»ö« | perl6.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, alpha:, pugs:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by lichtkind on 5 March 2010.
lue I can't grep hold of this pun factory right now :D 00:00
Ack! stop the puns!
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jnthn They're synful! 00:00
lue can someone help us? man! :D 00:01
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lue I can't find the rakudo directory. I've tried the cd! :D 00:04
m6locks which directory? 00:05
lue m6locks: just kidding. It's a continuation of our pun factory :)
m6locks oh :D
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diakopter barely escapes to the fun pactory 00:08
masak lue: pretending to need help is dangerously close to crying wolf :)
lue silly diakopter! that's a spoonerism! :D 00:09
masak .oO( s-pun-erism )
lue masak: sorry. Was grasping for a pun. :)
masak don't get on your toes for them, grasp the low-hanging ones :) 00:10
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lue xkcd.com/192/ the tooltip is priceless :) 00:12
er, title-text 00:13
masak I sometimes forget not everyone knows the secret of levitation. 00:14
er.
I mean "ha ha" :)
now if you'll excuse me, I'll just float into bed. 00:15
o/
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jnthn
.oO( oh, so he can levitate? I thought it was all the beer I'd had! )
 00:15
lue bye masak (you dirty backlog reader) :) o/ 00:16
I would levitate, but I'm in a no-fly zone right now (somewhere around Proxima Centauri)
strictly unpowered floating :/ 00:17
But that's only because the steering is great w/o motorized movement. Gravity flucuations and all :) 00:18
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lue oi sb o/ 00:37
jnthn sleep time 00:38
o/
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lue o/ 00:39
m6locks o/ -> 00:40
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lue All For Knowledge (AFK) 00:50
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supernovus Well, lesson #1: A Persistent Perl 6 SCGI daemon running on a VPS with only 128 MB of RAM == Not a good idea! 02:17
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supernovus But, initial problems aside, through some really dark magicks, I now have a very simple website being powered by Perl 6. 02:25
PerlJam supernovus++ sweet 02:27
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supernovus I have a few more plugins to write, and it will actually have enough user-facing functionality to replace it's Perl 5 based predecessor that currently powers my primary website. 02:36
lue rakudo: say sqrt(9); 02:39
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«3␤»
lue rakudo: say sqrt(-1); 02:40
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
lue rakudo: say e**(pi*sqrt(-1))
PerlJam lue: that's too complex
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
lue :/ humbug
perl6 say sqrt(-1)
perl6: say sqrt(-1)
p6eval elf 30021: OUTPUT«Undefined subroutine &GLOBAL::sqrt called at (eval 123) line 3.␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤»
..pugs, rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
lue alpha: say sqrt(-1) 02:41
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
lue bargh!
PerlJam perl6: say 3+4i 02:42
p6eval elf 30021: OUTPUT«7␤»
..pugs, rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«3 + 4i␤»
PerlJam elf: you have strange ideas.
p6eval elf 30021: OUTPUT«Parse error in: /tmp/aC7JBGUA80␤panic at line 1 column 0 (pos 0): Can't understand next input--giving up␤WHERE: you have strange ideas.␤WHERE:/\<-- HERE␤ STD_red/prelude.rb:99:in `panic'␤ STD_red/std.rb:76:in `scan_unitstopper'␤ STD_red/std.rb:224:in `comp_unit'␤
..STD_red/std.rb…
lue perl6: say i
p6eval elf 30021: OUTPUT«Undefined subroutine &GLOBAL::i called at (eval 123) line 3.␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤»
..rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub &i␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&i"␤ at /tmp/IKmO1zJLdc line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
lue rakudo: say 1i
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«0 + 1i␤»
spinclad supernovus: how do you keep it small enough to run? give up on persistence, restart periodically or every time? 02:43
lue rakudo: say e**(pi*1i)
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«-1 + 1.22464679914735e-16i␤»
lue I suppose it does kinda equal -1...
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spinclad rakudo: say ln(-1+0i) 02:44
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub &ln␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
spinclad rakudo: say log(-1+0i) 02:45
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«0 + 3.14159265358979i␤»
lue pi! \o/ 02:46
supernovus spinclad: Actually, the SCGI daemon is still running persistently (for speed reasons) but is running on my home computer which is a LOT more powerful than the VPS. Reverse proxy using OpenSSH makes it seem "local" to the VPS.
lue imaginary pi! :(
rakudo: my $cake=3; my $inum=1+2i; say real($inum); say imag($inum); 02:47
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub &real␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
lue aw. How can you extract the real and imaginary parts?
PerlJam $c.re $c.im 02:49
lue thanks.
rakudo: my $inum=1+2i; say $inum.re; say $inum.im;
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«1␤2␤»
supernovus Anyway, for comparison sake: huri.net/ is running Perl 5. ww6.huri.net/ is running Perl 6. They aren't identical (in appearance or speed) but they are pretty close (other than content, which I haven't ported over yet, since I didn't make backwards compatibility a goal...) 02:50
lue rakudo: my $cake=pi; say log(-1+0i); log(-1+0i).im~~pi ?? say "no!" !! say "phew"; 02:51
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«0 + 3.14159265358979i␤Method 'ACCEPTS' not found for invocant of class 'Num'␤current instr.: 'infix:<~~>' pc 229607 (src/gen/perl6-actions.pir:17310)␤»
lue rakudo: my $cake=pi; say log(-1+0i); log(-1+0i).im~~$cake ?? say "no!" !! say "phew";
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«0 + 3.14159265358979i␤Method 'ACCEPTS' not found for invocant of class 'Num'␤current instr.: 'infix:<~~>' pc 229607 (src/gen/perl6-actions.pir:17310)␤»
lue rakudo: my $cake=pi; say log(-1+0i); my $num = log(-1+0i); $num.im~~$cake ?? say "no!" !! say "phew"; 02:52
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«0 + 3.14159265358979i␤Method 'ACCEPTS' not found for invocant of class 'Num'␤current instr.: 'infix:<~~>' pc 229607 (src/gen/perl6-actions.pir:17310)␤»
lue alpha: my $cake=pi; say log(-1+0i); my $num = log(-1+0i); $num.im~~$cake ?? say "no!" !! say "phew";
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«0 + 3.14159265358979i␤no!␤»
lue the cake IS a lie! :D
it's imaginary!
(that would be a good thing to code/test for in 楽土. 02:53
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lue hello snarkyboojum! o/ 02:54
snarkyboojum lue: g'day \o
sorear hello... I'm trying to use the MOP to help me learn, and when I tried "say 2.^methods()" in git rakudo I got a hang. Did I do something wrong or should I file a bug somewhere?
lue rakudo: say 2.^methods() 02:55
#just checking
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«maximum recursion depth exceeded␤current instr.: 'perl6;Seq;!fill' pc 13697 (src/builtins/Block.pir:19)␤»
lue oooh O.O I would help you with this predicament, but I honestly do not know. (this seems like a bug to me, personally) 02:56
PerlJam sorear: it's a known bug
sorear Oh, sorry
PerlJam no worries. It really needs fixing.
lue yummy recursion is yummy recursion is yummy... :) 02:57
sorear is trying to find something like Python's dir or Perl5's keys %::
lue .xkcd(xkcd.com/138/ the pun doesn't work as well with Perl, but still) 03:00
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lue --watch-tv --show="psych" & 03:01
PerlJam lue++ thanks for reminding me :)
PerlJam looks forward to the day when "make spectest" doesn't take forever 03:08
Tene PerlJam: you could always delete some tests... 03:19
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snarkyboojum PerlJam: when will be that day? 03:23
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supernovus Well, I think I'll finish the last of the user-facing stuff in my CMS, then give the web stuff a rest for a few days. Next up on my Perl 6 TODO list: helping masak with the Temporal Flux project. 03:31
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TimToady sigh, there seems to be a pervasive assumption on the part of test suite writers that undefined types and functions are merely run-time errors... 03:40
they keep testing it with dies_ok
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vamped o/ all 03:42
TimToady \o
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colomon TimToady: how would you suggest undefined types and functions should be tested? 04:16
lue: try finding the sqrt of (-1 + 0i) :)
TimToady well, best we can do at the moment is eval_dies_ok 04:17
colomon Hmmmm... so eval_dies_ok actually does eval, whereas dies_ok just does try? 04:18
TimToady to do better would either require separate files that are tested to destruction, or more cooperation from the parser to tell it that, say, the following line shouldn't compile, but start up again on the line after
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colomon hopes he is not responsible for propagating incorrect tests.... 04:21
TimToady one problem with eval is that it can't test that something fails in the same scope 04:22
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colomon It almost seems like the right solution would be to make a separate file.... hmmm. 04:25
mberends (backlogging) that amazing jnthn++ may have converted some beer into exactly the code I 'required' (or maybe 'need'), which I shall try to 'use' immediately after I 'import' his additions :) 04:31
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pmichaud good evening, #perl6 04:50
mberends good late-evening, pmichaud
pmichaud yes, late-evening here, definitely.
almost very-early-morning.
mberends we haz that in Europe now 04:51
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mberends module loading sorta wfm now, hacking during commute will be lotsa -Ofun :) 05:32
dalek kudo: e634b58 | (Martin Berends)++ | src/Perl6/Module/Loader.pm:
[Perl6/Module/Loader.pm] patch by jnthn++ need's %name_adverbs argument optional
 05:33
mberends ^^ candidate for most unclear commit message 05:34
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mberends shower && commute & 05:35
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lue hello! 05:38
rakudo: say sqrt(-1+0i) 05:39
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«0 + 1i␤»
lue (wow, big raocow laugh/moment right there) 05:40
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lue rakudo: say (-1+0i)**2 05:40
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«1 + -2.44929359829471e-16i␤»
lue should be -1, methinks :/
oh no, it's 1, but w/o the imaginary part 05:41
vamped rakudo: say (0+1i)**2 05:42
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«-1 + 1.22464679914735e-16i␤»
lue again, correct except for the imaginary part :)
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vamped has anyone said that we should be able to get 0i with our current model? 05:43
ie, using rats 05:44
lue don't know. I have not learned imaginary numbers, but methinks 0*√(-1) = 0
rakudo: say 1.22464679914735e-16 05:45
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«1.22464679914735e-16␤»
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TimToady rakudo: say 1i * 1i 06:09
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«-1 + 0i␤»
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lue if I remember from last time, someone convinced me on the importance of keep 0i. Reconvince me please :) 06:09
TimToady rakudo: say sqrt(1i * 1i) 06:10
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«0 + 1i␤»
TimToady rakudo: say sqrt(-1)
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
lue rakudo: say sqrt(-1)**2 06:11
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
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TimToady rakudo: say sqrt(-1+0i)**2 06:11
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«-1 + 1.22464679914735e-16i␤»
sorear lue: Fractions are not infinitely precise in computing; if a very small imaginary number underflows, we should at least try to remember the phase 06:12
also, it would be inconsistant to allow -0 but not 0i 06:13
lue what confuses me is that if the computation is (0+1*√(-1))**2 it doesn't come out just -1 :/ 06:14
TimToady rakudo: multi sub sqrt(Real $x) { return sqrt($x+0i) }; say sqrt(-1) 06:15
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«Invalid typename in parameter declaration at line 11, near " $x) { ret"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
TimToady rakudo: multi sub sqrt(Num $x) { return sqrt($x+0i) }; say sqrt(-1)
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'sqrt'␤current instr.: 'sqrt' pc 215 (EVAL_1:81)␤»
TimToady rakudo: multi sub sqrt(Int $x) { return sqrt($x+0i) }; say sqrt(-1)
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'sqrt'␤current instr.: 'sqrt' pc 215 (EVAL_1:81)␤»
TimToady rakudo: multi sub sqrt(Num $x) { return sqrt($x+0i) }; say sqrt(-1e0)
p6eval rakudo 0a0469: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'sqrt'␤current instr.: 'sqrt' pc 221 (EVAL_1:83)␤» 06:16
lue Can rakudo do that yet? It should.
