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Set by moritz_ on 28 December 2010.
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snarkyboojum cosimo: ping 00:06
lue hello world o/ 00:07
takadonet lue: yo
snarkyboojum hellue
sorear phenny: tell masak Assuming you went the Debian route, you're missing something with a name like libmono2.0-cil 00:08
phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
snarkyboojum Niecza build error on a clean checkout on OS X FWIW - gist.github.com/772167 00:11
was building a few days ago
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snarkyboojum I'm having a strange issue where running a test for one of cosimo++'s perl-facter modules is causing the perl6 process to consume memory until killed manually - has to do with blib being included in $PERL6LIB prior to running prove - gist.github.com/772170 00:19
not an issue with the module that I can tell, as it passes tests ok, seems to be some weirdness with using the blib version of the module when running prove for this one module 00:20
colomon I had problems with facter going berserk as well. 00:28
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snarkyboojum colomon: ah good to hear it's reproducible - it basically stops me from being about to use neutro's smoker.pl 00:32
colomon: interestingly, it works if I remove the compiled PIR version of Facter::Util::Resolution in the blib... 00:34
blib directory even
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colomon sorry, my computer was taken over for Thomas the Tank Engine watching. Back in a minute.... 00:56
snarkyboojum ah - turns out it's just the PIR version of this module causing perl6 is blow up and nom memory until manually forces to close 00:59
forced 01:00
dalek rixel: ba0654b | diakopter++ | sprixel/ (12 files):
Add Complex (Complex64), BigRational, and BigInteger as types easily accessible from perlesque code, to be used as REPRs.
 01:03
tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....ics_tablet 01:06
snarkyboojum phenny: tell cosmio, FWIW - it looks like the compiled PIR version of Facter::Util::Resolution, when used, causes Rakudo to use excessive amounts of memory until it is killed
phenny snarkyboojum: I'll pass that on when cosmio is around.
snarkyboojum phenny: tell cosimo, but works OK when the PIR version is removed and the .pm version is used 01:07
phenny snarkyboojum: I'll pass that on when cosimo is around.
diakopter re ba0654b, note that those types have built in implicit conversions to all the other built-in CLR value types 01:08
perlesque: my $a = Complex.new(4452, 3325); say($a); say($a.GetType) 01:18
p6eval perlesque: OUTPUT«(4452, 3325)␤System.Numerics.Complex␤»
diakopter perlesque: my $a = Complex.new(4452, 3325); my $b = Complex.new(2,8); say($a); say($a.GetType); say($a / $b); say($a * $b) 01:21
p6eval perlesque: OUTPUT«(4452, 3325)␤System.Numerics.Complex␤(522.117647058824, -425.970588235294)␤(-17696, 42266)␤»
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diakopter tiz speedy and stuff 01:22
diakopter must now debug why generic types from CLR corlib are getting thrown into *my* new assembly 01:26
sorear ? 01:28
diakopter I dunno. 01:29
more info in a bit
my new ModuleBuilder, I mean
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diakopter fixed 01:35
now to see whether that fixes a seemingly-unrelated error on mono
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Quadrescence i.imgur.com/qTLPM.gif 04:06
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diakopter um 04:16
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coldhead that is powerful awesome, Quadrescence 04:31
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Quadrescence www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZr3_Ac_nB4 06:16
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typepeter Is it possible to implement perl6 in C? Though it's difficult.... 08:23
sorear sure 08:26
perl5 was, after all
typepeter thank you,sorear :D 08:27
sorear the main issue will be the grammar - nobody except au knows how macros should work with a non-Perl grammar
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typepeter because of the dynamic structure of perl6?I meant, maybe written in C,it might occur many problems in the runtime? 08:30
as i knew,everything in C lang is a value or a pointer (just in pure C) 08:34
so we can consider everything in C is a pointer to executeable block(function) or a pointer to data,or just pure values. 08:37
In perl6,everything is a reference to an object
but,what's the difference between implementation of perl5 and perl6? 08:39
plobsing typepeter: are you implying implementing Perl 5 would be easy? I think Topaz teaches us something different. 08:46
typepeter Sorry,I don't imply that...I just think about the difference 08:47
woosley maybe implement Perl6 in C is a super hard work 08:48
plobsing you'd greenspun a lot. if you accept that upfront, you would probably come up with a VM. 08:49
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typepeter plobsing: thank you:D I'll study more about it 08:56
moritz_ A compiler is "just" text processing with some kind of output, often binary 08:57
usually writing text processing programs in high level languages is more (programmer time) efficient than writing it in C 08:58
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mathw you could implement it in assembly language if you wanted to... but it'd be rather painful :) 09:03
cosimo snarkyboojum: cool, thanks 09:07
phenny cosimo: 01:07Z <snarkyboojum> tell cosimo but works OK when the PIR version is removed and the .pm version is used
cosimo morning, #perl6
moritz_ good morning zebras!
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sorear hi cosimo 09:11
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masak morning, #perl6 09:24
phenny masak: 00:08Z <sorear> tell masak Assuming you went the Debian route, you're missing something with a name like libmono2.0-cil
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masak ok. 09:25
typepeter Hence,There is no necessity to implement it in C...?(if it's just for the running performance) 09:26
Su-Shee hey you've got paid a nice compliment. compared to python 3 and ruby 2 some people like to have your productivity :) 09:27
(you = you perl 6 developers)
masak :)
Su-Shee: url?
moritz_ typepeter: the choice of implementation language will likely have only minor impact on the run time speed 09:28
Su-Shee masak: still the two threads about my article in reddit/hn. (reddit -> "Get something the size of Perl6 designed and implemented in two years? Python 3 extended an existing VM and was a "relatively mild improvement" (GvR), yet took longer than that.
moritz_ typepeter: the characterstics of the run time system are much more important
Su-Shee I'd like some of your productivity juice!
typepeter moritz_ : thank you:) it means,we care more for the flexibility,and reuse 09:32
moritz_ typepeter: that's not what I said 09:33
typepeter: we do too, but it's just that a good JIT might beat a classical runtime environment, independently of the implementation language
or a good metho cache
or Whatever
*method 09:34
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pmurias typepeter: what do you mean by implement it to C? 09:35
masak Su-Shee: ah, that argument shows up now and then. 09:36
masak now has a compiled niecza again o/
sorear++
Su-Shee masak: well it is a compliment I'd say. :) 09:37
pmurias typepeter: compiling perl6 to C is possible and has been done before, but the problem is you have to have a lot of runtime stuff?
s/?//
moritz_ std: s/?// 09:38
p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Quantifier quantifies nothing at /tmp/kPldIdd_Jn line 1:␤------> s/?⏏//␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 119m␤»
masak Su-Shee: something between that and a defense for Perl 6 taking some time to emerge. 09:40
typepeter pmurias: i meant,"implement an interpretor in C",or "a backend in C for Perl6" 09:41
pmurias the second one has been done 09:42
typepeter moritz_ : Mm,I know
pmurias typepeter: and parrot is the first one
but Perl 6 doesn't map directly onto C (garbage collection, dynamism, multimethods) so it's really C+a runtime library 09:44
typepeter: with sufficent type inference we could translate my $foo=123 into int foo=123 in some cases, but that's a hard problem 09:45
typepeter: and even if we eventually have a smart enough compiler we might get better performance at first targeting a very fast vm so we don't have to care about optimising the garbadge callector 09:48
typepeter pmurias: I know,but...if by using hash implementation,it might be: %local{foo}=123 ,then might be right.
pmurias: I see. 09:49
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Bin_Eliazer Helo, I heard perl6 will be ready in 2011, is that true? if not, how of perl6 has been implemented according to the specs? 09:55
masak Bin_Eliazer: in some senses Perl 6 is "ready" today. in other senses, it won't be ready in 2011. 09:58
Bin_Eliazer: when you ask how much of Perl 6 has been implemented, in which units would you like your answer. are you content with the reply "quite a lot"? :) 09:59
Bin_Eliazer masak: I mean in sense of "I can tell my programmer: Perl v6.0.0.0 is out, optimized and releable.. lets start using it!" 10:01
masak Bin_Eliazer: based on those criteria, you might want to wait a bit. but recall that language usage is not an on/off switch. it takes some time to get used to a platform, during which it doesn't have to be "complete". 10:02
Bin_Eliazer: example: I've been using Rakudo Perl 6 for two and a half years now, writing all kinds of applications: web apps, regex engines, compilers...
