pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/
Set by diakopter on 11 July 2007.
00:02 agjal is now known as meppel
enigmus Pugs::Compiler::Perl6 is required at that line 65, so I try to install that, then Pugs::Compiler::Regex was missing, try by hand through cpan. Then Slurp was missing, so I did that by hand, but when I try to reinstall the previous package, Slurp is still not found. Am I doing something wrong? Why aren't all these packages installed automatically as dependencies? 00:02
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meppel good night 01:29
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tsilence is it true that a first pre-beta version of perl6 will be released this week? 04:33
awwaiid depends on what you consider perl6, probably. and what you consider release. 04:34
possibly what you consider "pre-beta"
tsilence but will anything be released at all? :D 04:35
Tene tsilence: parrot had a nice release a few days ago.
tsilence Tene: that's all for this year, that's what you mean, right? 04:36
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Tene Oh, right, Christmas. 04:37
tsilence Tene: this is the comment i am talking about: "According to someone I work with, who is part of perl6, they are expecting a real release sometime next week." 04:38
Tene tsilence: yes, unfortunately. Parrot plans to have a 1.0 release next November, if I'm remembering the roadmap correctly, and they've been very good about meeting milestones on time so far.
tsilence Tene: do you think it's based on a confusion around this typical joke?
www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=19075
lambdabot Title: OSNews.com
tsilence 2007-12-22 16:52:04 UTC in reply to "Perl 6?"
Tene tsilence: yes, probably.
tsilence of course, this is just a forum comment!
Alias_ tsilence: There's been rumblings of the POSSIBILITY of packing up "something" as a single executable and calling it a Perl 6 Alpha 04:39
tsilence Alias_: wow, cool
Alias_ We have enough pieces working now that we're hitting the tipping point where that is at least possible
But of the few people capable of doing it, I'm not aware of any actually doing so
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tsilence Alias_: some release at all can only be useful 04:45
Alias_: don't you think so?
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Alias_ Well, it needs to hit SOME threshhold of usefulness 04:52
tsilence Alias_: i know.. but still
Alias_ And progress on the stuff that would be included is moving very quickly 04:53
tsilence ah, that's cool
Alias_ So I imagine once the basics are in place, there'd be an ideal time to build it
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tsilence until not long ago i was still feeling perl6 was too much of a change to become possible anytime soon 04:54
now i am regaining hope
:)
Alias_ Well, there's been a few low points 04:56
The first was before audreyt++ created pugs
And the second was before Parrot 0.5 (imo anyways)
tsilence btw, pugs seems to be stagnating
Alias_ Well, in the larger scheme of things, I'm not even sure if it's MEANT to survive the release of Perl 6 04:57
Certainly the test suite from pugs is now the test suite for the main release
And it's served it's role of trying out Perl 6 "for real" very well
tsilence right 04:58
Alias_ Provided feedback to Larry on language issues etc
tsilence you mean you don't think it's meant to survive the release of *any* perl6? 05:02
Alias_ I mean that once the official version of perl 6 is done, the focus on it will most likely be greatly reduced 05:03
Then again, Perl 6 is meant to have multiple implementations...
tsilence Alias_: but why isn't this obvious, why do you say "i am not sure"?
Alias_: oh, i see
Alias_ Because I'm not a Perl 6 insider :)
I just know people and stuff
tsilence Alias_: so it is not considered to be a test implementation only
Alias_ Well, insomuch as having a working version of what is in Larry's head for testing purposes, it's a test implementation 05:04
tsilence Alias_: well, i meant it the other way around, but i see (your answer works either way anyway) :)
Alias_ Who's to say what end it will eventually be put
tsilence why those low points? what produced the pessimism? 05:07
Alias_ lack of visible forward progress, or actual forward progress
jql the inability of outside contributors to participate
Alias_ And that too
jql what exactly was the peanut gallery supposed to do to help before pugs? 05:08
I threw popcorn at @larry, but that got boring quick
Alias_ They yammered in the language channel and read summaries about parrot minutia
As for the more recent of the two, pugs was kinda stagnating a bit, both from audreyt being sick, and because it was sending tentacles out in every direction without really helping the main trunk 05:09
tsilence jql: why the inability of outside contributors to participate?
