»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
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ihavetoes_ perl6: say 3; 00:21
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6, niecza v19-13-g442e075: OUTPUT«3␤»
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Su-Shee good morning everyone. 06:27
tadzik hey hey Su-Shee 06:28
moritz \o * 06:31
sorear o/ 06:35
Su-Shee moritz: are you throwing a snowball at me in JULY? ;) 06:36
moritz Su-Shee: I'm just wild-card snowballing everyone :-) 06:37
Su-Shee o/* <- I'm going to use that in winter. ;) 06:39
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mathw Morning o/ 07:53
tadzik hello mathw
mathw I have to find out some Perl 5-y stuff for work (unfortunately Perl 6 doesn't display the required performance characteristics yet), does anybody know the right place for me to look for database access best practice? 07:54
tadzik bobby-tables.com/perl.html :) 07:56
Su-Shee mathw: you mean other than using DBI? (or DBIx::Class if you prefer an ORM)
mathw tadzik: that's a good start, fortunately I knew that bit already :) 07:57
tadzik :)
moritz the most important advise is 1) don't do stupid stuff 2) use indexes wisely
mathw Su-Shee: I've always just used DBI before, but I'm looking at this blank screen here and wondering if the mess I always end up in is actually necessary
Su-Shee mathw: well I don't have a mess usally, so I'd probably say: "no, it's not". but you use DBI, yes and then your application somewhat decides what else you really need - some SQL abstraction, something more ORM-ish and so on.. there isn't really a "do this that way" in the end (set aside "avoid injections" ;) 07:59
mathw believe me, avoiding injections is always at the top of my priority list :)
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mathw what's the performance overhead with DBIx::Class? 08:00
moritz small enough that the bottleneck is still mostly the DB
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mathw awesome 08:00
Su-Shee mathw: measure it? after you made sure that you get your selects etc right?
moritz though you have to be a bit careful to prefetch related objects that you're going to need anyway
otherwise you're setting off a ton of requests 08:01
but DBIx::Class has an awesome environment variable DBIC_TRACE=1
it shows all the DB quries fired
and it makes it pretty obvious where to add prefetches
Su-Shee it has also quite good documentation what ORM construct gets translated into what kind of SQL
mathw that's good 08:02
I've used entity framework a lot, and that can be a tad opaque without external sniffer tools to figure out what SQL's being generated
which is usually the key to figuring out why some query is unexpectedly slow 08:03
because the framework goes and generates 10,000 different selects when it could've done it in just one if you'd given it a bit more of a hint
moritz well, DBIC_TRACE really helps there 08:04
mathw sounds like it
I'll look into it, thanks
sorry about co-opting the channel to talk about Perl 5
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Su-Shee well so far I didn't really like treating SQL in an object manner so I tend to actually try to fetch data mostly and return it in a handy, meaningful way. I usally think more about what part I want to leave to the db and how much I put into the application level code... 08:05
mathw: well the same problem would apply to a perl6 DBI versus DBIx::Class ...
do you want ORM or not. 08:06
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mathw I oscillate wildly between the two, usually when one approach causes me headaches that wouldn't be caused by the other 08:06
For this particular application, it may well be easier just to tuck some plain DBI code away in its own module. All the database access and update code in one place and out of the way so there's not SQL scattered all over 08:07
Su-Shee mathw: well not scattering sql all over is more of a discipline question. :) 08:08
moritz aye
if you use DBIx::Class, you can also scatter queries all over the code base
mathw There is that :) 08:09
moritz it's not directly SQL, but it still reflects the DB structure very closely
mathw Can you tell that the code this is based on is a digusting mess?
Su-Shee mathw: how do you mean?
moritz so you need some discipline to put such queries in methods in the result or resultset classes 08:10
brrt oh, there is a (there are many) solution to scattering sql queries
Su-Shee mathw: if I see a DB related call somewhere within handling buttons to display whether or not userlevel X can have this interaction, I know the architecture is a mess.
mathw The reassuring thing I'm getting from this conversation is that what I should be doing is exactly what I'd do in any other language. 08:12
Su-Shee mathw: good architecture and good code is good architecture and good code in any of the code cultures... 08:13
mathw: I personally put an effort into loose coupling which I have come to value a lot because it makes throwing away some old thingie and plugging in something new easier. So I try to do things not being tightly integrated with a lot of hidden magic. 08:14
brrt what about the 'adapter pattern' (my own device) 08:15
Su-Shee So I would keep my SQL relatively standing on its own so if in doubt, I could switch from let's say Perl DBI to something else.
moritz loose coupling also helps a great deal with testing
brrt its a class that reads a file of queries, and converts them into callable methods
i'll gist it
Su-Shee brrt: I'm not a fan of pattern, I use and see value in maybe two or three
brrt Su-Shee: i am fan of pattern because it can help you think about code abstractly 08:16
mathw a lot of formalised patterns just say to me 'you're usin ghte wrong programming language', but sometimes pattern-y things are useful
Su-Shee moritz: on top of that, yes. but it makes coding harder, you really have to understand how to pass things from A to B properly.
mathw loose coupling is definitely the way to do Stuff. 08:17
brrt then you are using the patterns wrongly
or, the wrong patterns
:-)
moritz Su-Shee: OTOH it makes coding easier, because you only have to know the interface, not the whole layer
Su-Shee brrt: you realize that in many dynamic languages most of the pattern are useless at best and really just "bad code" at worst?
moritz: I've recently played with Mongrel2, which forced me into "no coupling" thinking, really interesting lessons. 08:18
brrt gist.github.com/3081997 08:21
oh, yes, if think that all patterns are the patterns of 1995
dynamic languages need / use new patterns 08:22
its just that most of them are so short they are called idioms instead :-)
or bigger things, such as Active Record 08:23
(yes, thats php you see there, so sue me)
moritz sues brrt
tadzik hugme: sue brrt
Su-Shee unless a concept or idea doesn't give me a real elegant simplification AND more flexibility, I'm not convinced. 08:24
and no, I'm not taking one without the other. so "more flexibility" for the price of "complicating things": no.
moritz hoelz.ro/blog/another-look-at-perl-6 08:25
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jnthn morning o/ 08:26
moritz \o jnthn 08:27
mathw IJLTS: Visitor Pattern
brrt i think there are lot of concepts and / or ideas that will simplify things 08:28
what about parallelisation? 08:29
there a lot of 'patterns' that hugely simplify things
map/reduce is perhaps the most hyped
but the 'unix process' is a pattern of sorts, too 08:30
moritz thinks about a completely generic visitor
sub visit(:$start, :&pre, :&post, :&children, :&assemble) or so 08:31
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moritz $start is the root of the tree 08:31
&pre the code be run pre-order
&post is post-order
mathw I always felt visitor is just a substitution for an insufficiently powerful programming language. Maybe that's because I learned it in Java.
Su-Shee I usally think about how I can get rid of more code, throw away another module and make things simpler. ;)
moritz children($start) gives $start's children
mathw: well, Pod::To::{HTML,Text,$other_formats} need to visit all Pod nodes to do their work 08:32
Su-Shee mathw: there's an interesting presentation by peter norvig why 17 of the 23 orginal pattern are obsolete in lisp, dylan or smalltalk... which probably means it applys to perl6 as well...
mathw moritz: that's a tree fold though, not a visitor pattern. visitor is a substitution for multiple dispatch. 08:33
moritz mathw: oh
mathw: then my terminology is off :-)
mathw to be fair, if I'd needed to name what you just talked about i'd probably have called it visiting
moritz I never read the Gang of Four book
mathw Su-Shee: I would imagine so, yes. Many of them are also obsolete in other good programming languages 08:34
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Su-Shee moritz: ignore it. it's really mostly irrelevant in our culture. the orginal book by alexander is really cool though and also the "book in the middle" by richard gabriel ("patterns of software hmhmhm") is very valuable to read (he's the lucid emacs lisp guy who wrote the "worse is better" articles - also a very good read.)
mathw: use Moose;
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mathw Su-Shee: succinct and to the point :) 08:36
actually I've never used Moose
brrt mathw: Package foo; sub new { bless {}, shift; }
moritz Su-Shee: I hadn't planned on reading it
mathw brrt: this is my usual approach :)
brrt mine as well
dumb, fast, highly effective
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sorear mathw: IJLTS eh. 08:37
mathw sorear: call me a lazy typist 08:39
tadzik I can't imagine when not using Moose is the Lazy approach :) 08:41
sorear actually, I'm going to call you a probable zephyr user and/or mit alum
mathw sorear: neither
tadzik: not using Moose probably gets out of control fairly quickly. I'm now reading the Moose docs 08:42
sorear sleep&
arnsholt I started using Moose (or actually Moo) for my most recent Perl 5 project
mathw argh no Moose
arnsholt I'm very happy with it so far
tadzik mathw: get used to it, p5-mop is coming, want it or not :) 08:43
daxim DO WANT!
