»ö« | perl6.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, alpha:, pugs:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by lichtkind on 5 March 2010.
00:08 am0c joined
lue hello 00:10
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colomon o/ 00:11
lue o/
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japhb NQP bug or PEBCAK? $ parrot-nqp -e 'pir::die("foo"); CATCH { pir::exit(0); };' ===> hang 00:17
CokeGod exit throws an exception... 00:18
I think austin has worked around that in nqp by setting a variable IFF in the catch block, and then having a subsequent check to control throwing the new exception.
japhb CokeGod, Sure ... but is a CATCH block supposed to catch exceptions thrown *from within that CATCH block*? 00:19
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lichtkind night 00:24
TimToady o/
lue o/
lichtkind :)
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colomon rakudo: my @a = 1..3; sub foo($a, $b, $c) { say $a; say $c; }; foo(@a) 00:25
p6eval rakudo 5b81df: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 3␤current instr.: 'foo' pc 242 (EVAL_1:91)␤» 00:26
colomon rakudo: my @a = 1..3; sub foo($a, $b, $c) { say $a; say $c; }; foo(|@a)
p6eval rakudo 5b81df: OUTPUT«1␤3␤»
diakopter O/ 00:27
pugssvn r30017 | lwall++ | [external-aliasing.t] normal // regexen do not make a lexical scope, so no OUTER needed 00:34
lue afk 00:39
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colomon rakudo: say 4 min 3 02:04
p6eval rakudo 5b81df: OUTPUT«3␤»
colomon rakudo: say 0 .. (4 min 3)
p6eval rakudo 5b81df: OUTPUT«0123␤»
lue oh hello minimum. Try and work right :) 02:06
colomon I've got something bizarre going on here with my latest iteration of the series code, and of course the compile error message is completely freaking useless. 02:08
colomon now suspects the problem was .push ($j) instead of .push($j)... 02:09
lue contemplates an electronic autograph book, where (maybe famous) people (like lwall) come and sign it... with their public key :D 02:11
colomon it compiled! 02:20
lue *final fantasy victory cheer* 02:21
colomon and I didn't even break the arity-1 case! \o/
lue \o/ 02:22
TimToady oh yesses 02:23
lue cheeers from me would be more meaninful with a knowledge of arity-1 (to The Guide! er, Wikipedia)
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colomon just means that series like 1, 3, { $^a + 2 } ... * work fine. 02:24
I'm trying to move to th... whoops, I fixed a "minor thing" and broke it completely. 02:25
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lue The magic of 楽土 02:27
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lue hooray! (oh wait, that's just a nickname) :) 02:34
colomon > (1, 1, { $^a + $^b } ... *).batch(20).perl.say 02:37
(1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377, 610, 987, 1597, 2584, 4181, 6765)
lue fibonnaci win! 02:38
colomon lue: that there would be an arity-2 series that works! \o/
lue \o/
pugssvn r30018 | lwall++ | [STD] use Cursor to get ansi colors (hack) 02:39
r30018 | [STD] properly scope dynamic package names for {} packages
r30018 | [STD] package_def of ; packages now eats statementlist itself to stay inside proper scope
r30018 | [STD] correctly parse <> part of FOO::<$x> as part of variable name
r30018 | [STD] correctly follow symbolically indirected OUTER:: links
r30018 | [STD] find_top_pkg no longer cares if name ends in ::
r30018 | [STD] figure out whether initial components lead to package or lexical scope
r30018 | [STD] don't scan outer scopes on qualified names, duh
r30018 | [STD] handle FOO::<$x> form in check_variable
r30018 | [STD] don't check for @/% mistakes on qualified names
lue arity-n sounds like something you'd find said in the Death Star :)
or Star Wars in general
pugssvn r30019 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Nine variants on the Fibonacci series.
lue "Arity-3 away" "Sir! We got a report that Arity-7 has suffered critical damage!" 02:40
colomon arity-2 dee-2?
lue R2D2 = Rakudo Series 2 Death Star v2.0 :D 02:42
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lue Oh! [*]die(R) killed everyone, didn't it? If it missed, please speak up :) 02:53
I had to escape to the planet Metaop, but I can't see anyone else. 02:54
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lue Oh darn. Lessee... O good, they somehow missed Earth. Coming back... 03:00
colomon loliblogged: justrakudoit.wordpress.com/2010/03/...-progress/ 03:04
lue lolireadblog 03:05
xkcd.com/545/ ha ha ha 03:07
colomon > (1, 1, 1, { $^a + $^b + $^c } ... *).batch(10).perl.say 03:09
(1, 1, 1, 3, 5, 9, 17, 31, 57, 105)
I need to sleep....
lue arity-3 sent? 03:10
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lue night colomon (when you sleep that is) o/ 03:14
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lue .muse(writing a P6 interpreter for the TI-84 ought to be... difficult. Bloody difficult) 03:19
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lue .muse(I wish to create my own language just to get an ISO standard for it :P ) 03:22
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lue aah 03:26
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TimToady std: my $x; { { { MY::OUTER::OUTER::OUTER::<$x> }}} 03:30
p6eval std 30019: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 107m␤»
TimToady std: my $y; { { { MY::OUTER::OUTER::OUTER::<$x> }}}
p6eval std 30019: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable MY::OUTER::OUTER::OUTER::<$x> is not predeclared at /tmp/bI7yKk2LJl line 1:␤------> $y; { { { MY::OUTER::OUTER::OUTER::<$x>⏏ }}}␤ expecting any of:␤ POST␤ postfix␤ postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤FAILED 00:01 106m␤»
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lue xkcd.com/312/ say it isn't so! (just trying to block that draft :) ) 03:35
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lue afis (er, afk) 03:58
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JimmyZ rakudo: (1, 1, { $^a + $^b }).perl.say 04:08
p6eval rakudo 5b81df: OUTPUT«(1, 1, { ... })␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: (1, 1, { $^a + $^b } ... *).batch(20).perl.s
p6eval rakudo 5b81df: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: (1, 1, { $^a + $^b } ... *).batch(20).perl.say
p6eval rakudo 5b81df: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: ({ $^a + $^b }(1,1)).perl.say 04:09
p6eval rakudo 5b81df: OUTPUT«2␤»
japhb phenny, tell PerlJam I'll be AFK for a while now, but please msg me if you manage to get NQP-rx to understand quoted strings on the LHS of => , and I'll take a look when I get back. Thanks! 04:13
phenny japhb: I'll pass that on when PerlJam is around.
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dalek ok: b4c81d4 | moritz++ | src/grammars.pod:
[grammars] grammero
 05:31
ok: aed5553 | moritz++ | (2 files):
[operators] precedence
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mberends colomon++ for general series operator: "The trick was to keep an array storing the last N values generated in the series, where N is the number of arguments that the generator function takes". Brilliant! 07:03
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PerlJam colomon++ indeed 07:07
phenny PerlJam: 04:13Z <japhb> tell PerlJam I'll be AFK for a while now, but please msg me if you manage to get NQP-rx to understand quoted strings on the LHS of => , and I'll take a look when I get back. Thanks!