I wouldn't say Rakudo is fast, by any standard. but not all problems require speedy solutions. 10:03
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gfldex slow software leave you move time to think :) 10:04
masak and gives you more reason to choose a smart solution :)
Bin_Eliazer: the current implementations target "early adopters", people who are curious enough about Perl 6 to withstand some bumps and bruises.
typepeter masak: could I know what kind of web apps is better in perl6?:P 10:05
Bin_Eliazer masak: I tried personally translating our reporting system from perl5.6 to perl6.. it is fun to write in perl6.. and.... it is fun.........!
typepeter but,mod_parrot seems couldn't work under win32 ...
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masak typepeter: I wouldn't claim any technological *advantages* yet, mind you. I'm saying it's possible. 10:06
typepeter: I imagine the advantages will come, though.
Bin_Eliazer masak: but perl is about features and speed.. and I think that speed with be the issue that will stick to perl6 for a long time.. 10:07
masak Bin_Eliazer: I think you're right.
Bin_Eliazer: there are smart people around here working hard on the problem of speed.
sorear typepeter: I think you need to study the concept of Turing equivalence some more.
masak people in the Parrot camp, some Rakudo devs, and the entire Niecza team are all working on performance in various ways. 10:08
gfldex and the power of perl6 as a language of niceness wont show up until editors support it properly 10:09
strict types allow quite a few shortcuts
Bin_Eliazer masak: I am sure the results will be great.. and am sure everybody is doing his best.. for now.. I have admit that the syntax and programming style of perl6 is unique and very enjoyable.. :) 10:10
apejens What is Niecza?
moritz_ apejens: a Perl 6 compiler
niecza: say "hi"
p6eval niecza v1-114-g656d5f3: OUTPUT«hi␤»
apejens so another implementation than rakudo?
moritz_ right 10:11
niecza compiles to the CLR
ie mono or .NET
apejens aha
typepeter sorear: why...? 10:19
sorear typepeter: You doubted that Perl 6 in C was possible 10:20
Bin_Eliazer By the way.. a quetion for those who have been developing perl6 since the early 2000's.. Do you think ParrotVM could be the choice that is delaying the birth of the new language?
masak Bin_Eliazer: I think that would be an oversimplification at best. 10:21
sorear the birth of Perl6 wasn't delayed
it's in infancy, not overdue
masak Bin_Eliazer: how long would *you* take to completely redesign a successful 13-year-old scripting language? :)
...including providing a performant implementation for your new design. 10:22
Bin_Eliazer masak: another 13 years I guess :)
sorear a lot of people are expecting a delivery date, but what's really happinging is a date of majority... which are completely arbitrary and largely in the eye of the beholder
masak Bin_Eliazer: something like that :)
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masak Bin_Eliazer: meaning we still have 3-6 years left, depending on how one counts. 10:22
Bin_Eliazer: Rakudo is four years old. go back and see what you could and could not do with Perl back in 1991. 10:23
flussence I'd personally consider p6 ready for "general" use once someone ports Frozen Bubble to it (and it's playable).
typepeter masak: sorry...there's a misunderstand...I meant , is there any good webapps framework in perl6. i'm not doubting you... 10:24
masak typepeter: sorry if I got defensive too fast :)
typepeter: I'm using a 250-line static web page generator written in Perl 6 for my blog.
typepeter: it's still in active deveopment, but it works today.
Bin_Eliazer masak: You mean perl in 90's is worse than perl6 now? 10:25
masak Bin_Eliazer: in some senses, yes.
Bin_Eliazer masak: In that case I disagree..:)
masak feel free. 10:26
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Bin_Eliazer masak: nothing personal :) I admire your and everybodys work for the open source community.. I wish I could have a part in that too... 10:29
sorear I thought the same thing half a year ago 10:31
Then I got tired of wishing
Bin_Eliazer sorear: I have a business to run... :) maybe after retirement..
masak sorear++ # JFDI 10:32
pmurias sorear: what does newboundvar do? 10:33
typepeter masak: cool :D 10:34
sorear pmurias: handles the active aspects of binding 10:36
e.g. in my $foo ::= $bar newboundvar is in charge of stripping the container
my $foo := funct; # newboundvar makes sure funct returned >=Any, and makes the value not interpolate 10:37
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sorear my @foo := funct; # newboundvar makes the value do interpolate 10:37
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sorear newboundvar also handles binding autovivification 10:37
pmurias hmm, it would be nice to have that documented in docs/nam.pod what all the various flags to that do 10:38
sorear yes, yes it would be 10:41
sorear doesn't like documenting volatile stuff
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typepeter sorear: but, implementation in C seems no matter with Turing Equivalence...if we use the concept and coding a interpretor in C,why it's impossible? I jsut think about that it's possible,not because it's better solution. 10:48
moritz_ typepeter: I think sorear's point was more that it doesn't really mattter which language it's implemented in 10:49
it's possible, but it makes more sense to use whatever language is best suited 10:50
typepeter sorear: Thank you:) I just think about it.I'm not doubting you... Thank you for your patient...I got a lot from you:)
moritz: Mm,I see.Thank you:) 10:56
dalek ecza: 2227cd8 | sorear++ | v6/ (8 files):
[v6] Second batch of fixes
 10:57
ecza: 8c23155 | sorear++ | v6/ (5 files):
[v6] Third batch of fixes
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masak rakudo: my $number = 24 but role { method Str { self.flip } }; say $number; say ~$number 11:11
p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«24␤24␤»
masak hm.
flussence Should .indent assume a default of "*"? It's not in spec, but it seems like an obvious choice.
masak rakudo: my $number = 24 but role { method Stringy { self.flip } }; say $number; say ~$number
p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«24␤24␤»
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masak flussence: this was discussed the other day. my contention is "no". 11:11
flussence ok.
masak flussence: we can always introduce that default later if it turns out it hurts too much not to have it. 11:12
it would be more difficult to remove it if it turns out to have been a bad idea to have it.
flussence good point.
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flussence (wrote 4 more tests on the bus, whee) 11:12
masak I think .indent(*) is a nice function, but I don't consider it the "default" behavior of .indent 11:13
dalek ecza: 300f88c | sorear++ | v6/ (2 files):
[v6] Fourth batch of fixes; say "Hello, world" runs!
 11:15
sorear -> sleep
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masak \o/ 11:15
snarkyboojum any ideas why I'm getting this error when trying to build niecza from a fresh checkout? 11:17
gist.github.com/772167
masak snarkyboojum: huh. I just did a pull, and things build here. odd. 11:18
snarkyboojum masak: that was the case for me a few days ago too :| 11:19
moritz_ can also build fine here
snarkyboojum I wonder if it's a mono version thing.. bizarre 11:20
masak snarkyboojum: what version of Mono do you have?
snarkyboojum 2.6.4.0
masak should be fine, then. 11:21
snarkyboojum if I revert to niecza say, 7 days ago, things build 11:22
apejens time to bring out the git bisect powertool? :p 11:23
snarkyboojum aha - the culprit was github.com/sorear/niecza/commit/43...d68bbdf127 11:26
since wildcards were introduced my setup doesn't want to build Niecza :(
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snarkyboojum phenny: tell sorear, since commit 4365d61 my system can't build Niecza 11:27
phenny snarkyboojum: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
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masak snarkyboojum: if you're ambitious, you might even create an issue on github. 11:31
or I can do it.
snarkyboojum masak: that sounds like work :O
masak: would do me good to learn how to do that :P
masak oh, it's easy. 11:34
github.com/sorear/niecza/issues 11:35
just paste in the relevant IRC log. four-space indent makes a <code> block.
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snarkyboojum masak: cheers - just lodged one 11:51
masak snarkyboojum++ 11:52
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dalek p-rx: cb33a76 | bacek++ | src/setting/ResizablePMCArray.pm:
Remove redundant pirop signatures. PAST::Compiler is smart enough to handle it as is.