moritz I'm sure there will be lighter-than-moose OO solutions baesd on p5-mop
tadzik see github.com/stevan/p5-mop/blob/mast...-example.t
moritz (if nobody else does, I'll provide one :-)
tadzik does that look good :]
mathw oh 08:44
my
tadzik yes. This test does run
moritz tadzik: but that looks just like a class, not "real" MOP
tadzik yes 08:45
mathw I'm going to assume it's just using the default metaclass
tadzik that's just an example of how Moose-like syntax looks there
there are tests for mop bits as well
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sergot hi o/ 08:48
tadzik \o
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Su-Shee there are _three_ lighter moose-style MOPs already. mouse, moo and another one. 08:52
arnsholt Mo is the bare-bonest of them I think
mathw so the next one's going to be called M then? 08:54
arnsholt I think mst did leave that option open, yes =)
moritz and the next one after that will be called ''
you'll have to write $::{''} or so to get at it 08:55
mathw use ''; object();
arnsholt Ah, no. Mo is Ingy, actually
"Moose is huge. Moose led to Mouse led to Moo led to Mo. M is nothing. Mo is more. Not much."
tadzik after M there will be this viking rune 08:56
|\ or so
moritz oh, and then I
moritz is sorely tempted to write Acme::I 08:57
mathw So, it turns out I can't use Moose or Mouse or anything because the target box has a too-old Perl with a somehow-busted CPAN and I can't get it upgraded. 09:01
moritz perlbrew to the rescure
*rescue
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mathw interesting 09:03
mathw has a think about how that might fit into this system
btw you guys are awesome
(and I'm sure you recognise my use of 'guys' in a colloquial sort of gender-neutral manner) 09:04
muixirt hi there, will callbacks be implemented in zavolaj any time soon? 09:05
arnsholt muixirt: My current plan was to wait a bit longer, but some of my other plans have fallen through so I might be convinced to change my mind 09:11
What're you looking at working with?
muixirt arnsholt: nothing particular, but it seems callbacks are important for transfering data back and forth like libcurl 09:12
not to mention gui frameworks... 09:14
arnsholt Yeah, it's something I'd like to get in 09:15
moritz (off-topic but cool: what-if.xkcd.com/1/ )
arnsholt muixirt: But there are some issues with the implementation (namely, me not knowing how to actually implement it properly), so it might be a little while 09:21
jnthn dyncall has some callback stuff that will do some of the heavy lifting. But then there's till plenty of other scary bits.
arnsholt Yeah, it's the other scary bits that are the problem right now 09:22
muixirt moritz: send that link to DHS, the pitchers have to be screened
arnsholt The dyncallback stuff looks reasonably straightforward
muixirt arnsholt: ok, no problem
dyncallback? 09:23
arnsholt It's the callback part of the dyncall library, which is what NQP uses to do the C-calling bits 09:24
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arnsholt jnthn: What's a good place to look at for figuring how to call a P6/Parrot sub from C? 09:27
moritz dyncall.org/stable/manual.pdf
tadzik oh oh, stuff gets exciting
moritz arnsholt: src/ops/perl6.ops has several examples 09:28
arnsholt: look for Parrot_pcc_invoke_sub_from_c_args
and Parrot_pcc_invoke_from_sig_object
arnsholt Cheers! 09:29
moritz has fiddled with Parrot_pcc_invoke_sub_from_c_args for the exception stuff
hoelzro how does one build the docs in github.com/perl6/doc? 09:36
moritz hoelzro: you mean, generate the HTML? 09:37
panda install Pod::To::HTML; ./htmlify
erm, ./htmlify.pl
though you can use the bin/p6doc command to read some docs directly 09:38
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moritz dyncall.org/stable/manual.pdf page 49, Status "dyncallback is buggy" 09:40
jnthn arnsholt: What moritz++ said. Building the sig object will be the slightly fun part. :) 09:42
arnsholt That's for 32-bit PPC SysV (early OS X I assume), no?
jnthn: Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how these Parrot_pcc_* things work now
I think there might be some code using that which git blame will assign to me, but I cargo-culted all that from jnthn-code O:) 09:43
moritz why do we need to build a signature object at all? 09:44
can't we just assume that callbacks have zero args, and handle all the marshalling with p6 level closures?
hm, might be more expensive though 09:45
oh, and I'm completely wrong. Never mind me.
arnsholt Yeah, I was trying to see how to get the C-level data back to P6
moritz maybe we need the same marshalling as for the existing NCI return values 09:46
arnsholt Yeah, the callback handler will have to marshal all the C args to the correct objects, then set up the call and finally invoke it 09:47
moritz sounds like a MMOP :-) 09:48
jnthn Really though, that logic is similar to what we do now for marshalling return values.
moritz (medium-sized atter of programming)
*matter
arnsholt Yeah, the marshalling I'm expecting to be able to steal a lot of from the return value stuff 09:49
jnthn Well, or refactor so those can be called directly.
arnsholt Or that
You beat me to writing it =)
hoelzro moritz: No such method 'f' for invocant of type 'Str' 09:52
I get that error from htmlify
moritz hoelzro: then your rakudo isn't new enough
hoelzro how new does it need to be? 09:53
I'm using Rakudo * 2012.06
moritz needs to be newer than that
hoelzro =(
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hoelzro does anyone have a tool for managing two Rakudo installs? =) 09:54
tadzik hmm. Could we teach perlbrew to install Rakudo as well? :)
moritz we might be better off writing our own 6brew 09:55
tadzik Well, I don't think it's worth to duplicate the effort is there's a good, working thing. Maybe a fork would be better
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hoelzro tadzik: but we'd need it to be in Perl6 =) 09:59
which presents a bootstrapping issue
unless we say "just install Rakudo *, then use 6brew"
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arnsholt idly wonders what would happen if you did pthread_create(&my-function, ...) in Perl 6 10:06
moritz segfault? 10:07
:-)
arnsholt Well, actually yes
arnsholt misread the manpage 10:08
Actually, output parameters is something I don't think Zavolaj can do yet
moritz you mean, besides arrays? 10:09
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kresike hello all you happy perl6 people 10:09
moritz \o kresike
arnsholt Right, the array hack. Forgot about that one
kresike moritz, o/ 10:10
flussence outparams do work: github.com/flussence/perl6-XMMS2/b...lue.pm6#L9
moritz wait, what? 10:11
you can just add 'is rw', and it DTRT?
flussence yep
jnthn o.O
I didn't know that was implemented!
moritz flussence: does that pointerize the parameter? 10:12
jnthn But, nice! :)
flussence moritz: honestly, I don't know how it works, other than it does :)
moritz :-)
moritz wonders if it's an accident
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moritz flussence: can you test if it still "works" if you remove the "is rw" (by accident, that is)? 10:13
arnsholt I had no idea either. Wonder why
moritz so, nobody implemented it :-)
flussence moritz: don't have access to a working rakudo until I get out of $dayjob later :/ 10:14
moritz flussence: no hurry
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[Coke] chuckles at the internets: 13:10
¯\(°_o)/¯
colomon _/(°_o)\_ 13:11
tadzik （　｀ー´） 13:16
moritz |.......|
JimmyZ O(∩_∩)O 13:17
moritz \ /
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PerlJam
.oO( ... and it's all valid Perl 6! )
 13:23
[Coke] r: ¯\(°_o)/¯ 13:24
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/ZDamakwAex:1␤»
[Coke] r: :P
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: ( no output )
[Coke] ... huh.
r: :P.say
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«"P" => Bool::True␤»
jnthn r: :D.say
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«"D" => Bool::True␤»
jnthn :)
tadzik r: Cool:D 13:25
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: ( no output )
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tadzik r: Cool :D 13:26
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/V06VR6yF5F:1␤»
tadzik bah
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moritz r: Cool(:D) 13:28
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«No such method 'Cool' for invocant of type 'Parcel'␤ in <anon> at src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.pm:804␤ in <anon> at src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.pm:801␤ in any <anon> at src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.pm:796␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/OopKddJzN2:1␤␤»
jnthn r: not Cool 13:29
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: ( no output )
moritz r: not so Cool
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: ( no output )
JimmyZ r: so Cool 13:31
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: ( no output )
JimmyZ r: say so Cool
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«False␤»
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JimmyZ r: say not so Cool 13:34
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«True␤»
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arnsholt jnthn: Where does the -I flags adding the dyncall dirs get specified? 13:52
I need to fiddle with them to get the dyncallback header working
jnthn arnsholt: In the Makefile, iirc
arnsholt Well, yes. But the Makefile is generated, and I can't seem to pin down where it comes from 13:53
[Coke] r: Rat and so not Cool but Whatever
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: ( no output )
moritz r: Rat and so Cool but not Whatever 13:54
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: ( no output )
arnsholt Looks like it's from @ccflags@
JimmyZ r: say Rat and so not Cool but Whatever 13:55
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«Rat()␤Cannot mix in non-composable type Whatever into object of type Cool␤ in sub infix:<but> at src/gen/CORE.setting:11329␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/4THWQqU0X8:1␤␤»
JimmyZ r: say Rat and so Cool but not Whatever
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«Rat()␤»
JimmyZ n: say Rat and so not Cool but Whatever 13:56
p6eval niecza v19-13-g442e075: OUTPUT«Rat()␤»
JimmyZ so, rakudo bug or niecza bug? 13:57
n: say Rat and so Cool but not Whatever 13:58
p6eval niecza v19-13-g442e075: OUTPUT«Rat()␤Unhandled exception: Cannot initialize a slot when mixing into a type object␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1359 (infix:<does> @ 23) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1363 (infix:<but> @ 4) ␤ at /tmp/CjkwhOIi3r line 1 (…
colomon martinsprogrammingblog.blogspot.de/...-slow.html
JimmyZ hmm, niecza and rakudo are different outputs 13:59
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colomon clojureclr.blogspot.com/2011/12/usi...reclr.html 14:00
pmichaud good morning, #perl6 14:04
jnthn: ping 14:05
moritz good am, pm
colomon \o
jnthn pmichaud: pong 14:07
arnsholt: Sorry, had phone call. tools/build/Makefile.in
arnsholt: And running Configure.pl updates it.
