»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by moritz on 3 May 2013.
00:12 kurahaupo left 00:13 btyler joined 00:14 ccc joined 00:17 rindolf left, Chillance left 00:19 kurahaupo joined 00:23 nwc10 left 00:26 arlinius left 00:29 ajr joined 00:30 ajr is now known as Guest87677, xinming left 00:31 adu joined 00:32 xinming joined 00:33 berekuk left 00:34 nwc10 joined 00:36 Guest87677 left 00:38 skids left 00:39 ajr_ joined 00:42 ajr_ left 00:46 Timbus|Away joined, Timbus left, Timbus|Away is now known as Timbus 00:53 chrisdev_ left 00:54 lustlife joined 00:55 chrisdev joined, chrisdev left 01:00 skids joined 01:02 japhb_ left 01:08 anuby joined 01:13 arlinius joined 01:20 btyler left 01:24 btyler joined 01:41 tgt left 01:52 FROGGS_ joined
ehouse anyone around who could help me with my panda setup? 01:56
01:57 FROGGS left
ehouse I tried a setup with a local install of perl6 and still no luck. Still having issues with the .work file 02:02
02:04 gdey left
timotimo ehouse: how did you install perl6 system-wide? just set the prefix to / when configuring? 02:04
ehouse timotimo: I meant to say it was install as a package instead of compiling in my homedir 02:05
timotimo oh, a package?
how recent was that package?
ehouse perl6 version 2013.01 built on parrot 5.0.0 revision 0 02:06
panda I pulled from github on both installs 02:07
timotimo ah, that's kind-of-sort-of recent
especially considering there were 2 months without releases i believe
ehouse I also tried perl6 version 2013.04-74-g14e7d74 built on parrot 5.2.0 revision RELEASE_5_2_0. Same error from panda 02:08
timotimo it seems like panda uses a temporary directory to do all its things before installing
at what step does it fail?
oh, i'm locally on the panda2 branch 02:09
02:09 tgt joined
timotimo ah, that's what .work is! 02:10
the sub tmpdir is implemented thusly: ".work/{time}_{$i++}"
it would seem like it tries to do its work under the CWD
ehouse pastebin.com/v96rQ4cm 02:11
timotimo ah, looked wrong.
ah, yes 02:12
it seems like that rm_rf is not proper.
it will try to rm_rf .work in any case, even if it did nothing to provoke creation of such a folder (like display the usage or search for projects) 02:13
02:13 prevost left
timotimo ehouse: did you try actually installing something? 02:14
i can reproduce the error, btw 02:15
ehouse wow I feel like a derp
well I can install packages fine. --list just doesn't work 02:16
timotimo hehehe :)
i'll look into fixing that problem 02:17
probably will just have to check .work for existance before rm_rf-ing it
ehouse should I submit a bug report on the github page?
also should't rm -f swallow errors?
timotimo i suppose it depends on what it tries to mimic 02:18
oh, *weird* 02:19
github.com/tadzik/perl6-File-Tools...and.pm#L27 - it actually should only delete if the directory exists
02:19 yoleaux left 02:20 yoleaux joined
timotimo oh, no 02:20
it checks for directory-ness. if it's not a directory (i.e. if it doesn't exist) it just tries to unlink
02:22 btyler left
timotimo i made a pull request :) 02:22
ehouse thanks timotimo 02:23
timotimo you're welcome
are you new to perl6? 02:24
02:24 chrisdev joined
ehouse yeah 02:25
timotimo welcome to perl6 then :)
02:26 prevost joined
ingy does p6rules allow (| a | b) to mean (a | b) ? 02:26
TimToady yes
timotimo same with ||, too i believe
ingy cool, just added to Pegex. don't want to move away from p6rules :) 02:27
02:27 tgt left
ingy TimToady: headed to austin? 02:29
TimToady planning to
ingy great!
02:29 hlin_ left
ingy will be good to see you 02:29
02:33 hypolin joined 02:38 chrisdev left 02:45 ifim joined 03:01 btyler joined 03:20 perigrin_ joined 03:25 jlaire left 03:37 daniel-s_ joined 03:40 daniel-s left 03:42 jlaire joined, btyler left
dalek ast: 3fe5dba | (Brent Laabs)++ | / (3 files):
moved slurp.t to S32-io, more tests, remove request from TODO
 03:46
03:48 SamuraiJack joined 03:58 preflex left 04:00 preflex joined 04:06 SamuraiJack left 04:08 Timbus left, Timbus joined 04:09 ccc left 04:25 Psyche^ joined 04:29 Patterner left, Psyche^ is now known as Patterner 04:34 ingy left, ingy joined 04:36 adu left 04:37 adu joined 04:49 gdey joined 04:53 zby_home_ joined 04:54 dayangkun joined, dayangkun left 05:11 ifim left 05:15 xinming left 05:16 xinming joined 05:17 ifim joined, ifim left 05:22 kurahaupo left 05:23 GlitchMr left, bruges_ joined 05:24 bruges left 05:25 GlitchMr joined, adu left
ingy what is the compilation unit form of perl6? 05:26
is there a standard one? 05:27
the bytecode, as it were…
05:27 nyuszika7h left
ingy pir for rakudo? 05:28
05:29 nyuszika7h joined 05:32 kurahaupo joined 05:39 domidumont joined 05:43 dmol joined, GlitchMr left 05:47 Heather joined
Heather tadzik hi 05:47
tadzik I saw some strange stuff in last commits 05:48
05:48 GlitchMr joined
Heather ah... it's panda 2... 05:56
05:57 kurahaupo left 05:58 kurahaupo joined 05:59 domidumont left
Heather I don't understand the code again 05:59
06:00 domidumont joined
timotimo in S06 it says my |retcap := MULTI-DISPATCH-CALLWITH(&?ROUTINE, cap); - i think it should be my $retcap := ... and then return |$retcap instead 06:01
06:01 PacoAir joined 06:02 FROGGS_ left 06:12 FROGGS_ joined 06:16 gdey left
timotimo moritz: it seems like your irclog website is forbidding access to the actual logs :( 06:17
but the little activity charts look nice :)
FROGGS_ ingy: rakudo compiles down to bpc, and parrot to pir
timotimo: you say yuo cant see today's log? 06:18
timotimo wow, that was quickly fixed!
oooh, it colors days according to the amount of conversation in the calendar overview
FROGGS_ I believe he said he has an access violation rule which hits when you access the site more than 50 times a minute
TimToady a $ would imply itemization that you don't want to do to a capture, whereas binding to |capture doesn't assume itemization 06:19
and, of course, rakudo only uses pbc/pir on parrot, not on jvm 06:20
FROGGS_ of course
TimToady it might be more accurate to say that it saves a serialization of its state after compiling a module
FROGGS_ good morning btw 06:21
06:21 FROGGS_ is now known as FROGGS 06:22 dmol left
FROGGS r: say (my $x).^attributes; say (my $y).^methods 06:25
camelia rakudo 14e7d7: OUTPUT«␤eager elems end classify uniq infinite flat hash list lol pick roll reverse sort values keys kv pairs Array grep first join map min max minmax push tree unshift postcircumfix:<[ ]> at_pos all any one none postcircumfix:<{ }> at_key reduce FLATTENABLE_LIST FLATTENA…
FROGGS is there a way to get the variable name?
timotimo r: my |foobar := (1, 2, :a(foo)); # TimToady 06:30
camelia rakudo 14e7d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed my␤at /tmp/3EoXE3NMeO:1␤------> my ⏏|foobar := (1, 2, :a(foo)); # TimToady␤ expecting any of:␤ scoped declarator␤»
timotimo did you perhaps mean \foobar instead?
TimToady std: my |foobar := (1, 2, :a(foo)); 06:31
camelia std 8850393: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed my at /tmp/TUQhKCFRw6 line 1:␤------> my ⏏|foobar := (1, 2, :a(foo));␤ expecting any of:␤ name␤ scoped declarator␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 41m␤»
TimToady std: my (|foobar) := (1, 2, :a(foo));
camelia std 8850393: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'foo' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:00 46m␤»
TimToady std: my (|foobar) := (1, 2, :a<foo>); 06:32
timotimo oh?
camelia std 8850393: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 46m␤»
TimToady std: my (\foobar) := (1, 2, :a<foo>);
camelia std 8850393: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 46m␤»
timotimo r: my (|foobar) := (1, 2, :a<foo>);
camelia rakudo 14e7d7: ( no output )
timotimo i can't tell why it would need that.
TimToady \foobar only takes the first argument, while |foobar takes a snapshot of the current entire capture being boudn
might make no difference in that case 06:33
timotimo i mean the (...) around it
06:33 Heather left
TimToady |foobar is kind of a signature-level concept, not a parameter-level concept 06:33
FROGGS r: say (my (|foobar)).WHAT 06:34
camelia rakudo 14e7d7: OUTPUT«(Parcel)␤»
TimToady it might require ::= instead of := to work right, as well
06:34 zby_home_ left
TimToady maybe not 06:35
r: my \foo = (1, 2, :a<foo>); say foo.WHAT 06:38
camelia rakudo 14e7d7: OUTPUT«(Parcel)␤»
TimToady I suspect that's roughly equivalent
timotimo should i change the spec document then? turn it into a \ or put (...) around it? 06:39
TimToady r: my (|foo) ::= (1, 2, :a<foo>); say foo.WHAT
camelia rakudo 14e7d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Error while compiling block (source text: "my (|foo) ::= (1, 2, :a<foo>); say foo.WHAT"): Error while compiling op call: Error while compiling block : Error while compiling op call (source text: "say foo.WHAT"): Error while compiling op what (source t…
TimToady wow
timotimo yeeks 06:40
TimToady these days my \foo = is probably good enough to avoid spoiling a return value
06:41 GlitchMr left
TimToady sub foo { my \retval = (1, 2, :a<foo>); return retval }; say foo.item; say foo.list; say foo.hash 06:43
timotimo but the return stays return |retcap, right?
TimToady nr: sub foo { my \retval = (1, 2, :a<foo>); return retval }; say foo.item; say foo.list; say foo.hash
camelia niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«1 2 "a" => "foo"␤1 2 "a" => "foo"␤{"1" => 2, "a" => "foo"}␤»
..rakudo 14e7d7: OUTPUT«1 2 "a" => "foo"␤1 2 a foo␤("1" => 2, "a" => "foo").hash␤»
timotimo ah, i'll remove the | then. 06:44
TimToady nr: sub foo { my \retval = (1, 2, :a<foo>); return |retval }; say foo.item; say foo.list; say foo.hash
camelia niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«1 2 "a" => "foo"␤1 2 "a" => "foo"␤{"1" => 2, "a" => "foo"}␤»
..rakudo 14e7d7: OUTPUT«1 2 "a" => "foo"␤1 2 a foo␤("1" => 2, "a" => "foo").hash␤»
timotimo uh, are both equally correct?
06:44 GlitchMr joined
TimToady it would appear that return doesn't turn the pair into a named argument anway 06:45
*anyway
06:45 domidumont left, domidumont joined
TimToady nr: sub foo { my \retval = (1, 2, :a<foo>); return retval }; say (\foo).WHAT 06:45
camelia rakudo 14e7d7, niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«(Capture)␤»
TimToady nr: sub foo { my \retval = (1, 2, :a<foo>); return retval }; say (\foo).list 06:46
camelia niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«1 2 "a" => "foo"␤»
..rakudo 14e7d7: OUTPUT«1 2 a foo␤»
TimToady nr: sub foo { my \retval = (1, 2, :a<foo>); return |retval }; say (\foo).list
camelia niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«1 2 "a" => "foo"␤»
..rakudo 14e7d7: OUTPUT«1 2 a foo␤»
timotimo does it make a difference that the example in the specs uses :=? probably not, since it calls a function on the right side of that, right?
TimToady using \ on the left more or less forces binding anyway, since there's no container in the traditional sense 06:47
nr: sub foo { my \retval = (1, 2, :a<foo>); return retval }; say (\|foo).list 06:48
camelia niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«1 2 "a" => "foo"␤»
..rakudo 14e7d7: OUTPUT«1 2 a foo␤»
06:48 woosley joined
timotimo i can't see a difference between return |retval and return retval; i suppose i'll turn the line into my \retval = ...; and return retval, if that seems right to you 06:48
06:48 kurahaupo left
TimToady I think that's probably okay till someone finds a problem with it :) 06:49
and it's the simplest thing that (probably) works
dalek ecs: b9679d4 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | S06-routines.pod:
make a proto example work again.
 06:50
06:51 kurahaupo joined, GlitchMr left
timotimo FROGGS: access violation rule which hits when you access the site more than 50 times a minute - guess how many little pictures there are in the list of channels? :D 06:51
moritz: ^ 06:53
moritz how many? :/
timotimo 51
moritz :(
I really have to exclude them from the access limit
timotimo btw, do those graphs have the same scaling factor? 06:54
moritz only on the x axis
06:54 GlitchMr joined
moritz timotimo: please try again 06:54
access limit changed to 100 requests per 40 seconds
timotimo indeed, now i full-refreshed the page twice and still got almost all the little pictures :) 06:55
06:58 kaleem joined 06:59 GlitchMr left
FROGGS (little pictures)++ 07:00
TimToady wanders off to watch the little pictures inside his eyelids 07:02
moritz good night, and dream in little pictures :-) 07:03
dagurval r: spurt("/tmp/asdf", "hello"); slurp("/tmp/asdf").say;
camelia rakudo 14e7d7: OUTPUT«hello␤»
timotimo ... spurt? 07:04
wow.
well, i guess it isn't much funnier than slurp is ... 07:05
dagurval hehe
07:05 ilbot6 joined
timotimo moritz: ooc, how often do the little pictures regenerate? 07:06
07:06 markov left
moritz timotimo: currently once per week 07:06
timotimo oh, how long is one pixel in the x coordinate then? 07:07
FROGGS .about
-.-
07:08 ilbot6 left
FROGGS .oO( about 1/10th a millimetre? ) 07:08
I'm too tired to type :/
moritz r: say (Date.today - Date.new(2005, 2, 26)) / 100 07:09
camelia rakudo 14e7d7: OUTPUT«30.06␤»
moritz timotimo: about a month
timotimo oh, wow. okay.
fwiw, i could get the size of the first picture down by 60% just by calling optinpg -o7 on it and it took very little cpu time 07:10
if you do that once per week, it may even pay off :)
07:10 GlitchMr joined 07:11 markov joined
moritz I guess since it uses only one color, an optimizer can introduce a palette 07:12
timotimo actually
it seems like it was a palette before and the optimizer turned into greyscale
interesting. i got a "all of these signatures match" from .gist-ing a Pod::Block; i think adding a proto to Pod::Block::Declarator would fix that issue. 07:13
er 07:14
FROGGS r: sub do_warn ($x) is hidden_from_backtrace { warn "uninitialized" if $x ~~ Any }; do_warn(my $y)
camelia rakudo 14e7d7: OUTPUT«uninitialized in block at /tmp/ynPhrL6O0i:1␤␤»
timotimo hold on, why is the signature for Pod::Block::Declarator like this: multi method gist(Pod::Block:D) ... and not Pod::Block::Declarator:D?