(multi sub that is)
TimToady oughta work
alpha: multi sub sqrt(Num $x) { return sqrt($x+0i) }; say sqrt(-1e0)
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«0 + 1i␤»
TimToady just a regression
but the point is, the default behavior is easy to override 06:17
if you want sqrt to promote reals to complex
lue I'm just stumped on the fact that this does not return -1:
rakudo: say (0+1i)**2
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«-1 + 1.22464679914735e-16i␤» 06:18
lue NQ -1 :)
hejki awesome! :)
TimToady ** is only approximate; probably done with logs
lue you can ignore it with .re but then you'd be assuming you would never need the imaginary part (which isn't good)
TimToady usually math packages trap **Int and just optimize to multiplication, but obviously not here 06:19
if it did that optimizaiton, it'd get the exact result:
rakudo: say sqrt(1i * 1i)
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«0 + 1i␤»
TimToady rakudo: say 1i * 1i 06:20
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«-1 + 0i␤»
TimToady like that
rakudo: say (1i * 1i) ** 0.5
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«6.12323399573677e-17 + 1i␤»
hejki rakudo: say (2+1i)**2
TimToady same problem in reverse
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«3 + 4i␤»
hejki :)
lue now see, that's better. (again, ignoring +0i would be great, but I remember there being a good reason to keep it)
TimToady we try to keep reals real, and complexes complex, to preserve sanity of people with poor imaginations 06:21
lue oh :/ ! that's not -Ofun. That's -Opracticality and -Oletsavoidanypossibleconfrontations :) 06:22
TimToady 'course, just having negatives would drive your average Roman nuts
lue multiplication would drive your average Roman nuts :) (actually, numbers greater than 3 can start to get on their nerves :D ) 06:23
TimToady the flip side of easy type widening is having to decide when it's reasonable to unwiden, which is a much harder issue 06:24
my Num $x = (0+1i)**2; # does this throw away the tiny imaginary part?
hejki rakudo: my Num $x = (0+1i)**2; say $x; 06:25
lue just like use strict and use warnings in P5, maybe there could be a use precisionmath :)
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«Type check failed for assignment␤current instr.: '&die' pc 16804 (src/builtins/Junction.pir:373)␤»
TimToady so generally better to stick to complex consistently once you get there, and try not to go there accidentally
likewise for FatRat 06:26
hejki rakudo: say ((0+1i)**2).WHAT
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«Complex()␤»
hejki nicey
TimToady rakudo: say (1+0i).WHAT
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«Complex()␤»
lue
.oO(I fancy the idea of being able to "configure" the interpreter before you run code. ie. C<use hexint> would display integers in hex by default (and so on))
 06:27
TimToady hence we can have sqrt do mind reading based on the input type
hejki rakudo: say ((2+1i)**2).Num
p6eval rakudo e634b5: ( no output )
TimToady lue: not if it means action at a distance
hejki hmm.. is there a method to extract the real or img part out of a complex? :)
TimToady it's okay in a lexical scope though
sure 06:28
use .re and .im
hejki rakudo: say ((2+1i)**2).re
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«3␤»
hejki ahh.. wonderful
lue you can avoid this fuss by doing some simple checking, but checking for 0 is easier than 1.22464679914735e-16
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hejki this channel is nice since it actually makes me passively learn more about p6 :> 06:28
TimToady yeah, well, it's a tradeoff; the fact that we're talking to you means we're not actually working on it... 06:29
lue stay here long enough, and you'll passively learn secrets about 楽土 and potentially other implementations.
TimToady rakudo: say (1,1,{$^a+$^b}...*)[10] 06:31
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤»
TimToady rakudo: say (1,2,4...*)[10] 06:33
p6eval rakudo e634b5: ( no output )
TimToady rakudo: say (1,2,4...*).batch(10) 06:34
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«1248163264128256512␤»
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TimToady rakudo: say ~(1,2,4...*).batch(10) 06:35
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512␤»
TimToady rakudo: say ~(1,1, {$^a+$^b}...*).batch(10)
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤»
hejki :<
TimToady though colomon did arity-2 from remarks earlier
*thought
lue he did, but on his own machine (from my memory) 06:36
TimToady ah
snarkyboojum in the series subbranch?
TimToady rakudo: say [(1,2,4...*).batch(10)][9] 06:37
snarkyboojum breanch even
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«512␤»
snarkyboojum branch
TimToady rakudo: say [(1,2,4...*).batch(11)][10]
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«1024␤»
TimToady there we go :)
but bare [10] should work
methinks
lue ラクダの死亡星 is fully functional, operator-nal, and OOP-nal. 楽土の死亡星 is almost only functional and operator-nal :) 06:38
TimToady meaning a subscript should promote an iterator to a Seq
snarkyboojum justrakudoit.wordpress.com/2010/03/...-progress/
lue (i am bored)
snarkyboojum rakudo: (1, 1, { $^a + $^b } ... *).batch(20).perl.say
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤»
snarkyboojum looks like it's not in master
TimToady rakudo: say ~[\+] (1,2,4...*).batch(10) 06:41
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«You can't backslash that at line 11, near "+] (1,2,4."␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
TimToady alpha: say ~[\+] (1,2,4...1024)
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«say requires an argument at line 10, near " ~[\\+] (1,"␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 2593)␤»
TimToady hmm
alpha: say ~[\+] (1,2,4,*...1024)
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«say requires an argument at line 10, near " ~[\\+] (1,"␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 2593)␤»
lue Now THAT is an error message "You can't backslash that at..." :) 06:42
TimToady alpha: say ~[+] (1,2,4...1024)
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Multiple Dispatch: No suitable candidate found for 'cmp', with signature 'PP->I'␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
TimToady std: say ~[\+] (1,2,4...*).batch(10)
p6eval std 30021: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 108m␤» 06:43
TimToady std sez you *can* backslash that :)
alpha: say ~[\+] 1,2,4,8,16,32
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«say requires an argument at line 10, near " ~[\\+] 1,2"␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 2593)␤» 06:44
TimToady pugs: say ~[\+] 1,2,4,8,16,32
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«1 3 7 15 31 63␤»
lue That's the kind of error that's -Ofun and not -Oplayitsafe :)
TimToady pugs: say ~[\+] 1,3,5,7,9,11.13 06:45
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«1 4 9 16 25 36.13␤»
TimToady pugs: say ~[\+] 1,3,5,7,9,11,13
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«1 4 9 16 25 36 49␤»
TimToady pugs likes it...
alpha: say [+] 1,2,3 06:47
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: ( no output )
lue well hmph! º.º
TimToady I thought alpha did reductions alreaqdy 06:48
alpha: say [*] 1,2,3
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«6␤»
TimToady alpha: say [\*] 1,2,3,4,5 06:49
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Confused at line 10, near "1,2,3,4,5"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
snarkyboojum silly question - but what does the \ do?
TimToady returns all the intermediate result
snarkyboojum ah
TimToady which usually makes it look like a triangle :)
hence the visual metaphor of |\
snarkyboojum er.. ok :) 06:50
rakudo: say [*] ^5
TimToady 0
lue /\ is a better visual :D
p6eval rakudo e634b5: ( no output )
TimToady rakudo: say [*] ^5 06:51
snarkyboojum rakudo: say ^5
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«one([!whatever_dispatch_helper], 5)␤»
rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«01234␤»
snarkyboojum no result is bizarre
TimToady rakudo doesn't parse reduce yet, so it thinks its an array of Whatever
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TimToady alpha: say [*] ^5 # 0 06:52
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«0␤»
TimToady 0 times anything is 0
snarkyboojum rakudo: say [*] 1..^5
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "say [*] 1."␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
snarkyboojum heh
TimToady rakudo won't parse any reduce yet 06:53
alpha will parse some of htem
*them even
std will parse all of them, but not do them :)
perl6: say [\*] 1,2,3,4,5 06:54
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«12624120␤»
..rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "say [\\*] 1"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
..elf 30021: OUTPUT«/home/p6eval/pugs/misc/STD_red/match.rb:117:in `block in to_dump0': undefined method `to_dump0' for nil:NilClass (NoMethodError)␤ from /home/p6eval/pugs/misc/STD_red/match.rb:117:in `map'␤ from /home/p6eval/pugs/misc/STD_red/match.rb:117:in `to_dump0'␤ from
../home/p6eval/pugs/misc/S…
TimToady pugs ftw
lue not for long hopefully >:) 06:55
sorear If Rakudo complains about "Null PMC access in invoke()", is that an internal bug diagnostic or a user error message
TimToady that's more or less equivalent to 'core dump' 06:56
but less friendly, since you don't actually get a core dump
lue it should print "core disabled. Blame Luke." 06:57
sorear worth filing a ticket for? it's trivially reproducable (last git pull: yesterday) 07:00
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TimToady if it's trivial we might already have it, but the volleyball principle says better too many going for the ball than too few 07:02
sorear okay
lue night all o/ 07:07
sorear hmm, I'm not finding any documentation on the proper formatting of rakudo bug reports 07:12
or is it completely freeform and all bugs are hand-copied into the queue
TimToady masak usually just copy/pastes some trials from the evalbot on irc
if you can reproduce it here as a one-liner 07:13
07:13 xomas left
sorear p6eval: say Foo::x 07:13
TimToady rakudo: say Foo::x 07:14
hmm 07:15
p6eval rakudo e634b5: ( no output )
TimToady std: say Foo::x
p6eval std 30021: ( no output )
TimToady odd, maybe server is overloaded
std: say Foo::x
p6eval std 30021: OUTPUT«Undeclared name:␤ 'Foo::x' used at line 1␤ok 00:01 104m␤» 07:16
TimToady rakudo: say Foo::x
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in invoke()␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
TimToady rakudo: say Foo
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub &Foo␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
sorear has insufficient clue what he is doing, and instead fuzz-tests the parser :)
TimToady rakudo: say Int::x 07:17
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in invoke()␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
TimToady I daresay someone didn't check a return value for error somewhere
maybe they should rewrite rakudo in Perl 6 :)
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TimToady std: say Int::x 07:19
p6eval std 30021: OUTPUT«Undeclared name:␤ 'Int::x' used at line 1␤ok 00:01 104m␤»
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sorear should I file, then, or do you want more tests? 07:20
TimToady std: class Foo {}; say Foo::x
p6eval std 30021: OUTPUT«Undeclared name:␤ 'Foo::x' used at line 1␤ok 00:01 105m␤»
TimToady you can file it
std: class Foo {}; say Foo::<$x>
p6eval std 30021: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 105m␤»
TimToady std: class Foo {}; say Foo::<&x> 07:21
p6eval std 30021: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 105m␤»
sorear what does that syntax do? 07:22
TimToady looks up &x in the Foo package
but it doesn't reject it because Foo is modifiable at run-time, so someone might add a &f to it 07:23
Foo::<$x> is the same as $Foo::x in p5
you can also use that syntax in p6
std: class Foo {}; say $Foo::x 07:24
sorear but $Foo::x is early bound?
