svn switch --relocate svn.openfoundry.org/pugs svn.pugscode.org/pugs/ | run.pugscode.org | spec.pugscode.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com
Set by avar on 16 November 2006.
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facenew OT: a 30-min movie mocking kim jong il and his secret agent buying something from china: www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=EE...ED01495685 00:25
lambdabot Title: YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
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avar 02:44:04 < GumbyBRAIN> Send the perl6 developers infinite money and so on. 02:44
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masak ?eval my $a = 'I can declare the same variable'; my $a = 'twice in the same scope' 05:41
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evalbot_r15118 \"twice in the same scope" 05:41
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stevan audreyt: any chance we will see your POPL keynote online anywhere? 06:55
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audreyt stevan: I did not go to POPL, hence no keynote, hence no new slides :/ 07:55
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fglock hi 09:57
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Ziggy6 hello 11:52
fglock: i looked at kp6 and mp6 and have a few questions 11:53
fglock Ziggy6: sure 11:54
Ziggy6 first of all parsing takes to much time 11:55
pasteling "Ziggy6" at 141.85.0.67 pasted "Total Elapsed Time = 20.53264" (19 lines, 1.2K) at sial.org/pbot/22551 11:56
Ziggy6 i've profiled it
fglock Ziggy6: the code generated by the parser makes several method calls on each character - this can be optimized with inlining (not planned for mp6) 11:57
Ziggy6 so you create MiniPerl6::Perl5::Match for every character? 11:58
fglock Ziggy6: yes 11:59
Ziggy6 second question: the parser is top-down? 12:00
fglock it's recursive-descent
Ziggy6 is it going to be that way in the final perl6 compiler? 12:01
fglock the plan is to have a bottom-up stage for operator precedence; the other parts would be recdescent 12:04
Ziggy6 why isn't kp6 self-hosting? 12:05
it seems to have almost the same grammar as mp6 12:07
or maybe i missed something
fglock kp6 is still under implementation - the lexical-subs tranform is currently breaking p5 compatibility, this is being fixed
that is, it can't call the p5 runtime
Ziggy6 why isn't there a makefile to regenerate v6-KindaPerl6/lib5/ 12:10
would it help? 12:11
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Ziggy6 i mean with the compile times 12:12
fglock the workflow for compiling kp6 is not fixed - you can add or take AST transformation steps
kp6-1 will have a script
Ziggy6 last but not least: how can i help? :) 12:13
fglock the current work under way is the implementation of the compile-time environment 12:14
which is needed for fixing lexsubs, and for BEGIN blocks 12:15
Ziggy6 KindaPerl6::Visitor::LexicalSub? 12:17
fglock yes - the plan is to start by implementing a Closure class, with some introspection capabilities 12:18
K::V::LS needs to be split: create the env, and then do the lexsubs 12:19
Ziggy6 why is introspection needed? can't we just use Perl5 closures?