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PerlJam wonders if a bot is going to mention his recent push 07:09
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dalek p-rx: 2d51ec9 | duff++ | t/nqp/47-fatarrow.t:
Add some tests for the fat arrow
 07:13
p-rx: c441ffc | duff++ | src/NQP/ (2 files):
Make NQP understand single quoted strings on the LHS of =>
mberends PerlJam++ 07:14
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Su-Shee good morning 07:20
PerlJam good evening
mberends hi Su-Shee
PerlJam (I'm trying to go to sleep and failing) 07:21
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Su-Shee PerlJam: I've made a cron job during writing my thesis to plainly shut down the computer on time ;) 07:21
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PerlJam okay ... I'm going to make one more change (because the code I just pushed is bothering me) and then I'm going to sleep 07:30
and now it's time for sleep 07:39
good night all
mberends good night
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dalek p-rx: f34ed51 | duff++ | (3 files):
get rid of icky fatarrow2 rule and parse double quoted strings on the LHS of =>
 07:43
mberends more PerlJam++
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azawawi good morning 07:45
rakudo: say 1;
p6eval rakudo 5b81df: OUTPUT«1␤»
mberends morning azawawi, you're very careful today ;) 07:46
(some days, the above test fails, admittedly) 07:47
azawawi mberends: ah on win32
mberends: mail.perlide.org/pipermail/padre-de...01632.html 07:48
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mberends azawawi: I'll look into it, but on a Linux box, so making no promises... 07:49
azawawi mberends: actually the guy complaining is on a linux box... 07:50
mberends: but it happened to me on winxp box
mberends ok. first idea is to comment out the 'use v6;' line temporarily, because 'use' is undergoing a refactor
azawawi mberends: how do i make sure that my rakudo github repo is up2date? 07:51
mberends: i see
mberends: thx
mberends 'git status' and 'git pull' I guess. I use gitready.com for more ideas 07:52
azawawi mberends: ming32-make realclean and deleting parrot again just in case... 07:53
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azawawi tries to rebuild again 07:53
mberends good idea. Also delete the parrot_install tree
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azawawi mberends: ofcourse :) 07:54
mberends :)
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azawawi mberends: im thinking of automating the git pull/build process via Padre::Plugin::Perl6 to build the latest rakudo or a certain release by name 07:57
mberends excellent idea, because Padre will also be the recommended platform for beginners 07:58
azawawi mberends: my earlier attempt at providing ready-made binary rakudo win32 builds didnt succeed a lot on 64-bit systems...
mberends: ahmadzawawi.blogspot.com/2009/09/ne...dater.html
mberends azawawi: If you get that to work, I think we could add it to rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo 07:59
azawawi mberends: do you know of a pure perl implementation of git?
mberends azawawi: definitely not 08:00
azawawi mberends: or we could simplify a bit and let the user download the nightly builds...
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azawawi mberends: that way no need for him/her to have git 08:00
mberends azawawi: the only "safe" build is the monthly one 08:01
azawawi mberends: ofcourse
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azawawi mberends: so basically enumerate these: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/downloads 08:01
mberends azawawi: yes. we could extend the monthly build process to include making a Windows compatible archive. zip is easier, msi a bit harder. 08:02
azawawi mberends: not a good idea btw
mberends: compiling on 32-bit does not guarantee it will work on 64-bit 08:03
mberends that's a pity. We have appealed for a hosting provider to loan us a Windows dev system online for the other devs to use, but no offers so far :-( 08:05
azawawi mberends: so to build on win32 we need strawberry which has ming32-make/gcc and svn for the parrot
mberends: that's easy ask adamk and he'll get you an account at msopensource :)
mberends: adamk/alias
mberends azawawi: the other build system can use a free Microsoft C compiler and make utility, without Strawberry 08:06
azawawi mberends: the problem is these vm servers are shared and hence could be restarted/rebuild without advanced notice
mberends azawawi: even an occasionally rebooting machine would be useful, we could schedule smoke tests on it for example 08:07
azawawi mberends: if we can put parrot inside the 'released' monthly rakudo that would be great
mberends: that way we do not need svn on the user's machine 08:08
mberends azawawi: there may be some reason why that is not currently being done, but it may be ok to do it in the Windows case 08:09
azawawi: It's good to throw these ideas around now, well in time for the Rakudo * release. The other interested members will follow up from the irclog. 08:11
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azawawi mberends: cool on win32 instead of 'nice your-build-command', you can do 'start /b /low your-build-command' 08:16
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azawawi mberends: that way a build will be nice to the user's resources :) 08:17
Trashlord how's it going 08:18
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azawawi mberends: nice talking to you. I am taking notes... 08:20
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mberends azawawi: nice likewise. oh, he went :/ 08:22
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azawawi mberends: no worries i backlog :) 08:25
mberends :)
azawawi &
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mberends jonasbn++: Thanks for organizing an excellent Hackathon. You made a great contribution to Perl 6 :-) 09:57
jonasbn mberends: thanks 09:58
I really enjoyed having you guys around, why don't you all move to scandinavia like jnthn? 09:59
m6locks haha 10:00
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masak oh hai, #perl6 10:09
hejki oh hai, masak 10:11
masak hejki: how's things?
hejki busy @ work, really too busy 10:12
i feel like selling my soul every day
masak hugs hejki
hejki aww.. 10:13
hejki feels the love
masak hejki: you should make up a plan to spend more time with Perl 6. you know, to compensate.
that helps for me, at least.
hejki heh.. my freetime is also pretty 'booked up' :)
maybe when summer comes rolling in 10:14
masak the nice thing about time is that there's always some more of it coming right up :)
hejki heh ye :p
there just isn't enuff hours per day
masak yeah, but rumour is that we only ustilize about 60% of them... 10:15
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hejki i've heard something like that too, but well.. i like sleeping to a certain extents 10:16
s/s$$//;
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masak indeed. me too. 10:17
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masak some short-term plans for Tardis: github.com/masak/tardis/blob/master/docs/plans 10:29
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masak pdcawley blogged: www.bofh.org.uk/2010/03/10/falling-...a-language 10:42
'If Perl 6 were declared a failure tomorrow by the people who are actually working on it (as opposed to the people who aren’t working on it, but bitch about it anyway – see some of chromatic’s more intemperate posts about those people), then it will still have had value for the way it’s inspired members of the Perl 5 community to nick the good bits and make them happen in Perl 5.'
that's probably an accurate summary of how many vocal Perl5ists feel about Perl 6. 10:43
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hejki i'm perl5ist, but i still think perl6 would be good 10:46
mathw I think he's got a very good point
hejki also laziness can't be nicked :>
mathw Even if Perl 6 is a failure, Perl 5 has vastly improved under its loominess 10:47
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mathw However, Perl 6 succeeding would, I am sure, exceed even the awesome new Perl 5 in awesomeness 10:47
masak pervasive all-the-way-down grammars can't be nicked either.
mathw Due to these things you are mentioning
Due to macros 10:48
masak mmm, macros.
mathw Due to static typing
hejki heh
mathw (if you want it)
hejki due to HYPERTITS! :>
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masak macros with cheese and a bit of thyme. 10:48
mathw I like my macros with garlic
m6locks :3
masak oooh
hejki perl5 would've been what perl6 should be if it were written on later time :) 10:49
at least that's how i see it
masak hejki: I wrote that in a tweet the other day: twitter.com/carlmasak/status/10222201257
hm. on second thought, those mean different things :) 10:50
hejki heh.. twitter--
mathw I don't think we can blame twitter for masak's incoherence 10:51
That probably has something more to do with Copenhagen
masak :)
Incopenhagenerence.
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m6locks any wrap up on copenhagen accomplishments somewhere? 10:52
masak logiclab.org/wordpress/2010/03/09/c...urce-days/ 10:53
m6locks nice, thx
masak github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/maste...oposal.pod
baest and should be visible in spectest as well 10:55
masak oh, definitely.
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masak but that's harder to reify as a URL :) 10:55
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baest masak: well, it should be visible when rakudo.org/status gets updated 10:56
masak aye.
I'm actually not sure what prevents someone non-pmichaud-y from doing that, apart from the force of tradition. 10:57
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pmichaud2 good morning, #perl6 11:36
mathw lolitspmichaud...TWO! 11:37
pmichaud2 quiet here this morning? I guess everyone is in hackathon-recovery-mode? 11:44
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colomon o/ 11:45
masak pmichaud2: yes, a bit like that. 11:52
colomon pmichaud2: When you get a chance, I'd love to code review the !op metaop with you. I'm pretty sure I can churn out a few more of the things based on its approach, but I don't want to be cloning dodgy code. 11:54
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pmichaud2 colomon: okay, I'll be glad to do that. At the moment my connectivity is extremely limited, though. 11:57
the wifi connection here has draconian security in place; traffic appears to be strictly limited to http connections 11:58
colomon thanks.
ack, I hate that.
(that's ack the random sound, not ack the program, which I love.) 11:59
pmichaud2 they even block access to sites that describe how to do http tunneling. :-\
colomon may disappear for a few minutes here (sounds like someone in the nursery is waking up), but I'll still be "listening". 12:01
pmichaud2 I probably won't be able to review much for another couple of hours. 12:03
(and perhaps not even then -- depends on what is going on around here) 12:05
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freshfish 大家好啊 12:18
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masak freshfish: come back! I want to greet you in hanzi. :) 12:37
std: sub foo(%h{ $left }) {} 12:47
p6eval std 30019: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 108m␤» 12:48
masak rakudo: sub foo(%h{ $left }) {}
p6eval rakudo 5b81df: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "sub foo(%h"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
masak NYI?