JimmyZ who can tell whether it's rakudo bug or niecza bug?
pmichaud jnthn: I'm looking at typed arrays and typed lists; is there a strong reason why the TypedArray code was done in Array and not List ? 14:08
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jnthn JimmyZ: Rakudo's error seems more awesome to me. 14:09
JimmyZ: I'm not sure either implementation is wrong to refuse to do it.
pmichaud: Hmm.
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jnthn pmichaud: Perhaps not wanting to prematurely generalize. 14:09
JimmyZ jnthn: thanks
jnthn pmichaud: I don't think we have syntax for constructing a typed list? :) 14:10
pmichaud jnthn: wouldn't it be just List[Int] ?
jnthn pmichaud: ah
pmichaud: Yeah
Duh :)
moritz erm
jnthn was thinking Parcel instead of List somehow
moritz wouldn't that imply that List is a role?
jnthn blames thinking about difficult $dayjob problem at the same time as this :) 14:11
moritz: Array manages not to be.
moritz or is it simply a call to &.[] ?
jnthn In general, the way I factored the MOP is that there's a fairly generic way to respond to "parameterize me"
pmichaud and technically I'm wondering if my Int @a say something about the typed-ness of the @a symbol
jnthn For RoleHOW it does what you'd expect.
pmichaud *says
jnthn: that was my other question -- whether the interface used by Array for typedness is "canonical" 14:12
jnthn For ClassHOW it calls a method on the type which, if it exists, can do the right thing.
moritz Positional[Int] I'd guess
jnthn Positional[Int] is a role.
Note that
r: my @a; say @a.WHAT
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«Array()␤»
jnthn r: my Int @a; say @a.WHAT
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«Array+{TypedArray}()␤»
jnthn r: my Int @a; say @a ~~ Positonal[Int] 14:13
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&Positonal' called (line 1)␤»
moritz (I mean, 'my Int @a' should type-constraint @a to Positional[Int])
jnthn r: my Int @a; say @a ~~ Positional[Int]
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«True␤»
jnthn moritz: I think it is.
moritz \o/
jnthn my Int @a; my Str @b; @a := @b
r: my Int @a; my Str @b; @a := @b
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding; expected 'Positional' but got 'Array+{TypedArray}'␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/1yhc6IvKQt:1␤␤»
moritz r: my Int @a := Positional[Int]
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: ( no output )
moritz r: my Int @a := Positional[Str]
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«Type check failed in binding; expected 'Positional' but got 'Positional'␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/nIniw5uvLu:1␤␤»
jnthn The output of all this is sucky though. :/
As in, error reporting output.
14:14 thou left
jnthn was sure he'd implemented the naming stuff. 14:14
r: say Positional[Int]
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«Positional()␤»
jnthn Hmm
moritz r: say Positional[Int].^name
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«Positional␤»
pmichaud r: my Int @a; say @a ~~ Positional 14:17
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«True␤»
pmichaud r: my Int @a; say @a ~~ Positional[Mu]
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«True␤»
pmichaud r: my Int @a; say @a ~~ Positional[Str]
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«False␤»
pmichaud r: my @a; say @a ~~ Positional[Str]
moritz it's... contravariant, iirc
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«False␤»
pmichaud r: my @a; say @a ~~ Positional[Mu] 14:18
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«False␤»
jnthn There's another oddity. Since Array already has Positional (unparameterized) mixed in, the typed array now has Positional mixed in twice. :/
pmichaud right. That's the part that I'm worried about.
jnthn s/mixed in/composed
Me too.
pmichaud I really want Array (and List) to have Positional[::T] already in them.
and not have a composed-in role for some arrays/lists but not for others 14:19
moritz and the obvious solution is to introduce parametric classes
pmichaud basically, "Array" and "List" should act like "Array[Mu]" and "List[Mu]"
jnthn Do you want List and Array to not be a role too?
moritz hides from jnthn++'s death glares 14:20
pmichaud I don't minid if List and Array are roles.... but just keep in mind that they're _really_ fundamental types to much of the system.
*mind
as in, we use List and Array directly in the binder
14:20 wtw left
jnthn Well, yeah, parametricism has always created bootstrappy fun. 14:20
We'd end up doing this with Hash EnumMap too. 14:21
*and
pmichaud r: say Positional[Str] ~~ Positional[Mu] 14:22
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«True␤»
jnthn moritz: The fact that classes are open and roles are closed plays into this.
pmichaud r: say Positional[Mu] ~~ Positional[Str]
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«False␤»
pmichaud very nice (and interesting) :-)
moritz jnthn: I thought so, yes 14:23
jnthn moritz: When you do generic instantiation of a role, it produces a new meta-object to represnet the concrete role.
That gets the stuff copied over.
This goes quite a bit deeper than "just make classes take type parameters" :)
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pmichaud and in this case "just make bootstrapped classes take type parameters" 14:24
jnthn All of this said...
A class is never generic on the invocant.
Ho! 14:25
I guess what we really want here is...
That Array is able to claim to implement Positional[Int] or whatever if asked. And the decision is at an *object* level. 14:26
moritz as long as it doesn't make type checking slower... (which we really want to be fast)
jnthn Not at a type level.
Yes, making this fast is a challenge. :)
pmichaud shouldn't be 14:27
a typed array simply creates typed scalars
jnthn But a solvable one.
moritz pmichaud: but what does that make of typed lists?
jnthn pmichaud: I'm more worried about the @foo ~~ Positional[Int] style checks.
pmichaud jnthn: those have to be fast?
jnthn pmichaud: Well, they have to be not slow :)
pmichaud: I mean, sub foo(Int @bar) { } # boils down to that 14:28
pmichaud basically, a typed array just has an 'of' method, yes? 14:29
jnthn pmichaud: That's the introspection-y way of asking what kind of array it is, yes 14:30
That method comes from the parametric Positional role.
I think I'm starting to see how something could work out and perform decently.
pmichaud jnthn: does it work out such that arrays (and lists) don't get a new role composed into them? 14:31
jnthn pmichaud: yes.
pmichaud okay, then I'm happy.
jnthn pmichaud: Well, it works out such that individual objects contribute to the type check.
pmichaud what happens if I do .WHAT on those objects?
jnthn my Int @foo; # It's an Array as a type; under type check it will claim to do Positional[Int] 14:32
moritz so
jnthn pmichaud: Array type object
pmichaud what about @foo.WHAT ~~ Positional[Int] ?
jnthn False
moritz my Int @a; my Str @b; @a.WHAT === @b.WHAT # True
pmichaud ...and that's okay?
jnthn That's the downside.
Well, the point of the mixing in is to produce a new type. 14:33
Is your problem the mixing in itself, or the visible fallout of doing so?
pmichaud more the visible fallout, I think (more)
if this were a pure-ish Perl 6 then I'd be declaring class List[::T] does Positional[T] { ... }
and _that's_ what I wish our List would start out as, without any mixing in 14:34
jnthn *nod*
pmichaud or, more precisely:
class List[::T = Mu] does Positional[T] { ... }
jnthn Right 14:35
But that means giving classes type args. 14:36
pmichaud they don't have them now?
jnthn No.
Only roles are parametric.
pmichaud oh!
jnthn It's always been that way.
pmichaud well, in that case, I'm in favor of our List starting out as a role :-)
moritz oh oh oh 14:37
jnthn :)
moritz that will be rather confusing, and it will make it much harder to monkey-type with $!storage or whatever it's called from within other classes
jnthn Indeed. 14:38
pmichaud is it?
It just means we use $?CLASS instead of the hard-coded List, yes?
jnthn Inside the class, yes.
pmichaud well, outside we shouldn't be monkey-typing with the storage, I don't think.
moritz oh, and in future we'll have attributes mixed in from a role stored separately
pmichaud: but we do now 14:39
pmichaud: for example in Array
jnthn
.oO( Why do I get the impression I'm about to spend a bunch of time re-working roles... )
moritz (we mess with List's $!items in Array)
jnthn pmichaud: Do we declare List and Array in bootstrap? If so, what for? 14:40
pmichaud jnthn: I think various parts of the compilation process expect to know about Array
i.e., even when there's not a setting present.
for example: my @a; 14:41
I don't have any heartache if List/Array aren't declared in bootstrap, no.