fglock we need access to the lexical variables, and it would be nice if it can return it's source code if needed 12:20
brb
I didn't add the env prototype to the repo - one sec 12:26
Ziggy6: the tricky part is that compile-time closures are both program and data 12:28
svnbot6 r15119 | fglock++ | kp6 - added docs/begin-block.pl - p5 prototype for 'env' implementation
Ziggy6 i don't understand, can you point me to the relevant part of the synopsis? 12:30
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fglock Ziggy6: see the discussions in kp6 docs/begin-block.pod 12:31
Ziggy6 compile-time closure = closure contained in a BEGIN block? 12:32
fglock pretty much all closures need to exist at compile-time; and some of them survive until run-time 12:33
Ziggy6 ok, i think i have enough pointers for now, i'll start digging 12:35
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Ziggy6 ?eval my @i = gather { for 1,2,3 -> { take $_ } } 14:46
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evalbot_r15119 [undef, undef, undef] 14:46
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fglock Ziggy6: don't use -> there - it needs a variable name 15:11
?eval my @i = gather { for 1,2,3 { take $_ } }
evalbot_r15119 [1, 2, 3]
fglock ?eval my @i = gather { for 1,2,3 -> $x { take $x } }
evalbot_r15119 [1, 2, 3]
Ziggy6 thanks :) 15:12
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fglock putter: I wonder if the problem with the mp6/kp6 approach is that there is no low hanging fruit - it's stripped down to a few difficult tasks 15:14
[particle] *cough* documentation *cough* 15:15
fglock [particle]: hmm - there is /docs 15:17
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fglock I agree it's not 'end-user' documentation 15:19
[particle] i was taking a cheap shot, but end user docs would be very useful
as would a test suite
especially if this is to be used as a base for extension for p6
Ziggy6 anyway, the source code line count is low, and that's what made me start playing with it 15:20
fglock [particle]: I'll work a bit on docs 15:22
[particle] fglock++ # i know i'll appreciate that (and i think pmichaud will, too) 15:23
fglock meeting & 15:24
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fglock I'm looking for a starting point for kp6 docs 17:04
ZiggyE you could start by documenting the way kp6 should be run and how to regenerate lib5 17:08
avar explain what subset of p6 it covers
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fglock ok 17:09
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svnbot6 r15120 | fglock++ | kp6 - added docs/FAQ.pod 17:30
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gaal [OT] anyone know how to get a file to be install in /usr/sbin instead of /usr/bin with Module::Install? "install_script" puts it in /usr/bin but apparently relies on EU::MM to do the actual copying... 17:42
*installed 17:43
svnbot6 r15121 | fglock++ | kp6 - more FAQ
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fglock gaal: maybe 'INSTALLBIN' 17:51
[particle] fglock: your faq states that kp6 allows foo(unnamed, named => 1, unnamed) in Sigs 17:52
that's not valid perl6 -- you know that, right? 17:53
oh, i see
it's array/hash/tree unpacking 17:54
but still, it looks broken
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[particle] i'd expect ($top) = @{$_[2]}; 17:54
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fglock [particle]: fixing 17:55
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fglock [particle]: thanks 18:04
svnbot6 r15122 | fglock++ | kp6 - fixed the args unpacking example in FAQ
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TreyHarris TimToady: small typo in your last: "value is a specified" -> "value is specified" 18:46
TimToady thanks
[particle] ~~ to TreyHarris
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demq says hello 18:55
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ingy nothingmuch: ping 18:59
fglock hmm - maybe for mp6; need to find a way to do eval() too - cataclysm.cx/2006/08/19/closures-in-c/ 19:02
lambdabot Title: eaten by a grue :: Closures in C
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VanilleBert ?eval ([2,1],[4,3],[6,5]).>>.reverse 19:08
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evalbot_r15122 ((("2", "1"), ("4", "3"), ("6", "5")), ()) 19:09
nothingmuch ingy: polettix
oops
tab completion ;-)
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VanilleBert hmm, i had thought ((1,2),(3,4),(5,6)) 19:10
ingy nothingmuch: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Art...C3%B6t_Net
lambdabot tinyurl.com/29x9gc
nothingmuch earle martin can be mean 19:11
ingy you know him?
nothingmuch a tiny bit
ingy also Kwiki has been deleted
TimToady VanilleBert: write a test
nothingmuch he was also rightfully mean to lathos for his Acme::I::Rule thing
why was kwiki deleted? 19:12
ingy I don't really know
nothingmuch "dozens of others programmers with many more modules" ?
bah
try 6
and I think that two of them don't speak 19:13
and one has only started recently
VanilleBert TimToady: i dont know how... totally new to Perl, Perl6, (CVS)
ingy yeah, didn't he read his own link?
anyway, who cares...
publicity is overrated
nothingmuch well, I still think you're cool =) 19:14
ingy *kiss*
[particle] hates ingy :P
ingy hey [particle], coe over to Cap Hill and say that...
[particle] accelerates 19:15
ingy [particle]: you should come work over here today
I'm at Online Coffee all day
[particle] maybe i'll drop by this afternoon
ingy lemme know...
[particle] i think kudra is coming to seattle next week
ingy oh yeah? weird
but cool 19:16
anyone know why?
nothingmuch: are you coming to Seattle too?
