»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 25 June 2013.
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dalek ast: 0e0bc7d | (Solomon Foster)++ | S32-str/capitalize.t:
Test wordcase with dashes and apostrophes.
 03:08
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sorear good * #perl6 03:26
yoleaux 3 Jul 2013 18:17Z <raiph> sorear: I'm being harassed about P6. Fwiw I meant strictly lazy (100%) vs mostly lazy (batched).
sorear
.oO( happy sorear-pmichaud-diakopter-japhb-et-al-get-the-day-off day, everyone )
 03:37
labster Happy Government Change Day to you too, sorear. Even Egypt is celebrating this year. 03:40
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sorear not_gerd: FROGGS: some members of the x86 family treat int >> 33 as int >> 1 (only use the low 5 bits), others treat it as >> 33 (set to 0). I suspect that the former group would treat >> (-1) as >> 31. In general, C uses the CPU's rules for invalid shifts, because it's low-level like that 05:02
the JVM specs the "& 31" interpretation 05:03
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sorear the CLR specifically says that int >> 33 is undefined, and is silent on >> -1. the C# spec says it's preprocessed with & 31 05:09
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not_gerd o/ 05:14
sorear: correct, on x86 (and in Java), a >> b == a >> (b % 32) 05:16
however, Perl6 Int are semantically arbitrary-precision, so that doesn't make much sense
I believe the only choice that makes ense in that case is indeed flip direction on negative bit counts 05:17
^sense
dalek kudo/nom: 9ece8b4 | (Brent Laabs)++ | src/core/IO/Spec/Win32.pm:
implement canonpath(:parent) for Win32, rm os-dependent '...' -> '../..'

both of which are no longer being updated by the OS owners.		 05:18
labster I assume no one here is plans to run rakudo on outdated smartphones, right? 05:20
sorear that or die
not_gerd: just checked my copy of the intel software dev manual, the %32 was introduced in the 286 05:23
the 8086 did not do it, and the 80186 apparently never existed
not_gerd it's also 'funny' that in constant expressions, gcc will flip shift direction on negative 2nd argument, whereas clang will just return garbage 05:27
both emit a warning, but neither falls back to CPU semantics
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sorear garbage as in rand() ? 05:34
presumably not system("nethack")...
o/ FROGGS[mobile]
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not_gerd sorear: I've no idea where it gets these values from 05:42
the first invalid shift returns a random value, all further ones -13096272
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FROGGS[mobile]2 morning 05:55
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not_gerd FROGGS[mobile]2: good morning 05:58
not_gerd pushed his shift stuff last night
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FROGGS not_gerd++ 06:08
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sorear two froggsmobiles! 06:17
or are they froggsesmobile, I can't tell 06:18
FROGGS *g*
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[Coke] yawns. 06:47
sorear o/ [Coke]
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[Coke] sorear: \o 06:50
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sorear dives back into java interop 07:01
JimmyZ sorear++ 07:03
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labster hmm, what should I dive into? 07:15
nwc10 panda on the JVM? 07:17
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[Coke] jvm test aborts 07:25
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lizmat tries to drink another cup of tea 07:31
sorear imagines lizmat covered in tea, having failed 07:32
lizmat .oO{ if it had been alcohol, it would have been alcohol abuse }
now it is merely hot ;-) 07:33
labster sorear has java all over him 07:34
labster ended up fixing a self-made parakudo test abort instead :/ 07:40
dalek kudo/nom: 68301a7 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/List.pm:
Remove .pop's "is rw" and fix the fallout from unshift's use of that
 07:42
kudo/nom: c74287f | (Brent Laabs)++ | src/core/IO/Spec/Win32.pm:
fix thinko in Win32 canonpath
 07:44
labster masak: your git pull --rebase strategy seems to work :)
[Coke] gist.github.com/coke/5879701 is updated. 07:46
r: say 24355 / 26105 # intraday jvm standing. 07:47
camelia rakudo 9ece8b: OUTPUT«0.932963␤»
[Coke] r: say 26105*.95-24355
camelia rakudo 9ece8b: OUTPUT«444.75␤»
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lizmat r: my @a=1; @a.pop; @a.pop; my @b; @b.pop # [email@hidden.address] does not give an error while on empty array, while first pop on @b bombs? 07:54
camelia rakudo 9ece8b: OUTPUT«Element popped from empty list␤ in method sink at src/gen/CORE.setting:10498␤ in block at /tmp/brlzVdY1qO:1␤␤»
lizmat r: my @a=1; @a.pop; @a.pop; say @a; my @b; say @b; @b.pop # [email@hidden.address] does not give an error while on empty array, while first pop on @b bombs?
camelia rakudo 9ece8b: OUTPUT«Element popped from empty list␤ in method sink at src/gen/CORE.setting:10498␤ in block at /tmp/qubpv2xo7A:1␤␤»
lizmat huh?
r: my @a; say defined(@a.pop) # seems that defined() is stopping pop from empty list from bombing? 07:56
camelia rakudo 9ece8b: OUTPUT«False␤»
[Coke] r: my @a=1; @a.pop; @a.pop; say @a; my @b; say @b; @b.pop; 1 07:57
camelia rakudo 9ece8b: OUTPUT«Element popped from empty list␤ in method sink at src/gen/CORE.setting:10498␤ in block at /tmp/l0mINE4XOE:1␤␤»
lizmat r: my @a; say @a.pop.WHAT
camelia rakudo 9ece8b: OUTPUT«(Failure)␤»
lizmat it's an unthrown failure 07:58
and apparently defined() doesn't throw?
moritz defined() and truth tests don't throw 07:59
and mark a Failure as .handled
sorear o/ moritz 08:00
Failure: it even confuses core hackers 08:01
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labster maybe I should start some sort of Failure Blog to document times when we have problems with Failure. 08:03
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moritz my current approach would be to abolish Failure, sink context, and laziness of for-loops 08:06
it would solve so many problems, and with very little downside
JimmyZ what's about for(1..*) ? 08:08
lizmat r: say (1..*).WHAT
camelia rakudo 9ece8b: OUTPUT«(Range)␤»
sorear moritz: +1 08:09
moritz (and make 'map' and 'for' different things) 08:10
JimmyZ it's time to add github issues?
I mean github.com/perl6/spec
sorear (maybe instead of just saying I don't want to go to Abilene I should try turning the figurative car around myself) 08:11
moritz I'm not sure if that's the best place to discuss this
JimmyZ perl6-lang mail list?
moritz no, don't ever try to discuss anything important there
JimmyZ or blog ?
moritz maybe blog, maybe perl6/spec/issues, maybe here 08:12
sorear if you go to p6l then instead of a day trip we'll be stuck there permanently >_> 08:13
JimmyZ +1 to here 08:14
with a gist
moritz maybe I'll have time to write up my thoughts soonish 08:16
sorear wonders if the parable of the trip to Abilene is considered insulting by Abileners or Texans in general 08:17
lizmat s/Abilene/Hooterville/ ? 08:18
r: my @a; say not so @a.pop 08:19
camelia rakudo c74287: OUTPUT«True␤»
sorear lizmat: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox 08:20
masak aloha, #perl6 08:22
sorear yo, masak
masak moritz: I kinda like the list results of statement_mod for. not saying it's worth keeping just for that... but we'd need a new way to do list comprehensions.
sorear niecza treats statement_mod for differently depending on whether it appears at statment level or not 08:23
so far nobody has complained
and it's not without precedent, circumfix:<{ }> is magical in the same way 08:24
lizmat sorear++ for the reference
masak ooh 08:25
sorear we could probably do the same thing with all loops
note that this would allow return (while { ... }) if you want to force listy semantics 08:26
masak: tomorrow is national sorear-gets-the-day-off-to-hack-perl6 day :)
lizmat fitness& 08:32
masak sorear: \o/ 08:39
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masak oh wow two more HPMoR chapters! \o/ 08:44
moritz three, for me :-) 08:47
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dalek ast: ad806e0 | (Brent Laabs)++ | S32-io/io-spec-win.t:
add Win32 canonpath parent tests
 08:59
labster I guess I need to read HPMoR. For some reason, I'm more attracted to animefic than Potterfic, but everyone seems to like it. 09:00
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sorear labster: if you want to classify it, hpmor is probably more Yudkowsky than Potterfic... 09:08
moritz has no experience with potterfix except hpmor 09:10
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moritz *fic 09:16
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mathw I started reading it, but it took too many liberties with the source material for my liking. It wasn't 'what if Harry was raised by...' it was 'what if Harry was raised by... AND all this other stuff was just completely different too' 09:29
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jnthn_ .nick jnthn 09:37
yoleaux jnthn_: Sorry, this command is admin-only.
jnthn_ oops :)
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sorear o/ jnthn 09:41
jnthn hi, sorear
How goes?
