»ö« | perl6.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, alpha:, pugs:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by lichtkind on 5 March 2010.
diakopter sigh 00:00
sorear jnthn: that's parsed differently, using |
jnthn sorear: Ah.
Then...meh.
Could always be semantically wrong, of course.
(STD mostly does syntax) 00:01
Maybe the intention is that you can write the traits before the sub.
gah
before the signature
or either side of it
And the compiler should check you don't have more than one signature.
I hate to imagine what Rakudo does if you feed it such a construction. 00:02
diakopter std: method foo ()()()()()() { }
p6eval std 30827: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 112m␤»
jnthn rakudo: sub foo ($x) ($y) { }
diakopter rakudo: method foo ()()()()()() { }
p6eval rakudo 475d1c: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "sub foo ($"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 528 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:348)␤»
rakudo 475d1c: OUTPUT«Malformed method at line 11, near "foo ()()()"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 528 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:348)␤»
jnthn :-)
diakopter rakudo: method foo ()()() { }
p6eval rakudo 475d1c: OUTPUT«Malformed method at line 11, near "foo ()()()"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 528 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:348)␤»
diakopter rakudo: method foo ()() { }
p6eval rakudo 475d1c: OUTPUT«Malformed method at line 11, near "foo ()() {"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 528 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:348)␤»
diakopter k
00:02 demond left
jnthn I think Rakudo doesn't pay too much attention to STD there. :-) 00:02
(e.g. does something a bit simpler, including just looking for one sig) 00:03
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diakopter phenny: tell pmurias I made it so return type is optional on constructors 00:10
phenny diakopter: I'll pass that on when pmurias is around.
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jnthn oh noes, my donought! 00:16
00:19 diakopter sets mode: +o jnthn
diakopter jnthn: yer up late 00:19
jnthn diakopter: My sleep has been...odd...of late.
lue He's giving up
diakopter the ghost? 00:20
jnthn Sheesh, can't I keep it a little longer? It was only just pentecost!
lue He gave up sleeping a night or two ago as well. He said he gave up.
jnthn lue: I meant that particular night, not in general. ;-) 00:21
oh yay, the spectest run in nearly done.
lue I'm shining microwaves into the sky. With any luck, they'll hit reflectors on the moon, and just possibly hit you and maybe, if there is enough strength left, do something to you.
like make you sleepy 00:22
diakopter nobody ROFLd at my mention of Prov 26:4-5
jnthn I suspect it may be more that it seems to have got quite suddently hotter and humider in the last several days here. 00:23
diakopter the other day, when speaking of juxtapositions
lue I didn't catch it, sorry.
diakopter I mean, it wasn't funny, just appropriate.
sigh. communication fail (by me). Time for me to give up. Too much coding fail today 00:24
jnthn diakopter: I only just bothered to look it up. :-)
lue what could the element Perlium do? hhmmm....
jnthn Patches ahoy! \o/ 00:25
jnthn finally actually wrote some code
dalek meta: r298 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/ (6 files):
[perlesque] add perl6/ src folder (for the Perl 6 implementation named Sprixel,

Make return type on constructor method declarations optional. Add a test for ++pmurias problem case, with a single-assignment correction to make it parse correctly. ;)		 00:26
jnthn dalek: That wasn't the patch I was looking for.
;-)
A cool one though it was.
lue (EXPLAIN!) 00:29
jnthn rakudo: role A { method foo { self.Str } }; say A.foo
p6eval rakudo 475d1c: OUTPUT«A()<0x34accc0>␤»
dalek kudo: 4293e07 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
Implement auto-currying at compile time of infix, prefix and postfix operators.

construction a little less ugly.		 00:30
kudo: b0ec2da | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
Give Perl6::Compiler::Signature a nicer constructor, to allow neater code in the
kudo: 06a4af5 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Compiler/Parameter.pm:
Give Perl6::Compiler::Parameter a better constructor so we can write cleaner
rakudo: edb448f | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
lue what is it with the seemingly random version numbers in git? Is it a checksum of some sort. 00:31
pmichaud lue: they're sha-1 hashes
lue: they're designed to be globally unique across repositories 00:32
(at least, across repositories that are likely to be borrowing commits from each other :-)
sorear they are the recursive SHA-1 of the entire history of every file in the repository
jnthn pmichaud: I did some cleanup of the code we use to make signatures for blocks.
pmichaud jnthn: +1!
jnthn pmichaud: Hopefully that makes things feel a bit less messy. :-)
pmichaud jnthn: my work on closures in the next couple of days will greatly thank you
sorear pmichaud: well, when git breaks, you get a consolation prize of a SHA-1 collision. Isn't there a substantial cash prize for those?
jnthn pmichaud: There's likely a bit more possible. 00:33
pmichaud unless, of course, you've made it harder, in which case you will hear cursing coming from the western hemisphere
jnthn pmichaud: Nah, just gave Signature and Parameter sane constructors.
pmichaud jnthn: that sounds very good 00:34
jnthn :-) 00:35
pmichaud: Auto-currying seems to work nicely, we'll see what falls out from it.
It's one thing off moritz_++'s wish list for R*. :-)
dalek meta: r299 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/Main.cs:
[perlesque] for the billionth time, remove debugging mode flag.
pmichaud jnthn: once again I'm truly amazed at the speed with which you're able to add features to R*. I think I was once that fast also, but seem to have slowed down over the past couple of years... :-|
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lue jnthn: stop coding that fast! Your fingers can't take prolonged periods in speeds greater than c 00:37
jnthn pmichaud: Well, in this case all the primitives I had to do stuff atop of were pretty solid, which decidedly helps. :-) 00:38
diakopter likes solid primitives too 00:39
jnthn pmichaud: One random thought to run by you for a knee-jerk reaction.
pmichaud most of the solid primitives I have tend to be regular polyhedra
lue [I keep polychora around the house]
diakopter oh my
pmichaud puts on his knee-pads
jnthn pmichaud: How would you feel about trying to elimiate the majority of our use of loadinit in favor of the phasers impl? 00:40
pmichaud: loadinit is causing us...nasty problems...I think.
pmichaud: Especially it's dealings with leixcal scope. 00:41
pmichaud ...thinking...
jnthn pmichaud: Alternatively, we need to be able to put stuff in outer lexpads at loadinit time and have them still be there.
Cases that hurt now:
pmichaud well, that's the real problem, isn't it?
sorear what we *need* is protolexpads
jnthn my class Foo { }; our class Bar is Foo { } # oh noes.
This explodes now and I don't have a good way to fix it. 00:42
Because right now, my class Foo gets installed into the lexpad just like we install subs, etc.
pmichaud protolexpads would help, or we need a way to invoke a sub such that we keep the lexpad that has already been created for it
jnthn Whereas our Bar gets set up in the loadinit
Which happens...before Foo
pmichaud instead of creating a new one
anyway, I have two knee-jerk reactions 00:43
(1) making things happen more like BEGIN brings us closer to the right way of doing things (i.e., I'd think that using phasers is better than :loadinit)
(2) I don't see that moving :loadinit to phasers really solves the problem (but perhaps you've thought of something I haven't there) 00:44
jnthn pmichaud: You may be right on (2). At least it's not the only thing that will need doing. 00:45
pmichaud: Maybe I should spend the tuits on protolexpad-ish stuff instead.
pmichaud the problem is really Parrot's model of lexpads
jnthn Aye, it's not quite what we want. 00:46
pmichaud from a Parrot perspective, the symbol Foo doesn't get bound until the scope containing Foo is invoked
i.e., the lexpad entry for Foo doesn't exist until the outer scope is invoked
it's easier to imagine with something like: 00:47
sub xyz() { my class Foo { }; our class Bar is Foo { } }
jnthn Well, it affects the mainline too
But yes, that's pretty much it. 00:48
pmichaud the mainline is just another scope, yes.
and from a Parrot perspective, the lexical symbols in the mainline don't really exist before the mainline is invoked
sorear in a perl6 model, lexpads are cloned
we can do that with a custom lexinfo
I think
jnthn sorear: Last time I worked through what it might take, I think I maybe ended up with us needing a custom Sub too, but it may be avoidable. 00:49
pmichaud let me look again
just a sec
jnthn I'd *really* like to see if we couldn't put this mess to bed at least somewhat ahead of R* though. It's kinda...embarassing.
pmichaud Personally, I'm not too concerned if one can't mix lexical and packaged scoped classes in R*
maybe I should be... but I'm not. 00:50
jnthn pmichaud: I didn't mean that specific example. I meant the whole plethora of issues.
like
rakudo: my role Foo { method lol { say 42 } }; Foo.lol # fine
p6eval rakudo edb448: OUTPUT«42␤»
jnthn rakudo: our role Foo { method lol { say 42 } }; Foo.lol # not
p6eval rakudo edb448: OUTPUT«42␤»
jnthn ...oh.
oh, I know what's not 00:51
spinclad would one want a wall to prevent such mixed times, or delay class Bar till Foo is ready?
pugssvn r30828 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement basic signature translation
jnthn rakudo: role Foo { method lol { say 42 } }; class Bar does Foo { }; Bar.lol
p6eval rakudo edb448: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &say␤current instr.: 'lol' pc 563 (EVAL_1:217)␤»
jnthn That one.
pmichaud technically, Foo can be ready at BEGIN time also, as long as we have a way to bind it into the lexpad at runtime
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jnthn This happens because when you do a role, it has to go and clone the role body. 00:52
And thus its methods
(for type parameters to be captured)
And if that happens from within a callchain involving loadinit, we appear to be in a mess.
pmichaud: Yes, that would be ideal. 00:53
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lue can only hope to aspire to your level of knowledge of rakudo/perl6 someday. 00:54
jnthn lue: Needs time, minor loss of sanity, beer and hanging around here soaking up the knowledge of @other. :-) 00:55
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spinclad lue: you need not just hope; you may fully aspire 00:55
pmichaud sorear: custom lexinfo is a good idea... we'd also need custom lexpads
jnthn (Or tht's how I did it. :-))
The only reason I think we may be able to get away with Sub also being custom is that lexpad when created gets the lexinfo. 00:56
lue [and a well-detailed spec :P]
jnthn If we can hang the "pernament stuff" in the lexinfo perhaps...
...then the lexpad on creation and copy those things into itself.
s/and/can/
pmichaud well, the Sub doesn't actually use the lexinfo directly -- it just passes the lexinfo to the lexpad when it's created
jnthn pmichaud: Yes.
pmichaud so, it'd have to be a custom lexpad to be able to do something different with the custom lexinfo 00:57
jnthn pmichaud: My worry was more that we'd need something to trigger the clone of the stuff we already knew.
pmichaud oh, I think that would just be OurLexPad.new that does that
i.e., our custom LexPad would have a custom init_pmc
jnthn pmichaud: But I suspect between a custom lexinfo and custom lexpad, we don't need a custom sub.
pmichaud it would be tricky because the LexPad doesn't learn about its context until a subsequent step after it's been created 00:58
so we'd have to create the LexPad, and then trigger any cloning as part of the set_pointer
i.e., when we attach a context to the LexPad, *then* it could start populating the context with the items from the LexInfo 00:59
if (!PMC_IS_NULL(sub->lex_info)) {
Parrot_pcc_set_lex_pad(INTERP, context, Parrot_pmc_new_init(INTERP,
Parrot_get_ctx_HLL_type(INTERP, enum_class_LexPad),
sub->lex_info));
VTABLE_set_pointer(INTERP, Parrot_pcc_get_lex_pad(INTERP, context), context);
}
sorear lue: try aspiring to my level of understanding
jnthn pmichaud: ah yes
But that's do-able.
If messy. 01:00
pmichaud not sure I'd want to do this for R*, though.
tough call.
jnthn Worth prototyping in a branch perhaps?
pmichaud were you able to move our existing BEGINs to phasers yet?
jnthn No, that's high on my todo list.
pmichaud or does this affect that directly? 01:01
jnthn No, it's not related to that.
pmichaud I think I'd want to see BEGINs as true phasers first.
jnthn I brought this up because I just ran into it yet again.
In a sense, the proto lex pad thing may well be the real fix we need
And doing everything else as phasers could come later
I'm not sure.
pmichaud I think moving BEGIN to be phasers will tell us a lot, though.
jnthn Aye. 01:02
I can hack on that tomorrow, most probably.
Fancied doing something shiny today. :-)
pmichaud given the repl stuff I just worked on, lexical handling is high in my mind at the moment
so I think a day to stew on it might give me some real clues
jnthn Sure
I'm not after an immediate answer; it's just something that's been bugging me.
pmichaud especially since I'm excited that I was able to hack lexpad yesterday :)
jnthn ;-) 01:03
pmichaud I'm a little curious about how custom LexInfos work as dynpmcs, though.
I mean, if Parrot loads a .pbc before rakudo itself has been loaded...... 01:04
pugssvn r30829 | qiuhw++ | [t/spec] test .subst with :samecase while using block as the replacement.
pmichaud does it know how to go back and patch up the LexInfos?
(for the subs it has already loaded...?)
lue is upgrading Fedora, random logout probable. [IIUC] 01:05
jnthn pmichaud: I suspect...not. 01:06
pmichaud: In theory though the PBC should contain references to the library.
