»ö« | perl6.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, alpha:, pugs:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by lichtkind on 5 March 2010.
lue frettled: good night 00:00
TimToady \o
ruoso calms TimToady by remembering him Math::Symbols wouldn't be in the core
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TimToady Yes, well, horror flicks are optional too... 00:00
00:01 clintongormley left
TimToady but I'll still have to look at all the trailers... 00:01
"This trailer approved for all audiences between the age of 11 and 14." 00:02
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diakopter hundred. 00:03
TimToady I guess that leaves out Columbus... 00:04
oh wait, he *was* the horror show back then...
lue This movie is rated WTHC, for it's utter boringness (must be a documentary or movie involving Rubies)
ruoso std: multi prefix:<∑>(*@items) { [+] @items }; say ∑ 1..10 00:09
p6eval std 30324: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 112m␤»
ruoso rakudo: multi prefix:<∑>(*@items) { [+] @items }; say ∑ 1..10 # lucky guess
p6eval rakudo c41cf3: OUTPUT«12345678910␤»
ruoso not quite as expected... but it didn't die 00:10
rakudo: multi prefix:<∑>(*@items) { [+] @items }; say ∑1..10 # maybe rakudo doesn't like the space
p6eval rakudo c41cf3: OUTPUT«12345678910␤»
ruoso nah...
TimToady looks like a precedence issue 00:11
ruoso rakudo: multi prefix:<∑>(*@items) { [+] @items }; say ∑(1..10)
p6eval rakudo c41cf3: OUTPUT«55␤»
ruoso ahá!
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lue I've been considering a class-based method of handling numbers (arranged like a dependency tree). It would probably exist only as a module, but still... 00:16
ruoso lue, nope... you don't want to think it class-based 00:17
because that's not how math works
you need to think in subtypes
00:18 Logo left
ruoso applying roles is a saner way 00:18
TimToady maybe instead of Top and Bottom the type theorists should have grabbed the Truth and Beauty that were abandoned by the physicists... 00:19
TimToady imagines the billboards: Come learn type theory, where everything is true, and nothing is beautiful! 00:21
lue ruoso: I mean in terms of types. i.e. My Int 3, My Complex 2+5i, etc. However you're supposed to implement types. :) [check the backlogs; it's described in more detail there]
menowthinks I don't want to know about type theory. 00:22
TimToady apologizes for having his brane in sideways today.
sorear <3 type theory
however it has no place in perl6
justatheory loves to type "theory:" 00:23
s/://
ruoso TimToady, oh... so is it a good day for you to understand me ;) since I'm the one usually thiking sideways
TimToady I rather suspect we're out of phase
ruoso heheh
good exit 00:24
sorear We're trying to design a worthy successor to Perl here.
not Haskell With Sigils
lue
.oO(sought Haskell Sith Sigils)
 00:25
TimToady someday I might retire to a monadic lifestyle...
ruoso usually thinks Perl 6 as very innovative in terms of its type theory
it's not even written down yet ;) 00:26
TimToady its innovation is in not forcing it down the user's throat. :)
ruoso we need someone to do research on Perl 6 typesystem and maybe sometime we find out what it is ;)
ruoso not really in a productive da
*dau
*day
TimToady I think we're in phase on that one 00:27
in my case, I blame the backlog 00:28
or maybe the Temporal Lobe epilepsy... :)
lue Oh yeah, for clarity, I need to insert something into the backlog for yesterday. Be right back... 00:29
.oO(I'm back.)
TimToady wait, why is there frost all over my DeLorean?
00:30 xuser left
lue Because it hasn't been used in a while (my ship is the TARDIS, thank you very much) 00:30
lue wanted to fly to Britain yesterday just to watch the new Doctor Who
They have to admit, they couldn't design the DeLorean without it knowing it'd be used in a sci-fi movie... 00:31
TimToady well, but they've known that since some time in the 1800s 00:33
lue
.oO(if the speed of light lets you go forward in time faster 1sec:1sec, then logically speed of dark lets you go back in time faster that 1sec:1sec)
 00:35
TimToady "for one so forward, you're far too backward"
from TROTGTSOTC 00:36
lue chrot-git-sot-k?
TimToady my goodness, google *doesn't know* about TROTGTSOTC! 00:38
ruoso feels a bit less idiot ;) 00:39
TimToady en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Roar_of_t..._the_Crowd
lue The Right of The Great Tim "So Overwhelmed" Toady Command? 00:40
colomon Funny, vaguely familiar with the phrase, but very startled to learn it's a Leslie Bricusse musical. 00:41
and ditto for "Stop the World, I Want to Get Off". 00:43
TimToady I am actually in the small minority of people who have actually helped perform that musical...
(was just in the orchestra)
colomon I was just pondering asking if anyone ever produced it anymore.... ;)
lue Take all the people that have helped with a musical, and it's still a minority ( in relation to the whole planet :) ) 00:44
TimToady I saw a production of it in LA about 15 years ago at, I think, CSUN
colomon Wait a minute (surfing wikipedia) Bricusse did a version of Cyrano with Frank Wildhorn? How did I miss that?
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TimToady obviously, you missed it by a nose 00:47
diakopter flare your nostrils next time 00:49
lue [this is a placeholder to indicate a joke was meant to be here. Unfortunately, attempt to retrieve the joke returned HTTP 501] 00:50
[laugh here]
colomon Correct non-nose-wit answer appears to be that it has only been produced in Japan so far. :\ 00:56
lue Japan++ 00:57
buubot: karma Japan
buubot lue: Japan has karma of 3
lue :O
rakudo: say (* - 1) ~~ * 01:00
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«1␤»
TimToady * is very accepting 01:01
in fact, it's the very picture of a brane that has fallen out and landed on the concrete 01:02
lue rakudo: my $fakereal = (-Inf..Inf); say ($fakereal - 1 ~~ fakereal)
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: ( no output )
lue rakudo: my $fakereal = (-Inf..Inf); say ($fakereal »-» 1 ~~ fakereal) # I can has hyper? 01:03
colomon nope
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: ( no output )
TimToady rakudo: my %h = a => '42'; given %h { when :(Int :$a) { say "lol int" }when :(Str :$a) { say "lol string" } } 01:06
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«lol string␤»
TimToady std: my %h = a => '42'; given %h { when :(Int :$a) { say "lol int" }when :(Str :$a) { say "lol string" } } 01:07
p6eval std 30324: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Strange text after block (missing comma, semicolon, comment marker?) at /tmp/rvy2a97g3U line 1:␤------> n %h { when :(Int :$a) { say "lol int" }⏏when :(Str :$a) { say "lol string" } }␤ expecting horizontal whitespace␤FAILED
..00:01…
lue that's not good :/
.oO(STD is not prone to error. It must be rakudo who's wrong)
 01:08
rakudo: my $ℝ = 3; say "$ℝ is a real number!" 01:14
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«3 is a real number!␤»
pugssvn r30325 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Add tests for <=> on Reals.
lue \o/ 01:16
pugssvn r30326 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Add tests for < on Reals. 01:24
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lue afk 01:43
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pugssvn r30327 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Tests for prefix:<-> and infix:<-> on Real. 02:20
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araujo got qt4 compiled in 1 hour 20 minutes in his new machine 02:56
let's see how goes compiling rakudo
:P
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lue phenny: tell masak it seems like I got into some *cough* trouble changing Temporal.pod on the mailing list. According to perlcabal.org it's unchanged, but in my svn it's still my version. Help appreciated :) 03:58
phenny lue: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
diakopter lue: I didn't see a reply on the mailing list 04:01
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lue Could've been sent to just me. Apparently everyone else who worked on S32::Temporal is supposed to have known more about Date/Time than most software engineers ever will :/ 04:02
diakopter I don't know how you could conclude that 04:03
I mean, I haven't seen a reply from you to the question on the list
lue The guy who sent it to me said that (must've gleamed my email from the pod) 04:04
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diakopter said what 04:04
lue (and I didn't reply, because I didn't download the old message)
(just a second; retrieving)
diakopter I've read the original email 04:05
to the list
I'm saying, I haven't seen a reply from you to the list
replying to the email in which you are asked questions
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diakopter ok, by "that" you meant your previous msg here? 04:06
"Apparently everyone else who worked on S32::Temporal is supposed to have known more about Date/Time than most software engineers ever will
"
lue yes. It was sent to me apart from the mailing list.