I just think other parts of the compiler might. :)
jnthn pmichaud: Ah, yeah. 14:42
moritz $ ack -w '(List|Array)' src/Perl6/|wc -l
45
jnthn You can't partially declare roles really
And until Array is known as a type, you can't write the @ sigil
pmichaud moritz: the parts where Array monkeytypes with $!items is likely fixable
jnthn We depend on the openness.
pmichaud let's step back one moment :-) 14:44
I have a different question 14:45
r: my $l = (3,4,5).list; say $l.WHAT;
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«List()␤»
pmichaud good
r: my $l = (3,4,5).list; say $l.of;
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
moritz steps back and decommutes
pmichaud also good
so how would I use the result of .of to constrain a scalar variable? I.e., something like my ::type = self.of; my type $v; 14:47
jnthn r: sub foo(::T) is rw { my ::T $v }; say foo(Int).VAR.of 14:48
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«No such method 'of' for invocant of type 'Scalar'␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/qN4wpojw9a:1␤␤»
jnthn r: sub foo(::T) is rw { my ::T $v }; say foo(Int).VAR.type
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«No such method 'type' for invocant of type 'Scalar'␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/IBmi0HXAmt:1␤␤»
jnthn hmm
r: sub foo(::T) is rw { my ::T $v }; say foo(Int) 14:49
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«Int␤»
pmichaud isn't it my T $v ?
(no colons)
jnthn d'oh
r: sub foo(::T) is rw { my T $v }; say foo(Int)
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«Int␤»
jnthn Yeah; I guess it ignores the colons
r: sub foo(::T) is rw { my ::Te $v }; say foo(Int)
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«Cannot call a method on type variable Te␤ in any find_method at src/gen/Metamodel.pm:282␤ in method gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:725␤ in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:6975␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/6YX5jV1k4j:1␤␤»
14:50 cognominal left
jnthn Oh heh, and there it declares it with an uninstantiated type var... 14:50
That should probably not be allowed.
muixirt hi again, is LWP::Simple known to work? I get a segfault at «use LWP::Simple»
pmichaud what about my $v of $type ? does that work at all?
tadzik muixirt: it worked last time I tried 14:51
muixirt: what Rakudo/LWP are you on?
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pmichaud r: my $type = Int; my $v of $type; say $v 14:51
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/Q2xy7Va1rr:1␤»
muixirt R* 2012.06
jnthn pmichaud: Parse error; the of trait expects a type after it.
pmichaud: It's probably easiest to create an op that knows how to create a Scalar based on a certain container descriptor 14:52
(Since we only want one of those per array) 14:53
pmichaud ...one of those per array? 14:54
jnthn pmichaud: The container descriptor is the thing that holds the rw and type flags for a scalar.
pmichaud right 14:55
jnthn pmichaud: For a given array, all of the scalars we create should really share one.
pmichaud when I declare a scalr, it doesn't have a type already?
or, put another way: how is my $x different from my Int $x ?
jnthn The $!descriptor pointed to by Scalar has a different value in $!of 14:56
The descriptor is the "static bits" of the declaration. 14:57
pmichaud every scalar gets its own descriptor?
jnthn Yes
Well, to be clear.
Every scalar that statically appears in the source code gets its own descriptor.
muixirt tadzik: your last try was with R* 2012.06? 14:58
jnthn Every instance of Scalar just points to the relevant static one.
pmichaud so how does my T $v work?
jnthn It's a bit like how we used to put the type into the prophash. Apart from rather more efficient. :)
The statically created descriptor contains a type variable. 14:59
The declaration of the variable causes .instantiate_generic to be called with the current type environment.
tadzik muixirt: according to tjs.azalayah.net/new.html my last try was at 2012-06-09T11:37:43Z on rakudo 2012.05-221-g0fde4a1 :) 15:00
jnthn Which produces a specialized container descriptor.
pmichaud: More specifically, it compiles down to something like 15:01
$v := $v.VAR.instantiate_generic($type_env)
pmichaud okay, that just went beyond my current level of understanding :) 15:03
jnthn oops :)
Which bit was confuzzling? :)
pmichaud well, all of it was at the edge of understanding; that last bit just stepped over the line :)
PerlJam jnthn: what's a "type environment"? 15:04
pmichaud yeah, I think "type environment" threw me.
jnthn Oh!
Something that you can use to turn a type variable name into the current type.
sub foo(::T) { my T $x }
pmichaud does it have to be a type variable name, ooc? 15:05
jnthn So here, when we compile this, we don't know what T is
pmichaud I mean, why isn't it simply "turn this thing into the current type" ?
jnthn When we call foo, we bind T to the type we captured.
Say we did foo(42)
pmichaud right.... isn't T just an entry in the lexpad?
jnthn The type environment is like a hash T => Int
pmichaud: At the moment we actually use the lexpad to be the type environment. That is...not the best of ideas it turns out. 15:06
PerlJam jnthn: so, it's kind of like a thunk that maps variables to types (dynamically)?
jnthn pmichaud: But the code just expects something hash-like.
pmichaud r: sub foo(::T $x) { say T; }; foo(42)
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
pmichaud the lexpad seems the most logical to me, yes.
jnthn PerlJam: It's just the map
pmichaud: Well, it breaks down though :(
In a silly way I shoulda seen coming. 15:07
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jnthn sub foo(::T1) { sub bar() { my T1 $x }; bar() } 15:07
grondilu failed compiling the june edition of rakudo-star
jnthn lexpad isn't a view down through the scopes.
It's just the current scope.
So, d'oh. I need to fix this thing still.
pmichaud but when you do the instantiate_generic(...) --- can't the ... just be an expression lookup? 15:08
in the case of my T1 $x, you just lexically lookup T1 and then use that to instantiate the variable?
jnthn pmichaud: There's no reason it can't be compiled to .instantiate_generic(nqp::hash('T1', T1)), yes.
That's the fix I'm thinking of. 15:09
grondilu: How'd it fail?
pmichaud I'm wondering why it's not .instantiate_generic(PAST::Op(...)) ?
jnthn pmichaud: I'm confused.
:) 15:10
pmichaud instantiate_generic is something called at runtime, yes?
jnthn pmichaud: It may happen at compile time.
pmichaud in the case of my T1 $x
jnthn pmichaud: Oh, wait, we may be not quite on the same page...
Yes, that happens at runtime
I was talking about the call that we'd make rather than the code that we emit 15:11
pmichaud and when it's called, it gets passed a type object?
jnthn What it gets passed today is the lexpad, which it uses to look up T1.
pmichaud why not have it be passed the type object?
jnthn Here it is: 15:12
if %cont_info<bind_constraint>.HOW.archetypes.generic {
$past := QAST::Op.new(
:op('callmethod'), :name('instantiate_generic'),
QAST::Op.new( :op('p6var'), $past ),
QAST::Op.new( :op('curlexpad') ));
}
The whole instantiate_generic thing you see here is replicated in a bunch of places. It's not just about container descriptors.
In
role Foo[::T1, ::T2] { method bar(T1, T2) { } } 15:13
When we make that into a concrete role, we pass the lexpad of the role down to instantiate_generic of each of the methods.
So the answer in general is "there may be lots of type objects"
In this *specific* case, yes, we could get away with passing down one type.
pmichaud okay. 15:14
jnthn But really it's just following a more general API.
I also wonder if at some point we may need to handle:
sub foo(::TCont, ::TValue) { my TCont[TValue] $x; } # ouch :)
Oh, that may not be so bad 15:15
Oh
The badder one is:
pmichaud yeah, that's where I feel like it ought to just be lexical lookups, instead of a specialized "type environment"
jnthn sub foo(::T1, ::T2) { my T1(T2) $x; } # whee, generic coercion types...
pmichaud I can see T1(T2) being a pain, yes.
jnthn pmichaud: Well, if you mean "hash build out of lexical lookups"? 15:16
Type variables are always lexically scoped. So at any point we know which ones are in scope.
So it's be quite easy to handle this. 15:17
pmichaud okay
so, back to my present predicament
Looking at the code again, I don't have any issue with the current role-composition mechanism for typed arrays, as long as 15:18
kresike bye all
pmichaud (1) I can put it in List instead of Array
15:18 kresike left
pmichaud (2) there's some way for me to create scalar variables that are constrained to an arbitrary type (in this case, the type returned by self.of() ) 15:18
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jnthn Do you need to create those scalars in List or Array? 15:19
pmichaud in Array
jnthn OK
pmichaud in List I'll be wanting to type check the bindings, but I can already do that from .of
jnthn In Array you already ahve a $!descriptor attribute. It should contain a ContainerDesciptor that has the correct type set in it. 15:20
In container.c we have something called scalar_from_descriptor
pmichaud I don't think I can use that if we're doing the role mixin, though.
because the role_mixin changes the Array's .of
jnthn You can always set it to a fresh container descriptor when the array is created. 15:21
There's already a perl6_create_container_descriptor
pmichaud I'm sorry, I'm _really_ confused. 15:22
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pmichaud I think you're implying some level of descriptor sharing that we don't have at present. 15:22
jnthn Right.