 12:35
p-rx: f11a416 | bacek++ | / (2 files):
Properly handle unscoped multi methods/subs
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arnsholt Whee. I think my solution to p1 works now =D 12:37
dalek p-rx: b1a8289 | bacek++ | src/stage0/ (4 files):
Rebootstrap files
moritz_ arnsholt: how many working solutions do you have? 12:50
colomon I'm pulling my hair out on p4. I've already sent a solution for it to masak++, but I can feel a better solution in the back of my brain, and can't figure out how to code it up. 12:52
masak smiles 12:53
moritz_ I not only feel that my solution is sub-optimal, I *know* it 12:55
ie I found a case where it doesn't play The One winning move
masak still a few days to go.
dalek ecza: 2df11fb | pmurias++ | cl-backend/backend.lisp:
added binding and a couple of hacks to the clisp backend
 12:56
ecza: c290ade | pmurias++ | docs/nam.pod:
document prog and sink nam ops
ecza: acf4f57 | pmurias++ | cl-backend/backend.lisp:
proper binding and assigment interaction in the common lisp backend
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colomon I believe my current solution is pretty optimal in the end game, but extremely stupid about getting there. 12:57
moritz_ colomon: where does the "end game" start?
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colomon moritz_: If there's nothing bigger than a run of six stones left, I believe my program will always win if it is possible. It just has limited smarts getting there. 12:58
moritz_ colomon: ok
well, that's not too complicated :-) 12:59
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takadonet morning all 12:59
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moritz_ I know that my program misbehaves when there's just one "island" (consecutive run) with length 10 left 12:59
the winning move is it split it into 2 islands of length 4 each 13:00
maybe I should recursively explore all solutions, and look for a winner 13:01
or some dynamic programming
arnsholt shuts up
masak I wish you all good luck in this endeavour.
arnsholt Thank you =)
moritz_: I have two working solutions ATM 13:02
masak your solutions have already brightened my life in unexpected ways. I hope there will be mamy more as we approach the deadline.
arnsholt And a pretty good handle on how I'll solve p4, if no actual code
moritz_ hopes his mult MAIN('test') { ... } was inspiring 13:03
s/mult/multi/
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colomon moritz_: I'm curious why one run of 10 is a terrible problem. If nothing else, seems like it would be easy enough to write a special case for it in your code... 13:04
moritz_ colomon: yep, but then my ego would suffer
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moritz_ colomon: if my AI is worse then me at playing the game, I sucked at writing the AI 13:05
and special casing is just like playing it yourself
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flussence random thought - it'd be interesting if rakudo had a flag to print each statement as it executes... right now it runs slow enough that it'd be possible to follow in realtime 13:06
moritz_ flussence: that would make a nice blog post :-)
colomon is starting to think moritz_'s solution must be radically different from his...
afk # breakfast
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arnsholt colomon: Yeah, it's definitely completely different from what I'm planning on as well 13:10
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apejens is there any difference in a grammar between regex, rule, token etc? 13:35
arnsholt Yes
flussence whitespace, mostly
arnsholt In rules, whitespace becomes <.ws>
jnthn regex backtracks
arnsholt token and rule don't backtrack 13:36
jnthn rule and token don't
If you're writing a language parser, you mostly want rule and token (for performance reasons)
apejens I'm still struggelig with my "almost-textile/markdown, but not quite" parser from before the weekend :) 13:38
arnsholt apejens: S05 has the full details. Last bullet point of perlcabal.org/syn/S05.html#Regexes_...ng_strings 13:39
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apejens ok, thanks 13:41
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apejens I think I might have asked this on friday as well, but I'm fuzzy on the memory bits: gist.github.com/02da976d5e03b700ce3f 13:58
basically, I'm trying to store a rule-name in a variable, and pass that to parse as :rule<$var>
but I get a strange exception
jnthn :rule<foo> treats foo as a literal 13:59
try :rule($var)
moritz_ or if your variable happens to be called $rule, :$rule also works 14:00
apejens ahh, thanks
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flussence Another .indent question: should { $?TABSTOP=8; ("\t" ~ ' 'x7).indent(1) } eq "\t\t"? 14:47
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arnsholt is enjoying p4 so far 15:12
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tadzik ~ 15:21
colomon %%
flussence ??? ZZZ !!! 15:22
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huf wait, ??? !!! exists now? 15:25
what's it do?
flussence rakudo: say ???
p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«Stub code executed in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/N7Sh0EDhDw␤Null PMC access in type()␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/N7Sh0EDhDw␤»
flussence rakudo: say !!!
p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«Stub code executed␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/v8G9UXytOQ␤»
tadzik it's like ..., but different :)
huf oh those
i thought it was an alternate ternary
so what, ZZZ is what?
flussence std: ...?????!!!!!
p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤» 15:26
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colomon wait, which one generates the Null PMC?! 15:26
flussence ZZZ is a very slow/inefficient Z in that context
rakudo: my $a = ???; say '1'; say $a; say '2'; 15:27
p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«Stub code executed in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/CIy1euNJuq␤Null PMC access in isa_pmc()␤ in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/CIy1euNJuq␤»
flussence huh.
rakudo: say ???.WHAT
p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«Stub code executed in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/JgjhEFLw5p␤Null PMC access in find_method('WHAT')␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/JgjhEFLw5p␤» 15:28
jnthn Think that's a known issue
??? throws a resumable exception.
But evaluates to null when the thingy is resumed.
colomon jnthn++
flussence hmm...
rakudo: try { ???; CATCH { say 'whatever' } }; say 'alive'; 15:29
p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«whatever␤alive␤»
flussence oh, basically it's just a radioactive exception right now.
moritz_ rakudo: CATCH { say "OH NOEZ" } 15:30
p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: ( no output )
moritz_ rakudo: CATCH { say "OH NOEZ" }; die "hard"
p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«OH NOEZ␤» 15:31
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jnthn die "hard" :D 15:31
I'm not sure CATCH should be catching warnings, btw.
moritz_ I'm sure it should not 15:32
jnthn Aren't they control exceptions?
moritz_ right
rakudo: CATCH { say "not me" }; return "ORLY?"
jnthn I thought we fixed that stuff.
p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: ( no output )
jnthn Ah, OK. It doesn't get return now but still noms warnings.
moritz_ rakudo: sub f { CATCH { say "not me" }; return "ORLY?" }; say f
p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«ORLY?␤» 15:33
moritz_ \o/
flussence rakudo: use Test; plan 1; do { warn; flunk; CATCH { pass; } }
p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
flussence I broke it :(
15:34 wtw left
flussence (I'm using something like that to test the bit where .indent is supposed to warn on) 15:34
moritz_ you can use Test::Util to spawn another process, and capture its STDERR
flussence rakudo: my Int $outdent = 2; my $leading-ws = token { ^ ' ' ** 0..$outdent }; 15:39
p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Only integers or '*' allowed as range quantifier endpoint at line 22, near "$outdent }"␤»
flussence I can't figure out what the right way to do this is...
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flussence std: my Int $outdent = 2; my $leading-ws = token { ^ ' ' ** 0..$outdent }; 15:42
p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed range at /tmp/VuXOcLlwAt line 1:␤------> 2; my $leading-ws = token { ^ ' ' ** 0..⏏$outdent };␤ expecting quantifier␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 124m␤»
moritz_ flussence: it's simply NYI
my $outdent = 2; my $out_re = eval " \{ ^ ' ' ** 0..$outdent \}"; say so ' foo' ~~ $out_re 15:43
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moritz_ rakudo: my $outdent = 2; my $out_re = eval " \{ ^ ' ' ** 0..$outdent \}"; say so ' foo' ~~ $out_re 15:43
p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
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moritz_ huh 15:43
moritz_ too distracted for debugging 15:44
flussence rakudo: my $outdent = 2; my $out_re = eval "token \{ ^ ' ' ** 0..$outdent \}"; say so ' foo' ~~ $out_re
p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
flussence missed the regex keyword :)
moritz_ erm, yes :-)
15:46 ashleydev left
flussence
.oO( why is there a minmax but no divmod? )
 15:52
(oh, obvious. minmax is chainable) 15:53
colomon if you really want divmod, it's easy enough to write your own.
moritz_ on i386 there's a CPU instruction that calculates both div and mod of two integers in a single instruction 15:54
sadly no programming language I know of exposes that to the programmer (except assembly of course, but that doesn't count as a "language" IMHO) 15:55
plobsing moritz_: FORTH has divmod IIRC
moritz_ plobsing: makes sense 15:56
mathw but do any FORTH implementations implement it in hardware on i386?
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plobsing mathw: it wouldn't be terribly hard to do just that (for a FORTH implemented on i386). they tend to expose much of the underlying machine. 15:59
an interesting combination of power and simplicity (a local optimum IMHO)
masak idea for a talk: trying out different programming language implementations, adopting the mindset "how can I subvert this system into doing something it wasn't designed to do?" :) 16:01
arnsholt masak: Well-volunteered ;) 16:02
masak yes, I meant for myself. :)
gfldex isnt perl6 subverting itself in that manner?
plobsing is there something perl 6 was not designed to do? 16:04
daxim www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2Rvh8VG3o8 # how to
Su-Shee do the dishes?
flussence run perl 7 code?