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cognominal TimToady, S02-bits.pod:1181: Slicel Arguments in a semicolon list (or equiv, like Z) 12:58
that should be Slice?
colomon don't think so. 13:00
cognominal ok
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takadonet morning all 13:08
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jnthn oh hai, #perl6 13:12
takadonet jnthn: morning 13:14
mathw oh hai jnthn 13:15
colomon \o
jnthn masak: what you trying to do?
Unpack?
masak jnthn: yes.
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jnthn Syntax is (%h (:$left)) 13:15
lisppaste3 colomon pasted "!op issues (for pmichaud)" at paste.lisp.org/display/96205
masak jnthn: ah. 13:16
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jnthn And should work fine ;-) 13:16
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jnthn Though you'll surely find some way to break it. :-P 13:17
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masak works fine. jnthn++ 13:17
jnthn During my train journey I've been hacking :-)
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jnthn I've got a much-of-the-way-there patch for lexical import working. 13:18
masak \o/ 13:19
rakudo: multi x(%h($a, $b)) {}; multi x(%h($a, $b)) {}; x({:a, :b})
p6eval rakudo 5b81df: OUTPUT«Ambiguous dispatch to multi 'x'. Ambiguous candidates had signatures:␤:(%h)␤:(%h)␤␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
masak jnthn: it seems to me nested sigs don't get printed...
jnthn masak: Ah 13:21
Signature.perl probably needs a little tweak. 13:22
masak submits rakudobug
colomon btw, masak, don't know if you saw this one yet or not: 13:31
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colomon rakudo: .say for "hello"; 13:31
p6eval rakudo 5b81df: OUTPUT«h␤e␤l␤l␤o␤»
masak saw it, but forgot to get back to it. 13:32
masak submits rakudobug
I'd be very interested in how that occurs.
colomon masak++
yeah, me too.
masak are Str objects iterable now?
colomon and I've got the source code now...
geez, I hope not!
and 13:33
masak I mean accidentally. :)
colomon rakudo: for "hello" { .say }
p6eval rakudo 5b81df: OUTPUT«hello␤»
masak o.O
curiouser and curiouser.
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PerlJam good morning. 13:50
takadonet morning 13:51
dalek kudo: a705b41 | jonathan++ | (6 files):
Translate cheating use into NQP and split out need and import. Stubs for various things we'll need (tags, lexical import).
 13:59
kudo: 5d6aba2 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Module/VersionDetectionActions.pm:
Add some comment to say what a file is for.
kudo: a11211c | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
Switch symbol importation to lexical by default; actually load modules during the compile. Probably has quirks, but a step towards what we want.
kudo: 8d76887 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.pm:
Actually parse a module_name, rather than cheating and parsing a longname, in use.
masak jnthn: did you see github.com/masak/tardis/blob/master/docs/plans ? specifically, what do you think about the instruction code? 14:07
jnthn masak: no, been away for meetings all morning 14:08
masak: will glance at it shortly
Gotta do a couple of other bits here first. :-)
colomon masak: Does implementing Tardis involve completely reimplementing p6? 14:12
masak colomon: more or less. 14:13
colomon masak++
14:13 prism is now known as daemon
masak not sure I deserve karma for that... :P 14:13
jnthn: no sweat. 14:15
rakudo: sub foo(%h($left)) {}; foo({ no => "left key" })
p6eval rakudo 5b81df: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 0 but expected 1␤current instr.: 'foo' pc 213 (EVAL_1:82)␤»
masak I guess that's a correct error message... wonder if it can be made awesomer, though... 14:16
does anyone have any suggestions?
PerlJam isn't even sure what %h($left) is supposed to mean these days 14:19
masak PerlJam: 'a hash %h with a key named "left" and the value $left'
PerlJam Then an "awesomer" message would be "Hash %h has no key named 'left'" perhaps 14:21
masak I really like that.
it works for single dispatch.
masak submits LTA rakudobug 14:22
PerlJam where you answering Mark Reed's query on p6l?
masak I was.
PerlJam ah. I just read it :)
masak :)
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[particle] Sub 'foo' expects a Hash with a required a key named 'left'. 14:24
jnthn ugh, that will be *hard* to do. 14:25
masak jnthn: but it will be *so* worth it. 14:26
PerlJam jnthn: that's your job! :)
jnthn Can quite easily name the parameter that has being bound into a sub-signature though.
[particle] then that must be the correct error message :)
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jnthn Which is maybe semi-awesome-ish. :-) 14:27
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[particle] SAI is still LTA :) 14:27
PerlJam CokeGod: have you attained some enlightenment of which I have not been aware? :)
jnthn Prague wasn't built in a day. 14:28
brb, errands
masak CokeGod: does a Coke God accept offerings in the form of sugar and caffeine?
[particle] that's not what they say in rome....
CokeGod Splenda and caffeine. 14:29
The explanation of this nick is somewhere on the internet. It's really not worth the search. 14:30
CokeGod enjoys his current offering which is hot and infused with faux hazelnut aroma. 14:35
masak so, Set and Bag, KeyHash/KeySet/KeyBag amd PairSet. does anyone have any good use cases which might shake out what default operators and methods we want for those? 14:37
hm. are .pickpairs and .grabpairs strictly necessary? couldn't one just do .pick and .grab (respectively) after an appropriate coercion? 14:42
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jnthn "Rakudos to the team!" :-D 14:45
masak :)
jnthn: was that a quote from somewhere?
jnthn masak: p6l
PerlJam masak: or just have $bag.pick return a pair and if you want the key, you say $bag.pick.key
masak PerlJam: hm. 14:46
PerlJam masak: and the currently specced semantics could be gotten from $bag.pick(*).>>key or some such
jnthn -> exploring the systembolaget
masak again apologizes profusely for confusing p6l by actually running stuff :P 14:47
jnthn lol!!
bbiab
masak jnthn: that's sort of a double definite you did there. '-et' translates as 'the'...
jnthn masak: oops 14:48
:-)
masak np, just wierdish. there are no real rules in context switching, I guess...
jnthn (I kinda knew that, but the double somehow falls out naturally when interpolating it into an English sentence. Maybe it'll feel wierder to me some day. :-)) 14:49
mathw reads the latest on the pattern matching thread and is astonished and overjoyed
I didn't realise signature unpacking could do that!
else I would've written about it in my reply, obviously
mathw toasts... everyone
PerlJam mathw: jnthn++
jnthn ouch...it burns!
oh, other toast.
[particle] prost!
masak nazdarovie!
jnthn OK, really going...before it closes. :-) 14:50
masak extrapolates that jnthn will like Systembolaget
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PerlJam zdar! 14:50
(The one small bit of czech I learned from Sokol :) 14:51
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mathw cheers! 14:52
masak sanon!
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masak Perl 6 Advent page hits still average 120 +- 40 per day. the long tail seems to hold stable. 15:10
mathw yay 15:11
I think we've got presence in Google and links from various places
frettled masak: that's nice.
masak Perl 6: not existing a little less every day. 15:12
frettled frettleblog has 5-10, and that's pretty good, considering the rather narrow audience.
mberends masak: is it true that tardis is embarking on implementing Perl 6 in Perl 6? Was GGE not glacial enough? ;-)
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masak mberends: the glaciality of GGE has in fact been greatly exaggerated... mostly by me. :P 15:12
mberends phew :) 15:13
mathw masak: I recognise sheer geeky cool in the idea... but what's the practical reason?
masak mberends: but yeah, Yapsi will be slow.
PerlJam "yapsi"? heh
masak mathw: I'm mostly toying around, but the three concrete products will be a time-travelling debugger, a code analysis tool, and a code coverage tool. 15:14
mathw aaah
masak mathw: all three require a compiler frontend, and the debugger and the coverage tool require a compiler backend.