"I am writing off-line as it is possible you are unaware of the ramifications of your actions. The changes you made to the spec were copied to the perl6-language list. The changes will not be easily received by the recipients of the list, who may also choose to write to you directly."
diakopter you're saying that the guy who emailed the list said "Apparently everyone else who worked on S32::Temporal is supposed to have known more about Date/Time than most software engineers ever will"
lue It's one Richard Hainsworth. 04:07
diakopter ok, so he's trying to give you advice and do you a favor
by informing you that your changes might get replies, but that you won't receive them in case you aren't subscribed to the mailing list, but that you might get messages from folks directly also 04:08
lue I know, I'm not hating him or anything, just noting to masak that this happened, and wondering what is going on with S32::Temporal (website is the "old" version, my local copy is my version)
diakopter probably it failed to parse as pod
lue I am signed up to the mailing-list, but it was after I commited S32::Temporal. I had no way of knowing. 04:09
diakopter by the update script that updates those synopses as html
lue I thank him for his advice. I don't hate him :)
04:09 colomon left
lue
.oO(I suppose then it's good there was a parsefail (if there was one; I could "compile" it correctly), considering it's going to change again)
 04:10
diakopter I'm just surmising that
perhaps the update script failed another way or is disabled
perlcabal.org/svn/pugs/revision/?rev=30293 04:11
lue The one thing I didn't like was his assumption that software engineers wouldn't know anything about date/time: "You will also discover that they probably know more about dates and times than most software engineers ever will." 04:12
(good thing I'm not a software engineer :P)
diakopter heh
what are you?
lue a very clever person. 04:13
diakopter so by process of elimination, you're "not a software engineer"
that's kindof meaningless
lue I am, but it's not a job yet, only a hobby :)
Actually, I'm not *most* software engineers :) 04:14
.oO(Ah well. Point is, I appreciate his advice. I don't hate him.)
 04:15
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diakopter I'm certain Hainsworth didn't expect his email to be discussed on the public record, but I'll do it anyway: from the tone & content of your commit to Temporal.pod, he surmised that you weren't aware of the individual & collective expertise of the folks on p6l (since you didn't consult them first before committing) :) 04:16
and yes, he was implying that collectively and perhaps individually the mailing list probably knows more about dates and times than you 04:17
but I don't think he meant it in a mean spirit
I dunno
maybe he _was_ offended by not being consulted prior to the commit; who knows :) 04:18
so, I don't know.
lue I never saw a reason to sign up to p6l; therefore, I could not know pugs commits would show up. And, to top it off, everyone on IRC was OK with it :) 04:20
diakopter goes to look at the backlog
lue btw, according to the US gov't, the second you send an email, you give up your right to be protected from search & seizure.
snarkyboojum definitely worth subscribing to the perl6 mailing lists :) 04:21
perl6-all will do :)
lue I am now :) 04:22
(only to p6l though)
snarkyboojum lue: it's good bedtime reading anyway :)
diakopter lue: where's the consensus about irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2010-04-03#i_2189283 04:24
snarkyboojum lue; you want to see all masak++ (bot)'s emails too, surely ;) on perl6-compiler 04:25
diakopter I mean, is it in the irclog?
lue yes, but the OK was given (relatively) yesterday, and then I posted (relatively) today. 04:27
diakopter the commit was more than 48 hours ago? 04:28
lue (OK, wow; I could swear there was something, looking at IRClog)
snarkyboojum so which Temporal spec does this commit map to? github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/361...176792d3c5 04:30
lue The one not-yet-published :) 04:32
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lue certainly not my version :D 04:32
snarkyboojum implementation followed by spec :)
lue diakopter: I could swear I got a clear OK. However, on the last Hitchhiker's Holy Day (UTC), I was discussing my changes, and never got a "STOP! STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP! Don't DO THAT!!" 04:33
irclog.perlgeek.de/out.pl?channel=p...2010-04-02
snarkyboojum www.tondering.dk/claus/cal/calendar29.txt looks very juicy :) 04:34
lue
.oO(Can't wait for the next Holy Day -- Towel Day!)
 04:36
Anyone happen to know what the spec is licensed under? 04:37
diakopter lue: I skimmed that entire day's log. I saw absolutely no discussion/mention of your Temporal ideas
so, there was absolutely no occasion for anyone to respond 04:38
the only mention is "is quietly rewriting all of Temporal to his own design, toning it down so you have a chance of implementing it :)" 04:39
lue Oh well. My memory must be off; I did at least ask questions relating to the "old" spec, and somehow, in my mind, that implies I discussed my changing of Temporal.
I screwed up :)
diakopter ah, oh
snarkyboojum in other news, the status graph is showing some nice jumps recently www.mutteringmadman.com/perl6/status.png 04:42
:
:)
lue chesire smiley! 04:43
diakopter just lost 1 hour to a VS2010RC bug 04:47
snarkyboojum just lost 1 hours to daylight saving :| 04:48
1 hour even
lue I *HATE* Daylight Savings :(
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lue rakudo: macro doit ($word) {return quasi <say <<<$word>>>,<<<$word>>>;>}; doit('one'); 04:54
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "macro doit"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
lue std: macro doit ($word) {return quasi <say <<<$word>>>,<<<$word>>>;>}; doit('one');
p6eval std 30327: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Bogus statement at /tmp/vDBi9SENHM line 1:␤------> turn quasi <say <<<$word>>>,<<<$word>>>;⏏>}; doit('one');␤FAILED 00:03 116m␤»
lue std: macro doit ($word) {say "$word $word";}; doit('one');
p6eval std 30327: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 108m␤»
lue rakudo: macro doit ($word) {say "$word $word";}; doit('one');
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "macro doit"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤» 04:55
lue
.oO(darn)
rakudo: say [X] [<a b c>] xx 3 04:56
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: ( no output )
lue rakudo: say [X] [<a b c>] xx 2
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«a a a b a c b a b b b c c a c b c c␤»
lue why does xx 3 provide no output?
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lue rakudo: say [X] [<a b c d>] xx 3 04:58
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: ( no output ) 04:59
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lue ah well. In every case, good night. 05:03
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Su-Shee good morning 06:32
diakopter hi
moritz_ good morning 06:35
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sorear hmm, looks like Parrot has no concept of metaclass compatibility 07:07
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mathw Morning 07:32
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sorear How does metaclass compatibility work in Perl 6? 07:45
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moritz_ what do you mean by "metaclass compatibility"? 07:59
most things just desugar to method calls on the meta class
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masak morning, #perl6. 08:00
phenny masak: 03:58Z <lue> tell masak it seems like I got into some *cough* trouble changing Temporal.pod on the mailing list. According to perlcabal.org it's unchanged, but in my svn it's still my version. Help appreciated :)
moritz_ hm, maybe the HTML versions are not regenerated 08:01
masak could be.
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masak lue: don't worry about the version in the SVN repo. it'd be beneficial if you did reply to Mark J. Reed's email, though. 08:02
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JimmyZ Good morning, Mai Gao 08:10
masak JimmyZ: \o 08:11
rakudo: multi prefix:<∑>(*@items) { [+] @items }; say ∑ 1..10
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«12345678910␤»
masak how would I make this prefix op looser than infix:<..> ? 08:12
moritz_ in rakudo, or in Perl 6?
sorear moritz_: metaclass compatibility is the property that A.isa(B) implies A.HOW.isa(B.HOW) 08:13
masak moritz_: in Perl 6.
moritz_ sorear: no idea then
masak sorear: why would one want that?
moritz_ masak: is looser(&infix:<,>) 08:14
masak sorear: sounds like 'covariance under the metaclass transformation' :P
moritz_: ah, nice.
moritz_ or at whatever level you want to have it
sorear masak: it's necessary in a lot of cases involving traits... ask #moose-dev for the details 08:16
masak sorear: I'll take your word for it for now.
sorear today I'm trying to design the ability for P6 classes to extend P5 bases
moritz_ sorear: is it worth to add blizkost back to rakudo on the evalbot? 08:19
sorear moritz_: attempting to load additional languages into rakudo-ng causes a crash
JimmyZ rakudo: ( 1, (2+2).say, 3, 4, 5).pick(1).say 08:20
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«4␤3␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: ( 1, {(2+2).say}, 3, 4, 5).pick(1).say
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«4␤»
sorear I submitted a parrotbug but nobody's looked into it yet
#1542
masak JimmyZ: parens not necessary around the (2+2).say 08:21
JimmyZ: that expression will give you 1, most often.