TimToady no
p6eval std 30021: ( no output )
TimToady package vars are basically run-time lookups
we only complain about lexical vars, types, and functions at compile time 07:25
but unlike in p5 foo() is always compile-time lookup
if there's no foo defined lexically by the end of the file, it fails 07:26
std: foo 1,2,3; sub foo {...}
p6eval std 30021: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 106m␤»
TimToady std: foo 1,2,3;
p6eval std 30021: OUTPUT«Undeclared routine:␤ 'foo' used at line 1␤ok 00:01 106m␤»
07:27 Su-Shee joined, IllvilJa joined
Su-Shee good morning 07:27
TimToady or in the terms masak was using earlier today, we know the $Foo::x symbol, but we don't necessarily no the container or value at compile time
*know
o/
std: our $y; { { GLOBAL::<$y> }; my $y } 07:29
p6eval std 30021: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 107m␤»
TimToady std: our $y; { { UNIT::<$y> }; my $y } 07:30
p6eval std 30021: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 105m␤»
TimToady std: our $y; { { $y }; my $y }
p6eval std 30021: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 105m␤»
TimToady std: my $y; { { $y }; my $y }
p6eval std 30021: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Lexical symbol '$y' is already bound to an outer symbol (see line 1);␤ the implicit outer binding at line 1 must be rewritten as OUTER::OUTER::<$y>␤ before you can unambiguously declare a new '$y' in this scope at /tmp/QnRjY1W2WN line 1:␤------>
..[3…
TimToady std: my $y;␤{ { $y };␤my $y } 07:31
p6eval std 30021: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Lexical symbol '$y' is already bound to an outer symbol (see line 1);␤ the implicit outer binding at line 2 must be rewritten as OUTER::OUTER::<$y>␤ before you can unambiguously declare a new '$y' in this scope at /tmp/Qt7UPoJcNu line 3:␤------>
..[3…
TimToady std: my $y;␤{ { OUTER::<$y> };␤my $y }
p6eval std 30021: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable OUTER::<$y> is not predeclared at /tmp/grbpImCMy0 line 2:␤------> { { OUTER::<$y>⏏ };␤ expecting any of:␤ POST␤ postfix␤ postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤FAILED 00:01 105m␤»
TimToady std: my $y;␤{ { OUTER::OUTER::<$y> };␤my $y } 07:32
p6eval std 30021: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 105m␤»
TimToady std: my $y;␤{ { OUTER::OUTER::OUTER::<$y> };␤my $y }
p6eval std 30021: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable OUTER::OUTER::OUTER::<$y> is not predeclared at /tmp/LiyoCLmlHt line 2:␤------> { { OUTER::OUTER::OUTER::<$y>⏏ };␤ expecting any of:␤ POST␤ postfix␤ postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤FAILED 00:01 105m␤»
TimToady std: my $y;␤{ { MY::OUTER::OUTER::<$y> };␤my $y }
p6eval std 30021: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 105m␤»
TimToady std: my $y;␤{ { UNIT::<$y> };␤my $y } 07:33
p6eval std 30021: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 105m␤»
TimToady rakudo: my $y;␤{ { MY::OUTER::OUTER::<$y> };␤my $y } 07:34
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 12␤current instr.: 'perl6;Regex;Cursor;FAILGOAL' pc 1664 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/Regex-s0.pir:907)␤»
TimToady rakudo: my $y;␤{ { $MY::OUTER::OUTER::y };␤my $y } 07:35
p6eval rakudo e634b5: ( no output )
TimToady rakudo: my $y;␤{ { $OUTER::OUTER::y };␤my $y }
p6eval rakudo e634b5: ( no output )
sorear the rakudobug@ autoresponder claims to be adding bugs to the "perl" queue
scared me for a bit
(did I just report a bug against Perl 5 / the 6 spec?)
TimToady if you sent to rakudobug it should be fine 07:36
sorear yeah, checked sent folder to be sure
TimToady rakudo: my $y;␤{ { $y };␤my $y } 07:37
p6eval rakudo e634b5: ( no output )
TimToady rakudo: my $y;␤{ { $y };␤my $y }; say "ok"
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«ok␤»
TimToady rakudo: my $y;␤{ { $OUTER::y };␤my $y }; say "ok"
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«ok␤»
TimToady hmm
rakudo: my $y;␤{ { $OUTER::OUTER::y };␤my $y }; say "ok" 07:39
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«ok␤»
TimToady rakudo: my $y;␤{ { $OUTER::OUTER::OUTER::y };␤my $y }; say "ok"
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«ok␤»
TimToady um, at least three of the last four shoulda failed... 07:40
alpha: my $y;␤{ { $OUTER::OUTER::OUTER::y };␤my $y }; say "ok" 07:41
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«ok␤»
TimToady alpha: my $y = 42;␤{ { say $OUTER::OUTER::OUTER::y };␤my $y }; say "ok"
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤␤ok␤»
TimToady ah, caught rakudo doing run-time lookups on things known at compile time 07:42
alpha: my $y = 42;␤{ { say $OUTER::y };␤my $y }; say "ok"
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤␤ok␤»
TimToady alpha: my $y = 42;␤{ { say $y };␤my $y }; say "ok"
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in type()␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
TimToady alpha: my $y = 42;␤{ { say $y };␤my $x}; say "ok" 07:43
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«42␤ok␤»
TimToady alpha: my $y = 42;␤{ { say $OUTER::y };␤my $y = 43; }; say "ok" 07:45
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤␤ok␤»
TimToady std: my $y = 42;␤{ { say $OUTER::y };␤my $y = 43; }; say "ok"
p6eval std 30021: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $OUTER::y is not predeclared at /tmp/sLUcz2NlsC line 2:␤------> { { say $OUTER::y⏏ };␤ expecting any of:␤ POST␤ postfix␤ postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤FAILED 00:01 106m␤»
TimToady well, bedtime 07:46
zzz &
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sorear suppose I want to find a complete list of methods valid on a number. Where in the Rakudo sources should I look? 08:03
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JimmyZ sorear: like this? 08:19
rakudo: Num.^method().join(' ').say 08:20
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«Method 'method' not found for invocant of class 'ClassHOW'␤current instr.: '!dispatch_.^' pc 410 (src/glue/dispatch.pir:100)␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: Num.^methods().join(' ').say
p6eval rakudo e634b5: ( no output )
JimmyZ rakudo: Num.^methods(:local).join(' ').say
p6eval rakudo e634b5: OUTPUT«WHICH perl cotan atan2 Complex sec log tan log10 cos sin pred Int acosec sinh asinh cosech abs acosech acotan Str asec cotanh acotanh unpolar sech asech atan acos Rat sqrt asin tanh Bool atanh exp cosh cosec acosh succ Num sign␤»
JimmyZ sorear: Is this what you want? 08:21
sorear yes 08:27
I tried that earlier without the local and got a lovely crash #( Known bug ), I was expecting I'd have to fall all the way back to the sources
excellent, JimmyZ++ 08:29
08:29 mssm joined
JimmyZ the codes are in core/*Num.pm or builtins/Num.pir 08:31
sorear hmm, metaclasses don't seem to like ^methods 08:37
sorear goes off and reads some stuff in src/metamodel 08:38
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iay hello 09:09
mathw Hello 09:14
m6locks good morning 09:19
iay hh 09:22
good evening
09:23 krakan left 09:24 krakan joined
iay go 09:24
09:30 lestrrat is now known as lest_away, SJH_ joined
SJH_ I want to help to develop perl6. How can I start? 09:31
iay Me too
what's time perl6 will release? 09:32
SJH_ I don't know. Seems not decided yet
baest have you read the links on rakudo.org/how-to-help 09:33
?
SJH_ Not yet.
iay Not yet
SJH_ I'm reading 09:34
ewilhelm www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi?gsoc if you're a college student
baest Rakudo * is scheduled to be released in April/May. Otherwise, about Perl 6, it's an open question :)
ewilhelm where's the "how can I help?" page for perl6.org? 09:35
sorear I want to *understand* Perl 6 09:36
I think that's a prereq for helping
baest ewilhelm: I don't think the links on that rakudo page is rakudo specific
moritz_ sorear: if you already know how to program in other languages, github.com/perl6/book/ might be a good start
iay where to start?
baest ewilhelm: but yes, it might be good to have that link on perl6.org
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moritz_ if you know perl 5, perlgeek.de/en/article/5-to-6 is also a good start 09:37
m6locks moritz_: i'd say that perl5 to perl6 blogpost is even better ;)
sorear moritz_: I'm a perl 5 occasional corehacker
moritz_ sorear: that's great
m6locks: thanks
sorear I've skimmed through the 5-to-6 stuff but I don't really do tutorials
it would be awesome if there were a perlguts6.pod floating around somewhere... I do better with bottom-up explanations 09:38
SJH_ I am a freshman for perl.
m6locks well then look at the synopsis
ewilhelm baest, yeah, something with low-hanging fruit like spectests and such?
moritz_ sorear: the guts are not part of the spec, and differ from implementation to implementation
sorear checks out the book
m6locks or read the spectests
pugssvn r30022 | moritz++ | [t/spec] tests for RT #69608: nextwidth() when no more candidates are available
r30023 | moritz++ | [t/spec] test for RT #69482: type constraints on arrays leaked to subsequent arrays 09:39
r30024 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fudge meta-class.t for rakudo; test for RT #69322: 4.HOW.HOW
r30025 | moritz++ | [t/spec] test for RT #69320
r30026 | moritz++ | [t/spec] sigils-and-types.t looked rather broken; try to fix it, and fudge it for rakudo
09:39 saschi joined
saschi hello 09:39
dalek kudo: 9786b03 | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
enable passing test files
kudo: 9ef3c7c | moritz++ | src/core/Parcel.pm:
methods ACCEPTS in class Parcel

do; this patch just implements the case where the invocant has no items, which is also known as Nil.
