»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
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lue what the heck is @@w supposed to mean? I remember reading not too long ago something about @@ and slices, but I don't know anything beyond that. 02:13
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dalek : 1df6eb2 | lue++ | examples/functional/ (7 files):
[examples] fixed most of examples/functional to work with rakudo/nom

The entirety of the fixes include making sure functions returned Bool values when they said they would, flattening where it would otherwise cause infinite recursion, and avoiding redeclaration of variables (how that managed to happen is beyond me). Only monads.pl was untouched, due to an NYI error about typed arrays.
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natureboy hi swarles :] 03:44
swarles hey =] 03:48
sorear hello and welcome, natureboy and swarles. 03:57
natureboy hello, thanks 03:58
mberends \o 03:59
TimToady »ö« 04:01
sorear lue: @@x sounds like something from the Dark Age of Pugs, perhaps 2003 04:02
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TimToady was a little later than that 04:03
swarles hello o/
TimToady perl6: say "Howdy doody!" 04:04
p6eval pugs, rakudo 2bac6a, niecza v9-7-g252c6a5: OUTPUT«Howdy doody!␤»
mberends ▷☋◁ 04:05
TimToady a frog with fins?
mberends Iron Butterfly 04:06
TimToady looks kinda like a bat
sorear .u ☋ 04:07
phenny U+260B DESCENDING NODE (☋)
sorear bleh 04:09
.net's async IO model is very un-POSIX-like
they have Select but it's sockets only
other kinds of file descriptors use a stateful request/callback system 04:10
natureboy: swarles: anything we can help you with? 04:11
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swarles Nope I'm just here to watch/listern :) 04:11
TimToady ⊱ö⊰
⊱⍥⊰ 04:12
sorear has little idea what kind of interface to present to Perl 6
natureboy not really, but thanks sorear 04:13
TimToady ⊱⚉⊰ 04:15
decomputing &
natureboy is that supposed to look like "Camelia" ?
TimToady vaguely 04:16
mberends Campelia
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mberends sorear: structuring async I/O around callbacks would be useful, to unify with other NCI events (eg GUI input) 04:18
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lue severely detests Google's refusal to search symbols essential to any programmer's diet. 04:29
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sorear mberends: I think I'm going to shift my month focus to general CLR integration and let someone else worry about API design. 04:32
I don't like API design.
mberends lue: you should look beyond Google, even if only to resist the creation of another kind of monopoly
sorear you should detest Google for other reasons.
mberends sorear: I'll gladly participate in API bikeshedding, but would like to work mainly with example use cases. 04:33
lue I got NoScript to stop Google from the stupid "guess what you want as you're typing" when they brought it to the SSL version. [It severely slows down my connection and makes Google think I'm using a bot to do mass searches!] 04:34
lue investigates other search engines
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mberends sorear: I'm very happy that you'll work on CLR integration instead. If you you devise something that goes beyond Zavolaj's NativeCall, it will create many application opportunities for Niecza and throw out a challenge for Rakudo to catch up. Therefore I hope you can make it as VM agnostic as possible. 04:43
lue: I'm not sure 'wormhole' is the best choice of word, could you help me with some possible improvements? github.com/sorear/niecza/blob/mast...mpiler.pod 04:47
lue looks 04:50
mberends that sentence reads better with "Perl 6 virtual world" and "executable real world" as well 04:54
lue instead of wormhole, maybe passageway? [also, I noticed this: "How is the Niecza compiler babby formed?" Are you sure it's babby? ] 04:55
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mberends lue: yes, I'm sure. I was hoping for something more cosmic, to spice up the text. 'bridge' is too mundane, 'stargate' too exotic. 04:57
.oO(gateway perhaps?)
mberends yes, better. how about portal? 04:59
sorear rabbit-hole.
mberends yes, quite nice 05:00
lue I like rabbit-hole, reminds me of Alice in Wonderland (where CLR is real life, and P6 is Wonderland, according to your analogy) 05:01
mberends no, implies similar worlds too much, like wormhole
oh, the looking-glass!