PerlJam masak: you'll have to hang out with Damian quite a bit more to get that time-travel thing down ;) 15:15
masak PerlJam: I wouldn't mind that :)
PerlJam: but you do know there's a plan already, don't you? :)
plus some very simple already-working code.
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PerlJam masak: I'm only peripherally aware of the plan. 15:15
masak the plan is to have fun until we run out of memory. :P 15:16
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mathw I used to do that in Epigram 15:16
the problem with that is that running out of memory took about half an hour and two screenfuls of code
masak that sounds like a problem Tardis might run into as well. 15:17
PerlJam I was just looking at Python 3's grammar and find it incredibly icky to read. Now I know I'm too used to Perl 6 regex :) 15:19
masak STD.pm actually gives Perl 6 grammar an extremely pure feel. 15:20
it's as if its author wanted to atone for some previous heinous parsing sins... :P 15:21
PerlJam What really grates on my mind are constructions like this: [tfpdef] (',' tfpdef ['=' test])*
where the stuff in [] is meant to be optional
masak that's some form of EBNF, is it not? 15:22
PerlJam yes
[particle] everything is some form of ebnf, it seems
nobody bothered to standardize the 'e' 15:23
PerlJam indeed
[particle] it's as bad as makefile syntax
masak embrace-and-extended BNF :)
[particle] i got stopped dead in my tracks writing an ebnf front end for pge years ago 15:24
PerlJam maybe someone could make a universal translator from EBNF to Perl 6
[particle] which e?
PerlJam all of them
jnthn back
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masak jnthn: how was Systemet? 15:24
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jnthn masak: Win. 15:25
masak thought so
jnthn masak: Nice range. :-)
And prices akshually not as terrifying as first expected.
masak jnthn: and late-bindably extendable :)
jnthn Yes. :-)
mathw Is jnthn now located in his new town? 15:26
jnthn He is. 15:27
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mathw \o/ 15:28
jnthn Also on my walk spotted a curry house. :-) 15:29
masak excellent. 15:30
masak now hopefully glances first at jnthn and then at github.com/masak/tardis/blob/master/docs/plans 15:32
jnthn :-) 15:35
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jnthn Any particular bit you want me to look at, or all of it? 15:35
masak the latter, more insane parts. 15:36
specifically, obvious reasons the SIC idea won't fly.
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jnthn "Figure out a way to encode which AST nodes correspond to which substrings of a program. 15:40
"
That is probably do-able by attaching info from the parse node, or the parse node itself, to the AST. 15:41
masak nod. 15:42
the trick is to have info flow all the way through from program via AST to SIC.
jnthn The instruction code looks...odd.
masak :)
I'm on thin ice there.
jnthn It looks like post-optimized output. :-) 15:43
Or some such.
It feels awkward that you need to know if you have a container or not.
It's possible a value can be bound straight into the lexpad
masak oh right.
I obviously need to do some more thinking on this. 15:44
jnthn Also I'd kinda expect calls to multi-dispatch routines.
masak yes.
jnthn for infix:<=> and postfix:<++>
But of coruse that needs multi dispatch and... :-)
You gotta start somewhere I guess.
masak :)
yes.
jnthn I guess I can only sum up with, implemetning a Perl 6 compiler is Really Really Hard. :-)
masak gotcha. 15:45
jnthn (Which isn't a reason not to do it. :-))
mberends masak: don't spend too long on this, you could just dispatch lue++ to the future in his quantum-mobile to get the resulting source code. He's up for a bit of time travel. As long as he doesn't forget it all on the way back to here and now... 15:47
masak mberends: I willen haben shallum asken him. 15:48
mberends masak: talk about all over the tenses ;) 15:49
masak mberends: "If you've done six impossible things this morning, why not round it off with breakfast at Milliways—the Restaurant at the End of the Universe!" 15:51
mberends once you start doing impossible things, the sky isn't the limit. hmm, maybe time travel is harder for programmers than for programs (and debuggers) 15:52
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mberends de-commutes 15:59
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WNz Hey all 16:52
What's the best tutorial to follow for a newcomer to perl and going straight to perl6?
takadonet hey WNz 16:53
WNz Hey
Also anyone here on gentoo?
takadonet <-- ubuntu sorry
WNz Heh
I'm wondering what all i need to emerge
emerging rakudo seems to be all i need, although i'm not sure 16:54
arnsholt WNz: If you want the latest-greatest you'll git and svn
I think all the other build deps should be there already on Gentoo
WNz Doesn't portage stay pretty up-to-date? 16:55
arnsholt I'm not on Gentoo anymore, but used to
takadonet Wnz: perl6advent.wordpress.com/2009/12/0...ng-rakudo/
Advent calendar is a great place for an overview of Rakudo 16:56
Su-Shee it is indeed and one should consider a 40 day pre-easter calendar :)
arnsholt There was talk of an article series in connection with Rakudo * in CPH 16:58
japhb Would one of the nqp-rx hackers mind updating parrot's snapshot, please? I'm anxious to start using the fine hackage from the last few hours in Plumage. :-)
pmichaud, jnthn, Tene, PerlJam, ^
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WNz I'm looking for more of a structured howto 17:00
For learning
Not random bits
m6locks learning what? 17:02
oh the language 17:03
i found moritz_'s tutorial handy perlgeek.de/en/article/5-to-6
before that, i read some introductory text in perl5 17:04
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WNz ok so it's not working for me 17:10
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WNz I'm trying to run commands in the terminal using `perl6` 17:10
i tried something as simple as `my $num = 6;` and `say "$num";`
with an error
colomon rakudo: my $num = 6; say "$num"; 17:11
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«6␤»
m6locks did you write them on the same line?
like that
WNz no
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m6locks if you hit enter between the commands, youäll get an error because it needs to be inputted on a single line if you're using repl 17:12
WNz ah i see
what's the crunchbang for using perl6?
m6locks what would you like it to be?-) 17:13
WNz i'm assuming #!/usr/bin/perl6? 17:14
yep
cool
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colomon hey, we're over 27,000 passing tests now! 17:23
jnthn :-D 17:24
Nice work everyone!
WNz is multi sub new?
jnthn WNz: Yes; Perl 5 doesn't have those. 17:25
WNz interesting
jnthn They're very useful and quite important in Perl 6 though. :-)
WNz quite cool
m6locks what's the test count gonna be when rakudo * is released
arnsholt Who knows. More than today =) 17:26
m6locks ;)
jnthn m6locks: It's not a great indicator of progress in some senses, since different features have widely varying numbers of tests.
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m6locks yes, i noticed that with the trig. functions 17:27
takadonet well that's colomon fault for that 17:28
colomon sorry!
;)
BTW, I'm hoping for about 33,000 passing tests for Rakudo *. (And not just by generating 6,000 new trig tests. :) 17:29
jnthn I think that's achievable with continued graft. :-)
WNz what's the difference between sub and method? 17:30
colomon It's just 1,000 tests a week, and we actually got 2,000 back this week. (hackathon++) 17:31
jnthn WNz: A method expects to be able to install itself in some class/role/grammar, and also handles taking the invocant for you, so you needn't list it explicitly in the argument list.
WNz ok 17:32
I figured it was just the class context
PerlJam WNz: but you didn't ask about submethods :) 17:34
WNz ha haven't heard of them yet
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WNz yay! finally chained comparrisons 17:41
I've been waiting to finally be able to do that in a lang
PerlJam WNz: you can do it in python 17:42
WNz really?
Didn't know that
PerlJam WNz: docs.python.org/reference/expressions.html#notin 17:43
WNz well that's good to know
is that new in python?
i haven't used it in a while 17:44
PerlJam WNz: no, it's been in python quite some time.
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PerlJam WNz: but that's not even the neatest thing in Perl 6 ;) 17:45
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WNz well yeah 17:45
how do you make executables in perl?
PerlJam WNz: Here's one that just tickles me to this day: if [<] @stuff { say "the stuff is ordered least to greatest" }
WNz wow that's cool 17:46
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colomon though it isn't actually implemented in current Rakudo. 17:51
arnsholt Are phasers supposed to work in master? 17:52
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jnthn arnsholt: Not entirely sure. Maybe depends on the phaser. 17:59
I'm sure I've seen some stuff in the actions that pertains to those.