kudo: 04ad775 | moritz++ | build/Makefile.in:
install Test.pir, since we can't load .pm modules right now
pugssvn r30027 | moritz++ | [t/spec] tests for RT #69318
r30028 | moritz++ | [t/spec] remove tests from nil.t that assume that Nil is a type; also change fudging for rakudo
r30029 | moritz++ | [t/spec] tests for RT #69254, role composition can transport inheritance
r30030 | moritz++ | [t/spec] test for RT #69240, &a as a named parameter
r30031 | moritz++ | [t/spec] refudge my.t; test for RT #72328
moritz_ sorry for the flood
saschi np ^^
pugssvn r30032 | moritz++ | [t/spec] test for RT #71514
r30033 | moritz++ | [t/spec] tests for RT #71810
r30034 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fudge names.t for rakudo; test for RT #71194: can call a sub self()
iay so many stuff 09:40
sorear moritz_: not necessarily the perl 6 guts, but seeing how *one* implementation (it could even be a fictional one) works in detail would help me to form a coherent model
09:41 payload left
sorear like how C is defined in terms of an abstract machine 09:41
"this expression gives this answer" doesn't do it for me :/ 09:42
moritz_ the closest thing is probably the meta model in Perl 6
ewilhelm a recent talk I gave for an overview of perl6: scratchcomputing.com/tmp/perl6.2010-02.html
sorear can you tell me where that's kept? 09:43
I've been combing through a rakudo checkout most of today
ewilhelm sorear, rakudo src/metamodel/ClassHOW.pir docs/metamodel.pod
moritz_ and there's docs/metamodel.pod 09:44
ewilhelm also, Moose.pm on the CPAN for a perl5 implementation 09:45
sorear Moose was my gateway drug, I'm trying to understand the real thing :)
09:49 SJH_ left 09:50 yinyin left
ewilhelm as I understand it, moose *is* the real thing, except where perl 6 is able to streamline some things at the language level to take the bumps out of the syntax and eliminate some of the weird cases 09:54
moritz_ ewilhelm: does moose allow different object representations? (ie storing objects by a foreign library instead of as blessed hash)? 09:55
ewilhelm moritz_, I think a blessed thing is kosher, but it might be swimming uphill 09:57
moritz_ lolishazblogged: perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/copenhag...athon.html 10:03
phenny: tell mberends I gave my girlfriend some of these waffels, her first comment was "delicious", and the second (in a quite demanding voice) "more" :-) Thanks again. 10:05
phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when mberends is around.
sorear moritz_: yes, yes, Moose does, I'm trying to figure out how to do something similar in perl6
mostly as an exercise to study the implementations and specs 10:06
moritz_ sorear: see perlcabal.org/syn/S12.html#Construc...ialization 10:08
sorear: iin that case $class.CREATE() would create an object of a different representation
(though not yet implemenetd in Rakudo)
jnthn o/ 10:10
moritz_ has lost one of his bags during the travel home 10:11
jnthn :-(
moritz_ I still have hopes though; I know the train and rough location where I forgot it 10:12
sorear moritz_: How would that work? It looks like the $!foo syntax is hard-coded to the Parrot opaque node code 10:17
moritz_ sorear: probably by some hooks in parrot that override getattribute/setattribute and forward that to an external implementation 10:18
sorear How would a hook like that work? 10:19
moritz_ not sure; that's somethiing you have to ask the parrot devs
sorear mm
jnthn The whole thorny issue of representations isn't addressed yet. 10:22
(In Rakudo) 10:23
All package construction is done through meta-model stuff though.
Representations are kinda less immediately interesting.
10:25 masak joined
masak good morning, #perl6 10:27
sorear hello
moritz_ \o/
masak: just closed a particularly nice ticket of yours, RT #69254 10:28
masak yeah, I noticed. moritz_++
oh! and it's not only no longer an error, but it works? whoa! 10:29
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masak jnthn++! 10:29
moritz_ indeed
masak (note that that's the postfix factorial applied to the regular karma autoincrement... :) 10:30
jnthn ooh, which ticket was that.. :-) 10:32
jnthn just managed to find all the bits of his coffee machine and re-assemble it.
moritz_ increment by one, and return the factorial of the previous karma in void context. How vicious
masak jnthn: rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=69254
moritz_: sink context... :)
jnthn masak: oh, yes 10:33
moritz_ a role that inherits from a class passes that inheritance on to the class it is composed into
jnthn masak: That woulda been a real pain to do in alpha...and with the metamodel re-works in master became trivial.
masak huh. need to study this 'metamodel' thing of yours. seems useful. 10:34
moritz_ :-)
jnthn I always had this dream where I metamodel... 10:36
:-)
10:36 pnu left
masak would listen to a music genre named 'Heavy Metamodel'... 10:36
moritz_ btw our recent discussion about pugs has inspired me to a clean-up action 10:42
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moritz_ the idea is as follows: surely audrey keeps her pugs sources in a repo somewhere 10:43
whereas the pugs sources in the pugs repo are out of date
masak yeah.
moritz_ so it would be nice to remove them, and instead point to an up-to-date repo
(or maybe merge the two)
masak moritz_: maybe privmsg audreyt and ask her?
moritz_ so as an experiment I deleted all pugs specific things from the pugs repo in a local git branch 10:44
masak: I emailed her today
masak oki, good.
moritz_ the result is a much smaller checkout: 98M compared to about 125M
masak \o/
we need to stop thinking about it as 'the Pugs repo'... 10:45
moritz_ aye
it's "the Perl 6 repo"
masak aye.
it's basically STD.pm, the spectests, a number of implementations, and some stale Pugs-biased modules.
moritz_ the README in my branch reflects that 10:46
masak s/some/a quite impressive amount of/
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masak rakudo: say (1,1,{$^a+$^b}...*)[10] # uncovered by TimToady++ 10:48
10:48 pnu left
p6eval rakudo 9786b0: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤» 10:49
masak submits rakudobug
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masak generally, I'm a bit surprised when I find that a type evaluates to GatherIterator. I'd expect something like List. 10:49
10:49 pnu left
masak if GatherIterator our new List? 10:49
rakudo: say (1,1,{$^a+$^b}...*).WHAT
p6eval rakudo 9786b0: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤»
moritz_ s/List/Seq/ please 10:50
masak oh, the error is different from what I thought.
moritz_ this Block thing usually comes from Whatever star not working
it tries to evaluate * as a number
masak rakudo: say (1,2,4...*)[10]
10:50 mikehh left
p6eval rakudo 9786b0: ( no output ) 10:50
masak there's the bug. 10:51
colomon right now there is no new List type
Iterator might sort of be it.
masak 'List' is shorter than 'GatherIterator' :)
colomon and you're trying to do a modern-style series, but those only work on the series branch. :)
masak oh.
moritz_ colomon: is there a reason for doing it in a branch? does it regress on some tests or so? 10:52
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moritz_ I understand that you wanted it in a branch as long as it was not called infxi:<...> but had the name of some helper function 10:52
10:53 pnu joined
colomon I was worried about it regressing, but it probably works well enough to merge now. 10:54
masak would it help if I tried merging locally to see what spectests break? 11:00
colomon I'm trying it right now, but my time this morning is very limited.... 11:01
moritz_++ # blog post and making me realize I'm not the only one who has never been to a perl conference b efore... 11:03
masak blog post? where? 11:04
moritz_ colomon: I've been to one, but not traveled to one, because it happend to be in my home town :-)
colomon hah!
I'm just eagerly awaiting YAPC:NA.... 11:05
jnthn way very happy that moritz_++ came. :-)
It was a fun and productive few days.
moritz_ mabut it was "just" a German Perl Workshop with very little Perl 6 contents 11:07
I do remember jnthn++ implemting grammars in Rakudo in those days :-)
s/^ma/
masak .oO( Look hands, no ma! ) 11:08
jnthn I didn't understand most of the talks, I had to do *something*. :-)
masak jnthn: apparently we should send you to more conferences with talks you don't understand :P 11:09
moritz_ masak: perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/copenhag...athon.html btw 11:12
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masak moritz_: gracias. 11:12
snarkyboojum: oh hai, you're still up? I'm just going to lunch, but I'm happy to have a brief talk when I get back, if you're still here. 11:13
colomon okay, series branch merged. 11:18
and pushed
series still needs significant work, mind you, it's just off on the right track here. 11:19
dalek kudo: 26a9a3e | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/core/ (2 files):
Merge branch 'series'
 11:22
m6locks oh a merge, gotta build my rakudo then 11:23
moritz_ I tried to build after a local merge here, and parrot used up all memory during compilation 11:30
which it did not before
m6locks whoa, that's something
well it's almost a given that parrot needs to be built with rakudo 11:31
i had make complain something about cheats.pir
so i'm going all over with that
moritz_ killall parrot 11:34
sorry about that
m6locks np :)
parrot builds so much faster than building rakudo with parrot, though ;P 11:35
it's a real stress test of my machine to build rakudo, nearly freezes my whole laptop
but i like to run those tests always with a new build to see how it's going :) 11:36
moritz_ same here :-) 11:37
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masak moritz_: at the beginning of one paragraph, there's a single word 'implement' sitting on its own line. is that intentional? 11:43
moritz_ probably not 11:44
masak otherwise, awesome post.
moritz_++ 11:45
dalek kudo: 595ec0e | (Solomon Foster)++ | t/spectest.data:
Turn on basic series test files.
moritz_ masak: did you make any progress on the book?
masak moritz_: apart from the review of half of the grammar chapter on the Tuesday before I left, no.
my mind shut off on the train, so I watched a movie and had nom. 11:46
moritz_ nom++
m6locks nom is good, imma had some now too
s/had/have/
masak when it came back online, I implemented the rest of the Tardis tests.
I seem to be quickly building up a post-conference cold. :/ 12:08
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moritz_ masak: same here - the train from copenhagen to the ferry was icy cold 12:08
jnthn masak: I have one too. :-( 12:09
masak I don't remember being cold anywhere during the journey. but I might have cheated a bit on sleep, tbh.
jnthn Woke up with very sore throat.
I certainly blame mine on sleep deprivation. I did two nights with only a couple of hours of sleep in the days before the hackathon.
masak nod.
boring $work meeting & 12:10
12:10 masak left, cognominal joined
moritz_ offline again & 12:10
m6locks www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsPX0nElJ0k 12:13
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m6locks Files=289, Tests=28314, 1672 wallclock secs (13.91 usr 3.81 sys + 1388.48 cusr 184.10 csys = 1590.30 CPU) 12:39
Result: PASS
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colomon \o/ 12:41
m6locks :)
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takadonet morning all 13:04
colomon o/ 13:06
jnthn morning, takadonet 13:10
takadonet how is everyone doing?
jnthn Slight cold, settling into new country, have a cup of tea and a stroopwafel so all is well. 13:12
takadonet good to hear
We are getting lots of tests back! 13:16
jnthn Yes! 13:18
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PerlJam greetings all 13:53
masak hi, PerlJam! 13:54
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mathw hi! 14:05
jnthn oh hai mathw/masak/PerlJam
PerlJam good $localtime jnthn 14:06
masak hi mathw! do you have a cold, too? 14:09
jnthn It's the latest Perl 6 fashion!