FROGGS how do I put the '$y' in that warning message?
timotimo (another : at the end, though)
jnthn That sounds...wrong.
moritz timotimo: thinko, probably 07:15
07:15 sqirrel joined, GlitchMr left
timotimo i don't feel like making a pull request. would someone do the honors? 07:15
moritz FROGGS: you don't
jnthn FROGGS: sub do_warm(\x) { x.VAR.name } # should get the name
moritz warm? :-)
FROGGS r: sub do_warn (\x) is hidden_from_backtrace { warn "uninitialized " ~ x.VAR.name if $x ~~ Any }; do_warn(my $y)
camelia rakudo 14e7d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable '$x' is not declared␤at /tmp/X0xBLotdTb:1␤------> warn "uninitialized " ~ x.VAR.name if $x⏏ ~~ Any }; do_warn(my $y)␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤»
jnthn keys right next to each other...not enough coffee :P
FROGGS r: sub do_warn (\x) is hidden_from_backtrace { warn "uninitialized " ~ x.VAR.name if x ~~ Any }; do_warn(my $y)
camelia rakudo 14e7d7: OUTPUT«uninitialized $y in block at /tmp/0yewYQpPbl:1␤␤» 07:16
FROGGS cool
moritz: why not?
moritz we had such code in the setting; it was a constant PITA, because it kept reporting the wrong variable names
jnthn arrived to teach today and was told "oh, we can't have the room for another half an hour" :)
moritz like, variable names from within the setting
jnthn So, more time to wake up...
FROGGS moritz: hmmm, I want to fake p5's messages, so I'll give it a try 07:17
jnthn Just use \x all over your Perl 5 built-ins :)
FROGGS hmmm, sounds good 07:18
07:18 GlitchMr joined 07:20 fgomez left
dalek kudo/nom: 24538fd | (Brent Laabs)++ | t/spectest.data:
update spectest.data to reflect slurp.t file move
 07:20
kudo/nom: c52f15f | moritz++ | src/RESTRICTED.setting:
diasllow spurt in restricted setting, dagurval++
 07:22
kudo/nom: ad0c3f0 | moritz++ | src/core/Pod.pm:
fix typo in Pod::Block::Declarator.gist signature, timotimo++
07:22 kurahaupo left 07:23 GlitchMr left
timotimo thanks moritz :) 07:24
07:27 berekuk joined
timotimo does it seem like a good idea to you to sprinkle the setting with Pod, so that .WHY works on mostly anything in the interpreter? 07:28
labster r: say "/tmp/test3.pl".path.e; link("test3.pl", "/tmp/test3.pl"); say "/tmp/test3.pl".path.e; 07:29
camelia rakudo 14e7d7: OUTPUT«False␤True␤»
07:29 berekuk left
lizmat timotimo: sounds like a good idea to me 07:30
and good morning #perl6!
timotimo because i've always enjoyed being able to .__doc__ or help(...) stuff in the python repl and it's kind of sad that it's not done the same way in perl6 yet
on that same note, how about including a semi-interactive help browser for the repl? 07:31
pythons help() function is basically an object-or-module pretty-printer with a pager
labster sounds great timotimo! get tuit! 07:32
07:32 berekuk joined
moritz timotimo: no, iirc the plan was to not have pod inside the setting 07:32
timotimo: because of bootstrapping issues, and because we want to share documentation with other implementations 07:33
jnthn I'm not sure if we can put Pod in CORE.setting due to bootstrap things. Also it'd make the parse time longer ;)
moritz and longer compile times, yes
FROGGS r: class A { method gist(A:U:) { say self.VAR.name } }; say my A $a # how to get the varname of self?
camelia rakudo 14e7d7: OUTPUT«No such method 'name' for invocant of type 'A'␤ in method gist at /tmp/rSnsgIUVvW:1␤ in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:10935␤ in block at /tmp/rSnsgIUVvW:1␤␤»
timotimo yes, the parse time is already woefully long, i fear
jnthn We could, however, load a module that mixes docs in to all the CORE setting things.
moritz I think the "master plan" was to have some kind of include mechanism for POD
timotimo there's external docs, right?
labster that loads automatically in the REPL?
FROGGS use Selfexplanatory; 07:34
jnthn Well, the parse time is under half of what it is on Parrot on the JVM port, before I start optimizing... :)
07:34 GlitchMr joined
timotimo jnthn: could we use a jvm perl6 to build a parrot perl6 perhaps? :) 07:34
labster the parse time is just under half on my new laptop, too :)
timotimo oh wow, my laptop is melting from compiling rakudo 07:35
90 degC
FROGGS wow
moritz enough for pancakes \o/
FROGGS and there is even no need for an usb-pan :o) 07:36
07:36 ankit_ joined
labster rakudo: now making your life more delicious, too 07:36
camelia rakudo 14e7d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/yAvJUFTN9v:1␤------> now ⏏making your life more delicious, too␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix stopper␤ infix or meta-infix␤ statement end␤ stateme…
timotimo :)
jnthn timotimo: That's probably a bit tricky to set up.
07:36 ankit_ left
labster oh, hi camelia++ 07:36
timotimo i think my laptop fan isn't powerful enough. 07:37
i was idly thinking: how will turning lexical variables into local variables offer much optimisation when it's not being referred to in inner scopes? 07:38
labster I recently went through an overheating thing with a skinny iMac, took the fans out, cleaned them really well, and it works fine now.
jnthn timotimo: Cheaper to access, easier for runtimes to optimize with, shorter lifetime, and on the JVM port they live on the stack.
(As in, the referencfes and any natives do.) 07:39
timotimo oh. that does seem pretty nifty
how far would the optimizer look to make sure the lexical won't actually be needed? how about OUTER:: and such?
jnthn Yes, we should do it aggressively, but need to decide the fate of .eval
And define carefully what the boundaries of it are
Yeah, pseudo-packages would thwart it. 07:40
07:40 PacoAir left
timotimo so a function would have to be analysed to see if it uses pseudo-packages or eval or calls anything that uses pseudopackages or eval etc etc? 07:40
or if it uses a named lookup, because it could look up a function that uses a pseudopackage
hm. maybe in a first pass the optimizer could bail out if it sees any function call or operator invocation at all! m) 07:41
jnthn And also we need to analyze lexical capture 07:42
07:42 GlitchMr left
jnthn By nested closures, etc. 07:42
I think we should do it in NQP first.
timotimo that seems kind of out-of-my-domain now 07:43
but how about a function that introspects and pretty-prints packages and other stuff, like python's help function?
07:43 domidumont left
timotimo it could list members and display their Pods and so on 07:43
arnsholt jnthn: In Zavolaj #23 the Parrot folks are terribly annoyed about something we do in native_call_build, but I'm not entirely sure what exactly. Are you able to shed some more light on it? 07:44
They don't like us reaching into the internals of the PMCs, but it's an object whose implementation we control... 07:45
jnthn Um. Which PMCs? 07:47
SixModelObject stuff?
07:48 GlitchMr joined
jnthn Everything 6model related reaches into there, and it's just a case of stuff hanging off a struct. 07:48
uh, a struct of ours hanging off the PMC's data pointer, I mean.
timotimo sigh. rakudo repl :| 07:49
r: my $foo = 10; my $bar = "hello"; say ::.keys;
camelia rakudo 14e7d7: OUTPUT«$=pod !UNIT_MARKER GLOBALish EXPORT $?PACKAGE ::?PACKAGE $_ $/ $! $foo $bar␤»
timotimo $foo and $bar won't show up when the same code is entered in the repl
hoelzro didn't know about ::.keys 07:50
timotimo UNLESS it's in one line. then it works fine.
hoelzro timotimo: that's what I was about to ask =)
it's like local in Lua
arnsholt jnthn: Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I'll ask some more what they're annoyed about
hoelzro the my is specific to the chunk being compiled
hoelzro still has to figure out a way to pluck locals out of an execution
timotimo but you can still refer to those $foo and $bar in separate lines. they just won't show up in :: 07:51
hoelzro oh, really?
curious
timotimo yeah, it would be pretty terrible if you could define but not later use stuff in the repl
and OUTER:: won't get me anywhere either 07:52
07:54 pjcj left 07:55 GlitchMr left 07:56 pjcj joined 07:57 GlitchMr joined
dalek kudo/nom: 362a098 | (Brent Laabs)++ | src/RESTRICTED.setting:
add link, symlink, and chmod to RESTRICTED.setting
 07:57
jnthn arnsholt: gotta do teaching stuff now; bbl
arnsholt 'k 07:58
07:58 domidumont joined 08:01 sciurius left 08:03 domidumont left
lizmat is looking forward to the day that github.com/rakudo/rakudo#readme will be changed to include more VM's 08:05
08:06 arlinius left
moritz more VMs? 08:09
lizmat more than just the one Parrot
moritz ah, right 08:10
moritz currently manages some code at work where VM is really a vmware-instance, not a language runtime 08:11
thus my confusion
lizmat hehe...
08:11 berekuk left 08:13 GlitchMr left, GlitchMr joined
timotimo hum. what type constraint would i give a multi that should be invoked when i pass a package? 08:17
use Graphviz::Dot; help(Graphviz::Dot); # like this
hoelzro Any:U? 08:18
moritz r: package A; multi f(|) { 'default' }; multi f(A) { 'A' }; say f A
camelia rakudo 362a09: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤This appears to be Perl 5 code. If you intended it to be Perl 6 code, please use a Perl 6 style package block like "package Foo { ... }", or "module Foo; ...".␤at /tmp/mdnOtcPX16:1␤------> package A; ⏏multi f(|) { 'defa…
moritz r: package A { }; multi f(|) { 'default' }; multi f(A) { 'A' }; say f A
camelia rakudo 362a09: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Type A cannot be used as a nominal type on a parameter␤at /tmp/tY2jX72F2c:1␤------> { }; multi f(|) { 'default' }; multi f(A⏏) { 'A' }; say f A␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ statement end␤ sta…
timotimo hehe.
08:19 berekuk joined
timotimo moritz: i want to specify "any package", rather than "a specific package" 08:19
as in "call help on a package to get a list of all members that it exports and Pods for everything" 08:20
moritz r: package A { }; multi f(|) { 'default' }; multi f(Mu where { .HOW === Perl6::MetaModel::PackageHOW })) { 'A' }; say f A
camelia rakudo 362a09: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot do non-typename cases of type_constraint yet␤at /tmp/UAHjQDa0Kg:1␤------> .HOW === Perl6::MetaModel::PackageHOW }⏏)) { 'A' }; say f A␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ state…
moritz r: package A { }; multi f(|) { 'default' }; multi f(Mu $ where { .HOW === Perl6::MetaModel::PackageHOW })) { 'A' }; say f A 08:21
camelia rakudo 362a09: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Missing block␤at /tmp/JduAWHGOOC:1␤------> .HOW === Perl6::MetaModel::PackageHOW })⏏) { 'A' }; say f A␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ statement end␤ statement modifier␤ …
timotimo ah, that's a clever idea.
08:21 GlitchMr left
timotimo one ) too many 08:21
moritz r: package A { }; multi f(|) { 'default' }; multi f(Mu $ where { .HOW === Perl6::MetaModel::PackageHOW }) { 'A' }; say f A
camelia rakudo 362a09: OUTPUT«Could not find symbol '&PackageHOW'␤ in method <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:10042␤ in any at src/gen/Metamodel.nqp:2504␤ in any find_method_fallback at src/gen/Metamodel.nqp:2492␤ in any find_method at src/gen/Metamodel.nqp:939␤ in sub f at /tmp/DGfoJXqEn8:…
timotimo remove the Perl6::
moritz r: package A { }; multi f(|) { 'default' }; multi f(Mu $ where { .HOW === MetaModel::PackageHOW }) { 'A' }; say f A
camelia rakudo 362a09: OUTPUT«Could not find symbol '&PackageHOW'␤ in method <anon> at src/gen/CORE.setting:10042␤ in any at src/gen/Metamodel.nqp:2504␤ in any find_method_fallback at src/gen/Metamodel.nqp:2492␤ in any find_method at src/gen/Metamodel.nqp:939␤ in sub f at /tmp/_chWAPt9pJ:…
timotimo oh, wait
try Metamodel::ModuleHOW
moritz r: package A { }; multi f(|) { 'default' }; multi f(Mu $ where { .HOW === Metamodel::PackageHOW }) { 'A' }; say f A 08:22
camelia rakudo 362a09: OUTPUT«default␤»
moritz r: package A { }; multi f(Mu $) { 'default' }; multi f(Mu $ where { .HOW === Metamodel::PackageHOW }) { 'A' }; say f A
camelia rakudo 362a09: OUTPUT«default␤»
timotimo r: package A { }; multi f(|) { 'default' }; multi f(Mu $ where { .HOW === Metamodel::PackageHOW }) { 'A' }; say f A; multi f(Mu $ where { .HOW === Metamodel::ModuleHOW }) { 'B' };
camelia rakudo 362a09: OUTPUT«default␤»
moritz r: package A { }; multi f(Mu $) { 'default' }; multi f(Mu $ where {say .HOW; .HOW === Metamodel::PackageHOW }) { 'A' }; say f A
camelia rakudo 362a09: OUTPUT«Perl6::Metamodel::PackageHOW.new()␤default␤»
moritz oh
timotimo maybe ~~ instead of ===?
moritz r: package A { }; multi f(Mu $) { 'default' }; multi f(Mu $ where {say .HOW; .HOW.WHAT === Metamodel::PackageHOW }) { 'A' }; say f A
camelia rakudo 362a09: OUTPUT«Perl6::Metamodel::PackageHOW.new()␤Perl6::Metamodel::PackageHOW.new()␤A␤» 08:23
timotimo oh, hehe.
moritz .HOW is an instance, not the type object
timotimo that would explain it, yes
thanks! i'll start prototyping my help function. i guess it could totally be a panda-able module (although i'd love it to grow into a Star module, too)
08:25 snoopy left
lizmat afk for a few hours 08:26
08:31 GlitchMr joined 08:36 daxim joined, GlitchMr left
timotimo what's the sanest way to tell if my help sub has been recursively called? 08:36
oh, maybe a state variable would be good.