sorear it's not really like a boundary between P6 and real life
and as I said yesterday, rawscall has nothing to do with system calls 05:02
the "s" stands for "static"
"rawcall" calls instance methods, "rawscall" calls class methods
mberends oh, I missed that totally 05:03
sorear CLR makes the distinction
mberends I'd kinda mapped VM to system
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mberends ok, that will get a rewrite. I'm really attracted to 'looking-glass', I think it triggers appropriate thoughts. 05:05
sorear DownCall/UpCall is kind of like a wormhole, it's a portal through time 05:06
it allows code compiled using last month's Niecza to call code compiled using the current Niecza, and vice versa (for eval)
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mberends I assumed that was only during the bootstrap compile, and that in the next iteration of recompile the versions of caller and callee would be in sync. 05:08
sorear mberends: it would be possible to do it that way, and the release binaries are set up that way 05:09
mberends I like the time travel viewpoint of the bootstrap, that might be worth mentioning more explicitly.
sorear mberends: but for development I only want to build niecza once, which means that "self-compiled" is a bad idea
in ghc/gcc parlance builds from source are always stage1s 05:10
mberends aye, I hacked on Small-C many years ago and had the same self-hosting stability risks
sorear ... "Small-C"? haven't heard of that in ages. 05:11
mberends by James Hendrix, an excellent learning tool 05:12
sorear most of the "stability" problems went away when niecza started running roast
I don't fear that I'm rebooting with a broken niecza
mberends yes, testing++ 05:13
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sorear mberends: hrm, I wonder then if CLR interop should be more like Zavolaj or Blizkost 05:20
mberends sorear: so far I've preferred Zavolaj because it's more explicitly declarative 05:21
TimToady literal but non-portable interfaces are okay for building portability layers on top of
mberends sorear: Zavolaj is independent on what lies beyond, for example hooking up PostgreSQL was a breeeze. 05:23
*of, *breeze even 05:26
sorear mberends: preferred Zavolaj over...?
mberends sorear: Blizkost, the other option you mentioned for 'interop like' 05:27
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sorear mberends: yeah just wondering where you would have the option to use both 05:29
and goodnight.
mberends 'night
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mberends phenny, tell sorear we have the option to use Zavolaj or Blizkost generally when a Perl 5 module abstracts a native library, for example a PostgreSQL or MySQL client. I preferred independence from the effect a Perl 5 layer might have on what is available to the Perl 6 code. In short, call direct. The question for the Niecza interop design is whether you can _always_ interrogate native code to tell you its methods and parameters, or not. I don't think 05:51
you can.
phenny mberends: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
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mberends phenny, tell sorear otoh, CLR is easier to deal with than native code because CLR has Reflection. Calling from Niecza to native code involves jumping through two hoops, CLR and FFI. We don't want the solution to look like Perl 5 XS. 06:03
phenny mberends: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
lue oh! I was reading up more on the capture sigil (¢) ooc, and found an irc log discussion mentioning ¢'s supposed alternative (@%) used to be @@. So, does that mean @@ is just ¢ ? 06:06
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perlhack 用中文 像大家问好 06:08
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tadzik good mornings 06:28
man, HPatMoR chapters are coming out at insane pace 06:30
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tadzik rakudo: class A { has $!b; submethod BUILD { say $!b } }; A.new(b => 5) # correct? istr it worked 07:15
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
pmichaud I think the new standard is that private attributes aren't automatically initialized that way. 07:23
(nom implements the new version, ng had the old one) 07:24
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pmichaud S12:882 07:25
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tadzik rakudo: class A { has $.b; submethod BUILD { say $.b } }; A.new(b => 5) # correct? istr it worked 07:28
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
tadzik doesn't seem so, unless I miss something
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pmichaud I think "rakudo: 07:28
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pmichaud I think "rakudo:" now refers to nom. 07:29