Alias_ tsilence: If you can't actually execute code, what's left to do 05:10
jql most contributors just write code
Alias_ You can talk about stuff endlessly, but nobody can actually TRY anything
tsilence Alias_: heh
jql running a "mental" compiler and analyzing the language that way is a project for a CS class, not an open-source project. 05:11
Alias_ Perl/CPAN has a strong "People that do not contribute, do not count" culture
People WANT to code
tsilence jql: oh, i misinterpreted your "inability" as referring to their being somehow restricted access 05:12
Alias_ Restricted due to responsibility contention
jql no. as audrey glaringly pointed out, anyone can pick up the torch and run with it
tsilence Alias_: aha, so that too
Alias_ Only a few people can hack the parrot internals before it gets messy
tsilence right
Alias_ But then again, not that many people CAN hack the parrot internals 05:13
That leaves all the rest of us mere mortals out of the loop
tsilence it's understandable
[particle] really, how many folks are interested in writing a virtual machine?
Alias_ Pugs let the unwashed masses have something to do
Like writing what could be the production test suite for Perl 6 (plus actually trying P6 for real, and doing crazy shit with haskell and javascript) 05:14
jql <-- unwashed illiterate serf
Alias_ <-- doesn't even do stuff below the language surface :)
[particle] <-- parrot illuminati
jql <-- somewhat responsible for ??!!
Alias_ is but a mere toolchain weeny in comparison to the illuminati
tsilence [particle]: so you're a contributor to parrot?
[particle] i am
jql accepts the blame
[particle] ??!!++ 05:15
tsilence [particle]: what will/can make it so special, really?
Auzon <-- wants to help
[particle] parrot's a virtual machine designed to support dynamic languages like perl 6 05:16
it's taken us a while to get where we are because this is cutting edge, and *hard*
tsilence [particle]: what is cutting edge, the fact that it supports dynamic languages? 05:17
[particle] so, microsoft and sun have been putting efforts into catching up with us
and we're trying to catch up with them
Alias_ tsilence: That it supports them as first class citizens without crippling them, yes
[particle] much of the parrot architecture hasn't been done to target real world languages
tsilence Alias_: will it support python, btw? 05:18
[particle] for instance, unification of events and threads into one syntem
*system
Alias_ I believe there's a python compiler in there already, at some level of usefulness
[particle] parrot will support javascript, python, ruby, perl, tcl, etc
Alias_ Not sure what state it's in
tsilence [particle]: you mean as in "hasn't yet"?
jql javascript. now there's a language I wanna see on parrot 05:19
tsilence [particle]: any idea about the size it will have (in mbs)?
[particle] there is no high-level language running on top of parrot that can be seen as complete, because parrot is incomplete
Alias_ particle: You just need to find a language that doesn't have any of the features that parrot doesn't have yet :)
Surely the bf language could be made relatively complete
[particle] tsilence: the size of the vm? i don't know, really. my main focus has been completeness and correctness. optimization follows
well, i worked hard to get perl 1 passing some tests over the last few weeks 05:20
Khisanth Alias_: and who would be using bf as their language of choice? :)
Alias_ Khisanth: You missed a great talk at YAPC::AU
[particle] ooh, yeah, bf is running on parrot, so is hq9+
Tene Alias_: parrot has an hq9+ implementation. ;) 05:21
ETOOLATE
Alias_ See, there ya go
[particle] :D
Auzon bye
Khisanth hrm I thought it had BASIC as well
[particle] the parrot compiler toolkit is *awesome*. it makes writing compilers so easy
Alias_ Could that be considered complete though?
jql lolparrot?
