»ö« | perl6.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo: / pugs: / std: | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by Juerd on 28 August 2009.
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colomon rakudo: say 360.sin; 00:32
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Method 'sin' not found for invocant of class 'Int'␤»
colomon rakudo: say 360.0.sin;
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«0.958915723414307␤»
colomon rakudo: say 360.0.sin('degrees');
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«-2.44921270764475e-16␤»
colomon rakudo: say 360.0.sin('radians'); 00:34
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«0.958915723414307␤»
colomon rakudo: say (360.0).sin('radius');
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«0.958915723414307␤»
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s1n pmichaud: my logs don't show anything, so the test may have just consumed every bit of my memory and the kernel never killed the app 01:27
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rindolf Hi all. 01:38
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pugs_svn r28118 | quietfanatic++ | [perl6.org] Realigned header by shrinking it a little 02:03
quietfanatic It's been bothering me long enough.
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s1n nuts, i just noticed i restarted my ironman status earlier this month 03:07
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pugs_svn r28119 | kyle++ | label the tests for RT #68726 03:20
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diakopter interested that perl6.org is not url-shortened by Twitter 04:26
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pugs_svn r28120 | leto++ | [t/spec] Add tests for hyperop version of min/max 05:26
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dukeleto rakudo: say (1i,-2i).min 06:32
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Multiple Dispatch: No suitable candidate found for 'cmp', with signature 'PP->I'␤in sub Any::_block1486 (src/gen_setting.pm:245)␤called from method Any::min (src/gen_setting.pm:254)␤called from Main (/tmp/VFGkiehQgK:2)␤»
dukeleto what would the preferred behavior be there, since complex numbers are not ordered? NaN ? or does it does is return the number with minimum abs() ? 06:34
s/does it does is/does it/
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Woodi hallo, is Rakudo official perl6 ? 06:36
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TimToady Woodi: anything that passes the official test suite is official Perl 6 06:40
(nothing does yet) 06:41
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dukeleto Woodi: i think the last time I heard, rakudo was passing about %68 of the spec test suite. rakudo.org/status 06:47
Woodi ppls in #perl seems to be strongly hating p6 idea... 06:49
mr_ank You mean Camelia?
dukeleto Woodi: #perl is a different world
pugs_svn r28121 | leto++ | [t/spec] Add test for sorting floats with Inf/NaN in S32-list/sort.t
TimToady #perl likes to strongly hate lots of things
the discouragement of hate in Perl 6 is one of the things they hate :) 06:50
dukeleto Woodi: people there like to spread negativity, but they don't seem to actually produce anything other than trolling.
Woodi heh. i think that better will win :) 06:51
mr_ank you mean stuff like Moose?
Or Catalyst?
I'm confused, what exactly have you produced?
TimToady I've produced confusion :) 06:52
TimToady is pretty good at that...
mr_ank i wish i could be paid to produce that for 10 years :P 06:55
sjohnson people in #perl are kind of mean
they hurt baby!
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snarkyboojum last I heard perl6 was mostly a volunteer effort :) 06:57
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Woodi and what about parrot - someone started optimizing it for performance ? 06:58
dukeleto Woodi: that would be many people, but chromatic is very active in that area 07:01
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pugs_svn r28122 | leto++ | [t/spec] Add test for sqrt(-0.0) 07:28
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dukeleto t/spec/TODO mentions a file t/deprecated-syntax.pod that doesn't seem to exist any more 07:36
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azawawi hi 07:48
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sjohnson hey 07:50
oops, too late
（´ー｀　）
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Su-Shee good morning. :) 08:10
rindolf Su-Shee: morning. 08:16
Su-Shee: how is Sunday called?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_P._Brooks - hmmm.... he won the Turing Award. 08:17
carlin dukeleto: svn.pugscode.org/pugs/t/deprecated-syntax.pod 08:18
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dukeleto carlin++ 08:18
Su-Shee rindolf: literal translation: sonn (sonne/sun) tag (day) 08:19
rindolf Su-Shee: no, I mean if Sat is Su-Shee's slacking day - what is Sunday?