08:37 GlitchMr joined
moritz don't do that kind of detection, if you can avoid it 08:38
it breaks composability
rather have a different function that you use for recursion
timotimo i'd like to have the outermost call to help print out the result, but all inner calls should just do string concatenation
hm, perhaps that's saner, indeed.
oh, huh. 08:40
r: multi help(Routine $foo) { say "routine" }; multi help(Mu $foo where { .HOW.WHAT === Metamodel::ClassHOW }) { say "class" }; help(Routine); 08:41
camelia rakudo 362a09: OUTPUT«routine␤»
timotimo that's amusing :)
i suppose i have to check for the .HOW.WHAT there, too
08:41 sciurius joined
moritz or use Routine:D 08:42
timotimo that seems much better
08:43 GlitchMr left 08:45 GlitchMr joined
timotimo bbl 08:47
08:49 arlinius joined 08:50 sivoais left 08:51 sivoais joined, GlitchMr left 08:53 GlitchMr joined 08:54 sqirrel left 08:55 dakkar joined 08:56 sivoais left, sivoais joined 09:00 domidumont joined, GlitchMr left 09:04 sivoais left 09:05 sivoais joined 09:08 GlitchMr joined
masak r: .say for (bag slurp.words).pairs.sort(*.value).reverse[^10] # see twitter.com/colomon/status/336582604583219200 09:12
camelia rakudo 362a09: OUTPUT«"Land" => 5␤"der" => 4␤"Österreich!" => 3␤"Österreich," => 3␤"vielgeliebtes" => 2␤"und" => 2␤"in" => 2␤"vielgeprüftes" => 2␤"vielgerühmtes" => 2␤"du" => 2␤»
masak good antenoon, #perl6 09:13
09:14 sivoais left, sivoais joined
masak I was naturally inclined to do '.Bag' there instead of '(bag ...)'. I think the former reads better. but it's NYI. 09:15
moritz \o masak 09:19
09:23 sivoais left 09:24 sivoais joined
dalek : 261e15f | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (7 files):
override Perl6's stringy-methods, add warnings.pm

This is a somewhat bigger commit, which lets you:
   a) En-/disable warning categories, with defaults if arglist is missing.
   b) Query these categories using warnings::enabled().
   c) Override stringification by adding P5Str (and alike) methods.
   d) Call these P5Str methods from the AST produced within v5 blocks.		 09:24
09:30 fhelmberger joined 09:32 sivoais left 09:33 sivoais joined
masak spectests a patch to add List.Bag 09:33
ooh, Thursday is Rakudo release day. 09:36
hoelzro \o/
masak ++FROGGS
tadzik oh, I can volunteer for some realease 09:38
make it real
putting real in realease
FROGGS :o) 09:39
dalek kudo/nom: e782a0a | tadzik++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
Volunteer for #66
09:42 sivoais left, sivoais joined 09:48 arlinius left 09:50 sivoais left 09:51 sivoais joined 09:58 snuffles left 09:59 sivoais left, berekuk left 10:00 sivoais joined, berekuk joined 10:01 berekuk left 10:09 sivoais left, sivoais joined 10:13 domidumont left 10:17 sivoais left 10:18 sivoais joined
colomon masak: mono run/Niecza.exe -e ".say for slurp.words.Bag.pairs.sort(*.value).reverse[^10]" <words 10:19
"the" => 20 (etc)
locally
rn: gist.github.com/colomon/5618809 10:20
camelia niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«Land: 6.172840%␤der: 4.938272%␤Österreich!: 3.703704%␤Österreich,: 3.703704%␤vielgerühmtes: 2.469136%␤und: 2.469136%␤vielgeprüftes: 2.469136%␤vielgeliebtes: 2.469136%␤in: 2.469136%␤du: 2.469136%␤»
..rakudo e782a0: OUTPUT«Land: 6.172840%␤der: 4.938272%␤Österreich,: 3.703704%␤Österreich!: 3.703704%␤du: 2.469136%␤vielgerühmtes: 2.469136%␤vielgeprüftes: 2.469136%␤in: 2.469136%␤und: 2.469136%␤vielgeliebtes: 2.469136%␤»
masak colomon: nice. 10:22
(both .Bag working on Niecza, and the gist) 10:24
colomon .Bag doesn't work fully yet. But it works some. I'm holding off pushing the changes until I have more of the spec tests sorted. 10:25
(and I branched the spec tests so the changes don't slam rakudo all at once.) 10:26
10:26 sivoais left 10:27 sivoais joined
masak colomon++ 10:27
colomon I'm still not at all sure what is supposed to happen in the Set/Bag constructors. 10:28
for instance:
rn: say bag a=>1, b=>20, c=>30000
camelia rakudo e782a0: OUTPUT«3 unexpected named parameters passed (a, b, c)␤ in sub bag at src/gen/CORE.setting:13224␤ in block at /tmp/QeMU07IHZu:1␤␤»
..niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Excess arguments to bag, unused named a, b, c␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 0 (bag @ 1) ␤ at /tmp/BTZ9YRuRC0 line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4331 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/nie…
colomon rn: say bag { a=>1, b=>20, c=>30000 }
camelia rakudo e782a0, niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«bag("a" => 1, "b" => 20, "c" => 30000)␤»
colomon should that still work as is, or does it need to be { a=>1, b=>20, c=>30000 }.Bag? 10:29
masak I think the latter. 10:31
colomon and how does one implemented that .Bag without similar functionality in in Bag.new?
masak someone (maybe I) should totally make a table of the effects of 'bag', 'Bag.new', and '.Bag' on different things. 10:32
colomon I mean, obviously you can do it with a hidden method of some sort.
but that's yuck.
masak why is that yuck?
colomon giving the implementor access to a clearly useful method that isn't available to the user 10:33
10:36 sivoais left
moritz maybe Bag just needs two (public) constructors 10:36
10:37 sivoais joined, anuby_ joined
colomon related: the idea of a Set of Sets makes perfect sense. the idea of a KeySet of KeySets seems really weird to me. What does it mean to have mutable objects as your keys in a Set? 10:37
10:38 anuby left
colomon or even worse, I guess, a Set of KeySets. 10:38
10:38 domidumont joined 10:39 rindolf joined
colomon how can your set be immutable if its keys are mutable? 10:40
masak if it were up to me, you should never be able to put mutable things as keys to any container. 10:41
but Perl (5 or 6) was never keen on enforcing any stupid thing the programmer might do, so... 10:42
and I guess it sort of works out, as long as the contained KeySet hashes on its reference, not on its contents. 10:43
TimToady: what's KeySet.WHICH?
10:45 sivoais left 10:46 sivoais joined 10:47 arlinius joined
colomon masak: but we definitely want contained Sets to hash on their contents, not their reference, right? 10:47
10:47 snuffles joined
moritz a tuple of two integers, one identifying the type, one for the object 10:48
masak colomon: I don't know. if we do, we want to be very careful about every using Sets (et al.) as hash keys. can't have the cake and eat it. 10:49
colomon masak: I'd argue an array of mutable things makes perfect sense, even if it's not functional programming. but a Hash keyed with mutable things? That's kind of insane.
masak agreed.
10:49 snuffles left
masak t/spec/S32-str/substr.rakudo aborts here with 'ICU not loaded'. is it wrongly catgegorized in spectests.data ? 10:50
spectest*
appears so. should I add an '# icu' comment? 10:51
10:51 snuffles joined
moritz yes 10:51
masak does so
dalek kudo/nom: ddaa3f6 | masak++ | t/spectest.data:
[spectest.data] mark t/spec/S32-str/substr.t as # icu
 10:52
10:55 sivoais left 10:56 sivoais joined 10:57 rindolf left, rindolf joined
lizmat after my pull request of last night, unifying the API of hash() and Hash.new, and the initial reaction to that here, I thought I'd make it an issue: github.com/perl6/specs/issues/43 11:01
11:04 sivoais left 11:05 sivoais joined 11:10 PacoAir joined
masak lizmat++ 11:11
11:11 gdey joined
lizmat I was actually considering putting in a deprecation warning in hash() if called with only named params, not being "type" and/or "of" 11:11
and then, for now, create the hash anyway 11:12
in any case, with rakudo builds and spectests ok with this change to hash()
(except for the 2 tests that actually test hash( a => 1 ) 11:13
11:14 sivoais left, tgt joined 11:15 sivoais joined, rindolf left 11:16 rindolf joined
colomon masak: IMO, the entire point of allowing Sets of Sets is that it should be easy to do and by the value of the Set, not the particular object. 11:20
so set(1, 3) (elem) set(set(1,3), 1, 3) should work 11:21
11:21 aindilis left, cooper left 11:23 sivoais left 11:24 SamuraiJack joined, cooper joined, sivoais joined
masak colomon: a very good point. aye. 11:28
and with Set and Bag, which are immutable, there isn't really a problem.
it's KeySet and KeyBag which will need attention.
in my view, two questions: 11:29
(a) do those still .WHICH on their contents?
colomon If Set and Bag have mutable keys, it is a very big problem.
masak (b) if so, should we issue a warning if someone tries to put them in a keying container?
lizmat I'm still not sure what you mean with a "mutable container" ?
masak colomon: yes, the general problem is indeed immutable containers with mutable keys. 11:30
lizmat: who said "mutable container"? :)
lizmat sorry, mutable key
masak lizmat: the issue here is keys which can change in hashing/keying containers. 11:31
lizmat so for instance:
masak lizmat: like an Employee object, hashing on its contents, used as a key in a Set.
lizmat the way I understand typed hashes, is that the actual key is the internal id of the container, and that *is* immutable afaik 11:32
masak r: class Person { has $.name; method WHICH { "Person<$.name>" } }; say Person.new(:name<Berit>).WHICH
camelia rakudo ddaa3f: OUTPUT«Person<Berit>␤»
11:33 sivoais left
masak r: class Person { has $.name is rw; method WHICH { "Person<$.name>" } }; my $p = Person.new(:name<Berit>).WHICH; my $set = set $p; $p.name = "Sofia"; say $set.keys[0].WHICH 11:33
moritz r: class Person { has $.name; method WHICH { "Person<$.name>" } }; my %h{Person}; %h{Person.new(:name<Berit>)} = 1; say %h{Person.new(:name<Berit>)}
camelia rakudo ddaa3f: OUTPUT«No such method 'name' for invocant of type 'Str'␤ in block at /tmp/ZFbgpE8mcF:1␤␤»
rakudo ddaa3f: OUTPUT«1␤»
masak hm.
r: class Person { has $.name is rw; method WHICH { "Person<$.name>" } }; my $p = Person.new(:name<Berit>).WHICH; my $set = set $p; $p.name = "Sofia"; say $set{$p}.WHICH
moritz currently set() still stringifies
camelia rakudo ddaa3f: OUTPUT«No such method 'name' for invocant of type 'Str'␤ in block at /tmp/5Wlr1DpI99:1␤␤»
colomon lizmat: the problem here is basically a collision of ideas
masak moritz: oh.
11:34 sivoais joined
lizmat r: class A {}; my $a=A.new; my %h{A}=$a=>1; say nqp::getattr( %h, EnumMap, '$!storage'); 11:36
11:36 rindolf left
camelia rakudo ddaa3f: OUTPUT«("A|-480576731" => 1).hash␤» 11:36
11:36 rindolf joined, xenoterracide left
lizmat so it's not a stringification of the hash that is the key, it's some internal ID 11:37
moritz object hashes use the object's .WHICH as key
lizmat or am I completely off the rails here?
colomon is WHICH supposed to be smart enough to distinguish between mutable and immutable objects? 11:39
ie if I do set(1,3) twice, will they both have the same WHICH value?
lizmat doesn't seem so
colomon lizmat: ideally, not by current implementation. :) 11:40
moritz colomon: WHICH must be made smart enough manually 11:41
ie if you build a class of immutable objects, you write a WHICH which hashes the object 11:42
11:42 sivoais left
colomon then I guess that's the solution? 11:43
11:43 sivoais joined, domidumont left
moritz for sets, yes 11:44
colomon so Set.WHICH should be based on the values contained, and KeySet.WHICH should be a reference to the KeySet object. 11:45
moritz yes
(though using mutable values as hash keys is still a call for trouble)
colomon I suspect that will sometimes be confusing, but at least it's consistent and presumably implementable. 11:46
11:47 PacoAir left 11:50 SamuraiJack left, SamuraiJack_ joined 11:51 tgt left, rindolf left 11:52 sivoais left, PacoAir joined
colomon set(set(1,3), set(1,3)) should have one elements. set(KeySet.new(1,3), KeySet.new(1,3)) should have two. 11:52
11:52 rindolf joined 11:53 sivoais joined 11:56 jest1 joined
jest1 hi guys 11:56
masak jest1: hi!
jest1 I wanted to hack a bit on nqp on JVM, as generally JVM is my platform
masak nice. 11:57
tadzik hello jest1 :)
masak colomon: so essentially what you're saying is that KeySet.WHICH should *not* be content-based.
jest1 ...of daily development. The problem is, I can't find a reasonable description of what nqp is
I know it is a proper subset of Perl6, but what I can read from t/ dir is not enough :) 11:58
moritz jest1: it doesn't (yet?) have a formal specification, or extensive documentation :(
nwc10 jest1: you're in Poland?
moritz jest1: we use it to bootstrap the Rakudo Perl 6 compiler, and give it all the features it needs for that
and not (much) more
jest1 is there any way I can semi-automatically parse/read source code to guess the existing subs?
nwc10: yep, Poznań, Poland :) 11:59
11:59 fgomez joined
jest1 I want to learn something before PLPW in Warsaw in a week, so tadzik sent me here :) 11:59
nwc10 and you're aware of the Polish Perl workshop, and that (at least) jnthn is going? act.yapc.eu/plpw2013/
aha.
good :-)
tadzik :) 12:00
nwc10 (just checking)
jest1 yea, I know, but wanted my hands a bit dirty before
masak afk for ~1h
jest1 just to ask a sensible questions :)
nwc10 yes, sensible questions. problem is I don't know the right answers. Or at least, the good short answers
12:01 rindolf left
nwc10 jnthn is the best person to answer, but he's at an on-site teaching job today 12:01
jest1 I meant the questions to jnthn
ok
12:01 rindolf joined
nwc10 if pmichaud is around, he might be able to answer 12:01
12:01 sivoais left
jest1 and how do I read NQP sources to see what's available? I guess Parrot/JVM makes difference here? 12:02
nwc10 I can't answer better than you said already
tadzik jest1: ack '^\s*sub' is generally a good guess at existing subs :)
12:02 sivoais joined
tadzik jest1: but nqp has very little runtime stuff, you mostly use opcodes 12:02
nwc10 aha, I can answer that
the source for NQP is git://github.com/perl6/nqp.git
the source for Rakudo is git://github.com/rakudo/rakudo.git 12:03
right now, you want the branch origin/rak-jvm-support in NQP (not master)
jest1 I got that, I compiled, tested (with errors) and run simple programs
nwc10 ah OK cool. I think you now know more than me. :-( 12:04
jest1 looked around in t/ subdirectory to have a feeling what a NQP program looks like, but I miss a lot, e.g. strings manipulation
moritz well, nqp mostly has nqp::substr and regexes 12:05
and a few others, like nqp::split, nqp::join, nqp::index
nwc10 the lower level bits of Rakudo are written in NQP, so look for files named *.nqp in the Rakudo checkout for more examples
but yes, that's not a spec
or a tutorial.
jest1 for starter I wanted some anagrams-by-permutation (I'm doing it for my students in Java in parallel, so it would be a nice comparison), but couldn't find perl5's substr, length, etc.
ok, I'll see Rakudo 12:06
moritz nqp::substr, nqp::chars
nqp: my $s := 'abc'; say(nqp::substr($s, 1));
camelia nqp: OUTPUT«bc␤»
moritz nqp: my $s := 'abc'; say(nqp::substr($s, 0, 1));
jest1 oh, that looks so... obvious :)
camelia nqp: OUTPUT«a␤»
moritz nqp: my $s := 'abc'; say(nqp::chars($s));
camelia nqp: OUTPUT«3␤»
12:07 btyler joined
moritz jest1: feel free to ask in here if you need more stuff, and can't find it 12:07
jest1 nice, I thought they are internal somhow
ok, going hacking then
moritz if you write NQP code, you need them
jest1 by the way, is it expected that nqp@jvm has so many failing tests?