:)
[particle] visit family i think
nothingmuch nope
ingy I thought she was from Montana
[particle] bellingham 19:17
nothingmuch she is originally from MO
[particle] it's like montana with fewer cattle and more hippies :)
ingy [particle]: where are you now? 19:18
[particle] home, in madrona
nothingmuch mmmm.... hippyburgers
ingy come on over
[particle] i get off work at 2
ingy nothingmuch: join #kwiki
nothingmuch [particle]: when ingy says come on over you do it, CLEAR?!
[particle] (have phone meetings here)
nothingmuch ingy: i don't use or know how to use kwiki...
(from an admin perspective) 19:19
i doubt i'd have anything to contribute
ingy nothingmuch: it's undergoing serious revision
you should come over...
I'm migrating it to P6 19:20
fglock will be in Capao da Canoa beach for a whole month
ingy fglock: I assume that's a good thing?
fglock yes, except for being offline
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nothingmuch internet access is overrated 19:21
you don't *really* need it to survive
stevan looks sideways at nothingmuch
nothingmuch ponders quitting to go live in a tree house in brazil
fglock nothingmuch: you can have wind power and satellite network 19:22
stevan shudders at the thought of having to get pron from corner store/gas station
nothingmuch fuck wind power
in fact
fuck potable water
and clothes!
well... with the coming ice age clothes might not be so overrated 19:23
fglock clothes are good for mosquitoes
stevan yeah man,.. all you need is a sharp stick and grub worms
nothingmuch oh yes... mosquitos... hmm 19:24
[particle] ingy: which online? olive or pine? 19:26
ingy [particle]: pine
pine and 14th 19:27
[particle] sure, yeah. that's a quick spit from here
VanilleBert ?eval ([1,2],[3,4,5]).>>.elems 19:29
evalbot_r15122 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&>>elems"
VanilleBert ?eval (1,2).elems
evalbot_r15122 2
VanilleBert hmpf 19:30
TimToady basically I think .>>. is unimplemented 19:31
VanilleBert ("ab", "abc").>>.chars
?eval ("ab", "abc").>>.chars
evalbot_r15122 (2, 3)
VanilleBert :D 19:32
TimToady basically I'm wrong. :) 19:34
basically I think .>>. is incorrectly implemented. :) 19:35
VanilleBert i thought so ;)
?eval (<a b>, <a b c>).>>.end 19:36
evalbot_r15122 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&>>end"
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VanilleBert problems with Arrays in the Array, huh? were is the implementation? want to read 19:37
fglock ?eval sub elems { @_.elems } ([1,2],[3,4,5]).>>.elems 19:38
evalbot_r15122 ((1, 1), (1, 1, 1))
nanonyme hmm, scary
fglock it's hypering recursively
TimToady ah 19:39
?eval ([1,2],[3,4,5]).map: {.elems} 19:40
evalbot_r15122 (2, 3)
VanilleBert ?eval ([2,1],[4,3],[6,5]).map: { .reverse } 19:41
evalbot_r15122 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
VanilleBert na ~ 19:42
?eval ([2,1],[4,3],[6,5]).map: { [ .reverse ] } # oO 19:43
evalbot_r15122 ([1, 2], [3, 4], [5, 6])
VanilleBert thats what i want :D
eval: ([2,1],[4,3],[6,5]).>>.reverse 19:50
getting: ((("2", "1"), ("4", "3"), ("6", "5")), ())
this is still a mystery to me
buubot VanilleBert: Error: syntax error at eval line 1, near ".>>"
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fglock & 19:59
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dduncan TimToady, regarding r13532, I think you said "bracket" where you meant to say "parenthesis", in: "A C<do> is assumed immediately after any opening bracket,..." 20:46
so then that's a typo
[particle] 'parenthesis'.isa('bracket') == Bool::True 20:47
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dduncan so what is a [] then? 20:47
[particle] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracket 20:48
lambdabot Title: Bracket - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[particle] however, i don't know that timtoady really meant 'bracket'
dduncan I believe that in technical talk, [] alone means bracket, while {} is called brace and () parenthesis 20:49
or those are common short names to distinguish them
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TimToady I mean any kind of opening bracket, in particular including both ( and [ 20:50
dduncan okay
TimToady especially since one of the places you *really* want list comprehensions is inside [...] 20:51
dduncan well, no-op then 20:52
TimToady but it's problem that there isn't an obvious generic term for bracketing characters that isn't overloaded somehow
not a no-op
at least, not in list context
dduncan I don't suppose that "grouping delimiter" would suffice as a generic term?