Su-Shee rindolf: ah :)) 08:20
rindolf: planning and coding day.
rindolf Su-Shee: ah.
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rindolf Su-Shee: someone quoted Reddit about perl6.org on #perlcafe 08:21
Su-Shee rindolf: the manly gay feminine part? ;)
rindolf Su-Shee: hmm... it was said by EvanCarroll 08:22
carlin we should make camelia flash different colours, that'd give them something to complain about ;)
rindolf www.reddit.com/r/programming/commen...rg/c0cjjil - this one.
Su-Shee I can add blink tags and marquees. ;)
rindolf Su-Shee: does perl6.org has some nifty :hover effects? 08:23
Nothing too intrusive just background colour change, etc.
Su-Shee rindolf: pugs main developer is transgender, so a little gay vibe seems perfectly reasonable to me. (that comment I really like.)
(but it's a woman..)
carlin -4 points 08:24
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rindolf Su-Shee: you should also add -webkit-rounded-corners 08:26
Su-Shee: too bad Opera doesn't have something like that.
sjohnson how's it going carlin ?
hi Su-Shee
rindolf Su-Shee: I once read a fortune cookie that said "I'm a Lesbian born in a man's body." 08:27
carlin Hi sjohnson :)
Su-Shee rindolf: I have border-radius for both. 08:28
rindolf Su-Shee: ah.
Su-Shee: perl-begin.org/temp/ - Alan Haggai worked on that with my input.
Stretchy. 08:29
carlin the css validator doesn't like browser-specific border radii :(
rindolf Fluid.
Munctional!
carlin: yes, it's kinda inane.
Su-Shee carlin: yes. it's upcoming css3 which is supported by all major relatively recent browsers and will change to "border-radius" then. but it's not valid css2.x
carlin: the next years will be somewhat fuzzy because all browsers are nowadays very much faster with implementing standards than the w3c actually releasing them. 08:30
carlin true 08:33
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Su-Shee (did anyone realize how nice the page looks in lynx? :) 08:35
carlin Except the alt-text on camelia it looks quite good :p 08:38
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carlin wishes sites like reddit could provide constructive feedback rather than "it causes seizures" 08:41
Su-Shee carlin: I have a new version in the making anyway...
carlin Oh, nice 08:42
Su-Shee carlin: and many male techies will never like anything remotely "cute" or brightly colored..
carlin Is their a preview of the new live anywhere?
Su-Shee carlin: alway at sushee.no-ip.org/p6p/ 08:43
carlin: but it's really pre-pre-pre (until I've finished my coffee :)
carlin have a link saying "if you are a male techie click here" which changes the website to a black background with white monospace text 08:44
that'll make everyone happy
Su-Shee *hihihi* ok :)) easily done :))
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rindolf Su-Shee: I don't see the download link. 08:49
cognominal I wonder if color choices are only cultural bias 08:50
Su-Shee rindolf: in lynx?
rindolf But I like the briefer discussions.
Su-Shee: no - here - sushee.no-ip.org/p6p/
Su-Shee cognominal: of course they are. ask what everyone besides israel thinks about light blue in the middle east. ;)
rindolf Su-Shee: I suggest making the colours more pastelly.
Su-Shee: and the fonts of the headers larger. 08:51
Su-Shee rindolf: I've tried. Rejected by commitee :)
rindolf Su-Shee: and perhaps not phrase them as questions.
But rather "Download"
Or "About"
Or "Contribute"
Su-Shee rindolf: ah, the pre-version.. please wait a little until I got more..
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carlin and on the male techie version replace Camelia with an Atlas moth 08:54
cognominal and for the litterary kind a link toward nabokov? 08:55
carlin in true timtowtdi fashion, the homepage is a portal which branches to a site layed out differently based on preference 08:56
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carlin also need a version for entomophobiacs 08:59
Su-Shee someone could do me the favor and start coding a little sleek cms in perl 6. ;) 09:01
carlin What, actually do work? But it's so much easier to just criticise on IRC
Su-Shee well if we're actually offering a central site for everyone to go to about everything perl 6 related, this is going to be very fast a rather large thing.. 09:03
rindolf Su-Shee: maybe code an off-line CMS.