(the dynpmc library, that is)
pmichaud yeah, it just feels weird
there's also always the possibility that we don't need a custom LexInfo... just a custom LexPad with better set_pointer vtable 01:07
jnthn Where would it find The Existing Stuff?
pmichaud i.e., at the point of the set_pointer the custom LexPad should have enough information around that we could look up the protolexpad information from wherever we want, not just a LexInfo
jnthn Ah, I see.
pmichaud it could be a property on a sub
jnthn Hm 01:08
Yeah
pmichaud which we still put in place via :loadinit or a BEGIN phaser or something
jnthn Heh
You know
pmichaud btw, ultimately phasers are registered using :loadinit, so we don't ever truly eliminate them)
jnthn If we combine your cheat discovered yesterday
Then we can stick at hash in for the lexpad at the start of the phaser 01:09
Do all the stuff with lexical set up
And stash the hash.
(as our proto lexpad info)
pmichaud heh
seems easier to just create the hash, though.
it's also trivially easy to go ahead and a normal lexpad, and then grab a copy
jnthn May be.
pmichaud which is what the repl does now anyway
jnthn True
Seems we have various possibilities, anyway. 01:10
pmichaud oh!!!!!
muwahahahaha
pmichaud grabs his Damian horns
jnthn rakudo: my role Drinking { method go-to-bar() { say "glug" } }; my role Gymnastics { method go-to-bar() { say "ouch" } }; my class DrunkGymnast does Gymnastics does Drinking { method go-to-bar() { self.Gymnastics::go-to-bar() } }; DrunkGymnast.new.go-to-bar
p6eval rakudo edb448: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in find_method('ACCEPTS')␤current instr.: '!dispatch_::' pc 765 (src/glue/dispatch.pir:266)␤»
jnthn Fixed that one locally :-)
pmichaud jnthn: try this on for size.... :-)
we create a custom LexPad 01:11
the first time a lexpad is created for a sub, it also stores itself as a property on the sub
so that the first lexpad created ends up being the protolexpad for all of the ones that come after it 01:12
jnthn ooh 01:13
pmichaud note that any :loadinit+:outer subs will force a lexpad to be created in the outer sub
jnthn Yes, indeedy.
pmichaud (before it's invoked)
jnthn That sounds rather promising.
And rather uninvasive.
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sorear pmichaud: how would that interact with something like BEGIN { #`(outer has a lexpad now) }; my $x; 01:15
pmichaud sorear: I'd need to think about it a bit more
jnthn BEGIN is a bit more difficult in that we have to do it at parse time.
pmichaud but from a Parrot perspective, such a BEGIN wouldn't really have an :outer
jnthn Right. 01:16
pmichaud so *really* what we might want is the ability for BEGIN to work in a set of lexpads, and then at CHECK time the first thing we do is attach those lexpads to the actual subs
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spinclad in my $x; BEGIN { ... $x ... } # while this is paradoxical in time, isn't $x found in :outer? 01:17
pmichaud spinclad: yes, it is.
jnthn spinclad: There isn't an outer yet at parse time though 01:18
Not a runtime outer anyway
pmichaud spinclad: the point is that we can't talk about a lexical $x because the Parrot sub containing $x doesn't exist yet. In fact, at that point we don't even have a complete AST for the sub.
spinclad agreed, not a runtime one
pmichaud jnthn: maybe instead of protolexpads we really want proto-contexts.
so that when a BEGIN runs, it gets a "protocontext" in which to run that we later convert to a real context 01:19
jnthn Hmm
pmichaud and the protocontext just has a normal hash for its lexpad
jnthn What do you mean by "context"
?
spinclad sure; what we have is the compiler's dream of the runtime structure...
jnthn As in, related to the Parrot Context PMC? 01:20
pmichaud context as in something that looks and acts like .... right.
spinclad (re not even complete AST)
pmichaud because technical a BEGIN block never needs an :outer
*technically
I mean, all :BEGIN blocks could easily be .lexical(0)
jnthn If they flatly have storage in themselves for all outer lexicals, and then we can keep hold of those, I guess it can work. 01:21
(and we then go and stick them into the real lexpads when we have them)
pmichaud right
jnthn A cunning solution.
Probably fun to implement. ;-)
pmichaud essentially, we end up with an outer structure that is parallel to the one that subs construct at compile time 01:23
i.e., a compile-time view of the lexical state
and then at CHECK time, we map the compile-time view onto the actual subs 01:24
jnthn *nod*
I think that could well work.
Don't know that we need that piece for R*
pmichaud right
jnthn But I'm reassured to have a plan for it that sounds feasible. :-)
TimToady hah, you've found a bug in STD.
std: BEGIN { foo() }; sub foo {...}
pmichaud anyway, I think the first step is to see how far we get by thinking of our current :loadinit steps as BEGIN blocks
p6eval std 30828: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 114m␤»
jnthn pmichaud: *nod*
pmichaud and for that I'd say the first step is to convert existing BEGIN blocks to use phasers :) 01:25
jnthn Yeah, someone should do that!
oh, wait
:-)
pmichaud :-)
dalek meta: r300 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/ (6 files):
[perlesque] mark some terminal patterns as deterministic
pmichaud anyway, excellent notion. I'll let it stew in my head for a day or so and see what else falls out from it.
jnthn Just spectesting a fix to a minor lexical role issue. :-)
pmichaud but I do think we could massively clean up some of our initialization with such a model. 01:26
jnthn Doing lexical roles and classes shook out...a lot...of places that we made assumptions about type names being in name spaces.
pmichaud (not to mention make it even more portable in the future)
jnthn *packages
Yeah, it could. It would also save us some repeated work
pmichaud yes, I knew that type names being in packages was a technical debt with accruing interest
jnthn And let us actually get variable traits right in the future.
Well, I think I've muchly paid off said debt now. :-) 01:27
pmichaud but we really didn't have the pieces in place to be able to avoid it, at least not in my view of things
jnthn Until doing lexical roles/classes, it was kinda hard to test how we were doing on it too.
pmichaud exactly. 01:28
jnthn BTW
I think we essentially have lexical import together now
At least, nobody has complained about import aside from tagged imports being missing, which are a seperate issue.
Think we can mark lexical import as done in the ROADMAP?
pmichaud I'm a little wary of looking at lexical import. It's one of those that I fear I'll look at and say "omg, it needs a refactor." 01:29
jnthn pmichaud: It's implemented in NQP at least. :-)
pmichaud oh, that makes me feel much better then.
jnthn Rather than a load of PIR.
pmichaud anyway, I'm fine with marking it as done if you think it's working well enough. (And I suspect it is.) 01:30
jnthn See the stuff in src/Perl6/Module/*.pm when you want to review that area, btw
We have basic stuff for versioned/auth'd modules
Thanks to (Copenhagen Hackathon)++ 01:31
sorear Yay, I'm not the only one who writes code pmichaud dreads reading
pmichaud I'm likely to leave it alone until I either run across a problem that deals with it or someone else points out a difficult bug involving it :)
sorear: actually, your code (and bkeeler's) made me realize I need to slightly re-think my role here 01:32
(and in a good way)
sorear What do you consider to be your role?
pmichaud well, there are several
but the part I think needs reconsidering is that a large part of my job may in fact be refactoring code that others submit 01:33
as opposed to always generating new code for new capabilities
large projects need code cleaners, and perhaps I should target myself at that activity 01:34
diakopter TimToady: see twitter.com/timbunce/status/14790377860
pmichaud at any rate, I hope my refactors of the patches aren't being viewed entirely as rejections of the original patch or that the work wasn't valued/valuable 01:36
because it was
very valuable, that is
jnthn Nice clarification. ;-) 01:37
pmichaud yes, I'm struggling here to get the correct nuances out 01:38
jnthn pmichaud: So long as that role is also -Ofun for you, or an -Ofun balance can be found for it, though, +1. :-)
pmichaud: Your sense of what is likely to cause us problems down the line is usually pretty spot on. 01:39
pmichaud jnthn: well, the role rethink is part of a larger evolution, also
we're rapidly moving from a situation where there are a small number of heavy code contributors to a large number of them
for which I'm very thankful, but I'm guessing that means more of my energy should be on code management and review
I am truly impressed at the code that this team is producing 01:40
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jnthn is also very, very happy to see the team growing. 01:40
lue what did I miss? Something about a growing team?
pmichaud I mean, the fact that bkeeler++ came up with not just one, but two implementations for variable interpolation in regexes is... very encouraging. 01:41
(and impressive)
jnthn Indeed.
pmichaud what I need to figure out how to do is to get feedback to such contributors in a way that (1) enables them to do more of the refactor themselves, (2) feel the just recognition and reward for the effort they put forth, and (3) encourages them to do more 01:43
I think in these last situations I didn't do so well on these three points, which is what I'm looking to improve
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jnthn I guess in a sense, they're all trickier than Just Fixing The Code. But they're also all important in order to grow the team. 01:46
pmichaud right. in bkeeler's case, I felt it was important to Just Fix the Code 01:47
(because it was in nqp and rakudo trunk, and had implications for other code)
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pmichaud and I totally understand that he would be frustrated with me being delayed in getting useful feedback to him 01:47
anyway, I'm looking for a better balance, yes. 01:48
jnthn pmichaud++ 01:49
pugssvn r30830 | jnthn++ | [t/spec] Test for a just-fixed Rakudo bug involving lexical roles and some calling syntax. 01:51
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dalek kudo: 972ae69 | jonathan++ | docs/ROADMAP:
We've been able to import module symbols into current lexical scope for a while,
01:55
kudo: 982e8e3 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
Fix $obj.Foo::bar in the case that Foo is lexically scoped.
jnthn Another "must have" ticked off in the ROADMAP. 01:56
And with the REPL we'll have another one. :-)
Anyways, I should attempt sleep.
night o/
lue gnight o/
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diakopter I assume this was already mentioned here: www.oreillygmt.co.uk/2010/05/damian...uture.html 02:00
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diakopter "Perl 6.0, which is itself still six to twelve months away." what? 02:02
Eevee diakopter: christmas?
diakopter I really have no idea where he gets that idea 02:03
sorear this is Damian we're talking about 02:06
diakopter I was referring to that quote, yes. 02:07
lue afk
diakopter sorear: if I read between the lines correctly, I must not be familiar with the Damian reputation..? 02:09
pugssvn r30831 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement named, defaulting, and contextual parameters
sorear diakopter: he's one of the original Perl 6 prime movers, and even more optimistic/crazy/etc than TimToady
diakopter I was aware of the first part of that; I didn't realize TimToady was optimistic/crazy/etc :) 02:10
02:10 diakopter sets mode: +o sorear
sorear has anyone tried requesting ownership of #perl6 from Freenode? 02:14
diakopter someone on #freenode said that pmichaud did a while ago, but that person wouldn't give details on the status of that application; he/she said we should ask pmichaud
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pugssvn r30832 | sorear++ | [viv] Improve formatting of output blockoids 02:29
pmichaud I did that back in January, yes. 02:34
I've never gotten any sort of responses to my request.
I think you have to be optimistic to be able to work on Perl 6. :-)
pessimists need not apply.
02:41 sorear left 02:42 sorear joined
colomon jnthn++ 02:43
pmichaud++ # rethinking 02:52
rakudo: say (1, 2, * * (* + 1) ... 1000).perl 02:53
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤»
colomon whoops.
rakudo: say (1, 2, * * * ... 1000).perl
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 2, 4, 8, 32, 256)␤»
colomon to bed 02:54
diakopter rakudo: say (1, 1000000000, * * * ... 1000).perl
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«(1, 1000000000, 1000000000, 1e+18, 1e+27, 1e+45, 1e+72, 1e+117, 1e+189, 1e+306, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, {???} ... ???)␤»
diakopter urk 02:55
rakudo: say (1, 1001, * * * ... 1000).perl
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«(1, 1001, 1001, 1002001, 1003003001, 1.005010010005e+15, 1.00802805607006e+24, 1.01307828671629e+39, 1.0212113360054e+63, 1.03456703065561e+102, 1.05651157956295e+165, 1.09303204772171e+267, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf, Inf,
..Inf, I…
diakopter rakudo: say (1, 1e238, * * * ... Inf).perl # this seems wrong 02:57
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«(1, 1e+238, 1e+238, Inf)␤»
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pugssvn r30833 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement $*endsym (crudely) 03:05
03:05 eternaleye joined 03:08 felipe joined
diakopter implemented a hybrid of let/cc and longjmp 03:10
sorear TimToady: Is the "is binary" etc stuff in STD.pm6 actually used for anything currently? 03:11
pugssvn r30834 | sorear++ | [viv] Fix symbol escaping 03:15
TimToady sorear: nope, fossil 03:17
sorear feels like $*endsym ought to be $?endsym
and <sym> should NOT be valid in subrules 03:18
TimToady but a proto might need to make sure its specific subrule has it 03:24
but whatever, as long as it works :) 03:25
diakopter perlesquel: my $e = sub (FrameBase $f-->int) { say(1); longjmp($f); say(2); return 1}; sub callcc(Callable[:(FrameBase-->int)] $func, FrameBase $frame --> int) { $func($frame); say(3); return 1 }; callcc($e, _cc); say(4); 03:26
p6eval perlesquel: OUTPUT«1␤3␤4␤real 0.05␤user 0.03␤sys 0.00␤»
diakopter whee
dalek meta: r301 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/ (4 files):
[perlesque] implemented a hybrid of let/cc (expressed by the keyword "_cc") and
TimToady sorear++ may well have viv all ready for you by the time diakopter++ needs it \o/ 03:27
diakopter snicker 03:28
sorear TimToady: I'm a bit confused by <?before blah blah blah>
How does that differ from <before blah blah blah> or <?blah blah blah> ? 03:29
TimToady #1 would bind to $<before>
sorear What would #1 bind?