JimmyZ masak: I am making it 'lazy'
masak does not understand how that's 'lazy' 08:22
JimmyZ don't eval 2+2 until I pick it. 08:23
masak ah. 08:24
well, if you put it in a list like that, you still have to .() it manually.
moritz_ JimmyZ: that would be done by lazy { (2+2).say } if it were implemented
masak rakudo: my %h = a => '42'; given %h { when :(Int :$a) { say "lol int" }when :(Str :$a) { say "lol string" } }
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«lol string␤»
masak std: my %h = a => '42'; given %h { when :(Int :$a) { say "lol int" }when :(Str :$a) { say "lol string" } }
p6eval std 30327: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Strange text after block (missing comma, semicolon, comment marker?) at /tmp/rFyy8Ug5Hg line 1:␤------> n %h { when :(Int :$a) { say "lol int" }⏏when :(Str :$a) { say "lol string" } }␤ expecting horizontal whitespace␤FAILED
..00:01…
masak submits rakudobug
rakudo: $_=2;when 1{}when 2{say"oh noes"} 08:25
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<{ }>, couldn't find final '}' at line 11␤current instr.: 'perl6;Regex;Cursor;FAILGOAL' pc 1664 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/Regex-s0.pir:907)␤»
masak rakudo: $_=2;when 1 {}when 2 {say"oh noes"}
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 11␤current instr.: 'perl6;Regex;Cursor;FAILGOAL' pc 1664 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/Regex-s0.pir:907)␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: rakudo: ( { say 'run 1'; 2 ** 100 }, { say 'run 2'; 2 ** 1000 } ).pick(1)().say 08:26
masak .oO( when does it work, and when doesn't it? )
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "rakudo: ( "␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
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JimmyZ rakudo: ( { say 'run 1'; 2 ** 100; }, { say 'run 2'; 2 ** 1000; } ).pick(1)().say 08:27
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«run 1␤1.26765060022823e+30␤»
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JimmyZ rakudo: ( ( say 'run 1'; 2 ** 100; ), (say 'run 2'; 2 ** 1000;)).pick(1).say 08:30
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«run 1␤run 2␤1.07150860718627e+301␤»
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JimmyZ couldn't follow moritz_ :( 08:31
moritz_ JimmyZ: where did you want to follow me? 08:36
JimmyZ couldn't understant 'that would be done by lazy { (2+2).say } if it were implemented' 08:37
understand
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moritz_ lazy { code } returns a value that's lazily evaluated 08:39
so the code only runs when the value is actually used
but it's not yet implemented in rakudo
JimmyZ Yeah.
moritz_ and from looking at your example, I thought that was what you were looking for 08:40
JimmyZ Yeah.
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JimmyZ rakudo: ( { say 'run 1'; 2 ** 100; }, { say 'run 2'; 2 ** 1000; } ).pick(1)().say # Isn't this one? 08:40
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«run 2␤1.07150860718627e+301␤» 08:41
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masak would be nice (and probably not too hard) to make this work under the new DateTime class in Perl 6: use.perl.org/~snarkyboojum/journal/40297 08:42
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mathw o/ masak 08:43
masak (well, we'd need to port DateTime::Format::Strptime)
mathw: \o
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snarkyboojum masak: oh hi there - yeah, that'd be worthwhile I think 08:43
masak snarkyboojum: \o 08:44
snarkyboojum masak: o/ :)
moritz_
.oO( snarkyboojum uses indirect object notation in Perl 5 )
 08:45
snarkyboojum moritz_: whoopsy ;)
moritz_: I probably copied that out of the perldoc :O (no excuse I know)
08:45 agentzh left
moritz_ I mean there's nothing wrong with that, except that I don't grok the rules how it is parsed :-) 08:46
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snarkyboojum moritz_: I updated it anyway :) 08:50
afk& 08:51
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masak phenny: tell lue, "Some of the hardest work [in lnaguage design] isn't making the changes, it's getting them past the maintainers or an ensuing bikeshedding discussion that goes nowhere." 09:02
phenny masak: I'll pass that on when lue is around.
jnthn o/ 09:04
masak: I made it back home! \o/ 09:05
masak jnthn: glad to hear it :)
moritz_ lue: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2010-04-06#i_2199834 there's still this thing called "courtesy" - even if you have the right to publish something, it might not be friendly towards the sender 09:08
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pugssvn r30328 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Couple more infix:<-> on Real tests. 09:29
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mberends whispers masak: ping from the classroom ;) 09:58
masak mberends: pong from the office :)
mberends shh! 09:59
( before enabling the DateTime in Makefile.in and spectest.data, I wonder whether the whole Temporal naming should be changed to DateTime. ) 10:00
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masak mberends: aye, that's probably a good idea for two reasons. 10:02
(1) less pompous
10:02 proller left
masak (2) indicates a clean break from previous stuff 10:03
mberends likes *both* reasons
moritz_ I'm mostly out of touch with Temporal/DateTime...
mberends (3) frees up Temporal for some really fantastic modules
masak :)
(4) consistency with the class name and namespace 10:04
moritz_ I just hope that time() is supposed to return an Instant (or whatever it's called these days)
masak moritz_: yes, I think it will eventually.
moritz_ and not an epoch or so
and that the object stringifies sensibly
masak moritz_: right now I have it spec'd as in Perl 5, but I think Instant is wiser.
10:04 proller joined
moritz_ I haven't heard a good reason to return a number 10:05
mberends also, let's keep the DateTime out of Makefile.in until it is more rounded out and in sync with S32
masak agreed. 10:06
moritz_ -1 # I want to experiment with it on p6eval :-)
mberends boo hoo!
masak moritz_ has a point. 10:07
it's kinda fun to play around with :)
jnthn +1 to that
mberends 2 days should be enough to anneal it for online testing
masak moritz_: I'd like DateTime.now to create an object representing the current date and time. it has to do this from information returned by time() or equiv.
moritz_: whether time() then returns a number or an instant is not too important to me. 10:08
aye. give us two days.
moritz_ offers 5 hours :-))
jnthn offers another 43
;-)
masak phew :)
mberends feels prodded
moritz_ masak: I tink there can be a more low level funtion with a longer name 10:09
masak moritz_: I'll do it in five hours, but I'd have to bill you :)
jnthn epoch() :-)
moritz_ I just want to cater to user expectations
mberends there are from_epoch() and to_epoch() already
masak I'm not too happy about calling 'the number of seconds since the computer epoch' just 'epoch' :/
moritz_ and from reading perlmonks I see that lots of people call time(), even if it's not the best function to use 10:10
masak aye
moritz_ then call the low level function seconds_since_start_of_epoch() and discourage its use by having a long name :-)
jnthn now() would be kinda nice
hejki yup
or today()
masak people will always do things on a plumbing level if we don't put appealing SYNOPSIS examples in their way :)
hejki obv. being != than now() :>
jnthn Well, now() better captuers the time componenet too.
masak hejki: we haz today() :) 10:11
hejki oh we do
i'm such a bunch of noobdom
moritz_ kinda links Date::Simple on CPAN
masak hejki: in the unpublished draft, I mean.
hejki ahh ok
:>
moritz_ hejki: don't worry, we all are :-)
masak moritz_: I'll have a look at that, then.
moritz_ it's dead simple date-only arithmetics 10:12
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moritz_ today() - date('2010-01-01') # number of days since first of January 10:13
JimmyZ Will Perl6 support 'use Foo as bar' syntax which likes python?
moritz_ today() - 1 # yesterday's date
masak lunch & 10:15
mberends moritz_: nice, but how would you implement that? custom infix:<-> ? 10:16
moritz_ mberends: sure
it just takes all integers as duration in days 10:17
lunch&
Juerd JimmyZ: How can syntax like Python?
or anything.
JimmyZ There is a modlue with looooooong mame, and I want give it an alias. 10:19
s/modlue/model/
mberends JimmyZ: that's possible, in S11
but not in the roadmap for Rakudo * 10:20
Juerd still doesn't understand how that likes Python :)
pmurias Python is so cute, surely everything likes it ;) 10:21
Juerd JimmyZ: Did you mean "syntax like Python" instead of "syntax which likes python"? 10:22
JimmyZ Yeah, poor English
mberends pythons like parrots. for breakfast.
JimmyZ mberends: I couln't find it. 10:23
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Juerd JimmyZ: That's okay. It just took a while for me to understand that you meant something different :) 10:24
JimmyZ Juerd: :( 10:25
10:25 cosimo joined
Juerd s/':('/:)/ 10:25
JimmyZ So how could I give it an alias?