Su-Shee good evening everyone.
huf most things not yet invented?
mathw take the cat to the vet#
although I suppose you could, given sufficiently sophisticated hardwaqre, write a perl 6 program which would negotiate a way to the vet with a cat carrier on board
huf what, there's no vet method?
mathw starting of course with some fancy visual-recognition libraries 16:05
gfldex can cats run perl6?
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daxim diveintomark.org/archives/2002/11/2..._turned_30 # it is said the manual way involves sharp claws and prodding to see whether the beast is still alive 16:06
tadzik perl6 can run cats
github.com/tadzik/perl6-Acme-Meow/
masak latest in cat-based technology!
flussence but can cat cat a cat?
gfldex was thinking along this line: images.wikia.com/fallout/images/d/d2/FNVRex.png 16:07
tadzik doggy!
daxim looks like straight outta en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Boy_and_His_Dog 16:08
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gfldex close, it's fallout 3 16:08
mdxi that was a *terrible* movie :)
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tadzik it's a novel adaptation, they rarely are good 16:10
colomon short story, actually. ;) 16:12
tadzik s/they/the novel adaptations/
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colomon wonders if the rest of the book that "A Boy and His Dog" was supposed to be chapter 2 of ever got written. 16:13
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mama21mama hi 16:43
masak mama21mama: hi! 16:44
mama21mama gtranslate> "only test the bot which logs" 16:45
masak blinks
flussence <marquee>s 16:46
masak makes sure his spacer gifs are ok 16:47
flussence masak: I tried to ask before but I think it got lost; should indent collapse spaces to tabs as well as expanding them?
arnsholt masak: Oh, how I wish I had +o now so I could kick you ;)
masak arnsholt: 哈哈 16:48
flussence: could you give a concrete example? my brain feels really small right now.
flussence "\t\t".indent(-1).indent(1) eq "\t\t", or "\t "? 16:49
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masak I think the spec is clear on that already. 16:52
the latter.
flussence that makes it easier :)
masak flussence: can you motivate the former from S32/Str? if so, then we need to strict it up a bit.
flussence mainly the "consistent with existing whitespace on the line", but I guess the "added" part rules out collapsing spaces. 16:53
masak reads S32/Str 16:54
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masak right. since the line has both a tab character and spaces, at that point, spaces are added. 16:56
arnsholt How hard would it be to get Perl6MultiSub to dump the signature the candidates are being matched against when MMD fails? 16:57
masak though we do have a problem in that it says that the spaces are added "after each logical newline". they're not -- they're added at the end of the indent.
arnsholt: doesn't it do that already? 16:58
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arnsholt Only the sigs of the candidates 16:58
Not the type-signature of the arglist
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masak oh! right. 16:59
yes, I've been wanting that, too.
arnsholt Which would be helpful right now, since I've no idea why my MMD fails =)
I'm looking at src/pmc/perl6multisub.pmc but it's not exactly a simple piece of code to dive into
jnthn It's simpler with beer. 17:04
;)
arnsholt I can imagine ^^
If you don't mind, I'll poke you for some guidance about it at some later date
Right now I have to go
jnthn arnsholt: Sure :) 17:05
arnsholt Cool 17:06
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StylusEater_work Su-Shee: thanks for inspiring me to brush up on perl 17:31
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Su-Shee \o/ :) 17:33
tadzik Su-Shee++ 17:34
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tadzik Su-Shee: where did you find the blogpost, ooc? 17:34
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Su-Shee tadzik: which blogpost? 17:35
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tadzik bah, that was supposed to be for StylusEater_work 17:35
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StylusEater_work tadzik: HN 17:36
tadzik: ooc? I found it on HackerNews (y combinator). 17:37
tadzik StylusEater_work: "out of curiosity" I meant
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StylusEater_work tadzik: sorry, bit rusty. :-) 17:37
Su-Shee StylusEater_work: so, how much brushing up do you need? ;) 17:39
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takadonet Layla_91: hey 17:40
Layla_91 takadonet: helo! :D 17:41
tadzik hey Layla_91 17:42
Layla_91 tadzik: hey! :D I feel I am becoming famous here! :D 17:43
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Layla_91 tadzik: I am preparing few notes and questions about classes.. but first I must have dinner or mom will kill me! :P :D Will be back very soon :) 17:44
tadzik :) 17:49
bah, Perl 6 has a 'get' sub
Dancer is not gonna be Dancer anymore :(
or is there a way to "cover" the existing one?
Su-Shee overriding it? :) 17:50
flussence more-specific signature?
tadzik sub get(Pair $x) is export {
flussence that's how mkdir(:p) works...
StylusEater_work tadzik: subclass and override it
tadzik StylusEater_work: subclass what?
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tadzik flussence: hmm, right. Even I'm the one who wrote File::Mkdir :) 17:51
StylusEater_work tadzik: can't you write a class that extends the base class where get is located ... then define a get subroutine in your class?
tadzik StylusEater_work: it's a sub in Perl6, not a method
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colomon it's a method too, of course. 17:52
rakudo: say $*IN.get
tadzik hmm, is export is not working as I expected
p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«Land der Berge, Land am Strome,␤»
tadzik rakudo: say &get.WHAT
p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«Multi()␤»
tadzik oh, a multi? No problem then 17:53
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tadzik rakudo: my $a = sub { "asd" }; say $a() 17:56
p6eval rakudo bdbf3f: OUTPUT«asd␤»
tadzik hrm
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tadzik oh 17:56
Perl 6, I have something interesting for ya :) 17:58
wklej.org/id/454346/
what does it look like?
Su-Shee like a method based web framework and not a restful one ;) 18:00
tadzik perldancer.org/
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Su-Shee I know. :) 18:00
tadzik but! It's not Perl 5 18:01
saaki sinatra?
tadzik not quite :) 18:02
moritz_ looks like Mojolicious
(::Lite)
Su-Shee they all look like sainatra :)
tadzik It's a minimal implementation of Dancer in Perl 6
wklej.org/id/454352/ 18:03
Su-Shee nice!
takadonet nicely done
tadzik is preparing a blogopost, another one in a "look, it's awesome" fasion
colomon \o/
tadzik now the fun is, it's ~~
Su-Shee (what have I done.. ;) 18:04
tadzik it's the freakin ~~, so Junctions, Regexes, bla bla bla
Su-Shee: not you ;) I did this a few times before, see my grammar dispatching posts
moritz_ wants postfix:? for argument lists 18:05
tadzik that's what I'm into
I think it's doable to parse it, and dynamically create a Redex
moritz_ so $closure($var?) would mean "supply this variable if the closure accepts it, and if not leave it empty"
tadzik hmm 18:06
it's possible?
I mean, is it P6?
jnthn Module. :P 18:07
tadzik hm, sub($x) is forbidden? 18:08
jnthn (And yes, I know, Rakudo doesn't let you write a module to do that just yet.)
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jnthn moritz_: What's the use case you have for it, ooc? 18:09
moritz_ jnthn: I thought about tadzik's dispatch example, and I thought that get rx{^'/id/' (\d+)} => sub($/) { say $/ } could avoid re-matching 18:10
tadzik $/ is what I'm working on atm
moritz_ jnthn: and then I thought about writing the dispatcher, and that it certainly shouldn't force the user to accept a positional in the signature
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moritz_ jnthn: so it would be nice to call it $callback($/?) # yay, line noise! 18:11
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jnthn :P 18:12
moritz_: I worry about about sticking more complexity into calling, tbh. It's a hot path that's already got plenty to do.
moritz_ jnthn: fwiw it wasn't a well thought-out proposal, just a whim 18:13
jnthn: more p6l-ish throwing around ideas :-)
jnthn moritz_: You could always implement a helper to do something like this too.
tadzik how to get The Positional Parameters Mathed from $/?
jnthn Using introspection. :)
Apart from introspection is bad. ;)
The interaction wiht multis probably gets fun too. ;)
moritz_ tadzik: do you mean the positional captures?
tadzik moritz_: si 18:14
jnthn $/.list
Or I guess @$/ does that...yay line noise! :)
moritz_ @$/ is NYI - would need to be @($/)
jnthn Ah
tadzik :[ 18:15
hmm, something fails
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tadzik wklej.org/id/454360/ -- could you take a look? Visiting /foofoo says "regexes! I got foofoo" 18:18
so it's the whole string, not the mathed part
moritz_ because you pass in $/, and not $/.list 18:19
or |$/.list
what about |($/.list, $/.hash) 18:20
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tadzik oh, right 18:21
|$/.list
LOL PERL IS SO UGLY!!!!11
dukeleto tadzik: I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER ALL THE PUNCTUATION 18:22
tadzik moritz_: there is $/.hash? 18:24
Method 'hash' not found for invocant of class '' 18:25
StylusEater_work tadzik: seems weird to want to respond to /foo(.+)/ ...
tadzik StylusEater_work: why? 18:27
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Su-Shee shouldn't in perl 6 a router aka url parser be based on a url grammar...? :) 18:28
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StylusEater_work tadzik: I'd imagine you'd want something more concrete... an actual resource /get/record/1 /upload/record/1 ... etc. 18:31
tadzik: if you want to do something like foo(.+) ... why not implement a default handler that will parse the values for you as opposed to have the routes defined with wildcards? 18:32
tadzik: I guess it's just a matter of style.