WNz so how do you make an executable in perl6? 18:01
arnsholt jnthn: BEGIN phaser in this case. Parses, but isn't executed
rakudo: say "HELO"; BEGIN { say "EHLO"; }
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«HELO␤»
arnsholt Was Nil the class that changed to Mu recently? 18:03
jnthn Ah
No, Object
arnsholt Okies
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jnthn WNz: At the moment there's not a particularly easy way. 18:03
You can make a "fakeexecutable" that packages bytecode and a loader.
Well, in theory at least :-) 18:04
WNz In what way is it fake?
jnthn It's not an actual compiling of Perl 6 to machine code, it just contains VM bytecode and something to load the vm and run it.
WNz Is the code visible? 18:05
I'm making a password storage db with encryption via rsa key
but i don't want the algorithm viewable 18:06
For obvious reasons
PerlJam security through obscurity is no security at all
jnthn RSA is a fairly well known algorithm. :-) But no, the source at present doesn't go into the executable.
WNz Meaning? 18:07
jnthn You can still reverse engineer it from the bytecode, just as you could from native machien code.
You're just making life a little harder rather than preventing anything. :-) 18:08
WNz So then how should I go about it?
arnsholt alpha: my Num $x = 1.1;
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: ( no output )
arnsholt alpha: my Num $x = 1.1; say $x
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«1.1␤»
arnsholt rakudo: my Num $x = 1.1; say $x
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«Type check failed for assignment␤current instr.: '&die' pc 16804 (src/builtins/Junction.pir:373)␤»
arnsholt Bug, or something I've missed?
jnthn Well, I'm not a cryptologist, but as far as I understand these things, using RSA is fine (in fact, it's best to use a well-known algorithm) and the more important issue is key management. 18:09
arnsholt: Something you missed.
rakudo: say 1.1.WHAT
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«Rat()␤»
arnsholt Ooooh, right
WNz Well seeing as i'm not planning on releasing the app, wouldn't I be fine by just using obscurity?
arnsholt Is there a way to force creation of a Num, rather than a Rat?
WNz It's more of a personal thing 18:11
A secure way of storing my passwords
I made the app in ruby and it seemed to work pretty well
you need the private key and the password to unlock the key 18:12
and the app
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WNz is that not enough for my purposes? 18:12
and the sqlite db
PerlJam arnsholt: (1/2).Num :)
arnsholt True dat 18:13
I went with 1.1e1 =)
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arnsholt rakudo: my Callable $x; say $x.isa(Callable); # known issue? 18:15
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«Method 'isa' not found for invocant of class 'RoleHOW'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Any;isa' pc 9666 (src/gen/RoleToClassApplier.pir:540)␤»
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PerlJam rakudo: (1/2).WHAT.say 18:21
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«Rat()␤»
PerlJam rakudo: (1.0/2).WHAT.say
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«Rat()␤»
colomon rakudo: (1.0).WHAT.say
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«Rat()␤» 18:22
PerlJam That should be Num, shouldn't it?
colomon npe
nope
PerlJam how do I get a Num literal? 18:23
Or can I/
?
colomon rakudo: say (1.0e0).WHAT
arnsholt Scientific notation
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
PerlJam arnsholt: yes, of course. But is that the only way?
arnsholt No idea. TMTOWTDI usually applies =) 18:24
colomon normally I prefer
arnsholt rakudo: say (1/2).Num.WHAT
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
colomon rakudo: say (1.0.Num).WHAT
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
colomon which is a little wordier but more to the point.
PerlJam And is this a fossil: One consequence of all this is that you may no longer write a Num as C<42.> with just a trailing dot. You must instead say either C<42> or C<42.0>. 18:25
S02:400
colomon PerlJam: true
arnsholt rakudo: my Array og Int $foo 18:27
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«In "my" declaration, typename Array must be predeclared (or marked as declarative with :: prefix) at line 11, near " og Int $f"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
PerlJam og! 18:28
:)
arnsholt rakudo: my Array of Int $foo
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'postcircumfix:<[ ]>'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
arnsholt There. What happen?
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PerlJam rakudo thinks it's a parametric type 18:31
arnsholt my Int @array; say "alive"; 18:32
rakudo: my Int @array; say "alive";
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«alive␤»
arnsholt Isn't that the same as "my Array of Int $x"?
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rindolf Hi all. 18:36
colomon o/
PerlJam hello rindolf
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PerlJam What kind of introspection is available on PAST::Val nodes? 19:43
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pmichaud good afternoon, #perl6 19:51
mberends hi pmichaud 19:52
PerlJam hello pm. how goes?
pmichaud it's been an interesting week.
colomon o/
19:52 jonasbn joined
bkeeler_ Mornin, sir 19:52
pmichaud ("interesting" in the chinese proverb sense, alas)
I've finally been able to break out of the wifi jail here, though, so I can at least get back to hacking sorts of things. 19:54
PerlJam rakudo: my @a = "greeble"; .say for @a;
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«greeble␤»
PerlJam rakudo: .say for "greeble"
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«g␤r␤e␤e␤b␤l␤e␤»
PerlJam rakudo: .say for "greeble",;
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«greeble␤»
bkeeler_ wow
pmichaud Parrot thinks that strings iterate as individual characters.
probably need to evaluate the for argument in list context. 19:55
[particle] that's what makes parrot better than c :)
PerlJam pmichaud: I have no idea how to do that in Actions.pm 19:57
pmichaud see the way that the statement_control:sym<for> does it.
PerlJam Hmm 19:58
pmichaud ultimately statement_control:sym<for> will translate into a call to map^H^H^H.map()
er, .map()
colomon that's "ultimately" as in "when we get around to programming it that way", not "if you trace it far enough down in the code", right? 19:59
pmichaud thus for XYZ { ABC }; is translated into something like list(XYZ).map({ ABC })
"when we get around to programming it that way"
we can't really do it until we have sink context in place
TimToady phone 20:00
pmichaud I'll be delayed.
(approx 5-10 mins)
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jnthn is about for a bit. 20:48
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sjohnson TimToady: long time no chat. may i ask a p5 question? i was wondering if Perl 5 is high-level enough in the way that you can store BIG numbers, like beyond 32-bit etc as integers, and do math on them etc 21:12
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buchi_ how to write binary values to a file using perl? 21:13
sjohnson open the file as a binary file 21:14
print HANDLER $bindata;
M_o_C sjohnson: I don't know if this also covers what you consider "storing", but: perldoc.perl.org/bigint.html Though last time I tried it was considered inappropriate to ask Perl 5 Questions in #perl6. 21:15
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masak has watched a movie, eaten dinner, and is generally happy with life 21:17
pugssvn r30020 | duff++ | [t/spec] Add a couple of tests for the one-arg statement modifier for loop 21:18
bkeeler_ Howdy masak 21:19
PerlJam buchi_: This channel is about Perl 6 and it sounds like you're asking a Perl 5 question. Try #perl or #perlhelp
sjohnson: perldoc bigint 21:20
buchi_ Thank you!!
PerlJam sjohnson: you can try #perl or #perlhelp too :)
21:20 iblechbot joined
sjohnson perl6 guys aren't too nice, so i ask a perl 5 question on my once-a-month quota here. plus i get the answers straight from the camel's mouth! 21:21
errl.. perl5 guys i mean
PerlJam sjohnson: Are you saying I'm not nice?
PerlJam is a Perl 5 guy
masak bkeeler_: hi there!
PerlJam and a Perl 6 guy
and a Ruby guy
bkeeler_ don't camels tend to spit?
21:21 ruoso left
PerlJam and rarely a python guy 21:21
sjohnson i meant #perl 21:22
guys
bkeeler_ or is that just llamas?