Juerd Have you read S11?
p3rl.org/S11
JimmyZ Yeah 10:26
import_realias ?
Juerd Can't say I can find it in S11, though 10:27
jnthn use Pivo:name<Beer::Slovak>;
Where :name is the real name to look up.
Juerd Ah, :name
jnthn Don't think we'll support it in R* though. 10:28
Juerd Is whitespace allowed before the :?
jnthn afaik no
std: use lol_module:ver<42>;
p6eval std 30328: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Can't locate module lol_module:ver<42> at /tmp/7nzSOfSMPF line 1:␤------> use lol_module:ver<42>⏏;␤ok 00:01 107m␤»
jnthn std: use lol_module :ver<42>;
p6eval std 30328: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Can't locate module lol_module at /tmp/9KopHMmljN line 1:␤------> use lol_module :ver<42>⏏;␤ok 00:01 106m␤»
jnthn Oh, it seems it copes. 10:29
rakudo: use Test;
Juerd Foo:name<Bar> looks so compressed :(
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: ( no output )
jnthn rakudo: use Test:ver<42>;
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«Unable to find module 'Test' with version '42'.␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6;Module;Loader;need' pc 34820 (src/gen/role_pm.pir:807)␤»
jnthn rakudo: use Test :ver<42>;
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "use Test :"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
Juerd :(
Juerd did not mean to confuse Rakudo
jnthn I thought I'd followed STD there, fwiw. 10:30
So not sure why Rakudo and STD have different views.
JimmyZ use Whiteness:from<perl5>:name<Acme::Bleach>:auth<cpan:DCONWAY>:ver<1.12>;
jnthn Yeah, that's teh reference in s11.
JimmyZ std: use Whiteness:from<perl5>:name<Acme::Bleach>:auth<cpan:DCONWAY>:ver<1.12>;
p6eval std 30328: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Can't locate module Whiteness:from<perl5>:name<Acme::Bleach>:auth<cpan:DCONWAY>:ver<1.12> at /tmp/XJM3DAIEzM line 1:␤------> me::Bleach>:auth<cpan:DCONWAY>:ver<1.12>⏏;␤ok 00:01 105m␤»
JimmyZ std: use Thread.pm; 10:31
p6eval std 30328: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at /tmp/EZhQ30JfJi line 1:␤------> use Thread⏏.pm;␤ expecting statement_control__S_064use␤Other potential difficulties:␤ Can't locate module Thread at /tmp/EZhQ30JfJi line 1:␤------> use
..Thread⏏.pm;␤F…
JimmyZ std: use Thread;
p6eval std 30328: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Can't locate module Thread at /tmp/UR3iDakMhd line 1:␤------> use Thread⏏;␤ok 00:01 105m␤» 10:32
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mberends phenny, tell masak forgot to mention a very important reason to identify Perl 6 modules on CPAN with a "6" name: to avoid having Perl 5 users stumble into them unintentionally. 11:30
phenny mberends: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
masak mberends: I don't really see a qualitative difference between that and Perl 5.6 users stumbling on a 5.10 module unintentionally. 11:40
phenny masak: 11:30Z <mberends> tell masak forgot to mention a very important reason to identify Perl 6 modules on CPAN with a "6" name: to avoid having Perl 5 users stumble into them unintentionally.
moritz_ masak, mberends: as a courtesy to Perl 5 users all Perl 6 modules on CPAN should prevent indexing of all their files with a suitable META.yaml 11:41
masak good point.
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takadonet1 morning all 12:06
12:06 takadonet1 is now known as takadonet
moritz_ rakudo: my $; 12:09
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«Malformed my at line 11, near "$;"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
masak takadonet: \o
moritz_ std: my $;
p6eval std 30328: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of $; variable; in Perl 6 please use real multidimensional hashes at /tmp/QTWBjtp5dw line 1:␤------> my $;⏏<EOL>␤FAILED 00:01 108m␤»
jnthn o/ takadonet
moritz_ std: my ($);
p6eval std 30328: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 107m␤»
moritz_ rakudo: my ($);
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: ( no output )
moritz_ rakudo: say my ($); 12:10
jnthn If anyone wants to put the special variable obsolecense warnings into Rakudo from STD, feel free, btw. It's LHF.
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say \my ($);
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«Capture()<0x5557b80>␤»
bbkr rakudo: $_="a"; $_ R~= "b"; # hmm, counterintuitive... i expected $_ to be "ba"
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to readonly value␤current instr.: '&die' pc 17293 (src/builtins/Junction.pir:404)␤»
jnthn bbkr: Precedence bites. :-) 12:11
bbkr: [R~]= probably is what you want.
bbkr rakudo: $_="a"; $_ [R~]= "b"; say $_;
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "$_ [R~]= \""␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
jnthn std: $_="a"; $_ [R~]= "b"; say $_; 12:12
p6eval std 30328: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 107m␤»
jnthn bbkr: We still need to do that in Rakudo yet.
bbkr ok, thanks for clarification jnthn
jnthn In theory it shouldn't be too hard.
:-)
jnthn -> nom shop 12:14
takadonet 3m 26 second build time :) 12:19
wow
mathw nice
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snarkyboojum yeah, I can almost remember what I was doing between builds now :) 12:41
moritz_ oh, it's quite simple - after a finished spectest run I just look into 'git diff'
and if there are changes, I usually remember why I did those, and commit if the tests passed :-) 12:42
snarkyboojum :)
colomon funny, I usually commit before I run the spectests. 12:45
that way, if the spectest works, all I need remember to do is "git push" 12:46
moritz_ I sometimes do that too 12:47
but I don't like to git reset or git rebase all that often if I find that my changes didn't work after all 12:48
colomon sure, I only do that after the exploratory phase of development. 12:49
snarkyboojum wow, I just did a git pull, and a successful build and my ./perl6 is broken :(
get 'Could not find sub !YOU_ARE_HERE' no matter what I run or how I run it
masak I find I do 'git reset --hard' quite often nowadays. I also have a tendency to do 10-minute experimental branches.
takadonet wow 1400 test failed.... 12:50
moritz_ snarkyboojum: did you reconfigure rakudo?
jnthn snarkyboojum: You did re-con...yes, that.
snarkyboojum mortiz_: just doing that now
jnthn My commit message even said to. ;-)
snarkyboojum moritz_ even 12:51
moritz_ :-)
snarkyboojum oh! commit messages!
moritz_ snarkyboojum: just mo<tab> for you :-)
snarkyboojum moritz_: my goodness you're right :) heh
jnthn I should start putting jokes in my commit messages so people read them. ;-)
moritz_ oh wait, that's ambiguous, at least in my irssi
snarkyboojum jnthn: I just read the code in your commits, not the messages :P
moritz_ jnthn: but then you couldn't hide your passwords there... oh wait, that was README, a totally different matter :-) 12:52
snarkyboojum (and obviously don't understand much)
masak .oO( is the IRC equivalent of 'first-name basis' writing out someone's nick in full instead of tabbing it? )
jnthn snarkyboojum: Well, the message tells you what the code is menat to do, the code tells you what it actually does. ;-)
snarkyboojum I can't believe I've been writing out names in full all this time :|
jnthn: yeah, I'm not very clever eh? :) 12:53
moritz_ snarkyboojum: a surprising number of people don't know about this convenient feature of most IRC clients
snarkyboojum: in particular I've told Tim Bunce (father of perl 5's DBI module) about it, and it was news for him :-)
jnthn masak: yes, but if you don't type enough letters you get the wr...oh my. 12:54
:-)
snarkyboojum moritz_: weird how the context switch happens between different apps - if I was running an IRC client in a shell I'd be tab-happy by default
12:54 frettled sets mode: +o masak
mathw ah yes, the #perl6 tab-completion nightmare 12:56
all these people who begin with m
jnthn The nickspace is crowded in m. 12:57
colomon and the damned co-s
frettled better just to say:
moritz_ mathw: all these people beginninig with 'ma' even
frettled Hey, dude. Don't make it bad. Take some sad code, and make it better.
twigil hello everyone! I learnt about GSoC deadline just today. Is it too late to try to apply? 12:58
masak gee, I hope not :)
masak should really sit down and write that application
moritz_ twigil: it's only too late when the deadline closes :-) 12:59
mathw skribu!
pmurias masak: what will you apply for? 13:01
what i meant what is your application about?
moritz_ twigil: what are you interested in?