[particle] no more lex/yacc garbage
i expect lolparrot to be complete before april 1 :) 05:22
jql very necessary. :)
tsilence are any ruby or python guys contributing to parrot?
Tene Hmm. Anyone currently working on lolparrot?
Auzon What's lolparrot?
jql lolcode for parrot
Auzon Ah
[particle] yes, at times. there was a lull in contributions while we got our new object model and compiler toolkit in place
jql I CAN HAZ STDIO?
err, s/^I// apparently 05:23
[particle] tsilence: now that that's up and working, we're actively hacking on perl6, and adding new things all the time
Alias_ PRINTER CAT SAYZ HELLO WROLD!!!
[particle] i hope soon to branch out and help the ruby/js folks get their implementations converted to the new tools, and extend those implementations
Alias_ particle: Do you have a Perl::Dist-like compiler toolchain for building a "dist" ?
tsilence are any ruby or python guys contributing to parrot? and, if not, why not? i mean, isn't it in their best interest? 05:24
[particle] alias_: like, a perl6 exe?
Alias_ particle: Right
[particle] alias_: we're working on it. chromatic and i have a small piece (30 lines?) of c code that will take parrot bytecode and make it into a native exe 05:25
so, we just need to be able to find all the bytecode files that should be in a specific dist, merge them, and package it up
Alias_ ok
Might I recommend doing it Perl::Dist-style though
[particle] i'll take a look at perl::dist, i'm not familiar
Alias_ Perl::Dist is the toolkit we use to build Vanilla/Strawberry Perl 05:26
[particle] ah, excellent.
Alias_ > perldist Perl::Dist::Strawberry "file://c|/minicpan/"
lambdabot Parse error at "::Str..." (column 20)
Alias_ 1.5 hours later an .exe installer pops out
[particle] i've got to test strawberry 5.10 with parrot. i couldn't build parrot on strawberry 5.8.8
Alias_ If you hit trouble let me know 05:27
[particle] roger, wilco
tsilence i've just read about lolcode. never heard of it. it's really funny!!
Alias_ After the new year I'll probably have recovered from the last 1-2 weeks
And be able to think about coding on Perl::Dist again
[particle] we're looking for folks to help us write the perl6 compiler. patrick michaud and i should soon be writing more docs, tutorials, and articles to get folks started 05:28
Alias_ I'm mostly interested in the toolchain/6CPAN side of it
I really couldn't be bothered dealing with the language itself :)
[particle] well, i'd love to see a perl6 distribution
Alias_ I'd be happy to make one 05:29
[particle] ok, then we need to talk.
Alias_ The CPAN crew have been ready for years to start hacking on the 6CPAN, but nobody has any real idea wtf the language is gunna be like to work with
So all we have is various specs that in my opinion all suck
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[particle] written in p6? 05:30
Alias_ Well, as I understand it, the big difference will be the need to deal with multiple languages
[particle] yes, indeed
Alias_ There's a myriad of issues that introduces
And I'm sure myself, Schwern, rjbs have stuff in our heads how that might happen 05:31
But we need something we can touch
And experiment
[particle] hope you can get together this conference season
Alias_ I plan to do both the big northern ones if I can
[particle] the db schema is pretty central to 6cpan
otherwise lookups could take infinity 05:32
Alias_ I'd say we're still back at conceptual phase
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Alias_ I should note I'm also involved in a CCAN atm :) 05:32
CPAN for C, with Rusty Russel and friends
[particle] really? didn't know that
Alias_ It's less than 3 weeks old, even conceptually
We shared breakfast a couple of mornings at YAPC::AU 05:33
[particle] get llvm's bits hosted there
Alias_ llvm?