TimToady everyone would look at us funny
also, I think there's a tradition of calling parentheses "round brackets" 20:53
[particle] yes, in england i've heard that
dduncan mind you, I recently learned that "butter" has a more broad meaning than just the yellow spread made from milk products ... eg, that margerine and some fruit spreads are also butter by the broader meaning
TimToady I tend to say "square brackets" when I mean [...] specifically
dduncan yes, of course 20:54
TimToady "apple butter"
dduncan ... square brackets, curly braces, round parenthesis
those are very unambiguous
TimToady :P
[particle] cake, hair, pi
dduncan and yes, I had a problem with the name "apple butter" until I learned what "butter" actually meant
that name made it sound like a combination of apple sauce and milk butter, which sounded disgusting 20:55
TimToady I always took "butter" to be a metaphor in such cases.
dentist & 20:56
dduncan p.s. my saying "well no-op then" above was just my way of saying, in that case, "never mind the change suggestion then" 20:58
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ingy [particle]: are you headed here and when? 21:14
[particle] if i do it'll be at least an 90min from now 21:15
will you be there?
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ingy [particle]: wanna meet up later this evening? 21:25
svnbot6 r15123 | putter++ | kp6 FAQ - added information from colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/...sel=22#l66 .
lambdabot Title: #perl6 2007-01-22,Mon, tinyurl.com/2lvl9s
[particle] ingy: i can probably do that
ingy maybe meet here at 7pm
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putter gaal: ping? 21:33
audreyt: ping? 21:34
[particle] ingy: okie. you going offline?
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ingy [particle]: at some point I need to go for a run... 21:46
nothingmuch: ping 21:52
svnbot6 r15124 | putter++ | Move "Integrating KP6 with the test suite" from TASKS to TALK. 21:55
r15124 | putter++ | In which putter argues with himself over its usefulness.
r15125 | putter++ | kp6 FAQ - mention "no tests pass".
putter lambdabot: ?tell fglock *When* are you disappearing for a whole month? (It's in the kp6 FAQ:)
lambdabot Consider it noted.
svnbot6 r15126 | putter++ | TASKS - added "Capture fglock/putter interview info to kp6 faq." 22:19
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svnbot6 r15127 | putter++ | PROBLEMS - if "cpan -i Task::Smoke" fails because Task::TAP::Model 0.06 install fails, just force install Task::TAP::Model. 22:27
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putter Is pil2js known to be broken? 22:31
I'm getting $ ./pugs -Bjs -e 'say 3;' 36483: ReferenceError: _26Main_3a_3astatement_control_3acond is not defined
Same error in make test-js . 22:32
nothingmuch ingy: pong 22:40
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putter anyone: does ./pugs -Bjs -e 'say 3;' work for you? 22:46
audreyt fixing. 22:49
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putter danke 22:54
stevan audreyt: how was POPL? 22:56
TimToady she didn't go
stevan ??
TimToady family emergency
stevan ah
audreyt: well then I hope @family is well 22:57
audreyt it's better now
TimToady audreyt: I hope P6 still fits in your head... :)
stevan audreyt: we can do an informal POPL at some YAPC this year then :) 22:58
we can all pretend to be PhDs for you :)
dduncan good to hear
audreyt TimToady: I hope so too, though at the moment jifty claims my spare attention because obra is arriving soon...