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twigil moritz_: I looked through the list of perl 6 projects for 2010. contributing to test suite looks pretty interesting for me 13:03
masak pmurias: I'd like to work either on Rakudo or on the spectests. haven't decided yet.
moritz_ twigil: cool
masak if twigil takes the test suite, maybe I'll focus on Rakudo :)
moritz_ twigil: also if you want to write Perl 6 code, Rakudo is mostly written in perl 6 these days (or subsets thereof)
heh :-)
jnthn \o/
masak it be fun, and a bit fitting, to focus on closing RT tickets. but I don't know if it's concrete enough. 13:04
and it's a bit hard to make concrete, because RT keeps changing around.
moritz_ masak: nah, you'd have to come up with a concrete topic and schedule
jnthn masak: Didn't you want to focus on static anal?
moritz_ anyway, whoever works on the test suite is likely to be stuck with me as a mentor :-) 13:05
jnthn Or other such thingies? Or gone off that idea? :-)
moritz_ masak: you could implement named enums as the first step of your gsoc project :-)
masak jnthn: I'll focus on static analysis regardless. maybe if you tell me about the possibilities of it in Rakudo, I can write something up.
moritz_: no, actually I couldn't :( 13:06
snarkyboojum is the plan to make Temporal understand time zones like 'Australia/Sydney'?
masak moritz_: I'm currently blocking there, with no realistic way to unblock without help.
snarkyboojum: not in itself, no.
moritz_ masak: then get help :-)
masak jnthn: help! :)
snarkyboojum masak: bugger - I liked that about Perl 5 DateTime 13:07
jnthn masak: Yeah, I know, I still need to do Stash
:-)
masak snarkyboojum: things having to do with 'words' of some sort are exported to modules.
snarkyboojum: same goes for 'January' and 'Tuesday'.
snarkyboojum: it's a bit narrow, but it's a simple line to draw.
and we can always extend it if it turns out to be safe to do so.
jnthn The good news is that there's already a module for November.
masak :P 13:08
I just don't want to start with too much. better to build up from below than to tear down.
snarkyboojum so you'd need to lookup a timezone using 'Australia/Sydney' using a different module, and then plug that in at contruction time?
masak or load a module and use the string.
moritz_ masak: so you also postponed your plans to parse dates in ISO-$something formats? 13:10
hey
speaking of GSOC
and masak
and temporal/datetime
snarkyboojum :)
moritz_ masak: don't you want to make *that* part of your gsoc project? :-) 13:11
masak no :)
I've retreated a bit there, I think.
it parses ISO8601, but only the full date/time form.
maybe I should sign up for finally implementing Buf, including reading binary files etc. 13:12
snarkyboojum masak: is there a current Temporal POD somewhere I can have a read of?
mathw masak: that would be interesting 13:13
jnthn masak: That'd also be an excellent project.
mathw or if you feel ambitious, how about a concurrency framework with STM? :)
moritz_ mathw: that would be *very* ambitious, given that parrot doesn't support any concurrency in connection with HLLs 13:14
snarkyboojum something along the lines of gist.github.com/355664 I guess?
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mathw moritz_: I did say 'if you feel ambitious' :) 13:15
moritz_ btw <www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=832796> (Perl 5, but about language extensions, so maybe of some small interest here)
masak snarkyboojum: this is what I have so far: gist.github.com/356555
snarkyboojum: please don't consider it official or done in any way, shape, or form. 13:16
two more days, and it will be.
snarkyboojum masak: cheers!
masak++ :)
masak lue++ mberends++
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pmurias ruoso: hi 13:21
snarkyboojum :timezone defaults to +0000 now (though I'm sure that'll get picked up) 13:23
masak indeed. 13:25
that's a change I already had planned to put in.
snarkyboojum cool stuff :) 13:27
it's quite amazing to watch the pace of Perl 6 development
so much going on 13:28
masak we're eager to reach the future :)
snarkyboojum and I guess Temporal will tell you when you get there etc :P awesome
snarkyboojum is sure all the Temporal jokes have been done to death 13:29
:)
jnthn Yeah, we don't have time for them any more. 13:30
snarkyboojum :D
masak luckily, we're probably changing the name of the module. :) 13:31
we're adding three more dimensions, and calling it SpatioTemporal.
masak hides
jnthn Now, wait a minute... 13:32
masak did you mean: 'wait a meterminute'? 13:33
jnthn
.oO( I'd be more interested if I metadate... )
 13:34
masak what's that? two dates going on a date together?
pmichaud good morning, #perl6 13:37
colomon o/
moritz_ \o/
jnthn hi, pmichaud! o/
13:37 moritz_ sets mode: +oo pmichaud colomon
pmichaud oops, afk for a bit 13:38
masak hi, pmichaud 13:39
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slavik w00t 13:44
13:45 dalek left
pmichaud back again, briefly 13:48
mathw o/
13:50 colomon_ joined
ruoso hi pmurias 13:50
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colomon_ rakudo: role Animal { multi method speak() { "quiet"; }; }; class Dog does Animal; say Dog.new.speak 13:51
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«quiet␤»
colomon_ :\
13:52 colomon left, colomon_ is now known as colomon
colomon rakudo: role Animal { multi method speak() { "quiet"; }; }; class Dog does Animal {multi method speak() { "woof" }}; say Dog.new.speak 13:52
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«woof␤»
colomon :\
jnthn Yeah, roles + multi-methods = not really done yet.
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jnthn (that should die due to ambiguity) 13:52
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colomon really? how can Dog's speak override Animal's, then? 13:54
(and locally I'm getting get_attr_str() not implemented in class 'Perl6MultiSub' when I try this sort of thing.)
jnthn colomon: Only works that way because of multi 13:55
Maybe there's some canonicalization rule that we'd go on in the future.
masak spectested; got a couple of failures in t/spec/S06-multi/syntax.rakudo 13:56
jnthn But certainly the alpha semantics were that you can all multi candidates from the class and the role.
moritz_ masak: yes, they are there since Saturday nigth or so
colomon jnthn: in general I'm getting really weird results here. may just be too tired to code. 13:57
jnthn colomon: If you're doing anythign to do with roles + multis all bets are off. 13:58
masak moritz_: oh, ok.
jnthn I've done just about nothing there.
Anything that works atm is by accident. 13:59
PerlJam (happy accidents)++
good morning btw
masak PerlJam: \o 14:00
m6locks good afternoon
PerlJam was summoned to be part of a jury yesterday. 14:01
Sat all day and was never called.
14:01 ignacio_ left
PerlJam But, they said I'm not off the hook until Wed @ 5pm 14:01
moritz_ bah, doesn't sound like fun 14:02
and let me guess, you're not allowed to reject the call
PerlJam sitting all day in a room full of several hundred people was not at all fun.
moritz_: I don't qualify for any of the exemptions. 14:03
moritz_ you need a music player, a laptop, a good book and thing to eat and drink
mathw bah 14:04
pmichaud afk again for a while :-\
masak moritz_: kuro5hin makes it sound like there are ways: www.kuro5hin.org/story/2008/9/8/0245/12132
mathw I imagine jury service is much more interesting if you actually get to be on the jury
PerlJam I guess this is karma or something though. I haven't had a jury summons since I was in college (about 17 years ago)
moritz_ masak: probably depends on the legislation 14:05
mathw I've never had one
...yet
I'm about as eligible as you get though
PerlJam while I was in there with the other cattle, I found that some people had been summoned multiple times within a years
s/years/year/
mathw irritating
fortunately if they did decide to summon me and they did the sensible thing and got me in my local courts, it's just about as easy as getting to the office 14:06
but it'd likely end up being massive hassle
and lots of boring
PerlJam definitely lots of boring
mathw PerlJam: did lots of other people end up doing nothing all day too?
PerlJam like I said, there were several hundred people in the room with me. 14:07
about 1/3 thought ahead enough to bring something to do
mathw several hundred?
man
how many juries did they need? 14:08
PerlJam They formed 3 panels of 100 people, 1 of 80, 2 or 3 of 60, and a small one of 20 (that's all I noticed, I may have missed one or two panels) 14:09
The very first group of 100 people got to leave after about 3 hours of sitting around. 14:10
The rest of us weren't as lucky
mathw :(
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moritz_ hopes that IO is scheduled more efficiently than prospective jury members 14:11
PerlJam Hrm. Not that many student proposals for GSoC this time around. 14:16
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pmichaud I went for several years w/o ever being summoned for jury duty. Then I was called as an expert witness in several cases protesting the computer algorithm used to select juries. After my testimony, the county immediately changed their jury selection software, and I was called to jury duty the following year. 14:17
(the computer software used for jury selection was laughably bogus) 14:18
masak .oO( .pick(*) )
takadonet ...
mathw rofl 14:19
jnthn wow!
pmichaud the team that created the jury selection criteria thought that hash pools were sufficient to randomize the candidates 14:20
they also thought that wall clock time (1-second resolution) was a good source of entropy for generating random numbers 14:21
mathw it's... *slightly* better than no entropy at all
pmichaud note: not for seeding a random number generator.... for actually generating the random numbers
mathw oh
oh dear 14:22
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pmichaud given that the program was processing approximately 100 "random" entries per second... 14:22
jnthn wtf.