TimToady #2 only works if blah is an assertion
always nothing, I think
diakopter oh waitz, my eggzample is hrong. zback du dee drrahing boord 03:30
it should output 1␤4␤ 03:31
sorear I see.
TimToady: Don't get too excited, I'm only 4% through STD.pm6 03:35
TimToady it always speeds up :) 03:37
I haven't tried to pass anything up out of a before directly--it might or might not work by now 03:41
but due to buginess in that path in earlier versions, I usually get info out by setting a :my $x defined earlier
sorear wonders if a pure "Perl 6" Cursor/LazyMap would be unacceptably slow 03:44
TimToady as soon as you're done with viv -5, we can find out whether it can at least run as fast as it currently does :) 03:45
assuming that most everything in pm5 can be backtranslated to pm6
diakopter oh hee; found my bug
TimToady that viv -5 will turn into something closely resembling the original 5 03:46
diakopter thinks about buginess
TimToady that's assuming that viv -5 can easily do better at translating embedded regexes, esp if marked :P5 :) 03:47
s/better/better than gimme5/
once viv -5 works, we'll probably freeze the current STD.pm6 as STD_stage_0.pm6 and then start refining the stage 1 STD.pm6 to be more Perl Sixy 03:48
diakopter whee 03:49
sorear Actually, I was planning to freeze the then-current STD.pmc as boot/STD.pmc and then rm gimme5 with much rejoicing
diakopter tomato, potato 03:50
TimToady I think we should probably save the bootstrap path for a while just for safety and testing regression, but eventually we can kick it out from under completely as we gain confidence in the new stage 03:51
and in case we want to make a systematic change to boot/STD.pmc
but on the other side, we can presumably always get it back from svn if we really need it 03:53
diakopter even the downiest of pinions can perish 03:55
03:56 lue left
pugssvn r30835 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement <before>, <after>, and related assertion forms 03:56
03:58 Khisanth left 04:01 Khisanth joined, tedv left
pugssvn r30836 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement <?foo> and <!foo> 04:06
04:06 lue joined 04:07 xinming joined
diakopter it was an off-by-one-ish error 04:12
har
sorear TimToady: What is the scoping procedure for $MAYBACKTRACK? 04:13
I'm not understanding its dataflow
04:15 agentzh joined
diakopter perlesquel: my $e = sub (FrameBase $f-->int) { say(1); longjmp($f); say(2); return 1}; sub callcc(Callable[:(FrameBase-->int)] $func, FrameBase $frame --> int) { $func($frame); say(3); return 1 }; callcc($e, _cc); say(4); 04:15
p6eval perlesquel: OUTPUT«1␤4␤real 0.05␤user 0.05␤sys 0.01␤»
dalek meta: r302 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/ (3 files):
[perlesque] regular continuations.
 04:16
04:16 ash__ left
diakopter I guess technically longjmp($f) could sound like goto($f) 04:17
04:17 ash__ joined
diakopter I suspect perlesque has far too much control flow now. 04:20
04:20 drbean_ joined
dalek meta: r303 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/t/parse_bug2.t:
[perlesque] fix parse_bug2.t
 04:20
diakopter phenny: tell pmurias try this: my $e = sub (FrameBase $f-->int) { say(1); longjmp($f); say(2); return 1}; sub callcc(Callable[:(FrameBase-->int)] $func, FrameBase $frame --> int) { $func($frame); say(3); return 1 }; callcc($e, _cc); say(4); 04:21
phenny diakopter: I'll pass that on when pmurias is around.
diakopter late_dinner& 04:22
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diakopter TimToady: LOL twitter.com/migueldeicaza/status/14811536038 04:24
04:24 kst left
TimToady sorear: $MAYBACKTRACK is true if any subtree could produce multiple cursors due to non-ratcheting or explicit greedy or eager markers 04:25
it basically pessimizes all the nested ifs outward from there into lazymaps
diakopter (is what I guessed too. sprixel's grammar engine has the same construct) 04:26
really_late_dinner&
TimToady Sometimes I wish I could write as well as people think I write too... 04:27
sorear Ok, viv is completely wrong then
pugssvn r30837 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement \x and zero-width punctuational assertions 04:28
sorear in the last hour I have gotten 1 further line into STD.pm6 04:29
I hope it gets easier soon ;)
TimToady lol dalmations
when you get to about 40%, you're nearly done
but yeah, it does tend to go in fits and starts
sorear dalmations? 04:30
TimToady yes, lol of them.
04:34 sav_ joined
dalek p-rx: f60fcfe | plobsing++ | src/ (5 files):
fix with respect to ops_massacre parrot branch
 04:34
04:37 sav_ left
sorear TimToady: what is gimme5:656 doing? 04:39
I can't find the code it looks like it should generate in STD.pm5
TimToady it's a fossil from before we used <O()> 04:41
we used to use some fake mixinish types to set operator characteristics, but it was pretty bogus, and pmichaud++ came up with the <O()> method instead, which is more better 04:42
pugssvn r30838 | sorear++ | [viv] Correctly use $*MAYBACKTRACK 04:43
TimToady basically, that code is never used because STD doesn't have --> in any signatures 04:50
if no -->, $pkg is never set
pugssvn r30839 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement character classes 04:52
r30840 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement <?> and <!> (the degenerate forms) 04:56
sorear down to line 303 "regex stdstopper" 04:57
this'll be a tricky one
TimToady ah yes, your first alternation :) 04:58
sorear I actually implemented alternation a while ago
it's the declaration and code block that (somewhat) scare me
TimToady ah yes, I see now that nofun has one earlier 04:59
sorear :my @stub = return self if @*MEMOS[self.pos]<endstmt> :exists;
erm.
does the my @stub = do anything at all?
TimToady no, it's just for the side effect, hence the name, but I was trying to get it as early as possible and as fast as possible, as a microoptimization 05:01
the :my is pretty straightforward though, just do the un6 equivalents, and drop straight into the output 05:02
sorear it looks like gimme5 enforces C89 declaration rules 05:03
TimToady well, it ain't K&R
but yeah, gimme5 isn't very flexible there 05:04
viv can probably do better
fortunately, as in p6, 'my' in p5 doesn't have to be at the statement level 05:06
though p5 will get upset at a ; inside parens
std: (42;)
p6eval std 30840: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 114m␤»
TimToady and p6 won't :)
sorear why does RE_sequence bubble RE_decl nodes to the front? 05:09
TimToady and the block is pretty trival, it just un6's and wraps itself in a do {}
05:09 XaeroOne left
TimToady I don't think it bubbles, it just assumes they're first 05:11
but it pulls them off because it wants to process the sequence in reverse order, I think 05:12
or wants to have the capability to, within an <?after ...>
allbery_b reads the discussion about eqv and finds humself wondering if it's supposed to be the Solve The Halting Porblem operator 05:22
also, I've been spending altogether too much time trying to write p6 regexen in perl5.8 :) 05:23
TimToady even gimme5 requires 5.10 to do that. :)
and mostly only by ignoring 5.10 regexes :) 05:24
sorear blinks
TimToady it really mostly uses 5.10 so that we get // and switches and say
but I don't think any program has stressed p5's lexical scoping and closures more than STD.pm5 has :) 05:26
and p5 remains rock solid in that regard \o/ 05:27
allbery_b most notable acomplishment there so far is managing to get macports 5.8.9's regexp engine to dump core by using (?{}) to simulate some p6-isms
pugssvn r30841 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement regex embedded declarations
sorear mumbles something about a small world
allbery_b heh
TimToady Damian's talk about writing a p6-like grammar in p5 talks alot about the many issues of (?{}) in p5 05:28
sorear link?
allbery_b I just bet, after my experience 05:29
TimToady dunno, Damian tends not to put his talks online
sorear hmm. RE_block is big and scary.
allbery_b sad
TimToady sorear: the front part is working around the stupidity of un6(), which can't know how to put a ; on the end of a given {} construct like p5 needs 05:31
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sorear where does p5 need ; ? 05:32
allbery_b anonymous subs?
anonymous hashes? 05:33
05:34 kel__ joined
sorear What about the \bmake\b thing? 05:34
TimToady apparently it's parsed more like a do {} than like a for {} 05:35
so it needs a ; if there's another statement after 05:36
or did, maybe they've fixed that now in recent p5
hmm, no, it works with 5.10.0 05:37
TimToady scratches head
maybe you can just ignore that part
the rest of it is just accounting for the difference between {}, <{}>, <?{}>, etc 05:38
maybe I was using a 5.9 that needed the ; 05:39
anyway, seems to be a fossiloid
pugssvn r30842 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement embedded blocks 05:42
sorear huh
pugssvn spoke before svn ci returned to shell
TimToady happens sometimes
sorear Does :dba scope to the whole regex, or is it lexical? 05:53
looks like "whole" 05:55
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TimToady suppose to be lexical 05:57
*d
shouldn't really leak from a [] 05:58
pugssvn r30843 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement :dba
TimToady note that %adverbs is lexical, supposedly 05:59
diakopter feels like staying awake just to watch the sorear++ commits
pragma_ Are are there double-pluses in the names? 06:00
Why...
diakopter heh
hugme: karma sorear
hugme: @karma sorear
phenny: karma sorear
gehenna these bots
pragma_ slowly backs away and disappears. 06:01
diakopter pragma_: I forget how to get the karma
sorear buubot: karma sorear
buubot sorear: sorear has karma of 126 sorear: k23z__ wanted you to know: hey, come to #galoistheory when you get back, we're rallying up forces to do something
pugssvn r30844 | lwall++ | [STD] each BEGIN or use needs to explain its own mysteries
diakopter buubot: karma diakopter 06:02
buubot diakopter: diakopter has karma of 397
diakopter diakopter--
buubot: karma diakopter
buubot diakopter: diakopter has karma of 396
diakopter buubot: karma jnthn
buubot diakopter: jnthn has karma of 839
diakopter buubot: karma lwall
buubot diakopter: lwall has karma of 665
TimToady oh oh
diakopter lwall++
TimToady lwall++
diakopter heh
TimToady whew!
don't you dare :) 06:03
sorear buubot: karma TimToady
buubot sorear: TimToady has karma of 230
TimToady course, if it were smarter, it wouldn't let me karma lwall
a singularly unproductive personage, given how long he's been hanging out here 06:04
buubot: karma larry
buubot TimToady: larry has karma of
TimToady heh 06:05
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TimToady I guess I only used to get that when the specs were on perl.org 06:05
diakopter buubot got rebooted a month or two ago I think
buubot diakopter: Couldn't match input.
diakopter ok, now, how to translate these scheme call/cc examples to perlesque... 06:09
sorear stdstopper translated successfully 06:10
pugssvn r30845 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement brackets
sorear great, now I'm up to regex_infix__S_Tilde 06:11
which I never *really* understood to begin with 06:12
(morename)
diakopter std: / ~ / 06:13
p6eval std 30842: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Null pattern not allowed at /tmp/OW6buOvLw2 line 1:␤------> / ⏏~ /␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 111m␤»
pragma_ colors and unicode! the goggles do nothing!
diakopter lol. 06:14
TimToady the ~ requires something before and two somethings after
moritz_ good morning 06:15
TimToady sorear: btw, the code for that changed in gimme5 today
since it now wants to set up the goal as a <stopper> if it's not a standard stopper 06:16
moritz_: it'll be morning here in less than an hour :)
moritz_ TimToady: good ahead-of-time morning to you, then :-) 06:17
can't sleep?
TimToady I'm often up till midnightish
moritz_ ah, I thought you meant sun rise time or so with morning 06:18
TimToady I'm in ca.us
moritz_ I know, but I don't keep track of time zones so well yet :-)
TimToady this one's a bit further away than merry olde england 06:19
moritz_ rakudo: say 1 06:21
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«1␤»
sorear mberends: why leave rs?
moritz_ rakudo: say (*/*).(4, 2)
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«2␤»
moritz_ jnthn++ 06:22
TimToady rakudo: say ( * X=> * )(<a b c>, (1,2,3)).perl 06:25
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«invoke() not implemented in class 'GatherIterator'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
TimToady rakudo: say ( * !% * )(4,2)
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«1␤»
TimToady rakudo: say ( * !% * )(5,2) 06:26
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«0␤»
TimToady rakudo: say ( * !< * )(5,2)
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«1␤»
TimToady \o/
rakudo: say ( * ![<=] * )(5,2)
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<( )>, couldn't find final ')' at line 11␤current instr.: 'perl6;Regex;Cursor;FAILGOAL' pc 1971 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/Regex-s0.pir:1050)␤»
TimToady heh
rakudo: say ( * »*« * )([1,2,3],[2,3,4]).Str 06:28
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«2 6 12␤»
TimToady \o/
diakopter rakudo: say (*)(5,2)
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«!whatever_dispatch_helper␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say (* + 3).signature.perl
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«:(;; Mu $x)␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say (* + 3).(4, 5)
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 2 but expected 1␤current instr.: '_block46' pc 312 (EVAL_1:126)␤»
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moritz_ diakopter: should (*)(5, 2) give a similar message? 06:29
TimToady * is not a closure at all
moritz_ so that should complate that Whatever is not invocable?
