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svn switch --relocate svn.openfoundry.org/pugs svn.pugscode.org/pugs/ | run.pugscode.org | spec.pugscode.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com Set by avar on 16 November 2006. |
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| [particle] | perlers aren't used to dimensions greater than one | 00:00 | |
| TimToady | having one level of auto-list-interpolation also fits in well with the notion that Perl likes interpolative solutions | 00:01 | |
| people grok "Answer = $answer\n" a lot better than "Answer = " ~ $answer ~ "\n" | 00:02 | ||
| [particle] | which is why we now have $?LINE etc | 00:03 | |
| TimToady | P6 is supposed to be more like Perl than P5. :) | 00:04 | |
| (in the good ways...) | 00:05 | ||
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| [particle] | p6 is definitely trending in the interpolative direction | 00:06 | |
| putter | re learning monads, one approach is to learn arrows first. they are a later generalization of monads, and at least to me, make far more sense. then one can work backward to understanding the more limited and twisted monads. ;) | ||
| www.cs.chalmers.se/~rjmh/afp-arrows.pdf www.haskell.org/arrows/ etc | 00:07 | ||
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| Ziggy6 | pugs has a lexer? | 00:13 | |
| found it, Lexer.hs :D | 00:14 | ||
| [particle] | not many languages without lexers exist | 00:15 | |
| written latin almost qualifies | |||
| putter | Ziggy6: also Parser/* | 00:16 | |
| [particle] | GALLIAESTOMNISDIVISAINPARTESTRES | ||
| Ziggy6 | i guess it's too hard to learn monads, parsec and to try to understand the complex pugs parser at the same time :) | ||
| allbery_b has monads and parsec down, but the lexer has defeated him | 00:19 | ||
| putter | the parser can certainly be skimmed. one can get a feel for it's structure without yet knowing enough to write or modify bits... | 00:20 | |
| allbery_b | specifically, trying to fix "- f" being parsed as filetest operator "-f" without breaking everything else | ||
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| allbery_b | couple of us tried to attack it last weekend, managed to break things in such a way that the test suite went into an infinite loop :/ | 00:21 | |
| TimToady | languages with mandatory endings tend to be self clocking | 00:23 | |
| provided the endings can usually be disambiguated from the roots | 00:24 | ||
| kanji vs okurigana works that way too | |||
| allbery_b | <-- learning Hebrew. suffixes and prefixes can *usually* be unambiguously removed from the roots... but not always | 00:25 | |
| [particle] | there are always irregular forms to gum up the works | ||
| allbery_b | not to mention the incredible is-it-a-vowel-or-a-consonant-here? vav | 00:27 | |
| putter | [particle]: re "YOUONLYNEEDVOWELSORSPACESBUTNOTBOTH", "Y NLY ND VWLS R SPCS BT NT BTH". my fuzzy impression is ancient greek went back and forth a bit. | 00:29 | |
| though the human reader may do an entirely separate pass at the first in order to "tokenize" it... | 00:30 | ||
| or read aloud and use language auditory word recognition | 00:31 | ||
| allbery_b | took 'em a while to all agree to appropriate otherwise unused phoenician/aramaic letters for vowels :) it's not like the ancient Greeks were particularly unified | ||
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| luqui | @pl \a -> (>>= b a) | 00:33 | |
| lambdabot | (=<<) . b | ||
| [particle] | nope, plenty of city/states | ||
| allbery_b | interesting that it parsed that, I think it's illegal (need parens around (>>=) to use it as a prefix op) | 00:34 | |
| @pl \a -> b >>= a | |||
| lambdabot | (b >>=) | ||
| allbery_b | @pl \a -> (>>=) b a | 00:35 | |
| lambdabot | (b >>=) | ||
| allbery_b | aha | ||