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sjohnson PerlJam: nope you're a pretty nice guy 21:23
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mberends sjohnson: have you tried any of search.cpan.org/search?query=BigInt...ode=module ? 21:24
sjohnson no.. but i am now. i wasn't sure if it was natively supported, or you needed to import a pragma 21:26
it all started when my brother said "ya can't do it in perl 5" and i was skeptical of that claim
mberends it's not natively supported
21:26 masak left
PerlJam sjohnson: you can do anything in Perl 5 ... it's all a question of how hard it is to do. 21:26
sjohnson mberends: 5.10.0 has it as a core pragma though 21:27
maybe even earlier stuff 21:28
m6locks binmode INF; binmode OUTF; 21:29
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mberends sjohnson: which pragma do you mean? 21:30
sjohnson use bigint;
21:31 M_o_C left
mberends sjohnson: thanks, I did not know that, and you have answered your own question. 21:31
sjohnson well... it was the collective wisdom of #perl6 to the rescue once again 21:33
m6locks :3
21:34 kst left
mberends 'perldoc bigint' says the pragma is a thin wrapper for Math::BigInt, so you still need to ensure that is installed 21:34
21:34 lichtkind joined, kst joined
sjohnson good tip 21:35
21:36 masak joined, justatheory left
mberends \o masak 21:36
masak mberends: o/
CokeGod (bigint) or just use a perl > 5.8, neh?
masak <jnthn> It feels awkward that you need to know if you have a container or not.
CokeGod er, >= 21:37
masak jnthn: by that logic, I'd be better off just having something like 'assign "$a", 42'...
(as the SICification of '$a = 42') 21:38
and then something like 'bind "$a", "$b"' for '$a := $b'.
hm, that sounds simple enough to actually work. 21:39
lichtkind oh coke became god 21:40
CokeGod I blame freenode.
masak rakudo: sub infix:<=>($a is rw, $b) { warn "This operator has been overridden by the FBI for your safety" }; my $a = 42; say $a 21:42
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«This operator has been overridden by the FBI for your safety␤This operator has been overridden by the FBI for your safety␤Any()␤»
masak hm. locally, I got only one warning, not two.
21:43 buchi_ left
masak maybe the Safe prelude does some assignment. 21:43
hm... :>
PerlJam rakudo: sub infix:<=>($a is rw, $b) { warn "BLAH" } say "hi"
21:43 am0c joined
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "sub infix:"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤» 21:43
masak rakudo: sub infix:<=>($a is rw, $b) {}; say run('ls')
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«build␤Configure.pl␤CREDITS␤docs␤dynext␤lib␤LICENSE␤Makefile␤parrot␤parrot_install␤perl6_group.c␤perl6_group.h␤perl6_group.o␤perl6.pir␤README␤src␤t␤Test.pm␤tools␤0␤»
masak figgered out a way to disable Safe.pm
may I advise all potential trolls on the channel to exercise a measure of restraint until we fix that? :) 21:44
jnthn lol
m6locks haha 21:45
21:46 Su-Shee left
Tene masak: Aw, but I don't *like* restraint! 21:47
masak Tene: it was just a suggestion. as was pointed out a few days ago, 'nice' and 'good' don't always coincide. 21:48
Tene Setting up a bot to run inside an selinux sandbox has been on my "interesting afternoon activities" list for months. 21:49
Then we wouldn't need to use Safe.pm to restrict it, and we could let scripts play with the fs.
masak ++Tene 21:51
CokeGod ->
Tene → 21:52
masak ⽮
Tene .u ⽮
phenny U+2F6E KANGXI RADICAL ARROW (⽮)
masak :)
pmichaud -=»>> 21:53
pmichaud can't wait to define that operator :-)
masak std: -=»>>
p6eval std 30020: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix = instead at /tmp/woLgQzWpBB line 1:␤------> -⏏=»>>␤ expecting any of:␤ prefix or meta-prefix␤ prefix_postfix_meta_operator␤ term␤FAILED 00:01 107m␤»
jnthn pmichaud: Heh, amusingly enough I just decided to try and parse hypers :-)
21:54 ShaneC left
mberends what would a harpoon operator do? 21:54
masak mberends: finally catch that great white whale. 21:55
21:55 frettled sets mode: +oo masak mberends
frettled look, you caught a white cinnamon bun instead 21:55
masak mmm.
jnthn pmichaud: Didn't exactly succeed though.
mberends ah, there must be frettles about :)
jnthn mmm...kamelbullar 21:56
frettled ←↓↑→
jnthn: camel testicles?
jnthn ...oops. :-)
.oO( don't make puns in languages you don't know )
frettled they're probably tasty testies
21:57 justatheory joined
masak jnthn: for what it's worth, I wouldn't have made that association. YMMV, I guess. :) 21:58
Tene ↑↑↓↓←→←→
frettled jnthn: do you feel your leg stretching yet?
Tene: ←-→ 21:59
diakopter masak: run() shouldn't be defined.. 22:00
Tene ↔
»≫⋙
masak diakopter: your utterance is a case where I feel that 'should' should have a context bound to it. :)
diakopter I mean 22:01
oh, interesting
you killed assignment?
masak :D
I found a security hole. 22:02
frettled oooh 22:03
diakopter that's weird; it does it in PIR I thought
frettled masak: that's cool, is it exploitable?
PerlJam rakudo: run('ls');
masak frettled: did you see where I did `ls` above?
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«build␤Configure.pl␤CREDITS␤docs␤dynext␤lib␤LICENSE␤Makefile␤parrot␤parrot_install␤perl6_group.c␤perl6_group.h␤perl6_group.o␤perl6.pir␤README␤src␤t␤Test.pm␤tools␤»
frettled masak: argh, sorry, lost the pun. Rewind. «is it even remotely exploitable?»
masak :)
oh hm.
diakopter :/ 22:04
masak PerlJam: seems Safe.pm isn't actually very safe.
frettled masak: ahaha
PerlJam alpha: run('ls')
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«operation not permitted in safe mode␤in Main (file /tmp/3BGLnFQ04Z, line 1)␤»
diakopter p6eval doesn't use Safe.pm 22:05
frettled is someone reinventing PHP's safemode?
diakopter ooo masakbug
I mean
masak diakopter: then what's all the program_prefix crap in evalbot.pl?
frettled object-oriented osbtructive masakbug? 22:06
diakopter it's the contents of Safe.pm
it doesn't "use Safe;"
masak right.
how come it doesn't work?
diakopter get_hll_namespace or find_lex must do something different
PerlJam It works for alpha, so just run all unsafe operations through there ;) 22:07
masak anyway, I don't see a rakudobug in it, since the safemode thing is related to the evalbot, not to rakudo as such. 22:08
diakopter Safe.pm is in git
22:10 bluescreen left
dalek kudo: d0a4488 | duff++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
Use &eager to Parcelize the statement modifier for loop
 22:13
22:16 jonasbn left
colomon > .say for "hello"; 22:19
hello
\o/
PerlJam rakudo: .say for "greeble"; 22:20
jnthn :-)
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«g␤r␤e␤e␤b␤l␤e␤»
PerlJam I guess it does update every 30 minutes
jnthn :-/ 22:21
S11's description of import is...confusing.
masak is it at least deconfusable?
jnthn I dunno.
It's changed since I last implemented tagging. 22:22
You can do stuff like:
sub foo is export(:tag1, :tag2) { ... }
Presumably so you can then import interesting groups of methods
masak nod.
mberends jnthn: when you work on 'use', could you work on 'require' (run time loading) as well, or is that too big an ask?
jnthn iirc you can then do like: 22:23
use ModuleWithFoo :tag1;
But I don't spot that in S11 now?
PerlJam std; need Foo;
std: need Foo; 22:24
p6eval std 30020: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Can't locate module Foo at /tmp/Qx74YuKx3K line 1:␤------> need Foo⏏;␤ok 00:01 106m␤»
jnthn mberends: require's spec looks curious too :-)
mberends :-/
masak jnthn: I've been thinking a bit more about assignment and binding. would it be reasonable to describe these two operations as implicitly accessing some variable %pad in the runtime?
pugssvn r30021 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Unfudge test that now works, duff++.
jnthn "Importing via C<require> also installs names into the current lexical scope by
default, but delays the actual binding till runtime:
"
mberends: That is, it does a need at compile time but does binding into the lexpad a bit later, but still needs to know the symbols it will import ahead of time. 22:25
mberends saw that too
jnthn That's kinda...not what I expected.
masak: I guess in binding, you're modifying the pad. In assignment, you're using the pad to look up some container, and then changing what's in the container. 22:26
masak right.
jnthn mberends: Is it what you expected?
masak rakudo: my $a := 42; say 42; $a = 5
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p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«:= binding of variables not yet implemented␤current instr.: '&die' pc 16804 (src/builtins/Junction.pir:373)␤» 22:26
masak alpha: my $a := 42; say 42; $a = 5
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«42␤»
masak ah, good old alpha. 22:27
alpha: my $a := 42; say $a; $a = 5; say $a
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«42␤5␤»
jnthn I accidentally the assignment.
masak that's wrong, innit?
jnthn Yes.
masak good.
mberends jnthn: no. I expected something like 'use "$module";' to do DWIM at run time, somehow :-/ 22:28
22:28 ive left
Tene mberends: not in master, unless that's been changed recently. 22:29
jnthn mberends: I don't see that working.