Su-Shee: or convert Latemp to p6.
Su-Shee rindolf: I can manage with pure html and vi for a rather long time, so no hurry. but "a p6 cms" is something on the top 10 killer app list anyway. 09:05
rindolf Su-Shee: ah.
Su-Shee (blog engine, cms, wiki, forum, microblogging engine, web framework..)
rindolf Su-Shee: how do you maintain a navigation menu across pages?
Su-Shee rindolf: good question, next question. ;) 09:08
rindolf Su-Shee: in Latemp, it's a no-brainer.
Su-Shee: I never maintain a site as raw HTML. 09:09
I always use Latemp or something.
TT2 is also nice.
nothingmuch: I saw your comment on my &zip blog post.
Su-Shee rindolf: I even don't know latemp. 09:10
rindolf Su-Shee: then learn - web-cpan.berlios.de/latemp/
Su-Shee: though it has a steep learning curve. 09:12
Su-Shee: I love how all the borders on that page are perfectly aligned.
I used pt offsets.
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sjohnson （　｀ー´） 10:10
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carlin the silence is broken by a 10:15
umm
what is that?
jauaor me 10:16
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carlin ah no, a little ascii drawing by sjohnson, right before you joined 10:17
sjohnson i call it, "the fatface" 10:20
Su-Shee sleeping cat?
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rindolf Su-Shee: sleeping cat(1)? 10:27
carlin man cat?
rindolf cat man.
echo cat
cat echo
carlin cat: man: No such file or directory
sjohnson TimToady said it was a sleeping cat too 10:28
carlin and who are we to question his judgement?
Su-Shee tail missing, but it really looks like it. :)
rindolf carlin: you should try it in /usr/bin
sjohnson ~（　｀ー´）
there u go Su-Shee
carlin rindolf: nice, I'm sure vim could find a way to syntax highlight that output
rindolf $ file /usr/bin/man 10:29
/usr/bin/man: setgid ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, stripped
Su-Shee sjohnson: "can it purr?" ;)
rindolf Emacs has a hex editing mode.
rindolf is taking a break from refactoring some C code. 10:30
Why is it /bin/cat and /bin/tiger ? 10:31
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rindolf Why is it /bin/cat and not /bin/tiger ? 10:31
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sjohnson ~（　｀ー´） purr!! 10:32
thats as good as i am with ascii art
rindolf Hmmm... Frenglish is fun. 10:33
sjohnson: isn't it Unicode art?
sjohnson yeah
i call it Franglais too
rindolf sjohnson: that it's not ASCII.
sjohnson: Frenglish is in English ; Franglais is in French.
There's also Engrew.
Su-Shee ah. we have denglish. ;) 10:34
rindolf Hebrew with English paradigms.
Su-Shee: Denmark English?
Or deautch English?
Su-Shee de(utsch) english
rindolf There used to be something called Penglish (pinglish) - Palestinian English.
Su-Shee: ah.
huf dont all programmers speak in a $local_lang/English mix?
rindolf There's also Chinglish and Engrish. 10:35
They are really off.
Su-Shee huf: here, the newspapers are constantly complaining about the imported english words.. ;)
huf Su-Shee: oh yeah, that's also constant ;) 10:36
funny how they never complain about all the latin and german and french and .... words
Su-Shee huf: yeah. 200 years ago they complained about the massive invasion of french words :))
rindolf en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franglais
huf Su-Shee: well, what can you do with people who think a language is a static structure... 10:37
Su-Shee what's really nasty is the more I chat in english and read documentation in english, the more I start to mix german and english while actually speaking, because I don't know certain terms in german.
rindolf Su-Shee: ah.
huf Su-Shee: and that is the correct approach imho
rindolf Su-Shee: it happens to me with Hebrew too.
huf i *really* hate translating technical terms, which means that when we talk code, large parts of the sentence are in badly-pronounced english :)
rindolf Su-Shee: I think most Israelis I know make many grammatical/etc. Hebrew mistakes.