I'm saying that all of the scalars in a given array want to share a desciptor. 15:23
*descriptor.
Creating one for every scalar will be really wasteful
Currently we get that for untyped arrays
15:24 grondilu left
jnthn STORE_AT_POS(\$pos, Mu $v is copy) 15:24
iiuc, it's the "is copy" that creates a scalar, but since there's statically one $v the descriptor for that $v is shared.
Actually over all arrays. 15:25
pmichaud okay, I get that part.
eventually I was planning for that to become
STORE_AT_POS(\$pos, T $v is copy)
...but that's probably not going to work. 15:26
jnthn At the moment, that'll instantiate the container descriptor every single call and so we get no sharing.
pmichaud got it.
so, what I really want is
jnthn We *could* find a way to cache that I guess.
pmichaud 1. a way for an Array to give me a scalar based on its notion of ".of"
actually, that would be sufficient. I'm fine if it gives me something from its $!descriptor attribute, as long as PARAMETERIZE_TYPE(Mu $t) is also setting that descriptor. 15:27
jnthn Yes, that's what I was (badly) trying to get accross. 15:28
pmichaud it doesn't look to me as though the current PARAMTERIZE_TYPE does that.
jnthn No, it doesn't.
That's what is missing.
Or mroe to the point, what's missing is: 1) PARAMETERIZE_TYPE creating that desciptor. Difficulty: should be fairly easy, there's an op to do it. 2) A way to create a new Scalar with a certain container descriptor from code. 15:30
Well, actually, 2 is possible if you use bindattr
Since the descriptor is just an attribute on Scalar
pmichaud #2 sounds like it needs to be an op also 15:31
jnthn All this said, what is even more efficient is that you create a Scalar with the correct descriptor once, bind it somewhere, then just clone it
15:31 am0c left
pmichaud oh, if that's the case, then just make that scalar an attribute of Array 15:31
jnthn Right. :)
And at that point you may as well create it in PARAMETERIZE_TYPE 15:32
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jnthn $!protoscalar := (my T $elem); # done! 15:32
PerlJam Couldn't that "prototype" scalar also hold the default for the array?
jnthn PerlJam: Yes.
pmichaud PerlJam: and in fact, it does.
when you do a lookup of a non-existent element, you get back the default scalar. It's just that currently that's a simple "my" declaration. 15:34
jnthn: "clone a scalar" is just nqp::clone($scalar) ? 15:35
jnthn pmichaud: No, the 6model variant
pmichaud I don't know the 6model variant
jnthn pmichaud: See the method clone() in Mu
Don't know if it has an nqp:: op yet. 15:36
pmichaud repr_clone__PP
jnthn Right
pmichaud awesome.
jnthn In the end I hope we can make everything 6model-y and unify these ops...
pmichaud okay, I think I see where this goes now.
jnthn ok :)
btw
At the moment the errors you get can contain spurious $v or whatever
BUT
The container descriptor is just an object with a has str $!name or so
pmichaud got it. 15:37
jnthn So you can maybe set it to "array element" so the errors read better :)
pmichaud does $!protoscalar := (my T $) work? ;-)
jnthn Probably
But then the errors will just talk about $ :)
pmichaud anyway, yes, I see how I can muck with the name. 15:38
jnthn r: my Int $ = 'lol'
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«Type check failed in assignment to '$'; expected 'Int' but got 'Str'␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/hOn51LTP6T:1␤␤»
pmichaud r: r: say (my Int $).VAR.name
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/QipTusEbYW:1␤»
pmichaud r: say (my Int $).VAR.name
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«$␤»
pmichaud neat. 15:39
jnthn We use that in things like
r: my $a; say +$a
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized variable $a of type Any in numeric context in block <anon> at /tmp/8FJ3jIdkbO:1␤␤0␤»
pmichaud yes; that's where the spurious container names come from :)
okay, thanks for all of the pointers. 15:40
jnthn *you, *are, *welcome :)
pmichaud I was working on some new List/Array code last night, then ran into spectest fails with typed arrays
and looked at the code and said "Huh? OMG"
jnthn ;)
jnthn shoulda taken the Pm List and Array tutorial *before* writing that code :) 15:41
pmichaud actually, it's not that bad, but TypeArray shouldn't be overloading at_pos/bind_pos whatever. Array should already know how to do that.
because arrays and lists are already typed
(it's that they default to Mu) 15:42
*TypedArray 15:43
anyway, I'm about to do some more semi-radical refactors of the List code :-/
jnthn
.oO( I hpoe the list of semi-radical refactors isn't infinite... )
 15:44
pmichaud so far the answer to that is "Mu"
jnthn :P
pmichaud but this next refactor should make things somewhat more efficient in memory and speed 15:46
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pmichaud it will also eliminate a few kludges 15:46
oh! 15:47
what's the best way to determine that an object is of an exact type?
in my case, I want to know that a given object is a List
(not a subclass of List)
jnthn r: say List.WHAT === Array.WHAT 15:48
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«False␤»
jnthn r: say List.WHAT === List.WHAT
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«True␤»
15:48 JimmyZ left
jnthn so, $obj.WHAT === List 15:48
pmichaud ... what if I want to do that from C? ;-)
jnthn STABLE(obj)->WHAT == LookupListHere 15:49
I think List is handy
pmichaud it's available where I need it, yes (the binder, or as an opcode)
jnthn Rakudo_types_list_get
pmichaud I'm going to put in an optimization for building Lists from existing Lists
but it only works if the thing you're building from *is* a *List* 15:50
jnthn Right. This'll get you an exact czech.
15:52 JimmyZ_ left
TimToady feebly attempts to backlog a week... 15:52
phenny TimToady: 02 Jul 16:46Z <bbkr> tell TimToady that / $. / regexp parsing using STD has some internal error "Use of uninitialized value $x in concatenation in line 66623" leaking and shown before "Unsupported use of $. variable" message (meant to be seen by user). RT 77550 shows that it did not happen in the past, so this is an regression in awesomness :)
TimToady but re irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2012-07-03#i_5781272 I'd say that 'use fatal' must be lexically scoped, not dynamically 15:53
'no fatal' is the default
jnthn TimToady: Lexically scoped, but somehow lifted by things like "open"? 15:54
TimToady either the caller or the callee has to figure it out; I'd tend to think the caller would have an easier time of it
so more of an implicit // die 15:55
though as originally conceived, looking up the call stack from the callee to see what the lexical settings of the caller are
but dynamic will just be a world of painful action at a distance 15:56
we can't have the caller setting policy for the callee's lexical scope like that
pmichaud so, basically CALLER::<$FATAL> or somesuch 15:57
I understand the point now, yes.
jnthn pmichaud: The current PAST formulation of exception handlers seems to tie them to blocks. So a block has a set of handlers. While that works out in a sense, I'm looking at the code in MapIter and thinking an nqp:: thing that set up handlers in a more fine-grained way would let us write code like that more easily. 15:59
Er, I mean, not in PIR :)
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pmichaud jnthn: I didn't like the "tied to blocks" formulation, fwiw. 16:00
jnthn pmichaud: OK, then that's both of us. :)
pmichaud to me, handlers should be tied to code.
thus the original version of PAST used a :pasttype<try> node for handlers
16:01 brrt left
pmichaud Tene++ tried refactoring the handlers to be a specialized node type.... but it never really worked out. 16:01
jnthn As a very first approximation, nqp::some-non-crap-name(code_to_protect(), CATCH => ..., LAST => ...)
That is, we use named parameters on the node to name the different types of handlers. 16:02
pmichaud as a first approximation, that works for me :)
jnthn Not sure how best to convey the current exception though. 16:03
Maybe some ops that only make sense in the context of a handling thing 16:04
pmichaud wfm
jnthn nqp::excpayload(), etc.
pmichaud well, at some level payload ought to be an attribute of an exception, retrievable with getattr
rather than a specialized op
getting the exception itself can be an op, certainly. 16:05
jnthn I'm not so sure. If we're talking about abstracting away the underlying VM...
The way we'll communicate exceptiony things will be probably quite different.
pmichaud ... the exception still probably wants to be 6model-y, I hope.
that said, I don't mind too much if we treat exception as a low-level thingy the same way we're doing list and hash 16:06
jnthn Well, the payload (as in, what's actually thrown) probably wants to be. (more)
pmichaud so in that context, nqp::excpayload would make sense to me.
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jnthn But looking at VMs out there, they have their own constraints on what the thing you *actually* throw is. 16:06
pmichaud I'd probably just use ::payload, though.
jnthn For example, Parrot wants it to be something of its Exception PMC type. The CLR wants it to be a subclass of Exception. etc. 16:07
pmichaud just like we have ::push and ::pop without having to explicitly say "listpush" and "listpop"
jnthn It's that low level "container" that I want to abstract away.