It won't even parse.
std: use "$module";
Tene std: my $foo = "Test"; use "$foo";
p6eval std 30020: OUTPUT«Undeclared routine:␤ 'use' used at line 1␤ok 00:01 107m␤»
std 30020: OUTPUT«Undeclared routine:␤ 'use' used at line 1␤ok 00:01 106m␤»
jnthn ...erm. 22:30
mberends indeed :-(
jnthn lta.
But I thought require could do that.
But as spec'd it...can't.
:-/
Well
We have commit bits.
mberends there goes my FakeDBI dream...
jnthn mberends: Change the require spec to something that does what you want, then I'll implement it.
The import syntax seems to be f**ked too. :-/ 22:31
mberends I wish I knew how to spec it responsibly
jnthn That bit made some sense once.
I see just about zero use case for the way require is currently spec'd. 22:32
You may as well just use "use"
What is it you were particularly trying to do?
Load an appropriate DBD?
masak rakudo: my $module = 'Test'; eval "use $module" 22:33
p6eval rakudo a11211: ( no output )
jnthn Well, there is that. :-)
masak rakudo: my $module = 'Test'; eval "use $module"; ok 1, "OH HAI"
p6eval rakudo a11211: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub &ok␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
masak hm.
mberends jnthn: exactly. eval( "use $module" ) runs, but probably does almost nothing.
jnthn masak: Lexical import.
masak ah.
operative word being 'lexical' :)
jnthn mberends: Workaround: 22:36
Perl6::Module::Loader.need($name, {}); # XXX NON-SPEC HACK!!! 22:37
mberends heehee
masak rakudo: Perl6::Module::Loader
p6eval rakudo a11211: ( no output )
masak ooh. :)
jnthn oh no
:-)
masak rubs hands 22:38
what's the hash for? symbols?
jnthn Adverbs.
masak ah, 'course.
jnthn ver => 42
etc
For anyone curious, src/Perl6/Module/ is the module location/loading implementation. 22:39
It's in NQP
masak \o/
jnthn Which means that it should be rather more accessible than if it was in, say, PIR.
PerlJam NQP doesn't do backtracking control with :, ::, :::, and <cut> yet does it? 22:41
jnthn I don't think so 22:42
22:42 __rnddim__ is now known as lue
mberends jnthn: tried both modulename and modulename.pir, both give the error: 22:42
get_pmc_keyed() not implemented in class '' 22:43
current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6;Module;Loader;need'
jnthn oh. :-(
mberends oh, perl6;Perl6;
jnthn That's OK.
oh
I bet it's that adverbial hash.
22:43 pmurias left
jnthn Trouble is, it wants something Parrot-hashish 22:44
And our Perl 6 ones don't look like that yet.
mberends it's a pointer in the right hacky direction
jnthn If you change
method need($name, %name_adverbs) {
to
method need($name, %name_adverbs?) {
In Perl6/Module/Loader.pm 22:45
You may get away with that.
mberends goes for it
jnthn It's all guts, so the interface is only sorta important.
(as in, we can revise it at will)
masak jnthn: containers (in the sense "a variable usually has one of those") can't be created in isolation, can they? 22:46
jnthn "in isolation"? 22:47
Array.new # omg container!
masak something like 'my $c = lol-create-container(); my $var := $c; # $var now points to the new container $x' 22:48
jnthn: no, I think I mean a scalar container.
jnthn my $c := omg-awesome-a-container-maker(); # may well work I guess.
masak ok.
feels like there's some sort of oddity there. 22:49
something in the area of the $b in '$a := $b' meaning 'the container in $b', not 'the symbol $b itself'.
jnthn Yes 22:50
masak just like the $b in '$a = $b' means 'the value in [the container in]? $b', rather than 'the symbol $b itself'.
jnthn In Rakudo $a = $b; really desugars to $a!STORE($b!FETCH)
masak oh, nice.
but both $a and $b are entries in some pad somewhere, no? 22:51
PerlJam Should we have Scalar just like we have Array anyway though?
er, s/Should/Shouldn't/
masak PerlJam: we do. 22:52
PerlJam rakudo: Scalar.new
p6eval rakudo d0a448: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub &Scalar␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
PerlJam rakudo: Array.new
p6eval rakudo d0a448: ( no output )
masak PerlJam: the spec mentions it liberally.
22:52 lichtkind left
PerlJam it's specced but not rakudoed 22:52
masak PerlJam: the type always seemed slightly odd to me, but people on a higher resonance plane assuer me that it's very important.
s/assuer/assure/ 22:53
dalek kudo: 0a0469e | duff++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.pm:
parse version and need
PerlJam I've got to go. Talk to you guys later.
PerlJam &
22:54 am0c left
masak snarkyboojum: ping 22:55
snarkyboojum masak: pong :)
phenny snarkyboojum: 09 Mar 21:32Z <masak> tell snarkyboojum that all tests in Tardis pass now. \o/ -- time for the next iteration of spec/test/implementation... :)
masak snarkyboojum: what phenny said :)
snarkyboojum masak: you're too fast :) I've been checking your changes out - but haven't played with it much
masak: life getting in the way ;) 22:56
masak snarkyboojum: I mostly need someone to bounce ideas with again. but I no rush -- let me know when it's convenient for you.
we prefer to push people to less than their breaking point here on #perl6 :) 22:57
snarkyboojum masak: sure thing.. I want to get my hands dirty as well tho :)
masak snarkyboojum: if you mean implementation, we'd need more tests first. I maded 10 tests, but I implemented them. :P 22:58
snarkyboojum masak: okydoke
22:58 rv2733 left
masak snarkyboojum: I thought about maybe letting you do the interactive debugger part, the one where one actually queries the ticks and gets information about the variables. I think that might be quite a pleasant task. 22:59
snarkyboojum masak: I see - sounds juicy
masak: off to the accountant - bb in a couple of hours if you're around 23:01
23:01 iblechbot left
lue masak: if you need _ideas_ bounced around, that's me :D 23:01
masak snarkyboojum: I'll try to be back in eight hours or so.
snarkyboojum masak: excellent - speak to you later then 23:02
mberends jnthn: same error, need sleep srsly. goodnight &
23:02 TiMBuS joined
masak lue: great! I could outline an idea for a blog post about assignment and binding for you. 23:02
lue sure. I can do that. Just... where? :D 23:03
jnthn mberends: OK, catch me tomorrow
We;ll try and hunt it down.
Sleep well o/
masak lue: either here on-channel or in a privmsg booth.
mberends o/
23:03 mberends left
masak mberends: 'night! 23:03
jnthn ETOOLATE
masak I happen to know mberends backlogs :) 23:04
lue ETOOMUCHKNOWLEDGE
EBACKLOGGING
jnthn ENEEDPIVO
masak :)
m6locks ELOL 23:05
arnsholt jnthn: Enjoying state monopoly on alcohol yet? =)
jnthn arnsholt: It seems to have its good points.
masak rakudo: my $a = 42; my $b = $a; say $b 23:06
p6eval rakudo d0a448: OUTPUT«42␤»
jnthn A whole wall of beer immaculately catergorized by type isn't something to complain about. :-)
masak lue: ok, so the above program is very simple. it's expressible in most programming languages.