*complain
sorear what happens is that it gets treated as *.postcircumfix<( )>(5,2) 06:30
rakudo: say (*)(5,2)(*+*)
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Method 'postcircumfix:<( )>' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: '!whatever_dispatch_helper' pc 278 (src/glue/dispatch.pir:23)␤»
sorear invoking a non-invocable is rewritten into a method call 06:31
moritz_ afk
sorear our method dispatcher treats Whatever specially
TimToady *.method should also be handled in the compiler
isBEKaml hey, do we have native types like 'int', 'buf' ?
sorear not quite 06:32
06:32 jjore joined
TimToady diakopter does :) 06:32
well, int anyway
sorear TimToady: ~ is parsed as Just Another Infix. Is this correct?
diakopter yes, all those
isBEKaml rakudo: enum somenum <a b c d e>; e.WHAT.perl.say; ## S12 says this should be lowercase int 06:33
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Int␤»
sorear hmm, it's also parsed at a lower prec than juxtaposition
diakopter perlesquel: say(int64)
p6eval perlesquel: OUTPUT«System.Int64␤real 0.09␤user 0.05␤sys 0.01␤»
isBEKaml oh, perlesque has it. :) 06:34
diakopter bigints too
Complex64, if I just flip a switch here 06:35
TimToady sorear: yes, but that's all negotiable
diakopter I think.
isBEKaml diakopter: Well, I have not used C# at all. 06:38
TimToady sorear: in a sense, the operator is really the ~ plus the goal atom
isBEKaml I'm looking at the source code hosted in google code repos.
diakopter isBEKaml: yeah but, you don't need C#; you just need perlesque
mostly.
TimToady sorear: in another sense, ~ is a prefix that swaps the next two atoms around 06:39
so we could also parse it as a mere term 06:40
06:41 justatheory left
diakopter where is the api for buf defined 06:42
sorear We could also parse it as a ternary op (syntax change needed)
TimToady well, of course, ??!! is just parsed as an infix, go figure...
as long as the parser is left in a correct state for what comes after, it doesn't much matter 06:43
sorear My main issue is that STD generates the wrong AST for it
a b ~ c d should be a [b ~ c d] not [a b] ~ [c d] 06:44
sorear writes some fragile reassociation code
TimToady well, can we make it tigher than juxtaposition? hmm 06:45
quant_atom_list sees pretty watertight, unfortunately 06:46
and we're not actually treating juxtaposition as an operator...
sorear thinks that, two weeks ago, '(' <~ <EXPR> ~> ')' would have been less of a shock to read 06:47
TimToady that kinda argues for treating ~ <atom> <atom> as a macroish term
I like seeing the brackets close together though 06:48
got spoiled by seeing 'between' in Haskell
isBEKaml TimToady: S12 enums section:1731,1732. What's Fri.so and Sun.so supposed to do?
TimToady especially if <EXPR> is something more complicated in [...] 06:49
diakopter growls at "the run-time system (presumably Parrot) is compiled in" in S09
isBEKaml rakudo: enum somenum <a b c d e>; say e.so;
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Method 'so' not found for invocant of class 'Integer'␤current instr.: '_block18' pc 29 (EVAL_2:0)␤»
TimToady isBEKaml: your line numbers seem off... 06:50
isBEKaml TimToady: Odd, I'm seeing them here in the pod. Wait, lemme svn up it.
TimToady: that's latest.
TimToady oh, nevermind, I went to 1371 :) 06:51
'so' used to be 'true', and is the opposite of 'not'
rakudo: say so 42
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«1␤»
TimToady rakudo: say 42.so
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Method 'so' not found for invocant of class 'Integer'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
TimToady NYI I guess
rakudo: say 42.not
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Method 'not' not found for invocant of class 'Integer'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
TimToady rakudo: say not so so so 0 06:52
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«1␤»
TimToady rakudo: say so True
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«1␤»
TimToady rakudo: say so Same 06:53
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &Same␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
TimToady rakudo: say so Increase
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &Increase␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
TimToady rakudo: say so Increasing
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &Increasing␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
TimToady rakudo: say so Order
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &Order␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
TimToady ah well
isBEKaml TimToady: so so is used to check against existence of objects like defined() ? 06:54
sorear should ~ be paying attention to the opener?
TimToady rakudo: say so Order::Same
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Can not find sub Order::Same␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6Exception;throw' pc 15859 (src/builtins/Regex.pir:18)␤»
TimToady sorear: not really, except perhaps to make sure there is one
isBEKaml TimToady: I don't know if Same, Increase, Increasing, Order are objects/classes. So, I'm guessing here if so <something> checks like defined() ? 06:55
diakopter rakudo: say so so &1
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Method 'postcircumfix:<[ ]>' not found for invocant of class ''␤current instr.: '!postcircumfix:<[ ]>' pc 11814 (src/builtins/Any.pir:54)␤»
diakopter rakudo: say so so 1
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«1␤»
diakopter oh
isBEKaml rakudo: say defined(42);
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«1␤»
TimToady rakudo: say defined(0) 06:56
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«1␤»
TimToady rakudo: say so(0)
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«0␤»
TimToady rakudo: say !!(0)
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«0␤»
TimToady same thing
moritz_ just different precedence
TimToady rakudo: say ?42
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«1␤»
TimToady rakudo: say !?42 === not so 42 06:57
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«1␤»
isBEKaml TimToady++ ## I see now, though I don't see where I could use them.
TimToady say "True" if .so; 06:58
except method is NYI
moritz_ isn't the method form called .Bool?
TimToady then what's .not? 06:59
moritz_ !.Bool? :-)
TimToady say 42 ~~ :!Bool
rakudo: say 42 ~~ :!Bool 07:00
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«0␤»
sorear TimToady: should it ever be using .balanced?
TimToady rakudo: say 0 ~~ :!Bool
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«1␤»
TimToady sorear: depends on whether it's a quote form that has to count brackets, but for expressions that's handled by normal recursion 07:01
quotes use <starter><stopper> for balanced, but circumfixes can just be recognized anywhere a term is expected in normal code 07:02
so we don't generally need <starter>
sorear What is the point of meta ':' and extra? 07:03
Is the token after ~ always a literal?
moritz_ doesn't need to be, iirc 07:04
dalek meta: r304 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/src/ (2 files):
[perlesque] add buf8 (buf), buf16, buf32, buf64
TimToady and when we do need starter, we can do it by passing the balanced lang into the nibbler, as the quote rules do
moritz_ rakudo: say 'abba' ~~ / . ~ . [b+]/
TimToady yes, the goal must be a literal currently
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«abba␤»
moritz_ TimToady: by spec or by STD.pm6 usage?
TimToady I don't remember why I hung it off the : meta
the spec for ~ is a little bit fossily 07:06
but doesn't require a literal
however, $*GOAL is expected to be a string of some sort, which could, I suppose, be the regex that matches if it's not a literal
at least we don't expect $*GOAL to be the actual thing matched anymore 07:07
sorear could it be a compiled regex fragment?
TimToady well, except that gimme5 currently sets up the <stopper> using the goal string...
but that's just current implementation
we don't use it to match anything anymore, so it's not meaning to compile it 07:08
*ful
sorear implements it badly for now.
TimToady \o/
moritz_ ok
seminar canceled, now I got up early for now reason
dalek meta: r305 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/src/Types/buf.cs:
[perlesque] I guess the bufs need constructors
 07:09
meta: r306 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/src/Types/buf.cs:
[perlesque] oops
TimToady oops, it's tomorrow already, by accident
moritz_ suddenly.
TimToady the shock of it has made me sleepy
so I'd probably better wander off, considering I have to drive to SoCal tomorrow with a vanful of teens... 07:10
er, today
sorear where, and which teens?
moritz_ good night
diakopter lol
TimToady church quiz team
isBEKaml 'night, TimToady ! 07:11
TimToady they won at the district level, so now they're going to regionals
diakopter wait timtoady to see the buf8 of capacity 1,000,000,000
TimToady std: BEGIN { foo() }; sub foo {...}
p6eval std 30845: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'foo' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 114m␤»
TimToady that's better 07:12
sorear TimToady: At the end of a construct which uses a modified language, how does $¢ get turned back into a normal cursor?
TimToady std: sub foo {...}; BEGIN { foo() }
p6eval std 30845: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 111m␤»
sorear currently, I'm talking about ~ 07:13
moritz_ rakudo: say ((3+ *) * 2).(2)
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤»
TimToady std: foo(); BEGIN { 42; }; sub foo {...}
p6eval std 30845: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 111m␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say ((3+ *) * *).(4, 2)
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 2 but expected 1␤current instr.: '_block46' pc 312 (EVAL_1:126)␤»
TimToady sorear: it's reblessed by _BRACKET or _BRACKETr 07:14
:lang used to do a cursor_fresh, which is why we lost the old bindings
now it just reblesses into the new language, and re-unblesses on scope exit 07:15
isBEKaml moritz_: currying? that's in ? \o/
TimToady alternately, BRACKET could have copies bindings up into the old $self
isBEKaml rakudo: say (3 + *).(42);
moritz_ isBEKaml: at least the direct case
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«45␤»
TimToady and that may yet turn out to be corrector from an immutable Cursor viewpoint
*correcter
night all
zzz &
isBEKaml rakudo: say ((3 + *) * *).(42).(5); 07:16
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤»
isBEKaml rakudo: say ((3 + *) * *).(42,5);
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 2 but expected 1␤current instr.: '_block46' pc 312 (EVAL_1:126)␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say (1 + *).WHAT
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Block()␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say (1 / *).WHAT
isBEKaml rakudo: say ((3 + *) * *).(5);
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Block()␤»
rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤»
isBEKaml precedence doesn't seem to work.. 07:17
moritz_ nesting doesn't work
(1+*) returns a Block
isBEKaml rakudo: say (3 + * * *).(42,5)
moritz_ instead of a WhateverCode
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤»
moritz_ same issue
isBEKaml rakudo: say (* + 3 * *).(42,5)
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 2 but expected 1␤current instr.: '_block46' pc 312 (EVAL_1:126)␤»
isBEKaml rakudo: say (* + 3 - *).(42,5) 07:18
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 2 but expected 1␤current instr.: '_block46' pc 312 (EVAL_1:23128766)␤»
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isBEKaml that's supposed to WhateverCode ? 07:18
*be
moritz_ yes 07:19
and that should curry just like * itself
diakopter perlesquel: my $b = buf8.new(); $b[100000000] = 1; say($b.Count); say($b.Size); 07:23
p6eval perlesquel: OUTPUT«100000001␤134217728␤real 1.90␤user 1.42␤sys 0.46␤»
dalek meta: r307 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/ (2 files):
[perlesque] make buf8, buf16, buf32, buf64 work. Add Size getter
isBEKaml moritz_: should * + num work the same as num + * ? I have seen * + * work, though.
moritz_ rakudo: say (3 + *).(5) 07:24
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«8␤»
moritz_ works fine, and should
isBEKaml rakudo: say (* + *).(4,2); say (* + 5).(5);
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«6␤10␤»
isBEKaml So that's indeed a Block() issue. Numifying a Block is indecent! ;) 07:25
moritz_ right :-)
diakopter perlesquel: my $b = buf16.new(); $b[1000000] = 1; say($b.Count); say($b.Size); 07:27
p6eval perlesquel: OUTPUT«1000001␤2097152␤real 1.61␤user 0.03␤sys 0.03␤»
pugssvn r30846 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement ~ syntax
diakopter perlesque: my $b = buf16.new(); $b[10000000] = 1; say($b.Count); say($b.Size); 07:28
p6eval perlesque: OUTPUT«10000001␤33554432␤»
sorear 11%
diakopter perlesquel: my $b = buf16.new(); $b[10000000] = 1; say($b.Count); say($b.Size);
p6eval perlesquel: OUTPUT«10000001␤33554432␤real 0.37␤user 0.22␤sys 0.13␤»
diakopter sorear: that's very impressive. you'll win fer sure. FTW
isBEKaml rakudo: say (3 * *).(42); 07:30
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«126␤»
pugssvn r30847 | sorear++ | [viv] Make method sigs optional 07:31
moritz_ diakopter: I'm curious, do you have a plan for hiding the C# methods from userland at some point? another indirection layer? 07:32
isBEKaml rakudo: enum somenum <a b c d e>; my somenum $temp = 3; say $temp.key; 07:39
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Type check failed for assignment␤current instr.: '&die' pc 18373 (src/builtins/Junction.pir:373)␤»
isBEKaml o.O (NYI ? )
moritz_ rakudo: enum somenum <a b c d e>; my somenum $temp = d; say $temp
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Type check failed for assignment␤current instr.: '&die' pc 18373 (src/builtins/Junction.pir:373)␤»
isBEKaml std: enum somenum <a b c d e>; my somenum $temp = 3; say $temp.key;
p6eval std 30846: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 116m␤»
moritz_ STD doesn't do type checks 07:40
isBEKaml oh, bug?
sorear no
Perl6 type checks (notionally) happen at run time
STD doesn't do run time
isBEKaml not in std, I was asking about Rakudo. 07:41
moritz_ yes, bug
mathw Morning
moritz_ asigning an element element (ie d) should work
moritz_ submits rakudobug
isBEKaml I think, so should assigning a value and getting the corresponding key. 07:42
moritz_ not sure; might need a coercio
n
just like my Int = "3" is an error too
diakopter moritz_: no, b/c perlesque isn't the real userland :D 07:43
isBEKaml but, somenum::d would throw Int
moritz_ diakopter: but the plan is to write a compiler at some point that targets perlesque, right? 07:44
isBEKaml: I'd assume it returns something more than an Int
isBEKaml diakopter: I was curious too, If I didn't need C#, atleast I should need a runtime, right? 07:45
diakopter moritz_: yes in the actual Perl 6 compiler (Sprixel, written in perlesque and targetting perlesque) it'll do all its own dispatch and at least one boxing/abstraction layer on everything
isBEKaml rakudo: enum somenum <a b c d e>; somenum::d.WHAT.perl.say;
moritz_ diakopter: ok, that's what I wanted to know
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Int␤»
moritz_ diakopter: thanks
diakopter moritz_: :D
moritz_ isBEKaml: that might be the reason it doesn't work
diakopter basically it'll be just like rakudo on parrot in that sense. lots and lots of dispatching and wrappers and translators 07:46
07:46 Sarten-X left
moritz_ :( 07:46
diakopter heh
moritz_ it's those parts that make rakudo complicated
I've been digging into several parts of the rakudo guts to try to fix bugs and/or add features 07:47
diakopter I'm fairly sure Perl 6 necessitates such depth
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moritz_ and I found that it's always complicated when there's a mismatch between Perl 6 and parrot 07:47
example: iterators
isBEKaml rakudo: enum Somenum <a b c d e>; Somenum::d.WHAT.perl.say; enum somenum <a b c d e>; somenum::d.WHAT.perl.say; ## S12 says first should return Int while second native type (int). 07:48
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Contextual $*PKGDECL not found␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6;Grammar;add_my_name' pc 44311 (src/gen/perl6-grammar.pir:79)␤»
isBEKaml I was asking about that sometime ago..
diakopter perlesque has an advantage there, since it supports reified continuations, as of tonight.