sorear jnthn: good! 09:42
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jnthn :) 09:46
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sorear jnthn: and you? 09:49
dalek p: a93b817 | sorear++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/runtime/ (2 files):
Start stubbing in BootJavaInterop
 09:51
p: 9ffa04d | sorear++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/runtime/GlobalContext.java:
GlobalContext.getCurrentThreadContext
jnthn sorear: Well, seems I got plenty of sleep... :) 09:53
ooh! Java interop stuffs :)
sorear jnthn: yep. planning to do a lot with that tomorrow 09:55
jnthn ooh :)
sorear (I have the day off, you may be aware)
jnthn Ah, national holiday? 09:56
jnthn somehow had that down as today
sorear yeah. commemorates my country declaring war on yours.
jnthn
.oO( But I saw the movie, and thought it was "defeating alien spaceships over TCP/IP" day... )
 09:57
sorear I prefer to celebrate sorear-gets-the-day-off-to-hack-perl6 day
jnthn Works for me :D
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jnthn bbi10 10:08
masak cognominal: for you: xkcd.com/1232/ 10:11
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sorear I wonder how much it would hurt if we had to run JVM try.rakudo as a signed full trust applet 10:43
it looks like sun in their infinite wisdom has made loading classes directly from memory a privileged operation 10:44
jnthn ...urgh!
sorear as opposed to base64encoding the class file into a class name and feeding it off to a magic reflector on the web server
:)
jnthn omg! 10:46
That's *evil*. Is there a max class name length? :)
lizmat as long as the lock on the frontdoor is good, we're safe :-)
sorear the security check is invoked in the constructor, so um I'm going to see if the spec verifier bug I mentioned the other day is fixed in the real verifier 10:48
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jnthn
.oO( Thus triggering Oracle to issue a new security update... :D )
 10:49
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sorear this would not be the first security check I've found in the implementation that is omitted from the spec 10:50
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dalek ast: 6bfa6b1 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-array/pop.t:
Add some more tests related to pop()/.pop error conditions
 10:55
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sorear jnthn: There's URLClassLoader.newInstance which looks like a nonprivileged way. Will investigate later. 11:13
jnthn Cool 11:16
sorear: Are you likely to do the pipe/shell stuff at all, or should I put it on my list of things to look at?
sorear: It's the leading blocker of spectests by now...by some margin.
By files, if not by number of tests. 11:17
sorear jnthn: pipe/shell stuff is blocking on a resolution to the $*EXECUTABLE_NAME problem
jnthn The others being sprintf support, and a bounded serialization repossession bug...
sorear: Oh...
sorear: The problem being, what do we put in there?
sorear: 'cus "it depends" whether we're running on the eval client or not? 11:18
sorear jnthn:
jnthn: yes
jnthn: pipe/shell is practically useless if we don't have something sane in there
jnthn Right.
lizmat r: my @a=1; my $b:= @a.pop; $b=3 # this is a bug, I presums 11:19
camelia rakudo c74287: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a readonly variable or a value␤ in block at /tmp/ycEHcPnN4C:1␤␤»
jnthn sorear: I can think of solutions, but they're all a bit hack.
sorear potentially worse than useless if it evals to the empty string and roast runs random shell commands
jnthn sorear: Do we have an op that exposes if we're running under the eval server or not? 11:20
arnsholt Right. Let's see if we can't add some C compilation to the JVM build process ^_^
lizmat r: my @a=1; my $b:= @a.shift; $b=3 11:21
camelia rakudo c74287: ( no output )
jnthn sorear: Oh, we'd need to know the *token* as well as the path to eval client, wouldn't we... 11:22
sorear yes
and the path to perl6.jar
er no
anyway many of the is_run tests want to change env vars or the current dir or stuff, so we probably *shouldn't* run them through eval server 11:23
jnthn And the token goes in a file on the client side, so the eval server itself has no idea on the file?
Ah.
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jnthn There is always the option of saying "oh, just spawn the normal runner" 11:23
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jnthn It'll be safer, though slower... 11:23
dalek kudo/nom: 8a76baa | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/List.pm:
Revert "Remove .pop's "is rw" and fix the fallout from unshift's use of that"

This reverts commit 68301a78dc644229fa747250d7119500103f2baa.		 11:24
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jnthn sorear: I think let's have Configure.pl generate a .java that goes into rakudo-runtime.jar and provides a method returning the path to the runner. 11:26
sorear: Which Configure.pl knows, naturally.
sorear: Then map an nqp::p6executable to it.
pmurias jnthn: would that work when the executables are moved? 11:27
jnthn pmurias: It'd need re-generating for "make install", and yes, it means that particular feature won't re-locate. 11:28
Oh...
Hmm.
jnthn had another idea but it probably won't work. :)
sorear jnthn: I was kind of thinking of baking a -Dorg.perl6.rakudo.runner=XXX into the runner
would need some kind of escaping 11:29
jnthn sorear: Would the XXX be determined "dynamically"?
stackoverflow.com/questions/343518/...batch-file 11:30
sorear jnthn: well, tools/build/create-jvm-runner knows the full path of the file it's creating
since it's rerun at install time
jnthn sorear: oh, point
sorear: Doesn't get us relocatability for that one feature, but I guess we can live with it. 11:31
Somebody clever can probably figure out a solution later if they care to... :)
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sorear jnthn: we fail relocatability in a lot of ways 11:38
not_gerd personally, I think it would be really cool if Rakudo could be packaged in a single jar and some batch/shell scripts
both batch and shell scripts can find out their own path, and so can Java programs 11:39
jnthn sorear: Oh? I'm sure nwc10++ copied a Rakudo build to another machine and had it run...
not_gerd s/programs/classes/
dalek kudo-js: 12f3ac4 | (Pawel Murias)++ | / (2 files):
Deserialize contexts.
 11:47
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nwc10 IIRC I did, but the paths were probably identical 11:50
jnthn ah 11:51
nwc10 mostly because the shell script runners had paths embedded
arnsholt jnthn: JNI C code in src/vm/jvm/native sound good to you? 12:00
jnthn arnsholt: wfm 12:01
sorear whaaaat?
arnsholt: what are you trying to do?
jnthn arnsholt: Wait, what is the C code?
arnsholt: To build JNI itself?
arnsholt: Or some custom stuff for us? 12:02
arnsholt Custom stuff for us
jnthn Hm
arnsholt NativeCall needs a bit of glue to talk to libdyncall
jnthn Oh...we can't use JNI directly to implement the NativeCall APIs?
sorear arnsholt: suggest you use en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Native_Access 12:03
arnsholt Well, JNI is the Java Native Interface. That is, "how to call C code from Java"
sorear jnthn: JNI is an XS-like interface; C-side marshalling
arnsholt sorear: I'm looking at that too, but it looks like it's more like our NativeCall
That is, it doesn't seem to be easy to define interfaces at run-time without generating Java classes and feeding those to JNA 12:04
jnthn arnsholt: P6opaque is already doing that class generation thing, fwiw. 12:05
I think I'd prefer that over having to build custom C code.
arnsholt Yeah, I know. But I'm not sure if I can use that class directly with JNA 12:06
Okies. I'll look harder at JNA, in that case
jnthn No, probably not directly...
sorear arnsholt: twall.github.io/jna/3.5.2/javadoc/c...ction.html 12:07
jnthn I wonder if JNA exposes any kind of "plumbing" layer that the interfaces are just sugar for
If we can get at that...
arnsholt Yeah, I think I found it
jnthn what sorear++ just said :)
sorear jnthn: it does, I'm looking at the docs for that now
arnsholt Yeah, it seems to do the trick 12:08
jnthn Yeah, feels like a betterer way :)
arnsholt More betterer! =) 12:09
sorear sleep& 12:10
jnthn 'night, sorear
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colomon o/ 12:25
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timotimo t.h8.lv/p6bench/native_fixed.html - i fixed the native benchmarks by replacing $i++ by $i = $i + 1 everywhere and now there's more results 12:36
it's amazing how utterly slow concat seems to be on jvm 12:37
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timotimo it's interesting to note that the jvm seems to reach the StackOverflowError really, really quickly in the man or boy test 12:42
jnthn We're just using the default stack size 12:44
Which is probably not all that big 12:45
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jnthn timotimo++ # thanks, those are interesting 12:48
arnsholt The slow concat on JVM might be alleviated by using string builders 12:49
tadzik timotimo: I think the usual thing one does to avoid the slow concat is using StringBuffers (or whatsitsname) all the time
yeah, string builders
arnsholt IIRC that was an important optimization in Java previous years, but I think the Java optimiser does it automagically these days 12:50
timotimo arnsholt: i looked at the code. there's already string builders involved.
jnthn Yeah, but not in that concat example, I doubt
timotimo huh. 12:53
i can investigate a bit more.
oh, yes, of course
that is actually concat with the ~ operator 12:54
colomon right
timotimo while_push uses the join method which uses string builders
colomon which even if it uses string builder internally, is going to convert to string after each application, I'm betting.
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arnsholt Right. Time to look at this Zavolaj issue 13:02
colomon++ # Bug report 13:04
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masak I wish I could remember more often than even when I'm in the middle of a project and about to make some change, starting with something ridiculously small and making that work is usually a very good idea. 13:41
for some reason I have this kind of behavior down pat when it comes to fresh projects. but not so much with mature projects.
colomon sprintf?
jnthn masak: Do the mature projects tned to have good test coverage? 13:42
masak colomon: I wasn't thinking of anything in particular. this just struck me as something I'm bad at.
jnthn: it varies. but I see what you're getting at. 13:43
jnthn 'cus that can infuence feedback cycle cost, I guess...