Now that I know of nqp::substr, docs/nqp-opcode.txt contains some hints on more subs 12:09
12:10 sivoais left 12:11 sivoais joined
dalek : 8a2baad | (Tobias Leich)++ | t/test.pl:
many tests have no description, pass "" instead
 12:12
: 1e2611e | (Tobias Leich)++ | STATUS.md:
update after test.pl changes
12:13 skids left 12:18 rindolf left 12:19 rindolf joined 12:20 sivoais left 12:21 sivoais joined 12:29 sivoais left, btyler left 12:30 sivoais joined
[Coke] @in 12:33
12:34 anuby_ left
pmichaud good morning, #perl6 12:35
12:35 rindolf left
pmichaud fwiw, the :of and :type named argument additions to .hash() and Hash.new() feel wrongish to me. 12:35
12:35 rindolf joined 12:36 sqirrel joined, PacoAir left, PacoAir joined
FROGGS :/ 12:37
moritz I'd prefer it if nqp::clone would reproduce the type of the argument, including mixed-in roles 12:38
12:39 sivoais left 12:40 sivoais joined 12:41 rindolf left, rindolf joined
colomon rn: say 10.WHICH 12:44
camelia rakudo ddaa3f: OUTPUT«Int|10␤»
..niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«10[1C381F00]␤»
colomon rn: say (10/1).WHICH
camelia niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«10.0[-1B0B3B80]␤» 12:45
..rakudo ddaa3f: OUTPUT«Rat|10/1␤»
12:45 domidumont joined 12:48 sivoais left 12:49 sivoais joined 12:50 tgt joined
moritz n: say 10.WHICH, 10.WHICH 12:50
camelia niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«10[-1D780880]10[-1D780880]␤»
moritz ah, I guess the hex thingy is a type ID
n: say 10.WHICH, Int.WHICH
camelia niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«10[1C381F00][1C381F00]␤»
12:51 risou_awy is now known as risou 12:56 SamuraiJack_ left 12:57 SamuraiJack_ joined
colomon n: say "Hello".WHICH 12:58
camelia niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«str|Hello[-2BC40200]␤»
12:58 sivoais left, Su-Shee joined
colomon n: say "Hello".WHICH, "blue".WHICH 12:58
camelia niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«str|Hello[3D23B880]str|blue[3D23B880]␤»
Su-Shee masak: so, I killed the productivity of 4 companies at least with it. ;)
colomon n: say "Hello".WHICH, "blue".WHICH 12:59
camelia niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«str|Hello[23A3880]str|blue[23A3880]␤»
12:59 sivoais joined
colomon n: say (1, 2, 3).WHICH, (1, 2, 3).WHICH 12:59
camelia niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«[6F654C00][-7BF4E200]␤»
13:00 rindolf left
[Coke] r: say "Sand".WHICH 13:00
camelia rakudo ddaa3f: OUTPUT«Str|Sand␤»
13:00 rindolf joined 13:01 ajr joined
[Coke] ~~ to pmichaud et al. 13:01
13:01 ajr is now known as Guest28756 13:04 bluescreen10 joined
pmichaud is glad the 2012 robotics season is finally over. :) 13:05
13:07 bluescreen100 joined
colomon pmichaud: Our local high school team ended up going to the big tournament in St. Louis 13:07
pmichaud colomon: coooool. 13:08
nwc10 pmichaud: when did the 2013 season start?
13:08 sivoais left, daniel-s__ joined
pmichaud nwc10: 2013 season starts Aug 1. 13:08
(signups opened on May 6, our team is still discussing a new team name for 2013 :)
colomon: our region wasn't in the rotation this year for St. Louis, or we would've gone there instead. 13:09
13:09 sivoais joined
colomon admits he has no idea how the system works. :) 13:09
local coaches are friends of ours, though.
masak Su-Shee: :)
pmichaud the World event in St. Louis rotates among each of the regional championships. North Texas went to St. Louis for the 2011 season, so we weren't in the rotation for this year. 13:10
Going to LEGOLAND Calif was a nice "consolation", though. :)
colomon LEGOLAND!
13:10 bluescreen10 left 13:12 daniel-s_ left
dalek kudo/nom: a134b18 | masak++ | / (3 files):
[src/core] add .Set and .Bag to List and Parcel
 13:15
pmichaud masak: why "Set" and "Bag" and not ".set" and ".bag", ooc? 13:16
moritz it feels slightly dirty that we have to add most methods to both List and Parcel
sounds like we need a better place for them, like Iterable or Positional or so 13:17
pmichaud Iterable, more likely.
then Hash would get them also. 13:18
13:18 sivoais left, sivoais joined
masak feel free to refactor as you see fit. 13:18
colomon pmichaud: I initially had it .set and .bag, but discussion with TimToady convinced me .Set and .Bag were better.
masak pmichaud: why .Set and .Bag with capitals? because that's how TimToady always wrote it in emails to p6l etc.
pmichaud: essentially "render as this type". 13:19
coercion.
pmichaud sure.
colomon .list and .hash are the exceptions, most types coerce with cased typename
masak pmichaud: actually, .list and .hash with lower-case letters are the ones I always feel uneasy about.
pmichaud: I have no idea what they do, or why they're needed.
well, I have some idea, but I'm never 100% sure. 13:20
pmichaud .list and .hash correspond to @ and % modifiers.
masak I have this permutation-programming cargo-cult thing I do where I sometimes just add .list to stuff when things don't listify properly.
but I do it without much understanding.
moritz the problem is really that .list serves two different purposes 13:21
1) turn a non-list into a list
pmichaud and, in the case of Match objects, .list and .hash are selectors more than coercers.
moritz 2) turn a list-in-scalar into a list-that-will-flatten
13:21 rindolf left
masak so, three different purposes. 13:21
should I come in again? :P 13:22
pmichaud 3) select the "list" view of an object
masak NOBODY EXPECTS THE PERL6 LISTIQUISION!
moritz the distinction between 1) and 3) is often artificial
my formulation just wasn't great
colomon OUR CHIEF WEAPON IS CONFUSION!
pmichaud well, "turn a non-list into a list" sounds more like "create a new List" to me than "select the list view of an object" 13:23
in that sense, one would expect .List and .Hash to always construct a new List/Hash, as opposed to selecting the list form.
i.e., I'd expect $/.List to create a List of a single match object, whereas $/.list would return the positional captures
dalek : 5180822 | (Tobias Leich)++ | lib/Perl5/ (2 files):
stringify arrays
 13:25
: 0baf9a4 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (2 files):
fixed: my($a, $b, $c) = ...
moritz would expect (nearly) everybody to be confused by having both .list and .List and having them do different things
pmichaud if it wouldn't be so long, one could propose that @(something) should desugar to something.positional instead of something.list
then Match.positional would return the positional captures 13:26
and "@" would be the "positional sigil" instead of the "list sigil" or "array sigil"
13:26 kaleem left
moritz let's just shortend it to Match.pos... oh, wait! :-) 13:26
13:26 sivoais left
pmichaud same for % / .associative instead of .hash 13:26
[Coke] Match.@ ;)
13:27 sivoais joined
colomon .positional and .associative seem sensible to me. If one feels they are too long, one can always use @() and %() 13:27
tadzik haha
13:29 telex left 13:30 telex joined
masak colomon: I thought you were going for "If one feels they are too long, one can always use .pos and .ass" :P 13:32
colomon :p
masak anyway, +1 to a rename a la .positional and .associative 13:33
pmichaud also, why are .Set and .Bag defined only for List and Parcel? Perhaps they should go on Any or Cool.
masak though since those are actually types, maybe they should actually be .Positional and .Associative ?
pmichaud since they appear to be acting in their "listy" forms.
masak pmichaud: yes, probably.
colomon pmichaud: they go everywhere
List and Parcel are just specific examples. 13:34
dunno why masak started there
masak please feel free to improve on my patch.
PerlJam good $localtime #perl6!
pmichaud colomon: yes, and I try to keep the codebase clean of "specific examples"
colomon masak: I'm working on the same thing in Niecza.
masak with List and Parcel, it feels like an actual coercion. with Any or Cool, it feels like it's a composition.
pmichaud colomon: having one or two general cases is a lot preferable to N special cases
colomon pmichaud: unfortunately, N special cases is probably needed 13:35
13:35 prevost left
pmichaud colomon: why is that? 13:35
13:35 sivoais left
pmichaud (this is why I'm not simply refactoring masak++'s patch on my own; I don't understand the problem space well enough yet) 13:35
colomon pmichaud: though you should feel free in joining me arguing the current "spec" is too complicated
;)_
pmichaud colomon: complicated in what manner?
colomon pmichaud: different types have different ways of coercing to Set (etc) 13:36
13:36 sivoais joined
pmichaud colomon: okay, as I said, I don't understand the problem space well enough then. 13:36
I'd need examples.
is there a spec issue for this?
colomon no spec issue so far as I know. 13:37
pmichaud ah.
"arguing the current 'spec' is too complicated" probably implies "let's create an issue ticket for it" :)
colomon yes
well, it's somewhere between too complicated and under-specified
which is a bad combination.
moritz reminds me of the IO specs :-) 13:38
pmichaud so we need a ticket on which we can hang use cases and discussion
afk, kid to school
colomon pmichaud: sounds reasonable to me.
13:38 rindolf joined
colomon gets to making a ticket 13:38
13:38 skids joined 13:44 sivoais left 13:45 sivoais joined 13:47 crab2313 joined, gudahtt joined 13:49 SamuraiJack_ left
FROGGS does somebody know how to do a post-modification-hook on a variable? is that somehow possible using an lvalue sub? 13:50
(instead of a variable)
masak feels like a thing .STORE should be able to do, yes.
moritz probably possible with a proxy
masak (because .STORE does the modification, and you can put code after that)
moritz (Proxy lets you write your own STORE) 13:51
FROGGS \o/
masak moritz: we should totally co-write a conf talk at some point :) 13:52
I don't know why I thought about this now.
probably be cause we both explained the same thing, in a way that made the totality exceed the sum of the parts. :)
PerlJam masak: trying to increase the confusion that people seem to already have between the two of you? ;)
13:53 sivoais left
masak *cackle* 13:53
moritz confusion? who? where? 13:54
masak PerlJam: no, I'm not. not really.
PerlJam masak, moritz: there is always lightning talks.
masak ooh
13:54 sivoais joined
masak moritz: confusion! even *I* confuse the two of us sometimes! :P 13:54
13:54 Guest28756 is now known as ajr_
arnsholt I think I need to figure out how to do Proxy stuff as well 13:54
masak "...where was that post I wrote, that was so great? oh wait, I didn't write that one, moritz++ did..." :P 13:55
arnsholt Probably the best way to hook into variables like errno for NativeCall
moritz masak: seems you have a small identity crisis. Which means that I have a small identity crisis. :-) 13:56
masak :P
13:56 crab2313 left
masak oh, the duality. 13:56
PerlJam
.oO( how to increase the size of your identity ... crisis )
Su-Shee it's very simple, in any fairy tale you just put moritz' wife between them and et viola you will soon know who is who. done. 13:57
masak as long as you can keep us apart well enough to find out whose wife is moritz'... 13:59
Su-Shee everybody who is sold to me as moritz' wife. ;) I believe anything. 14:00
masak that does simplify things.
PerlJam I thought you needed some rope and a sword or something ...
maybe a baby 14:01
14:01 rindolf left
masak this is getting far too complicated. 14:01
14:01 rindolf joined
masak even my clones agree. 14:02
Su-Shee PerlJam: re-read fairy tales, man..
moritz can serve with wife, child and rope, but has no sword at home :/
14:02 sivoais left
FROGGS r: my $a = 0; sub lv() is rw { Proxy.new: FETCH => method () { $a }, STORE => method ($n) { $a = $n; say $n } }; lv() = 42 14:02
camelia rakudo ddaa3f: OUTPUT«42␤»
FROGGS r: my $a = 0; sub lv() is rw { Proxy.new: FETCH => method () { $a }, STORE => method ($n) { $a = $n; say $n } }; lv()++
camelia rakudo ddaa3f: OUTPUT«1␤»
Su-Shee moritz: your wife should have one, from back in the day, being a viking shield maid and all...
14:03 sivoais joined
moritz Su-Shee: it was passed to her sister (oldest) or brother (male) :-( 14:03
Su-Shee moritz: you should have married the sister then.. ;)
moritz: sell masak to her sister. even better. 14:04
14:04 kaleem joined
moritz was never good at selling 14:04
Su-Shee: maybe a blood feud for not inheriting the sword would fit better? :-) 14:05
Su-Shee sure, works too. but you probably get a goat or two on the market for the masak.. he's young, he's able..