And some even Spelling. 10:38
Su-Shee turkish girls here have perfected the language mix. for the sake of the communication flow, they use arabic, turkish and german in a rapid flow of speech.
rindolf Though spelling modern Hebrew is difficult.
And such mistakes were found in archaelogical excavations.
Su-Shee huf: me too. and microelectronics for example I plainly don't know in german anymore.
rindolf Su-Shee: doesn't most of the Turkish vocab come from Arabic? 10:39
Su-Shee rindolf: no. totally different language family. but of course there's a large arabic corpus.
huf my belief is that computers should be in english. your data could (but shouldnt, if at all possible) be in some weird provincial language you happend to grow up with, but the UI/code/docs/jargon should always be english.
Su-Shee huf: I hear you. 10:40
rindolf Su-Shee: yes, that's what I meant.
Su-Shee: vocabulary.
Su-Shee: not the grammar/syntax/etc.
I hate localised error messages.
Su-Shee OHYES!
me too!
rindolf They make reading many Google posts difficult.
I mean stuff you find while STFWing. 10:41
huf of course, we dont find it odd that a computer requires a special language to interact with :)
Su-Shee rindolf: I'm the one who's called by non-techie friends in the evening and ask to give a dignose based on those messages. ;)
huf but how to force this on the public? 10:42
rindolf Su-Shee: heh.
M_o_C Another disadvantage is that when googling for a solution you'll only get posts containing the localised error message...
Su-Shee huf: luckily, many people adopt the english-based internet/tech slang.
huf Su-Shee: i just claim very loudly that i dont understand hungarian error messages, whenever the subject comes up, so they know i wont/cant help :)
Su-Shee M_o_C: and on top of all that a distribution-specific solution if it's linux. 10:43
huf: I look sad and say "oh, gee, I'm so sorry, but I don't have a mac (windows) - I really have no idea.."
huf Su-Shee: yeah, that's also a handy trick :)
"get out of fixing-everyone's-boxen free card" 10:44
Su-Shee huf: especially if those are people which usally don't even have the patience to even listen to what I'm telling them...
huf Su-Shee: yeah, because "they dont understand it" 10:45
as if it required fucking magic...
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huf i need a wizzard hat. 10:45
carlin nope, all you need is a flowchart
Su-Shee huf: I usally have a nice killer argument.. because I'm also no technician and I also didn't grow up with computers. ;)
carlin xkcd.org/627/
huf rindolf: is the spelling still hard in hebrew if you use the latin letters? 10:46
rindolf huf: well...
huf Su-Shee: i got my own computer at age 16. i'm heavily handicapped ;)
rindolf huf: most people don't follow the right transliteration.
Like they use k instead of "q".
huf: and some letters in Hebrew don't have a good transliteration.
M_o_C Meh, github http downloads are darn slow today...
huf rindolf: oh? 10:47
carlin github is always slow :(
rindolf huf: for example it's Al-Quran - not Al-Kuran.
huf: or Qur'an rather.
huf: Al-Qadim too.
huf: And it's not kwa.
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rindolf That was the original use of the word in the Phoenician alphabet. 10:48
A "q" sound.
huf hmm, sounds are so hard to talk about on irc...
rindolf huf: yes. 10:51
huf: think is - many Hebrew speakers say "k" instead of "q" in everyday speech.
huf so you have dialects
rindolf huf: but still, some Israeli arabs told me that learning to read and write Hebrew was much easier for them than learning Written Arabic. 10:52
Su-Shee
.oO(says the fellow with the nastily inflected language.. ;)
huf Su-Shee: eh?
rindolf huf: we have some dialects and variations.