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tadzik StylusEater_work: that's a matter of me not porting it yet :) 18:36
StylusEater_work: that'd be /get/:what/:id/ in Dancer 18:37
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sorear good * #perl6 18:44
phenny sorear: 11:28Z <snarkyboojum> tell sorear since commit 4365d61 my system can't build Niecza
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diakopter ohi 18:47
dalek ecza: f5e81fb | sorear++ | Niecza.proj:
Revert "Use wildcart dependencies in build system"

This "cosmetic" change broke snarkyboojum's build.		 18:50
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PerlJam tadzik++ dancer in perl 6 -- awesome! :) 18:54
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tadzik loliblogged! ttjjss.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/bailamos/ 18:57
moritz_ tadzik++ 18:58
tadzik I'm just advertising it between Dancer people. They attitude towards Perl 6 was usually "well, mberends is writing the port, right?" 18:59
maybe that will poke them a bit :) 19:00
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dalek rixel: 6b30134 | diakopter++ | / (16 files):
generic types instantiated with in-progress custom types. <relief/>
 19:08
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Layla_91 helo to all! :) 19:25
tadzik hi
TimToady howdy doo 19:26
diakopter dy 19:27
Layla_91 tadzik: I am a little confused by the class example.. (though it is funny :)).. I have a couple of questions about it.. if you want I can paste the example code somewhere before asking so you can look it up quickly..
StylusEater_work who do I talk to about a failed post through 'make spectest_smolder' 19:28
moritz_ StylusEater_work: to us :-)
StylusEater_work: what error do you get? 19:29
StylusEater_work curl: (26) failed creating formpost data
TimToady
.oO(some of us are more ussy than others of us)
StylusEater_work ... ./perl6 -e "run qqx[git log -1 --pretty=format:%H].fmt(qq[curl -F architecture=i386 -F platform=linux -F revision=%s -F report_file=@rakudo_test_run.tar.gz -F username=parrot-autobot -F password=qa_rocks smolder.parrot.org/app/projects/pro...eport/5])"
flussence same here
moritz_ StylusEater_work: do you have TAP::Harness::Archive installed? (see README)
tadzik Layla_91: go on, I'm not the only one :
:) 19:30
StylusEater_work moritz_: doh!!!
flussence Oh, I was running it on my laptop, that'd explain the failure
StylusEater_work moritz_: thought I might have forgot something in the rakudo readme
moritz_ StylusEater_work: we need better diagnostics from the harness though 19:31
moritz_ has a patch, but can't test it right now 19:32
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Layla_91 What exactly does bless method does, for example in "return self.bless(*, :&callback, :@dependencies);" how could we fix the code if there was no bless ? 19:33
StylusEater_work moritz_: do we keep previous runs?
TimToady
.oO(no bless oblige...)
 19:34
StylusEater_work Layla_91: perldoc.perl.org/functions/bless.html
TimToady <moritz_> @array[^2]:delete 19:35
that does not do the same as a splice, if we follow P5 semantics on array delete
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Layla_91 oh it is in perl5 too.. I guess that is why I am the only one not understanding it :D 19:36
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lichtkind why does succ in Bool context returns true? 19:36
perlcabal.org/syn/S32/Numeric.html#Bool 19:37
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TimToady lichtkind: see S03:540 19:38
Layla_91 I keep seeing callback method in class examples.. where can I find what it does? 19:40
StylusEater_work Layla_91: I believe it returns the reference to the caller in the call graph. 19:42
flussence: is try.rakudo.org not working atm? 19:43
flussence: or maybe it's chrome on osx that's not working properly
TimToady pmurias: a litte "roast" is a "toast"
flussence working for me...
Su-Shee StylusEater_work: works for me as well. (FF, Linux) 19:44
flussence JS turned on?
Layla_91 StylusEater_work: I just understood it.. I have to say the examples are a little complex in the perl6 tutorial.. or maybe It's just me.. :S 19:45
tadzik wfm too
Su-Shee Layla_91: in which tutorial?
Layla_91 Su-Shee: Learning perl6 19:46
Su-Shee: I have no experience with perl5.. maybe that is the reason..
sorear Is there a standard Perl6 getopt_long module?
PerlJam sorear: MAIN :)
Su-Shee Layla_91: URL? 19:47
sorear MAIN is less powerful than getopt_long, and in any case needs to be built on *something*
Layla_91 Su-Shee: ops it is using perl6 not learning perl6 :D github.com/perl6/book/downloads.. 19:48
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TimToady has a profound antipathy toward any module named getopt*, having seen far too many of them in his life... 19:50
StylusEater_work flussence: all I see is the -> (white arrow) ... if I type help and press "Send" I see nothing ... maybe I'm not using it properly.. user error... :-)
Su-Shee oh my.. ;) Layla_91: Look into real code how they do it and copy it or ask about that. ;)
StylusEater_work TimToady: prefers ... getover* :-)
flussence StylusEater_work: "help" displays the message at the bottom that's already there when you load the page 19:51
PerlJam sorear: how is MAIN less powerful?
flussence try "1" or something in the command line, should echo it back
StylusEater_work print "Hello."; works... so it was user error. :-)
TimToady PerlJam: it's not as overdesigned :) 19:52
flussence I guess it should scroll on typing help or something... at least give some visible reaction
StylusEater_work flussence: it is neat btw. good work. 19:53
sorear PerlJam: no ability to say :!permute
flussence heh, most of the work wasn't me. I just got the tutorial stuff working :)
PerlJam The only thing I can think of right off is that thing where options are additive.
flussence (which needs more content...) 19:54
Layla_91 Su-Shee: mmm.. sorry my english is not too good :D you mean I should copy others code?! :S
Su-Shee Layla_91: yes, of course. that's how you learn. take a class of an existing perl 6 project and make it work for you and change stuff. 19:55
StylusEater_work Layla_91: read others code and improve upon existing code. It's open source so you're not stealing if you follow the license.
PerlJam sorear: --permute=0 doesn't work? 19:56
sorear just wants to clone GNU getopt_long; Getopt::Long and MAIN both irritate me
PerlJam okay 19:57
sorear PerlJam: No, because that's a command line argument
TimToady S06:3280 give :! syntax
sorear I want a way to control the option parser itself
diakopter heh
TimToady fine, you can always write your own module
diakopter is the option parser a Grammar? 19:58
Layla_91 Su-Shee, StylusEater_work: mmm.. I agree :) actually it is time to download some perl6 exmaples from the web.(If exists!) :D
TimToady that's why we give access to @*ARGS all the way through the mainline
MAIN is only called at the end
sorear Well I *need* to write a module because nobody has given me something reusable
diakopter there must not be a Grammar for MAIN's parsing
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TimToady I don't understand what you think is missing 19:58
eventually signatures will support parsing of lists 19:59
as in grammar based
diakopter keeps suggesting an "official" Grammar... (if there isn't one already)
flussence (if you implement NativeCall, you could just reuse the existing getopt_long... :)
sorear Rakudo's src/core/MAIN.pm has the Parrot-specific introspection and the parsing intertwined 20:00
I can't reuse it
TimToady that's a rakudo problem
not necessarily a Perl 6 problem 20:01
jnthn From a Rakudo perspective, it's probably not even really a problem. Gotta interop with the VM somewhere. :)
TimToady sorear: define "reuse"
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sorear TimToady: use it to support argument parsing in niecza 20:02
TimToady just use your own multiple dispatch implementation 20:03
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TimToady oh, you're talking about the translator 20:04
it's not clear to me why the translator would need introspection
Layla_91 I got examples from github.com/eric256/perl6-examples/ all the games not working on my laptop :( 20:05
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masak in a method, 'self' accesses the invocant. how would I access the invocant of the class my nested class is inside? 20:05
TimToady everything in the translator ought to be data driven
masak: what makes you think you have one? 20:06
it's a different class, with its own objets
TimToady typos french... 20:07
jnthn finds masak's question odd in that sense too
masak maybe it doesn't make sense, true.