*influence
masak yes, it can.
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masak I think I've fallen into the trap I've described even with good test coverage. 13:43
jnthn ah
colomon masak: actually, what is the state of sprintf? there are a bunch of tests blocking on it jvm, I'd be willing to help get it going. 13:44
masak colomon: I think the state is pretty good. actually, I could spend some time tonight reviewing the state and getting back to you.
colomon k
masak a bunch of people made lots of good commits.
jnthn Could be a good time to get it in. 13:46
It's gotta be an improvement on the current state for JVM.
masak well... 13:47
it'd be integrated on the nqp level, I guess.
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masak and that would probably create quite a few regressions on Rakudo Parrot. 13:48
colomon #ifdef it in?
masak *possibly* that's where to start on the next sprint -- improving things so that the Rakudo Parrot spectests still pass.
jnthn I was only gonna do it for JVM
masak ok.
that works, too.
jnthn Which means it can be improved there
And then we can swtich Parrot over too
colomon and fix it there… right
masak sounds good. 13:50
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masak hm, it only now strikes me that knowing which test files in roast target sprintf/fmt would be a good thing. 13:50
that would give some roadmap-like guidance for what to do next with sprintf.
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colomon fmt.t 13:53
sprintf.t
:)
but the date / time stuff rely on it a bunch as well 13:54
(both of those are S32-str, I think
)
masak colomon++ 13:55
colomon it wasn't exactly rocket science. ;)
jnthn [Coke]++'s magical list of explosions is a good source
colomon my guess is getting just a bit more sprintf in jvm would be a good thing 13:56
jnthn gist.github.com/coke/5879701
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colomon argh, idiot IRC client has started autocorrecting my spelling, and it doesn't know diddly about programming. 13:56
jnthn hehe! 13:57
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mst < jnthn> autocorrect makes me sound regarded 13:59
colomon it's the entire operating system doing it?
osxdaily.com/2011/07/28/turn-off-au...os-x-lion/
geekosaur native programs inherit autocorrect from the OS, yes 14:00
colomon now I can type jvm without it turning into jam
mst mmm ... jam ... 14:01
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geekosaur sticky autocorrect 14:02
colomon masak: anyway, the executive summary of [Coke]++'s list is getting a more functional sprintf would be a big help in getting us 500+ more tests running (though perhaps not passing) 14:03
jnthn Hm, that may get us to 95%... 14:04
FROGGS looks like we need another sprintf evening 14:05
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masak yeah. 14:06
I have time this weekend.
FROGGS me too I guess
jnthn sounds like a sage use of time... 14:07
TimToady you're parsely correct 14:08
colomon I will be heading to the Great White North. Though I guess I will probably have internet access until I leave Michigan, and then at the hotel in White River. (May be driving the car, however, which would make hacking difficult.)
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colomon is there a repo for what you guys have gotten done already? 14:09
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colomon www.nagagamilodge.com/lake.php # they do have internet access at the lodge, so I won't disappear completely. :) 14:12
FROGGS colomon: github.com/masak/sprintf 14:13
colomon FROGGS++
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lizmat cycling& 14:42
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colomon "This representation can not unbox to a native str" 14:53
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jnthn Tends to be accurate :) 14:54
colomon woof, sprintf.nqp is not terribly happy under JVM
jnthn How'd you get it?
colomon make nqp::join('', @pieces) (in sprintf) 14:55
jnthn Is it using nqp::join on an array of things, some of which are not strings?
OK, either make sure everything going into pieces is actually a string, or use join(...) instead of nqp::join.
colomon looks like the pieces consist of the output of another nqp::join call and some asts. 14:56
I assume the latter are where I should be looking?
jnthn Sounds like
colomon oh, wow, switching it to join not only got around the crash, it made the two (pre-crash) failing tests work 14:59
with that change, it passes all tests on nqp-jvm
jnthn \o/
FROGGS O.o 15:00
and I thought nqp::join is the same as join when invoked by nqp 15:01
tadzik same 15:02
benabik I think if join() in NQP was the same as nqp::join, it wouldn't exist. 15:03
JimmyZ o.O
jnthn On Parrot they appear to be the same. Unfortunately, if you do use nqp::join on non-string things, then it results a bunch of v-table calls back into Perl 6 code, which is slow. 15:04
Under the JVM and Moar, it's simply an error to have something that won't unbox as a string in the thing given to nqp::join
FROGGS so I should stick to join() in all cases?
jnthn Depends what you know 15:05
FROGGS k
jnthn If you know you just constructed an array of strings...
FROGGS so join() does more checks and is therefor a bit slower in general? 15:06
jnthn It does the equivalent of nqp::join($joiner, @stuff.map(~*))
FROGGS ahh
jnthn Or *.Str, or whatever :)
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TimToady sorear: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-07-04#i_7287899 is incorrect; the loop would still be at statement level 15:35
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TimToady moritz: and your "with very little downside" is, I believe, a conjecture that will be difficult to demonstrate 15:38
TimToady would welcome a well-thought-out proposal, being just a bit tired of the continual cheerleading approach...
I tried making 'use fatal' the default earlier today, and ran into all sorts of problems, for instance 15:39
and regardless of the Failure and loop discussions, I think that sink context is a crucial concept that is unlikely to go away 15:41
masak sorry about contributing to the cheerleading. I agree fully about presenting well-thought-out proposals.
TimToady it's almost like asking Haskell to throw out their IO monad
masak it would be a big change.
jnthn I don't personally have a problem with Failure so long as it doesn't cheat the type system, which we already had a good discussion on and I think concluded that at least Int:D bars Failure. The one that worries me is what happens when we made "for" mean map, and tripped a lot of people up. I don't (yet) have a proposal I can't shoot down 'cus it breaks another desirable thing, though... 15:45
s/happends/happened/
masak in fact, the only thing that has really pained me about lazy for loops is that adding or removing a statement *after* them can have a semantic effect on the for loop. each time it felt so illogical (once I tracked down the reason) that I immediately turned to raging on the channel, for the sake of future generations. 15:46
TimToady and I've personally had to work around niecza's limitations in various rosettacode examples, so it's not fair to say that the current semantics went unnoticed
masak I don't think I've claimed that they went unnoticed. just saying they felt really wrong. 15:47
TimToady I wouldn't mind adding extra gather/takes if they were more efficient
jnthn masak: I think 'sub foo () { try { for @a { ... } } }' was one of the trippiest ones. But I think we may have spec'd that try sinks?
diakopter awakens, sort of 15:48
TimToady try is currently specced to turn on 'use fatal'
masak jnthn: oh, that one. that was just a whole *different* sort of fail.
TimToady as well as be eager
masak jnthn: you know you're on the wrong track, design-wise, when you're throwing an error to the user that the user doesn't even understand, much less cares about.
15:49 pecastro_ left
diakopter .throw(:wolves) 15:49
masak but yes, making try eager would fix that.
TimToady and one can get around eager try with gather/take if the necessity arises
pmichaud_ good morning, #perl6 15:50
TimToady do we really want to kill the "open file or next" kind of idiom?
that's what 'use fatal' by default would do
15:51 pmichaud_ is now known as pmichaud
TimToady if we want to force people to sprinkle try everywhere, we probably have to change the syntax of try to make it more conducive to use inside an expression somehow 15:51
pmichaud lizmat: ping
masak pmichaud! \o/
jnthn o/ pmichaud 15:52
masak pmichaud: lizmat is currently cycling, I believe.
TimToady currently it's a statement prefix, so "try open $file or die" won't work
pmichaud what's the reason for removing the 'is rw' from List.pop ?
oh, nevermind, I see it was reverted.
TimToady I believe it got reverted
pmichaud okay, good.
masak pmichaud: I think the current sentiment is more like "what was the reason to have it there in the first place?"
jnthn pmichaud: I think the question lizmat would ask is, "why is it there"? :) I didn't have a good answer.
masak but I maybe insufficiently backlogged. 15:53
pmichaud it's there because Lists are lists of containers
jnthn pmichaud: Though can imagine there being one.
masak may be*
pmichaud or, more to the point, may be lists of containers
so if you pop a container from a List, you should be dealing with the container, not its value
jnthn OK
So it was intentional, not accidental. I suspected so, given it is the same way with shift.
pmichaud just like if you say .[3] on a List, you're dealing with any container in the List, not with just the values 15:54
jnthn *nod*
masak pmichaud: I still don't quite see it. maybe all I need is a use case that obviously shows that pop should be 'is rw'.
to me it feels intuitively like I pop values, not containers.
pmichaud what is it being removed from the List?
you're not just removing the value, you're removing the container holding the value 15:55
masak granted.
that doesn't mean you're returning the container, though.
with .[3] you can both read or assign to the thing. with .pop, all I imagine doing is read.
pmichaud No.