23:06 nihiliad left
lue a=b. Got It! ō\ 23:07
masak lue: we can say something like "oh, there are two symbols called '$a' and '$b'. when we do '$b = $a;' we take the value associated with the symbol $a and assign the same value with the symbol $b."
lue: a bit dry, but a description that explains what's going on. 23:08
now, let's make that description collapse. :)
lue and a:=b would assign the same address in memory, correct?
masak I'm getting to that. 23:09
you have the right idea.
alpha: my $a; my $b := $a; $a = 42; say $b
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«42␤»
masak note how we associate $b with $a before assigning 42 to $a.
note also the ':=' for binding and the '=' for assignment. 23:10
so the inevitable conclusion is that there are not TWO levels of abstraction -- symbols and their values -- but THREE levels: symbols, containers and values.
assignment, '=', digs down and assigns a new value to a container. 23:11
binding, ':=', digs down and assigns a new container to a symbol.
er, 'binds a new container to a symbol', I should say.
23:12 ShaneC joined
lue Alright. I'm wondering where to post this though (probably not my blog... :) ) 23:12
masak oh, I meant that I'm planning a post. :)
lue ah :)
masak but if you want to post it, feel free.
then there's the little detail of some symbols binding directly to a value, skipping the container altogether.
rakudo: my $a := 42
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«:= binding of variables not yet implemented␤current instr.: '&die' pc 16804 (src/builtins/Junction.pir:373)␤»
japhb pmichaud, ping
masak alpha: my $a := 42; say $a 23:13
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«42␤»
lue I can draw some fancy diagrammy things :D
masak lue: aye, I had the same notion :)
containers are definitely small boxy thingies.
lue: anyway, binding may seem quirky and slightly unnecessary at first, until one realizes that that's exactly how arguments and parameters work. 23:14
alpha: sub foo($b is rw) { $b = 5 }; my $a = 42; foo($a); say $a
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«5␤»
lue seemed perfectly normal to me :D
masak lue: yes, but you're notoriously used to Douglas Adams-like concepts already :P 23:15
binding essentially introduces action-at-a-distance.
also, there are a few things to say about typed variables. 23:18
one does typing on the symbol, but the checks are done against the container.
alpha: my Int $a = 5; my $b := $a; $b = 'OH HAI' 23:19
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Assignment type check failed; expected Int, but got Str␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
masak that's the type constraint of $a giving an error for an assignment to $b, since they both share the same container.
in other words, when assigned to, a container must do a 23:20
number of checks 'inherited' from the symbols associated with it.
lue = is a copy machine, := is a sharer. That good enough of a description? :D 23:22
masak it's very pretty.
there are some subleties having to do with scalars which make the 'copy machine' part a simplification. but you definitely got the right idea. 23:23
lue It's a lead-in, at least :)
23:23 ShaneC left
masak also, I found a bug in alpha's treatment of binding and types. 23:23
alpha: my Str $a; my Int $b := $a; my $c := $b; $c = "HAI"; say $b
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«HAI␤»
23:24 am0c joined, ShaneC joined
masak since $a, $b, and $c all point to the same container, it shouldn't be able to contain a non-Int. 23:24
skipping the $c makes the error show up.
alpha: my Str $a; my Int $b := $a; $a = "HAI"; say $b 23:25
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«HAI␤»
23:25 ShaneC left
masak hm. or not. 23:25
lue nope :D
masak it's simply broken.
lue Maybe alpha gets messed up and $c is bound to $b, and not going further along the chain to $a
jnthn I could argue it's complicatedly broken.
masak jnthn: :)
unfortunately, I have to wait for rakudo master to implement binding before I can submit this bug. :) 23:26
jnthn \o/ 23:27
guess what I haz?
> module Foo { sub bar() is export { say "beer" } }
> { import Foo; say "inner"; bar(); }; say "outer"; bar();
inner
beer
outer
Could not find non-existent sub &bar
lue what, you can't submit a future potential bug!? O.o
23:27 patspam joined
masak jnthn: \o/ 23:27
jnthn need also works. :-)
masak lue: no, not without a time-travelling bug tracker :) 23:28
rakudo: class Foo { has %.bar; }; my $f = Foo.new; say $f.bar.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«Hash()␤»
jnthn I fixed that one. :-)
masak oh cool, that was a bug a day or so ago. :)
jnthn++
jnthn I *think* we got a test for it too.
masak rakudo: @_.=[3]
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«Method '!postcircumfix:<[ ]>' not found for invocant of class 'ResizablePMCArray'␤current instr.: '!dispatch_.=' pc 440 (src/glue/dispatch.pir:118)␤»
masak was that one submitted?
it's a diakopterbug. 23:29
lue it can't be! (horrid pun, I know)
masak maybe I'm slow, but I don't immediately see the pun... 23:30
jnthn Not sure on submitted, but it looks familiar.
masak submits rakudobug
jnthn spectests.
lue it=@_ (very obsure i must say)
23:30 jferrero joined
jnthn OK, so today I got employed and beer, and Rakudo got lexical import and need and initial import keyword support. 23:31
A good day all in all.
masak lue: yes, I'd probably associate '$_' with 'it', but not '@_'...
jnthn: yay! 23:32
lue isn't @_ it as well, but in array format?
masak well, @_'d have to be 'them' :)
and it's not really as topical-y as $_ is.
lue jnthn: we salute ye! ō\ (this is why you get an omnisub jnthn :) )
how's about @_ apples? :P
masak :D 23:33
lue then what's %_
jnthn OH, just take "it" and pluralize to get "its". :-)
masak that's 'named them'.
jnthn oh yeah
masak jnthn: you're evil :)
jnthn :-)
Tomorrow I'll try and get us not to have to pre-compile to PIR. 23:34
masak rakudo: @_[3]
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: ( no output )
jnthn I'm pondering going the whole hog and checking the modification times and ignoring the .pir if the .pm is newer.
23:34 ShaneC joined
masak jnthn: that would save a lot of masak confusion in the heat of coding. 23:34
jnthn Then some enterprising soul (Friday jnthn?) just gotta implement the automatic re-compilation to PIR.
23:35 snarkyboojum left
jnthn If anyone fancies writing a few tests for need and import, that would be cool. 23:35
masak I'm still a tad uneasy about automatic (re-)compilation, for some reason.
can't really put my finger on it, so I'll pipe down.
jnthn In that case, maybe it's important we do have an implementation, so your finger can find its place. :-) 23:36
CokeGod we're going to have to recompile it anyway.
yes? just a question of whether or not to render it on disk?
masak jnthn: aye, I think so. maybe I'm just superstitious in this case.
lue
.oO(I defy CokeGod! I only trust PepsiGod!)
jnthn masak: I'll suppress the feature on Friday 13th and we'll write the file in the color red. 23:37
lue I've written things in the color bitter before :)
23:37 rgrau left
jnthn CokeGod: Yeah, with the slight issue that we may not have the ability to write, so need to be ready to fail. 23:37
masak CokeGod: I'm thinking more something along the lines of a module being loaded at runtime in a directory where there are no write permissions, and the program failing because it can't write the .pir file to disk. or something.
jnthn Well, not to fail. 23:38
masak jnthn: ColorPerl6. :)
jnthn But to just work anyway.
I figure if we compile to PIR, we can then try and write to disk regardless, and then eval it and run it.
And if the write fails, it's no real waste. 23:39
masak nod.
jnthn I expect the installer will pre-compile modules in read-only locations.
masak I'm less worried now.
jnthn :-)
jnthn is enjoying hacking on Rakudo :-) 23:41
lue jnthn: that was a few days ago :) 23:42
jnthn No no, I'm still enjoying it. :-)
lue ought to code that converter to find out when jnthn day is :) 23:43
23:47 eternaleye joined 23:48 alester joined
lue
.oO(We are now at arity-2 activity levels :) )
 23:50
masak ok, I decided to simplify the SIC code somewhat. 23:52
now it's just 'fetch' and 'store' instructions. 23:53
github.com/masak/tardis/blob/master/docs/plans
jnthn The errors in that document make me [SIC]
masak that should take care of the "don't know whether there's a container in there" problem.
yay, the first SIC pun! :)
was looking forward to that.
lue s/[SIC]/\u0000/ #I sed not to use puns :) 23:56
jnthn That was a bit of an awkward pun.
lue don't you mean AWKward? (oh man, raocowing the puns like it was no thing!) 23:57
masak also, 'sed' is Latin for 'but', which is mildly appropriate. 23:59
jnthn oh, cute.

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