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masak had forgotten how fun it is to have a runny nose :( 14:16
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mathw no I don't have a cold 14:18
but I'm not quite completely well
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mathw my mind is very sluggish today, and low energy 14:18
it appears undentable in any useful fashion with caffeine
masak :/ 14:20
I am currently thinking how to represent pads in a SIC way. 14:21
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masak I increasingly like "assign '$a', 42" and "bind '$a', '$b'". but they completely ignore the issue of pads. 14:22
how does PIR do it?
mathw has been reading about template metaprogramming in C++, which is scaryawesomecrazy 14:25
although the book had a very amusing sentence in it
something along the lines of "Imagine how strange it would be if you could write a function which was only callable if the value of its argument was odd"
arnsholt In Perl 6, we can do that =D 14:26
mathw yup
and my background in dependently typed functional programming leads me to say 'what's odd about that?'
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PerlJam mathw: If that was a serious point in the book, I'd suggest the author(s) are lacking a little experience :) 14:28
mathw Well it's what they said 14:29
They seem fairly familiar with functional programming in general and Haskell in particular
and clearly know C++ inside-out
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mathw Maybe it's a function of addressing an audience of C++ programmers not expected to know anything else 14:30
PerlJam perhaps
mathw But it did make me chuckle
I got a strange look for that
I was reading it on the tram, and I think the person next to me thought it looked far too dry to be chuckled at
PerlJam Is there some easy-ish way to know if a particular bug has had tests written? 14:33
arnsholt Grep for the RT ticket number_
s/_/?
PerlJam for instance, I was just looking at RT67862 and it seems to be fixed, but that RT# doesn't appear in t/spec
:) 14:34
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arnsholt In that case, you'll have to dig in some plausible test files I think 14:37
mathw The other strategy would presumably be to... do what arnsholt typed faster
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PerlJam Of the 338 tickets labeled [BUG], only 64 ticket numbers appear in files in t/spec :( 14:51
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colomon o/ 14:56
takadonet o/ 14:57
colomon hello from Urban Toddler! since my wife is here too, she can watch Henry and I can work. :)
takadonet !!
masak woot! we need all the colomon we can get :) 14:58
PerlJam read that as "she can watch Henry and I work" initially
colomon awww.... blush
he's only 18 months old, he can't handle Perl 6 programming yet.
PerlJam Are you sure? 14:59
colomon give him another couple of years, though.... ;)
PerlJam Have you tried teaching him?
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Su-Shee colomon: he can do vi though. just press escape and let him hit some keys ;) 14:59
colomon he's very good at hitting random keys.
[particle] that's perl 5.
colomon also all the specially marked keys, like the power button.
masak 18-month-olds already have quite an advanced mental parser.
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Su-Shee colomon: the son of a (geek-) friend of mine could start firefox and open his favorite website before he was three. 15:00
PerlJam humans learn gestures faster than symbology (for the most part), so all we need is a gestural interface to produce perl 6 code and Henry can help us out 15:01
:)
colomon Su-Shee: I suspect Henry will have figured out how to launch videos in iTunes before he is three. He loves watching musicians play...
Su-Shee colomon: remove the "suspect" - he just will. 15:02
colomon :)
Su-Shee has seen a super cute video of a bunch of pre-school girls soldering (!) little butterflies which blinked :)
masak Su-Shee: URL? :) 15:04
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Su-Shee I don't remember, sadly. google for "blinky bugs" or "blinken bugs" - it was a father with three daughters or something and the bugs where all fluffy and cutsy and plushy. 15:04
(and an amazing example of what kids/girls can do..) 15:05
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masak could be related to this page: www.blinkybug.com/ 15:06
but I am finding no such video.
PerlJam Su-Shee: why did you separately mention girls there?
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masak PerlJam: because ours is a world where it's uncommon for the kids to be girls in that situation? 15:07
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PerlJam it's uncommon for girls to do amazing things? 15:08
Su-Shee PerlJam: because it was specifically in the context of "girls and technology" and the bugs were immensely girly which was interesting what girls do go for if they start soldering.
PerlJam ;)
masak in a mirror world, it'd've been motivated to write 'kids/boys'.
Su-Shee masak: blinkybug is essentially the inventor I think. 15:09
masak gotcha.
jnthn "it'd've" :-D 15:10
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colomon hmmm, maybe we need Camelia toy soldering kits... ;) 15:11
CokeGod PerlJam: ask yourself why you fixedated on the fact that she happened to mention girls instead of going super generic. 15:12
*fixated
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PerlJam CokeGod: I just thought it curious. 15:12
CokeGod you mean, "one might think it curious". wouldn't want to be too specific. =-)
PerlJam Just like I find it curious that I read masak's sentence just now but the compound contraction didn't seem strange at all until jnthn highlighted it. 15:13
masak it wasn't, until jnthn highlighted it :P
PerlJam (I actually interpolated "it would have" when I read the sentence and didn't even notice there *was* a contraction)
jnthn masak: I've not sure I've seen it before. 15:14
masak: It's completely logical and understandable.
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PerlJam though I'm not sure why Su-Shee is suddenly genderless 15:14
masak jnthn: we talked about I'd'ven't here on #perl6 a week or so ago.
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masak jnthn: and I'dn't've. 15:14
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Su-Shee me what? :) I'm so very much not genderless.. :) 15:15
jnthn I like them.
masak thought you would :)
mathw It appeals in a twisted sort of way 15:16
Why shouldn't we have multi-point contractions in appropriate situations?
colomon wow, lots of kids here today. 15:18
masak colomon: for a while, I thought you meant on #perl6 :P
colomon :p
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colomon it feels really weird to be here and not be keeping an eye on Henry, too. 15:18
PerlJam masak: he did!
we're all young again!
masak PerlJam: were that but true. :) 15:19
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PerlJam as soon as physicists figure out how to reverse that entropy arrow, the time arrow can't be much further behind. 15:20
colomon wonders if his $work code is working or just looping forever more ... hey, it produced results! o/ 15:27
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masak std: y/A-Za-z/N-ZA-Mn-za-m/ 15:56
p6eval std 30034: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Missing term at /tmp/0RuyJiG8fM line 1 (EOF):␤------> y/A-Za-z/N-ZA-Mn-za-m/⏏<EOL>␤ expecting any of:␤ POST␤ argument list␤ bracketed infix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ postfix␤ postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤
.. prefix or term␤ term␤Undecla…
masak ...could use a friendlier error message...
std: tr/A-Za-z/N-ZA-Mn-za-m/ 15:57
p6eval std 30034: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 105m␤»
TimToady hmm
masak ...dashes don't work anymore, do they?
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TimToady STD doesn't care about that yet 15:57
it will eventually
araujo should probably take some time to play a bit with perl6 15:58
masak araujo: definitely. now's the time.
PerlJam everyone should take some time to play with perl6
araujo almost bought a copy of "Mastering Perl" in Chinese to continue practicing
but probably to mix chinese and perl in same book is too much for my brain at this time 15:59
masak, many things moving around these days right?
masak I'm glad the series of blog posts at www.catonmat.net/blog/perl-one-line...part-five/ is being produced, because we can use it as a template for what things Perl 6/Rakudo need to focus on to become good for one-liners.
araujo: yes and no. mostly falling into place.
araujo I see 16:01
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colomon heh. do we really want perl 6 to be good for one-liners? 16:02
PerlJam yes!
araujo hope so :P
araujo is pretty much a one liner 16:03
PerlJam at least as long as the concept of a "command line" is around
one-liners are the bread and butter for unix command line
masak colomon: it will perhaps not beat Perl 5 in every respect, but it's an important area for sure.
s/Perl 5/Perl 5 one-liners/
I'm hoping Perl 6 will develop its own style wrt one-liners. 16:04
and that it'll be relatively painless to switch from Perl 5-think to Perl 6-think when writing one-liners.
colomon I guess I've never understood the appeal. I'd always rather code a five line Perl script than try to cram it all in on the command line.
masak colomon: I'm a big fan of one-liners.
most of my scripts start their life on the command line. 16:05
PerlJam colomon: it's not that you try "to cram it all in", it's that the language allows that one line to flow out naturally.
frettled perl6 -e '@÷≈‘›»—–`≤$…’'
masak frettled: 42.
frettled \o/ 16:06
16:06 frettled sets mode: +oo masak colomon, k23z__ joined, k23z__ left, k23z__ joined
PerlJam and I guess as what masak just said ... once the volume of language gets too big or the flow too unweildy, you transition to a file. 16:07
frettled mm
I often do that with my Perl 5 one-liners. 16:08
masak I threw together 'pun' (the Perl 6 project) so that I could have -p and -n flags before they were implemented in Rakudo. 16:09
unfortunately, I think the project has bitrotted.
jnthn Rakudo is pretty weak on the command line front. 16:10
:-(
mathw I virtually never write one-liners 16:13
the closest I get is throwing stuff at p6eval
PerlJam I write perl6 one-liners for tests all the time. 16:14
occasionally using the repl
colomon hmmm... I love repl / p6eval one-liners. But they're almost always to test the language, not to do something useful. 16:15
BTW...
rakudo: (1, 1, { $^a + $^b } ... 100).perl.say
p6eval rakudo 595ec0: OUTPUT«GatherIterator.new()␤»
masak imagine being able to do a grammar-aware replacement with a Perl 6 one-liner... wow.
colomon darn it.
rakudo: (1, 1, { $^a + $^b } ... 100).eager.perl.say
p6eval rakudo 595ec0: OUTPUT«(1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89)␤»
jnthn Wow. 16:16
TimToady \o/
jnthn Perl 6. Making it easy to fib. 16:17
colomon++
colomon still has a lot of issues to get up to spec, I must admit.
mathw That is awesome
TimToady 万才！ 16:18
colomon rakudo: (1, 1, 1, { $^a + $^b + 2*$^c } ... 400).eager.perl.say
p6eval rakudo 595ec0: OUTPUT«(1, 1, 1, 4, 10, 25, 64, 163)␤»
colomon gotta go now, please find bugs! ;)
16:18 colomon left
mathw colomon++ 16:18
TimToady rakudo: (1,2,4...*)[10] 16:19
p6eval rakudo 595ec0: ( no output )
TimToady rakudo: say (1,2,4...*)[10]
p6eval rakudo 595ec0: ( no output )
TimToady rakudo: say ~(1,2,4...*).batch(10)[^10] 16:20
p6eval rakudo 595ec0: OUTPUT«1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512␤»
TimToady rakudo: say ~(1,2,4...*)[^10]
p6eval rakudo 595ec0: ( no output ) 16:21
TimToady maybe that's trying to eagerify the list
16:21 REPLeffect left
TimToady rakudo: say ~(1,2,4...*).Array.[^10] 16:22
p6eval rakudo 595ec0: OUTPUT«Method 'Array' not found for invocant of class 'GatherIterator'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
jnthn Try .Seq maybe
TimToady rakudo: say ~(1,2,4...*).Seq.[^10]
nope
p6eval rakudo 595ec0: ( no output )
mathw how does it figure out what the lhs implies in terms of sequence generation?