14:06 btyler joined
masak backlogs the last few minutes, naturally not expecting discussion about him being bartered for goats 14:08
hey wait
was this an either-or sitation? marry moritz' sister OR being sold for two goats? or do I have to do both? 14:09
moritz masak: not my suggestion :-)
pmichaud but we now have a way to distinguish the two of you. One of you isn't being sold for goats. :)
masak moritz: no, but it was suggested by someone whose nick almost sounds like "sudo" :P
Su-Shee masak: that clearly depends on moritz' ability as a tradesman..
moritz masak: :-)
masak this is by far the silliest conversation I've had this week. 14:10
Su-Shee don't be shy, folks, mr shee bought me on the internet for two goats and his little sister.. ;)
masak: glad to please :)
moritz masak: don't worry, the week's still young
masak throws a CoC at Su-Shee :P
Su-Shee: you're offending people who were actually bought for two goats and a sister on the Internet! 14:11
Su-Shee "section 3, paragraph 4, subsection 345234 clearly states that developers are not to be sold under price"
PerlJam
.oO( says the man who was talking about .pos and .ass earlier ;)
masak PerlJam: .ass is in the Bible!
Su-Shee masak: SO IS GOAT SELLING :)
14:11 sivoais left
masak ok, point. 14:12
14:12 btyler left
colomon is threatening to slice a child in half to determine parentage actually in the Bible, or just one of the legends attached to Solomon? 14:13
14:13 bowtie joined
pmichaud I've looked all through the Camel Book and haven't see anything about goat selling, .pos, or .ass 14:13
*seen
Su-Shee colomon: be happy it's not attached to colomon..
pmichaud: clearly, because it's a _camel_ book.
colomon .camelass 14:14
pmichaud right. You all must be using some non-standard Bible.
PerlJam
.oO( Is there an Ass book? )
Su-Shee (sorry. I had too much black tea and staring at python :)
masak colomon: it's actually in there.
tadzik I'm sure there is one
masak colomon: hold on, I'll get you chapter and verse ;)
colomon: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Solomon
1Kings 3:16-28, apparently. 14:15
colomon masak++
Su-Shee
.oO(now I see masak standing at the corner of the street, camel book in his hand, trying to convince people of the gospel of perl.. ;)
masak THE END TIMES ARE NEAR! LEARN PERL 6 BEFORE PHP DESCENDS ON US ALL! 14:16
PerlJam Apocalyptic ranting even! ;)
FROGGS r: my $a = 0; sub lv() is rw { Proxy.new: FETCH => method () { $a }, STORE => method ($n) { $a = $n; say $n } }; my $s := &lv; $s = 1 14:17
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable value␤ in block at /tmp/yJMvr1dweD:1␤␤»
masak imagine 1000 years of PHP. and you have to tattoo "php.net" on your wrist.
FROGGS masak/moritz: can I bind this proxy to a variable?
Su-Shee didn't google just recently declare PHP the winner in the web race?
14:17 sivoais joined
PerlJam
.oO( Are masak and moritz synoptic twins? )
 14:18
FROGGS ( I want to fake P5's $| )
moritz FROGGS: sure
FROGGS what have I done wrong?
pmichaud lv never was invoked. 14:19
r: my $a = 0; sub lv() is rw { Proxy.new: FETCH => method () { $a }, STORE => method ($n) { $a = $n; say $n } }; my $s := lv(); $s = 1; 14:20
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«1␤»
pmichaud r: my $a = 0; sub lv() is rw { Proxy.new: FETCH => method () { $a }, STORE => method ($n) { $a = $n; say $n } }; my $s := lv(); $s = 1; say $a; 14:21
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«1␤1␤»
14:21 rindolf left
moritz iirc FETCH and STORE have some weird argument counts 14:21
14:21 rindolf joined
moritz look for working examples in the setting 14:21
(they get an invocant, but it's usually ignored)
14:23 btyler joined, sivoais left, sivoais joined
FROGGS r: my $a = 0; sub lv() is rw { Proxy.new: FETCH => method () { $a }, STORE => method ($n) { $a = $n; say $n } }; my $s := lv(); $s++ 14:23
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«1␤»
FROGGS r: my $a = 0; sub lv() is rw { Proxy.new: FETCH => method () { $a }, STORE => method ($n) { $a = $n; say $n } }; my $s := lv(); $s-- 14:24
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«-1␤»
FROGGS cool
14:26 SmokeMachine left
colomon pmichaud: github.com/perl6/specs/issues/44 14:27
lizmat r: my %h=a =>1, b=>2; say %h<a b>.kv; say %h<a b>:kv # confusion about .kv and :kv, .kv does not what you expect on slices 14:28
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«0 1 1 2␤a 1 b 2␤»
pmichaud I can see why others would be confused, but .kv works on lists. 14:29
and %h<a b> returns a list.
I don't think the proposed patch "solves" the problem being identified here.
14:30 SmokeMachine joined
lizmat %h<a b> returns a Parcel 14:31
pmichaud okay, Parcel then.
still, the proposed patch doesn't solve the issue, since it's not .kv on any of Int, Str, etc.
14:31 sivoais left
lizmat I think it is, by inheritance… , let me check 14:32
14:32 btyler left, sivoais joined
lizmat also: I have been looking at the one place to put this in, but couldn't find it. So in that sense my patch is incomplete / incorrect 14:33
pmichaud Parcel inherits from Any, and Any.kv is defined as { self.list.kv }
which returns to my original statement that .kv works on lists.
lizmat r: say 1.kv; say "foo".kv 14:34
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«0 1␤0 foo␤»
pmichaud r: say (1, "foo").kv
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«0 1 1 foo␤»
lizmat it's *those* case, where I think calling .kv doesn't make any sense, and is potentially confusing, I want to die on 14:35
r: my %h=a=>1; say %h<a>.kv; say %h<a>:kv
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«0 1␤a 1␤»
pmichaud my point being that those cases have nothing to do with slicing.
moritz there are lot of cases where we assume that single scalars can behave as lists
lizmat a one element slice then
moritz nr: say 42.join('blah') 14:36
camelia rakudo a134b1, niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«42␤»
moritz this is intentional
lizmat anyway, the confusion between ".kv" and ":kv" bit me, and I thought it could be prevented
PerlJam lizmat: have you found any other listy methods whose behavior is surprising? Maybe .kv is just a "special case" here and the right solution is just good documentation. 14:37
TimToady possibly we could detect it syntactically rather than by dispatch
pmichaud if you want to prevent .kv from working on built-in scalars, then the place to do it will be in either Any or Cool
as opposed to each individual type.
lizmat well, in the case of .pairs and :p, there is a lot less confusion, as they are not named the same
pmichaud I'm not opposed to removing method kv from Any. 14:38
then one would have to explicitly get a list-ish sort of thing to have it work.
i.e., 1.list.kv
%h<a>.list.kv
lizmat that would work also, but I felt that was too drastic a thing to propose :-) 14:39
pmichaud it's less drastic than sprinkling special-purpose kv methods all over the place :)
lizmat perhaps, maybe I'm still a bad surgeon 14:40
pmichaud in general, I feel that writing a method to "turn off" a behavior implies a probable misdesign higher in the hierarchy.
lizmat another way could be to simply rename .kv to .keyvalue
pmichaud or changing :kv to be :keyvalue 14:41
lizmat adverbial pairs :p :k :v :p would then match .pairs .keys .values .keyvalue
14:41 sivoais left
lizmat :kv 14:41
pmichaud I think that for @list.kv { ... } is a pretty common pattern, though.
I'd hate to de-huffmanize that one.
TimToady it's bad huffman coding
14:42 sivoais joined, domidumont left
lizmat :keyvalue then? the difference with :p is lost on most people anyway 14:42
:-)
PerlJam pmichaud: it'd just become for @list[]:kv { ... } wouldn't it? Not that much different. 14:43
:)
TimToady :㎸
pmichaud PerlJam: what if @list is actually a method chain producing a list
for $object.something.kv becomes for $object.something.list[]:kv ick ick ick 14:44
moritz please don't make the common use cases any more complicated
lizmat .u ㎸
yoleaux U+33B8 SQUARE KV [So] (㎸)
moritz I use .kv on lists a lot
pmichaud .kv works everywhere, .adverbial pairs only work on .[]
lizmat but that's it: I'm not against using .kv on lists per se
Su-Shee moritz: for the typical item, index pair?
TimToady I think just disallowing .kv after a subscript syntactically might be the best
lizmat maybe it *is* just a matter of documentation
moritz Su-Shee: yes 14:45
pmichaud TimToady: I'm not often fond of syntactic disallows, but I agree in this case.
14:45 rindolf left
TimToady or warning, with "insert <mumble> to disable this warning" 14:45
pmichaud syntactic disallows get into all sorts of tokenization issues for us :)
Su-Shee moritz: I _love_ that construct.
14:45 rindolf joined
masak want to see a C compiler in 728 lines of OCaml? c9x.me/qcc/ -- nice! 14:45
Su-Shee: yes, me too. I use it all the time. 14:46
lizmat please, please, I'm not against that
moritz "Inner machinery 14:47
Disgusting. "
masak :)
the author has high standards.
moritz :-)
masak if you read on, he means that he doesn't have much architecture.
lizmat as TimToady pointed out, that what I hadn't realized, is that it should not work after a subscript
masak which may be a good thing or a bad thing.
moritz yes :-) 14:48
pmichaud one could likely use parens to disable the warning
(%h<a>).kv
TimToady std: .<a>\.kv 14:49
camelia std 8850393: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 41m␤»
TimToady a method is a postfix, so you can use \
pmichaud do we do the same for .keys and .pairs, ooc?
i.e., %h<a>.keys warns ?
PerlJam std: %h<a>().kv
camelia std 8850393: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable %h is not predeclared at /tmp/0idVLuJHSD line 1:␤------> <BOL>⏏%h<a>().kv␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:00 42m␤»
lizmat perhaps, but the chance for confusion is less as the adverbial counterparts are named differently 14:50
14:50 jest1 left 14:51 sivoais left
TimToady hmm, wonder if :k:v would work 14:51
14:51 sivoais joined
lizmat TimToady: it could 14:51
TimToady since named args are unordered and taken as a lump 14:52
lizmat ( at least the way I now understand )
pmichaud that kind of implies a :v:k, though.
TimToady huh? "unordered"
:v:k and :k:v are entirely equivalent
pmichaud well, the name "kv" implies to me "key then value"
TimToady I think :v:k would be Doctor it hurts when I think psychotically 14:53
it's fine it it does the same thing, I think
*if it
lizmat :p:v:k for the truly disturbed ;-) 14:54
pmichaud for %h{@slice}:kv -> $key, $value { ... }
for %h{@slice}:k:v -> $key, $value { ... }
for %h{@slie}:v:k -> $value, $key { ... }
TimToady you can't suddently make named args have an order
pmichaud I'm not saying it *should* work that way, just that it's where my mind naturally goes.
lizmat btw, what's the rationale between having :p *and* :kv ? 14:55
don't they coerce to the same in the above situation?
moritz lizmat: both have their use cases
pmichaud lizmat: it's hard to make the above for loops work with :p
lizmat ok
moritz for example :p lets you easily .sort afterwards
TimToady because we don't have a good siggie unpacker for pairs yet
moritz because cmp on Pairs compairs first by key, then by value
TimToady but still thinking we should allow => in a sig
moritz but unpacking is a bit nastier 14:56
TimToady: that would be nice, yes
TimToady $head => @tail would become idiom for => lists
moritz in general, pairs are easier if you have a longer pipe and don't want to separate key and value
lizmat moritz: gotcha
FROGGS damn it, now I have a working proxy to call $*OUT.autoflush when $| gets set, but IO::Handle has no autoflush anymore >.< 14:57
TimToady especially if you happen to have stored the hash entries as pairs to begin with
moritz I often work around the lack of firstidx with @list.pairs.first(*.value ~~ $Matcher).?key
14:57 REPLeffect joined
moritz or something similar 14:57
14:57 domidumont joined
TimToady why was autoflush removed? 14:57
it's a very useful thing 14:58
lizmat r: my %h{Pair}; %h{ a => 1 }= 2; say %h # ooh, wow
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«(("a" => 1) => 2).hash␤»
pmichaud anyway, ":kv" and ".kv" have an implicit order in the name, breaking them apart means that some people will think of ".vk" and ":v:k". Again, I'm not advocating for ":v:k" doing value, key order... but I can see people asking why it gets the order wrong.
TimToady well, I'm still thinking a syntactic warning is best, and leave it at :kv for now
pmichaud works for me. 14:59
TimToady leaves open the possibility of .vk and :vk too
masak +1 on all counts 15:00
15:00 sivoais left
masak I've sometimes felt the need for .vk 15:00
lizmat I will close my pull request
15:00 rindolf left
masak it happens when you reverse lists. 15:00
15:00 rindolf joined, sivoais joined
PerlJam wonders what people will think of :v:p:k or :p:k:v 15:05
lizmat rn: my %h=a=>1,b=>2; say %h<a b>:exists 15:06
camelia niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«True True␤»
..rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«Cannot use exists adverb with a slice␤ in method postcircumfix:<{ }> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1688␤ in method postcircumfix:<{ }> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1642␤ in block at /tmp/M5Jztdk00E:1␤␤»
lizmat rakudo dies for some reason, not according to spec
fixed in pull #150, but that depends on #149, allowing for :!exists 15:07
masak looks at #149
15:09 sivoais left
masak haha, ':$delete! where so $delete' :) 15:09
lizmat I didn't make that one up, pmichaud did!
or was it jnthn?
15:10 sivoais joined
lizmat the "so" is needed, because for some reason :delete(0) was also handled by that candidate 15:10
masak yes, of course.
as long as you pass anything...
TimToady PerlJam: if there are no candidates that accept multiple named args, the dispatch simply fails
masak anyone oppoed to me merging github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/149 ? 15:11
I've code-reviewed it and it looks good. I'm simply assuming lizmat++ has spectested it.
lizmat I don't put in pull requests unless I spectested then
masak right.
PerlJam lizmat++
lizmat I will mention that in the future 15:12
masak lizmat: I won't ask "did you spectest" any more, since you seem to always do that.
dalek kudo/nom: 5e360a6 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Any.pm:
Make :exists and :delete up to spec

The :exists and :delete adverbial pairs on hash accesses were always interpreted as "true". Which makes constructs as :!exists or :delete($really) not work.
kudo/nom: 8c30c2e | (Carl Mäsak)++ | src/core/Any.pm:
Merge pull request #149 from lizmat/adverbialexistsdelete

Make :exists and :delete up to spec
FROGGS looks like parrot has no autoflush either -.- 15:16
lizmat I guess I'm doing too many pull requests: there's also #145..148, 150, 152 :-)
dalek d: 0336087 | larry++ | STD.pm6:
add warning for .kv after subscript
moritz lizmat: no, we are too slow to process them 15:17
15:18 sivoais left
lizmat while we were on the matter of combining adverbial pairs, what is the feeling about :p:delete actually deleting *and* returning pairs ? 15:19
15:19 sivoais joined, rindolf left, rindolf joined
moritz +1 15:20
masak I have no qualms against any of those combinations between :delete and other things.