[particle] it's a virtual machine
we'd like to steal their jit
it'd be nice if it were packaged in a standard repo somewhere :) 05:34
Alias_ Well, CCAN is also at the stage of working out what exactly a "package" means and such
There's language specific issues
I imagine 6PAN is going to have issues with bootstrapping for example
Especially with muoltiple languages around 05:35
[particle] sure, each with a different idea of package, and a different install method
i'd hate to see the configure process for 6pan 05:36
do you have every tool imaginable? let's bring out the giant probe and see.... 05:37
Alias_ shrugs
So yeah, there's $stuff that needs to be worked out 05:38
Not to mention dealing with multiple language communities...
Python should be fun...
"Hi Python guys, we'd like you to totally change your distro packaging" 05:39
Anyways, this is why we need something tangible :)
We have a whole nother set of $hard problems once you guys solve YOUR $hard problems
[particle] sure. and be on the lookout for gpan. once google gets wind of what you're doing... 05:40
Alias_ meh
CPAN's require consultation with communities
Google is too insulated in my opinion
[particle] they do own guido
Alias_ point 05:41
And they added the release manager this year too
[particle] so it begins. 05:42
anyway, you've found good solutions to hard problems before. i have faith. 05:43
and i'll make sure parrot doesn't totally suck
(best i can)
tsilence Alias_: do you think the pythoners will accept it?
[particle] heads to bed 05:44
night all!
Alias_ tsilence: The Pythonistas have a religious aversion to anything Perl 05:45
tsilence: It will probably come down to battling network effects at ten paces 05:46
If the 6PAN has some absolutely killer functionality, and adoption rates rise enough, Python will have no choice but to adopt it 05:49
In which case, I win
:)
(Assuming I get some say in the 6PAN design) 05:50
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tsilence Alias_: but how can python adopt 6pan? 06:35
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Alias_ tsilence: If 6PAN supports module installation, there's no reason it shouldn't support python packages 06:42
Or 6PAN packages IMPLEMENTED in Pthon
tsilence Alias_: i see 06:43
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Rahj I was just reading an old article about Perl 6. Could someone tell me what the latest version is? I can't find a channel called perl7 or perl8. Are you up to 9 or 10 yet? 10:09
faxathisia latest version of what? 10:10
Rahj Of Perl
faxathisia 5.something
6 isn't finished yet
Rahj That's impossible. I read years ago that they were working on it. 10:11
faxathisia What's impossible?
Rahj Just kidding. I'm Wassercrats.
faxathisia What does Wassercrats mean?
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Rahj In Swahili it means "help! There's a wombat in my kitchen!" 10:13
faxathisia Are the Swahili really that afraid of wombat, that they need an entire word for this situation? 10:14
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Rahj There's a legend that a wombat wiped out an ancient village because the villagers wouldn't feed it the rare Wombat fruit. 10:18
Isn't Audrey still active on some forum, writing about Perl? I could have sworn I saw recent messages from her. 10:20
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Rahj How pathetic is it that the colabti log of this is prettier than ChatZilla. :( 10:36
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tuxdna hello chacha_chaudhry 13:41
chacha_chaudhry tuxdna: hello 13:42
tuxdna chacha_chaudhry: did u build pugs
chacha_chaudhry: I mean successfully. I am still getting errors. 13:43
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chacha_chaudhry tuxdna: yes, will be back in a while 13:45
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chacha_chaudhry part 13:47
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Aankhen`` What the...? 13:56
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pugs_svn r19244 | lwall++ | cut-n-paste error noticed by perljam++ 16:43
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TimToady gah, how did P5 end up with a symmetrical smartmatch when we made it assymetrical in P6 a long time ago... 18:27
wolverian I was thinking it was related to the lack of proper signatures 18:29
but that only holds for subrefs..