tadzik Layla_91: most of the examples are not working I'm afraid
flussence tell it to pass that into the inner object?
jnthn I suspect there may be some Java-think here. I think there, a nested class does have some kinda relationship with the outer one in that way. 20:08
TimToady we all don't make sense from time to time... :)
masak flussence: that might be an option, yes.
jnthn But I mostly found it confusing. :)
Layla_91 tadzik: where else can I find working perl6 code examples?!
tadzik Layla_91: you may want to look into some of the existing modules, see modules.perl6.org
masak jnthn: in Java, the syntax would be C<Outerclass.this>
Su-Shee Layla_91: in the module's list. also, just write your own stuff and ask.
PerlJam Layla_91: perl6advent.wordpress.com
masak jnthn: and yes, that's what made me think about it.
jnthn masak: ah, OK, so I'm not crazy rusty. :)
masak: I still seem to remember if confusing me though. :)
PerlJam Layla_91: perl6.org/documentation/ has lots of links 20:09
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TimToady Layla_91: did anyone send you to rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Perl_6 ? Those are all working examples, supposedly. 20:09
and there's 254 of 'em currently
Layla_91 TimToady: awsome! ^_^ 20:10
TimToady We aim to please, when we aim at all...
moritz_ gist.github.com/773366 <-- new debugging stuff :-) I think it was tadzik++ who proposed it originally 20:11
tadzik did I?
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tadzik moritz_++ # awesome 20:11
moritz_ or was it masak?
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masak no, tadzik++ 20:11
PerlJam whoever++ that's very cool 20:12
masak moritz_: how are you planning to make that publicly usable?
TimToady is that lexically scoped?
moritz_ TimToady: it is
at least I think so
TimToady coolness
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moritz_ yes, it is 20:13
just tested it
flussence random idea: allow specifying a file descriptor other than std* for it to print to, so it can be piped into other programs
tadzik ttjjss.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/bai...comment-46 -- may I have some feedback on this one?
masak oh, now I see; it's the 'use STATEMENT_PRINT;' that does it. :)
tadzik I know how to answer that, but I don't want to do it semi-correctly :)
masak moritz_: why not 'use Statement::Print;'? 20:14
moritz_ masak: because I suck at naming :-)
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flussence tadzik: it's like xargs on a commandline, but with a pipe character, and right-to-left 20:14
masak moritz_: also, suggestion -- hide the printing of 'use STATEMENT_PRINT;' :)
tadzik flussence: that's the "my own words" version :)
masak it doesn't add anything.
moritz_ masak: it adds simplicity on the implementation side
tadzik and it may be useful if you accidentally (or not) import this twice, no? 20:15
masak moritz_: I won't press it. just felt a bit unnecessary. 20:16
TimToady 'set -x' is shorter :(
Su-Shee tadzik: well answer what the pipe does? :)
moritz_ is there a general consensus that I should push it to master? 20:17
sorear I propose Devel::Trace
moritz_ sorear: I like that
sorear moritz_: does it have any impact when disabled?
tadzik Su-Shee: I think it'd be nice in a spec-speak :)
Su-Shee in a what? :)
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moritz_ sorear: one dynamic variable per compilation unit, one executed 'if' per statement at compile time 20:18
rindolf Hi all.
moritz_ both at compile time, that is
sorear hello rindolf
tadzik rindolf: o/
moritz_ ie not much
rindolf sorear, tadzik : what's up?
tadzik rindolf: seen my blag toast? :) 20:19
rindolf tadzik: no.
not yet
What is a "blag'?
tadzik ttjjss.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/bailamos/
it's a funny blog
rindolf Ah.
tadzik ;)
lichtkind TimToady: thank you
masak I think my blog is too serious to be a blag.
rindolf tadzik: ah. 20:20
tadzik: interesting.
tadzik: it would be neater if rakudo had macros.
I mean the syntax would be. 20:21
tadzik rindolf: what would you change?
rindolf tadzik: well, I would do something like get /foo(.+)/ { }
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rindolf Without the => and the sub. 20:22
Can't the "sub" keyword be omitted already? 20:23
You can also use named captures.
tadzik rindolf: interesting question
yeah, I know about those
masak in 'get /foo(.+)/ { }', you definitely run into TTIAR.
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masak which is why macros would be needed, I guess. 20:24
TimToady but not if you parse it as a statement control
masak right.
s/get/if/ and it would be legal.
tadzik :)
masak so either macros or sufficient control over the active parser rules :)
tadzik that's closer and closer to when
TimToady or s/get/when/ and it's even a smartmatch 20:25
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masak one could probably do a few nice tricks already today, passing in a block of when clauses to a function. 20:25
TimToady but yeah, eventually we'll have real macros that can emulate any builtin syntactic category 20:26
s/emulate/add to/
currently niecza is closest to having real macros, since transitive LTM is a requirement 20:27
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sorear I thought pugs already had them 20:28
moritz_ notreally 20:29
you could write 'macro foo($x) { $x * 2 }', but to the best of my knowledge it was faked at run time
at least nobody ever showed some awesome macro magic with it :-)
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TimToady macros were the *last* think on the pugs roadmap 20:30
moritz_ -> early sleep
TimToady *ng
enjoy it while you can :)
dalek kudo: 33788e8 | moritz++ | t/harness:
die on spectest_smolder if TAP::Harness::Archive cannot be loaded
kudo: ca62f23 | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
non-spec Devel::Trace pragma that prints statements before executing them
moritz_ :-) 20:31
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sorear TimToady: Does that mean pugs is complete? 20:34
:)
sorear wants something like if EXPR -> $v { ... }, but checking defined() instead of so() 20:35
tadzik no, but yapsi is :)
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TimToady sorear: andthen is something like that 20:36
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TimToady see S03:2464 20:37
in fact, it was original postulated as a way to write the STD engine more hapily 20:38
*pp
sorear The most irritatingly subtle incompatibility between Perl 6 and Perl 5 for what I've done so far is the truth value of [] 20:39
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TimToady well, all references are true in P5, which was a mistake 20:41
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masak sorear: au/Pugs never got to macros :/ 20:52
kinda stalled on the OO step.
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tadzik Devel::Trace! \o/ 21:03
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sorear masak: I thought I saw someone demo a pugs macro once 21:08
nevermind
the other interesting question is
"Does the existance of macros require all Perl 6 implementations to use an object oriented PEG/LTM engine for parsing input?" 21:09
is it possible to construct, say, a C Perl6 which uses yacc?
TimToady PEG/LTM is a requirement for Perl 6 21:10
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masak the common API that macros would run on top of is underspec'd, but that's more or less to be expected at this point, with no implementations having macros... 21:12
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masak is the NEXT phaser executed the last iteration through a loop? 21:16
assuming that iteration exits normally.
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pmurias sorear: how are classes represented in NAM? 21:17
TimToady masak: see S04:1420 21:18
so the answer is "yes"
masak ok. 21:19
TimToady and "last" is considered abnormal
NEXT is basically the same as P5's continue {}
so it can do the "increment" before the loop's "while" test
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sorear pmurias: the xref pool contains an object of the form ["class",name,package_install_slots,attributes,methods,superclasses,mro] 21:25
pmurias thanks, i was viewing a mangled form of the xref pool so i didn't notice that 21:27
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Tene I did have macros working on an nqp-rx language before, as a prototype. It wouldn't have been too much more to make them lexically-scoped, etc. 21:40
masak what's the simplest way to use phasers (or something else) to execute something between iterations of a loop, such as adding a separator between list items?
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Tene It's definitely doable on rakudo, just a SMOP 21:40
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masak Tene: what can the rest of us do to help you in this endeavour? 21:41
(aka "want. macros. now.")