tadzik yes, that's what I'm hoping for
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pmichaud ng: class A { has $.b; submethod BUILD { say $.b } }; A.new(b => 5) # correct? istr it worked 07:29
b: class A { has $.b; submethod BUILD { say $.b } }; A.new(b => 5) # correct? istr it worked
p6eval b a55346: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
tadzik b needs callsame for that, I believe
b: class A { has $.b; submethod BUILD { callsame; say $.b } }; A.new(b => 5) # correct? istr it worked
p6eval b a55346: OUTPUT«5␤» 07:30
pmichaud b: class A { has $!b; submethod BUILD { say $!b } }; A.new(b => 5) # correct? istr it worked
p6eval b a55346: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
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tadzik that doesn't help nom though 07:30
pmichaud well, in nom's case you're overriding BUILD, so you don't get the default BUILD
tadzik rakudo: class A { has $.b; submethod BUILD { callsame; say $.b } }; A.new(b => 5) 07:31
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
tadzik no, something else's broken
pmichaud rakudo: class A { has $.b; submethod BUILD($!b) { say $.b } }; A.new(b => 5) 07:33
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 2␤ in submethod BUILD at /tmp/WM9GqkKeFO:1␤ in method BUILDALL at src/gen/CORE.setting:483␤ in method bless at src/gen/CORE.setting:473␤ in method new at src/gen/CORE.setting:458␤ in <anon> at /tmp/WM…
pmichaud rakudo: class A { has $.b; submethod BUILD(:$!b) { say $.b } }; A.new(b => 5) 07:34
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«5␤»
pmichaud hmmmmmmmmmm
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tadzik I don't like it, again :) 07:41
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tadzik I believe BUILD { say $!b } used to Just Work in nom some time ago 07:42
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moritz \o 07:56
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tadzik o\ 07:56
moritz doesn't that need to be BUILD(:$!b) { say $!b } ?
tadzik I hope not. I don't like easy things hard to do 07:57
I think I'm missing a being
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perlhack hi 07:57
tadzik hi perlhack
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perlhack hello tadzik,i am ready to get off duty.i wish you have fun. 08:02
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woosley what is BUILD used for? just like BUILD in Moose? 08:05
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tadzik woosley: I hope it to be, but it seems that it's a different magic 08:06
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woosley tadzik: so what is the magic here? 08:09
tadzik woosley: it doesn't work as expected :) The attributes aren't neceserilly set in your BUILD, you may have to do that yourself. I mean, those passed to the .new 08:10
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mberends phenny, tell pmichaud the next timing accuracy improvement in Test.pm will be to move $time_before and $time_after assignments out from proclaim() to ok(), is*(), diag() etc, because some of those do lots of work before calling proclaim(). There should be negligible performance impact, but I'd like your opinion before proceeding. Also, there will probably be a few sub-microsecond times soon. We could record nanoseconds instead of microseconds (I pref 08:33
phenny mberends: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
mberends er integers), even though clocks do not have nanosecond resolution (yet).
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eiro hello all 08:41
tadzik hello eiro 08:42
eiro i'm trying to use the comments of arguments for doc (pastebin.com/cYwvCGxj)
it sends me the message: ===SORRY!=== 08:43
Whitespace character is not allowed as a delimiter at line 4, near " one of CR"
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eiro hello tadzik. i was trying to write my first IA for the farm game. 08:43
AI 08:44
actually it's more like IS (artificial stupidity) 08:45
moritz well, natural stupidity we have more than enough :-) 08:47
tadzik eiro: docs for signatures are NYI 08:49
I may poke that soon, since someone actually needs this :)
lue docs for signatures? What's that? [Or rather, which spec would tell me about it, if it's too long to explain here] 08:51
eiro moritz, i can't just plug my brain to parrot :) 08:54
tadzik, NYI ?
moritz NYI = Not Yet Implemented 08:55
eiro arg :)
ok thanks
moritz lue: S26 allows attaching doc strings to just about anything
lue ohh, now that I know we're talking about doc strings, I can figure out exactly what docs for signatures are. 08:57
.oO(could you attach doc strings to doc strings?)