Su-Shee huf: aren't you hungarian? ;)
huf yeah, but how do dialects enter into this :)
we have a few but they're very minor 10:53
nothing like german or english has
rindolf huf: but Hebrew doesn't have a diglossia yet.
huf: though sometimes I'm flabbergasted by the broken Hebrew that some people have. 10:54
huf Su-Shee: mostly our dialects center around slight differences in vowel pronuniciation plus how they dealt with the loss of a vowel sound (the 'e' in men)
rindolf: s/hebrew/$local_language/ and yeah, i agree ;)
Su-Shee huf: I liked hungarian. if you really just go with it, it's not even illogic. 10:55
rindolf huf: I'm not talking about slang. I like a lot of slang.
huf: but I'm talking about bad grammar.
huf hmm... is that because hebrew is so recently resurrected? 10:56
or is that just general ignorance
Su-Shee here, bad grammar is a question of "class" and education... 10:57
huf same
and it only comes out in complex sentences. everyone can perform simple ones correctly. 10:58
Su-Shee huf: here it's certain very specific constructions in simple sentences
huf: which you either get right or not and that's determined by your environment. 10:59
huf well, not really. no matter what stratum of society you grew up in, you're constantly exposed to the correct grammar. there's no excuse for not knowing that 11:00
Su-Shee huf: you can avoid pretty well to be exposed to good newspapers or news and if you end up only with really bad reality shows on tv... 11:01
rindolf I think that the misunderstanding of Latin by the vulgars has made the grammar of Romance languages.
huf rindolf: i dont thin the people of rome spoke latin back in the day 11:02
it was probably a vulgar dialect ;)
M_o_C Su-Shee: Even newspapers contain more errors than one thinks they should... 11:03
Su-Shee huf: sure they did - many of them badly of course. there's an entire corpus of people's latin.
M_o_C: at least they get some nasty grammar fuckups right :)
huf Su-Shee: wel yes, but even today latin and italian are mutually intelligible, so... latin can be said to be a literary form of italian :) 11:04
rindolf huf: yes, they evolved from Vulgar Latin.
pmurias ruoso: hi 11:05
Su-Shee well yes and no. as latin was the main written language in entire europe up until.. leibniz I think, there's the line of written latin and the change of people actually speaking and evolving with latin.
huf Su-Shee: but that latin is not the same as the latin romans spoke ;) not exactly, anyway
Su-Shee recommends the tv series "ROME" :) 11:06
quote: "mother, it was just an orgy.." :)
huf they live in esher? 11:07
rindolf Su-Shee: I heard it was awful.
Su-Shee rindolf: it was totally brilliant, I _loved_ it.
rindolf Su-Shee: ah.
Su-Shee rindolf: I really loved my ass off, they had the exact right amount of disrespect for "uuuh ahhh culture! old languages! latin!" ;) 11:09
laughed of course. ;)
rindolf: marcus antonius and cleopatra totally stoned... watch it. :) 11:14
rindolf Su-Shee: Cleopatra was a bitch, BTW.
She was one of the most Evil women in history , IMO.
Su-Shee rindolf: well what do you expect from an imperial ruler and politician? ;) 11:15
rindolf Su-Shee: I guess.
Though some rulers were noble.
Su-Shee: Cleopatra was also Macedonian in origin. 11:16
She just married the the king Ptolmey of Egypt. 11:17
Ptolmey (sp?)
Ptolemy 11:18
Modern Hebrew speakers can understand a large part of the Bible. 11:20
Not all the words there.
But most of them.