| @unpl (=<<) . b | |||
| lambdabot | (\ d g -> g >>= (b d)) | ||
| allbery_b | ah, right | 00:36 | |
| duh | |||
| luqui didn't know about unpl | |||
| allbery_b | @. redo unpl (=<<) . b | 00:41 | |
| lambdabot | (\ d g -> do { a <- g; (b d) a}) | ||
| luqui | what's that? | 00:49 | |
| expands even more? | |||
| (that's a great learning tool though) | 00:50 | ||
| allbery_b | redo converts >>= form back to do form; . is composition (it's a haskell lambdabot, of *course* it does composition...) | 01:00 | |
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| allbery_b | sadly, only in prefix form | 01:01 | |
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| putter | random musing (as I continue to try to picture how all the pieces we have could be variously assembled to get us nearer to xmas)... | 01:13 | |
| pil2run is our best backend after pugs itself. its jsperl5 allows it to | 01:14 | ||
| use p5. a r5r (p5 regexs with <rules>) exists. the redsix p5 grammar is written in r5r. | 01:15 | ||
| err, that's "a r5r implementation exists for p5". | |||
| redsix was passing not quite 20% of tests, but the grammar was ripped/derived/kludged from the pugs one, so it should be not horribly incomplete. | 01:17 | ||
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| putter | though it has flaws, such as not integrating ast generation with parsing, so arity-based parse decisions don't work. | 01:18 | |
| so anyway, one random thought is one might translate the redsix grammar and opp from ruby to p5, combine it with Regexp::Engine::Reentrant (or some such), and give jsper an alternate front end. one which, unlike pugs/pil1, could provide object info. | 01:20 | ||
| s/object info/class declarations./ | |||
| pil2js already heavily uses p6 and oo. it just can't get oo info through the pugs/pil1 parser bottleneck. this way it could. | 01:21 | ||
| and p5 could be rewritten as p6, providing a bootstrap. much of what is currently js code could also be rewritten as p6. | 01:22 | ||
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| svnbot6 | r15140 | putter++ | project_planning/TALK - added "redsix on PIL2JS". Feedback encouraged. | 02:32 | |
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| Ziggy6 | ?eval use v5; print "hello" | 02:34 | |
| evalbot_r15139 | 1.0 | ||
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| putter | Does anyone know approximately when pil2js stopped working? I'd like to svn back to then and run a pil2js smoke. tnx. | 02:40 | |
| Else I'll just start walking back through the releases. | 02:41 | ||
| wolverian | binary search is better than linear :) | 02:42 | |
| putter | unless one expects a small k :) | 02:43 | |
| Ziggy6 | hmm, strange, when i try the same thing in my pugs build, i get "Undefined subroutine &main:: called." | 02:47 | |
| putter | no, you're right. also essential is the implicit context that for this I don't really care just when it broke. since pil2js is rather stable (aka wedged waiting for pugs oo ast), any version pre breakage would be fine. releases tend to be less broken than random, so any release from last year should serve. | ||
| Ziggy6: me too. let's see... | 02:49 | ||
| allbery_b | same here. r15101 fwiw | 02:50 | |
| putter | only two t/perl5/ smoke failures - modify_* | ||
| odd | 02:51 | ||
| Ziggy6 | perl5 embedding is supposed to be fully functional? | 02:52 | |
| putter | for some value of "fully" | ||
| bbiab | 02:53 | ||
| allbery_b | interesting. it's the use that triggers the error | 02:58 | |
| luqui | ?eval use v5; my %h = (a => 1); $h{a} | ||
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| evalbot_r15140 | 1 | 02:58 | |
| luqui | neat | ||
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| allbery_b wonders what's up that it works in evalbot | 03:00 | ||