mberends lue: :) don't go there... 09:01
tadzik why, yes you can :) 09:02
.oO(#=this is a doc string explaining method foo of class xyzzy. Its purpose is to tell you the purpose of foo)
tadzik rakudo: gist.github.com/1185757 09:03
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«Array.new("doc #= double doc")␤»
tadzik documented documentation :)
lue oooh, I didn't know p6eval took files 09:05
tadzik lives 09:06
lue I won't for much longer if I don't go to bed. Good night everyone o/ 09:08
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im2ee Could I find somewhere modules which are build in Perl6? 09:33
Like IO::Socket ? :)
mberends im2ee: IO::Socket in built in to Rakudo itself. Modules are here: modules.perl6.org/ 09:34
im2ee I know modules.perl6.org. So, there is no site about modules which are build in to Rakudo? :) 09:35
mberends im2ee: avoid confusion, what is built into Rakudo is not *modules*. The complete set of Synopses describes what *should* be built in perlcabal.org/syn/ and this is the progress so far: perl6.org/compilers/features 09:38
im2ee mberends, ok. Thank You! :) 09:39
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mberends im2ee: IO::Socket is specified in perlcabal.org/syn/S32/IO.html 09:40
im2ee Great. :)
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mberends im2ee: examples of IO:Socket are github.com/cosimo/perl6-lwp-simple and github.com/mberends/http-server-simple 09:42
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im2ee mberends, thanks again. :) 09:43
mberends have lots of fun! :)
finally, a 6model/c raw list implementation is free of memory leaks according to valgrind. Next up, a bigger test suite :) 09:48
im2ee Hmm, some more questions. :) 09:50
What about threading in Perl6? :)
Using fork, or some modules?
And... does exist something like DO (from p5)? 09:51
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mberends im2ee: not much implemented yet, your can use run('command') or qx(command). I think Niecza has some threading support but not Rakudo. I did create this example using Zavolaj: github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/blob/mast...ix-fork.p6 09:54
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mberends im2ee: oops, qx/command/ 09:57
im2ee hmmm.. No problem in total. :)
I'll be glad to help You with Perl6. :)
mberends great! when can you start?
im2ee But ... now I must get to know perl6 better. :) 09:58
I use Perl5 for 1 y (maybe 2), now I'll learn P6. :)
Hmm, I know C too. 09:59
mberends oh good, then you may be able to get involved with Parrot as well.
im2ee Hm, don't now exactly when - but I would as soon as possible :) 10:00
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im2ee Where I can find informations about what is to do? :) 10:00
mberends, You wrote Zavolaj? 10:01
mberends im2ee: I am contributor. jnthn++ is the author. 10:02
im2ee Ok. :) 10:03
mberends, Where I can find informations about what is to do? :) 10:04
mberends im2ee: first make sure that you can use Perl 6, (Rakudo, Niecza or both). The try to create your own module to share with the community. Then try to add a Perl 6 language test to github.com/perl6/roast. 10:05
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im2ee Hmm, is there maybe a site where I can find information abouts who is working on what? 10:06
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im2ee I won't to work on something over which one is working now :) 10:07
mberends im2ee: not really. I recommend searching the logs of this channel at irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/ 10:08
what would you *like* to work on? maybe I can remember who is interested in similar things. 10:09
moritz im2ee: people generally publish their work early and often 10:12
im2ee: so if something isn't on modules.perl6.org, you can be confident nobody has invested too much time in it
im2ee Hm, maybe for start on something like IRC bot module, etc. 10:15
You know - Im now professional, I hope You it'll be changed ! :) 10:16
And I hope You understand, that I'm not professional. :)
Right? :)
Hi moritz :)
moritz is not professional either :-)
im2ee :)
mberends there are already several people playing with IRC clients, I cannot remember names but that irc log search will find them.
