svn switch --relocate svn.openfoundry.org/pugs svn.pugscode.org/pugs/ | run.pugscode.org | spec.pugscode.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com
Set by avar on 16 November 2006.
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TimToady fg 00:57
oops :)
well, as long as I'm here, anyone have any opinions on the floor vs euclidian divmod debate? 00:58
allbery_b has no horse in that race, but notes that Haskell provides both (divMod and quotRem) 01:00
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dduncan TimToady, regarding your question, the only opinions I have in that regard at the moment is that Int/Int should result in an Int result, Num/Num should be num, and those 2 operators should perhaps look different so that users can easily tell what is going on 02:52
TimToady Int/Int --> Int doesn't avoid Least Surprise for most people. 02:54
most people will expect Int/Int --> Num because that's how math works 02:55
SamB yeah. except broken people!
TimToady well, grade school math...
however, separating out different operators will probably be okay 02:56
SamB well, maybe in elementary school, the answer has to be an integer too, but you never run into any problems where that doesn't happen?
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TimToady true, they teach remainders before they teach fractions... 02:57
well, gotta decommute & 02:58
davidm123 getting this very same problem in building perl6 under cygwin..aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Mess...ls/3364906 . I patched _LIB_VERSION', but miniparrot fails 02:59
(correction: parrot not perl6)
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Juerd feather users: 07:33
2007-01-10
Please clean up your home directory, as we're running out of storage
space on the machine that hosts the data backups. If you could remove that 6
months old Pugs or GHC tree that you no longer touch anyway, that would be
great. Maybe there are things that you can gzip?
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gaal Juerd: done (cleared O(128MB)) 07:46
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fglock audreyt: would you send me the graffle file for pugs.blogs.com/photos/visiolization...strap.html - I'll draw one for kp6 10:27
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gaal parser combinators in smalltalk: gbracha.blogspot.com/2007/01/parser...ators.html 10:32
fglock why does 'combinator' mean? 10:35
what 10:38
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fglock ah, the article defines it 10:43
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svnbot6 r15022 | fglock++ | kp6 - added ast transformation engine to spec 10:50
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audreyt fglock: perlcabal.org/~audreyt/tmp/lrep.graffle 11:00
rgs hi audreyt
audreyt greetings rgs
rgs so you're going to be in Nice starting next week-end ?
audreyt yes
and stay till the next
are you going to be present on the 2nd weekend as planned?
rgs no, but I think I can make it on monday and tuesday 11:01
15, 16 (before the conference iirc)
audreyt ack
my talk is 17th though
that means I better finish slides before you arrive
otherwise you'll find me in JIT mode :)
rgs I'll let you know 11:02
BTW, I just resigned from $work, so things are a bit difficult to plan
audreyt ah.
svnbot6 r15023 | fglock++ | mp6 - finished ast-traversal module
audreyt are you going to be in.tw?
rgs for OSDC ? no 11:04
audreyt k
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andara hi audreyt! I'm going to Nice too. Looking forward to your talk 11:05
audreyt so are your place close to the conf hotel (Plaza)? is that plan that we hack at hotel?
andara: me too, I havn't started thinking about my talk
so I also look forward to it
;)
rgs looks up plaza hotel
andara audreyt: cool. BTW, could you please point run.pugscode.org to feather.perl6.nl:8080/runpugs/ ? 11:06
audreyt andara: sure, will do so now
rgs it's very close
nice is a small city
audreyt cool 11:07
andara audreyt: great, thanks!
rgs www.flickr.com/photos/rgarciasuarez74/225906267/ <- my place, an old building which is now an historical monument 11:08
audreyt ...wow :) 11:09
so I arrive at 13th and will start working on slides upon landing 11:10
there are conferences too at 15th and 16th 11:11
but I'd like to drop by and visit and hack w/ you at timeslots convenient to you, if that's okay
otherwise you can come to the hotel too :)
rgs I'll have nothing else to do
gaal audreyt: moose 11:12
audreyt gaal: antlr
gaal fglock: a function that manipulates functions
audreyt: so i had a question about caching compilations
can't persistently memoize parseProgram because what to do with the env?