| huh. the tests don't test for this case | 03:02 | ||
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| allbery_b | pugs -e 'use v5;' fails, pugs -e '{use v5;}' fails, pugs -e 'sub foo ($x) {use v5;} foo(0)' succeeds | 03:14 | |
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| allbery_b | pugs -e 'eval "use v5;"' succeeds, likely explaining evalbot (and also the test suite) | 03:17 | |
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| Ziggy6 | should I add a test? | 03:29 | |
| allbery_b | probably a good idea | 03:30 | |
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| putter | about to commit one... | 03:33 | |
| actually, you know... | 03:35 | ||
| 'use v5' simply isn't implemented. all the eval is doing is hiding that from us. and the bug is that pugs -e 'sub foo ($x) {use v5;} foo(0)' compiles. no? | 03:38 | ||
| ./perl5/modify_* is what tests 'use v5', and that's failing. | 03:39 | ||
| so no new test needed. | 03:40 | ||
| allbery_b | hm, yep, use v5 doesn't actually work | 03:44 | |
| Ziggy6 | well, then mp6 won't run on pugs | 03:46 | |
| putter | mp6? isn't the idea to try kp6? ie, use pugs instead of, or in addition to, mp6, in supporting kp6 development. | 03:50 | |
| svnbot6 | r15141 | putter++ | TALK - putter argues with himself about "redsix on PIL2JS". Other participants welcome. | ||
| Ziggy6 | they have almost the same runtime | 03:51 | |
| putter | ah. try replacing "use v5; ..." with "eval('...,:lang<perl5>)"? | 03:52 | |
| allbery_b | actually, I did. | 03:53 | |
| ./pugs -e 'eval "my \@a = (1, 2); print \$a[0]", :lang<perl5>' # empty string output | 03:54 | ||
| I might be doing somethng else silly though | |||
| putter | allbery_b: sorry, "try replacing" was regards kp6 :) | 03:55 | |
| allbery_b | fails with <> quotes too | ||
| ah | |||
| but I think this demonstrates that perl5 mode doesn't quite DTRT | |||
| putter | looks like the last line of output disappears if it doesn't end in a newline. | 04:03 | |
| ?eval eval(q/print "a\nb\n";/,:lang<perl5>) | |||
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| evalbot_r15141 | 1.0 | 04:03 | |
| allbery_b | ah, yes, there it is | 04:04 | |
| oh, and use v5; works in eval with that | 04:05 | ||
| so use v5 works, but something's wrong at the very beginning of a file (or -e). but beginning of an eval works. | 04:06 | ||
| putter | really...? | ||
| Ziggy6 | ?eval 1; use v5; print "test"; | ||
| evalbot_r15141 | OUTPUT[test] Bool::True | ||
| Ziggy6 | nice | ||
| hmm | 04:07 | ||
| ?eval 1; use v5; my %h = (a => 'b') print ${a}; | |||
| evalbot_r15141 | Error: ā¤Unexpected "print"ā¤expecting operator or "," | ||
| Ziggy6 | ?eval 1; use v5; my %h = (a => 'b'); print $h{a}; | ||
| allbery_b | mress:10028 Z$ ./pugs -e 'eval <use 5; my @a = (1, 2); print $a[1], "\n">;' | ||
| 2 | |||
| evalbot_r15141 | Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&a" | ||
| allbery_b | (I presume that v6 does the v6 thing with sigils) | 04:08 | |
| Ziggy6 | ?eval 1; use v5; my %h = (a => 'b'); print $h{'a'}; | ||
| evalbot_r15141 | OUTPUT[] Bool::True | ||
| putter thinks 'use v5' is a noop for p6 (unintentional), and a noop for p5 (intentional). | |||
| allbery_b | if I remove the "use 5" I get an empty string as output (v6 mode variable parsing) | 04:09 | |
| it may ntot be fully implemented, maybe, but it's doing *something* | 04:10 | ||
| Ziggy6 | ?eval use v5; my %h = (a => 'b'); print $h{'a'}; | ||
| evalbot_r15141 | 1.0 | 04:11 | |
| Ziggy6 | odd | ||
| putter | (evalbot may have p5 embedding disabled for security...) | 04:12 | |
| end of day for me | 04:15 | ||
| anyone: any feedback on redsix on pil2js proposal welcome. | |||
| & | |||
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| svnbot6 | r15142 | szabgab++ | optionally generate index.html by smartlinks.pl | 07:06 | |