+1 to payload
pmichaud so yes, I'm fine with treating exceptions as low-level vm objects the same way we do lists and hashes
(with corresponding low-level ops) 16:08
jnthn OK
16:09 plobsing left
pmichaud Util: ping 16:10
jnthn pmichaud: Is nqp::handle(...) an OK name? I'm trying to think of something short but descriptive...I don't really like this one. 16:11
pmichaud jnthn: why not nqp::try ?
jnthn pmichaud: It carries the implication of Perl 6 "try", but actually may only be considering control exceptions
pmichaud: That's a weak objection though. 16:12
"try" is the Perl 6 keyword it's spiritually closest too :)
pmichaud doesn't a try block with a CONTROL { ... } phaser also handle control exceptions? ;-)
jnthn True ;)
OK, I go with nqp::try
pmichaud "try" makes the most sense to me.
with the understanding that nqp::try(protected, ...) that doesn't have a CATCH handler doesn't actually catch things. 16:13
I could go for nqp::handle, though.
nqp::handle reads pretty nicely, actually. 16:14
nqp::handle(code_to_protect, CATCH => dothis, CONTROL => dothat)
I think I prefer ::handle
jnthn :) 16:15
pmichaud I'm not worried about it being short; it shouldn't be all that common, and no matter how short the name is it'll be "long" because of the need to specify the handlers.
the implication of course is that nqp::handle(code) with no handlers specified ends up not catching anything. 16:16
unlike 'try' in Perl 6, which has a default handler.
pmichaud is a little afraid to touch the List code again :-/ 16:19
colomon you should be glad you're not programming in Lisp, *everything* is List code there. ;) 16:20
pmichaud colomon: believe me, I'm very glad of that. :)
TimToady pmichaud: where did your questions end up? I want to think about them while driving to SoCal today... 16:23
pmichaud TimToady: we put them into the github issue tracker 16:25
I'll get the links... one sec
(we can move them back to a file if that's generally more convenient for you.)
generically: github.com/perl6/specs/issues 16:26
specific tickets of interest (to me):
github.com/perl6/specs/issues/17
github.com/perl6/specs/issues/16
(that's it at the moment)
TimToady thanks
arnsholt jnthn: FYI, I derped on the include paths =)
pmichaud I'll have some list interpolation types of questions, but they're not ready yet. 16:27
arnsholt They were right there in plain sight
pmichaud for lists (to fix the gather/take interpolation bugs) I need to smash a few more atoms together before I can get to the theoretical questions for you :)
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pmichaud for list interpolation and other list issues, I'm planning to create a t/spec/S07-interpolation/mumble.t file where we memoralize the pieces that we know have to work a certain way 16:28
that way when we come up with a change that might break something, I'll have the list of counter-examples handy :) 16:29
(should've done that years ago.)
jnthn pmichaud++ # good idea :)
Dinner...should have a few QAST exception-y tuits afterwards :) 16:30
7
&
TimToady ooh, let's call it...Test Driven Deportment, or something like that
pmichaud 8
*
TimToady: yeah... I'm a little ashamed to have not thought of doing that before this last go-round. 16:31
jnthn
.oO( oh shift... )
pmichaud TimToady: btw, very glad to see you back. We missed you. :) 16:34
TimToady well, still gonna be offline a bunch this week, commuting to Irvine, Seattle, and Portland...
pmichaud ...aren't those kind of in opposite directions? ;-) 16:35
TimToady but should be better than last week; doing IT at a large quiz meet turns out to be more than a full-time job
but I did a lot of Perl 6 programming there, on the plus side :)
pmichaud TimToady: niecza? or rakudo? :-P (No, you don't have to answer that.) 16:36
pmichaud wonders if TimToady has a sekrit Perl 6 environment that none of us know about yet.
TimToady I generally try to make sure my programs run on both
PerlJam pmichaud: He may have used the TimToady implementation of Perl 6
:)
pmichaud TimToady: You're going to be driving almost the whole of I5... considered making it border-to-border? ;-) 16:37
TimToady there is no part of I5 I am not already too familiar with :) 16:38
pmichaud I've driven nearly all of I10 -- I'm just missing the part from Lake City FL to Jacksonville. 16:39
TimToady even spent part of my honeymoon parked on I5 due to a broken fuel pump
16:39 zhutingting left
TimToady about 12 miles north of Grants Pass 16:39
pmichaud anyway, safe travels 16:40
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arnsholt jnthn: Any tricks for inspecting the type signature of a P6 routine, or do I just have to do a lot of Parrot_pcc_invoke_*? 17:07
(Inspecting it from C, that is)
moritz arnsholt: I'm pretty sure the binder has more direct access 17:10
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moritz arnsholt: search for Rakudo_Parameter in src/binder/bind.* for example 17:12
and Rakudo_Signature 17:13
arnsholt But that's Rakudo. The dyncall code lives in NQP, unfortunately
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moritz does all of it have to stay there? 17:15
pmichaud how does the dyncall code get its signature information (in NQP) ? 17:17
moritz it doesn't need any, afaict 17:18
pmichaud I should probably ask a larger question -- like what's the overall goal of the question? (I'm late to the conversation, yes.)
moritz pmichaud: arnsholt tries to implement callbacks
pmichaud callbacks from C into rakudo subs?
moritz yes
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pmichaud why would one need to inspect the signature? 17:18
sorear good * #perl6
moritz intuitively I'd say that it's OK for those to have rakudo-specific parts 17:19
well, there are two possible approaches
one is to have a marshaller in p6 land that can be invoked with whatever C passes
and that one introspects the signature of the p6 routine and marshalls the argumts
or one can do that directly in C land 17:20
pmichaud I'm missing a piece, in "marshalling the arguments"
does the thing doing the callback know the types of arguments it's sending? 17:21
moritz what do you mean by "doing the callback"?
the C library that invokes the calback has its own expectation 17:22
like, (uint64, char*, double*)
and somehow that needs to get mapped to signature like (Int, Str, Array[Double]) or so
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moritz that is, the user probably write the p6 routine with a signature of (Int, Str, Array[Double]) 17:23
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pmichaud well, presumably an "is native" in there somewhere, too. 17:23
moritz or maybe s/Int/unit64/
presumably, yes
pmichaud in which case the "is native" handles the translation between the C call and what the sub expects, yes? 17:24
or... no, I see.
I'm thinking about it backwards.
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pmichaud conceptually, I'd expect Rakudo blocks to have some sort of "callback" method/operation that can inspect the sub and return a pointer to a C-callable-routine that will transform the incoming C args into the corresponding Rakudo types and then do the dispatch. 17:27
the C-callable-routine is then what gets passed to the library.
alternatively, a C-callable routine gets its arguments and passes them to the Rakudo code object and says "here, you figure them out and invoke them" :-). That's your first option, I guess. 17:30
(marshaller in p6 land)
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moritz though I guess some of the marshalling can't be easily done in p6 land either 17:31
"interpret that blob as a pointer to a double" isn't something that's safely done in p6
arnsholt Sorry I disappeared
jnthn back 17:32
pmichaud anyway, I understand the problem better now, thanks. I don't have an easy answer; but introspecting the signature from nqp feels wrongish to me.
arnsholt Yeah
pmichaud afk for a bit
jnthn oh, what are we on at the moment? :)
gfldex magic
arnsholt The existing code gets the type information from the Perl 6 code in Zavolaj
moritz introspecting from rakudo C land sounds much saner to me
jnthn: callbacks in zavolaj
arnsholt Yeah, that makes a lot of sense I think
moritz especially since NQP and Rakudo signatures aren't the same beasts at all 17:33
pmichaud also, nqp is intended to support languages other than Rakudo... so that calls for an API
arnsholt Quite
pmichaud afk for a bit 17:34
jnthn The nativecall "protocol" is just arrays, hashes and type objects :)
We build those based on the Perl 6 signature.
arnsholt jnthn: Basically, I need to get the argument and return types from a callback sub
From C
jnthn arnsholt: Ah, no, that's probably the wrong way to do it :) 17:35
arnsholt Right. Let's not do that then =) 17:36
jnthn Lemme check something in S06..
Yeah
There's this syntax:
arnsholt My basic idea was that a callback sub was just one whose argument and return types were compatible with the NativeCall types 17:37
jnthn sub (int $n, &callback:(Str, int, int --> int)) is native { * }
So, the way to do the marshalling of the callback's arguments lives in the signature of the native call declaration.