audreyt each parseProgram theoretically gets the same clean env 11:13
gaal not the case today, I tihnk
audreyt no, not at all
unless you count Test.pm.yml
we have preliminary "linking" technology
but it's not the case for normal "use" resolution
which is of course wrong... 11:14
gaal so opEval should by rights first construct a clean env, parse onto it, and merge the result to the current env? that will give us a momoization point
audreyt exactly so 11:15
aka standard linking
gaal ok; so in fact Env param should be dropped from parseProgram to ensure this
audreyt exactly so.
gaal cool
and mergePads or unionPads (i forget the name) can be wrapped in a reusable new "link" function 11:17
audreyt yup.
we already do that for .pm.yml loading
what we need to do is to convince "use" to always go thru that route
but not neccessarily with .yml 11:18
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audreyt i.e. the .yml part can wait until the merge env thing works 11:18
gaal if we hook into opEval it'll always happen
audreyt then we worry about proper deserialization
aye aye.
gaal great, i'll resume this after work then 11:19
audreyt cool 11:25
I need to catch some sleep... bbl
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fglock audreyt, gaal: thanks 11:35
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svnbot6 r15024 | fglock++ | kp6 - rename 'Visitor.pm' to 'Traverse.pm' 11:45
pasteling "evalbot_r15023" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (375 lines, 20.9K) at sial.org/pbot/22252 11:51
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svnbot6 r15025 | fglock++ | kp6 - added proof-of-concept traverse script 12:00
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fglock ?eval my $s=''; for 1..3 { $s ~= $_; eval ' LEAVE { $s ~= 42 } ' }; $s 12:27
evalbot_r15025 \"123"
fglock ?eval my $s=''; for 1..3 { $s ~= $_; LEAVE { $s ~= 42 } }; $s
evalbot_r15025 \"142242342"
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pasteling "fglock" at 201.35.169.13 pasted "a possibly saner implementation of BEGIN blocks run-time side-effects" (29 lines, 442B) at sial.org/pbot/22254 12:51
fglock luqui: please see sial.org/pbot/22254 12:52
it would be nice to use this, because it has no impact on performance 12:53
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fglock luqui: hi :) 12:57
luqui hello fglock 12:58
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fglock luqui: I found that I can use closures to init lexicals at any pad level - see sial.org/pbot/22254 13:03
it's much cleaner
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luqui hmm, I wonder why we didn't see that before... 13:06
fglock it comes from the background refactoring process in the brain - it's a low priority process 13:13
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svnbot6 r15026 | fglock++ | kp6 - added a note on pad accessors 13:22
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[particle] how big (kb, #files) is the pugs test suite? 15:41
don't have svk, so it's hard for me to measure
allbery_b 20.5k, 2138 files in my pugs/t 15:43
that's not excluding .svn though, whoops
[particle] is that an svn working copy?
allbery_b 759 files 15:44
yes
[particle] thanks 15:59
gaal actually it's more like 1.7MB :) 16:00
allbery_b hm right, du defaults to 512-blocks on here and I didn't exclude the svn foo etc.
[particle] gaal: where are BEGIN/END blocks stored in pugs ast?
allbery_b and probably did other things wrong
[particle] 627 files?
gaal [particle]: begin is folded in, and leaves no trace in the ast 16:01
END gets pushed to a @*END magical
[particle] same for check/init?
gaal hm i think so let me look 16:02
yes indeed. see vcode2checkBlock etc. in Pugs.Parser cicca ln. 1091 16:03
*circa
[particle] kthanks
gaal sure
[particle] we'll soon have that functionality in past
gaal yay 16:04
<3 "we will .. in past"
fglock is p6 supposed to support this: my @a[10] = 20; 16:06
gaal sure
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gaal oh, with a my... not sure :) but i think so. :-) 16:06
fglock lexiacally 'shadow' a data structure's element 16:07
lexically
[particle] gaal: so, the result of begin is converted to ast and injected? 16:08
nothingmuch does lexical scoping even make sense here? 16:09
i mean, pads are shadowed lexically because they are an opaque data structure
gaal the result of a begin is a value. it might have had other enviromental side effects, but basically yes, it's folded to a context and injected to the compunit's ast
nothingmuch it has no addressible origin
fglock ?eval my $s; my @a=1..5; { my @a[2]=42; $s= ~@a; }; $s
evalbot_r15026 \" 42"
gaal srry bbiab..