TimToady rakudo: say ~[(1,2,4...*)][^10]
p6eval rakudo 595ec0: ( no output ) 16:23
TimToady S03:1814
more specifically, S03:1896 16:24
mathw aaah 16:26
TimToady and yes, it was considered whether to intuit more serieseses than that, and we decided not to
mathw probably a good idea
since people can always provide a closure
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TimToady eventually fibonacci is just: 16:26
rakudo: say ~(1,1,*+*...*).batch(10) 16:27
p6eval rakudo 595ec0: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤»
mathw yes I liked that particularly
masak that's almost pretty.
mathw * is going to enable some lovely code
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TimToady but I don't think rakudo turns the 2nd * into $^b yet 16:27
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jnthn No, I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen yet. 16:32
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mathw I seem to be spending most of today being amazed by cool programming-language-related technology 16:35
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mathw rakudo: ("' ello " x 5).say 16:46
p6eval rakudo 595ec0: OUTPUT«' ello ' ello ' ello ' ello ' ello ␤»
masak rakudo say [x] ("' ello " xx 5) 16:48
rakudo: say [x] ("' ello " xx 5)
p6eval rakudo 595ec0: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "say [x] (\""␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
masak std: say [x] ("' ello " xx 5)
p6eval std 30034: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 108m␤»
mathw shouldn't that output an empty string? 16:51
obviously 'Confused at line 11' is not so good :)
mathw goes home 16:52
TimToady rakudo doesn't parse reduce ops yet 16:54
so it's parsing it like this: 16:55
std: say [1] ("' ello " xx 5)
p6eval std 30034: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row (preceding is not a valid reduce operator) at /tmp/1y0XBzNXhe line 1:␤------> say [1] ⏏("' ello " xx 5)␤ expecting any of:␤ bracketed infix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ statement modifier loop␤FAILED 00:01
..105m␤»
pugssvn r30035 | lwall++ | [STD] add in a q-like sublanguage for tr/// string parsing 17:02
r30035 | awesomeization of y/// and tr/a-z/A-Z/ messages for masak++
masak \o/ TimToady++ 17:04
class Kitten { has $.flavor }; www.flickr.com/photos/rhodamine/513534092/ 17:05
TimToady obviously not a kitten from her majesty's commonwealth... 17:06
unless british lolcat misspells words americanly... :) 17:08
masak there is that.
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jnthn I can haz Americanisation? 17:10
TimToady you can also haz Aermicanization fail
TimToady has speeling fail 17:11
jnthn I was spelling Americanization the British way. :-P
TimToady I noticed 17:12
jnthn By now, my writing seems to end up being some mixture of the two. 17:14
Unless I make effort to go one way or the other.
TimToady you mean a mixture of the three
jnthn is more likely to write what keeps the spell checker happy than he is to change the spell checker...
masak swimming & 17:15
17:15 masak left
TimToady str: y/// 17:15
std: y///
jnthn
.oO( I hope he's not doing that in sink context )
p6eval std 30034: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Regex missing terminator at /tmp/KV0HFFXnpJ line 1 (EOF):␤------> y///⏏<EOL>␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'y' used at line 1␤FAILED 00:01 108m␤»
TimToady ETOOIMPATIENT
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japhb phenny, tell pmichaud PerlJam tells me he's waiting for your approval on his NQP-rx => changes (allowing quoted strings also, instead of just idents on the LHS) before he snapshots NQP-rx into Parrot. fperrad++ and I are waiting on that feature for some installer magic. Can you take a look? Thanks in advance! 17:37
phenny japhb: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
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m6locks rakudo: say $pi 17:56
p6eval rakudo 595ec0: OUTPUT«Symbol '$pi' not predeclared in <anonymous>␤current instr.: 'perl6;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 137 (compilers/pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:101)␤»
m6locks rakudo: say pi
p6eval rakudo 595ec0: OUTPUT«3.14159265358979␤»
bkeeler_ Hi-diddly-ho perlerinos!
m6locks hi 17:58
17:58 colomon joined 18:01 mberends joined
colomon I'm afraid the fail on (1 ... *)[10] is probably my fault -- I think it tries to eagerly grab the entire series rather than just the first 11 elements. 18:05
diakopter rakudo: say pi//pi 18:06
p6eval rakudo 595ec0: OUTPUT«3.14159265358979␤»
colomon how do you know which pi you got? ;)
diakopter std: say pi//||pi 18:07
p6eval std 30035: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 106m␤»
diakopter rakudo: say pi//||||pi
p6eval rakudo 595ec0: OUTPUT«3.14159265358979␤»
mberends for a while in Copenhagen, pi was weighing in at around 3.8 on beast's computer ;) 18:18
phenny mberends: 10:05Z <moritz_> tell mberends I gave my girlfriend some of these waffels, her first comment was "delicious", and the second (in a quite demanding voice) "more" :-) Thanks again.
18:19 snarkyboojum left
mberends jnthn++ also shares the credit for collaborating on stroopwafels in Arnhem. In fact his talk included class Stroopwafel is Cake { ... } and the Dutch Perl Mongers presented him with a nice box of them :-) 18:22
jnthn Spread the lov^Wstroop! 18:23
mberends jnthn: Perl6/Module/Locator.pm has a little buglet, that I found with module loading. Shall I leave in but comment out some debugging pir::say() statements that were useful in troubleshooting? 18:26
jnthn mberends: oops, did I leave in debug code? :-/ 18:27
Anyway yes, comment them out.
mberends jnthn: no, just some buggy code ;-) I added the debugging.
jnthn oh, I see!
So I only semi-fail. :-) 18:28
Did you manage to patch it?
Anyway, feel free to comment out but leave in troubleshooting code for now.
mberends yes, on balance it's still a big win. Still figuring out the fix, should be ok.
jnthn We'll probably need to hunt a few buglets in that area.
jnthn is glad it's in NQP, so it's easier for @other to fix buglets :-) 18:29
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PerlJam hello again #perl6 19:08
19:10 Chillance joined 19:12 dakkar left 19:15 ive joined 19:19 colomon left 19:24 jonasbn joined 19:29 xomas joined, xomas left, xomas joined
dalek kudo: d07f647 | (Martin Berends)++ | src/Perl6/Module/Locator.pm:
[Perl6/Module/Locator.pm] insert a / between path and filename if the name occurs after a :: separator
 19:31
19:33 SmokeMachine left
PerlJam mberends: doesn't that add an extra / ? 19:34
mberends PerlJam: I took 2 other /'es off to compensate ;)
well, 1 other, old line 19 in github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d07...95d3f8b91c 19:37
the second removal was only out of the troubleshooting pir::say()
PerlJam oh, I see, you just moved the / around following the conservation of slashes principle :) 19:38
mberends a very good principle :)
aka waterbed theory
don't slash waterbeds though 19:39
TimToady leaky abstraction... 19:40
mberends :-) 19:41
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mberends there is probably an opportunity to optimize performance by converting a readdir() to a stat(), but there are likely to be other future changes that make such a minor tweak redundant. 19:42
pmichaud good afternoon, #perl6 19:47
phenny pmichaud: 17:37Z <japhb> tell pmichaud PerlJam tells me he's waiting for your approval on his NQP-rx => changes (allowing quoted strings also, instead of just idents on the LHS) before he snapshots NQP-rx into Parrot. fperrad++ and I are waiting on that feature for some installer magic. Can you take a look? Thanks in advance!
20:00 CokeGod left, SmokeMachine joined
TimToady std: y/// 20:03
p6eval std 30035: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of y///; in Perl 6 please use tr/// at /tmp/YyT4qazDyX line 1:␤------> y⏏///␤FAILED 00:01 106m␤»
TimToady std: tr!a-z!A-Z! 20:04
p6eval std 30035: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of - as character range; in Perl 6 please use .. at /tmp/8MvrkBSBUR line 1:␤------> tr!a-⏏z!A-Z!␤FAILED 00:01 105m␤»
20:04 ShaneC joined
mberends std: tr!a..z!A..Z! 20:08
p6eval std 30035: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 105m␤» 20:09
avar Who's the maintainer of irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6 ? Is it possible to download the complete log in text format 20:11
mberends avar: moritz_++ does it, and he might be willing to do a mysqldump if you ask him nicely 20:12
takadonet avar: and give him coffee 20:13
avar I was pondering making a TimToady bot using Hailo :)
mberends who says it hasn't already been done? ;) 20:14
avar I'd probably know about it :)
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TimToady just make it capricious and arbitrary, and no one will know the difference 20:18
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chromatic I'm working on a series of interviews/articles for next month to promote Rakudo Star on Perl Pub. 20:23
takadonet hey chromatic
chromatic Hello.
jnthn back for a while 20:25
chromatic: Cool. :-)
pmichaud: o/
chromatic I'm looking for answers from people like jnthn, pmichaud, masak, moritz, PerlJam, colomon, and whoever else feels so inclined: nopaste.snit.ch/19918
jnthn chromatic: Can do. Feel free to bug me if I forget. 20:28
(Should be able to do this today/tomorrow.)
mberends chromatic: yes, I feel so inclined, it's a good spread of topics. Where would you prefer submissions to go?
jnthn mberends: Email address is in the nopaste :-) 20:29
mberends ah.
reading fail.
chromatic I hope to get at least a couple of articles out of it around the right time period, but if there's more that's fine too. 20:30
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avar TimToady bot, see if you can tell the difference: hailo.nix.is/ :) 20:39
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TimToady heh, I said howdy. and it complained that my . wasn't concat in p6 20:44
that's so...capricioius and arbitrary... 20:45
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pmichaud looks at answers 20:49
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pmichaud downloads a copy of chromatic's questions to work on answers a bit later 20:51
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PerlJam TimToady: that actually bit me the other day. I was using $s .= $v; and it kept saying something like "method name requires parens" and I kept thinking "why is it carping about a method name? I just want to concat" 20:54
switching out of perl 5 context is hard sometimes
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pmichaud phenny: tell japhb I'm going to to likely revert PerlJam's NQP-rx changes for fatarrow, because it diverges too far from the Perl 6 specification. In particular, the fatarrow rule should only parse identifiers on the lhs, not quoted expressions. (Quoted expressions would be handled by infix:«=>».) 20:54
phenny pmichaud: I'll pass that on when japhb is around.
PerlJam doh! I didn't even think of infix:«=>». 20:56
A little fatarrow myopia there.
pmichaud but more to the point, unless the spec has changed, foo('a' => 'b') doesn't have a named argument. 20:57
jnthn Correct.
pmichaud and the changes made to fatarrow in nqp would treat that as a named argument.
jnthn ouch
Yes, that'd be rather inconsistent with Perl 6. 20:58
I guess they're after a way to :flat :named or some such?