and even then it doesn't really make sense, I suppose
jjore-m last time I looked p5 matched what was written about p6 (which was many months ago). 18:30
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TimToady smartmatch should be dispatched first by the type of the pattern, or it's difficult to optimize effectively. 18:37
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TimToady when 42 should always do a numeric match, and when "foo" should do a string match 18:38
dlocaus . 18:39
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dlocaus merry christmas everyone! ;) 18:44
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TimToady likewise! 18:45
anyway, the current P5 sematics makes it *impossible* optimize a numeric switch to a jump table. 18:48
*semantics
*make
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TimToady not to mention s/optimize/to optimize/ 18:51
wolverian hmm 18:53
I also don't like how $foo ~~ @bar is the same as $foo ~~ \@bar and $foo ~~ (my @bar = ...) doesn't work 18:54
s/ and/, but/
didn't try $foo ~~ [my @foo = ...], hopefully that works at least :)
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TimToady also means that the p5-to-p6 translator will have to just give up and throw "p5when 42" in there, in case the given reverses the test... 18:59
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Limbic_Region TimToady - is someone keeping MAD up to date (lots of syntax changes with 5.10.0)? 19:25
TimToady - more importantly, will MAD help p5 -> p6 if the p5 code in question was before MAD existed? 19:26
TimToady - also, any progress on longest token matcher? 19:27
TimToady - finally, happy holidays and thanks for another year of hard work and dedication ;-)
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pmurias Limbic_Region: why wouldn't MAD work for code written before it's creation? 19:38
or do you mean for code no longer parsed by newer perls?
Limbic_Region pmurias - eating a sandwich, be with you in a second 19:42
pmurias - I mean for code that either no longer parses or functions differently 19:43
pmurias - for instance, pseudo-hashes
pmurias Limbic_Region: AFAIK code that just function diffrently would just need special treatment in the translator 19:45
Limbic_Region: is it a big issue for you?
* functions, differently 19:46
Limbic_Region pmurias - I am not overly concerned, I am just not overly familiar with it and so was wondering
Khisanth Limbic_Region: well for pseudo-hashes, if it doesn't work in the "current" perl5 why would anyone expect them to work in perl6? 20:00
pmurias Limbic_Region: it could be better to have an old perl->p5 converter and run it before the p5->p6 one
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pmurias fglock: merry christmas ;) 21:10
fglock pmurias: feliz natal :) 21:11
pmurias in the "Perl 6 Design Minutes" you mentioned that features would be lost when using Moose, what sort of? 21:13
fglock anonymous classes, which I'm not sure Perl 6 supports anyway 21:16
pmurias fglock: Class::MOP::Class has &create_anon_class 21:17
fglock v6.pm already uses Moose without problem 21:18
problems
pmurias: do you think kp6-Moose makes sense? 21:19
pmurias thinking 21:20
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fglock v6.pm also uses Data::Bind, Sub::Multi and other perl5 tricks 21:21
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pmurias fglock: perl5 interoperability would be nice 21:21
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fglock actually, we could almost reuse the v6.pm backend 21:23
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fglock s/backend/runtime/ 21:24
pmurias do you think we would get bearable speed for a compiler bootstraped that way?
fglock I'm trying to implement "Pad.pm" in Parrot
not really 21:25
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pmurias it should be much faster than the mp6 one 21:25
fglock maybe - the new token implementation is faster 21:27
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TimToady yes, P6 supports anonymous classes; in fact, it requires them 21:27
(or mixins can't work right)
pmurias fglock: although i tend to underestimate the fact that anything can be slower the mp6-based kp6 ;) 21:28
TimToady Limbic_Region: some effort was made to update MAD for 5.10, but doubtless there is some bitrot there
fglock TimToady: merry christmas 21:29
TimToady feliz natal :)
fglock I'm more into the Channuka thing :) 21:30
pmurias i have my 18 birthday today too ;) 21:31
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fglock happy birthay pmurias! 21:31
pmurias thanks :) 21:32
fglock birthday 21:33
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fglock dynlexpad.pmc in Parrot looks a bit like Pad.pm in kp6 21:34
pmurias looking 21:36
fglock it looks like the Scheme compiler is the only place it is used
I wonder if it would make sense to write a pmc for kp6 - this looks like a hack 21:37
pmurias fglock: it looks a bit like Scope 21:39
does it handle outer?