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svnbot6 r15027 | andara++ | [runpugs] 16:10
r15027 | andara++ | -release of what was the 'devel' version, v0.3.0
r15027 | andara++ | -window/tab close now terminates session. Thanks diakopter.
r15027 | andara++ | -for those who didn't use the devel version: it's much faster now
fglock I need to modify an array element lexically 16:15
that's for implementing things like: my multi infix:<+> {...} 16:17
lexical modifications to the global grammar
hmm - it could be local'ized instead, by resetting to the old value on LEAVE 16:18
svnbot6 r15028 | seano++ | Another "99 problem", perl5-style.
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fglock GabrielVieira: ola 16:19
GabrielVieira fglock flavio my master! :) 16:20
fglock heh
kolibrie fglock: but that is 'temp' - I don't know how 'my' should work in your example, or if it is even legal, because the array was already 'my'-ed 16:29
fglock hmm - @P6::Grammar::infix{'+'} needs to dispatch from the caller's pad POV
TimToady I think it probably parses (my @a)[2] 16:30
and that hides the outer @a 16:31
fglock yes
I'm now trying to find out how 'my multi infix:<+> is parsed ... {...}' interacts with '@P6::Grammar::infix{'+'}' 16:32
TimToady fglock: yes, you have to keep track of the grammar the user thinks they're using.
fglock is it a kind of shadow over the global value 16:33
TimToady the macro part shadows, but has the same effect of dispatching to a normal multi 16:34
and a normal "my multi" just hides that "long name"
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TimToady in other words, my multi infix:<+> doesn't have to do anything to the infix table if it's already there. 16:35
fglock got it 16:36
TimToady the infix table just turns $a + $b into infix:<+>($a,$b) and then normal multi takes over
fglock and the parser executes in the current block's compile-time context
TimToady so don't need to temporize table for that.
as we used to say with P5, a local at compile time is a my at run time 16:37
or something like that
if you do add a new infix, then you have to compile-time temporize something 16:38
whether it's the whole infix table, or a shadow mask...
or, I suppose, if you change the associativity or precedence of + 16:39
course, it does hurt anything except performance to temporize unnecessarily. 16:40
(in theory)
s/does/doesn't/ 16:41
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TimToady obviously I need my coffee... 16:41
fglock thanks - I got the idea 16:42
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GabrielVieira fglock pvt? 16:52
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fglock p6hack + $work is a bit confusing :) 18:02
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TimToady yes, especially if $work->perl5() 18:15
wolverian I considered trying to use perl6 for my data structures course project, but perhaps haskell is more realistic at this point 18:16
(fortunately the graders don't really care that much about the language, so I don't have to use java)
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fglock actually, right now, work = drawing comics for our web page :) 18:18
luqui wolverian, haskell might throw them for a thunk 18:22
data structures in haskell are a little... different :-)
wolverian true enough. :) 18:23
luqui \f -> f 1 2 -- oh yeah, that's just the tuple (1,2) 18:25
fglock I've been switching between p6/p5 too often lately - it's no longer a problem 18:26
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TimToady that's the problem with Haskell--you have to say "oh yeah" on just about every line... 18:33
every function is a brain pretzel 18:34
luqui eh, no, just the fun ones
allbery_b is gradually getting past that point
masak will computers be doing programming in the future, I wonder 18:35
luqui a lot of, say, pugs is pretty everyday code, once you grok the (many) haskell idioms
masak, either no, or they are already
allbery_b masak: they've been predicting that since the 50s or earlier :)
luqui (define your terms!)