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im2ee Hmm, but there is IRC Bot framework, right ? :) 10:17
moritz right, by TiMBuS++
im2ee Net::IRC::Bot
Ok. So .. hm, something else :)
mberends other people often ask for modules to build web applications. There are some incomplete frameworks, they need more love. 10:18
TiMBuS yay im getting attention
mberends :)
moritz TiMBuS: not you, just your module :-)
mberends lol
TiMBuS im2ee, feel free to contribute to make my module suck less
i never added module unloading support! the whole reason i made it modular 10:19
thats a good palce to start
moritz for example you could write a simple bot, and see if you miss any functionality from the framework
or find unintuitive, or so
mberends but please don't point a buggy bot at this lovely channel ;) 10:20
TiMBuS i miss the part where, the bot disconnects if it times out. because i have no async IO or threads >:[
mberends, the last bot someone sent here was a barrel of laughs
mberends oh yeah 10:21
im2ee TiMBuS, I don't thing that Your module sucks. :)
TiMBuS joke please
im2ee think*
TiMBuS thanks im2ee! but you can still probably make it better
im2ee TiMBuS, makeing irc module will be good lesson for me. :) 10:23
Hmm, does my English suck?
mberends nope 10:24
TiMBuS mines worse
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im2ee mberends, thanks. :) 10:25
TiMBuS, where are You from? :)
mberends im2ee: :) 10:26
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TiMBuS australia. 10:26
im2ee I must say something. This is the most friendly community that I have ever known. :) 10:27
mberends im2ee: thank you 10:28
im2ee No, I thank You. :)
So. :)
I'll learning P6 today. :) 10:29
mberends im2ee: one small thing, English people write 'you' with a small 'y'
im2ee Ok. :)
mberends im2ee: have you installed Rakudo or Niecza yet? It seems a logical first step. 10:30
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im2ee I have Rakudo 07.2011 10:30
mberends good. Then also install Panda, as described on the Modules page. 10:31
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im2ee i have Panda too. :) 10:31
and i installed some modules :)
mberends impressive :)
im2ee :) 10:32
So. I'm on the good way. :)
a instead of the :)
or? :)
nevermind :)
mberends I guess a, but nevermind 10:33
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im2ee Now, I'll write some code which will help me learn the language. 10:35
daxim im2e++ for practicality 10:49
mberends im2ee++ even
im2ee :) 10:50
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im2ee $sock.say("JOIN $chan\r") for @channels -> $chan; 11:06
what is wrong? :)
Trashlord uh 11:12
for my $chan @channels;
or 11:13
for my $chan (@channels);
flussence maybe $sock.say("JOIN $^chan\r" for @channels); 11:14
im2ee Works, thanks. :) 11:15
write method on IO::Socket::INET is better, isn't it? 11:19
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flussence .write would be better than mixing an explicit \r and implicit \n... 11:23
im2ee flussence, thanks :) 11:24
flussence (having a working &wrap would be better, just make $sock.say do the right thing...)
pmichaud good morning, #perl6 11:57
phenny pmichaud: 08:33Z <mberends> tell pmichaud the next timing accuracy improvement in Test.pm will be to move $time_before and $time_after assignments out from proclaim() to ok(), is*(), diag() etc, because some of those do lots of work before calling proclaim(). There should be negligible performance impact, but I'd like your opinion before proceeding. Also, there will probably be a few sub-microsecond times soon. We could record nanoseconds instead of micr
pmichaud mberends: I'll go with your judgement on this one. 12:00
mberends pmichaud: ok, we'll give it a try. Results so far are encouraging :) I'm curious how Niecza measures up. 12:02
the delay in is_deeply() is probably huge, and nondeterministic 12:04
bbkr_ rakudo: "aa" ~~ /(a)($0)/; $1.say # bug? 12:17
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«␤»
moritz yes 12:19
rakudo: "aa" ~~ /(a)($0)/; $0.say
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«a␤»
bbkr_ reported 12:20
moritz bbkr_++
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tadzik im2ee: good to see you around :) 12:42
PerlJam good * #perl6 12:45
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im2ee tadzik, good to see you too. :) 12:57
mls morning perl6! 13:00
If you're interested whay perl6 does when it compiles the setting: www4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/~ml...ing.out.gz 13:01
It's in kcachegrind input format 13:02
I've patched parrot's runloop to collect call statistics 13:05
bbkr_ rakudo: sub foo ( /abc/ ) { 1 }; foo( Regex ); # bug with method delegation?