:delete:exists can be useful, too.
lizmat that would not work
masak this is the nice thing about adverbial pairs. they can do many things at once. and quite readably/naturally, too, if you ask me.
why not?
TimToady as long as performance dosn't suffer, I'm okay with it
lizmat :delete is specced to return the value (or the pair in case of :p) while :exists is specced to return boolean 15:21
masak lizmat: oh, I was simply assuming that the :exists return value wins, but the deletion still happens.
TimToady well, if it's dispatching to a different method, it can return something different too
masak lizmat: similarly with :delete:p, the :p return value wins. 15:22
TimToady we might want to relax the rule that there can only be one subscript on :exists though, if we wanted a vector of bools back
lizmat that is what is specced: a vector of bools
masak: good point
masak TimToady: I thought that's... what lizmat said.
Niecza already does that, fwiw.
moritz
.oO( lizmat lecturing TimToady about the specs! Yay! )
 15:23
lizmat #150 would bring it up to spec
masak looks at #150
TimToady S02:2497 says :exists may not have multiple subscripts
masak looks 15:24
pmichaud lizmat: just for clarification... sub xyz(:$delete!) { ... } means "is the delete adverb present" without making any test of its boolean-ness.
masak TimToady: oh, I wrote that.
TimToady: github.com/perl6/specs/commit/3018...03922ebc96 15:25
lizmat S32/Containers:680 "If a slice is specified by the subscript, a C<Parcel> of C<Bool> is returned, which can be processed using junctions." 15:26
pmichaud heh. Yes, we're now arguing for "slice semantics" for :exists :)
TimToady the specs collapse into a black hole
masak TimToady: I remember finding use cases where people assumed 'all' semantics, and use cases where people assumed 'any' semantics. and it all felt so weird because that's what we have junctions for. 15:27
pmichaud as opposed to any or all semantics.
masak TimToady: I think I still stand by that notion.
pmichaud (%h{@a}:exists).any # any semantics
15:27 sivoais left
pmichaud (%h{@a}:exists).all # all semantics 15:27
or, even naturally as all %h{@a}:exists 15:28
masak *nod*
yeah, that works.
I'm for it, I think.
TimToady well, a slice of two or more would always be true
the Q is whether it should just be erroneous
or whether we should hold their hand 15:29
15:29 sivoais joined
pmichaud TimToady: that confused me. 15:29
TimToady if we want the chainsaw power, we have to allow people to saw off their limbs accidentally
Texans should understand about chainsaws... 15:30
pmichaud I don't understand "a slice of two or more would always be true"
TimToady oh, wait, that was on purpose... :)
r: say so (False,False)
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«True␤»
pmichaud ah.
r: say so any (False,False) 15:31
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«False␤»
pmichaud okay.
TimToady .[@slice]:exists can return (False,False), basically
if we allow slicing
pmichaud thanks for the clarification, I understand now.
I'm still not fully into p6-think after the trip yet, and I'm several weeks out of discussions
TimToady
.oO(does the CoC say anything about Texas Chainsaws?)
 15:32
pmichaud
.oO(and would it apply to conferences held in Texas?)
lizmat only when threatened to be used
on somebody else
pmichaud wonders what characters/glyphs should be used for the "chainsaw operator"
you know we have to have one, now.
TimToady
.oO(pmichaud is still thinking robotically...)
pmichaud I'm thinking LEGO-ly. 15:33
dalek kudo/nom: 267c54c | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Any.pm:
Allow slice with :exists adverb on hashes

For some reason a "die" was here, whereas the spec says it should return a Parcel of Bool.
masak lizmat: please check that; I had to do a local conflict resolve.
TimToady pmichaud: then you must LEGO of your preconceptions
masak free your MindStorm. 15:34
TimToady don't be a brick
lizmat the conflict is because #148 is not done yet...
masak lizmat: oh! you said #149 :( 15:35
lizmat 148 is something else :-)
masak anyway, I'm assuming I got it right unless you say otherwise.
arnsholt It's good lizmat is hacking on Rakudo, 'cause I think the rest of us are busy making puns =D 15:36
pmichaud picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/c6ou...directlink
TimToady lizmat: so it's okay to cut someone up with a chainsaw as long as they don't feel threatened? :)
15:37 sivoais left 15:38 gdey left
lizmat TimToady: only if they consent 15:38
15:38 sivoais joined
masak chainsawing without asking is such a faux pas. 15:38
15:39 rindolf left
arnsholt Wow. Running a program in gdb with the record option is really, really, really slow 15:39
arnsholt idly wonders which is slower of gdb with record or valgrind
15:39 rindolf joined 15:42 domidumont1 joined 15:43 kaleem left
TimToady std: .[].kv 15:43
camelia std 0336087: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Suspicious .kv after subscript; to suppress this warning, use :kv or \.kv instead at /tmp/9LENy8Kvh2 line 1:␤------> .[]⏏.kv␤ok 00:00 42m␤»
arlinius rss 15:44
lizmat TimToady++
arlinius oops, sorry
TimToady looks for that chainsaw glyph
(to use on the backlog)
masak arlinius: I hear it's all Atom these days, though. except that Google Reader is shutting down. :/ 15:46
15:46 domidumont left
moritz and Germany shuts down its Atomkraftwerke :-) 15:46
Su-Shee masak: I basically moved away from any google service.
moritz: well if we've had RSSkraftwerke...
moritz (for some stupid reason, Germans usually talk about 'atom' instead of 'nuclear' power plants) 15:47
15:47 sivoais left
moritz Su-Shee: :-) 15:47
lizmat with :exists now returning a Parcel of Bool, I guess S02:2497 needs to be amended.
but I'm at a loss for a wording there
clkao 0o^W^W^W/win 21
15:48 sivoais joined
TimToady lizmat: feel free to amend it 15:48
masak clkao: thanks for stopping by! enjoy windows 21! :P
window*
clkao heh 15:49
15:49 kaare_ joined
masak afk & 15:49
lizmat TimToady: will have a go at it
15:50 domidumont1 left
TimToady on users mis-inferring any/all, we have the same problem with 'when @foo', so I think people will just have to learn the hard way 15:50
PerlJam heh. "suspicious .kv" I like that wording. :) 15:52
15:52 domidumont joined 15:53 domidumont left 15:55 risou is now known as risou_awy, risou_awy is now known as risou 15:56 domidumont joined, sivoais left
lizmat TimToady: I think I have to learn "when @foo" the hard way myself still 15:56
15:57 sivoais joined
tadzik Su-Shee: (google services), well, they're closing (closed?) xmpp recently, so probably gmail is going to be closed to other smtp servers soon too ;) 15:59
16:01 rindolf left, rindolf joined
Su-Shee tadzik: I'm using gmail only for junk emailadresses anyways. 16:02
tadzik I also have an account linked to android phone. I should really deprecate the regular gmail, since I have a separate (paid) account for over 2 years now 16:05
16:05 hypolin left 16:06 sivoais left, daxim left, saxx11 joined, sivoais joined
Su-Shee tadzik: well I started using my nokia N9 again and will buy a geekphone soon, so that's the android issue. :) 16:07
tadzik Su-Shee: yeah, I know. It's just that I didn's see any smartphone I wanted on the market, so I bought a cheap android. "It can't be that bad!"
well, it can.
and since fx has this annoying "why turn off your apps?" trait too, I don't think I'd want it either 16:08
I'll wait for jolla with hw keyboard :)
Su-Shee tadzik: have you seen the new jolla? 16:09
tadzik yes. It has no hw keyboard
16:09 prevost joined
tadzik which, by my standards, make it a pretty useless toy 16:09
Su-Shee I'm pretty sure there won't be any phone with hw keyboards anymore ;)
tadzik although the os is very nice
Su-Shee the phone is beautiful. :)
tadzik I think there will be, the old ceo of jolla implied that too 16:10
"there's a market for business oriented phones" (speaking of hw keyboards)
gosh, when did I become a business person
FROGGS github is down
tadzik status.github.com/
lizmat that went from minor to major in 2 mins 16:12
16:13 risou is now known as risou_awy 16:14 zby_home_ joined 16:15 sivoais left 16:16 sivoais joined
lizmat masak: seems sivoais needs to be kicked here as well 16:17
16:18 ChanServ sets mode: +o masak 16:19 hypolin joined, masak sets mode: +b sivoais!~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais, sivoais was kicked by masak (sivoais)), ChanServ sets mode: -o masak, FROGGS left
lizmat r: say any <a b c> 16:20
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«any(a, b, c)␤»
lizmat r: say so any <a b c> # does this make any sense at all? 16:21
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«True␤»
masak TimToady: re 'the hard way': in some sense learning what the semantics should be for 'when @foo' was hard for Perl 6 the spec (and its authors) as well, not just the users. smartmatching was very helped by doing a few turns in the whirlpool.
lizmat: sure it does.
r: say so any (False, False, False)
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«False␤»
masak lizmat: you just need to pass in values that can be falsy :) 16:22
lizmat ok, maybe I wasn't clear
masak r: say so "lizmat" eq any <moritz TimToady pmichaud>
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«False␤»
masak r: say so "lizmat" eq any <moritz TimToady lizmat pmichaud>
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«True␤»
lizmat I meant *exactly* "any <a b c>" as part of %h{ any <a b c> }:exists 16:23
16:23 rindolf left, rindolf joined
lizmat I guess this means auto-threading the :exists on the given keys then 16:24
16:24 Su-Shee left
lizmat and "any %h<a b c>:exists" wouldn't do that ? 16:24
well, I guess it would, but it would have had to look up all keys specified in the hash 16:25
first before being able to auto-thread, right?
16:25 REPLeffect left
PerlJam Junction-as-subscript doesn't make sense to me, but I don't quite have the junction-fu that others have. 16:26
masak lizmat: I think under the new spec (where :exists works on slices), both variants work. 16:28
lizmat: the %h{ any <a b c> }:exists variant passes a junction to .{}, which promptly autothreads. 16:29
lizmat: the any %h<a b c>:exists variant returns a vector of Bool, which gets stuffed in an any junction.
lizmat but differently from other contexts, it would have to do *all* alternatives to be able to return a Parcel of Bool
masak junctions always do. 16:30
at least you're not allowed to assume they don't.
timotimo tadzik: don't forget to pull in the newest File::Tools into panda and panda2
masak junctions are hyper, not lazy.
dagurval r: my %h = <a 1>; say ~%h<d>:delete;
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«Unexpected named parameter 'delete' passed␤ in sub prefix:<~> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1271␤ in block at /tmp/KEJtJd7URf:1␤␤»
tadzik timotimo: thanks, I'll try to remember :)
masak hyper as in "1e6 computation nodes in hyperspace may distributedly handle this task" :P 16:31
lizmat masak: I thought the idea of "any" would be that it could disregard any alternatives as soon as it found the first True one ?
masak lizmat: no, you're thinking of something else. 16:32
maybe reduction with [||], which shortcuts.
short-circuits* 16:33
lizmat: or, I should say, the optimizer is allowed to make the junction code as efficient as it pleases, including short-circuiting. (as long as it doesn't get caught.)
PerlJam lizmat: that version of any sounds like what you'd get from List::MoreUtils. 16:34
masak but there isn't the *assumption* in junctions that they will short-circuit.
16:34 REPLeffect joined
lizmat ok. so it is considered a compiler optimization... 16:34
ok, I can live with that :-) 16:35
timotimo in very specific cases, junctions already will short-circuit
lizmat (or rather, run-time optimization)
timotimo r: sub gen() { say "generated a value"; True }; if True == gen | gen | gen | gen | gen { say "yay" }; 16:36
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Missing block␤at /tmp/ENgjmJJpfZ:1␤------> en | gen | gen | gen | gen { say "yay" }⏏;␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ statement end␤ statement modifier␤ statement modifier loop␤ ho…
16:36 Chillance joined
timotimo er, whoops? 16:36
16:36 SmokeMac_ joined
timotimo r: sub gen() { say "generated a value"; True }; if True == gen() | gen() | gen() | gen() | gen() { say "yay" }; 16:36
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«generated a value␤yay␤»
timotimo r: sub gen() { say "generated a value"; True }; if gen() | gen() | gen() | gen() | gen() { say "yay" };
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«generated a value␤generated a value␤generated a value␤generated a value␤generated a value␤yay␤»
timotimo hm, actually that could be optimized, too
16:37 rindolf left
ingy r: a-b = 42 16:37
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix = instead␤at /tmp/KAo2Rda9e2:1␤------> a-b =⏏ 42␤»
16:37 SmokeMachine left, rindolf joined
timotimo ingy: needs a "my" 16:38
and a sigil
or a-b must be a function that returns an lvalue
PerlJam timotimo: but what would %h{any <a b c>} mean? is it the same as "any %h<a b c>" ? If so, why evan allow the former?
ingy r: my $a-b = 42
camelia rakudo a134b1: ( no output )
PerlJam s/evan/even/
ingy r: my $a-b = 42; say $a-b
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«42␤»
timotimo PerlJam: it will compute to the same value, doesn't make it necessary to forbid one
PerlJam: "what would 5 + 5 mean? is it the same as 10? if so, why even allow the former?" is almost the same statement 16:39
jnthn evening, ##perl6
ingy just added - to pegex identifiers
PerlJam timotimo: maybe. Still, junctions-as-subscript seem ... weird.
ingy they compile to _, which is necessary
jnthn wow, this train wifi is dubious..
lizmat PerlJam: the way I read it, "%h{ any <a b c> } :exists" in a boolean context, would allow the runtime to skip testing of existence for keys as soon as it found one
ingy hi jnthn 16:40
masak jnthn! \o/
timotimo i don't see why it would be weird. i can use junction as any value and it will hopefully autothread
lizmat PerlJam: "any %h<a b c>:exists" would have to create a boolean for each key checked, and then autothread on that result
16:40 spider-mario joined
lizmat for large hashes, and large sets of keys, %h{ any <a b c> }:exists in boolean context, could be a big win 16:41
PerlJam maybe I just have "junctions" somehow hard-wired to "boolean context" in my brain.