masak luqui: I don't mean metaprogramming, or other such things 18:36
TimToady computers are doing most of the programming these day; problem is you have to specify the problem for them in a higher level language
masak I mean the whole thing, from innovation via design to implementation
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masak TimToady: I don't mean compilation either 18:36
(seems I'm mostly defining what I _don't_ mean :)
TimToady my point is that "innovation" is open-ended 18:37
luqui innovation is the hard one
masak TimToady: point taken
TimToady once computers can do part of it, the def changes
luqui perhaps someday programming will be something like what automated proof checkers are...
er, proof generator
s
you can tell the computer "prove this"
and it will crank and crank (for many many hours for even the simplest things :-)
and then say "here you go"
but a computer has no idea what is interesting to prove 18:38
masak I think a computer doing large parts of a human's programming project would pass my definition
TimToady trouble is, for lots of useful problems you need a computer the size of the universe.
luqui masak, then I think yes
masak ok, next question: will they have coding standards? will they care?
will the standards be anything like human standards?
will different computers prefer different languages? the same languages as humans? 18:39
TimToady my son Aron is currently off at a conference where they're trying to figure out if the universe has coding standards. :)
masak probably in 50 years these questions will seem as naive as a person from the year 1900 asking questions about today's programming languages :)
TimToady well, if we're lucky bitrot will have expunged these irc logs by then... 18:40
masak TimToady: the biological part of the universe certainly doesn't, so far as we know anyway
luqui to be sure :-)
(to the "in 50 years" comment)
TimToady well, but nothing is better at innovation than biological systems 18:41
luqui touche
TimToady see H5N1
wolverian it's so very slow though :)
TimToady we sincerely hope H5N1 is slow 18:42
wolverian I meant biological systems in general, as compared to silicon.
(okay, I've read too much egan.)
TimToady it's the price of cheating
luqui hey, a few billion years is no time to wait when comparing how long it takes to break a 4096 bit rsa key 18:43
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TimToady the fastest way for biology to deal with that is to invent a species that can deal with it. 18:44
luqui I wonder if nature could innovate a way to do that faster than brute force could..
TimToady unfortunately nature likes to observe its own qubits 18:45
but nature has provably produced a species that would like to avoid watching 4096 qubits for "long enough" 18:46
luqui provably? which one?
oh
duh
luqui feels smrt
allbery_b heh 18:47
TimToady the sme species tht would like to mke computers smrter thn themselves.
Gothmog_ luqui: It would take long to brake with the current knowledge, but it's not even proven that prime factoring is NP-hard, let alone the P/NP problem. 18:48
luqui details, details
Gothmog_ Just wanted to quibble a bit. ,-) 18:49
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fglock just checking - when I say 'my multi infix:<+> {..}' is it 'OUTER' to the parser? 19:14
awwaiid isn't factoring np-complete?
awwaiid reads wikipedia to find out that it isn't 19:15
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wolverian awwaiid, it is believed to be in NP but not NP-complete 19:18
masak I kinda imagine that computers would have the same reasons for wanting to program in HLLs as we humans do
awwaiid lazy bastards
masak :)
I mean, it hides complexity for us, it should for them too, right?
awwaiid yes... but what is our motivation for hiding complexity if it isn't limited ability to hold it all in our minds at once... I imagine a super-brain (smart enough to hold the entire compiler in their mind instantly) would find actually _using_ a compile pointless. 19:20
we have a mind-body problem, they will have a mind-othersoftware problem
[particle] i don't find calculators useless 19:21
masak awwaiid: they would also have limited ability to hold it all in their minds at once... the limits might be farther away, but they'd be there 19:22
TimToady fglock: I don't know what you mean by "OUTER". are you asking what the global ramifications of "my multi" are?
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awwaiid masak: good point 19:23
wolverian just build more computronium.
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wolverian I wish humans ran on extensible hardware. 19:24
masak wolverian: they do
my glasses are an extension to my eyes
wolverian I meant human minds.
but, point. :)
masak well, my mind uses my eyes as hardware... 19:25
wolverian right.
fglock TimToady: I mean, the parser sees the lexical declaration
wolverian it's like buying a new webcam versus buying a better CPU
TimToady leaving aside the infixness, any "my multi" is used only within dispatches originating from that lexical scope. 19:26
the scope of the infix "macro" is the same.
masak wolverian: what is like buying a new webcam versus buying a better CPU? 19:27
[particle] hrmm, will @?BEGIN, @?END be available? 19:28
wolverian masak, getting glasses versus mind-augmentation.