That's...such a fail.
masak I've done that. but it was millisecond resolution, and it was only for randomizing banners on pages :)
pmichaud that meant that 100 "random candidates" were all being selected based on the same wall clock time
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mathw so you'd get Patrick Michaud, and Paul Michaud, and Peter Michaud all at once! 14:23
jnthn
.oO( If I can make this guy late to work, I don't have to do jury duty! )
mathw
.oO( If I cut off the power for just the right amount of time, I can make my neighbour do jury duty and rob his house while he's out)
 14:24
pmichaud mathw: something like that, yes. The trial attorneys knew something was up when they started seeing jury pools where everyone knew each other already (because they had served on a jury together the previous year :-)
mathw that would tend to give it away
I imagine it was more likely to clump SSNs or something
pmichaud worse than that, even 14:25
the records were loaded into the database based on voter registrations
PerlJam pmichaud: I think their randomness is still highly suspect. There were a couple of ladies chatting behind me who had both been called for jury duty last month.
pmichaud and the source file of the voter registrations was alphabetical by last name
so people were being clustered together by last name. It wasn't quite as obvious as there being a bunch of people with the same last name on the jury, because the hash pools did distribute things somewhat 14:26
mathw That is awful 14:27
PerlJam unless perhaps being called but not selected puts you on the short list for getting called again ... (randomly :)
moritz_
.oO( ... )
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pmichaud PerlJam: same courts? It wouldn't surprise me if they were called for federal jury duty and then state/county 14:27
moritz_ even microsoft can't properly randomize lists :-) 14:28
pmichaud oh, and here's the other funny part
moritz_ (re: browser choices in random order in EU countries)
pmichaud let's say we have a set of jurors: Alice, Bob, Carol, Donald
PerlJam pmichaud: yep, same courst
pmichaud and the algorithm picked "Bob" for jury duty
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pmichaud if Bob was flagged as ineligible for duty, then the program simply moved to the next available candidate after Bob 14:29
in this case, if Bob was ineligible for duty, then Carol became twice as likely to be chosen as Donald
moritz_ so if you had a huge clan of ineligible people with the same last name
sbp so if you have a load in a row who were ineligible, the poor person after would have an Nx greater chance of being picked?
ouch
pmichaud yes 14:30
CokeBot9000 woof.
I bet they use the same software out here. =-)
moritz_ they knew *nothing* about statistics, did they?
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moritz_ sounds like the software was written by the cousin of the president of some court 14:31
how knew a bit about visual basic 14:32
pmichaud no, the authors were just clueless
it was _very_ interesting to watch the county information officer defend the system
[particle] is that texas justice?
pmichaud the county of course wanted to be very careful, because they didn't want to be re-trying a year's worth of cases based on jury bias 14:33
moritz_ thinks it's a good sign that pmichaud++ has the leisure to rant about non-working PRNGs :-)
pmichaud alas, it's a false leisure 14:34
PerlJam moritz_: either that or it's an escape mechanism
moritz_ :/
pmichaud what it really means is that I had about 15 minutes while the physical therapist was here in which I could sit and chat
she's gone now, and I need to do a few things with Paula again :-)
moritz_ then wish her the best of luck (even though I never met her) 14:35
pmichaud but yes, things are slowly-but-surely getting better around here, so that I should have more time to sit in front of the computer
(alas, more "slowly" than "surely", but at least headed in the correct direction)
CokeBot9000 pmichaud: best wishes to Paula. 14:36
pmichaud CokeBot9000: Thanks. :-)
slavik CokeBot9000: you deal coke?
pmichaud afk again -- bbl 14:37
masak pmichaud: yes, thinking of you and Paula a lot here. best wishes. 14:38
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dalek kudo: c06062d | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/core/ (3 files):
Add Numeric.log10 which simply calls self.log(10) -- remove resulting unneeded log10s from Complex and Num.
 14:47
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masak colomon++ 14:48
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CokeBot9000 slavik: no. 15:01
slavik :(
mberends \o travel Arnhem -> Amsterdam.pm! :-)
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m6locks rakudo: class A { has $.avg; multi submethod BUILD(Num @a) { my $a = 0; for 1..@a.elems -> $i { $a += @a[$i] }; $.avg = $a / @a.elems; }} my $b = A.new((1,2,3,4)); say $b.avg 15:04
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "class A { "␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
15:05 sorear left
jnthn need ; before the my 15:05
moritz_ there's an easier way to calculte the average :-) 15:06
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moritz_ rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3; says ([+] @a) / @a 15:06
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &says␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
moritz_ rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3; say ([+] @a) / @a
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«2␤»
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m6locks my point was to demonstrate that BUILD won't instantiate with array 15:06
or at least my copy of rakudo does not do it ;PP
moritz_ m6locks: there are several things that won't work in your script
one is that you think arrays are 1-indexed 15:07
the second is that if you want to pass positional arguments to a construct, you have to write a custom .new method, not a BUILD method
m6locks oh ok
[particle] my irc client thinks 1..@a.elems is an email address
moritz_ m6locks: perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/object-c...ation.html 15:08
m6locks thanks, will check it out
BUILD worked with some named parameters that were not arrays
but i think i'll write a new method 15:09
moritz_ rakudo: class A { submethod BUILD { say "yes" } }; A.new
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«yes␤»
moritz_ rakudo: class A { submethod BUILD(:@b { say ~@b } }; A.new(:b[3, 4, 5]) 15:10
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«Malformed method at line 11, near "BUILD(:@b "␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
moritz_ rakudo: class A { submethod BUILD(:@b) { say ~@b } }; A.new(:b[3, 4, 5])
p6eval rakudo 3b1d34: OUTPUT«3 4 5␤»
moritz_ seems to work fine here even with arrays 15:11
m6locks hmm i must've confused the notation then, gonna try if it works 15:12
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masak *sigh*. alester asks for help writing a Plack article on Twitter, which causes mst to suggest he resign instead, and hanekomu to call him clueless. sometimes community interactions make me sad. :( 15:27
alester Where's that?
masak on Twitter.
alester Suggest I resign from what?
masak perlbuzz.
moritz_ that's not nice[tm] 15:28
alester Wow.
masak alester: fwiw, I appreciate your efforts with perlbuzz. I think others do as well.
I may not find everything there relevant or interesting, but that's just how it is.
moritz_ certainly does
masak no-one's paying you for it.
PerlJam masak, alester: I do.
alester Wow. 15:29
masak hugs alester
moritz_ hugs mst 15:30
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masak for a while, perlbuzz was one of the very few blogs out there which had a design that didn't look crap. nowadays other blogs are picking up, but it was definitely setting the standard for quite a while. 15:31
PerlJam masak: mst's comment shows that he's operating under a false assumption. 15:32
masak which comment? and which false assumption? 15:33
PerlJam masak: about passing "the perlbuzz brand onto somebody who's actually paying attention" It seems to imply that alester is a generator of buzz rather than a reporter of buzz. 15:34
masak it does.
alester And also the assumption that perlbuzz is some sort of community property. 15:35
masak my initial reaction is still the overriding one: that no matter what mst and hanekomu think of alester, they are making themselves look like jerks by writing what they do. I don't see why anyone rational would do that. 15:36
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alester And it reminds me that I want nothing to do with mst projects. 15:36
Catalyst, DBIx, etc 15:37
I personally don't use Catalyst because I don't want to deal with a community that is actively hostile.
masak Plack is an mst project. 15:38
at least he's contributed.
I'm not sure the label 'mst project' is a useful one...
but I agree that parts of the Perl 5 community are overly hostile, and that it doesn't have to be that way. 15:39
PerlJam masak: thus perl 6 :)
masak among other reasons, yes.