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| ingy | gour: it's been dead in here for some hours | 14:18 | |
| gour | ingy: well, i'll ask anyway ;) | ||
| ingy | but it usually wakes up in bursts... | ||
| yeah | |||
| gour | audreyt: are haskell bindings for yaml available somewhere? | 14:19 | |
| [particle] | wikipedia says yes | 14:20 | |
| look for HsSyck iirc | |||
| gaal | gour: svn.pugscode.org/pugs/third-party/HsSyck/ | 14:23 | |
| lambdabot | Title: Revision 15142: /third-party/HsSyck | ||
| gour | thanks, i just got it | ||
| long live yaml ;) | 14:24 | ||
| [particle] | death to yaml! long live syck! | ||
| gaal | gour: you may also find this useful: svn.pugscode.org/pugs/src/DrIFT/YAML.hs | 14:26 | |
| and an example usage -- binding Perl 6 to HsSyck -- at svn.pugscode.org/pugs/src/Pugs/Prim/Yaml.hs | 14:27 | ||
| gour is a bit confused with syck vs. yaml :-( | |||
| [particle] | syck is an easier to parse subset of yaml | 14:28 | |
| gour | where is some syck spec available? | 14:29 | |
| [particle] | look at yaml.org | 14:33 | |
| gour | [particle]: i saw that and dl-ed yaml spec, but what is missing in syck? | 14:36 | |
| [particle] | actually, maybe it's not a subset anymore, based on the stuff i'm reading now | 14:37 | |
| it is much faster | |||
| oh, here: whytheluckystiff.net/syck/ | 14:38 | ||
| lambdabot | Title: ( Syck ): YAML for Ruby, Python, PHP and OCaml | ||
| [particle] | look at the Progress Meter section | ||
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| gour | [particle]: thanks a lot. this one is very helpful | 14:39 | |
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| gaal | hmm? syck's a library that parses and emits yaml. | 14:57 | |
| it's written in c and has bindings for lots of moose | |||
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| gaal | you may have been thinking of JSON, [particle] | 14:58 | |
| [particle] | no, syck doesn't support all yaml | ||
| see the link i just posted -- however it's much more complete than the last time i looked | 14:59 | ||
| gaal | yeah, but near enough | ||
| [particle] | indeed | ||
| gaal | it's not subset in the sense that it's a well defined intentional part of yaml | ||
| [particle] | death to yaml! long live syck! | ||
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| xinming_ misses audreyt. >_< Can anyone tell me if audreyt is busy with work? <-- Sorry If I resend the message. :-) | 18:02 | ||
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| nferraz | hello! | 18:56 | |
| anybody here working with perl6 in perl5? | |||
| ofer0 | hey | ||
| kolibrie | nferraz: I'm doing a bunch of grammar stuff under v6.pm | 19:00 | |
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| nferraz | cool | 19:03 | |
| I was trying a simple map... | 19:04 | ||
| since it didn't work as I expected, I built a small test case... | |||
| pasteling | "nferraz" at 194.65.5.240 pasted "map.t (test case)" (22 lines, 325B) at sial.org/pbot/22634 | 19:09 | |
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| audreyt | TimToady: S04:93 has this form -- is it archaic? | 20:38 | |
| constant Num PI { 3 } | |||
| I thought we removed block-init from "has" | 20:39 | ||
| seems strange to only allow it for constant decl | |||
| TimToady | seems somewhat archaic | 20:44 | |
| but the block-init of has was '= { 3 }' | |||
| I think the idea was more that you could put either a block or an = on any declaration. | 20:45 | ||
| audreyt | my $x { 123 }; | ||
| TimToady | but in the case of a sub, it doesn't autocall. | ||
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| TimToady | but I think that was before we had state = FIRST semantics | 20:45 | |