16:42 GlitchMr left, dmol joined
lizmat PerlJam: well, yes, without the :exists adverb, it would presumably just check the key 16:42
timotimo r: say ("PerlJam" | "Timo") ~ " loves junctions" == "Timo loves junctions" 16:43
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '⏏PerlJam loves junctions' (indicated by ⏏)␤ in method Numeric at src/gen/CORE.setting:10055␤ in sub infix:<==> at src/gen/CORE.setting:3023␤ in sub infix:<==> at src/gen/CORE…
timotimo r: say ("PerlJam" | "Timo") ~ " loves junctions" eq "Timo loves junctions"
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«any(False, True)␤»
PerlJam lizmat: what does "check the key" mean?
lizmat check the existence of the key
PerlJam lizmat: without the :exists?
lizmat ah, no *with* the exists, without the :exists it would check booleannes of the key, presumably? 16:44
16:44 GlitchMr joined
lizmat which would not make a lot of sense 16:44
timotimo r: say ("Perl Jam" & "Timo") ~ (" foo" | " bar") # :P
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«all(any(Perl Jam foo, Perl Jam bar), any(Timo foo, Timo bar))␤»
timotimo hm, this could use some quotes 16:45
lizmat r: say (("Perl Jam" & "Timo") ~ (" foo" | " bar")).perl
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«all(any("Perl Jam foo", "Perl Jam bar"), any("Timo foo", "Timo bar"))␤»
PerlJam just %h{any <a b c>} by itself is just another junction. The unobserved state of a maybe-dead/maybe-live cat.
lizmat timtimo: that was just .gist 16:46
"any <a b c>" with the exact string "<a b c>" would be an alive cat at compile time
or am I wrong? 16:48
lizmat may have different ideas about junctions than what is implemented / specced in Perl 6
16:49 gdey joined
timotimo oke 16:49
PerlJam I think the difficulty I'm having is that junctions require a verb to be "observed", but "subscript" or "slice", though verby, still doesn't produce an observation unless and until you add an adverb.
timotimo lizmat: it could be compile-time-evaluated to Any(a, b, c, d), indeed
PerlJam: it doesn't observe, it mutates, like any(...) + 5
lizmat: if it's in boolean context, like if any(<a b c d>), it could be evaluated to True, sure 16:50
PerlJam lizmat: any <a b c> is still a cat of indeterminant disposition. 16:51
16:51 GlitchMr left 16:54 ajr_ left, sdgvf_ left
lizmat timotimo, PerlJam: ok, you're right. I was just thinking boolean context. In any other context I guess you cannot tell whether the cat is alive or dead :-) 16:55
timotimo right, since the deadness/aliveness is actually a boolean value ;) 16:57
at least definite deadness/aliveness is
PerlJam so back to %h{any <a b c>}:exists ... to me the intent of "any %h<a b c>:exists" is clearer than the other 16:59
16:59 dakkar left
masak PerlJam: I can see that. 16:59
PerlJam: would you be bothered by both working?
PerlJam I dunno. right now I seem to be bothered by junctions as subscripts 17:00
lizmat then use that, by all means, but %h{any <a b c>}:exists may give better performance on large hashes / sets of keys
potentially, if the runtime supports it
17:00 GlitchMr joined
lizmat at least the way I understand things :-) 17:00
PerlJam What would %h{ any <a b c> }:delete do? 17:02
timotimo it would autothread to delete each of the keys - but depending on the outer context, an optimizer might short-circuit after the first True it gets!
masak but do not assume that an optimizer will do this.
lizmat ah, but that would be catching the optimizer! 17:03
masak and since this has a side effect, it's your fault, the user's, if it does.
lizmat optimizer may only optimize when it doesn't get caught, right?
masak Perl 6 does not have a notion of what has a side effect and what doesn't.
and in either case, reasoning about such things is Halting Problem complete.
timotimo indeed 17:04
17:04 FROGGS joined
PerlJam timotimo: and I suppose the same answer applies to %h{any <a b c>}:k and %h{any <a b c>}:v and :p ? 17:04
17:04 rindolf left
timotimo sure 17:04
17:04 rindolf joined
timotimo r: my %h = (1, 2, 3, 4) Z=> <a b c d>; say %h{any(1, 2, 3)}:k; say %h{any(1, 2, 3)}:v; 17:05
camelia rakudo a134b1: OUTPUT«any(1, 2, 3)␤any(a, b, c)␤»
17:07 GlitchMr left 17:08 GlitchMr joined, gdey_ joined
PerlJam So ... if I reject the notion of the optimizer short-circuiting Junctions based on truthiness, I think I'm warming up to junctions as subscripts :) 17:11
masak \o/ 17:12
lizmat fwiw, the examples in S02:2492 all are in a boolean context
masak I basically only use junctions in a boolean, fairly static context. 17:13
17:13 gdey left
masak I only have one use case where I don't. 17:13
(I once stored an and-junction of two regex objects in a hash table. easier than writing one single, more complicated, regex)
17:16 ajr joined 17:17 ajr is now known as Guest67735
PerlJam I assume that junctionizes $/ and its captures when you use the junction of multiple regex. 17:17
17:17 Guest67735 is now known as ajr_
timotimo that would seem sensible at first glance at least 17:20
hm, actually, no, how would that work?
dalek : 7490b31 | (Tobias Leich)++ | lib/Perl5/Terms.pm:
add infix ||=
: f323dd8 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (4 files):
add (not yet working) autoflush $|
colomon how would it .... what timotimo said
timotimo i fear autothreading would just set $/ to the last thing that was evaluated
PerlJam notes that Junction does not appear in the table for the smart match op :)
masak PerlJam: I was only interested in the boolean value, so collapsed the junction.
timotimo where is that?
masak PerlJam: but it did work.
ooh, I remembered where I used it even: strangelyconsistent.org/blog/some-p...statistics 17:21
source code here: gist.github.com/masak/158336
lines 15..22
17:24 rindolf left, rindolf joined
masak they're used on L34, in an if statement which only cares about the boolean collapsed result. 17:26
17:26 gudahtt left, yoleaux left, fhelmberger left
PerlJam lunch & 17:26
timotimo that's a pretty simple solution actually. cool. 17:27
17:27 prammer left
lizmat seems network problems, we lost yoleaux 17:27
17:27 GlitchMr left, yoleaux joined, dpk left
timotimo [<alpha>*\d]**2 <alpha> - lines like these might have benefitted from the % operator, no? 17:28
colomon rn: my $r = /<alpha>/ & /<digit>/; say "a" ~~ $r; say "a9" ~~ $r
camelia rakudo 267c54, niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«False␤True␤»
masak timotimo: yeah. this is fours years ago. 17:29
17:29 davidpk joined
timotimo ah, ok :) 17:29
17:30 s1n left
lizmat dinner& 17:30
17:30 gdey_ left 17:31 gdey joined
masak and, though infix:<**> filled that role back then, it appears I didn't see that option. 17:31
maybe I was building things incrementally and this just made the most sense. I dunno.
17:31 davidpk is now known as dpk
timotimo i feel kind of like it would have been better to .comb for non-alnums and count the result than to make a regex that alternates non-alnums with alnums 17:33
masak oh, feel free to write a better solution as you concieve it, and post it here. might be interesting. 17:34
colomon would be interesting, definitely. 17:35
masak in fact, I feel tempted to write a new version myself, too. 17:36
of course, I no longer have the original data...
17:40 yoleaux left
masak nvm, found it. 17:41
17:41 yoleaux joined 17:42 gdey left 17:43 stevan_ left 17:44 rindolf left 17:45 rindolf joined
dalek rl6-roast-data: ed9214f | coke++ | p (2 files):
today (automated commit)
 17:48
17:50 bowtie left, gdey joined, gudahtt joined 17:53 gudahtt left 17:57 gdey left 17:58 stevan_ joined 18:11 rindolf left, rindolf joined 18:12 stevan_ left, GlitchMr joined
masak rn: my $rx = 'a+'; say 'aaa' ~~ /^ $rx $/; say 'aaa' ~~ /^ <$rx> $/ 18:14
camelia rakudo 267c54, niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«Nil␤｢aaa｣␤␤» 18:15
masak ah.
18:16 stevan__ joined 18:17 grondilu joined
masak modern version: gist.github.com/masak/5622039 18:21
10 lines shorter, and IMO more readable.
doesn't run in Rakudo, though. :/
jnthn Why not? 18:23
oh, the ** {$n+1} thing 18:24
masak yeah, and the "get_attr_str() not implemented in class 'Coroutine'" error 18:27
for some reason. 18:28
18:30 japhb_ joined
sorear o/ 18:31
masak sorear! \o/
18:33 rindolf left
masak sorear: all finitely generated abelian groups are products of cyclic groups Z_{p^n}, p prime, and at most one Z. that's freaky. :) 18:33
18:33 rindolf joined
masak I was idly doodling group structures today when I discovered it. "hey, wait a minute... they're all cycles!" 18:33
18:35 stevan__ left
japhb_ "I was idly doodling group structures today"... 18:35
:-)
masak what? :P 18:36
some of the p6cc problems have come about by me idly doodling at $work meetings... :) 18:37
jnthn hah, I should pay moe attention to your doodlings :P 18:38
masak :)
when tadzik and I were vacationing in Białowieża two years back, I was doodling Platonic solids. 18:39
jnthn: replaced {$n+1} with precalculated variable $n1. gist.github.com/masak/5622039 -- that should work already, no? 18:41
grondilu camelia: multi postfix:<++>(int $n is rw) { $n = $n + 1 }; my int $n = 0; $n++; say $n; 18:43
rn: multi postfix:<++>(int $n is rw) { $n = $n + 1 }; my int $n = 0; $n++; say $n;
camelia rakudo 267c54: OUTPUT«0␤»
..niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤In parameter declaration, typename 'int' must be predeclared (or marked as declarative with :: prefix) at /tmp/fSJmQ6iEYm line 1:␤------> multi postfix:<++>(int⏏ $n is rw) { $n = $n + 1 }; my int $n = ␤␤Pa…
masak Niecza doesn't have 'int' yet. 18:44
jnthn masak: It's any non-litreal with ** that is NYI. If we could support ** $n already, the closure form would be easy. 18:45
masak: It's extending the regex engine to handle not knowing those counts up front that is the tricky task.
masak oh :/ 18:46
yeah, then that patch doesn't help.
PerlJam masak: just use macros ;) 18:47
masak :P
moritz I guess it has to delay the compilation until it knows the number of repetitions
masak yeah.
at least if we want it to be an NFA.
jnthn I'm...not sure we can do that... 18:48
masak and not, say, a <?{ ... }> condition.
jnthn I wasn't thinking of it ever being declarative.
Except perhaps in the case of compile time constants.
masak no, maybe declarative is wishful thinking.
jnthn It's just that the quant rule is already one of the most complex ones already, so adding a more dynamic version would be a little fun :) 18:49
masak tell me about it.
always the quant tests failed when I was implementing GGE. all. the. time.
jnthn masak: It's just htat... :P
masak [tell me about it] ** $n 18:50
jnthn Well, could be a good hackathon task...
masak *grins*
sorear masak: you can have more than one Z
masak sorear: yeahbut. isn't Z^n isomorphic to Z? 18:51
nwc10 jnthn: total digression - as to "agressive" optimising of variables, and trying to put them on the stack - surely Perl 6 is a dynamic language, so it's just fine to have a guard clause to project the "fast" version of the code, and keep the slow version around and use it if "OUTER" (or whatever) has been seen. (Or some other flag for "privacy has been violated")
sorear en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_th...sification
masak: no. Z^2 does not have a one-element generating set
masak sorear: was just gonna send you that link.
but yes, I see that you're right. 18:52
ah, and I guess that's where all those funky lattices come from. I was wondering about them.
sorear++
jnthn nwc10: Perl 6 isn't really a dynamic language, it's a gradual one. So "don't be so aggresive" tends to be a pragmatic thing. Especially when it's a lexically scoped thing. 18:53
nwc10: We can detect use of OUTER statically, so that's not an issue.
sorear it's never possible to generate Z^j with i elements, i < j. proof: extend Z^j to the vector space R^j. your i elements span an i-dimensional subspace, so cannot include Z^j which spans the whole space 18:54
jnthn nwc10: The question is if there's anything we can't detect up front that scuppers it. 18:55
masak sorear: still, there's very "few" kinds of abelian groups. I guess the moral is that all the weird stuff is going on over by the non-abelian groups.
s/abelian/finitely-generated abelian/
18:55 berekuk joined
nwc10 jnthn: yes, but I was more meaning that if the code is purposefully compiled as two versions, you can also arrange for the things that you can't detect to always leave a "calling card" by notifiying routines that they need to behave "properly" 18:56
sorear the corresponding proof for topological spaces is much, much harder. 18:57
nwc10 but I am arm waving from a position of (somewhat) ignorance here.
masak sorear: oh, I am not going near topology yet. 18:58
19:02 fhelmberger joined
colomon masak: +1 19:02
sorear it amuses me that "there is no continuous, injective function from R^x to R^y, x > y" is very obvious but has no elementary proof
19:03 fhelmberger left
moritz well, it's not obvious that such a function exists in injective but non-cotinuous 19:04
(until you learn about Peano curves)
colomon does not remember covering Peano curves in topology... 19:07
19:07 rindolf left
masak sorear: that is kinda amusing. 19:08
19:08 rindolf joined
moritz I don't think I had them covered anywhere 19:08
just read about them somewhere
masak sorear: the closest I've ever gotten to topology was starting in on a book about algebraic topology. nice stuff.
19:10 bluescreen100 left 19:12 fhelmberger joined, fhelmberger left, stevan_ joined
colomon 's brain melted in 500-level algebraic topology 19:13
19:13 prammer joined
diakopter 's brain melted in big words 19:14
masak rn: my $n = 2; say 'caaw' ~~ /a ** $n/ 19:16
camelia niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Unsupported use of atom ** $n as separator; nowadays please use atom+ % $n at /tmp/URsZSVaS3U line 1:␤------> my $n = 2; say 'caaw' ~~ /a ** $n⏏/␤␤｢a｣␤␤»
..rakudo 267c54: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Quantifier quantifies nothing␤at /tmp/As4PT3NJzx:1␤------> my $n = 2; say 'caaw' ~~ /a ** ⏏$n/␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix stopper␤ infix or meta-infix␤ prefix or term␤ p…
masak feels both those errors are bogus
masak peruses S05
19:17 bluescreen100 joined
FROGGS shouldnt be too hard to make ** $var work IMO 19:17
sorear what makes the peano curve case so interesting is that they ARE continuous, just in the other direction 19:18
continuous surjection from R to R^2, say
(with no continuous inverse)
19:19 jaldhar left
masak oh, I'm wrong. 19:19
see S05:1030
so no, it shouldn't be too hard, but right now it's outlawed for backward-compatibility reasons.
or perhaps backward-incompatibility reasons, rather. 19:20
rn: my $n = 2; say 'caaw' ~~ /a ** {$n}/
camelia rakudo 267c54: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Quantifier quantifies nothing␤at /tmp/ueHJpM76tG:1␤------> my $n = 2; say 'caaw' ~~ /a ** ⏏{$n}/␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix stopper␤ infix or meta-infix␤ prefix or term␤ …
..niecza v24-51-g009f999: OUTPUT«｢aa｣␤␤»
masak niecza++
PerlJam it's not outlawed; it just warns.
masak PerlJam: but it doesn't mean what I want.