(the perlesque code generated by a compiler to represent an iterator could use them, I mean)
moritz_: would you like to see an example? 07:49
moritz_ diakopter: yes please 07:50
diakopter perlesque: my $e = sub (FrameBase $f-->int) { say(1); longjmp($f); say(2); return 1}; sub callcc(Callable[:(FrameBase-->int)] $func, FrameBase $frame --> int) { $func($frame); say(3); return 1 }; callcc($e, _cc); say(4);
p6eval perlesque: OUTPUT«1␤4␤»
diakopter you could call that "call/cc of int"
perlesquel: my $e = sub (FrameBase $f-->int) { say(1); longjmp($f); say(2); return 1}; sub callcc(Callable[:(FrameBase-->int)] $func, FrameBase $frame --> int) { $func($frame); say(3); return 1 }; callcc($e, _cc); say(4); 07:51
p6eval perlesquel: OUTPUT«1␤4␤real 0.05␤user 0.03␤sys 0.00␤»
diakopter (without the stage0,1 steps)
07:51 XaeroOne joined, awwaiid left
diakopter $e is the sub that jumps back into the frame that saved its own continuation 07:52
moritz_ takes some time to read and grok :-)
07:52 alanhaggai left
diakopter to actually emulate Scheme call/cc, the frame would need casting to IReturn_System_Int32, so that its Return slot (an int) could be mutated (assigned) in whatever sub wanted to set it 07:53
which is just fine, I just haven't implemented casting/coercion 07:54
sorear moritz_: the logbot has lapsed in #rakudosketch
moritz_ sorear: it parted, because we're now in #phasers instead of #rakudosketch 07:55
sorear I thought that was a temporary thing
#rakudosketch is now registered, anyway
you have +o 07:56
diakopter hee
bed&
isBEKaml rakudo: enum One <a b c d e>; say One::d.WHAT.perl; enum Two <a b c d e>; Two.d.WHAT.perl.say; 08:00
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Contextual $*PKGDECL not found␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6;Grammar;add_my_name' pc 44311 (src/gen/perl6-grammar.pir:79)␤»
isBEKaml :( 08:01
08:02 JimmyZ joined
JimmyZ wow, rakudosketch is back! 08:03
08:04 ejs left
pugssvn r30848 | sorear++ | [viv] Add an error-recovery procedure 08:06
isBEKaml moritz_: the above is right?
08:06 awwaiid joined
moritz_ isBEKaml: I have no idea 08:07
for sure it's a LTA error
isBEKaml rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=72696 08:08
I think it's related to this. Was this fixed at some point of time?
08:08 ejs joined
moritz_ nope 08:09
isBEKaml rakudo: enum One <a b c d e>; enum Two <a b c d e>; say &d;
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Contextual $*PKGDECL not found␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6;Grammar;add_my_name' pc 44311 (src/gen/perl6-grammar.pir:79)␤»
isBEKaml submits rakudobug 08:11
08:12 Ross^ joined
isBEKaml moritz_: do I add it to the above ticket or create a new one? 08:16
moritz_ add it
08:17 dakkar joined
sorear diakopter: With my shiny new error recovery mechanism, 265 statements in STD.pm6 contain untranslatable terms 08:17
(this doesn't count terms for which the translation is wrong, sadly) 08:18
moritz_ it's probably not easy to generate such a count automatically 08:20
pugssvn r30849 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement <?{ FOO }> and related assertions 08:29
cognominal rakudo: say Code.does(Abstraction) 08:31
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«0␤»
sorear hmm. STD.pm6 uses multi dispatch for tweaks ... 08:32
cognominal say :a.does(Pair) 08:35
rakudo: say :a.does(Pair)
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«0␤»
cognominal I am probably doing some abvious mistake.
STD: say :a.does(Pair)
std: say :a.does(Pair) 08:36
p6eval std 30848: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 114m␤»
cognominal std: say 0 08:37
p6eval std 30848: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 111m␤»
moritz_ it's just a syntax checker
cognominal std: say 1
p6eval std 30848: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 111m␤»
cognominal thx, I forgot that
08:56 Ross^ left 09:06 plobsing left 09:08 clintongormley joined
pugssvn r30850 | sorear++ | [viv] Add support for argument quantifiers, refactor parameter 09:14
09:19 jferrero joined, pmurias joined
pugssvn r30851 | sorear++ | [viv] Allow parameters with multiple names 09:19
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pugssvn r30852 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement slurpy parameters 09:24
r30853 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement multiple dispatch 09:33
sorear down to 175 untranslatable terms 09:34
I love the way that viv is actually faster than gimme5 09:35
(assuming STD.pmc is precompiled to Storable)
pugssvn r30854 | sorear++ | [viv] Oops. Forgot an initializer 09:36
sorear I mean 148
I mean 120 09:39
pugssvn r30855 | sorear++ | [viv] Another missing initializer 09:40
09:40 masak joined
masak oh hai, #perl6! 09:40
mberends \o
moritz_ oh hai masak
sorear hello
moritz_ rakudo: my $x = *; say ($x + 3).(5) 09:41
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Use of uninitalized value in numeric context␤invoke() not implemented in class 'Float'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
masak how lovely to see you all today.
mberends :-) it's mutual
09:42 mberends sets mode: +o masak
sorear sleeps 09:42
moritz_ good night
09:43 IllvilJa joined 09:44 cli_ joined
isBEKaml masak: hi! 09:50
masak isBEKaml! hi!
moritz_ watz.nerd2nerd.org/ubuntu.png it seems that Ubuntu doesn't recommend it its own products (at least the 64bit versions)
which is at the same time both sad, and has some encouraging honesty 09:51
cognominal \o 09:52
mberends ubuntu recommends 32 bit for beginners to use 3rd party binary software compatibility, that's all 09:54
cognominal how long 64bit x86 processors have been around? what a shame? or is that it is more memory hungry?
09:54 yinyin left
moritz_ on 64 bit debian I didn't have serious problems with 3rd party binary software 09:55
isBEKaml I believe that's mainly for binary compatiblity and ubuntu's mainly targeted at newbies to Linux.
oh, what mberends++ said. :) 09:56
mberends maybe things like Adobe apps and plugins, JRE, Windows NDIS drivers
moritz_ flash, skype, Mathematica, matlab worked fine (though I had to install some 32bit wrapper libs for skype - but that's easy to avoid if you provide 64bit packages that depend on the ia32-libs)
mberends: ah, the last point might be the most important one
the ndis wrapper
Java and adobe reader also worked fine for me 64bit linux 09:57
mberends beginners -> 32 bit, power users -> 64 bit
moritz_ anyway, I just found it amusing 10:00
Mathematica has both dynamic and lexical scoping
but instead of prefixing each variable with an indicator lex vs. dynamic, the scope is prefixed (Block vs. Module in Mathematicaspeak) 10:01
10:04 cli_ left 10:05 cowyn joined, masonkramer joined 10:07 masonkramer left
mberends moritz_: the rakudo branches split-setting and split-gen-setting-2 seem outdated today, shall we remove them? Any new such work would be better off starting from scratch. 10:08
JimmyZ and also *string branch 10:09
moritz_ mberends: wfm 10:10
10:11 cowyn left
mberends ok, will do those three 10:11
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pugssvn r30856 | pmurias++ | [mildew] added simplified method to AST::Assign 10:53
r30857 | pmurias++ | [mildew] all the pretty print the ast backends are handled by DumpAST
r30858 | pmurias++ | [mildew] add missing file for the m0ld frontend 10:54
r30859 | pmurias++ | [mildew] modify the way backends are handled
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cognominal timtoady, can hyperwhatever closures be call to self? I know, it is designed for multidimensional stuff but I am still living in flatland and see no harm here 11:58
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jnthn just noticed the cheating versions of the + and - for Whatever were left in operators.pm 12:00
jnthn removes 'em. 12:01
colomon my beautiful little ops, removed... sob. ;)
jnthn moritz_: my $x = *; (* + 2) # that should not build a closure.
12:01 kst` left
jnthn gah 12:01
moritz_: my $x = *; ($x + 2) # that should not build a closure.
colomon you mean ($x + 2)
jnthn that one :-)
It's syntactic. 12:02
moritz_ wfm
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jnthn colomon: Yeah, I was like...huh...why'd it build it...then remembered...oh, those cheats. :-) 12:02
pugssvn r30860 | pmurias++ | [mildew] update dependencies
r30861 | pmurias++ | [mildew] fix bug with simplified, add debuging aids to bin/mildew
takadonet morning all
moritz_ as long as (* + 3) * 4 builds one eventuallye
s/e$//
jnthn It does now.
rakudo: say ((* + 3) * 4).WHAT
moritz_ rakudo: say ((* + 3) * 4).(2)
cognominal rakudo: say (* * *).(*,*) # what it does today?
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤»
rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤» 12:03
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p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤» 12:03
jnthn Ah, OK.
Oh, hmm
12:03 pmurias left
jnthn cognominal: That makes little sense. 12:03
cognominal I know :)
moritz_ it multiplies to Whatever-stars
and currently probably curries over *.Numeric 12:04
cognominal but it compiles, I am just curious how it blows in the dispatcher
moritz_ whic returns a Block
colomon "curries over *.Numeric" ?
moritz_ infix:<*>(Any, Any) calls .Numeric on its arguments
that produces two closures
and it then tries to multiply those two closures
cognominal jnthn, I am just like that, I enjoy breaking my toys.
colomon moritz_: errr.... 12:05
moritz_ ending up with multiplying two closures
rakudo: say (*.Numeric).WHAT
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Block()␤»
moritz_ rakudo: my $x = *; say ($x.Numeric).WHAT
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Use of uninitalized value in numeric context␤Int()␤»
colomon yes, but in this case that's the equivalent of the second one there.
moritz_ hm, no
ok, I retract my explanation
colomon rakudo: my $x = *; say $x * $x 12:06
12:06 XaeroOne left
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Use of uninitalized value in numeric context␤Use of uninitalized value in numeric context␤0␤» 12:06
pmichaud good morning, #perl6 12:08
jnthn o/ pmichaud
12:08 betterworld left
cognominal o/ pmichaud 12:08
moritz_ \o
takadonet o/ 12:10
colomon \o 12:11
masak o/ 12:12
moritz_
.oO( we make quite a funny picture here in #perl6 :-)
12:16 XaeroOne joined
masak build fail: gist.github.com/415736 12:16
that's latest Rakudo on latest Parrot, not using --gen-parrot. 12:17
note the suspicious warning on line 5.
any ideas what's wrong? it worked yesterday. 12:18
moritz_ ops_massacre branch merge?
masak if that's in between, then yes, probably. 12:19
building with recommended Parrot now.
moritz_ looks like a typical not-yet-loaded dynop 12:20
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jnthn Aye, almost certainly that 12:22
pmichaud probably the file io dynops
moritz_ investigates 12:23
hopefully fixable with a few .loadlib lines
jnthn moritz_: If that's all it is, then most probably yes. :-)
masak the build works with Parrot r47022. 12:29
rakudo: my class A {}; our class B is A {} # via jnthn++ 12:34
moritz_ weird
p6eval rakudo 982e8e: OUTPUT«Lexical 'A' not found␤current instr.: 'perl6;B;!class_init_11' pc 476 (EVAL_1:212)␤»
masak submits rakudobug
moritz_ I've added a .loadlib 'io_ops'
and I still get syntax errors for printerr
but when I write a small pir file that only consist of that .loadlib, a .main routine and printerr 'foo', it works like a charm 12:35
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jnthn Where did you add the .loadlib? 12:39
moritz_ in src/Perl6/Compiler.pir 12:40
the problem is that the .loadlib fails, silently of course
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moritz_ I guess the dynops aren't installed 12:40
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jnthn sarcasm win :-) 12:46
moritz_++
moritz_ :-)
actually I tried to resists, at first 12:47
jnthn ;-)
moritz_ and then decided that it's such a WTF to fail silently that it warrants a bit evilness
jnthn Yeah, I've been tripped up by that too many times too, and surely mentioned it before.