PerlJam I think it has to do with the 3 virtues of a perl programmer. Many people exhibit false-laziness. I think there's also some misunderstanding about what "hubris" really means in the perl universe. 15:40
(granted it's all Larry's fault for using terms in a confusing anti-sense way ;) 15:41
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masak "There ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over." -- Larry Wall 15:42
I think that applies. :)
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jnthn Sure, though we're all human and can accidentally the asshole sometimes. 15:43
alester yeah, but this wasn't accidental.
masak oh, indeed.
PerlJam alester: so ... did you run over mst's cat or something? He seems particularly hostile towards you. 15:44
jnthn Well, yes, people can just be nasty too.
alester Who knows?
jnthn never quite knows what to make of mst. :-) I've found I can cope with him just fine so long as there's plenty of beer too. :-)
masak I generally like mst. even when it's be he's bellowing at, strangely. 15:46
that doesn't mean I agree with everything he says, of course.
especially not when he's actually being an ass.
PerlJam masak: that sums up how I feel about mst too. Generally I like him; sometimes he goes irrationally far. 15:47
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jnthn masak: Yes, that probably sums it up pretty well. 15:47
mdxi i typically find him enjoyably bellicose and curmudgeonly, and he's rounded on me a couple of times, too. he's one of those people who define the middle ground by clearly being well to one side of it. 15:49
masak aye.
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PerlJam But I wonder what it takes to get mst to *always* be against you? I mean, in the past I've poked him enough that he blew up and stormed off (on IRC) and he and I still get along just fine. 15:51
I bet it's some sort of fallen-hero kind of thing. mst used to look up to an idealized alester and when he found out that alester is human, it was too much. 15:52
now he's completely anti-alester.
alester But I'm not human. 15:53
I am the Loc-Nar.
masak o.O 15:54
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Su-Shee well, he's funny, passionate, productive, has an opinion, does stuff, is no idiot so what more does someone want? politeness? well-behavior? what for? :) 16:22
masak sure. still a difference between not being polite all the time, and being hurtful. 16:23
[particle] less poison.
masak exactly. I'm amazed they do not see that themselves.
[particle] this cocktail is delicious! you can barely taste the arsenic. 16:24
masak [particle]++ 16:25
frettled heh :)
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frettled alester: I meant to alester++ for the bobby-tables.com post earlier this year, but I forgot. 16:26
I can do it again: alester++ 16:27
alester Thanks.
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alester Patches welcome on anything on there. 16:27
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moritz_ rakudo: sub test($test is write) { } 16:32
p6eval rakudo c06062: ( no output )
moritz_ bad rakudo, doesn't complain about unknown traits 16:33
masak rakudo: sub test($test is hippopotamus) { }
p6eval rakudo c06062: ( no output )
masak submits rakudobug
jnthn It does
Where they're actually wired up.
masak ...but?
jnthn rakudo: sub yulia is krassivaya { }
p6eval rakudo c06062: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &substr␤current instr.: 'perl6;Signature;_block21375' pc 463825 (src/gen/core.pir:72226)␤»
jnthn wtf.
masak submits rakudobug
jnthn ffs.
Well, it fails anyway.
moritz_ masak: there's already a ticket 16:34
masak oh.
moritz_: for the first one?
jnthn Point is that parameter traits are just NYI.
moritz_ RT #60966 - Rakudo should throw errors on unknown traits
jnthn (never were in alpha either)
masak moritz_: ok.
still submitting the second one.
jnthn Yeah
second one is weird.
masak jnthn: Yulia just made RT :)
jnthn Cute.
moritz_ Yulia? 16:35
masak :)
jnthn quickly re-treats to working on fuzzy searching stuff
er, EUNREQUIREDHYPHEN
moritz_ rakudo: sub f() as Int { '5' }; say f().WHAT 16:36
p6eval rakudo c06062: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &trait_mod:<as>␤current instr.: '' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤»
jnthn That's more like it.
Well, sane error
Should work of course.
moritz_ aye
jnthn YANYI.
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diakopter s/UNREQUIRED/UNNECESSARY/ 16:37
or SUPERFLUOUS 16:38
IllvilJa UNCOMPULSARY ?
moritz_ or simply s{ '-' } = '';
diakopter NONCOMPULSORY
[particle] ECLOSINGHYPHENNOTFOUND 16:39
moritz_ NONPULSORY?
jnthn rakudo: say "re-treat" ~~ s[ '-' ] = '';
p6eval rakudo c06062: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to readonly value␤current instr.: '&die' pc 17293 (src/builtins/Junction.pir:404)␤»
jnthn oh, yeah.
rakudo: my $x = "re-treat"; $x ~~ s[ '-' ] = ''; say $x;
p6eval rakudo c06062: OUTPUT«retreat␤»
moritz_ rakudo: sub infix:<,> { 42 }; say 5, 5
p6eval rakudo c06062: OUTPUT«55␤»
moritz_ (yes, there's a ticket for that already) 16:40
masak :)
IllvilJa UNNONOPTIONAL?
masak num &
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IllvilJa quits trolling 16:41
moritz_ nom is a good idea, akshually
diakopter that reminds me of guys at my university who wore t-shirts proclaiming "holiness is not an option; it's a command"
moritz_ groans 16:42
jnthn yeahbut following commands is optional. ;-)
diakopter I teased them by asking, "how are you supposed to obey the command if obedience is not one of the possible options?"
jnthn lol
diakopter (it should have said "holiness is not optional; it's a command"
)
IllvilJa Hm. "Not an option means it is a command" => "An option means it is an UNcommand"? 16:45
diakopter "an option" means "one of the possible alternatives"
TimToady 2 options == 1 choice :) 16:46
IllvilJa choice == uncommand == choice then...
Just trying to enrichen (?) the English language.
IllvilJa leaves for playing a game with the small kids... :-) 16:48
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pugssvn r30329 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fudge signature.t for rakudo 16:56
dalek kudo: 4e1dd48 | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
we pass signature.t
 16:59
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moritz_ blog.llvm.org/2010/04/amazing-feats...overy.html 17:15
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dalek ok: 5fc47e2 | moritz++ | docs/release-guide.pod:
[docs] update release guide
 17:16
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PerlJam moritz_: you're releasing (have released) a copy of the book today? 17:54
slavik what book? 17:58
where can I buy it?
spinclad right here at github.com 17:59
moritz_ PerlJam: yes
slavik: you can't, not yet
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slavik moritz_: what's it about? 18:00
moritz_ slavik: Perl 6
slavik :D
I want it
where is it?
moritz_ github.com/perl6/book/
there's an (unpolished) PDF version on the download page 18:01
slavik moritz_: if I stalk you long enough, will you sign it? :) 18:03
PerlJam slavik: the other authoers might be hurt if you didn't stalk them too :) 18:04
moritz_ slavik: a single meeting in meat space will be enough :-)
PerlJam s/oe/o/
slavik ;)
moritz_ anyway, the plan is still to release around the same time as Rakudo *
PerlJam SDL and parrot are getting lots of love from the gsoc, but perl 6 only a little love :( 18:07
slavik rakudo what version?
PerlJam slavik: Whatever version ships with Rakudo Star 18:08
slavik oh
jnthn Might not even map to an actual Rakudo release either, fwiw.
Though really should run on a particular Parrot monthly.
PerlJam jnthn: in that case, I think perhaps a "special release" might be in order :) 18:09
jnthn We'll see what happens. :-) 18:10
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PerlJam Grr. I see that mst and alester are still fencing :( 18:14
IllvilJa PerlJam: Where?
PerlJam twitter
IllvilJa Oh. Then I'm safe ;-). I'm 'deaf' to tweets. 18:15
obra mst reports that he's stopped ;)
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[particle] second-hand tweets are as bad for you as second-hand smoke 18:17
colomon "_bsr At Hands On with Perl 6 using the rakudo compiler, taught by Damian Conway. Great stuff happening." 18:20
speaking of second-hand tweets.
:)
that's 20 minutes ago.