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| audreyt | right. pseudoassign seems to obsolete this form | 20:46 | |
| TimToady | and it conflicts with hash decl now. | ||
| audreyt | yup. | ||
| TimToady | so it's dead | ||
| any feelings on recent design changes? | 20:47 | ||
| audreyt | autotokening etc makes sense. | 20:48 | |
| a two-level list context seems a little bit bizzare. | |||
| what happens when you have multislices composed from multislices | 20:49 | ||
| and you use them in smooth (linear list) context? | |||
| does it flatten all the way recursively? | |||
| TimToady | As far as they're captures, I think. | ||
| which is one level for ordinary list return, two for mappish things | 20:50 | ||
| audreyt | no, what I mean is (probably not Capture related) | ||
| @@multislice := map { $_, map { $_ * $^moose}, 1..5 }, 1..3 | 20:51 | ||
| does it flatten to 1,2,3,4,5,2,4,6,8,10, ... ? | |||
| TimToady | I believe the inner map is flatted by that list context by default | ||
| unless you chunky it inside | 20:52 | ||
| audreyt | ok, so mlist context doesn't propagate | ||
| gaal mooses | |||
| stevan moves quickly away from gaal and covers his nose | 20:53 | ||
| audreyt | @@multislice := map { $_, $_ * 10 }, 1..3 | ||
| @@multislice.perl # ( (1, 10) ; (2, 20) ; (3, 30) ) | |||
| [particle] thinks stevan should cover his own nose | |||
| audreyt | correct? | 20:54 | |
| and there's currently no easy way to make three-dimensional literal? | |||
| TimToady | sec... | 20:55 | |
| sorry, sitting in a tire store getting a tire repaired... | 20:56 | ||
| using GoogleWiFi that Mountain View provides, yay | 20:57 | ||
| audreyt | cool | ||
| TimToady | um, isn't (1,2;3,4;5,6) 3-D? | ||
| @foo[1,2; 3,4; 5,6] | |||
| lambdabot | Unknown command, try @list | 20:58 | |
| audreyt | well, in arglists it's 2d... | ||
| it's 3d when dereferencing | |||
| yay inconsistency | |||
| TimToady | well, my tire's done, so I need to wander on down the road... | 20:59 | |
| audreyt | k | ||
| TimToady | thanks | ||
| pocketa, pocketa, pocketa & | |||
| audreyt | maybe we call it a Matrix containing 3 derefs. | ||
| 3d-slices | |||
| which is really just a matrix with 3 rows | 21:00 | ||
| audreyt ponders "matrix context" | |||
| in which case | 21:02 | ||
| sub f (*@_) { ... flattens into Seq ... } | |||
| sub f (*@@_) { ... nonflattens into Matrix ... } | |||
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| bonesss is away: banho | 22:44 | ||
| audreyt | miyagawa: JSON::syck now raises proper exception when passed circular refs | 23:05 | |
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| miyagawa | audreyt: great | 23:05 | |
| audreyt | also I finally effected the license change to MIT | ||
| which is iirc okay with you, I hope | 23:06 | ||
| miyagawa | sure | ||
| audreyt | also finally structures like | 23:07 | |
| [ $unicode_string, $some_raw_octets ] | |||
| can be dumped fine in YAML::Syck | |||
| (the raw octets gets !binary typed and base64 encoded) | |||
| (with $YAML::Syck::ImplicitBinary) | |||
| but sadly JSON::Syck has no bytebuffer support | 23:08 | ||
| so we're still stuck with either/or there | |||
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| miyagawa | ah | 23:08 | |
| audreyt | limitation of json spec | ||
| miyagawa | hmm | ||
| audreyt | no support for x'001234ff' literals | ||
| miyagawa | 1) dump both as UTF-8 | ||
| 2) dump bytes as UTF-8 and unicode string as \uXXX? | 23:09 | ||
| audreyt | uhm | ||
| problem is that json has no \xff form | |||
| miyagawa | yeah | 23:10 | |
| audreyt | so you can't tell \uff from \xff | ||
| so it's mostly moot :/ | |||
| miyagawa | I remember that the spec suggests all bytes should be in UTF-8 | ||
| audreyt | that I think is what we currently do | ||
| bbiab | 23:11 | ||
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