PerlJam and this is exactly why I wanted some non-PerlJam person to look over it :)
lichtkind pmichaud: i was loughing my ass of when reading in parrot quotes the p6objects stands for patrick :)
pmichaud: would you please have a look at www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?parrot and tell me what to add? thanks 20:59
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pmichaud lichtkind: perhaps others claim that, but I don't. For me, "p6object" was always meant to be "perl-6 like objects" 20:59
and I used "p6" instead of "Perl6" to explicitly designate that this was a lightweight version.
jnthn p6object has been serving us well. :-)
pmichaud jnthn: I think they're after a way to have computed named arguments 21:00
jnthn pmichaud: Perhaps best is a cheating form of prefix:<|>, as we used to have in Rakudo.
pmichaud or to have argument naems that aren't identifiers
jnthn The non-cheating version is too heavy for NQP.
PerlJam pmichaud: I think it's hash literals
pmichaud PerlJam: that's possible, but how/where do term:<fatarrow> get put into a hash? 21:01
i.e., what does it construct?
if it's constructing a named argument, that's.... wrongish.
PerlJam pm: sub hash(*%h) { %h }; my %config = hash( "alpha" => "foo", "beta" => "bar" ); 21:02
pmichaud: japhb had a pastebin with something like that in it.
er, s/=/:=/
pmichaud right. In Perl 6, the call to hash(...) there has zero named arguments, so %h would be empty.
(and we'd get complaints about too many positionals to hash()) 21:03
rakudo: sub hhh(*%h) { %h }; my %config = hhh('abc' => 'def');
p6eval rakudo d07f64: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 0␤current instr.: 'hhh' pc 233 (EVAL_1:89)␤»
pmichaud rakudo++ jnthn++
PerlJam I guess we need to back track even further. 21:04
pmichaud we probably need to find some way to make curlies create hashes
that's a bit trickier in nqp than it is in rakudo.
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m6locks umm how do i make a variable name non-interpolating 21:13
PerlJam pmichaud: Here's the pastebin if you have any ideas on how to make it better 21:14
paste.lisp.org/display/96186
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PerlJam m6locks: what do you mean? 21:15
m6locks: you have a $var in a double quoted string and you don't want it to interpolate? 21:16
m6locks aye
PerlJam m6locks: "\$bar is $bar" should work 21:17
or you could do: '$bar is ' ~ $bar
m6locks rakudo: my $bar = 42; say "\$bar is $bar"
p6eval rakudo d07f64: OUTPUT«\42 is 42␤»
m6locks hmm imma use the single quotes 21:18
rakudo: my $bar = 42; say '$bar is ' ~ $bar
p6eval rakudo d07f64: OUTPUT«$bar is 42␤»
jnthn grrr...wish people wouldn't add ability to parse stuff with no actions behind it 21:19
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lichtkind pmichaud: so you found nothing? 21:21
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CokeGod question. if I have : my enum Months <<jan feb mar>>, is it possible to create a type that has those elements as fields? (something like $a.jan = 'foo') 21:36
Tene If there is, I'd expect you'd use something like 'handles' 21:39
jnthn Can't think of a really neat way off hand.
Of course, you can introspect the enum and use the metamodel to build such a type. :-)
.oO( use Enum::Typify; )
 21:40
TimToady
.oO(STD is almost entirely parsing without actions... :)
jnthn :-P 21:41
TimToady: Yes, the issue is more than instead of getting a "oh no, can't parse" error, instead we end up with the AST tree containing a null, followed by a Really Weird Error. Meanwhile, the guy who wrote the patch that made it parse *and* work gets a merge conflict. :-) 21:42
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ash_ so... are IO::Socket::INET possible workable right now? with some pir work? 22:03
jnthn May well be possible to get that back in place. 22:04
mberends ash_: it should not be very different from alpha
ash_ cool, i'll see if i can just port alpha's into master 22:05
jnthn mberends: Your patch broke use/need for me, but I think that's because readdir on Win32 had a bug.
mberends: (Trailing slash on the directory name upset it.)
mberends jnthn: sorry about that, it was spectest clean on Linux :-/ 22:06
jnthn oh, damm
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jnthn also stat returns false on Win32 for "is this a directory" with the trailing / :-( 22:06
Thus why I had it the other way around. 22:07
ash_ is it stat's fault? (is that the proper behavior of stat?)
jnthn dunno
probably a difference between win32 and linux
pugssvn r30036 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Minor improvements to the series tests.
mberends jnthn: there is a case for eliminating readdir() from Locator.pm:19 in favour of stat() 22:08
ash_ support.microsoft.com/kb/168439
on windows, that is the correct behavior i guess 22:09
mberends Rakudo uses only forward slashes; win32 does not mind
jnthn mberends: Why?
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jnthn mberends: We need to look for all the Foo.n.pm variants. 22:09
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mberends jnthn: you're right, only readdir does the .n. part :) 22:10
jnthn I didn't think relying on there being always Foo.pm was wise. 22:11
mberends jnthn++
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jnthn mberends: Just patching Parrot's readdir on Win32 to still work if there's a trailing slash. For now, I'll strip it for the stat calls. 22:14
Not sure what to do, if anything, at a Parrot level about those. 22:15
mberends jnthn: ok, I'll cross check as soon as you commit. It would be nicer if Parrot had a glob() opcode. 22:16
jnthn Aye.
Well, method maybe.
Don't really need stuff like that as opcodes.
There's plenty enough of those already.
ash_ awww, i just got: Sorry, for now you must manually compile .pm modules to .pir (missing for IO::Socket). so, it won't automattically do that for now? 22:17
Tene ash_: That's right, it's still broken.
jnthn ash_: I've got an in-progress patch locally for that. 22:18
ash_ oh, okay, well i can deal with making them .pir, just thought that was odd it wouldn't run a .pm file
mberends it's worth having a little Makefile with perl6 --target and --output options 22:19
jnthn ash_: oh heh. I not only have a patch. I have a *working* patch. :-) 22:20
mberends oooh! 22:21
ash_ omg someone stop him
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ash_ who makes working patches 22:21
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spinclad PerlJam, pmichaud: (in nqp) just a thought, would it be any easier to parse a hash literal { ... } if it began with a keyword HASH{ ... } ? so it wouldn't have to parse { ... } and then decide which it is, block or hash. 22:21
ash_ can you have a hash literal { ... } ? I thought ... was used more as a placeholder for functions 22:22
jnthn That won't make a hash.
{ } will.
spinclad sorry, my ... was metapunctuation
jnthn I think spinclad was using ... in the meta term rather than...right.
ash_ oh 22:23
oops
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ash_ jnthn: have you gotten opcode 'setattribute_ic_sc_p' (setattribute<3>) was not found. Check the type and number of the arguments errors in parrot before? 22:24
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jnthn Yes. And if you're porting alpha code to master and you're using inline PIR, the answer is that you need to add at the top 22:24
.local pmc self
self = find_lex 'self' 22:25
To make it work again.
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jnthn
.oO( If I've guessed this one wrong, I've probably just created epic confusion :-) )
 22:25
ash_ nope, thats what it was, thanks
jnthn :-) 22:26
'fraid we're gonna have to have another PARROT_REVISION bump.
mberends c'est la vie 22:27
jnthn Though it only impacts anyone on Win32.
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dalek kudo: eac348a | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/core/operators.pm:
CHEAT: Directly implement Whatever versions of the most common &infix:<+> and &infix:<-> operations, so that we have them available even though the full Whatever closure code is not done.
 22:28
kudo: 2cdf434 | (Solomon Foster)++ | t/spectest.data:
Turn on series.t.
kudo: 6e6096d | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/Perl6/Module/Locator.pm:
Merge branch 'master' of [email@hidden.address]
arnsholt Do we have any kind of data on what kind of systems people use Rakudo on? 22:29
Or which are the most common, for that matter
PerlJam arnsholt: it's probably a few windows people, a few mac people and a bunch of linux people (with a slight sprinkle of *bsd and other OSes) 22:31
jnthn For Rakudo *, we really should build an MSI for the Windows folks. 22:32
spinclad a mix of 32 and 64 bit, x86/ppc/dunno
jnthn I suspect the vast majority of folks will be on x86.
spinclad arnsholt: (^^)
jnthn With a smattring of PPC, but that's getting rarer now Apple switched to x86. 22:33
mberends yep, azawawi++ is keen to have a .MSI for Padre too
jnthn \o/
arnsholt Good points all
jnthn R*/Perl 5/Padre bundle? 22:34
With Blizkost?
That'd rock.
arnsholt Although it was interesting to see how many Macs were on display in Copenhagen =)
PerlJam jnthn++ x 10
:)
jnthn Heh, I didn't get Blizkost in shape beyond compiling again yet.
PerlJam you can already get strawberry and padre bundled, so you just have to add Rakudo and Blizkost 22:35
jnthn If there's anyone out there with Perl 5 guts knowledge and interested in working on Blizkost, by the way, I'm hoping to ramp it up over the next couple of weeks.
(My Perl 5 guts foo is teh weak.) 22:36
mberends (how hard can it be?)
;)
jnthn mberends: Thanks! Welcome to the team!
;-)
mberends jnthn: are you currently spectesting your Parrot version bump?
jnthn oh f**k 22:37
ash_ Blizkost is your thing that embeds perl5 into perl6 right?
jnthn no, because it segfaulted during the build.
jnthn nukes his Parrot source tree, realcleans Rakudo and tries again.
chromatic What kind of Perl 5 guts fu do you need?
jnthn ash_: s/Perl 6/Parrot/ 22:38
PerlJam jnthn: looks like you've got another volunteer! :)
jnthn chromatic: Fimiliarity with embedding for one. Last time I got some stuff working, but was ending up with the Perl 5 stack pointer getting corrupted somehow.
ash_ does it embed it as a callable language? or as some sort of NCI to libperl?
jnthn ash_: It does for example marshalling args from Parrot callsig PMCs to the Perl 5 stack and vice versa, wrapping Perl 5 thingies in PMCs, etc. 22:39
ash_ got ya, cool
jnthn And an attempt to implement the Parrot compiler library interface so it works like any other Parrot language, from the outside.
chromatic: Beyond that, I guess tying/magic knowledge will come in handy. 22:40
chromatic Magic knowledge... that's deep stuff.
jnthn Since we'd need that - at least iiuc - to be able to have method calls from Perl 5 space back into Parrot to work.
Heh, and there I was thining it was just a bunch of pointer callbacks. :-)
The round-tripping would be nice, but just being able to call Perl 5 modules at all even in the simple case would be cool. 22:41
I did vaguely have CGI.pm working-ish from Perl 6 at one point. 22:42
ash_ so, if you get Blizkost working, are you going to try to have "use v5" switch from rakudo to Blizkost?
jnthn I hadn't considered that... 22:43
Well
Not immediately.
I was more after
use Foo:from<perl5>;
ash_ okay, that would be awesome too, use CPAN:from<perl5>; 22:44
:P
jnthn Right. :-)
If we can get something like that working-ish in Rakudo *, it'll make it a very different offering, imo.