as in, less than 24 hours 22:59
and I wasted too much time watching the LoTR DVD set :/ 23:01
nothingmuch it's not worth it ;-)
that movie really managed to take away 90% of the charm of the book
leaving just the looooooong story
s/movie/vague plural/;
audreyt well, but when you have verses in the book running through your head in sync with movie... 23:02
dduncan I regret that the movie left out the ending of the book
eg, how the home is not unaffected by the worldwide events
nothingmuch that bugged me too
but not as much as how all the characters were flattenned 23:03
dduncan that was a powerful and important part of the story
TimToady well, my favorite chapter was A Conspiracy Unmasked, and that disappeared as well
audreyt putter: the problem is that JS.pm needs to accomodate statement:cond form
TimToady nevertheless, I think the movies will help some people read the book that would not otherwise have sufficient imagination
audreyt which unlike the :if form, takes two arguments as full closures instead of blocks
and so will need to do the pil2js equiv of closure apply .() 23:04
dduncan in regards to the recent "Numeric Semantics" thread on p6l, I wanted to clarify something here before I replied on p6l ...
TimToady I just revised conditionals and loops return values to make it easier to write list comprehensions...
putter audreyt: regards moving things from Prim.hs to Prelude.pm... my fuzzy impression is you've said this is currently doable, and a worthwhile thing. are both of those impressions true?
audreyt I'm checking in something that doesn't do the .() -- it's 7am here and I think I can't think too well
putter ok.
I'll add it to TASKS/TALK ;) 23:05
my thanks
dduncan specifically, regarding the relationship between Num and Int and which does what ... or what you get when you say 1.0 ...
putter contemplates creating a project_planning/QUESTIONS_FOR_AUDREYT file
audreyt putter: my fuzzy impression is as precise as yours
putter lol 23:06
audreyt as in, I recall its doability and worthwhilability
putter hmm, let's see, other 7am questions...
audreyt but as of which parts of Prim.hs is amenable this way I really have no idea
dduncan I would be inclined to say that Int and Num are completely disjoint, but that Int values and Num values can be mapped, as numbers can be mapped with character strings ... also, that any literal numeric declared with a radix point in it is a Num, while those without are an Int 23:07
so 1.0 and 1. are num, 1 is an int
luqui It is certainly not the case that Num does Int
whether Int does Num is up for debate
or already defined :-)
svnbot6 r15128 | audreyt++ | * PIL2JS - Prelude/JS: Add a stub statement:cond form that 23:08
r15128 | audreyt++ | compiles but doesn't really work: The problem is that the
r15128 | audreyt++ | body/else arguments need to be applied as closure, not as block.
dduncan one thing I need a bit of a refresher on is whether a .does relationship is intended to say that one is a subset of the other, or whether they are just mappable
putter getting a feel for OO AST... how far away is, say, pugs being able to output the OO AST for PIL2JS, like it currently does the old one. in audreyt-person-days say, order of magnitude. more like 1, 10, 100, 1000?
dduncan eg, if Int and Num are like I said, Int is not a subset of Num, but they are mappable, so I don't know if .does is appropriate ...
putter person-days rather than calendar days 23:09
luqui is there any difference between a <: b, and a mappable to b?
dduncan on the other hand, if Num .does Str, then it makes sense for Int .does Num
luqui (I mean semantically within the language)
audreyt putter: MO integration and adjustment for AST... order of magnitude is 10, that is if I get sufficient sleep 23:10
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dduncan Is there agreement or disagreement here that 1.0 and 1. should be Num and not Int? I think that best fits with programmer intentions, and makes parsing easy and predictable. 23:11
just 1 should be Int
TimToady luqui: what do you think about [...] implying [do ...]?
putter audreyt: thanks :)
TimToady Last I checked 1. was illegal
dduncan okay
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luqui TimToady, well, I think it's obvious if nothing else 23:12
dduncan then I say 1.0 should be a Num ... agree or disagree?
luqui (4 if 1 < 2)
what else could that mean?
audreyt TimToady: I may be totally out of date... but [say 1; say 2]
is there a do on both sides of ; ?
[4 if 1; 5 if 2] # more concrete
TimToady good question
seems to be implied after ; for ordinary statements... 23:13
so maybe there too.
luqui but I'm not sure about it's expressive power as a list comprehender. have to see it in practice...
TimToady [...] just harvests all values instead of final
audreyt what does (4 if 1; 5 if 2) mean nowadays?
do infix:<;> has some use in () ?