No nonono
that's wrong.
with .[3] you can assign to the thing *if it's a container* in that slot.
we're talking about Lists, not Arrays 15:56
masak fair enough.
I don't see how it changes my point, though.
pmichaud .[3] returns the thing in the slot.
.pop should return the thing in the last slot
masak many other operations decontainerize the thing they return. why not .pop, too? 15:57
pmichaud because .pop is primarily a thing used to manipulate a List.
and Lists are all about keeping track of containers and values.
masak r: my @a = 1, 2, 3; my $b = @a.pop = 4; say $b 15:58
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«4␤»
masak maybe because this is the only use case I've seen yet, I'm biased against this ;)
pmichaud that's an Array.
masak which also has an 'is rw' pop!
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jnthn Array ~~ List 15:59
pmichaud if you have a Parcel, and then you want to manipulate the Parcel, you first convert it to a List.
masak pmichaud: *you're* the one talking about Lists here. :)
pmichaud you don't want that conversion to a List to suddenly start decontainerizing things when you manipulate it
masak jnthn: welcome to Perl 6. Liskov does not always apply :/
jnthn masak: Um. If you want Array to not have the "is rw" pop like List, then no, it won't. :P 16:00
pmichaud and it really is analogous to shift, in many ways. When shifting from a List or an Iterator, you don't want to automatically decontainerize whatever you're getting
jnthn afaik, pop is inherited from List, though.
masak pmichaud: usually I immediately store the shifted thing in a variable. and then it's no big deal because the variable has a container. 16:01
pmichaud because if you do that, then things like ($a,$b,$c).grep( ) don't let you assign to $_
masak ok, that's the first good use case I've seen.
jnthn pmichaud: pop behaving like shift feels right, and the container argument for shift is a LOT stronger.
masak that makes sense, I think.
jnthn pmichaud++
masak pmichaud++ 16:02
pmichaud masak: "I store the shifted thing in a variable" means you're focusing on the value returned and not the container-ness of the thing that was in the List. Sometimes you need the latter, though.
colomon …. honestly, that still doesn't feel like a proper explanation to me. I'm sure pmichaud has a good point, I just don't understand what it is.
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pmichaud colomon: when iterating over a List, you're dealing with the elements of the List. Sometimes those things are containers that you expect to be able to assign to. 16:03
masak pmichaud: the ($a,$b,$c).grep( ) and assigning to $_ did it for me. I see it now.
colomon but… it's binding to $_ that's the issue, right? If it were assigning, it would just work.
is $_ rw by default? 16:04
pmichaud colomon: I don't understand the question.
colomon r: my @a = 1,2,3; for @a { $_++ }; say @a
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«2 3 4␤»
masak in for loops, it is.
like an invisible '<-> $_'
colomon don't think I knew that
masak Juerd++ # <-> 16:05
pmichaud r: my $a = 1; my $b = 2; for ($a,$b) { $_++ }; say $a; say $b;
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«2␤3␤»
Juerd \o/
I like "my" operators, <-> and .=
masak oh, you suggested .= too?
pmichaud r: my $a = 1; my $b = 2; for ($a,$b,3) { $_++ }; say $a; say $b;
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable value␤ in sub postfix:<++> at src/gen/CORE.setting:3613␤ in sub postfix:<++> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2064␤ in block at /tmp/fhlLJAhiT9:1␤␤»
masak Juerd++ # .=
colomon Juerd++ # .= 16:06
dalek ecs: 0d3a8a9 | larry++ | S02-bits.pod:
failure must respect return type, if any
pmichaud wait.... what?! 16:07
pmichaud is confused by 0d3a8a9 16:08
TimToady fail inside a --> Int function throws regardless of 'use fatal' setting, per discussion with jnthn++
Juerd masak: Almost a decade ago! groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/pe...BEXULCoCjs
IIRC, that was after a discussion on IRC 16:09
pmichaud thinks about that.
colomon I think I understand why .[3] should return a container. For me, uniformity with that is the best argument I've heard for pop is rw. But it still seems a bit weird to me.
pmichaud colomon: you have to think about it in terms of what a List holds and the way that Lists can act as mutable Parcels 16:10
not in terms of what someone would do with the value returned from List
Juerd rereads the thread and enjoys reading TimToady's stream of thoughts.
pmichaud maybe it helps to think of it this way.... 16:11
@a[*] returns a Parcel containing all of the elements of @a
note that those elements are the containers in @a
Because it's a Parcel of containers, if I do @a[*].pop I would expect to get back the last container of @a -- i.e., assigning to it should change the corresponding value in the array. 16:12
masak Juerd: me too.
Juerd: I love the sense in that thread (mainly thanks to luqui) that Perl 6 is something you extend gramatically just by building grammars. 16:13
I really really hope we get to that point.
colomon pmichaud: that makes sense, but seems very very odd, somehow.
masak pmichaud: yes, that also helps.
pmichaud: (why I would ever do that... but, it makes sense that it works.) :) 16:14
TimToady but you can't pop a Parcel 16:15
pmichaud .list.pop then
colomon does this imply we should have (for instance) first-rw, which returns the container of the first value that smartmatches?
or perhaps more interestingly, grep-rw? 16:16
pmichaud I think that .first perhaps ought to be "is rw"
grep is already rw-like, or should be.
grep returns the elements maching a criteria, not just the values matching a criteria
just like .map returns the elements matching a criteria, not just the values 16:17
er, I said that wrong.
colomon r: my @a = 1..10; @a.grep(* %% 2) >>*>> 2; say @a
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10␤»
colomon r: my @a = 1..10; @a.grep(* %% 2) >>++; say @a
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Missing << or >>␤at /tmp/BltHUIMjrh:1␤------> my @a = 1..10; @a.grep(* %% 2) >>+⏏+; say @a␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix stopper␤ infix or meta-infix␤»
pmichaud dot or unspace 16:18
colomon r: my @a = 1..10; @a.grep(* %% 2) >>.++; say @a
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix > instead␤at /tmp/EsrZBlNuza:1␤------> my @a = 1..10; @a.grep(* %% 2) >>⏏.++; say @a␤»
colomon r: my @a = 1..10; @a.grep(* %% 2).>>++; say @a
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«1 3 3 5 5 7 7 9 9 11␤»
colomon 's head explodes
TimToady brunch & 16:19
colomon n: my @a = 1..10; @a.grep(* %% 2).>>++; say @a
camelia niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«1 3 3 5 5 7 7 9 9 11␤»
masak if .grep works like that, surely .first should as well :)
r: my @a = 1..10; @a.first(* %% 2).>>++; say @a
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«Cannot modify an immutable value␤ in sub postfix:<++> at src/gen/CORE.setting:3613␤ in sub postfix:<++> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2064␤ in sub hyper at src/gen/CORE.setting:14570␤ in sub hyper at src/gen/CORE.setting:14525␤ in sub METAOP_HYPER_POSTFIX at src/gen… 16:20
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masak submits rakudobug 16:20
pmichaud note that grep works like that in p5 as well
colomon is split between one side that says "THAT'S AWESOME!" and another that says "That's a grotesque distortion of what should be a nice functional method." 16:21
pmichaud gist.github.com/pmichaud/5928913
in some sense, it *is* a functional method in this form. It's returning exactly the elements that matched (the containers), without imposing a decontainerize operation on them 16:22
colomon rn: my @a = 1..10; my $b := @a.grep(* %% 2); say @a.shift; $b.>>++; say @a;
pmichaud if you decontainerize, you're not getting the elements that matched, you're getting the values of the elements that matched.
camelia rakudo 8a76ba, niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«1␤3 3 5 5 7 7 9 9 11␤»
pmichaud and again, Lists need to be able to keep track of containers, unlike Arrays which always supply their own containers 16:23
colomon rn: my @a = 1..10; my $b = @a.grep(* %% 2); say @a.shift; $b.>>++; say @a;
camelia rakudo 8a76ba, niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«1␤3 3 5 5 7 7 9 9 11␤»
masak colomon: the fundamental problem really is that we allow all this mutation all the time. and that's not going to change, so we may as well go with it.
colomon rn: my @a = 1..10; my @b = @a.grep(* %% 2); say @a.shift; @b.>>++; say @a; 16:24
camelia rakudo 8a76ba, niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«1␤2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10␤»
pmichaud okay, I think I understand the rational for fail inside of --> Int now. 16:25
r: sub xyz() { 3 }; say &xyz.of
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«(Mu)␤»
pmichaud wfm.
colomon I don't know if I'm against it or for it (though if I were against it, I think I'd insist we'd rename what we have grep-rw). I do know my understanding of how this stuff works just got shattered.
pmichaud if you're against it, a lot of other stuff likely breaks. 16:26
or has to be re-thought as well
masak I despair at the proliferation of '-rw' constructs. it feels a bit like "let's add checkboxes for options!" design. 16:27
pmichaud I agree.
diakopter had no former understanding of how all that works, so that's a good thing, I guess. Also, it is even less clear now
masak diakopter: :)
diakopter <- wasn't joking 16:28
masak didn't think you were.
but "even less clear now" is funny-'cus-it's-true, I guess.
diakopter (even less clear than zero understanding, I guess) 16:29
I mean, it's plausible [to me] that I'm not tryig hard enough 16:30
*trying
I'm beginning to think I'll never understanding anything HLLer than NQP 16:33
benabik It feels a bit like P6 distinguishes between C++ references and values, but completely invisibly. 16:35
Some things are a reference, some things are a value, and you really only know when you try to modify it. :-/ 16:36
diakopter I can never tell what "container" means - does that always mean IT (the result of the expression that returns it? or the variable that holds IT?) can be an lvalue? Or can be bound to? 16:37
(can a container hold a container?)
timotimo you can use binding to that effect, no?
diakopter to what effet
effect
timotimo changing containers that "are somewhere else" 16:39
as if having a pointer to a pointre
diakopter see, I don't even know what that question means
"changing containers"
timotimo i'm not entirely sure myself ...
benabik It feels to me like container == lvalue.