Even though the grammar there is very different. 11:21
for example you said "And he will go" for "he went"
Or "and he went" for "he will go"
And it's Verb ; Subject ; Object
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carlin rakudo: class Foo { method bar { my @a = 1..10; for @a { say pop @a } } }; say Foo.bar; 11:30
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«10␤9␤8␤7␤6␤5␤4␤3␤2␤1␤»
carlin from the CLI that works fine for me, if I paste that into a file and run it, it segfaults 11:31
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carlin can anyone confirm? / is it known? Seems strange 11:39
rakudo: class Foo { method bar { my @a = 1; undefine @a; } }; say Foo.bar; 11:47
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in type()␤in Main (/tmp/FY6ElFiRdQ:2)␤»
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rindolf This is a nice album - www.jamendo.com/en/album/51099 12:21
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rindolf Su-Shee: maybe you'd like www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUpRPMkLGc4 12:45
It's a skit about an Israeli Arab Teacher of English. 12:46
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JimmyZ rakudo: (4/2).say; (4 div 2).say; 14:37
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«2␤infix:<div> not yet implemented in Rakudo, sorry␤in sub infix:div (src/gen_setting.pm:1592)␤called from Main (/tmp/RfY2SosfcB:2)␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: (4/2).say; 14:38
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«2␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: ( 'f', 'foo', 'bar')>>.say; 14:39
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«f␤foo␤bar␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: ( 'f', 'foo', 'bar')>>.print; 14:40
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«ffoobar»
ruoso missing :ignoreaccent in Perl 5 14:43
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rindolf Hi all. 15:08
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Su-Shee I hate C. I hate Gtk. I want a native Perl widget set. 15:09
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rindolf Su-Shee: :-) 15:09
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rindolf Su-Shee: including a native Perl XLib? 15:09
Su-Shee Yes, please. 15:10
rindolf Su-Shee: coming right up.
Su-Shee: not sure how fast it will be.
Juerd While you're at it, make it web hybrid :)
rindolf I think gtk+ tends to be kinda verbose.
Su-Shee: have you tried Qt?
Su-Shee rindolf: I don't have any qt apps so I don't use it.. right now I'm only at "trying to compile a more recent gtk version" ;) 15:11
and while I'm at complaining: sometimes I really hate re-use as well... this is a list of dependencies plainly killing me...
rindolf Su-Shee: slackware sucks. 15:12
Su-Shee: in Mandriva installing gtk+ is a simple urpmi command away.
Su-Shee: or upgrading it.
Su-Shee rindolf: please don't annoy me now with assumptions about slackware. ;) 15:13
rindolf Su-Shee: and on Mandriva/Debian/etc. I dislike polluting the main parition wiith installed files.
Su-Shee: then why don't you use a package manager to install the deps?
Su-Shee I don't pollute anything, I'm installing another gtk version into somewhere else for some experimental stuff. 15:14
rindolf Su-Shee: I see.
Su-Shee: then why don't you build it against the glib/gobject/etc of /usr?
Su-Shee rindolf: because I need them differently and elsewhere for a specific build enviroment...
rindolf Su-Shee: ah.
Did you write scripts for that?
Su-Shee not yet, it's the first build up to actually see what I really _have_ to package and script later. 15:15
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araujo was told that mac osx sl now includes some AppleScript bindings for Cocoa 15:34
lambdabot araujo: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
smuj perl6: say "yep" if 'aaa' ~~ 'aa'..'ab'
p6eval pugs, rakudo 0d4fe0: ( no output )
..elf 28122: OUTPUT«No viable candidate for call to multimethod infix__126_126($,$,$) at (eval 130) line 3␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤»
smuj perl6: say "yep" if 'aa' le 'aaa' le 'ab' 15:35
p6eval elf 28122: OUTPUT«No viable candidate for call to multimethod infix_le($,$,$) at (eval 128) line 3␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤»
..pugs, rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«yep␤»
M_o_C Amazon really scares me. Yesterday I was browsing Wikipedia for category theory and functional languages, today I visited Amazon because I wanted to track an order and first thing it suggests me is Basic Category Theory for Computer Scientists. And I did not look for that kind of book previously on Amazon... 15:38
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pmichaud good morning, #perl6 15:42
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cognominal understands why TimToady has choosed biblic scriptures as name for Perl 6 specs. Each time I open the spec, I have a new reading of it 15:43
JimmyZ my @array = 1, 2, 3; my $a = @array; say $a.WHAT;
rakudo: my @array = 1, 2, 3; my $a = @array; say $a.WHAT;
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Array()␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: my @array = 1, 2, 3; ^@array.say; 15:44
p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«123␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: my @array' = 1, 2, 3; ^@array'.say; 15:45