Long-standing fail.
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pmichaud TT #437 12:49
jnthn "not added to ... <file with generated in its name>" o.O
Oh joy, $dayjob today is tracking down where a character encoding mixup is happening. 12:50
moritz_ guess who reported it back then :-) (the loadlib thing..)
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pmichaud moritz_: yes, I noticed that also (TT #437 author :-) 12:57
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pmichaud is once again annoyed at how many ways we have to introspect information in Parrot 12:59
and worse, there's little consistency
actually, I'll take the rant to #parrot :-)
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jnthn pmichaud: It'd only be preaching to the choir here. :-) :-) 13:04
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dalek kudo: e40ee42 | Coke++ | (2 files):
track the move of some ops to dynamic op libraries, bumping parrot revision.
 13:53
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ajs As promised, I've thrown my URI module up on github. It's currently floating in /ajslib in a clone of rakudo at github.com/ajs/rakudo/tree/ajslib-URI/ajslib/ 14:08
14:08 PerlJam is now known as rakudo
ajs Should I be writing docs in POD or is there something that can read P6 POD yet? 14:09
14:09 rakudo is now known as PerlJam
moritz_ nothing that can read the P6 according to newest spec 14:09
ajs ok thanks
jnthn ajs: Nice! :-)
moritz_ method scheme_path() { gather do { take <URI scheme> } } 14:10
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ajs yes? 14:11
moritz_ that could just be method scheme_path() { return |<URI scheme> }
or without the vertical bar probably
I don't quite understand why you want to return a list of two strings, though 14:12
ajs it's that way for consistency with other methods that return a list of multiple lists. When I tried return [ <a b c>, <d e f> ] it got flattened
moritz_ ah
ajs So it's not the right long-term solution
moritz_ just looks curious :-) 14:13
ajs it does ineed!
indeed even
anyway. off to the paying job. Docs will be written tonight
moritz_ ajs++ 14:14
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diakopter moritz_: 14:43
_ilbot2 to #rakudosketch ?
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masak sorear++ # your work on viv alone makes backlogging worth it! 14:53
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masak I find the meme that one programming language or other can inflict irrevocable mental damage to a programmer seriously quaint, even outdated. what's potentially damaging is sticking to one language, any language, and not exploring other languages at all. 15:14
mathw Yes 15:15
I don't believe I've been scarred for life by starting off in BASIC
Admittedly that might be because I deliberately abandoned everything I learned about program structure, but...
The trick to avoiding that kind of thing is to learn the idioms for every new language and paradigm 15:16
jnthn I started out with BASIC too :-)
masak me too.
jnthn Maybe we're all just damaged in the same way then. ;-)
mathw lol
But I successfully learned Haskell...
which is about as un-BASIC as you can get
masak jnthn: if so, I'm blissfully proud of being damaged.
mathw well except maybe Prolog, because a world where your code can all run backwards is definitely for the deranged 15:17
masak actually, I feel I learned a lot from BASIC. it was mostly Turbo Basic and QBasic, so I guess it's not the flavor Dijkstra raged against.
mathw no
masak fairly little PEEKing and POKEing, overall.
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mathw I did BBC BASIC, which had named procedures and functions 15:17
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mathw so I very seldom used GOTO or GOSUB after I learned about them 15:18
masak mathw: regexps are no less deranged than Prolog.
mathw masak: true
I didn't say Prolog was *bad* :)
It's quite fun, actually
15:18 ash__ left
mathw I used to love how you can use a list append to generate all possible splits of a list 15:19
evaluation by unification
jnthn My primary school had a BBC micro, so BBC BASIC was there I started. A little later, my family got a PC at home, and I hacked in QBasic for a while, and later Visual Basic. Then we Got The Internetz At Home (they were small in those days ;-)) and I discovered Perl...and C.
mathw and non-deterministic results
lots of fun
masak mathw: that's one reason I'm looking forward to 'temp' and 'let', by the way. they will unleash the last little part of insanity in regex control flow :P
15:19 Xaero left
mathw did BBC BASIC -> FORTRAN -> Pascal -> Object Pascal -> C -> C++ -> Java -> PHP -> Perl -> Haskell -> Prolog -> C# -> Python -> Boo, but would no longer claim to be competent in all of them 15:20
And I'm only really fluent with C++ and Perl these days 15:21
Must do more Haskell
Oh I dabbled in QBasic and Visual Basic at one point as well 15:22
And even some JavaScript
mathw -> home
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masak did BASIC -> Pascal -> crappy C++ -> Java -> Perl -> Haskell. or something. I'm not proficient in many of those. 15:26
jnthn I had a Pascal and a C book in each hand at the bookshop and could only afford one, and I thought Pascal syntax looked ugly, so I got the C one. :-) 15:29
masak lol 15:30
jnthn C has turned out to be useful. :-)
isBEKaml did BASIC so long ago that he can't remember anything more than REM, LET and PRINT. :) 15:31
[Coke] misses playing WUMPUS.BAS on parrot. 15:32
PerlJam taught himself C by translating C programs back and forth
masak isBEKaml: that's complete in some sense, I guess. :)
jnthn QBasic had a lovely PLAY built-in where you could describe musical notes and it'd play little tunes. :-)
PerlJam (from/to pascal)
masak jnthn: Turbo Basic too! 15:33
jnthn Oh, cool!
.oO( Perl 6 modules I should(n't?) write )
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isBEKaml masak: lol, when I saw Wargames recently, the odd teletype fonts and free password texts somehow reminded of my days with BASIC and BLOCK LETTERS. :) 15:35
masak I agree with _why. it's somewhat of a lost age, that created a lot of intrepid programmers for the 'right reasons'. www.advogato.org/article/671.html 15:36
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cognominal jnthn, seeing this, would you have learnt FORTH : vividpicture.com/aleks/atari/forth.jpg 15:50
Zardoz FORTH :)
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jnthn cognominal: Phwoar! 15:57
TimToady rakudo: say 2 [*] 3; 15:59
p6eval rakudo e40ee4: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "say 2 [*] "␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 528 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:348)␤»
TimToady that would be LHF for anyone with parser skilz
then we could write * [*] *
masak what was the semantics of `2 [*] 3` again? I only remember it was something I didn't expect. 16:01
jnthn masak: Same as 2 * 3 :-)
masak oh right. 16:02
diakopter I started out in BASIC too
masak well, in the case of 3 being a list of one element, it does what I expect :P
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masak anyone here didn't start out in BASIC? 16:02
isBEKaml But, isn't [*] an infix on a list ?
diakopter QBASIC and then TI-BASIC 16:03
TimToady S03:4580 is stated very carefully
allbery_b TRS-80 Level II BASIC, shortly followed by Z80 assembly language :)
<-- cruft 16:04
TimToady isBEKaml: to answer your question specifically, only in term position 16:05
and term position never expects infixes
so the [op] form is special there
and you can't drop the [] there because S03:4582 is only about where an infix is expected 16:06
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TimToady in essence, [op] is a no-op metaoperator, but we give it reduction meaning if used where a term is expected 16:07
isBEKaml TimToady: I'm looking S03, meta ops more carefully now. So, @a [op] @b, we need brackets. But when doing $a [op] $b, we may _optionally_ use brackets ? 16:08
TimToady no
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TimToady it's always optional in infix position 16:08
it's only required if you use it as a listop 16:09
cognominal LHF?
Left Handed Form?
TimToady Low Hanging Fruit
cognominal :)
TimToady so [] is required in [*] 1..$n 16:10
because there's nothing before it to make it expect an infix
isBEKaml TimToady: ah, i was wrong in using @a [op] @b, it should have been [op] @b. TimToady++ 16:11
allbery_b btw, the scariest anti-FORTH argument I've ever seen was the source code to Conference Tree :)
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diakopter masak: did you see I got buf8/16/32/64 working 16:17
now they just need an api 16:18
masak diakopter: I did. cool! let's talk more about that.
diakopter they can grow only to half your available contiguous ram, since resizing is done by copying
perlesquel: my $b = buf8.new(); $b[100000000] = 1; say($b.Count); say($b.Size); 16:19
p6eval perlesquel: OUTPUT«100000001␤134217728␤real 2.83␤user 1.61␤sys 0.13␤»
diakopter bleh 16:20
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TimToady is there any support for uint2 strings for compact genomics? 16:22
.oO(EnumStr)
 16:23
well, more likely Buf[DNA-Base] 16:24
diakopter not yet, but it's a smoShiftiness 16:25
perlesque: my $b = buf8.new(); $b[100000000] = 256; $b[99999999] = 256; say($b.Count); say($b.Size); say($b[99999999])
masak sometimes you'd like to encode any()-junctions of bases too, because of insufficient information.
sorear TimToady: did you get my pm on elsif?
p6eval perlesque: OUTPUT«System.InvalidCastException: Cannot convert type from 'System.Int32' to 'System.Byte'␤ at TriAxis.RunSharp.Conversion+Invalid.Emit (TriAxis.RunSharp.CodeGen g, System.Type from, System.Type to) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 ␤ at TriAxis.RunSharp.CodeGen.Convert
..(TriAxis.RunSh…
TimToady yes
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diakopter hm, I wonder why it could convert the int 0 16:26
maybe it's special-cased
or int 1
weird.
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diakopter System.Byte is uint8 16:26
mberends perlesque: my $b = buf8.new(); $b[100000000] = 255; $b[99999999] = 255; say($b.Count); say($b.Size); say($b[99999999])
p6eval perlesque: OUTPUT«100000001␤134217728␤255␤» 16:27
diakopter oh lol.
oh yeah. runsharp does find the smallest in which it can fit it
TimToady lol pounds of fun # South Pacific allusion
diakopter mberends++ mberends++ mberends++ mberends++ mberends++ mberends++ mberends++ mberends++ 16:28
mberends heh, just for an off-by-one
diakopter I seem to have a lot of those. 16:29
TimToady that's because you're pushing the boundary conditions
masak :P 16:32
diakopter thinks about uint1 and uint2
perlesque: my $bb = System::Collections::Specialized::BitVector32.new(0); my $s1 = System::Collections::Specialized::BitVector32.CreateSection(6); my $s2 = System::Collections::Specialized::BitVector32.CreateSection(3, $s1); $bb[$s2] = 3; say($bb[$s1]); say($bb[$s2]); say($bb); 16:40
p6eval perlesque: OUTPUT«0␤3␤BitVector32{00000000000000000000000000011000}␤»
diakopter masak: BitVector32 can be wrapped by a class that can set up a compact array of BitVector32s 16:43
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diakopter to store uint1 and uint2 compactly 16:44
masak diakopter: ok; nice.
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diakopter pmurias: say smth 16:44
pmurias: hi 16:45
pmurias diakopter: hi 16:46
phenny pmurias: 26 May 17:06Z <diakopter> tell pmurias no I don't know what's wrong with that bug; I recently slowed down my rate of deluding myself into thinking I have more round tuits than I actually have...
pmurias: 26 May 23:53Z <diakopter> tell pmurias I looked at paste.lisp.org/display/100307 and it doesn't work just b/c of the non-working expression parser - my $poss = self.positionals; $poss.Add($pos); # works
pmurias: 00:10Z <diakopter> tell pmurias I made it so return type is optional on constructors
pmurias: 04:21Z <diakopter> tell pmurias try this: my $e = sub (FrameBase $f-->int) { say(1); longjmp($f); say(2); return 1}; sub callcc(Callable[:(FrameBase-->int)] $func, FrameBase $frame --> int) { $func($frame); say(3); return 1 }; callcc($e, _cc); say(4);
pmurias diakopter: when adding features you should add tests that check they work
diakopter yeah yeah :P 16:47
oh... do they not work?
pmurias that we will see 16:48
diakopter heh
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pmurias untested things generally don't 16:50
diakopter pmurias: well, you'll need to infer the semantics of _cc and longjmp, as I've written them
perlesquel: my $e = sub (FrameBase $f-->int) { say(1); longjmp($f); say(2); return 1}; sub callcc(Callable[:(FrameBase-->int)] $func, FrameBase $frame --> int) { $func($frame); say(3); return 1 }; callcc($e, _cc); say(4);
p6eval perlesquel: OUTPUT«1␤4␤real 0.05␤user 0.05␤sys 0.01␤»
pmurias longjump? 16:52
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pmurias i'm not sure longjump is the right name for the thing that invokes the continuation 16:53
diakopter: would it be difficult to use $f()?
diakopter hrm 16:54
I suppose not
$f would have to be a FrameBase, obviously
pmurias longjump is parsed as a function call?
TimToady but $f() looks like it returns
if the semantics are really $f.goto 16:55
diakopter yes
goto $f would work too
TimToady then $f() would be a disservice to the reader
diakopter since the parser is type-checking as it parses, it can do all sorts of fancy analysis like that 16:56
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diakopter $f.goto() could work too 16:57
diakopter waits for consensus 16:58
pmurias $f.goto seems ok 16:59
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diakopter it would need "special-cased/formed" in the parser (just like longjmp), but that's ok 17:00
TimToady then prefix is probably slightly preferred
diakopter goto $f ?