PerlJam: it means % 19:21
PerlJam well, that too :)
masak slight detail :P
FROGGS nqp: my $n := 2; say('caaw' ~~ /a ** {$n}/)
camelia nqp: OUTPUT«Quantifier quantifies nothing at line 2, near " {$n}/)"␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 14721 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:5232) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.nqp:279)␤»
19:22 domidumont left
diakopter camelia: *you* quantify nothing 19:22
19:22 fhelmberger joined 19:23 cooper left, fhelmberger left
FROGGS quantify my hat! 19:23
19:24 cooper joined
masak read 'nqp:' and for one confused moment wondered what implementation 'q' is 19:27
colomon too! 19:28
masak :D
sorear: I have long since come to peace with the R <=> R^2 stuff. I just accept that my intuition will not be worth a lot for infinities. just as some intuitions break down for the number 0. 19:29
19:32 fhelmberger joined, fhelmberger left
lizmat so, do we have a way now, conceptually or otherwise, to find out the type of a typed hash? 19:33
I would really like to change the .perl of Hashes to include .hash( :keytype(Any), :of(Int) ) if the hash was created with "my Int %h{Any}"
dalek kudo-star-daily: 951a728 | coke++ | log/ (5 files):
today (automated commit)
 19:34
lizmat so that we could start thinking of roundtripping typed hashes
[Coke] modules/perl6-File-Tools now failing tests.
timotimo oh no, the only change was the thing i did :o 19:35
does it relate to rm_rf?
[Coke] github.com/coke/rakudo-star-daily/...s.log#L155
yup.
SMOKE!
timotimo indeed, a .IO seems to be missing 19:36
pullrequest'd 19:37
19:37 tgt left
timotimo thanks, coke 19:37
masak [Coke]++ 19:39
Util #ps time; any p6'ers need to come for GSoC matters? Backlog: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrotsketch/2013-05-21
19:40 SamuraiJack_ joined 19:41 fhelmberger joined
arnsholt crosses his fingers 19:43
I may have discovered the absolutely bone-headed reason for the NativeCall callback segfaults
moritz arnsholt: do tell
arnsholt Too early to tell (compiling for test now), but it might be a non-zeroed array 19:44
19:44 fhelmberger left
PerlJam arnsholt++ (whether you found it or not, you've at least been looking :) 19:44
masak hm, why have I never heard about en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject-orie...rogramming before?
I wonder how close this notion is to that of roles. 19:45
arnsholt But the culprit may be essentially this: malloc(num_args > 0? num_args*sizeof(void *) : 1)
masak queues up the paper for his copious spare time
arnsholt The 1 because malloc(0) is illegal
Of course that one pointer is never initialized
[Coke] masak: now I just need to make it more automated. :P 19:46
PerlJam seems like it would have been better to have left the pointer null than to malloc anything :)
arnsholt It might be that we mark that uninitialized pointer as alive
I don't see why we should do that, but we might
Shouldn't happen, but it's worth looking into 19:47
19:47 zby_home_ left
masak actually, subjects seem like a notion dual to roles. interesting. 19:48
19:49 andrew12 is now known as ANDREW12
lizmat masak: thinking about :delete :exists, what would :delete :!exists mean, perhaps in combination with :!p 19:51
or is this getting too magical at all and we shouldn't think about combining adverbs except in the case where they clearly make sense ? 19:52
:!p returning pairs for *all* given keys, even if they don't exist
arnsholt *sigh* No beans
lizmat (:p filters out the ones that don't exist) 19:53
arnsholt Back to debugging
PerlJam lizmat: I tend to be conservative on these matters (if that counts for anything). I'd like to be very explicit about what makes sense, what doesn't and what's been left for the future.
19:54 fhelmberger joined
masak lizmat: what PerlJam said. but I have no problem with immediately assigning meaning to :delete :!exists either. 19:56
19:56 fhelmberger left
lizmat I could actually see a use for :delete:k as well :-) 19:57
masak lizmat: it would simply mean "delete all the supplied keys. return whether they weren't there to begin with, as a vector of Bool"
s/they weren't there/each wasn't there/
lizmat so simple notting the bool values that would otherwise have been returned with :delete :exists ? 19:58
this is starting to feel like smart match in p5 again :-) 19:59
dalek ast: f95307c | dagurval++ | S32-io/spurt.t:
Added tests for spurt
ast: a95a3c3 | dagurval++ | TODO:
removed spurt from TODO
20:06 fhelmberger joined 20:07 fhelmberger left
lizmat is glad to see masak on Hallway++ as well 20:08
colomon masak: you coming to YAPC::NA
?
lizmat I hope so: www.yapcna.org/yn2013/talk/4774 :-) 20:11
colomon \o/
Is the liz going to his talk you? 20:13
PerlJam lizmat: he could be giving the talk via one of those telepresence robots ;)
colomon is looking forward to meeting a bunch of p6ers he's not met in person before!
lizmat or one of his clones
although I'm pretty sure moritz is not coming to YAPC::NA
arnsholt colomon: Likewise! 20:14
lizmat too
masak colomon: I am coming. I am looking forward to meeting you also.
and a bunch of other NAers I have never met in meatspace.
sorear I'm coming 20:15
colomon: is this your first yapc?
colomon sorear: my third
sorear lizmat: wait, do I have to register for hallway++?
lizmat registration was by putting a sticker on your shirt, at least last year 20:16
mst will probably have stickers
20:16 fhelmberger joined
lizmat it's the second YAPC::NA for me, so I'm still a VIP :-) 20:16
mst sorear: wait, did you even read the blog post? :D 20:17
PerlJam It'll be my second YAPC too. (the first was 5 years ago)
colomon The VIP thing was actually very confusing to me the first year. :)
"Wait. I'm a VIP but pmichaud isn't?!?"
20:17 fhelmberger left
colomon masak, lizmat, arnsholt, sorear, oh my! :D 20:18
sorear mst: I did, I got the impression that I "registered" by writing Hallway++ on my badge with a sharpie 20:19
mst sorear: correct
sorear: but there'll be stickers too
sorear which made me wonder how lizmat *knew* masak was doing it
mst err, because he mailed the list saying ++ to it
colomon sorear: e-mail
sorear then I saw his reply on the mailing list, which moots this
mst and/or added himself to the HWPPPeople wiki page
colomon is kind of hoping for a Hallway++ he can turn off.
PerlJam colomon: put it on the back side of your badge. 20:20
lizmat colomon: multiple stickers?
colomon PerlJam: I was just thinking I needed a button
I'll figure something out to let me go introvert when/if needed. 20:24
tadzik colomon: looking forward to meeting you too :) 20:25
colomon tadzik! \o/
PerlJam Is there going to be a #perl6 BOF?
colomon thought there was going to be a massive #perl6 hackathon... 20:26
tadzik it's like a family reunion
I only regret that I'll be there for such a short time
sorear imagines tadzik dropping by for a few seconds 20:27
20:27 fhelmberger joined
Tene Hmm. I should try to work out a plan to go to yapc::na this year 20:27
dalek ast: a00ed4d | dagurval++ | S32-io/spurt.t:
re-wrote spurt tests, DRY
PerlJam Tene: it's like in 2 weeks, better get crackin' 20:28
colomon less than 2 weeks now 20:29
tadzik sorear: I convinced the airline to lower me on a rope, so I'll say a quick "hi" and they pull me back to the clouds ;)
PerlJam tadzik: but you'll be zipping by at a few hundred miles an hour
tadzik PerlJam: yeah, that'll be a short visit 20:30
20:30 fhelmberger left
tadzik I'll have to resist high-fives, or I may harm someone 20:30
PerlJam careful they don't smack you into a building
masak Tene: yes, please work out a plan. would really like to meet you! 20:31
sorear PerlJam: they can unspool the rope to lower the ground speed, or possibly fly as slow as possible against the jet stream
Tene: what masak said.
diakopter re: jet stream, that'd be a long rope 20:32
PerlJam yeah, I imagine that a good bit of the airplane would be taken up by the rope
(at least until they lext tadzik down to say "hi") 20:33
20:33 kaare_ left
PerlJam s/lext/let/ 20:33
sorear maybe tadzik's flight is a dirigible.
arnsholt Zeppelins! 20:34
A fleet of Polish zeppelins crossing the Atlantic
tadzik oh, you thought it'd be an airplane? No, heck, would that be dangerous... 20:35
arnsholt Now -that's- going to YAPC in style =)
Tene It's probably a bit too late for me to find something cheap enough, but I've actually been feeling well enough and don't have anything else planned then
PerlJam until the US military shoots them down.
Tene: where are you travelling from?
Tene PerlJam: Sunnyvale, California 20:36
sorear hey, if they could reach the challenger deep with a sounding line in 1875, I'm sure they can do something today
probably closer to austin than I am 20:37
20:40 saxx11 left 20:44 tgt joined 20:46 splitcells joined
splitcells How good do you think the development of perl 6 is? 20:48
20:49 estrabd left 20:50 estrabd joined
diakopter splitcells: well 20:51
splitcells why?
dalek ecs: 7883bce | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S02-bits.pod:
Some clarifications on using adverbs with subscripts

Please consider this a draft, a discussion piece if you will. I simply got inspired by irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-05-21#i_7098764		 20:52
jnthn If the majority of dev teams I went to did testing to the level Perl 6 dev does, cared for reviewing commits the same way, and dug deep into problems to get to the heart of them to the degree Perl 6 folks do, they'd probably be in a better place. 20:53
20:56 wooden joined, wooden left, wooden joined
splitcells What is the estimated time (or time range) until perl 6 specs, testsuite and a compiler gonna be 'ready' ? 20:56
lizmat I think the standard answer is "Christmas" 20:58
splitcells yeah
masak splitcells: in some sense, we're all wanting to answer that question. a number of factors make it difficult to estimate. 20:59
splitcells how about a time range ? 2-4 years? 5-10?
1-2?
masak splitcells: it might be a consolation to know, though, that it feels like we are converging, and we're working actively to actually nail down the spec.
splitcells: it depends on your definition of 'ready'.
jnthn Depends what "ready" means, but realistically I feel we're still a couple of years from the point where I'll feel comfortable saying, "you can use this for most things you want to do now".
splitcells ready ^= "you can use this for most things you want to do now" 21:00
colomon and you can already use it quite nicely for some things.
masak splitcells: I've been using Rakudo productively since 2008. it's rough sometimes, but it also works for a lot of things.
colomon is some sense the biggest current limitation is that it is pretty slow. for tasks which are small but twisty, it works quite nicely. 21:01
*in some sense
masak there is already an expressivity which rivals Perl 5 in many respects. I love to think in Perl 6. 21:02
and I'm talking about the implemented bits, not just the things that are still dreams in the spec.
21:02 skids left
splitcells whichcompiler do you use? rakudo? 21:03
masak 99% of the time, yeah.
splitcells is there thread support?
masak mumbles
splitcells: see ttjjss.wordpress.com/2012/12/22/th...do-perl-6/ 21:04
colomon splitcells: for instance, I'm using it to process ABC music files. I've got a 100-linep6 grammar which understands them, a series of classes to represent the musical notes, and several handy applications for it. It's a natural fit for the language, and because *big* ABC files are measured in K, not M or G, both Rakudo and Niecza are more than adequately fast. 21:05
splitcells ty
jnthn has high hopes for Rakudo getting good thread support on the JVM backend. 21:06
'cus threads there are very well exercised in the real world already.
colomon splitcells: on the other hand, I've also got a grammar for parsing STEP CAD files. It works well enough for 1M files, but is unusably slow on the 1G files I sometimes need to deal with.
masak splitcells: I'm using Rakudo and a 256-line script to power my blog. have been since 2010. 21:08
splitcells: this weekend, I'll be giving a talk about how to reduce the 256-script to 25 lines ;)
256-line script* 21:09
(and increase readability significantly in the process)
splitcells speed?
masak it's a static web site. no dynamic content. 21:10
my entire blog generates in ~4 minutes. but I seldom need to generate all of it. usually takes a minute or so to generate the new content.
splitcells ~4 minutes on both scripts? 21:11
masak oh, I don't have timing data on the new script yet.
21:16 spider-mario left 21:21 SamuraiJack_ left 21:36 ANDREW12 is now known as andrew12
timotimo 25 lines is kind of on the short side, isn't it? 21:45
lizmat it's not a one-liner, that's for sure!
21:46 SamuraiJack_ joined 21:47 prevost left
timotimo maybe it's now almost completely data driven? 21:48
it will just eval each blog post in turn :P 21:49
dalek ecs: f868fd3 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S02-bits.pod:
Small clarification in subscript adverbs

After masak++ made me think about it more
21:51 stevan_ left 21:58 kurahaupo joined 21:59 prevost joined 22:03 lustlife left
lizmat goodnight #perl6! 22:07
22:08 REPLeffect left 22:10 gtodd left 22:11 bluescreen100 left 22:12 dmol left
colomon o/ 22:13
splitcells o\ 22:14
22:19 raiph left
jnthn 'night o/ 22:21
diakopter o/ 22:22
masak 'night, #perl6 22:24
22:28 stevan_ joined, SamuraiJack__ joined 22:29 SamuraiJack_ left 22:34 rindolf left 22:41 REPLeffect joined 22:42 skids joined 22:43 SamuraiJack__ left 22:45 PacoAir left
[Coke] yawn 22:54
s
22:57 tgt left 22:58 SamuraiJack__ joined 23:02 tgt joined 23:03 BenGoldberg joined 23:05 vm joined 23:16 vm left 23:19 PacoAir joined 23:28 Chillance left 23:31 tgt left 23:39 gdey joined 23:44 gdey left 23:47 splitcells left 23:52 BenGoldberg left 23:53 SamuraiJack__ left 23:54 SamuraiJack__ joined 23:56 ajr_ left

Powered by Cro and the Raku® Programming Language.

Please report any issues / comments / feature requests as an issue on App::Raku::Log.

Thank you!