Since it opens up a huge body of existing code. 22:45
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mberends must sleep. good night o/ 22:46
ash_ if rakudo* had open working kinda like perl 5's open then that would be awesome too
jnthn night o/
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lichtkind mberends: good night 22:47
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ash_ constant doesn't work yet, does it? 22:50
thowe Man. It's probably old news to most guys here, but reading some of these Apocalypse docs is a difficult-to-describe joy.
Somebody sent me a funny email today, and I didn't crack a smile (and it was funny). This thing has me feeling like I am staring at the shark tank at the Shed Aquarium for the first time. 22:51
I feel smarter now. 22:52
jnthn :-) 22:53
thowe I gotta get Rakudo back on my home machine. I haven't played with it since January... 22:55
doublec Is there an ffi for rakudo? Some means to load shared libraries and call functions in them? 22:57
jnthn doublec: Yes - it's at an early stage, but we've used it to get a working MySQL client written. 22:58
doublec: See github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/ 22:59
doublec jnthn, great, thanks!
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jnthn phew, after nuking my Parrot tree and getting a new one, Rakudo builds again. \o/ 23:01
ash_ does NCI only work for C libraries? or can i call a C++ library as well? 23:02
jnthn ash_: spectesting patch for using .pm
ash_: Not sure - I guess problem is that C++ mangles names? 23:03
ash_ since C++ does name mangling, i can see why it would be harder to support C++
yeah, i imagine it would be more difficult
jnthn But really I know nothing about C++ in detail.
(Thus meaning I still have a shred of sanity.)
So I'm the wrong person to ask. :-)
ash_ for C you can look at the header file and know the name of the library call you need to make, C++ on the other hand, is compiler dependent for its mangling 23:04
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jnthn Ugh. 23:04
That sounds...tricky.
ash_ i know someone made one for proto at one point 23:05
arnsholt jnthn: There's a reason all the NCI interfaces are in C =)
doublec It's why so few C++ libraries have wrappers in other languages 23:06
ash_ but i think it only worked on unix machines (it was making system calls to unix calls to check the library symbol tables and do some testing for what compiler you used)
s/unix calls/unix commands/
arnsholt doublec: To make it work they probably wrapped the C++ in extern "C" {}
doublec You can use swig to get a C wrapper
23:06 iblechbot left
doublec In Factor a contributor wrote a library that allowed calling C++ by generating a C wrapper that called the C++, compiled it to a shared library, loaded that and called it. 23:07
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ash_ I am working on a project that uses OpenCV (Open Computer Vision) it does image analysis, but parts of it are in C++, there are C calls for most of the C++ stuff, but all the machine learning libraries are in C++, if NCI worked with C++ i'd probably try to do all of my coding in perl6/parrot 23:08
jnthn The lack of a standard way to mangle would seem to make it a very tough cookie.
ash_ github.com/quietfanatic/link-c does that i think 23:09
i have no idea if that works anymore though
arnsholt jnthn: IIRC the standards actually encourage different name-mangling strategies
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jnthn arnsholt: ouch. 23:10
quietfanatic ash_: The main thing it lacks is support for struct objects.
which, I presume, also precludes support for C++ objects.
ash_ probably 23:11
quietfanatic I even had somewhere a working struct model in Perl 6, but my C parser is not robust enough to figure them out. 23:12
japhb PerlJam, pmichaud, jnthn, spinclad: Yes, my use case for quoted string on LHS of => is building hashes in NQP-rx with non-ident keys, since there is no anonymous hash syntax in NQP-rx and I'm forced to hack it with 'sub hash(*%h) { %h }'. Honestly, I don't care what the hack is, as long as it only puts a small amount of extra text at the beginning of the hash construction phrase, and the individual key/value pairs are easy to read. So HAS
phenny japhb: 20:54Z <pmichaud> tell japhb I'm going to to likely revert PerlJam's NQP-rx changes for fatarrow, because it diverges too far from the Perl 6 specification. In particular, the fatarrow rule should only parse identifiers on the lhs, not quoted expressions. (Quoted expressions would be handled by infix:«=>».)
japhb H{ k=> v, ... }, hash(k => v, ...), %{ k, v, k, v, ...}, whatever. Just want something working before I'm back slammed by work and life (only have so much hacking days at a stretch!)
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masak oh hai, #perl6 23:14
jnthn lolitsmasak
masak Damian's Regexp::Grammar really is very cool.
I've been using the debugging feature today.
it was even cooler than I had realized.
jnthn Nice :-)
Would be awesome get that into nqp-rx (and thus Rakudo) some day. :-) 23:15
masak or GGE :)
ash_ quietfanatic: did you try nm + c++filt?
jnthn masak: Or both. 23:17
masak well, yes, it was an inclusive 'or' :)
jnthn :-)
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jnthn Commit fest! 23:18
jnthn pushes
quietfanatic ash_: No. I wanted to have complete C support before working on C++
masak tries to be inclusive, despite worrying tendencies to reinvent the wheel lately
ash_ quietfanatic: if you do that, it should display a section of typeinfo with unmangled names, like: S typeinfo for cv::RowSum<double, double>
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ash_ quietfanatic: thats cool, it might be worth looking into, most unix platforms should ship with nm, so it should work on other platforms that aren't ELF formatted 23:19
quietfanatic ash_: Does it get type info for C programs as well?
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ash_ yeah 23:20
quietfanatic nm, huh?
I haven't heard of it before
I was using readelf
dalek kudo: 73cc9f2 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
Implement need and import, and make use just boil down to calls to the two of them.
kudo: 5faf418 | jonathan++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
Bump PARROT_REVISION to get Win32 readdir fix.
kudo: dab10dd | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Module/Locator.pm:
Fix for Win32 - stat with a trailing / on Win32 doesn't work out so well.
kudo: 69ce6d7 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Module/Loader.pm:
If there's no PIR pre-compiled file to hand, use the .pm instead. Still need to do checks for which is newer, and generating the PIR file if we can haz write access. Also, awesomize module not found error to show any version and authority if they are passed.
jnthn To clarify, "use Foo;" now works even if you haven't pre-compiled to PIR.
m6locks OMG 23:21
masak notices chromatic++'s questions in the backlog.
m6locks need to download immediately
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ash_ quietfanatic: at one point when i saw your project, i started seeing if i could make it use nm instead so it would work on my machine (i am on os x), i never really got it fully functional, but i think it should be possible to do what you did with nm instead of readelf 23:21
masak jnthn++
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jnthn We also for the first time have support for need and import as stand-alone keywords. 23:21
use is - very literally - made up of the two of them.
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quietfanatic ash_: Cool. If you make it work before I do, feel free to fork or something 23:22
ash_ yeah, sure, i might look into it, it would be nice to do my work not in C :p
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masak thowe: for what it's worth, I know *exactly* what you mean with the Apocalypses. I re-read most of them a while ago. 23:26
ash_ i like the Exegesi? (how do you pluralize that word?) 23:27
chromatic Exegeses 23:28
... but I have the advantage of knowing a bit of Greek. 23:29
masak hm. I mostly came online to push a tardis commit, and to see if snarkyboojum was available. 23:30
Exigeses.
right. what chromatic said.
I really should learn that.
snarkyboojum masak: hello! 23:31
masak snarkyboojum: oh hai there! :) 23:33
snarkyboojum: I'm almost unable not to think about Tardis right now. :)
snarkyboojum: I just pushed a little p5 prototype of an extremely simple Perl 6 compiler. it doesn't compile yet, but it can separate correct programs from incorrect ones.
arnsholt ash_: -i is a valid plural for latinate words though =)
masak I'll have to sleep on how to properly serialize the AST into SIC. 23:34
ash_ i don't claim to speak english well, but sadly its the only (non-programming) language i speak
snarkyboojum masak: heh excellent :) what's SIC?
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masak snarkyboojum: it's in docs/plans. basically, it's a simple assembly-like instruction code, a lot like PIR. 23:34
snarkyboojum masak: oic - reads docs/plans 23:35
masak snarkyboojum: I'm increasingly deciding that executing directly off the AST is less than enjoyable.
japhb tardis? 23:36
snarkyboojum masak: too difficult?
japhb Damn, no factbot
masak japhb: indeed.
Tene masak: you might look at POST in PCT
japhb masak, url? 23:37
masak japhb: github.com/masak/tardis
Tene: thanks. I will.
snarkyboojum: yes, essentially.
japhb: besides the one I gave you? :)
japhb masak, lagswap I suspect. :-)
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lichtkind masak: hej 23:37
masak japhb: probably. I'm on a neighbour's crappy connection. 23:38
lichtkind: moin.
lichtkind masak: actually im going to sleep soon :)
japhb masak, and thanks. :-)
Tene masak: Want me to email you my home connection to use? I'm at work, so not using it right now.
masak lichtkind: me too. 23:39
Tene: I don't understand... are you aiming for being understood by saying that?
Tene masak: No, I'm not.
jnthn lol
masak phew. :)
snarkyboojum masak: translating from AST to SIC seems complex too.. ? (naivety on display) or is the translation not needed 23:40
lichtkind masak: i would really like to be there because i fell in love with denmark, but $work you know 23:42
masak has a cold and might not be at 100% performance
asking about whether people are serious sure helps. :P
snarkyboojum: it is needed. that's the step I'm hesitating on right now.
snarkyboojum: basically though, that step will absorb some of the complexity, letting later steps focus on runtime stuff.
snarkyboojum: anyway, I'd love to get together on IRC for a longer hacking session some day.
lichtkind: it'd've been nice to meet you again.
snarkyboojum masak: agreed - let's set up a time :) 23:43
masak snarkyboojum: ok. basics first. it's nearing on 00:00 UTC. right now is ~23:45 UTC, I think.
23:43 ash_ left
thowe masak, Cool. I was starting to feel like I was getting funny looks =P 23:44
masak snarkyboojum: I'm available here-evenings, so between 17:00 and 00:00 UTC at least.
jnthn awesomizes another error
masak snarkyboojum: Friday and Saturday here-evenings work for me. how about you.
snarkyboojum masak: where are you in the world again? 23:45
masak thowe: lately I feel like a Perl 6 historian, because I want to read and write about how Perl 6 used to be, in the early days.
snarkyboojum: opposite form you. :) Sweden.
s/form/from/
snarkyboojum masak: late evening your time works for me 23:46
masak look, a new one! swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp3.html 23:47
snarkyboojum: ok, how about Friday?
that's, hm, tomorrow. 23:48
lichtkind masak: yes but it would be a bit heavy to travel, now that i have more to do and + a course I attend starts, i learned not to do more that 2 or 3 things at once :)
jnthn masak: Technically, it's today.
snarkyboojum masak: friday your time (later today) is fine.. prob early sat for me
masak jnthn: :P
snarkyboojum: excellent.
I'll go to sleep now. need to work on disarming my cold. 23:49
o/
jnthn o/
23:49 masak left
lichtkind o/ 23:50
23:54 nacho left 23:58 [particle] left

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