TimToady replace_my_reality_with $f
:) 17:01
really $f
diakopter I tried to think through implementing an iterator using such continuations, and my brain got all squiggly
TimToady backtrack $f
diakopter it'd be much easier to just use closures as state machines. 17:02
pmurias invoke-continuation $f
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TimToady continue $f 17:02
sorear I /love/ the 25 second turnaround with ./viv -5 --thaw STD.store
TimToady \o/ 17:03
diakopter curious how big is STD.store
pmurias sorear: that skips the parsing?
sorear diakopter: 11MB
pmurias: yes
diakopter cool
masak enter $f
TimToady I-mean't $f 17:04
diakopter I like goto $f since it's a "non-local goto"
TimToady er, s/'//
isBEKaml rakudo: say (* * 3 * 4).(42);
p6eval rakudo e40ee4: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Block'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤»
pugssvn r30862 | sorear++ | [viv] Kill $self->SUPER::re_ast in favor of RE constructors, some smart.
diakopter though backtrack connotes, too. also fallback
TimToady goto $f seems fine to me
masak TimToady: do you really have an "n't" button? where is it? 17:05
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TimToady actually, I have to type a sequence to get that character 17:05
masak I think I know less from reading that answer :P 17:06
diakopter ooo negative communication
TimToady your reality has been replaced with a matrix 17:07
allbery_b finger macros suck :)
TimToady :)
for some reason I find it very hard to type the word "per"
masak just type 'superfluous' and trim the word down. :) 17:09
TimToady yes, but that l doesn't seem to want to trim
pugssvn r30863 | sorear++ | [viv] NIH Carp::Always in a dynamic scope to avoid the syntax error problems 17:10
allbery_b .oO { ltrim() doesn't operate on the right }
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TimToady rofl 17:11
that was ofl
diakopter lofl 17:12
(but)
pugssvn r30864 | sorear++ | [viv] Fix previous commit 17:13
TimToady the DM has decided you're really lofl good 17:20
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diakopter pmurias: ok I changed it to use goto $f syntax 17:26
[Coke] ponders a meta-op sigil instead of bracing. 17:28
dalek meta: r308 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/ (3 files):
[perlesque] change continuation-continue syntax to use the goto prefix
 17:29
diakopter perlesquel: my $e = sub (FrameBase $f-->int) { say(1); goto $f; say(2); return 1}; sub callcc(Callable[:(FrameBase-->int)] $func, FrameBase $frame --> int) { $func($frame); say(3); return 1 }; callcc($e, _cc); say(4);
p6eval perlesquel: OUTPUT«1␤4␤real 0.05␤user 0.05␤sys 0.00␤»
pugssvn r30865 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement $var in regexes 17:34
sorear down to 91
masak \o/ 17:35
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[Coke] 91..? 17:41
diakopter 91 vast nodes remaining?
sorear yes 17:42
not 91 *types*, but 91 untranslatable nodes in STD.pm6
TimToady: for your bug queue - $<foo>=<bar> is misparsed, the RHS is left *as text* in the AST 17:43
[Coke] vast?
five-ast?
sorear viv's AST for STD parses
[Coke] danke. (I had googled but got nothing. =-) 17:44
masak rakudo: class A { has @.contents handles <elems> }; say A.new(:contents(1, 2, 3)).elems 17:45
p6eval rakudo e40ee4: OUTPUT«1␤»
masak submits rakudobug
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jnthn masak: handles nyi 17:47
masak it used to be i :(
until further notice, I consider *all* regressions bugs. 17:48
there is code out in the app cheese that uses handles.
hm, perhaps an example with a method not already in Any would be better... :) 17:50
rakudo: class A { has $str handles <uc> }; say A.new.uc 17:51
p6eval rakudo e40ee4: OUTPUT«Method 'uc' not found for invocant of class 'A'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
Tene rakudo: say "foo".uc 17:53
p6eval rakudo e40ee4: OUTPUT«FOO␤»
Tene rakudo: class A { has $str handles <uc> }; say A.new(:str("omg cats")).uc
p6eval rakudo e40ee4: OUTPUT«Method 'uc' not found for invocant of class 'A'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
Tene 'k
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diakopter I blaughed diakopter.blogspot.com/2010/05/perl...tions.html 18:05
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masak diakopter++ # blol! 18:06
pugssvn r30866 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement :i 18:07
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awwaiid laughed because the last paragraph indicates that they implemented plain coroutines rather than fully reifiable continuations? 18:08
(er... blaught)
diakopter oh :( 18:09
they == me
awwaiid well it sounds awefully cool anyway, don't get me wrong :)
diakopter actually though, that's fixable, by creating a Continuation type that holds a FrameBase and an int representing the instruction pointer 18:10
the locals in the stack frame are obviously still the same "lexpad" though
hm, maybe I should do that
awwaiid: there can be more than "instance" of a coroutine, right? 18:12
awwaiid yes, many instances, but you can only use each one twice and you can't clone one to make another 18:13
er
you can only use each one once :)
each time you invoke it, it can get a little further, but when you re-invoke it it just does that -- gets further. no starting over.
diakopter what would it mean to clone one?
pmurias diakopter: how are the continuations in perlesque different from normal noes?
awwaiid cloning would let you "start over" at the same point in the continuation 18:14
diakopter oh
pmurias: b/c they're not cloned as awwaiid is describing
they can be, though
TimToady think of it as a fancy closure that, when you call it, also installs its dynamic scope
awwaiid and hence clonable subroutines, in my view, are equivalent of normal (full) continuations 18:15
er, s/subroutines/coroutines/
man, typeo city today
pmurias diakopter: forgot to backlog enought to find the blogpost 18:16
TimToady but differs from $c = {...} closure insofar as $c only snapshots the lexical scope, not the dynamic scope
diakopter .Instruction is already an accessible field of each FrameBase. if I just add a Clone method (abstract/overriden) to FrameBase, I could make the cloning up to the user code
pugssvn r30867 | pmurias++ | [mildew] expand test
diakopter the compiler can trivially generate each frame class' Clone method
pugssvn r30868 | pmurias++ | [mildew] handle \n inside m0ld string literals 18:17
awwaiid sounds cool to me :)
diakopter perlesque: my $e = sub (FrameBase $f-->int) { say(1); say('Instruction: ' ~ ($f.Instruction)); goto $f; say(2); return 1}; sub callcc(Callable[:(FrameBase-->int)] $func, FrameBase $frame --> int) { $func($frame); say(3); return 1 }; callcc($e, _cc); say(4); 18:19
p6eval perlesque: OUTPUT«1␤Instruction: 3␤4␤»
diakopter so, in order to capture a "full continuation", one would do: _cc.Clone() 18:20
as far as the lexpad locals, reference types (word size slots) are copied trivially, and value types (word size or bigger) are block-copied trivially 18:21
and of course the instruction pointer is copied
also arguments 18:22
awwaiid probably there is someone more into proper language who can advise you better than I on the way to say it, but yes, sounds good, especially the instruction pointer bit :)
diakopter this also means that _cc can go back to being proper Perl 6, which was "frame" 18:26
I think.
pugssvn r30869 | pmurias++ | [mildew] converting an empty block to SSA form works 18:27
pmurias diakopter: seem to be exactly the same way we planned to implement full continuations on smop 18:28
pugssvn r30870 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement :lang
pmurias * seems
sorear 45... 18:29
pmurias: does smop run with the P6 stack on the C stack? 18:30
diakopter guesses so 18:36
diakopter but is not certain
pmurias sorear: smops keeps it's own stack 18:37
pugssvn r30871 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement :s and :!s
sorear is confused how this "polymorphic eval" thing works
diakopter pmurias: smop uses a trampoline? 18:38
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diakopter Edit: awwaiid pointed out that these are coroutines, not full-blown continuations, since they aren't cloned. So I'm adding to FrameBase an abstract .Clone() method that will be generated by the compiler, so that a cloned continuation can be restarted from where it was originally captured (or cloned again). :) 18:41
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awwaiid "since they aren't cloned" should be more like "since they aren't cloneable" 18:44
lovely
pmurias diakopter: yes 18:47
moritz_ back
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pugssvn r30872 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement () 18:56
sorear 10...
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patrickas how do I get the current script name in perl6 ? 19:02
moritz_ rakudo: say $*PROGRAM_NAME
p6eval rakudo e40ee4: OUTPUT«/tmp/ItL7C63EYG␤»
patrickas thanks moritz_! 19:03
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pugssvn r30873 | sorear++ | [viv] Skip sigspace in ~ reassociation (this really wants to be done in the parser) 19:05
sorear 6...
token special_variable:sym['$<'] { 19:06
TimToady: How does that parse? The symbol is a Seq object?
TimToady no, it's just exactly the same as :sym<$\<> 19:09
sjohnson hi TimToady
TimToady or looking at the other way, all symbols are sequence objects, but most are degenerate sequences of 1 19:10
a circumfix is either < ( ) > or ['(',')']
but they mean the same thing
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sorear I see 19:13
pugssvn r30874 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement :sym['x'] form 19:17
TimToady we used to allow ('(',')') but :() is now reserved for sigs, so we avoid :sym() too 19:18
dalek meta: r309 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/src/Grammar/Grammar.cs:
[perlesque] implement barebones .Clone method generators
 19:20
pugssvn r30875 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement < a b c > form 19:24
19:27 patrickas left
pugssvn r30876 | sorear++ | [viv] Implement :r (wrongishly) 19:29
sorear ok, we're down to 1 die during STD.pm6 conversion
diakopter whee!
sorear and it's a STD misparse which I've already sent to TimToady
(<a>: <b> is treated as three atoms) 19:30
moritz_ this is Perl 6; workarounds are allowed :-)
masak s/allowed/required/
diakopter s/required/definitive/
masak the place where theory meets practice has a high density of workarounds :)
sorear the ratchet handling is rather confused too. I need to refactor this 19:31
moritz_ what is <a>: <b> supposed to mean? 19:32
Su-Shee new best practices concept: "programming by teasing" - work around features instead of actually using them.
sorear moritz_: don't allow backtracking into <a> 19:33
moritz_ sorear: and how is that different from <a> : <b> ?
masak Su-Shee: it's worked on me :)
Su-Shee masak: it'll found a totally new school and style.
moritz_ "don't allow backtracking into anything on the left"?
sorear moritz_: it's not
masak teasism.
moritz_ so what's wrong with parsing it as three tokens?
sorear : should parse like a quantifier 19:34
it's always attached to the atom on its immediate left
<a> <b> : <c>
: only affects <b>
moritz_ huh, I didn't know that
so if <c> fails, <a> is allowed to backtrack?
Su-Shee masak: also known as "feature foreplay".
sorear yes 19:35
moritz_ recently wrote an email without using the letter "a". It was tough.
sorear <a> <b> :: <c> ~~ [<a> <b>]: <c>
moritz_ ah 19:36
masak Su-Shee: feels more like 'feature diet'...
moritz_ has ::: a similarly nice equivalence?
Su-Shee masak: which is essentially the same thing.. pleasure of anticipiation or feeding hunger by dieting.. so it's feature foreplay - sparing the joy of using the actual feature until the last moment. ;) 19:39
(well, when it's actually there ;)
(hence the name the joy of six. ;)
masak this is an intriguing topic. I wish I had more to say about it. :) 19:40
Su-Shee we leave the rest to the mind. ;)
masak foreplay is mostly in the mind, so that's appropriate, I guess.
moritz_ Su-Shee: would you write a short manifesto for thejoyofsix.org? :-) 19:41
TimToady well, :: really means to commit to this LTM match these days
masak perhaps renaming the early adopter phase into 'the foreplay phase' would attract many more interested people... :>
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moritz_ :-) 19:42
masak but, alas, that too might be promising too much... :P
sorear TimToady: oh? 19:43
masak TimToady: does S05 reflect that?
diakopter hm
moritz_ does that mean "if this LTM branch fails, the whole LTM fails"?
jnthn masak: Shouold we produce a Swedish translation of "the joy of six"? ;-) 19:44
moritz_ and since LTM spans named rules transitively, can cause calling subrurles to fail immediately? 19:45
masak jnthn: I see what you're alluding to. that's not a bug, it's a feature. :) us Swedes get to say 'sex' a lot more often than other people. :)
TimToady moritz_: nod, nod 19:46
jnthn masak: I've reached the point where I can count in Swedish and keep a straight face now. :-)
moritz_ jnthn: actually in German it's similar: 6 = sechs, but pronounced basically the same as "sex" 19:47
TimToady moritz_: but it is not yet specced
moritz_ which is why I sometimes seem to say "Perl sex" :-)
masak it's like that in Latin too.
Su-Shee moritz_: how long? couple of sentences?
moritz_ Su-Shee: yes
Su-Shee done if a few secs. ;) 19:48
TimToady there's a placeholder ::> in my mind for the old 'then' interpretaion, but that is negotiable
STD doesn't use it anywhere
sorear ::> is in gimme5...
dalek meta: r310 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/ (4 files):
[perlesque] enable copying of locals & arguments for stack frames' generated
 19:49
TimToady arguably, :: and ::: are a bit backwards from a scoping point of view, since :: will typically commit to more than just the current rule
but it could also be less than
from a huffman point of view, it's correct as it is
jnthn masak: Closely related, my Swedish teacher informed me that nummer has a meaning besides "number" too. :-) 19:50
moritz_ isn't ::: mostly a fossile from pre-proto-rule times?
jnthn At least in local dialect. :-)
[particle] will prefix:[!] apply to :: and :::?