It's just that P6 has first-class-ish lvalues. 16:40
And variables aren't necessarily lvalues, if you bound it to a non-container. 16:41
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diakopter not only *whoosh*, 'asplode. 16:41
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diakopter the problem is the fact you find it necessary to preface that with "It feels to me" 16:42
benabik Because I'm not completely familiar with the spec.
i.e. I think about it like this, but I lack the experience to be certain. 16:43
diakopter moves your messages from "trying to help me understand" to "comiserating with quagmire of ambiguity" 16:44
masak diakopter: I think you might simply have very high standards of understanding.
which, I might add, is not necessarily a bad thing. 16:45
I sometimes wish I had higher standards of understanding.
benabik diakopter: "Trying to help you reach my level of understanding"
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diakopter masak: I agree that is a possibility, but if so, I don't know how to quantify or measure it 16:46
benabik feels like he has a decent understanding, but doesn't actually spend the time with P6 to be certain about it.
diakopter benabik: I've had that sensation dashed too many times to enjoy it 16:47
masak: perhaps more likely is I'm very bad at assuming in presence of ambiguity 16:48
benabik I only dislike discovering I'm wrong if I don't get new knowledge to replace it.
pmichaud p6 is trying to support both functional and stateful programming paradigms, and "containers" is where we get a lot of the stateful part. 16:49
benabik Is there a way to determine if a variable holds a container or a value? 16:54
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masak benabik: more interestingly, in what realistic situation would you ever be unsure? :) 16:56
nr: my $a; say $a.VAR
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«Any␤»
..niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«Scalar.new(...)␤»
benabik masak: Binding to the result of a variable function?
16:57 nyuszika7h joined
benabik masak: Introspecting a passed-in List? 16:57
masak benabik: ...to either modify or not modify its contents? 16:58
pmichaud sub xyz(\v) { ... } # no way to know if 'v' is a container 17:00
well, there might be one, but I don't remember what it is at the moment :)
benabik masak: Sure, why not? A function that you can pass an array to and it will modify in-place or pass something immutable and it will return the new versions. Maybe not the friendliest API, but I can see it existing. 17:01
masak heh, the eternal dance of adding powerful features on the one hand, and introspecting the results of those powerful features on the other :P
it reminds me of the "how can I distinguish whether someone didn't pass a value to this parameter, or whether they passed something but it was undefined?" discussion 17:02
jnthn r: sub foo(\v) { v.VAR.isa(Scalar) }; say foo(1); say foo(my $a)
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«False␤True␤»
pmichaud jnthn++
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benabik Maybe a more friendly way to word that: Soft-failing a function that does modifications. Perhaps the user passed something immutable but wants the side effects anyway. 17:03
jnthn++
masak r: sub foo(\v) { return unless v.VAR.isa(Scalar); say "modification!" }; say foo(1); say "no modification"; say foo(my $) 17:04
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«Nil␤no modification␤modification!␤True␤»
masak \o/
r: sub foo(\v) { return unless v.VAR.isa(Scalar); say "modification!" }; foo(1); say "no modification"; foo(my $)
moritz oh, one more poiint about the 'rw' debate
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«no modification␤modification!␤»
moritz 'is rw' on return stuff seems to be used inconsistenly with 'is rw' in signatures otherwise 17:05
benabik Although I guess you could have a non-Scalar that can FETCH and STORE, no?
Eh.
moritz sub f($x is rw) { }; f 42; # is supposed to die, because it's not a container
I know rakudo doesn't implement it
(and the \ syntax for stuff that could or could not be a container)
diakopter being able to tell whether something is a scalar at runtime wasn't my problem and isn't helpful to me; my problem is being able to tell what code does/creates
moritz but we seem to use return-rw as if it was supposed to simply not strip the container 17:06
which isn't what 'is rw' in signatures does
so, it's either buggy too, and most useless when implemented correctly, or very wrongly named 17:07
diakopter masak: did you mean to say it's more interesting to be able to tell whether something is that, at code-time, or run-time? 17:08
masak diakopter: I was subtly implying that if you don't know it at code-time, you have bigger problems. 17:21
diakopter okay. :) so we're in agreement. :) 17:22
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TimToady the return meaning is more like the old "is parcel", before we had \x parameters 17:40
dalek rl6-roast-data: 8353212 | coke++ | / (5 files):
today (automated commit)
 17:41
TimToady but the \ doesn't work symmetrically on the return value, unless we allow it in the --> \$x slot 17:42
and I'm not sure that works right either
pmichaud yeah, that would seem funny.
TimToady and --> \x doesn't work either, since SSA says that has to be initialized at the point of declaration 17:43
unless maybe we allow x := later on somehow
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TimToady nr: my \x = my $x; x := 42; say x; 17:45
pmichaud I've forgotten what the use case for return-rw is, though.
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot use bind operator with this left-hand side␤at /tmp/dQ45hKRdFu:1␤------> my \x = my $x; x := 42⏏; say x;␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤»
..niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $x is declared but not used at /tmp/nreWiHumoU line 1:␤------> my \x = my ⏏$x; x := 42; say x;␤␤42␤»
TimToady nr: my \x = my $x; x := 42; say $x;
camelia niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
..rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot use bind operator with this left-hand side␤at /tmp/WahaDTaIKN:1␤------> my \x = my $x; x := 42⏏; say $x;␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤»
[Coke] rakudo.jvm up to 93.46% 17:47
pmichaud afk, lunch 17:48
jnthn r: say 26097 - 24391 17:49
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«1706␤»
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timotimo rakudo fails went up, though; is that from the .pop changes? were they reverted after the test run started? 18:01
colomon rn: say 2**68 + 2**54 + 2**3 18:04
camelia rakudo 8a76ba, niecza v24-86-g39ab531: OUTPUT«295165919577862307848␤»
18:04 daxim left
colomon wait, does nqp have native bigints? 18:09
moritz yes-ish 18:10
colomon > say(2**68 + 2**54 + 2**3)
2.951659195778623E20
moritz it has bigint ops
colomon > say(295165919577862307848)
9223372036854775807
moritz but integer literals aren't bigints
colomon ah 18:11
moritz so you need a class with a bigint repr, make instances of that class and work with them
colomon then my latest push to colomon/sprintf is all wrong
moritz: are there examples somewhere?
colomon needs to brush up on his NQP
afk # late midday noms
moritz colomon: there are some bigint tests in the nqp repo 18:14
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arnsholt colomon: It's a weird bug you've reported =) 18:40
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masak .oO( better than in Soviet Russia, where that's a weird bug who reported YOU ) 18:53
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arnsholt =D 18:56
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lizmat pmichaud: ping 19:00
jnthn back
lizmat wrt "why do pop and shift have "is rw" 19:05
it is simply I think because otherwise: "my $a := @a.shift; $a = 1" would die because $a is marked read-only then
as a side effect of course, "my $b = @a.pop = 3" becomes valid 19:06
well, maybe not "of course", empirically that is what bhappens then 19:07
arnsholt jnthn: Has there been any reworkings of how "does" does its work recently? 19:08
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arnsholt Weeeeeird. "sub foo() is symbol(...) is native(...) { * }" works, but "sub foo() is native(...) is symbol(...)" doesn't 19:10
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jnthn arnsholt: Not that I can immediately think of. 19:11
arnsholt: Last person to touch it was FROGGS iirc 19:12
FROGGS I did what?
jnthn git log src/Perl6/Metamodel/Mixins.nqp will tell all
FROGGS: Touched mixins ;)
FROGGS I did
arnsholt Any idea how the above situation could arise?
jnthn FROGGS: I don't know how what you did could cause what arnsholt is seeing though...
