 than that. 20:10
Like the Whatever object. :)
Schwern runs around cutting heads off chickens. 20:12
dmq offers bets on which chicken falls over first 20:14
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luqui RA layer request failed: PROPFIND request failed on '/pugs': PROPFIND of '/pugs': 502 Proxy Error (svn.pugscode.org) 20:38
lambdabot Title: Perl6 Community Development Server
wolverian same here 20:42
audreyt fixed 21:01
luqui hey audreyt, where is the hyper logic? 21:02
I see where we make the hyper operators, but where do we tell it what to do?
audreyt sorry, need to sleep 21:03
Pugs.Eval.Var:363
Debolaz True geeks never sleep.
audreyt main dispatch is :418
have fun :) &
luqui k thanks
audreyt Debolaz: since I bought this new mattress I completely lost ability to sleephack 21:04
I blame tempur :) &
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wolverian feather doesn't have nethack? boggle :) 22:36
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