TimToady no
[particle] phew 19:51
moritz_ (or maybe I'm messing that up in mind)
TimToady there are still times you might want to commit to the current rule
[particle] oh, that could have been a moritz no, probably was.
jnthn masak: I've since been told to use räknar to be on the safe side. :-)
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moritz_ STD.pm6 uses ::: only once (and mentions it another time in order to parse it) 19:52
masak jnthn: 'nummer' is a slang euphemism, yes. but it seems slightly dated to me. 'räkna' is a verb, so you can't use it instead of the noun 'nummer'. :) 19:53
jnthn masak: Aww. 19:54
Can't believe I'm not being taught the shiny new euphenisms. :-)
masak we can remedy that.
just saying I don't hear 'nummer' that often in its non-safe meaning. 19:55
Su-Shee moritz_: sushee.no-ip.org/joyofsix.txt first .. draft. ;)
masak Su-Shee: I'm not tired of waiting. :) maybe rephrase it to something containing 'giddy with anticipation'? :) 19:58
dalek meta: r311 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/src/Perlesque/Declarations.cs:
[perlesque] clone named locals in stack frames' .Clone methods
masak Su-Shee: s/but just/than just by/ 19:59
TimToady sorear: test a patch to parse : as a quantifier
with the added benefit of carping if there's no atom to the left 20:00
Su-Shee masak: added/corrected :)
masak Su-Shee: I like the general tone of the text. we need more playful stuff of this kind. Su-Shee++
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masak Su-Shee: two subsequent paragraphs start with 'But '. suggest changing sencond one to 'Granted, ' or 'You know, ' or 'Certainly, '. :) 20:01
Su-Shee ah, good, yes.
masak I wonder if the final line shouldn't be a footnote in small print on the site. just to get out of the www.xkcd.com/541/ dilemma :) 20:02
Su-Shee "it's also true though that certain things just can't be ..." I've got now. 20:03
masak worksforme.
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Su-Shee I've recently started to work with a haskell book by o'reilly - they also know how to construct a good myth. ;) the foreword goes like this "well noone knew haskell but a few and they avoided success at all costs".. ;) 20:05
moritz_ saved a copy locally; will try to set up a website over the weekend 20:06
Su-Shee moritz_: reload, moved the corrected version to the url.
diakopter Su-Shee: so the hook is that the reader is being inducted into an elite society, an inner circle
masak moritz_: release early, and the rest of us will help! :)
moritz_ masak: that's my hope 20:07
Su-Shee diakopter: essentially yes. slackware does the same thing.
moritz_ masak: I'm not good designing websites, least of all joyful websites
Su-Shee: which book? "Real world haskell?"
Su-Shee if perl always gets the highest level of "users satisfied with their programming language", slackware gets the same for distributions
moritz_: yes.
20:08 IllvilJa left
moritz_ I have that at home too, somehow got distracted after chapter 4 or so 20:08
but I do plan to read the rest of it too
Su-Shee it's a really good book. more dense and detailed than "practical lisp" but the same approach.
moritz_ and one day I'll beat GHC's type checker, and actually write a useful haskell program that *runs* 20:09
Su-Shee the haskell book also got the mixture of high level academics "that's the proper way" and real world every-day coding and fun right.
moritz_ agreed (from what I've read so far)
Su-Shee I'm still somewhat sad that pugs went to sleep. 20:10
Tene Su-Shee: sad enough for you to work on it?
Su-Shee Tene: I would if I knew even the slightest bit haskell. (hence the book.)
also, work is in my way. I managed to write exactly one class in 5 months. for a presentation as a comparison to moose. 20:12
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pugssvn r30877 | lwall++ | [STD] parse : as a quantmod requiring previous atom, but give different error if missing 20:14
masak for what it's worth, I've also been thinking about reviving Pugs. but presently my Haskell-fu is too weak. 20:15
TimToady O'reilly should start a new series: Haskell Feet First
[particle] masak: do you need more things to do??!?!! 20:16
diakopter Perl 6 Bowels First
masak [particle]: no. :) 20:17
Su-Shee moritz_: oh, also at least one perl 6 special interest subject now got its title, I'd say: "safer six" (perl 6 security ;)
Tene masak: why thinking about reviving pugs exactly? 20:18
TimToady $ six
The program 'six' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing:
sudo apt-get install gambc
aww
[particle] بيرل 6 الذيل الأول
masak Tene: it was once the furthest-along implementation. if it were active again, it might grow to be an equal to Rakudo in some respects. 20:19
diakopter awwaiid: I finished .Clone, it seems.
TimToady tell me that doesn't say Kama Sutra...
masak Su-Shee: there's also hobby programming, in the form of 'casual six'... 20:20
Su-Shee masak: *hahaha* :)
[particle] perl 6 tail first
Su-Shee "perl 6 books? yeah right over there in the adult section.." ;)
TimToady malware is of course sixual abuse 20:21
Su-Shee *hehehe* :)
masak "Perl 6 took long to get there, but what a finish!"
diakopter about to deop everyone 20:22
dalek meta: r312 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/src/Grammar/Grammar.cs:
[perlesque] finish Continuation (FrameBase)'s .Clone method (for full
 20:23
jnthn "Perl 6 - it's coming!"
.oO( ...I almost submitted a talk with a title like that... )
 20:24
Su-Shee
.oO(we're never ever going to make it into schools.. ;)
jnthn founds a Perl 6 training company called SixEd
Tene Title for a talk about migrating to p6, "Trans-sixual Perl" 20:25
and then you can work in "pre-op" and "post-op"
masak lots of six-related puns today. almost as if there has been something pent-up... :)
TimToady s/proto/toys/
diakopter std: superset superset of superset
p6eval std 30876: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routines:␤ 'of' used at line 1␤ 'superset' used at line 1,1,1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 114m␤»
Su-Shee working with perl5 in 6 is metro-six then?
20:25 Guest17566 joined
masak Guest37008: you wouldn't believe what we're talking about! 20:26
oops, wrong guest.
diakopter as long as you're home bysix
TimToady you have a six sense of humor
jnthn Guest17566: Ignore masak, it's just a bot
;-)
Su-Shee *hihi* :) 20:27
masak Guest17566: I am a bot. but I'm still nicer than purl.
20:27 Ross left
saaki heh 20:27
moritz_ lol 20:29
at least in your safe mode, masak
masak ;)
diakopter I was gonna say. is there a CPAN distribution named protection? 20:30
masak moritz_: you reminded me on this: bash.org/?10739 20:31
s/on/of/
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masak so who should I talk to if I would like dalek to publish commits to the 'buf' branch of Rakudo? Infinoid? diakopter? 20:44
jnthn masak: How long lived will that branch be? 20:46
masak: That is, will there be another one shortly after this one is merged in with a different name?
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masak jnthn: quite probably. hm. 20:47
jnthn Could always just get all commits on any branch reported. 20:48
Tene you could just keep re-using the same names.
diakopter masak me
masak: me
Tene masaks diakopter.
diakopter OUCH 20:49
masak OUCH
diakopter: is it difficult? can I help?
diakopter no I'm almost finished.
masak \o/
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[Coke] nopaste.snit.ch/20667 20:50
masak Tene: nuking the branch and creating a new one is fine, unless there are people downstream pulling.
[Coke] ww.
masak [Coke]: thanks!
[Coke] de nada.
jnthn [Coke]: Isn't there some string builder PMC that'd make that a bunch more efficient? 20:53
[Coke] jnthn: already covered in #parrot.
masak [Coke]++ jnthn++ 20:54
[Coke] just s/String/StringBuilder/, then $S0 = sb at the end.
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jnthn OK, great. :-) 20:54
20:54 dalek joined
[Coke] dalek on parrot just reports all branch, btw. it's easier. 20:55
20:55 Su-Shee left
[Coke] masak, would you like a slightly updated sample, or are you good? 20:58
20:58 _3coder joined
masak [Coke]: I'm good, thanks. 20:58
how do I turn the Parrot string I get back from the Q:PIR into a Perl 6 Str? 21:04
[Coke] hurm. does $foo = Q:PIR { .... %r = $S0} work? 21:05
masak it rewards my with a Null PMC access.
granted, I returned the value directly rather than put it in a variable? would that make a difference? 21:06
s/\?/./
mberends masak: try prefixing it with a ~
21:06 krr left
masak mberends: just compiling such an attempt :P 21:06
[Coke] ah, then you don't need to cast it in the PIR, either. (you can just hand back the StringBuilder, and ~ should DTRT.)
jnthn masak: Feel free to paste it with its Perl 6 surroundings. :-)
masak moritz_: why was Cool made into a class rather than a role? was it so that we could write 'class MyClass is Cool'? :) 21:07
[Coke] ponders installing haskell later.
masak jnthn: sure thing. adding ~ didn't work :/
21:12 _3coder left
masak jnthn, [Coke]: storing it in a variable first miraculously worked! \o/ 21:13
jnthn \o/
jnthn afk for a little bit
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masak jnthn: my devious plan of using find_lex to pull in the list of Ints from the attr didn't work. the error I get is `shift_integer() not implemented in class 'ParrotIter'`. what's the 'correct way' to loop through a set of ints from a p6 attribute? 21:24
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dalek meta: r313 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/ (2 files):
[perlesque] clone Caller also :)
 21:51
masak time to switch off for the day. 21:52
today, I got Str.encode working again, and almost got Buf.decode working :)
a promising start.
21:52 Guest37008 left
masak will blog about it tomorrow. 21:52
'night. 21:53
21:53 masak left
jnthn phenny: tell masak at the moment easiest to shift a PMC and then $I0 = $P0 it. We could implement shift_integer and shift_string in ParrotIter though. 22:01
phenny jnthn: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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TimToady offline for about 8 hr... 22:12
&
jnthn o/ 22:13
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BrowserUk ? 22:58
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sorear Should : terminate LTM? 23:14
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diakopter sorear: no 23:17
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sjohnson ... hi 23:28
jnthn Jag har en öl. Let's see if I can do any little thing in Rakudo before I sleep. :-)
sjohnson: hi! 23:29
sjohnson jnthn: hello, other-windows-desktop-user-like-myself 23:30
jnthn :-)
sjohnson others exist u 23:31
oops
i meant to say, others like us are seeming to do a lot of good things. like the GnuWin32 project, and msysgit.. which i recently tried
which comes with its own win32 compile of perl, under the target name of "msys" which is cute
the one i use though says MSWin32-x64-multi-thread.. from strawberry perl. </rant> 23:32
jnthn I've mostly stuck with the ActiveState one on my dev box, mostly because Parrot pulls compiler hints from Perl configuration, and they build with the same compiler I use to build Rakudo. 23:34
oh crap...don't say the Parrot folks broke the build. :-/
sorear Does the end of an alternation terminate LTM?
jnthn: they did, and they fixed it too! 23:35
apparently they still have commit bits
jnthn sorear: On Windows?
sorear Or, in other words, 'aab' ~~ / [ a | aa ]: ab /
jnthn goes to read the commit log
ah, seems that a commit touched the problem file 23:37
jnthn svn ups and crosses his fingers
diakopter try double-crossing them
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diakopter sorear: it terminates ltm for that alternation, but not for any parent ltm alternations 23:38
diakopter retracts... not enough throughput to think through it properly atm 23:39
sjohnson ot question: has anyone here tried doing atmel chip (or similar) programming using Perl instead of C? 23:41
sorear that's.... not very OT 23:50
the Perl 5 VM is over 1MB of executable code
how big is your atmel chip?
[Coke] jnthn: was it fixed? 23:53
jnthn [Coke]: yes
[Coke] <whew>
jnthn [Coke]: Will commit the bump after spectest
[Coke]: Some mess up involving inconsistent linkage and platform_interface.h 23:54
sorear How about this?
regex x { a || aa }; regex y { ab }; token z { <x> <y> }
erm
regex x { aa || a }; regex y { ab }; token z { <x> <y> }; "aab" =~ /<z>/ 23:55
S05 is ambiguous
sjohnson sorear: sorry didnt see you wrote back. i was thinking of small things.. maybe like 256k.
sorear then Perl (5) is not going to work for you
sjohnson but the computer i'd use would be a modern one, so if it's easier to write a programmer thing in perl than C, then i'd rather do that
sorear Perl 4 might
Perl 6 probably will
jnthn sorear: I'm not convinced that would match.
sorear jnthn: S05 states that ratcheting contexts cut after quantifiers and alternations 23:56
sjohnson sorear: oh sorry, i kind of meant.. like. use perl as the language, to burn 30k worth of data, to a flash chip
jnthn sorear: Since in token z there's an implicit cut after each thingy
sjohnson not put perl on the chip
... unless that isn't what you meant either :(
jnthn So IIUC it'd cut after <x> which is then committed to aa
sorear jnthn: it's not clear on whether ratcheting contexts cut after any other token
sjohnson if it has access to the serial ports, wouldn't perl 5 work?
jnthn Maybe I've got it wrong though. I'm the wrong person to ask really, but that's what I'd expect.
sorear which matters for assertions
jnthn Aye
I'm going more on experience and feeling than knowledge. ;-)
sorear I'm really too much of a rules lawyer for P6 23:57
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jnthn Nah; having people help us get the spec clear is a Good Thing. :-) 23:59

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