FROGGS hmmm, if my patch did in one could comment out line nine here: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9009440 19:14
and maybe line 770 here too: github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/33a807...1ecd2f24c1 19:15
arnsholt: I can try that if you want 19:16
arnsholt I'll give that a whack
FROGGS I'd just need some code snippet to test ist
-s
k
19:20 sqirrel left
sorear good * #perl6 19:25
FROGGS sorear o/
masak sorear! \o/ 19:28
19:30 Rix left
arnsholt FROGGS: Commenting out those lines doesn't seem to fix the bug, so not your fault =) 19:30
masak lizmat: well, 'my $a := @a.shift; $a = 1' is not a strong enough use case for me either. 19:32
lizmat: but ($a, $b, $c).map( ) is.
jnthn o/ sorear
lizmat reading the backlog, I think the argument to me is not whether .pop should return the actual container / make it rw. It's really about .pop being a left value 19:34
aka: my $b := @a.pop; $b =2 should work, but my $b = @a.pop = 3 should not
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lizmat returning a left value and being a left value, are not the same thing to me 19:35
otoh, I can live with the current situation, now I understand why it is there 19:36
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jnthn So, what should I do with this evening's tuits... :) 19:36
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lizmat make a method that returns the "keyof" of a typed Hash 19:37
so I can update .perl for typed hashes
jnthn method keyof() { TKey }
Next!
lizmat that's it?
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jnthn well, lemme check the code... 19:37
19:37 Hor|zon joined
jnthn yeah 19:38
my role TypedHash[::TValue, ::TKey] does Associative[TValue] {
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lizmat consider that implemented and tested then :-) 19:38
19:38 Rix joined
jnthn So a method in there like I showed will do it. Then one in EnumMap or so that returns...hm, well, Any for now I guess, thuugh should be Any(Str) in the end. 19:38
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jnthn uh, sorry 19:39
Str(Any)
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lizmat ok 19:39
jnthn But we don't have coercion types yet.
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lizmat the other thing that's stumped me, is the default value for assigning Nil 19:39
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lizmat r: my Int $a=1; $a=Nil; say $a 19:40
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«No such method 'gist' for invocant of type 'NQPMu'␤ in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:11384␤ in block at /tmp/ECwtz6loY2:1␤␤»
19:40 telex left
lizmat somehow "the_default" is not set in the ContainerDescription 19:40
19:40 telex joined
jnthn Hm, didn't that work? 19:40
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jnthn hm 19:40
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jnthn lizmat: Where is it meant to be set? 19:41
lizmat: I don't see anything in install_lexical_container setting it 19:42
lizmat well, that may be the pb then...
jnthn no, wait, not there
create_container_descriptor
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lizmat so that would need a :$default parameter ? 19:43
(optional)
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lizmat r: sub a () { (1,2,3).map({ return $_ }) }; a # wonders about the correctness of the error message 19:46
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«Attempt to return outside of any Routine␤current instr.: 'throw' pc 367455 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:158274) (src/gen/CORE.setting:9213)␤called from Sub '' pc 109440 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:48642) (src/gen/CORE.setting:10440)␤called from Sub '' pc 36590 (src/gen/…
jnthn Well, or do $default = $of at the end, perhaps 19:47
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lizmat ah, gotcha, yeah, that would work for now 19:48
testing that now
sorear jnthn: how would you feel about a gimme_v bit in the call frame that propagates down, though? 19:49
jnthn well, breaks for the default case
That'll want a fix somewhere in Actions.pm
jnthn digs into a tricky problem he's put off for a while 19:50
arnsholt jnthn: gist.github.com/arnsholt/5929886 19:51
Looks like a Sub-specific issue with role mixins?
FROGGS arnsholt: \o/
arnsholt: though that doesnt help you :/
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sorear FROGGS: how does v5.pm handle wantarray? 19:52
FROGGS sorear: it does not 19:53
(yet)
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lizmat jnthn: success! 19:54
perl6 -e 'my Int $a=1; $a=Nil; say $a'
(Int)
running spectest now 19:55
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masak lizmat++ 19:56
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jnthn sorear: I guess it's do-able... 20:05
ssutch hallo everyone 20:06
masak hi, ssutch!
ssutch it's been too long
masak .oO( /join #perl6 early, /join #perl6 often ) 20:07
sorear o/ 20:08
FROGGS hi ssutch
ssutch \o 20:09
rindolf ssutch: hi. 20:11
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lizmat jnthn, masak: I guess this is a bug, right? We would expect Any 20:14
$ perl6 -e 'my $a=1; $a=Nil; say $a'
Nil
jnthn Lookslike. 20:15
masak aye. 20:16
lizmat trying to fix
ssutch whatever happened to sprintf implementation in NQP? 20:18
jnthn ssutch: Ongoing. :) 20:19
FROGGS it is still in masak's repo, and their are plans for another hackathon this weekend
ssutch neato, now it's a grammar 20:20
FROGGS but feel free to do things before then :o)
I hope it easier to read that way
specially when having many different rules with different options
labster o/ #perl6
FROGGS hi labster 20:21
labster: how is $work going?
ssutch darn someone did right justification
:p
FROGGS *g*
jnthn Better than them doing wrong justification...
FROGGS >.<
ssutch badump *sshhh* 20:22
FROGGS hehe
labster FROGGS: I'm still getting set up with the paperwork, and today is a national holiday
FROGGS k
labster but for right now I believe I am getting paid to do nothing, so that's good 20:23
FROGGS well, then there is room for improvement at $work
masak ssutch: there are still things left to do :) 20:25
ssutch indeed!
masak and yes, feel free to join Saturday, or before that, or after that :)
I'll try to provide some basis for a direction by Saturday,
ssutch what GMT saturday?
masak let's say 18:00Z. 20:26
I think we did last time.
ssutch derp, im backpacking saturday
masak oh noes
dalek p: 6ff98f6 | jnthn++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/sixmodel/SerializationWriter.java:
Sanity check in serialization writer.
 20:27
p: dfeac2b | jnthn++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/sixmodel/SerializationContext.java:
Another sanity check in repossession.
ssutch when not hacking: secure.flickr.com/photos/samsutch/...773325225/
masak well, as I said, we're distributed in time as well as geographically. :)
ssutch indeed :) 20:28
lizmat bit of an NQP question: I would like to do something like "$of ~~ Mu ?? Any !! $of"
masak so feel free to chip in on non-Saturday if that works better.
sorear jnthn: having problems with repo conflicts?
lizmat but I get "Cannot type check against type variable TValue" error
jnthn ssutch: Ooooh! Pretty!
sorear lizmat: nqp::istype($of, Mu) might work better
TimToady_ um $of ~~ Mu is always true
sorear unless $of is a foreign object 20:29
dalek kudo-js: f687267 | (Pawel Murias)++ | / (2 files):
Add licence file.
masak ssutch: that mountainside looks impressive.
jnthn lizmat: I...think if you're writing that line of code, you're solving it wrong. :)
Though yeah, the error happens when you try to use a type variable as if it were a real type.
lizmat well, I need to handle the case of an untyped container
TimToady_ introspection is usually a code smell, though of course Mu is always close to bootstrappy issues
lizmat you're saying I should havndle that in BUILD ? 20:30
jnthn lizmat: Yes, but that has already been computed
lizmat of the ContainerDescriptor
ssutch masak, jnthn: yosemite, in california, US
jnthn lizmat: No, I'm saying that you should already have the correct thing to pass when calling install_lexical_container.
lizmat: sorry
lizmat: No, I'm saying that you should already have the correct thing to pass when calling create_container_descriptor
TimToady_ iow, we shouldn't have places where objects are created without the of type already
lizmat well, if I just pass :default($of)
I get "$ perl6 -e 'my $a=1; $a=Nil; say $a'" saying Nil instead of Any 20:31
sorear ssutch: o/ CAfolk
lizmat it works fine for typed containers, but not for untyped ones: in that case, $of appears to be Mu rather than Any 20:32
sorear ssutch: north or south? any chance of dragging you to sandiego.pm?
jnthn lizmat: Moment, lemme find the bit of code we need to look at
ssutch sorear: SF, but yeah maybe, i'd like to get to SD again
jnthn lizmat: In sub declare_variable in Actions.pm
TimToady_ btw, moving Nil outside of Any in niecza breaks 26 tests; didn't do it right to decide which 26 it broke though...
jnthn There are these two lines:
my %cont_info := container_type_info($/, $sigil, $*OFTYPE ?? [$*OFTYPE.ast] !! [], $shape); 20:33
my $descriptor := $*W.create_container_descriptor(%cont_info<value_type>, 1, $name);
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jnthn that %conf_info contains the key default_value, which is what you want to pass co create_container_descriptor 20:33
*to
TimToady_ also note that if Nil means "no argument", we can't use === Nil to test Nilness
lizmat TimToady: no argument there :-) 20:34
jnthn sorear: Well, I've got some of the write barriers missing at the moment, but when I first added them Weird Things happened. So taking a step back and trying again :)
TimToady_ but =:= is also problematic when you want to say $x =:= Nil
jnthn sorear: This time with some more sanity checks. :)
TimToady_ so I think we really need a .is-Nil method or some such 20:35
lizmat ok, that means create_container_descriptor needs another (optional) parameter 20:36
jnthn lizmat: Yes; I thought we'd established that? :)
lizmat then I must have misread you
ok, going ahead with thah
that
jnthn Oh :) 20:37
OK. Well, I think it can default to $of. $default = $of. And then pass it in the places we know better :)
lizmat indeed 20:38
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TimToady_ or make defined return Nil for Nil instead of True/False, and then we can test it with .defined.defined :) 20:40
or distinguish Nil the singleton value from Nilness the role, so ~~ Nilness works 20:42
(that one's a serious suggestion)
Nillity?
or make nil the value, and Nil the type 20:43
lizmat Nihil?