So
arnsholt Right! That makes a lot of sense 17:38
jnthn sub foo(&x:(int, int)) is native { * }
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jnthn Would mean a native call to "foo" that takes a callback, and when the callback is invoked we shoudl expect two ints. 17:38
arnsholt Yah 17:39
jnthn And the protocol I had in mind for specifying this info is even written out at the top of dyncall.ops :)
arnsholt Oh, right! =)
jnthn Since we already have logic for mapping things in a signature to array of hashes that it desires... 17:40
...then that part should (hopefully) just be a not-too-hard refactor away.
gfldex how would you handle c structs as parameters to c callbacks? 17:41
jnthn Anyway, it means that we give all of the info out in one go, rather than having calls back into Rakudo to introspect stuff.
gfldex: Same way we handle C structs as return values today, I should imagine.
arnsholt Yeah, that's a lot better
gfldex jnthn: that works already? 17:42
jnthn gfldex: It just boils down to having some class written with the "is repr('CStruct')" as the type.
arnsholt I'll probably have to fiddle a bit with param_hash_for
jnthn gfldex: Returning a struct? I believe so.
gfldex: github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/blob/mast...6-struct.t has tests for it.
gfldex nice 17:43
arnsholt It doesn't support sized ints yet, so it's a bit limited, but the basics are there 17:44
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jnthn Oh...one technicality. I'm not sure if we parse the &a:(...) syntax yet. 17:53
But can probably steal that from STD. Shouldn't be too bad.
arnsholt Heh, right 17:56
moritz r: sub f(&x(Int, Str --> Array)) { }
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: ( no output )
moritz we seem to parse it
r: sub f(&x(Int, Str --> Array)) { }; say &f.signatures.params[0].perl
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«No such method 'signatures' for invocant of type 'Sub'␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/xp1QEUbN5Y:1␤␤»
moritz r: sub f(&x(Int, Str --> Array)) { }; say &f.signature.params[0].perl 17:57
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«&x :(Int , Str )␤»
moritz woah
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arnsholt Looks like it works. Cool 17:57
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pmichaud jnthn: ping 17:57
jnthn You missed a colon. 17:58
pmichaud: pong
But I guess the above way works ;-)
pmichaud jnthn: is there a (easy) way in the bootstrap code for class List to make sure that every created List has its $!items initialized to an empty RPA ?
jnthn It's parsed differently though.
pmichaud (no is an acceptable answer; I'm just getting tired of constantly checking+initializing $!items in every List method.) 17:59
jnthn pmichaud: Thinking.
pmichaud: I suspect the answer is "no".
pmichaud okay. 18:00
jnthn At least, I can't think of a way off hand.
pmichaud I can probably do it in nqp::p6list (which uses the binder function to create lists)... but when I tried it last night there were still some Lists that ended up with uninitialized $!items
so, some Lists are still being created via nqp::create()
(which is somewhat expected.)
jnthn Well, and then there's the Array case :) 18:01
pmichaud ...array case?
jnthn my @a;
pmichaud oh, that's probably the one that is doing it, yes :)
jnthn Yeah. That one works interestingly :)
(It clones whatever is in the static lexpad)
pmichaud yeah.......
and probably wouldn't (shouldn't) be a deep clone. 18:02
jnthn So if you initialize that one to have a $!items it'll be shared
Right, it's shallow.
pmichaud okay.
jnthn I once pondered teaching P6opaque to be more configurable on that.
pmichaud I *might* make an opcode to do it then.
jnthn But we got by just fine so far.
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pmichaud actually, having an opcode do it would simplify a lot of things. 18:03
in Array too.
I'm not sure that's a pattern I'd want to see replicated throughout much of the codebase... but for List it might be worthy enough to do. We already have some list-specific opcodes. 18:04
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pmichaud I could do it as a C opcode for now; but it could easily also be managed as a nqp::-pseudoop 18:05
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jnthn Well, everything should be an nqp:: thing these days. 18:05
Then it can be replaced in whatever way.
pmichaud it'd be a nqp:: pseudoop that builds a tree 18:06
and I'm not sure we can easily parameterize those yet.
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moritz r: sub f(&x:(Int, Str --> Array)) { }; say &f.signature.params[0].perl 18:07
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤invoke() not implemented in class 'Capture'␤»
pmichaud I'll do it as a C op to begin with (with a nqp:: alias in the code). I'm most comfortable with knowing that will work properly. We can generalize a bit later.
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pmichaud and right now I have too many other variables that can cause thing to break so I'm wanting to keep the number small-ish :) 18:08
*things
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pmichaud Mucking with the list code is always tricky. Of the various experiments I've tried in my branch, about 80% of them cause non-trivial fails :) 18:09
afk # airport pickup, lunch 18:22
arnsholt jnthn: Current plans for implementing the callbacks
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dalek c: 337a4af | moritz++ | lib/glossary.pod:
[glossary] explain "invocant"
 18:23
diakopter moritz: s/that/on which/
moritz diakopter: takk 18:24
dalek c: fde229c | moritz++ | lib/glossary.pod:
[gloassary] grammar fix by diakopter++
 18:25
arnsholt Or "called on"
diakopter no..
arnsholt I quite like dangling prepositions
diakopter moritz: oh, I see what you were saying. now that you did the 'on which', you have to remove one of the 'is called' :) 18:26
er
NO
sorry I'm wrong
it just looked funny for a second
my reading of what arnsholt said confused me :D 18:27
moritz diakopter: you're welcome to rephrase if you have a better idea :-)
and a commit bit (hint hint :-)
dalek p/toqast: d11e353 | jnthn++ | src/QAST/Var.nqp:
Add QAST::Var.default (not needed for Rakudo, but it's part of what replaces viviself, and NQP will need it).
 18:28
moritz is the plan to migrate nqp to QAST too? 18:29
jnthn moritz: Yeah, but I'll not work on it until I've done Rakudo
moritz: It's just that viviself is gone in QAST, and the above is one place we used it, so I'm just stubbing in the replacement while I think of it :) 18:30
Plus it's LHF for any would be QAST::Compiler hacker :) 18:31
diakopter arnsholt: (I see what you were saying now)
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dalek c: f10aa0d | moritz++ | lib/Complex.pod:
start to document Complex
 18:38
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arnsholt diakopter: Yours is fine as well. Dangling prepositions are largely a question of style, I think 18:42
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diakopter the dangling preposition, though "wronger", is probably clearer in this case because of the repeated "is called" 18:43
but I don't have a good idea to reword it to get rid of the repeated "is called" and make it flow nicely 18:44
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[Coke] (wait, TimToady is gone a week, and has only a SINGLE message from phenny? hurm...) 18:46
diakopter folks trust him to backlog so they don't always use phenny 18:49
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moritz and we've turned some questions into GH issues too 18:54
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masak good evening, #perl6 18:56
jnthn masak! \o/
moritz \o masak
masak \o/ 18:57
sorear MASAKK! 18:58
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masak happiness all around. 19:13
sjohnson could use some of dat
moritz hugs sjohnson
sjohnson :3
moritz hugme: hug everybody
hugme hugs everybody
masak hugs sjohnson too 19:14
sjohnson （　° ー°）
i feel better already !
sorear hugs sjohnson 19:16
sjohnson gives back a big #perl6 group hug
colomon hugs! 19:18
sjohnson someday #perl6 might turn into #hugs :) 19:20
sorear hugs colomon 19:21
lichtkind mass hugging 19:22
oh man im away :)
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sjohnson hugs are contageous 19:22
masak wow, there actually is a channel #hugs on freenode. 19:24
and I'm the 10th nick in there.
lichtkind masak: im more like gagamel 19:27
diakopter masak: maybe hugs refers to the haskell thing? 19:29
lichtkind diakopter: i hope so
moritz lichtkind: there's nothing wrong with hugging :-) 19:31
lichtkind moritz: ich war immer schon mit gagamel, hab die schlümpfe gehasst, 19:32
also mach dich wenn ich vorbeikomm auf das schlimmste gefasst
masak sjohnson: "We need 4 hugs a day for survival. We need 8 hugs a day for maintenance. We need 12 hugs a day for growth." -- Virginia Satir 19:37
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lichtkind masak: that statement is no surprise for someone naming itself satyr 19:38
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sjohnson masak: wise quote 19:39
masak lichtkind: wow, I never made that connection, even though I've known the name for years. 19:40
lichtkind masak: rumor has it perl atracts language affine people 19:42
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masak lichtkind: aye. 19:44
masak .oO( what's affine language like you're doing in a place like this? )
s/you're/you/ 19:45
sjohnson it also attracts hug enthusiasts :) 19:53
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dalek c: e8502de | moritz++ | lib/Complex.pod:
[Complex] add polar; fix "returns" traits
 19:57
colomon just had an out-of-control piece of $work code eat 4+ gigs of real memory... 19:59
sorear ulimit -v is your friend 20:00
colomon is there a Windows equivalent? That's where my real problem lies, I managed to get the process under control on the Mac pretty easily. My PC is still going off the rails, though... 20:04
masak sjn: hm. I kinda like the name Adventure::World. I'll think a bit about it.
moritz colomon: I don't know, but maybe there's a setting in the process manager (ctrl+alt+del) to limit it? 20:06
stackoverflow.com/questions/192876/...mory-limit 20:07
masak moritz: [backlog] I also constantly mistake "visitor pattern" for "tree fold". I think it severely hinders my grokking of it. (along with "so you're saying the language doesn't do that kind of method dispatch? wha'..."_ 20:08
)
moritz oh, that reminds me. I wanted to write that visitor :-) 20:09
masak mathw: [backlog] check your nearest CPAN. M is there. 20:10
also, I used to see a use for Mouse, but I don't any more. I'd consider Moo in all of the cases I would have considered Mouse before. 20:11
Moo seems to do what Mouse intended, but better in all ways. (goas all the way with "no MOP", is *perfectly* compatible/substitutable with Moose)
sorear why do people keep making new perl 5 object systems? 20:12
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masak sorear: the post-Moose landscape does look difference, in people's defence. 20:13
moritz because there isn't one good in core
masak sorear: Moose has a prohibitive startup cost in some domains.
hoelzro++ # hoelz.ro/blog/another-look-at-perl-6 20:15
hoelzro|away: what's wrong with $*OUT? ;)
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masak oh wow. github.com/stevan/p5-mop/blob/mast...-example.t 20:19
that's awesome.
sorear aye
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sorear o/ seldon, o/ dukeleto 20:32
seldon \o sorear
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moritz gist.github.com/3086115 # my mostly general tree folder 20:41
masak moritz: nice. 20:43
moritz: I'm looking at $root and &children, and thinking "refactor parameters into parameter object", though. :) and call it Node. :) 20:44
not saying it's necessarily a better factoring. just that that's my first reaction.
masak .oO( refaction )
moritz masak: erm, I can't quite imagine how that would look like 20:45
masak ok.
moritz masak: got a short example for me? 20:46
masak the &children routine being passed in is just a mapping from parents to children, no? that's why you can keep passing it down.
moritz right
masak my proposal is just to ditch that routine and encode the same mapping in an object structure. class Node { has Node @.children } 20:47
moritz same for &pre, &post and &assemble actually
masak nothing more.
well, all those are more obviously part of the *algorithm*.