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moritz_ phenny: ask masak where he installed pdflatex from, CokeBot9000++ wants to know 18:34
phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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alester PerlJam: I think your assessment that " mst and alester are still fencing " is inaccurate. 18:44
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moritz_ std: $!{ { } } 18:56
p6eval std 30329: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of $!{ { } variable; in Perl 6 please use smart match against $! at /tmp/NDRiyrTed6 line 1:␤------> $!{ { }⏏ }␤FAILED 00:01 108m␤»
moritz_ hah, LTA error message from STD (notice the wrongly nested brackets) :-)
but that's cheating, I know :-) 18:58
TimToady given what the p5 idiom is, yes. :)
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bkeeler G'mornin #p6 19:09
jnthn o/ bkeeler
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moritz_ takes a shot at special variables deprecation warnings 19:24
jnthn moritz_++ 19:25
colomon \o/
moritz_ it's mostly just copy&paste from STD.pm 19:26
jnthn :-)
moritz_ and removing those :: about which NQP-rx complains
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moritz_ $ git diff | wc -l 19:27
209
std: $@ 19:28
p6eval std 30329: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of $@ variable as eval error; in Perl 6 please use $! at /tmp/XVoRrgT6FF line 1:␤------> $@⏏<EOL>␤FAILED 00:01 108m␤»
colomon jnthn: ping? 19:36
moritz_ ok, got my patch ready, waiting for spectest to finish
rakudo: for (1..3)->$n {say $n} 19:38
p6eval rakudo 4e1dd4: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤»
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moritz_ std: for (1..3)->$n {say $n} 19:40
p6eval std 30329: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of -> as postfix; in Perl 6 please use either . to call a method, or whitespace to delimit a pointy block at /tmp/xkCY23e7MW line 1:␤------> for (1..3)->⏏$n {say $n}␤FAILED 00:01 107m␤»
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moritz_ ah; the title of RT #65212 is wrong 19:42
STD.pm expects <ws> before the '->' in a for statement, Rakudo doesn't 19:43
rakudo: say ')->' ~~ / ')' <.ws> '->'/
p6eval rakudo 4e1dd4: OUTPUT«)->␤»
moritz_ a <ws> matches the empty string between two non-identifier characters
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TimToady LTM goof, perhaps. STD never lets a token cross <.ws> 19:44
moritz_ so, should it be allowed with whitespace? 19:45
TimToady with whitespace it's not a postfix
moritz_ *without
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TimToady without whitespace, the expression parser should have picked it up as a postfix before for's -> ever gets a shot at it 19:46
moritz_ ok
so STD.pm is correct
TimToady I very nearly said, "Of course." :)
moritz_ :-)
dalek kudo: 5094077 | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.pm:
port most "Unsupported use of $weird variable" from STD.pm.

I'm not yet convinced they all work (for example I couldn't trigger the one for $@, although the regex seems pretty obvious), but all in all it looks like a net win.		 19:50
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levengli how does one read STD.pm? 19:57
moritz_ one line at a time
.oO( grammar patches work better if spell "postfix" correctly )
levengli i'll rephrase, in what language is it eritten? 19:58
written
moritz_ in Perl 6
S05 is of special interest :-) 19:59
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levengli you're killing me :) 20:01
moritz_ I admit it's quite a tough read 20:05
and i'm far from understanding it all
std: say 1 << 2
p6eval std 30329: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of << to do left shift; in Perl 6 please use +< or ~< at /tmp/khpNxjPw3r line 1:␤------> say 1 << ⏏2␤FAILED 00:01 108m␤»
moritz_ TimToady: why is there still a <O(|%multiplicative)> behind the <.obs()> in infix:«<<»? 20:06
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moritz_ (line 3610) 20:06
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TimToady it's just there for old time's sake, but it's unreached code really 20:08
moritz_ ok
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moritz_ should auld acquaintance be forgot... 20:09
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nick has anyone made a deb packet for ilbot? 20:10
moritz_ nick: nope; it hardcodes too many paths right now; it would need a proper installer first 20:11
nick i've been trying to install it on ubuntu at the moment. so many dependicies :)
moritz_ aye, that too 20:12
when I wrote I really only thought of logging this channel here
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frettled alester: Haha, I forwarded the link to Bobby Tables, and got the question: why aren't C and Lisp mentioned? Answer from someone else: because C-coders and Lisp-coders hardly need those examples. ;) 20:21
alester I need to put that question up
"
W
y
"Why isn't language X here?"
frettled "Answer: because you're a lazy bum and haven't provided a decent example yet."
You might want to find a more diplomatic way of phrasing that. 20:22
You don't want to be accidentally confused with mst, after all. ;)
moritz_ "Answer: because our resources are limited. You can help out by providing an example on your own, which you please sent to $email_address" 20:24
frettled "Please send spam to $other_email_address."
20:24 nick left
frettled falls over. 20:25
I'm on Planet Perl 6! Something happenedededed!
If I only had something worth posting… Perhaps after a good night's sleep. :) 20:26
moritz_ (two more <.obs()> commits coming up if spectest run is successful) 20:27
rakudo: use Test; plan 1; isa_ok(1|2, Junction); 20:30
p6eval rakudo 509407: OUTPUT«1..1␤Null PMC access in get_iter()␤current instr.: '!DISPATCH_JUNCTION_CORE' pc 16360 (src/builtins/Signature.pir:151)␤»
jnthn rakudo: say 1|2 ~~ Junction 20:31
p6eval rakudo 509407: OUTPUT«1␤»
jnthn rakudo: say (1|2).isa(Junction)
p6eval rakudo 509407: OUTPUT«any(0)␤»
jnthn heh, isa auto-threads...
spinclad so does isa_ok, looks like 20:32
jnthn Yeah, though I've no idea why it should then blow up like that.
moritz_ rakudo: say (1|2).^isa(Junction) 20:33
p6eval rakudo 509407: OUTPUT«1␤»
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pugssvn r30330 | moritz++ | [t/spec] unfudge test for RT #65212, for (list)-> $sig { ... } should die without whitespace before -> 20:41
frettled rakudo: say 1 ~~ Junction
p6eval rakudo 509407: OUTPUT«0␤»
dalek kudo: e54dc62 | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.pm:
detect obsolete use of -> as postfix; fixes RT #65212
 20:42
kudo: b75b2b3 | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.pm:
catch infix << and >> as obsolete bit shift operators
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moritz_ has submitted a bug to debian about an LTA error message :-) 20:45
$ sudo route del foo
SIOCDELRT: No such process
it's one I've been hating for quite some time 20:46
but never really thought of submitting before being exposed to the Perl 6 culture of wanting good error messages :-)
anyway, enough LHF rakudo hacking for today, some sleep is appropriate 20:47
jnthn moritz_++ :-)
night o/
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lichtkind why is object type Str immutable? 21:17
spinclad same reason numbers are, they are value types, i would think 21:18
parrot is currently seeing some benefits to making their strings immutable 21:19
lichtkind spinclad: yeah but that calue could change no? 21:20
jnthn lichtkind: How so?
spinclad 'changing' a value produces a new value
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spinclad $a++ doesn't change any numbers, it puts a new number in the $a container. 21:21
likewise for $a ~= 'more string'
lichtkind spinclad: ah thanks i now get it but i think ~= is no longer on p6 21:22
spinclad yes, ~ is concat, ~= is its op= form 21:23
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spinclad note: this is a functionalist point of view i have, here 21:23
lichtkind spinclad: i now understand why scalar is mutable type 21:25
spinclad excellent
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lichtkind spinclad: are all types defined my classes or some even by roles? 21:32
jnthn There are some roles too. 21:34
Iterator and Failure should be roles, I think. 21:35
lichtkind jnthn: thanks 21:36
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lichtkind added the other 2 sigiles and som more linking and first object types 21:42
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aesop lol put that shit o shit on klulz 21:53
diakopter ? 21:55
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spinclad i think someone mistook their ircpane for a phone 22:18
jnthn colomon: oh hai 22:26
colomon: Is the roles + multi methods stuff your Top Priority Thingy for me to take a look at?
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lue o hai dere 23:04
phenny lue: 09:02Z <masak> tell lue "Some of the hardest work [in lnaguage design] isn't making the changes, it's getting them past the maintainers or an ensuing bikeshedding discussion that goes nowhere."
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lue "C<S32> has always been volatile for these reasons; C<S32::Temporal> doubly so." heh heh 23:07
pugssvn r30331 | lwall++ | [STD] better message on $!{} just for moritz_++ 23:08
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lue masak: and I should always remember: "Everybody wants the colon". :) 23:18
jnthn would like to keep his colon to himself.
23:21 fridim joined
lue There is a corollary, involving smileys... 23:22
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jnthn -> sleep 23:48
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lue good night, jnthn o/ 23:49
lichtkind good night
lue lichtkind: are you going to bed, or seeing jnthn off? (In case you are going to bed, goodnight o/) 23:51
lichtkind lue: no i thought you were waving jnthn goodnight 23:52
i reconnected recently and didnt see
lue I was :) 23:55
23:55 Limbic_Region left
lichtkind i was chatting with jnthn before forced disconnect 23:59

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