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TimToady_ :) 20:43
geekosaur was trying to type Nihily when something stole focus///
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TimToady_ the advantage of using a type rather than a method is that we'd have to define the method in Mu to return False for everything, plus people might be tempted to override it 20:44
masak prefers 'nil' the value and 'Nil' the type so far
TimToady_ whereas a .does test is pretty static 20:45
lizmat so would undefine() we equivalent to x = nil or x = Nil ? 20:46
TimToady_ the first
lizmat that would be a spec change then, as it is specced to be x = Nil 20:48
TimToady_ right
lizmat would we need a type Nil then ? 20:49
TimToady_ yes, to do things like ~~ Nil
lizmat I guess we do, because nil would be of type Nil, right?
right
lue
.oO(my Nil \nada;)
TimToady_ or .what === Nil
er .WHAT
hmm, I seem to have a tail 20:51
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TimToady that's better 20:51
one argument against nil the value is that Nil stands out more visually 20:52
but I don't suppose that's a strong argument 20:53
lizmat (running spectest) 20:54
TimToady we also have various enums that have uppercase values, like True
a minor consideration is that switching Nil the type/value to Nil the value only is much easier than switching to nil the value
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lue In the case of True/False (and possibly nil), I think of those as not holding much more information than a type object, so their type-like capitalization is fine. 20:56
TimToady so I'm more inclined to put Nil into the "singleton enum" camp, and come up with a name for the class and/or role
lue would suggest the type be named Undef were he feeling bolder 20:57
FROGGS I like Nil the value... it doesnt feel like a type anyway. True/False is of type Bool, but Nil what is Nil? 20:58
TimToady then, of course, everyone will wonder why the value isn't 'undef'...
if $x.does(Nothing)
lizmat especially since undefine() assigns that value :-)
sorear jnthn: I see 20:59
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lue I think I like Nothing as the type name. .oO(my @data is Nothing;) 21:02
(alternatively, remembering Mu means everything, Nil's type could be Um) 21:03
pmurias rakudo: Foo::sayfoo();module Foo { my $foo=123;our sub sayfoo {say $foo} };Foo::sayfoo() 21:04
TimToady I was thinking we'd reserve Um for the bottom type, if we ever get one :)
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«(Any)␤123␤»
pmurias TimToady: ^^ have you considered if code like that is something we should allow?
TimToady since Nil means something that isn't there that should be, maybe we should name the type Bummer
$x ~~ Bummer
FROGGS .oO( $x ~~ Money ) 21:05
lizmat jnthn: could it be that " %info<default_value> := $*W.find_symbol(['Any']);" fails ? 21:06
TimToady pmurias: looks like it works correctly to me, and I see no reason to disallow it
if we did rename Nil, I'd be tempted to make it oops and Oops :) 21:07
lue
.oO(What's the most derived type you could possibly have in Perl 6? Um...)
lizmat TimToady: but $foo is assigned before the first call to sayfoo?
TimToady no, it's not 21:08
package guts are executed inline
jnthn lizmat: Very unlikely.
lizmat .oO ( Um = Unaccompanied Minor )
geekosaur unfortunate mishap 21:09
lue $x ~~ Whoops
TimToady Um is of type Err :)
then we derive failure from it too 21:10
FROGGS I'd say Ohh is of type Err too
lue class Um is Err { }; class Human is Err { };
TimToady class Moo is Bovine {} 21:11
geekosaur was trying to decide whether that was to be parsed err as in erroneous, or err as in the schwa-ish vocalization
:)
TimToady geekosaur: what makes you think it was intended as "or" rather than "and"?
geekosaur ...or indeed that 21:12
(which I was typing rather more verbosely when you said that)
lizmat .oO ( unfortunate mishap: what a way to describe your offspring ) 21:13
lue Err I don't think is a good choice, too many people might mistake it as a verb. How's about Hmm ?
masak yes, "Bummer" is the clear winner for a name for a bottom type :)
geekosaur $x ~~ Wat 21:14
lue likes Um for the (theoretical) most-derived type. 21:17
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lue Since Nil is what Perl 6 gives you as a consolation prize if what was supposed to be here isn't, maybe the type should be Sorry. 21:18
TimToady sorry 21:19
maybe Nil and Failure are derived from Bogus 21:22
I kinda like ~~ Bogus 21:23
lue we would need an C<is_totally> synonym for C<is> then. my class Foo is_totally Bogus { ... } :) 21:26
dalek : 4596875 | (Tobias Leich)++ | t/test.pl:
hide warning for undefined third arg of is()
 21:27
: 2cf7715 | (Tobias Leich)++ | lib/Perl5/Actions.nqp:
implicit param in blocks, like in grep
: 02219af | (Tobias Leich)++ | lib/Perl5/Grammar.nqp:
closures dont get implicit $_ as iterator
: e86dd41 | (Tobias Leich)++ | / (2 files):
refactor pack/unpack a "bit", add some directives
TimToady 'course, if the type is Bogus, maybe the particle has to be a bogon 21:28
but that's a bit long
we were trying for something shorter than undef
dalek kudo/nom: 6c4c901 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/Perl6/World.nqp:
Make $a=Nil work
 21:29
kudo/nom: 677e0ed | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
Make Nil work for typed containers, alas not for untyped containers

Suggestions welcome.
TimToady all containers are typed, even if the user doesn't think so 21:30
lizmat ok, without explicit type definition
:-)
lue You could remove the u and have the n mean "not" ^U How about No, or Oops, or Um, or Nothing, or ... 21:33
benabik my \Nil is Nothing;
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TimToady more like my \Nil = Nothing.new; 21:35
benabik hah.
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TimToady or constant Nil = Nothing.new; 21:35
21:35 PacoAir left
lue my class Act { has Nothing $to-lose; } 21:35
lizmat jnthn: I found the problem: in rakudo_scalar_store we only do the default assignment if the typecheck fails 21:38
if the typecheck doesn't fail, we do not test for Nil, and thus we never replace it with the default value before putting it into the container 21:39
so the only way to fix this, is to check for Nil for *every* rakudo_scalar_store action
masak r: my @a; say @a[3] 21:41
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«(Any)␤»
masak r: my @a; say @a[0..3]
camelia rakudo 8a76ba: OUTPUT«(Any) (Any) (Any) (Any)␤»
sorear aren't untyped containers Any/
masak how do I produce a Nil in the rhs, apart from writing it literally?
sorear: yes. 21:42
sorear isn't Nil outside Any?
lizmat masak,sorear: this is cm/parrot/guts/container.c
*vm
the implementation so far was base on the typecheck failing when assigning Nil to (x) 21:44
based
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lizmat after a fail, the value to be assigned would be checked for Nilness, and if so, replaced by the default value 21:45
jnthn ah...
Yeah, I guess that won't cut it :/
lizmat spectesting now with *first* a check for Nilness, and *then* a typecheck if it was not Nil
$ perl6 -e 'my $a; say $a; $a=Nil; say $a'
(Any)
better: $ perl6 -e 'my $a=1; say $a; $a=Nil; say $a' 21:46
1
(Any)
$ perl6 -e 'my Int $a=1; say $a; $a=Nil; say $a'
1
(Int)
masak \o/ 21:47
lizmat (seeing some test failures ;-( ) 21:48
does this ring a bell? "sh: mono: command not found" 21:50
mono??? 21:51
in parakudo?
jnthn what?
sorear I think you managed to confuse Test/Util.pm into thinking it's running on niecza 21:52
lizmat oddly enough, it generates rakudo.parrot fudged files
quite a few tests fail :-( 21:53
.oO( trying to get rakudo.jvm 95%+ ;-)
 21:54
several TODO's passed as well, so it is not all bad
diakopter sorear: Hi :D 21:55
lizmat: howdy
jnthn: ahoy
lizmat diakopter: hoi!
jnthn hi diakopter
sorear o/ 21:56
masak diakopter! \o/
lizmat jnthn: does ->type_check have some side effects?
jnthn lizmat: Hopefully not
lizmat this is the diff: gist.github.com/lizmat/5930464 21:57
jnthn argh, make bootstrap-files in NQP is broken 21:59
lizmat did I break something? 22:00
jnthn lizmat: no, that ain't you ;) 22:01
lizmat *phew*
jnthn lizmat: The diff doesn't look wrong at first glance
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sorear jnthn: what needs to be bootstrapped? 22:04
lizmat something seriously broken with the patch to always check for Nil: 22:05
$ perl6 -e 'say $*EXECUTABLE_NAME; say $*EXECUTABLE_NAME ~~ m:i/niecza/'
perl6
True
*sigh*
sorear jnthn: and can we develop something that will reduce the need to bootstrap? 'cause I'm not fond of bloating the repo >_>
jnthn sorear: Me either, but a premature opt I did in the Cursor role is causing some...fun :/ 22:08
It actually breaks our ability to do parsing in different threads too, once we get them... 22:09
lizmat jnthn: I guess somewhere in the regex engine, Nil is being returned and it gets Any in there or something
jnthn lizmat: Probably not in the regex engine itself, but somewhere in one of the regex related bits of code, probably
lizmat: We may be relying in some places on being able to keep Nil in a scalar. 22:10
sorear: Will look at it some more tomorrow, anyways...
sorear we use Nil for not present captures, right? 22:11
jnthn: bootstrap-files, or the Cursor thign?
pmurias would github releases be suitable for keeping the binary version for bootstraping ? (If we want to avoid bloating the repo) ;)
jnthn sorear: Well, I need bootstrap-files to verify the Cursor thing is causing the issue I believe it is... 22:12
sorear: bootstrap-files doesn't look hard to fix, though...