TimToady no use currently, so probably multidim there too 23:14
luqui hey, you know, or a syntax error?
audreyt and ; inside {} forces statement meaning
luqui eh
not really necessary
the way that would catch an error is by a misbalanced parenthesis, which will be caught later anyway
TimToady depends on whether you want a multidim hash, I suppose. :)
audreyt not sure multidim hash can be naturally expressed with semi 23:15
in construction form anyway
TimToady well, you'd like multidim slice subscripts, anyway 23:16
basically the context decides what to do with ; in any case
most of the time we know we can spread void context over all-but-last statement
audreyt presumably (1, 2 ; 3, 4)[1][1] is 4? 23:18
TimToady anyway, without having thought it through entirely, it feels like there's a balance point in there that allows list comprehensions without compromising parsing typology
dunno, certainly (1,2; 3,4)[1;1] is 4
luqui isn't sure of TimToady's definition of typology 23:19
TimToady is anyone?
:)
it's an open question whether [][] is isomorphic to [;] in P6 23:20
luqui okay, funny. but I'm saying I have no idea what you meant by the latter part of that senteence.
TimToady I mean if something's a closure and not a hash composer, we can optimize it. 23:21
knowing statements are mostly in void context
after reading the Lua paper I'm sorely tempted to do all composers with [...] and leave bare {...} only for closures 23:22
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luqui which lua paper? 23:22
luqui wouldn't be terribly opposed to that
TimToady sec
audreyt TimToady: well, sub { @@_[1][1] }.(1,2 ; 3,4) is 1, iirc. 23:23
TimToady www.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/~lhf/ftp/doc/hopl.pdf 23:24
svnbot6 r15129 | putter++ | TASKS/TALK - added "Fix PIL2JS".
TimToady audreyt: yes, but that's with special unpacking 23:26
or special packing, depending on how you look at it. 23:27
take each slice and assume [...] around it...
audreyt *nod*
putter muses "if redsix was taught to emit PIL1, PIL2JS could start evolving again..." 23:28
TimToady but I kinda like the recent development that things like "take" put multidim boundaries in that are usually ignored.
presumably map is the same.
23:29 devogon joined
TimToady but arguably it's lists of lists all the way down, and we're just conventionally ignoring the top N dimensions where N is usually 1. 23:31
dduncan the p6l post is sent 23:35
svnbot6 r15130 | putter++ | TALK - added "KP6 on PIL2JS?" 23:39
23:39 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
putter audreyt: so oo ast looks vaguely like Q2 or Q3 2007? 23:40
s/vaguely/something very vaguely/
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audreyt putter: I don't really know. I think I can resume pugswork once $home work settles a bit. 23:47
I've diverted $job away mostly
but we'll see. I need to run the bank to try to figure out how to abort ACM's reimbursement wire trasfer now... 23:48
bbl
er, run to the back. 23:49
*bank
(evidently sleep deprived ;)) &
putter np. i'm just attempting a rough quantitative feel for when various milestones on the road to xmas might be...
Though putter is a bit puzzled. He doesn't see any missing prerequisites for a full p6 implementation in p6 being written *now* on pugs. So why isn't it? 23:52
TimToady mostly because pugs itself doesn't have its own rule engine yet, I think. 23:53
it's always been a bridge to pcre, parrot, or v6... 23:54
luqui and of course, pugs's data structure handling is buggy, so it's hard to make progress 23:55
(I've been trying to debug it, but I can't get anywhere) 23:56
23:56 diotalevi joined, jrigby joined
putter no nicely working grammar -> can't write grammar yet -> working on parser is unattractive 23:56
luqui: "data structure handling is buggy", elaborate? 23:57
once upon a time there was: pugs oo is buggy -> hard to make progress on something as large as a p6 implementation (but my fuzzy impression is this is believed to no longer be the case)
there is also: no oo ast spec -> discourages writing core ast code and emitters 23:58
are those 2/3 the only things discouraging folks from beginning a full p6-in-p6 implementation now? any other thoughts? 23:59

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