&children is more obviously part of the data structure.
moritz masak: but when I have somethiing like a Pod tree, I'd have to recursively walk the whole structure to bring it into the form of Node objects 20:48
before passing it to &visit, which recursively walks the whole structure
masak I see what you mean. 20:49
moritz that's the point of having it a callback: it makes it usable on structures that don't already fit the pattern exactly
masak it would be nice if there were "interface adapters" -- things that say "I know you need this, but adapt those things over there on a by-need basis".
moritz $root could be an integer, and &children returns two divisors
masak moritz: yeah, I see your use case now. that's pretty neat. 20:50
interface adapters would do the same but with OO, though.
I wonder if anyone has ever done something like that in a language.
moritz I bet lisp has :-)
masak heh :)
20:51 MayDaniel left
moritz well 20:51
in this case, I could simply add a parameter :$children-method-name 20:52
and then do @children = $root."$children-method-name"().map: ... ;
that would be kind of poor man's interface adapter 20:53
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masak yeahbut. yeech. :) 20:54
now you've soiled your routine with adapter details.
the thing with interface adapter would be that you can keep referring to the "nice" interface inside the routine. and handle all the ugly mapping in the interface adapter scope.
moritz: "If an named argument was passed for C<assemble>...", but the code contains no conditional. 20:56
also, s/an/a/ in there.
moritz well, the "otherwise" case is handled through the default
which just returns Nil
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masak oh, true. 20:58
PerlJam that "interface adaptor" sounds interesting, but only if it got out of the way.
masak PerlJam: yeah. I'm a bit fuzzy on how to actually hook it up when invoking the routine. 20:59
moritz -> sleep
PerlJam masak: it seems kind of waterbedy to me right now. Like you're just moving the essential complexity
21:00 bruges left
masak sleep well, moritz. dream of turtle-like callables all the way down. 21:00
PerlJam: I will think about it some more. you may be right.
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sjn masak: about naming... I'm kinda keeping the "tell a story with code" idea in mind when coming with that suggestion 21:18
not sure how feasible it all is, but given that you're kinda creating a story to begin with, I think it would be nice to see if that idea is doable 21:19
masak sjn: if I haven't licensed the code already, consider MIT license to apply. you're free to take story and/or code and do nice things with it according to your wishes. 21:21
sjn no worries :)
just throwing some crazy ideas out there 21:22
masak well, I still think your "tell a story with code" idea is interesting. I'd like to see you produce a full-fledged example of it. 21:23
no-one else is gonna do it for you :)
lol I blogged! \o/ strangelyconsistent.org/blog/july-1...-be-opened 21:26
jnthn read it as "can beer opened" :P 21:27
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felher masak++ :) 21:35
21:35 muixirt joined
felher But that was quite a short one... can i get one of the two '+' back? 21:36
felher is just teasing :)
seldon masak+=0.5? 21:38
lue good post masak++
felher seldon: yeah, something like that :) 21:39
masak felher: sorry, '++' is an atomic operation. ;)
lue wonders if +=0.5 actually worked 21:40
felher masak: ... good point :)
seldon Does ++masak work?
Because I feel much more at home with preincrement, coming from ++C.
21:40 jaldhar left
masak in here, that means "you've promised to do something, there's actual karma in it for you if you do" 21:41
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seldon Also, what does "work" mean? Does a bot keep score or something? 21:41
felher aloha: karma masak 21:42
aloha felher: masak has karma of 750.
gfldex karma masak
aloha masak has karma of 750.
gfldex masak+=0.5
karma masak
aloha masak has karma of 750.
seldon Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos. 21:45
aloha can only be portioned out by the cosmos. has karma of 0.
seldon That bot is a bit on the cheeky side, isn't it? 21:46
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jnthn karma bots that don't know when to shut up 21:48
aloha bots that don't know when to shut up has karma of 0.
jnthn As they should! :P
seldon karma i can
aloha i can has karma of 0.
jnthn *lol*
masak :P 21:49
seldon Hmm... 21:50
karma++ 21:51
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pmichaud reads 22:02
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sergot good night ! o/ 22:16
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masak dobranoc, sergocie. 22:17
lichtkind i noe see larry stole Q from ruby 22:19
thats hdeous
lue now hates wordpress (just lost a big post I finished writing because I tried adding a link in fullscreen mode) >:( 22:22
masak lichtkind: isn't it %Q in Ruby, though? 22:27
also, does Ruby really use the Q form in order to adverb the Q? 22:28
pmichaud I think Q{} actually came from p5's q{}
lichtkind pmichaud: yes but i was looking for a pun too, and it was just surprising to find it there 22:29
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masak good night, #perl6 22:30
mhasch good night, masak 22:31
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lichtkind good night fellas 22:42
o/
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majrmovies Hi Perl6ers .. 22:49
If this is the output of the "perl6 -v" command
This is perl6 version 2012.06 built on parrot 4.5.0 revision 0
How would I require that version in a module?
Because "use Perl:<6.2012.06>;" doesn't work. ;-(
pmichaud I think version requirment in modules is not yet implemented (NYI) 22:50
at any rate, it'd be a Rakudo version, not a Perl version.
majrmovies Ahh... I see.
Thank you Mr. Michaud. 22:51
flussence you'd write "use v6;"
pmichaud if nobody else is able to give you a better answer here -- feel free to file a bug report (rakudobug@perl.org) with the question, or ask on perl6-users mailing list.
jnthn 'night, #perl6
dalek p/toqast: b6e9580 | jnthn++ | src/QAST/Operations.nqp:
Start sketching out various exception related operations.
pmichaud I'm not even certain that compiler-requirement versions are spec'd. 22:52
jnthn: later!
jnthn pmichaud: Didn't get as far as hoped with exception impl today, brain too fuzzy... Maybe tomorrow evenin'.
o/
pmichaud jnthn: all progress is good, though.
majrmovies flussence: but there is a fix in rakudo 2012.06 that is required for this to run ... it will fail in 2012.05 or prior
pmichaud I'm not as far along as I'd hoped with lists
diakopter is not as far along with qast stuff as I hoped 22:53
flussence write code to spec, not to browsers^Wperl6s 22:54
pmichaud someone still might want to provide a useful warning about compiler version.
in fact, we put a version number into one of the dynvars for this... just a sec
(looking)
r: say $*PERL<compiler><ver> 22:56
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«2012.06-77-gd8e7b66␤» 22:57
pmichaud r: say $*PERL<compiler>release-number>
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/0Oek9TcNct:1␤»
pmichaud r: say $*PERL<compiler><release-number>
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«␤»
pmichaud r: say %*PERL<compiler>.perl 22:58
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«Failure.new(exception => X::AdHoc.new(payload => "postcircumfix:<\{ }> not defined for type Failure"))␤»
pmichaud r: say %*PERL<compiler>;
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«postcircumfix:<{ }> not defined for type Failure␤ in method gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:9533␤ in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:6975␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/cC0z7zCpIk:1␤␤»
pmichaud r: say $*PERL<compiler>;
p6eval rakudo d8e7b6: OUTPUT«("name" => "rakudo", "ver" => "2012.06-77-gd8e7b66", "release-number" => "", "build-date" => "2012-07-09T09:09:42Z", "codename" => "").hash␤»
pmichaud hrm.
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majrmovies Well $*Perl<compiler><ver> would work for my purposes 22:59
err $*PERL<compiler><ver>
pmichaud majrmovies: yes. Just make sure the $*PERL<compiler><ver> gt '2012.06'
er, ge '2012.06'
we should probably provide a proper Version value, too. 23:00
I'm not sure what happened to release-number and codename, though. 23:01
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pmichaud majrmovies: anyway, I hope this is good enough for now. I think the spec needs a little more clarification on specifying minimum requirements :-) 23:02
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majrmovies Thanks for your help! 23:04
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Coleoid Hi, #perl6... 23:59
I'm trying to get my
Windows Rakudo build going...

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