Tene masak: seeing as I haven't actually worked on it in about a year... any "help" would be "do all of it" 21:42
masak noted.
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masak seen this? everythingsysadmin.com/2011/01/pyth...perl6.html 21:51
aloha Sorry, I haven't seen this? everythingsysadmin.com/2011/01/pyth...erl6.html.
masak aloha: ssh!
perlbuzz tweeted it a few hours back. 21:52
Tene masak: fwiw, I rather miss working on that sort of project, so if you have any ideas about motivating me, please feel free to try whatever you like.
alester I think Tom makes some swell points.
esp. from the POV of someone who's forced to use the snake.
mkramer1 despite the title, he hasn't mentioned he likes about python that perl6 doesn't have (specced) 21:53
*what he
alester I think the biggie is "it exists."
(For his value of "exists")
masak right. probably not productive to tell this kind of blogger that Perl 6 does "ship". 21:54
mkramer1 Then he should have said that, it's misleading to title your post that way and then spend the rest of the article writing about why python is better than perl 5
alester Don't discount Tom Limoncelli as "this kind of blogger".
He's no dummy, and he's highly respected.
masak I didn't mean it derogatorily. 21:55
alester For his purposes, Perl 6 doesn't ship.
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masak I meant that he actually has a criterion, and is not just bashing Perl 6. 21:55
he has a slightly clumsy way of saying it, but then again, which outsider doesn't?
sorear alester: do you know anything about the rakudo.org banning epidemic? 21:56
masak I'd consider such a blog post to be bad PR for Perl 6 (in the drops-on-stone sense), and there's no easy way to counteract it, besides working on Perl 6.
Tene I understood "this kind of blogger" in that context to mean "a well-informed blogger who knows what he's talking about" 21:57
masak something like that. better informed than just cargo-culting twitter or reddit people, at least. 21:58
Tene Seems like most of the post is talking about Perl 5, though.
Which is valid, just makes the title a bit odd. 21:59
masak someone saying "Perl 6 doesn't ship" is liable to trigger an automatic reaction in me no matter what.
cognominal *welcome
masak cognominal: sorry, what? 22:00
jnthn cognominal: wrong window
:)
alester sorear: Yes.
masak welcome, cognominal, to the Wrong Window :) 22:01
mkramer1 Tene: that's what I thought when I read it. He ennumerates ten features that he likes about Python, nine of which Perl6 also has, the one exception being 7, "no interpolation of strings"
also, I didn't see clear criteria for "shipping" anywhere
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gfldex he tries to justify to himself why he is using python in a public place 22:01
cognominal wrong window indeed. 22:02
gfldex most blogs are used in that way tho :->
masak there can't be clear criteria, since Perl 6 is shipping, and has been for years.
cognominal but you are welcome anyway
masak cognominal: thanks -- you too :)
sorear alester: Out of curiousity, what's causing it?
alester I banned about 20 Class A's a week ago. 22:03
And have since removed them.
masak: "Shipping" according to you.
sorear alester: Several people have reported getting a "banned" error page from their normal computer, but being able to access from others in the same class C
alester: among them: lopaway, coldhead
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Tene Personally, this is the definition of "shipping" that I'd like to see used in these discussions: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipping_%28fandom%29 22:04
masak Tene++ :P
alester: now, "shipping" is an objective thing. it's whether we share what we have with others. 22:05
alester: Rakudo has an open github repository, it has monthly releases, it has release announcements.
alester: saying that it *isn't* shipping after that is... not a matter of subjective opinion. 22:06
in my opinion :)
Tene If the actual product being shipped doesn't meet your needs, that's a completely valid and accurate complaint, but there's a different word for that.
masak yes.
"inadequate".
Tene When rakudo star is distributed by my linux distro, it's pretty hard to argue that it hasn't "shipped". 22:07
masak but note the *huge* difference between "Perl 6 doesn't exist/ship" and "Perl 6 is inadequate for my needs"
alester sorear: Yes, and I said I have since removed them. 22:08
masak: I think that defending Perl 6 by saying "Look, it's shipping, for some value of shipping that happens to not be yours" is a waste of time.
masak alester: I generally manage to convince people that Perl 6 is shipping, though. 22:09
alester Arguing over word choice is masturbatory. The key is, to many people, Perl 6 is not "done" enough. That's why I put the post out there.
masak I'm not really arguing over word choice. 22:10
but I agree with your general feeling about the post.
I like that you posted it.
alester sorear: Are your questions adequately answered?
masak s/posted/tweeted/
Tene alester: I think that an important part of any improvement process is making sure we have an *accurate* view of our deficiencies. I don't know that I've ever seen anyone here assert that there are no problems at all with Rakudo, or assert that because we've published a release, no other problems matter. 22:11
If someone accuses me of being a slacker at work and of kicking puppies, I'm going to acknowledge the correct accusation and refute the inaccurate claim. 22:12
masak I haven't found telling people that Rakudo has releases to be masturbatory. about a third of those people have genuinely grateful/interested reactions. 22:13
sorear alester: yes
Tene Hmm.
alester Tene: I think that we pretend that we know our deficiencies. 22:14
diakopter those poor puppies
alester When people say "Perl 6 doesn't exist" we get all frothy and say "Yes it does! Yes it does!"
instead of acknowledging that to THAT PERSON and, indeed, the vast majority of the computing world, it does NOT.
diakopter (as they define "exist") 22:15
alester Right.
TimToady what does acknowledging that gain us?
Tene erlang isn't currently useful to me; in what meaningful sense could I then claim that erlang doesn't exist?
alester which is what matters.
Customer walks into Blockbuster (clearly this is years ago) 22:16
Customer doesn't find movie customer wants
TimToady our intent is to educate them, not coddle them
alester Customer says "This store doesn't have anything!"
Clerk can say "Yes we do! Yes we do!"
diakopter !addquote < masak> I haven't found telling people that Rakudo has releases to be masturbatory.
alester but why?
masak diakopter: :P
TimToady I fail to see how your analogy helps us. 22:17
alester I feel like we are in the position of the clerk.
TimToady I fail to see how your analogy helps us.
alester Telling the customer "We have stuff!" It's just not what they want. 22:18
TimToady I fail to see how your analogy helps us.
alester Telling the customer "Your defintino sucks" doesn't help.
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TimToady I fail to see how your analogy helps us. 22:18
masak under the clerk analogy, I like to show the customer our selection of films.
alester OK, Larry, I'll shut up.
masak that's what I usually tend to work towards. showing stuff.
it's extremely difficult for someone to claim that a thing that just produced a cool thing doesn't exist. 22:19
Tene alester: What would you like us to say? 22:20
alester "I know we don't have everything you want, and I'm sorry we're not there yet. Let us show what we do have."
But we're so focused on "You're wrong!" to the accusations.
I know it's furstrating.
It's frustrating when people tell me ack is broken because it doesn't do what they expected. 22:21
(for example)
mkramer1 Well, they're wrong accusations. If we don't refute them, then we've implicitly confirmed them
alester mkramer1: So what?
Let THEM decide.
Otherwise it's a fight.
And fighting helps no one.
TimToady the right people will decide when the time is right
alester Exactly.
masak alester: I don't usually get depressed responding to people's mistaken claims about Perl 6. I get depressed trying to align to what you're saying now. 22:22
alester why?
masak let me try to analyze it for a minute or so.
TimToady we all know the wave is building, the only question is when we want people to notice; I am personally in favor of a slow build over a fast splash 22:23
alester TimToady: I can agree with that.
s/can/do/
masak alester: hm. because I think many people are blocking themselves from even *seeing* Perl 6 by cargo-culting the meme that it doesn't exist, or hasn't arrived yet.
alester masak: OK, but that's not a you problem. 22:24
masak not sure I know what that means.
alester You don't have to own that problem.
masak of couse not.
Twitter is all about exchanging views with people.
so is Reddit. so is HN.
TimToady when people see continuums as either-or, that's a problem that prevents communication 22:25
alester And, in general, I think that our time is better spent writing code/toolchain/modules/whatever that serves the whole, rather than convincing a single person.
TimToady we're all very much trying to argue that there's a continuum, so naturally react against black/white arguments
alester TimToady: Yes, black/white thinking can be a problem. And it's not a problem we are going to solve.
Tene I don't think those are exclusive tasks.
masak alester: I think I would be depressed if my *main* occupation was to try to convince people like that.
alester Tene: Can you write code at the same time you're arguing on reddit?