TimToady when you're building the candidate list for a particular multi dispatch, it goes outward in the scopes and finds any candidates whose long name is not hidden by an inner scope
fglock I think what I mean is, the whole grammar is inside the scope
TimToady finally it adds in all the global multies
wolverian (the latter is what I meant with "extensible hardware")
TimToady logically, yes
wolverian although I wonder what psychedelics are analogous to.
TimToady reverts to previous grammar at }
fglock rather than being a simple external module
masak wolverian: ah. ... yes. 19:29
TimToady yes, you generally have to construct an anonymous grammar
and that anon grammar may well be based on the OUTER:: anonymous grammar
the current grammar is also passed to eval, i think.
but not to require 19:30
so in the case of eval you need to remember the current grammar in $?GRAMMAR till run time
that anonymous grammar is where you probably want to store the modified infix etc. tables 19:31
fglock ok!
TimToady rather than just temporizing, or in addition to temporizing
masak wolverian: I don't think psychedelics necessarily have an equivalent in the computer world, though that's quite a bland answer, admittedly. the thing that psychedelics disturb (something along the lines of "a consistent conscious experience") doesn't have an analogue in the software world. 19:32
TimToady basically a GC problem; if anything refers to $?GRAMMAR you keep it around.
wolverian masak, right. yet, anyway. :)
TimToady multithreading seems to be related. :) 19:33
if this conversation is any clue
masak TimToady: :) 19:35
allbery_b <mike> I conjecture it is similar to a slight overvoltage </mike>
TimToady more like changing the damping characteristics of back-and-forth interactions, I suspect 19:37
maybe when computers can have epileptic fits, they can go psychedelic
anyway, moving from hard locking to STM may get us closer 19:38
next is PTM, psychedelic transcendental memory 19:39
masak *lol*
masak would like to see an SPJ paper on that
probably, there will never really be a stage where we'd say "well, now it seems that computers really program themselves" 19:41
either it'll never happen or it already happened, depending on one's definitions
fglock is a BEGIN block compiled, and then executed - or is it compiled/executed a statement at a time 19:42
masak but what we'll probably see increasingly is computers hooking up to each other and telling each other what to to, in increasingly complex and seemingly aware ways 19:43
PerlJam fglock: what an odd question.
masak fglock: is the difference noticeable in any way? do you have a code example?
PerlJam fglock: I've always thought it the former. I guess thinking about the other is what strikes me as odd. 19:44
fglock PerlJam: I'm just checking - because I'm working on it right now...
TimToady BEGIN just compiles like a normal closure, but executes after final } 19:45
fglock it can have a BEGIN inside it, right?
[particle] executes as soon as possible
TimToady yes 19:46
but you don't need statement granulatity on you compiler pipeline
masak what about a BEGIN with an END in it?
TimToady closure granularity is good enough
fglock ok 19:47
TimToady the END doesn't care
still executes when the run-time is exiting
masak ah
reasonable
TimToady all END/CHECK/INIT do are push a closure on a queue
or whatever correct English for that is... 19:48
well, push or unshift, depending on the order used for that kind of block... 19:49
gaal "append"?
TimToady either that or the caller runs in the other order.
gaal or even "put"
TimToady pend this to that list 19:50
gaal app-END{}
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TimToady perhaps just push everything and let the caller decide pop vs shift. 19:50
then the list always reflects lexical order, for which there is something to be said. 19:51
especially if people add new blocks with weird execution orders, like dependencies that have to be calculated at run time. 19:54
fglock TimToady: thanks for the explanations 19:56
home &
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svnbot6 r15029 | fglock++ | kp6 - updated spec; added some experiments with begin-blocks 20:11
masak fglock++ # moving stuff forward 20:15
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