fglock I'm not sure, I think it does
but maybe outer is a low level VM thing 21:40
I'm not sure how it works in parrot
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fglock I'm still learning Parrot - and the Parrot culture too 21:44
pmurias i'm reading pdd20 21:46
PerlJam "parrot culture" is an odd thing to see written down.
fglock PerlJam: I mean, you can't just get to the irc channel and ask for a feature 21:47
PerlJam sure you could! But what reaction are you hoping to elicit :) 21:48
btw, did you see ruoso's post to perlmonks? I can't help but have mixed emotions about it. In one sense it's more "strength through diversity" and in another it's less brain power working on the stuff that I think matters most 21:51
fglock ruoso is here :)
ruoso says: i think diversity may be the only way for getting p6 really out 21:52
re Parrot, I probably need to learn more about it, first 21:53
Parrot has several semantic layers, I need to choose the right one 21:54
PerlJam With the Parrot Compiler Toolikit, implementing perl6 on parrot seems quite imminent (more so than ever). Either way, as long as we get a perl 6 in the end, I'm happy :-) 21:56
fglock: there was a time when I thought that you would beat the parrot implementation to a perl6, but now I think it's swung the other way. 21:58
fglock PerlJam: re Toolkit, I've been playing with it, and I'm trying to contribute to "perl6" - but I'm having trouble mapping the kp6 feature set to parrot 21:59
I can't see yet how to add some kp6 features to "perl6" 22:00
PerlJam such as? 22:01
pmurias fglock: LexPad seems to be like Scope.vars
fglock pugs: { my $x; BEGIN { $x=3 }; say $x } 22:02
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[3ā¤]
fglock PerlJam: "perl6" doesn't have a way to define lexicals at compile-time, yet 22:03
the kp6 AST has a place to store the lexical environment of the program under compilation 22:05
I'm trying to find the Parrot counterpart
pmurias LexInfo
fglock: have you read pdd20? 22:06
fglock pmurias: can you create LexInfo and LexPad using PIR? this could be it 22:07
pmurias don't know 22:09
fglock re read: maybe I should reread
pmurias sleep& 22:10
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fglock PerlJam: I'm still looking for alternate implementations 22:13
this is not a priority for perl6,
but kp6 depends on it for bootstrapping 22:14
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fglock PerlJam: re diversity vs. brainpower, 22:21
I'm divided between kp6 and perl6
PerlJam Hmm. 22:23
fglock perl6 requires hacking the whole tool stack, if you want to make real contributions
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PerlJam I never thought so much that it *required* hacking the whole stack, though I guess you're right as my interactions have basically been doing that. 22:26
But I think that's just a function of the flux that parrot/pct are in. Once things settle down a bit, you can make meaninful contributions in specific areas easily I think 22:27
fglock I hope I get to it soon :)
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fglock bbl & 22:40
solar_ant hi all 22:41
i ahve heard that perl6 doesnt have references
PerlJam hello solar_ant. No, it has Captures.
solar_ant wonder how lists of lists and such data structures are made possible
PerlJam solar_ant: transparently
solar_ant PerlJam: where can I read about it 22:42
PerlJam dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html 22:43
lambdabot Title: Synopses - perl6
solar_ant thanks PerlJam :) 22:46
wolverian spec.pugscode.org might be nicer 22:50
lambdabot Title: Official Perl 6 Documentation 22:51
wolverian with the tocs
solar_ant the little I have seen looks great 22:53
hoping for it to release soon !
wolverian: this site is much easier to read 22:54
wolverian which?
solar_ant spec.pugscode.org
wolverian good :) 22:55
PerlJam It's all the same stuff, just in different packaging :) 22:56
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solar_ant yeah PerlJam :) 22:58
22:58 fglock left
solar_ant I meant easier to read as in the layout 22:59
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