TimToady the only way to solve black/white problems is to let people continue to be ignorant, eh? 22:26
sbp you could write code to argue for you on reddit
alester Do you have a way to stop them from being so?
dalek ecza: dff8b2f | sorear++ | v6/ (2 files):
[v6] Add an option parser, command-line interface
sbp some kind of markov chain...
Tene alester: No, but there *are* times that I can argue on reddit when I can't or am otherwise disinclined to write code.
TimToady alester: several ways
masak alester: I feel I have helped people see the light. are you saying that was a mistaken feeling?
Tene alester: Similarly, there are plenty of times when I'm inclined to write code and disinclined to argue on reddit.
alester masak: No
TimToady some of them respond to talking, and others only respons to "show me the code"
some of them will never respond
people have different learning styles, and you can't assume only one way is the right way to teach 'em 22:27
alester I just think there's more bang/buck in code/blogging/creation-of-something than there is in arguing the wrong.
That's all.
masak some of them are in it for the trolling. but those are few and far between.
TimToady we can't know which they are unless we push back a bit
masak most are genuinely misinformed.
sbp I was thinking that as long as perl6 is a bunch of useful things for making other useful things, the education side won't matter (roughly, build and they will come). but then I thought about how Javascript coding practices have changed over the past ten years, not due to the language changing but due to education and slow evolution and creativity in usage patterns 22:28
alester my $troll =~ ($comment =~ m/Duke Nuk/);
One other suggestion:
That I am trying to do
when I see people say something wrong
think something incorrect
sbp so I wonder: how many of the people who are "yet to be convinced" about perl6 are going to also be those who help with the education and slow evolution / creativity in usage patterns?
masak most Duke Nukem people are of the misinformed kind, not of the real-troll kind.
alester I'm trying to blog about it, BEFORE replying in the thread,
and THEN point the person to it.
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alester So that the energy I place into replying to a single person, or single thread on a board, is directed for the world to see. 22:29
sbp because the underlying constructive element, the language, the implementations, and the libraries are being built. so how many of those people who, apparently though I don't entirely follow the conversation, sorely need to be convinced or undeluded will contribute to those extra factors?
mkramer1 Hey, speaking of Duke Nukem, didja hear that the project has got more funding recently? :D
TimToady alester: I think that scales well for some forums, but irc is more immediate, and they'll wander off before you get anything written here
but I admire the attempt at knowledge capture 22:30
alester True.
masak me too. alester++
alester In a larger scale, I think that message boards fall into False Importance.
diakopter bugs eyes at TimToady corpspeak 22:31
alester Just because it's said in business doesn't make it invalid.
diakopter I don't think all (any?) corpspeak is invalid :P
TimToady well, we need leverage on all different scales :)
sbp anyone? outstanding question in the wash above 22:32
diakopter mkramer1's? ;)
masak sbp: tl;dr :)
sbp verbosity doesn't translate to buoyancy? :-) 22:33
TimToady sbp: some not insignificant %
alester My own Sisyphusian task is getting people to create sensible resumes. :-)
(and buy my book)
sbp not insignificant: in the way that every individual is not insignificant in the grand scheme, or...? :-)
TimToady I mean that some portion of the new talent we will recruit over the next year will be "converts" from oversimpified views of reality 22:34
masak fwiw, I agree with alester that most of those converts will be through cool code, not through active refutation of their views. 22:35
TimToady there are a lot of people who think of Perl 6 as a "yes/no" question who will see what we've been doing and realize they can be a part of the transition from "no" to "yes".
this will get more true as we put more real stuff out there
alester Pretty much everyone in the "Perl 6 doesn't exist yet" camp are from Missouri.
TimToady this is why I've been hacking so hard on rosettacode, for instance 22:36
Tene alester: Missouri?
alester "Show me"
Tene ><
sbp some. well I imagine that if those some are 10%, that's a very different case to 90%. the flexibility of perl6, the utter metameta of it, should mean that there will be more of a slide over time as new things are bootstrapped on top of the language than in most other languages
alester sorry, for the non-US folks.
masak I got it once you explained it.
alester www.sos.mo.gov/archives/history/slogan.asp
sbp one of the things that I really like about (especially) #perl6, but perl6 development in general, is that people get their heads down and just work on things, so the recent spate of concern over PR is interesting to me. I still don't really feel as though I should care
alester I spent some childhood years in Nebraska, so it's 2nd nautre. :-) 22:37
sbp which is why I'm so curious about the numbers
masak alester: I disagree; pretty much everyone in the "Perl 6 doesn't exist yet" camp have peers who probably would think it was a nice punchline.
alester example of what I've been trying to do on reddit www.reddit.com/r/resumes/comments/e...ot/c1c4kb0
re: resumes
Answering the question, while linking to existing message.
Do we even have a page/blog post somewhere that canonically addresses "Perl 6 isn't out yet"? 22:38
edenc alester: while I agree with you about blogging/coding/getting-things-done instead of arguing, if my late, humble opinion counts, there's a human factor to account for, when you've done a lot of work on something and people still bash it cluelesly, it's natural to stop rationalizing about what's the best thing to do, and there's when you can start making mistakes in how you react to things 22:39
alester Because I suspect there's a lot of rework.
Tene Oh man, resumes. A friend of mine has been having a lot of trouble findign work lately, and the resume she's using is *exclusively* a list of previous employers and titles.
alester "when you've done a lot of work on something and people still bash it cluelesly": Yes, I agree, we're all human and it hurts to hear people say our work sucks or is inadequate.
sbp I'd use github.com/rakudo/star/downloads
alester Tene: Point her to my book and blog techworklove.com/
The big thing I'm seeing so much on reddit/resumes is lack of detail. 22:40
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edenc I'm working on a perl6 grammar-based dispatch and someone managed to get my ramblings onto hackernews where some clueless person said "congratulations, perl6 is almost like python" and pasted a link to the django regular expression dispatcher 22:41
there's a big conflict, it's hard to decide whether to educate the guy and explain the *big* difference between regexes and grammars or just shut up and go back to work
alester edenc: I think we put too much stock into re-education of people. 22:42
edenc so I'm always of the opinion of letting whoever's getting something done alone
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edenc whether he argues a lot like mst or a more reserved guy like larry, leave'em alone :) 22:43
if arguing is pointless, arguing about arguing is less even 22:44
sorear 1. he's right 2. code is good 22:45
Perl 5 has been at the Python level for quite some time - Perl 6 is catching up
sbp "at the Python level"?
alester edenc++ 22:46
masak 'night, #perl6. 22:48
colomon \o
22:48 masak left
gfldex if they defend their language that hard it can only mean that they have to defend their language. i like that. :) 22:48
alester OK, off to be Dad. 22:49
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tadzik edenc: erm, that was me working on grammar based dispatching 22:53
edenc tadzik: yeah I now 22:54
*know
tadzik edenc: you were the HN submitter?
TimToady
.oO(so we're supposed to create buzz without re-educating people, eh?)
 22:55
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edenc tadzik: no, you posted the blog entry after we discussed in here, along with ruoso 22:55
tadzik ah, that was you! I remember know
sorear TimToady: you can't re-educate people, you can only corrupt the youth. It it no coincidence that PaFo ranks far higher in GCI than GSoC 22:56
tadzik I even mentioned you in the blog post
edenc tadzik: yeah
tadzik: I'm silently and slowly learning the inner workings of perl 6 grammars in order to make up my mind about whether to copy some of the things into perl 5 or just plain use perl6 for the whole thing 22:57
tadzik I see 22:58
edenc and trying to pay the bills at the same time :) 22:59
I was part of a framework project that suffered a slow and horrible death 23:00
it really sucks to be bashed on a daily basis
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edenc and I really admire the perl 6 folks for the persistence, even with all the bashing coming from the perl community itself 23:03
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pmurias sorear: is there a GSoC ranking? 23:13
diakopter ranking of what 23:14
pmurias "PaFo ranks far higher in GCI than GSoc" 23:16
sorear pmurias: not an official one, but just look at the 5 PaFo tasks and the 20+ ffmpeg tasks
pmurias people likely want to do something easy
sorear pafo gets very little love from gsoc students, relative to most open source projects 23:17
pmurias sorear: btw are you a student?
sorear yes
pmurias why didn't you take part in GSoC?
sorear I don't have a good reason 23:18
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pmurias you can take part this year 23:19
;)
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tadzik 'night 23:27
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