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot use a value type constraints whose value is unknown at compile time at line 1, near ") { 1 }; f"␤»
bbkr_ std: sub foo ( /abc/ ) { 1 }; # i don't know what kind of monster is it, but STD allows such declaration, therefore foo(Regex) should delegate 13:07
p6eval std e3c970e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 123m␤»
flussence mls++
moritz bbkr_: I think it's a limitation in rakudo's current handling of constraints and literals 13:08
flussence (seems like the grammar is the slowest part...)
PerlJam using grammar is always faster than parsing grammar ;) 13:09
moritz mls++ 13:10
lineof is the function that takes the most time 13:11
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mls it is? 13:12
I don't see it 13:13
moritz mls: that's what your report says when I sort by the 'self' column in kcachegrind
flussence it's the longest per-call, it only gets called 18k times though 13:14
mls it takes the most ops, but you can switch to 'cycles'
flussence oh, *now* it makes more sense... 13:15
moritz mls: do you know what <cycle 7> as a routine name means?
flussence (.new looked strangely lightweight before)
mls turn off cycle detection
moritz ah 13:16
mls you get a cycle when you do recursion
moritz so post_children takes up a lot of time 13:17
ah, it shows the cycles in in the right window
moritz finally learns how to kcachegrind :-) 13:18
PerlJam attr gets called a lot 13:19
mls: can you patch rakudo to do the same thing but for perl 6 subs/methods? :) 13:20
flussence protoregex appears to be where a lot of the slowness in parsing originates 13:21
im2ee What means Z? (e.g. in @@( <a b> Z <c d> )) And where can I use this? :)
moritz im2ee: it's the "zip" operator
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flussence rakudo: say ('a'..'f' Z 1..6).perl 13:22
moritz rakudo: say (<a b c> Z 1, 2, 3).perl
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«(("a", 1), ("b", 2), ("c", 3), ("d", 4), ("e", 5), ("f", 6)).list␤»
rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«(("a", 1), ("b", 2), ("c", 3)).list␤»
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im2ee Great! Thanks :) 13:24
.oO( there's also the XZXZXZX operator, but we don't talk about that one here... )
arnsholt But no XYZZY? =) 13:30
PerlJam we've got Z X R and S I believe so far. Dunno what Y would be. 13:33
oh, and E too 13:35
flussence E? 13:36
flussence only knows the first three
PerlJam S03:2152
flussence aha
im2ee I know only Z :) hah 13:37
Everything is waiting for me.
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moritz robey.lag.net/2011/04/30/dissolving...terns.html # seems the Builder pattern could be replaced entirely with named arguments 13:45
tadzik my physics is waiting for me, heh 13:50
moritz wishes tadzik best of luck 13:51
tadzik thanks. For now, I need some best of motivation :)
moritz rakudo: say (my @motivation).elems 13:52
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«0␤»
moritz seems motivation is out. Try sense of duty instead.
tadzik hmm, will think about it 13:54
rakudo: say "charmander".chars 13:55
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«10␤»
tadzik I liked "nom:", it was short
flussence rakudo: sub prefix:<+~>(Str $s) { $s.chars }; say +~'abcdef'; 13:56
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«0␤»
flussence rakudo: sub prefix:<+~>(Str $s) { $s.chars }; say +~ 'abcdef';
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«0␤»
flussence hm
rakudo: sub prefix:<+>(Str $s) { $s.chars }; say +'abcdef'; 13:57
p6eval rakudo 2bac6a: OUTPUT«6␤»
.oO(if only there was a unicode symbol for "number of chars" I could use there...)
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flussence std: sub prefix:<+>(&infix<~>:($a, $b)) { } # I wonder... 13:59
p6eval std e3c970e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse signature at /tmp/ZI_A6jK7jN line 1:␤------> sub prefix:<+>⏏(&infix<~>:($a, $b)) { } # I wonder...␤Couldn't find final ')'; gave up at /tmp/ZI_A6jK7jN line 1:␤------> sub prefix:<+>(&infix⏏[…
flussence nope, too crazy of an idea :) 14:00
std: sub prefix:<+>(&infix:<~>:($a, $b)) { }