Just class/jar confusion.
sorear jnthn: curious what the cursor thing is. are you saying you want me to fiddle with bootstrap-files? 22:18
jnthn sorear: No, I can fix it, just too tired to do it today. 22:19
sorear: The thing is that !cursor_start_all returns an array of things.
sorear: And a single, shared, my @start_result; was declared outside of the method. 22:20
Which is bad for threading, but it turns out that it's bad in another way too
masak 'night, #perl6
jnthn Since when a role is serialized, its outer context is serialized, that array too gets serialized...
sorear reposession eh?
lizmat night masak!
jnthn Meaning that we end up trying to repossess it when parsing, when I put the wb into bindpos... 22:21
But yeah, it clearly would break doing any kind of parsing (of perl 6 or user grammars) on different threads.
The problem we're getting showing up in Rakudo is that setting compilation repossesses some meta-objects created in BOOTSTRAP 22:23
A bunch, if not all, of the "nominal type check failed" errors happen because that isn't getting caught
lizmat gnight #perl6! 22:24
jnthn So we lose the fact that some classes gained extra roles, for example.
'night, lizmat
augment Hash { } immediately shows it up, by re-generating the type check cache, which is then built out of an incomplete roles list.
So yeah, ugh. :)
sorear Isn't reposession supposed to handle that? 22:26
the setting repossesses the stables
jnthn Yes, the problem is that repossession isn't being triggered.
Or rather, isn't being triggered in all the places it should be.
sorear the array in NQPCursorRole causes reposession to not be triggered? o_O
jnthn Currently it's not triggered 22:27
22:27 raiph joined
jnthn When I make it be triggered, we start trying to repossess the array. 22:27
sorear is probably keeping jnthn up past his bedtime D:
jnthn That's when I noticed something was wrong
sorear jnthn: repossessing the array sounds harmless though
jnthn Nah, not going to sleep just yet...got an email to answer first...
sorear since we currently ignore reposession conflicts
jnthn Right, but it's rather inefficient... 22:28
My problem really, though, is not that (afaik). It's that *something* getting repossessed is causing invalid class files to be generated. O.O
I didn't get to the bottom of that yet, I just found this issue along the way, and realized it's (a) problematic anyway, and (b) making it harder for me to get to the bottom of the real problem. 22:29
sorear let me guess, it manifests as a "ClassFormatError: you have two methods named qb_22(LCompilationUnit;LThreadContext;LCallSiteDescriptor;[LObject;)V, doofus" ? 22:30
jnthn No.
Lemme get it, it's really weird 22:31
sorear oh interesting
because I've seen the duplicate method ClassFormatError, and decided it was probably related to reposession but didn't investigate further
jnthn Oh, I haven't figured that out yet, but my gut feeling was that the same QAST::Block is ending up in the tree in two places. 22:32
hah, here we go
sorear also a plausible interpretation
jnthn Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ClassFormatError: Unknown constant tag 100
in class file nqp
sorear WAT 22:33
jnthn It happens when it tries to run the generated NQP from stage 1.
Yes, WAT indeed!!
sorear that's like um
jnthn Right. :/
sorear "asm shouldn't even be capable of generating a class with an unparsable constant pool"
semantically invalid, sure. but surely all output from ASM should conform to the context-free grammar of a class file 22:34
jnthn Can't even disassemble the thing with javap -c
Gives same kinda thing
Error: error while reading constant pool for src\stage1\nqp.class: unexpected t
ag at #9552: 100
sorear If you send me the class or the patch I can poke at it 22:35
22:35 FROGGS left
jnthn sorear: Maybe if I push a branch its' easier than patches? 22:36
dalek p/repo-bug: fef0565 | jnthn++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/ (3 files):
Get serialized object ownership model in place.

For historical reasons, some things are not handled as direct objects, but rather as special cases in the serializer. This gets support for that handling in place, in hope of using it to resolve some of the remaining serialization/repossession issues.		 22:38
p/repo-bug: 837aed8 | jnthn++ | src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/runtime/Ops.java:
Add missing repossession barriers.

Makes the build explode by generating an invalid class file.
sorear jnthn: wfm
jnthn sorear: Just build that branch, it should explode the way I said.
sorear rep(r)o-bug 22:40
:D
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sorear Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ClassFormatError: Unknown constant tag 100 in class file nqp 22:42
sorear starts poking at nqp.class with hexedit 22:43
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jnthn sorear++ 22:43
This is either gonna be awful or hilarious... 22:44
sorear here's my methodology: bisect the file location of the corruption by introducing garbage and seeing whether javap sees the old error or the new one 22:45
jnthn I dunno if the offset javap gives is of any help? 22:46
sorear What is a string like '$!regexsub'~"\x[08]"~'$_' used for? 22:48
jnthn Um 22:51
08? hm
jnthn fails to guess :S
At first I wondered if it was the list of lexical names but that wouldn't have a $!foo (attribute) name in it... 22:52
sorear OH 22:53
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sorear jnthn: At the failing offset in nqp.class there is a copy of src/stage1/gen/NQP.nqp as a string constant 22:56
jnthn: it's larger than 65536 bytes, so the length is stored incorrectly and the parser getws confused 22:57
jnthn huh, I thought QAST::SVal was smart about that...
Darn, that means we repossessed a cursor somewhere...
which is...wtf... 22:58
oh...
@cursor_start will end up containing a cursor, of course!
And then when it repossess it...yeah.
sorear++ 22:59
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sorear jnthn: I'm not sure what's up with strings not being split 23:17
It might be a stage0-specific bug
jnthn sorear: If stage0 pre-dates the splitting logic, maybe...
I've no idea on heir relative ages
*hair
wtf
*their
sorear jnthn: ooh 23:23
nqp-jvm sorear$ perl -MEncode -CSDL -E 'undef $/; $x=<STDIN>; say ((length Encode::encode_utf8 substr($x,0,65535)) % 65536)' < src/stage1/gen/NQP.nqp
34
the first 65535 *characters* of NQP.nqp produce 0x10022 bytes of utf8-encoded text
this nicely dovetails with the "00 22" I saw in the classfile 23:24
jnthn sorear: oh...
sorear (followed by way more than 34 bytes of text)
seems we're splitting by characters instead of bytes
jnthn d'oh
sorear works fine for giant base64 strings though :p
jnthn I think 'cus I originally did it to cope with the serialization blob, which of ocurse is base64, where they match... :P 23:25
hah!
I'm still rather bemused it produced invalid bytecode file rather than whining about string size...
sorear I'm slowly coming to expect the worst of asm for error checking 23:26
jnthn I remember an error about string length 23:27
I'm wondering if it was before the BCEL -> asm switch...
sorear the quick annd dirty fix is to limit string chunks to 21845 nqp::chars units 23:31
jnthn *nod*
sorear I wonder if the logic should be pushed down a level or two, to JAST::PushSC or .push_sc
jnthn Hm, we could actually UTF-8 encode it and check it more carefully... 23:32
sorear because currently we use JAST::PushSC in a lot of places, bypassing the split code entirely...
jnthn +1
sorear jnthn: fiddly (and slow! in nqp) logic required to not split in the middle of characters
maybe not too slow since it would only be checking breakpoints, not every character 23:33
jnthn I meant utf8-encode it in JAST -> bytecode compiler
(was agreeing with pushing it down a level)
sorear people probably shouldn't be using 100kb method names, but we shouldn't generate invalid bytecode for them either :)
ok.
I can do that.
also run/shell stuff
jnthn OK...going with -D... in the runner for the executable name? 23:34
sorear Yes 23:35
jnthn ok, wfm :)
sorear probably going to do something crazy like base64 the path so I don't need to think about quoting rules in the shell du jour
jnthn heh, I'd thought of base64-ing it, then was like, "nooo, sorear will be like, 'jnthn, why u base64 all the things?'" :D 23:36
.oO( If two people think of it, it's not crazy, right? )
sorear Mass hallucination? 23:38
jnthn That's what happens when you take drugs in a church... 23:40
OK, sleep time...
Happy hacking
o/
23:50 BenGoldberg left
colomon arnsholt: If the bug had been non-weird, I'd probably have figured it out myself. ;) 23:58

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